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homage to Rise Up Singing

DigiTrad:
NOT IN THE BOOK


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WFDU - Ron Olesko 02 Jan 09 - 08:10 PM
Deckman 02 Jan 09 - 07:51 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 02 Jan 09 - 07:34 PM
Don Firth 02 Jan 09 - 05:38 PM
Don Firth 02 Jan 09 - 05:35 PM
Deckman 02 Jan 09 - 05:19 PM
Jack Campin 02 Jan 09 - 03:38 PM
M.Ted 02 Jan 09 - 03:02 PM
Stringsinger 02 Jan 09 - 01:43 PM
Don Firth 02 Jan 09 - 01:37 PM
Stewart 02 Jan 09 - 01:16 PM
M.Ted 02 Jan 09 - 12:58 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 02 Jan 09 - 12:58 PM
Don Firth 02 Jan 09 - 12:34 PM
mg 02 Jan 09 - 11:58 AM
M.Ted 02 Jan 09 - 03:37 AM
Deckman 02 Jan 09 - 12:43 AM
Don Firth 01 Jan 09 - 11:16 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 01 Jan 09 - 08:11 PM
mg 01 Jan 09 - 07:05 PM
astro 01 Jan 09 - 06:52 PM
Ron Davies 01 Jan 09 - 06:21 PM
M.Ted 01 Jan 09 - 06:00 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 01 Jan 09 - 05:57 PM
Leadfingers 01 Jan 09 - 05:41 PM
Leadfingers 01 Jan 09 - 05:41 PM
Jack Campin 01 Jan 09 - 05:23 PM
M.Ted 01 Jan 09 - 05:04 PM
M.Ted 01 Jan 09 - 04:54 PM
Tootler 01 Jan 09 - 02:53 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 01 Jan 09 - 02:25 PM
Ron Davies 01 Jan 09 - 02:03 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 01 Jan 09 - 01:57 PM
Ron Davies 01 Jan 09 - 01:21 PM
Ref 01 Jan 09 - 01:15 PM
Ron Davies 01 Jan 09 - 12:49 PM
Patrick_Costello 01 Jan 09 - 07:33 AM
Jack Campin 01 Jan 09 - 07:19 AM
Barry Finn 31 Dec 08 - 11:56 PM
Don Firth 31 Dec 08 - 11:52 PM
Barry Finn 31 Dec 08 - 11:43 PM
Deckman 31 Dec 08 - 08:54 PM
Joe Offer 31 Dec 08 - 08:46 PM
Don Firth 31 Dec 08 - 07:53 PM
Deckman 31 Dec 08 - 07:06 PM
Ref 31 Dec 08 - 06:42 PM
Joe_F 31 Dec 08 - 05:48 PM
Stringsinger 31 Dec 08 - 03:26 PM
Don Firth 31 Dec 08 - 02:05 PM
astro 31 Dec 08 - 01:11 PM
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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 08:10 PM

True - but 100 years ago people were not even writing down songs! That was the realm of collectors!


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Deckman
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 07:51 PM

I certainly agree that we've had a revolution in communication. At the same time, I'm often amused at how frequantly I find myself hunkered down in some public hall, using a folding theatre chair as a table, and either scribbling out song words for someone, or receiving song words from someone.

The tradition keeps moving on ... ever changing, yet moving on just the same. bob


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 07:34 PM

"Or if I learn a song from someone in person, I get the words from them (they write me out a copy or dictate them to me) and then they sing me through the tune until I have it securely in my ear. I learned a lot of songs from Walt Robertson and others this way. Or they have learned songs from me this way.

This is an important part of the "folk process." Learning songs from records is the folk process one step removed."

Your mention of the "folk process" prompted me to read a passage from Pete Seeger's book "The Incompleat Folksinger". In a section describing "the folk process" he referred to it as a stream in motion- you cannot truly examine a brook by "freezing" it or taking a pail of water - you have to watch the entire stream to see where and how it flows if you wish to build a bridge across it.

Pete also talked about how a play was different in Shakespeare's time from what we consider a play today. He talked about television and radio and how they influence our views - "if a sophisticated urbanite tries to consciously reject these influences, he usually ends up looking and sounding more precious and effected than if he'd gone ahead and been normally jazzy".

I've always felt that the "oral transmission" part of the definitition is misleading and not fully recognizing the "stream". We've had a huge communications revolution in the last 100 years that has become part of our lifestyle and it effects our traditions.

Memory is a great thing, but memory is a reflection of our environment.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 05:38 PM

Yup! Seven lovely, charming ladies. No books necessary. All from memory!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 05:35 PM

In a post on December 31st, I said I would do a little blurb on how to memorize songs for those who don't know how to go about it. At least this is the way I do it.

