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homage to Rise Up Singing

DigiTrad:
NOT IN THE BOOK


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WFDU - Ron Olesko 31 Dec 08 - 11:29 AM
Nigel Parsons 31 Dec 08 - 11:02 AM
Deckman 31 Dec 08 - 10:54 AM
Barry Finn 31 Dec 08 - 10:50 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 31 Dec 08 - 10:12 AM
Barry Finn 31 Dec 08 - 10:01 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 31 Dec 08 - 09:29 AM
Barry Finn 31 Dec 08 - 09:06 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 31 Dec 08 - 12:10 AM
Don Firth 30 Dec 08 - 11:31 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 30 Dec 08 - 11:20 PM
astro 30 Dec 08 - 10:56 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 30 Dec 08 - 10:40 PM
Desert Dancer 30 Dec 08 - 10:26 PM
Desert Dancer 30 Dec 08 - 10:23 PM
Ref 30 Dec 08 - 07:43 PM
Roger in Baltimore 30 Dec 08 - 02:30 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 30 Dec 08 - 01:59 PM
Stringsinger 30 Dec 08 - 01:12 PM
Don Firth 30 Dec 08 - 12:21 PM
MickyMan 30 Dec 08 - 09:55 AM
Peter T. 30 Dec 08 - 09:48 AM
Deckman 30 Dec 08 - 08:20 AM
Ref 30 Dec 08 - 07:09 AM
M.Ted 30 Dec 08 - 12:53 AM
Ron Davies 30 Dec 08 - 12:13 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 29 Dec 08 - 11:16 PM
Don Firth 29 Dec 08 - 11:11 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 29 Dec 08 - 11:08 PM
catspaw49 29 Dec 08 - 11:01 PM
Bill D 29 Dec 08 - 10:56 PM
Bill D 29 Dec 08 - 10:46 PM
Don Firth 29 Dec 08 - 10:43 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 29 Dec 08 - 10:01 PM
catspaw49 29 Dec 08 - 09:52 PM
Joe Offer 29 Dec 08 - 09:52 PM
catspaw49 29 Dec 08 - 09:50 PM
M.Ted 29 Dec 08 - 09:07 PM
Joe_F 29 Dec 08 - 08:24 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 29 Dec 08 - 07:44 PM
Linda Goodman Zebooker 29 Dec 08 - 07:43 PM
Bill D 29 Dec 08 - 07:35 PM
Joe Offer 29 Dec 08 - 07:16 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 29 Dec 08 - 07:11 PM
Ref 29 Dec 08 - 06:46 PM
Deckman 29 Dec 08 - 06:36 PM
CapriUni 29 Dec 08 - 06:23 PM
Barry Finn 29 Dec 08 - 06:14 PM
Don Firth 29 Dec 08 - 06:11 PM
Barry Finn 29 Dec 08 - 06:09 PM
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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 31 Dec 08 - 11:29 AM

Barry, from what I am seeing - the "neighborhood" IS in danger of dieing. Change for the better is needed, at least in this neck of the woods and other parts of the country from what I am gathering in these threads. I respect your opinion of the sessions that you enjoy, but I'm not convinced that "very few" are enjoying sessions where books are used.    Earlier you used an analogy about Chinese restaurants and where to find the best food - well, there is also a reason why the neighborhood restaurant is still in business and there are probably people who enjoy it.   Your tastes may differ, but there are people who find great comfort in the "book". More power to them.

As Nelson said, there is no "right" or "wrong" - whatever works for your area and community.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 Dec 08 - 11:02 AM

Barry states/asks
I'm not hearing much about this from folks over in the Uk or Ireland and I'm wondering, not having been to any singing things there in almost 3 decades if in their clubs, bars & where ever they hold their sings if they have encountered this "from the book singing" thing?
Possible reason for lack of UK responses is that the thread is headed "Rise Up Singing", and this is not that common a book this side of the great pond.
We do get singing from books/papers. I am sometimes one of those. For various reasons:
1, I decide to sing at the last minute with nothing prepared, scrawl the first lines of the verses on paper to ensure I've remembered them all, and get them in order.
2, sing something I've written the words to which is topical so must be done while still topical, but which will become rapidly outdated so it is not worth fully commiting to memory
3, something already sung prompts a particular song which I know I have the words for with me.
4, at the last moment the circle organiser suggests a 'themed evening' and I manage to track down a suitable song

Cheers

Nigel


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Deckman
Date: 31 Dec 08 - 10:54 AM

I'm appreciating what Barry said about "dumbing down" with the overuse (is that a word?) of RUS. I hate to admitt it, but I am appreciating other's points of view. I HATE THAT ... because it threatens my knowing that I am ALWAYS RIGHT! That said, I still agree with Barry's point of view.

When I walk into a song session and I spot RUS copies scattered around, I don't even open my guitar case.

I taught beginning guitar for several years at our local community college. A large part of my thrust was the encouragment of singing. I loved it when whole families took the class, all the way from grandchildren through grandparents in the same class. We devoted some time, each class, to the newbie's first efforts at "singing to the class." It was great fun and you can't imagine a more supportive "audience".

But at my age of 171, I prefer to spend my time in sessions that challenge me as a musician. This I always find at Stew's monthly sessions. The best of the best attend. I like to think I've given as much as I have received.

Thinking back over the years, there's an obvious evolution here. I was 13 when I first picked up a guitar and started on this whole musical journey. I was lucky to be tutored by a very caring man who was also a brilliant performer. For the next ten years, I studied hard, learned from many singers, and profitted from the training.

A beginner is a beginner. One step in the learning process is the building of a repitoire. This is where books are necessary. But at some point, you leave the books behind and open your ears to what's really happenning out there. No two