Learning—memorizing—songs:

Usually, what attracts me to a song in the first place is hearing it. I have learned a few songs straight from song books (I can read dots), but very few indeed. Usually this happens when I read the words in, say, Lomax's Folk Songs of North America, they appeal to me for some reason, then I dope out the melody and proceed to learn the song.

But my usual method is to learn them from records. I play the record repeatedly while I scribble down the words. This takes several playings. I try to write down the first line of each verse the first time through, the second line the second time through, and so on. By the time I have the words written down, the tune is pretty well lodged in my ear.

Or if I learn a song from someone in person, I get the words from them (they write me out a copy or dictate them to me) and then they sing me through the tune until I have it securely in my ear. I learned a lot of songs from Walt Robertson and others this way. Or they have learned songs from me this way.

This is an important part of the "folk process." Learning songs from records is the folk process one step removed.

What I do then (and not necessarily in the same sequence each time) is "vocalize" the tune:   sing it through on one vowel ("ah" or "oh"), or just hum it, until I'm sure I have it. At the same time, I set the key for my voice. I carry one of those round "Master Key Chromatic Pitch Instruments" made by the Wm. Kratt Co. around with me (chromatic pitch pipe) – CLICKY #1 – and as I experiment with the tune and find my comfortable range, I check with the pitch pipe to see where I am, then figure out what key is most comfortable for my voice.

Way back, I would carry the words I had copied down around with me, folded up in a shirt pocket. I'd try to sing the song in my head (sometimes aloud, if I was alone), going as far as I could, then when I got stuck, pull out the sheet and look at it, then continue until I got stuck again. About the fourteenth or fifteenth song I learned that way was twenty-seven verses of adultery, blood, and gore:   "Little Mattie Groves."

I found that one thing that tended to work reasonably well was putting the subconscious on the job. While lying in bed, just before going to sleep, I would sing the song in my head, again going as far as I could. If I got stuck, I would skip to the next verse I remembered. I'd do this maybe a couple two or three times before I drifted off to sleep. Sometimes in the morning, it was all there. Or I knew what lines I needed to work on.

I can learn a new song in two or three days by following this procedure. Then, what I need to do is sing it over and over until it is thoroughly filed in my memory.

Some of the first songs I learned ("Greensleeves," "Blue Mountain Lake," "Drill, Ye Tarriers," "High Barbaree," "The Golden Vanity") I will never forget, even if I haven't sung some of them for years.

While all this is going on, I pull out the guitar and work out the accompaniment. Chords first. The basic, necessary chords. I sing the song (or at least vocalize the tune), strumming the chords of key I now know fits my voice. When I have the essential chord changes worked out, if the song seems to call for it, I start playing with alternate chord possibilities ("Okay, I'm three measures on a C major there. How would it sound to stick an A minor in there before going to the F?"). Experiment. At first I just strum chords. Once I have them set, I tinker with right hand patterns, beginning with a simple "Burl Ives basic," then try various picking patterns. Arpeggio? What kind? Mix it up? "Lullaby lick?" Alternate bass finger-picking? Or would it be better just to stick with "Burl Ives basic?" Then maybe work out bass runs, a little between-verse bit of the tune, and so on, depending on what seems appropriate to song itself.

Remembering that an accompaniment that's too flashy can distract and detract from the song itself. Not good!

By the way, I know all the chord families and such (a couple years of music theory classes), but for anyone who might need some help, this gadget would probably prove quite useful:    CLICKY #2.

Then—the original word sheet that I copied from the record goes into a file. These days, I type in into the computer. First verse and chorus double-spaced with chord symbols above the appropriate words, the rest single-spaced (usually 12 point Georgia, which I find easy to read), with notes about the song (Child ballad? Where did it come from and what is it about, when and where I first heard it and learned it, what song books or records I have that it's on, etc.) in Georgia 11 point type, at the bottom if there's room or on the back if not. If the song is long, a second page of course—or if the lines are short, I might do two columns.

I keep the file on the computer (backed up, of course), print out a copy, three-hole punch it, and put it into a three-ring binder.

Which I use for reference or to refresh my memory when needed—and which I leave at home.

By the way, once I have a song learned, I record it a few times (cassettes awhile back, but now onto a ZOOM H2 digital recorder, which I then download into the computer) and play it back for and self-criticism and analysis.

Learning songs involves exerting enough effort to engage a few brain cells. It doesn't take that much time, and it ain't that hard. And you don't have to be a member of the idle rich. And once you've got it, you may need to refresh your occasionally (that's what the three-ring binder sitting on your desk or in your bookcase is for), but you've got it.

Bon appetite.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Deckman
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 05:19 PM

DON ... Seven wimmen and YOU!!!! I'll bet you didn't any any book either! Bob


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 03:38 PM

Just for the edification of any leftpondians who might be curious:

We don't have RUS in the UK, but we do have some widely used songbooks. In Scotland the ones you see most often are:

- The Scots Folksinger (ed. Norman Buchan and somebody else)
- Soodlum's Irish Ballads (4 booklets)
- Songs and Ballads Popular in Ireland (3 or 4 booklets)

The first two are fine and I've used them myself. I've once seen Cathal McConnell singing out of the last one. Personally I don't have any use for it.

Maybe the Penguin Book of English Folksongs is about as popular south of the border.

But NOBODY sings in chorus to any of these, nor would you ever expect to see more than one copy open at a time. If people have books with them, nearly always they'll be folders of personal selections.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: M.Ted
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 03:02 PM

I like your approach, Frank-- those half-forgotten songs from the radio are often the best--


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Stringsinger
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 01:43 PM

I think it's a good idea to have existing singing communities print up their own song lyrics in a book form. It doesn't have to be "pro".

Each singing group likes its own songs. RUS serves as a model.

I also think it would be useful to have songs categorized. Not all folks like to sing just
folk songs. (Whatever they are).

Where Mary and I sing every Thursday, they like a variety of songs. Many remember songs from the past that they used to hear on the radio.

Sometimes a conversation will trigger a song. We go into it. Other times, we look at
lyrics for reference on some songs.

When people know how to contribute to a singing session, it doesn't matter whether
there are song books or not.

Frank Hamilton


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 01:37 PM

OY!

I sure wish I could have been there, Stew!

We had our Christmas party on New Years Day, postponed because most of our guests couldn't make it on Christmas because they were snowed in. We ate like little piggies and had much good conversation (seven women and me!)

But it looks like I missed a great song fest!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Stewart
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 01:16 PM

Hi Mary, I hope to see you at Rainy Camp. Maybe we can get together with a few others and sing some songs without books or fluorescent lights.

We just had our annual New Year's Day music open house yesterday. About two dozen people, some musicians, some not. We had a great music circle with singers, listeners, and instruments including guitars, fiddles and a hammered dulcimer. We first went around the circle with whoever wanted to sing or play, some did, some didn't. Then it sort of opened up to whoever wanted to sing or play next because they had something to add to the mix. And it was a mix of songs, some solo, some with the whole group singing and instruments playing, and some just instrumental tunes. And not a book in sight.

Then at one point Bob (Deckman) got up and started to rehearse everyone in a simple, but yet complex song. First he got the bass line going with a repetitive verse. Then the others going with a complementary repeating verse and melody. Then everyone together. And it was fantastic - everyone was singing, musicians and non-musicians, singers and non-singers all together, and the whole room resounded in melody, harmony, and verse. Afterwords I turned to Bob and said "wow, and we did that without any blue books!" Now that's what a music circle should be.

It was a great way to begin a new year.

Happy New Year everyone!

Cheers, S. in Seattle
make that Singing in Seattle


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: M.Ted
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 12:58 PM

I've always thought that "it" would come back, but I've come to realize that my "it" was a very personal piece of a fleeting moment in time.

A lot of the things I was interested in have come and gone again, in different forms, and at different times.

I was thinking that they'd all show up at once again, in the same forms, not realizing that, even if they did, I wouldn't be twenty years old anymore, so I wouldn't experience them the same way.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 12:58 PM

Mark Twain is still alive??????


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 12:34 PM

Mary's right again.

I believe it was Mark Twain who said, "The rumors of my death are greatly exaggerated."

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: mg
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 11:58 AM

It is all that people who prefer that style are going to get because others are not going to be there. And hopefully the ones that are there will enjoy themselves and prosper. But there will be a few dairymaids here and a few rugby stars there and there will be little enclaves of people who remember and one day it will come back...mg


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: M.Ted
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 03:37 AM

I'll say it again, in even simpler language: folk music isn't attracting large numbers of talented, motivated people these days.

Times and tastes are different, and folk music is the road less travelled(which kind of makes one wonder if it really is "the people's music" after all), and it is pretty easy to feel like the last straggler on the road.

The folks who do show up, books in hand, equipped with nothing more than a desire to sing are all you're going to get. Sorry if you're better and more experienced than they are, sorry if you prefer to sing with better singers--sorry if they want to use a book, and you don't want them to.

Bottom line is, it isn't the books, it's just the way things work.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Deckman
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 12:43 AM

Nice ballad Don ... what key was it in? Bob


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 11:16 PM

C'mon, folks, let's not descend to the level of calling each other "pompous performers" and "jerks" and generally spitting at each other like pre-schoolers having a snit-fit.

Although slightly convoluted, Mary (mg) says a lot of good things just above. I first met Mary in the very early Seattle Song Circle meetings. And I like to hear Mary sing. Solo. She knows a lot of good songs and she sings them well.

####

An alternative fable:

Richard I, on his way back to England from the Third Crusade, is captured and held for ransom. He sits in a dungeon cell in despair. Suddenly, he hears a familiar voice outside the barred window. It is the voice of Blondel, the minstrel, singing a familiar song. Richard's heart beats faster. His friends are looking for him, so they can ransom him and he can return home to England! Hope bursts forth!

Blondel sings the first verse of a song that he and Richard often sang together, then he stops and waits. He waits for Richard to sing the second verse, the way they always do with this song. This is a message! If he hears a response, he will know for certain where Richard is being held and can carry the news to England.

But Richard doesn't have his copy of RUS with him! It was taken from him, along with his sword. He doesn't know the next verse without looking in the book!

Hearing nothing but the wind soughing through the trees, Blondel sighs and passes on, to continue his quest.

Richard's heart sinks into despair. And history is changed forever.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 08:11 PM

"So sorry, Ron O, that you can't come up with any evidence that RUS hymn sings in folk societies build community."

Oh Ron, you are such as sorry case.   Just read some of the comments from people like Janie and you will find your precious "evidence."


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: mg
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 07:05 PM

Hi..I am here at least for this thread and then will probably depart again, still disgusted over what I saw here a couple of months ago. Anyway, yes, it ruins ongoing song circles...add to that music camps. And I think the blame should mostly go to people who did not speak up right away, or put something in writing in newsletters, web sites etc, telling people that this ongoing group wants to do it this way, and setting up perhaps another parallel group on the same night that prefers to do it differently.

I think that group 1, which does not like the books, and I am a charter member, likes what good music sounds like. It is an auditory thing. Group two, which likes the books, either can not hear exactly, or has no history of hearing good music so they do not know, or other factors are more important, such as the sense of community they feel, the chance to get a turn (which really seems to drive a lot of people), the emotional high or low the get from the song, the historical aspects of it etc. But I truly think sound is not a high priority. The two groups are incompatible period, so quit beating around the bush and spending too much time being polite as you see the music being ruined, even as the other factors might very well be increasing. Help them set up their own group, do it however they like it, advertise it that way, tell them not to change just because some tells them soemthing else sounds better but refer them to the other group.

Same in camps. Oh the endless, monotonous song circles you can get these days. 80 people..one by one by one...singing essentially a solo. I counted how many songs I didn't want to hear before I got to a good one recently at a camp..it was in the dozens. I do not have the time, the energy, the money, the transportation, to participate in something like that. If it was next door...would I go to a RUS sing? Probably not. Definitely not more than 2 blocks away. Definitely not take a bus to one. Definitely not take a plane to one as a recetnly did, although it was not dominated by them, but they were there.

I do guirella??? tactics. I peak in the door. If they are there I am not. I would rather find two people who feel the same way and sing in a closet or a bathroom or wherever. I also hate the flourescent lights at some of these places, especially camps, and I find a direct correlation between blue books and inability to turn off a flourescent light. Also, direct correlation between liking to rigidly, endlessly into the night, take turns. So I just try for an alternative song circle with no turns, free for all, devil take the hindmost. Generally, you get the best music. it is not fair or democratic, but it sounds prettier. Lots of people do not seem to care if it sounds pretty or not and they seem happy, and I am glad to oblige them, doing the endless circle.

If I had opportunities every night of the week like people in Seattle or Portland do, and transportation that would allow me to get there (and leave) easily, it would be less of a cost/benefit analaysis and I would take more chances. But I can't and won't. Iw ould rather go to Safeway and read the movie magazines, which I do when I am in town.

I think if people are new to this, and have not heard the good singing that we are talking about, they won't understand and they are quite happy with what they have. That is great. Keep it, grow it, but don't bring down a good, long-standing group that knows what it is doing. That is what is not fair..when music is killed..not allowed to die a natural death, but killed for politeness sake.

And I personally do not understand why people have to sing all the words..they can hum, sing the choruses, etc. in the long-standing groups that prefer no group books (I always say individual papers or books OK, but no turn to page 37 and for God's sake, don't pass out extras..)In groups they ahve started or found that are compatible with their preferences, do it however you want. No one is going to come to your group (hopefully) and try to make you change it. But neither should you try to change ongoing ones, or ones that are set up in a special way. Like someone said, people who could sing in a great group way, quit coming. In camps they will sneak out to secret places and you won't know what you are missing. But I know what I am missing and I miss it and I think people should just be much more honest and direct about their preferences and set up basically separate groups...mg


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: astro
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 06:52 PM

As a newbie, I need to find a method that works for me to learn songs. I can't hear the words well enough from singers to get the songs. A book is useful for doing that, but with the idea that I want to learn and just sing without the book.

It seems that we need to be reasonable. For newbies (or not well learned), it is proper to be sensitive and pass the lead to a more experienced singer. It is not too disruptive for a few to have a book to refer to as we learn with the idea that as a song is learned we leave behind the use of a book (until the next new one). It would not be reasonable to expect that all songs would be sung from the book at any session. Too prohibitive for the session and to experienced singers. In that case, the newbie (people like me) needs to listen and take as big a part as possible to the singing and just enjoy.

If places like the Getaway prohibits newbies and their crutches then it is destined to die. I would like to go sometime, I would hate to think that people who attend would not like my presence.

I say let's keep a sense of humor and pure enjoyment of this life we share. No more "jerk" calling, but rather enjoy the presence of experienced singers and be excited for new singers coming along. Patience and understanding, if anything, should be shown during these times we are sharing.

Astro (a newbie)


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Ron Davies
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 06:21 PM

So sorry, Ron O, that you can't come up with any evidence that RUS hymn sings in folk societies build community.

Not that surprising, however: the evidence is all on the other side.

Far from "building community", RUS hymn sings in folk societies tend, it seems, rather towards civil war in those societies.    It tends to aggravate the split between people--all in the "folk community" -- actually willing to learn songs and those who are not.   It does take effort to learn songs; it does take willingness to make it a priority. For whatever reason, it may not be a high priority for some. Totally understandable.   But please don't expect those of us for whom it is a priority to be content with the travesty of a singaround which an RUS session presents.

And if you want evidence of RUS use at folk society gatherings being a serious cause of friction, rather than "building community" in folk societies, take, for instance, the response in this thread--or any other on RUS.

RUS "building community" in folk societies, is, as I said, a delusion fondly held by some--with no evidence to back it up.

Unless you actually have some.

Still waiting.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: M.Ted
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 06:00 PM

I think we'll see them soon. Perhaps someone already has one set up to read the words aloud, perhaps with a vocoder or some such thing, so that the boxes themselves could sing the songs--that would be something to be upset about!


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 05:57 PM

happy?? :)


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Leadfingers
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 05:41 PM

200


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Leadfingers
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 05:41 PM

Having 'The Words' IS OK for new songs , but kept as a reference - I dont lke to see ANYONE Singing at a book rather than to an audience !


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Jack Campin
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 05:23 PM

The only people I've seen singing from PDAs have been middle-aged. The first one was a few years ago.

Any sightings of one of those ebook-reader doodads at a singaround?


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: M.Ted
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 05:04 PM

Incidentally, I was one of those Philly folks, like Patrick Costello, who was very excited when Winds of the People originally appeared--it was hard to find lyrics then--

Now, we can look anything up on the internet, and I will not be surprised to see younger folks singing from their PDAs very soon. Not me though--I can't read anything that small.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: M.Ted
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 04:54 PM

Experienced singers and performers can learn songs pretty quickly, and they can also read lyric sheets and even musical scores in a way that raises the roof, or whatever you want.
Some of the classic recordings of "our" kind of music were made by people who were looking at the lyrics.

So forget all that stuff about the qualitative differences between booked and unbooked singing. Time to be honest and admit that it isn't about that.

This is about people who aren't experienced singers and performers, who can't learn songs quickly, who don't know the songs that "we" know, and who want to participate. And beyond that, it is about whether and how they should be included. And it is an important issue.

You can say that singing groups have been "taken over" by the RUS, or you can be a little more honest and say that the new people that have come in to the groups are not experienced singers, have had different interests and tastes than the older members, and RUS was a way to include them.

More truth here: every organization, be it singing, stamp collecting, chess playing, or whatever, loses members over time due to attrition--people move away, have family obligations, develop new interests--don't blame it all on the blue books--

One of those notorious 80/20 rules has to do with a healthy group/organization/community needing to be 80 percent old and 20 percent new.

It's pretty much true--if there are too many new people, the group loses it's direction, if there are too few, it gradually disappears. And more disappear than the other.

Bottom line here is that folk groups of all kinds are walking a tightrope risking either losing direction or disappearing with every step. It's a worthy discussion, and I don't think it's accidental that the folks who are here engaged have all contributed a lot to what we little folk scene that we have today.



















Not so with some of the other stuff


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Tootler
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 02:53 PM

I am from the UK and as two other UK posters have said, RUS is not widely known here - or at least it is just one of many song books available.

It is not common in the UK to see published books at singarounds (which seem to our equivalent of your song circles) but personal song folders are common. I have come across some very good singers who feel the need to have the words to hand and I would rather hear them sing than be rigid about whether or not the words should be learnt.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 02:25 PM

Come off it Ron. Don't start this "let's have some evidence" crap. This isn't a high school debate team!!

We all know that we are dealing with OPINIONS - yours included. None of us have hard facts, but we have experience. Calling an opinon "delusional" is more than just criticism - it is a vain attempt to make your opinion hold more weight than the opinion of others. If you wish to discuss points of your opinion, go right ahead - but don't try these personal attacks at those who disagree with you.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Ron Davies
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 02:03 PM

Some have alleged that RUS hymn sings in folklore societies "build community". I believe this is a delusion. If it is not, let's have some evidence--which is, by the way, not the same as more oblique criticism.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 01:57 PM

There is no reason to use words like "jerks" or to consider people with a different opininon as being "delusional". Shameful. Perhaps the writers need to take a look at their own perspectives and how others are viewing them.

There is no single answer to this question about using or not using a book. There are problems when people judge others and expect that their protocol should reign supreme. There is enough evidence on this single thread to indicate that sessions can work with books and that INDIVIDUALS can experience a great satisfaction and sing on a different level when they no longer require a book. It does not mean that a book is giving that particular singer a false perception.

I think it is time to lighten up and not let our passions dictate our ability to reason and think about people other than ourselves.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Ron Davies
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 01:21 PM

Again I say: different strokes for different folks.

If you can't accept that, then, in your search for "jerks", please start with the mirror.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Ref
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 01:15 PM

I'd rather be with a group of people and hear someone say "Let's try Such-and-such on page 37" and get the whole group singing and trying harmonies, than sit silent while one pompous "performer" after another drones on with some partly remembered ballad.

Now, I warrant some of you'll be offended by that characterization. Try looking at it through someone else's eyes. These "NO BOOKS, EVER!" rants don't sound like the words of reasonable people. They sound like the words of "jerks."


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Ron Davies
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 12:49 PM

Fine. You can use RUS to lead song sessions anywhere you want. It is not however reasonable to call people who don't like such sessions jerks. It tends to imply you should look in the mirror for that. We do not call RUS fans jerks. It's just not our cup of tea.

And the vehement defenders of RUS on Mudat, including, it seems, the originator of the this thread, have not bothered, evidently, to actually read the article on which the thread is based.

Nobody denies that RUS is a useful book or one that belongs in many homes. That's where it belongs, in the home.

The author of the article talks about it as a bonding experience in her family. An excellent use--and one which I suspect every one of us who oppose RUS as a hymnbook in folk society singarounds will support. It is a wonderful tool for introducing kids to "folk music" in a very broad sense---in the home.

Point is: the article does not in the least address the idea of RUS as a folk society hymnbook.   That misuse, not the book itself, is our objection.

Only solution as I said earlier is:   different strokes for different folks. You RUS fans tell us where and when your sessions will be; the rest of us will be elsewhere. And please do not bring RUS to our sessions, including the Getaway.

Reason for this is, as many others and I have already said:   it just makes it too easy to not expend effort whatsoever to learn a song--and still expect others to carry the song. Those of us who do learn songs do not want that kind of musical experience--it's not in the least satisfying--in fact it's a waste of time. People who actually learn songs have too much respect for music--and communication-- to want that.

When you don't have a book to read from, you may forget verses, even start over in the middle of a song. Those of us who learn songs realize this--and totally accept it, having nothing but respect for the singer--who's actually demonstrated that he or she tried to learn the song--by the very act of not reading it out of a book. It's far better than the RUS hymn sing approach.

And anybody who holds the fond delusion that RUS singarounds "build community" is welcome to that delusion.   Just please don't expect the rest of us to share it.

The article cited at the start of the thread has exactly nothing to do with folklore society singaround use of RUS.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Patrick_Costello
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 07:33 AM

I can still remember the day somebody showed up at a Philadelphia Folk Song Society Spring Thing with advance copies of Rise Up Singing. Back then it was hard as hell to find lyrics or chord progressions to songs and the few folk song book that were out there were all lacking in some way or another.

I honestly think that the people saying bad stuff about the book are just being jerks.

I have taught tens of thousands of people around the world how to pay the banjo and guitar. I have led jam sessions all over America and across Europe. I can say from experience that Rise Up Singing is a useful little book.

-Patrick
http://tangiersound.wordpress.com


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Jack Campin
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 07:19 AM

As someone else said on this thread, the reason so few rightpondians have contributed is that the book is hardly known here (I just went to this thread because somebody on another thread pointed me to it).

But from what I remember of it, I can't see how it would be an effective tool for getting new people interested today, anywhere. Its repertoire is so circumscribed and filtered by local and period attitude that it looks a museum exhibit, or one of those retro photos of people in handknitted cardigans and Buddy Holly specs that gets recaptioned as a humorous postcard. You could imagine it being used for a theme night where the food was cubes of cheese and silver onions skewered on toothpicks.

People do bring song binders along to sessions/singarounds in the UK, but no one source predominates. Some people make it work, some don't. I liked this comment:

I will repeat once more my rule: IF you can sing out of a book or from a sheet in such a way that I can't tell with my eyes closed, I will tolerate it! If you almost know the song, but just need a little help to be sure....go ahead! But taking a book and picking a song that you have heard but seldom tried and reading it AT a group seldom works.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Barry Finn
Date: 31 Dec 08 - 11:56 PM

At leas one of the keys anyways

Barry


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 Dec 08 - 11:52 PM

Quick note before I watch "Red Green Does New Years" on the telly, then prepare to hit the sack.

Bob the Deckman strikes again! Sponteneity is the key to a good song fest.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Barry Finn
Date: 31 Dec 08 - 11:43 PM

Hi Joe, forgot you guys would be wooding it this time of the year, I hope Camp Harmony is a blast. Maybe you relied to much on booking it & not enough memory. Anyway, plannig a topical sing is just plain a tough act to nail. I've seen just by changing where musicians normally play or sing will throw off a session completey. They're a very temperamental living organism, way worst than the humans that attend them.
Have a ball & pass on my hello's to Riggy, Richard & Peter
I wish I could be there, it's been 29 yrs I think & that was the only time, hopefully not the last.

Barry


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Deckman
Date: 31 Dec 08 - 08:54 PM

Hi Joe ... nice to hear that Bruce is being well remembered. I'm going to offer a thought. If it fits, fine. If not, fine. Sometimes singing "events" can be overlly planned ... make sense? Spontaneity is a necessary part of the process. That goes back to my critism of the use of the books. How can you be spontaneous when everyone is on page 117? Bob


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Joe Offer
Date: 31 Dec 08 - 08:46 PM

We had a Utah Phillips session at San Francisco's Camp New Harmony today, and most of the songs didn't work very well. The session was dominated by oldtimers who look down on the use of songbooks. There were a few songs led by the old folks, but in general the singing was weak. There are several Utah Phillips songs in Rise Up Singing, but those of us with Blue Books were afraid to use them. Too bad - we could have had some nice community singing on a few songs, mixed with the other, more obscure ones.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 Dec 08 - 07:53 PM

"I'm wondering at so many people who seem to be independently wealthy, that all they have to do is sit about all day memorizing songs."

One song at a time, Ref, one song at a time. And speaking of time, it takes time to build a repertoire. I started around 1952. In 1955, I sat down and made a list of the songs I had learned. About 50. That's not even two new songs a month. A verse a day? Piece of cake!

Now I wasn't (and am not) rich, and I didn't spend all day learning songs. Part of that time I was going to college and part of that time I was working. Well, that was 50+ years ago, and I just kept right on learning songs. I'm still learning songs, and I'm not sure how many songs I know now, but it's a few hundred at least. And that's from memory, complete with guitar chords--muscle memory helps there.

But although I don't worry about money as long as I'm frugal, I'm still not rich.

Maybe we need to spend a bit of time on how to go about memorizing songs. It ain't that hard if you know how to go about it.

Gotta go now, and we have company tomorrow, so I'll try to tackle that in a couple of days.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Deckman
Date: 31 Dec 08 - 07:06 PM

"ref" ... you're quite correct. And, by the way, the second verse to your song and chorus are found on page 117! bob


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Ref
Date: 31 Dec 08 - 06:42 PM

I'm wondering at so many people who seem to be independently wealthy, that all they have to do is sit about all day memorizing songs. If I only did the songs I'd memorized, I'd have damn few to perform. By using books, I can do hundreds. I think we've about exhausted this topic, now. Some people have set their views in concrete. Having been insulted by some twerps afraid to step away from the book, They conclude that the books, rather than the twerps, are the problem, thereby pulling the rug out from under the newbies and beginners. If you only want to sing the same songs with the same people for the rest of time, I suppose that suits.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Joe_F
Date: 31 Dec 08 - 05:48 PM

Joe Offer:

I merely said "your drink". Your assumption that it will be beer is correct in my case, but a table supports all kinds. Indeed, if it is water, one can contribute to the conviviality by raising one's glass high when the company sings "Water drinkers are dull asses".


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Stringsinger
Date: 31 Dec 08 - 03:26 PM

One of the solutions to relying on songbooks is to encourage good song leaders who can
lead audiences in choruses to songs and encourage memorization. One of the vibrant aspects of a "folk community" which is rural, often, is that everyone knows the same songs and style and has a knowledge about them.

As to disdaining the use of RUS, this seems to me to be pedantic and short-sighted.
If it helps anyone get into singing and music, how bad can it be?

A lot has to do with the group dynamics of the environment. There are groups of people
who can make sweet music come alive together and whether they have songbooks or not bears little significance. It has to do with this sense of community which has to be nurtured. Many in America don't know how to sing with others. They are into spectator sports, watching their music on TV, lauding and promoting "pros" without a sense of participation. I have been in European musical circles where everyone grows up singing and feel no hesitation about this. (Holland, Denmark, Germany, etc.) Only in America have we been sold a bill of goods that unless you are "pro" or on TV or ? you are not qualified to participate in singing. Many music schools promote this elitist attitude.
The generic American doesn't sing.

RUS serves a function but is not the only way to bring people into a musical singing fold.
Strong choruses in songs, accessible background material on the songs to motivate interest, building an atmosphere of confidence rather than discouragement, a less "pedantic" and more open attitude regarding the nature of folk music (it is not meant to
be "precious") and keeping away the exclusivity of those "folkies" who want it for their own.

Pete's assessment of the origin of the word "Hootenanny" may not be conclusive, although
Pete, himself, did more to promote the concept which he saw as the ability of song leaders to encourage audiences to do choruses of songs, descant and harmony lines, and rhythm clapping using not just traditional folk tunes but jazz and pop songs as well. For this, the model of the African-American community with spirituals, gospels, and often intense participation is important to study.

I once sang for him a counter-melody for the jazz standard "How High The Moon" and he
thought that this was perfect for a "hootenanny" audience.

So, RUS notwithstanding, it takes all kinds.

Frank Hamilton


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 Dec 08 - 02:05 PM

I heartily concur with everything Bob (Deckman) Nelson says just above. And I most enthusiastically endorse his second to last paragraph, which bears re-reading.
A beginner is a beginner. One step in the learning process is the building of a repertoire. This is where books are necessary. But at some point, you leave the books behind and open your ears to what's really happening out there. No two singers sing the same song ... they sing variants. And it's these subtle differences that make this world of folk music so viable and ever-changing.
At the hoots (short for "hootenanny*") that are still going on—and the Seattle Song Circle initially—it was never questioned that one learn a song before trying to sing it in front of the rest of the group. This means having the words memorized, knowing the tune, and having all the guitar, banjo, or autoharp chords memorized and practiced as well. If you blow it, fine! Nobody is going to stone you or laugh at you. Keep pluggin'. Everyone had (has) fun, and a fair number of pretty good folk music performers started out tremulously but gamely trying their first song at one of these events. Then maybe a year of so later, once they have developed a repertoire, they emerge as a strong singer, sometimes going on to perform for non-folk groups.

I got started this way. And my first big break as a singer was when I was asked to do a television series on KCTS (local educational channel, now a PBS affiliate), funded by the Seattle Public Library. Jim Gilkeson, who worked for SPL in public relations and who was liaison between SPL and KCTS, was also a jazz musician who liked folk music as well, and had sat in on hoots a lot just as a listener, and that's where he had heard me. Big break indeed! After having done a television series, other offers started coming in.

What Barry said about "dumbing down" is very much to the point. If someone would like to develop his or her skills as a singer and/or instrumentalist, and develop a sufficient repertoire to perform for non-folk oriented groups, possibly do concerts, recordings, and such, then the hoot format—everybody who wants to can sing, but learn the songs and leave the books at home—is a very good, friendly, "warm plunge" way to go about it.

If one wants to get together with of bunch of other people for group singing, then fine! There's nothing wrong with that. No pressure, and no preparation required, except, perhaps owning whatever books the group uses. But the group-sing format, with everyone singing the same songs out of the same book is very unlikely to produce strong individual performers. And it may very well stifle individuality itself.

So it depends on what you, as a singer or aspiring singer, wants.

If you don't like the group singing out of a book format, don't go. Let those who enjoy it do so.

But it's a bit of reverse snobbism for those who prefer the group-sing format to accuse those people who prefer the "hoot" format, where they can sing what they want, the version they want, and in their own arrangement, of being a "clique" or implying that they're a bunch of egotistical prima donnas.

Don Firth

*And by the way, the word "hootenanny" in association with a get-together of folk musicians originated in Seattle in the late 1930s or early 1940s, and were quite different from the later "hootenannies" (after the 1963 "ABC Hootenanny" on television and the egregious movie "Hootenanny Hoot") in which there is a distinct separation of performers and audience.

See Pete Seeger's The Incompleat Folksinger, page 327.)


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: astro
Date: 31 Dec 08 - 01:11 PM

As a newbie, I can see the use of any type of book that has the repertoire, but my goal is to know the music. It is much more enjoyable to know the music and to be able to just sing. It'll come, until then, I am going to sing! So, if a group demands that the book is used only then, that is a choir meeting.

I just hope that those who I sing with will be civil and understand that you have to start somewhere. Maybe for some groups where many have the books indicate a group that has reached out and have received a great response of newbies...what good news!

astro


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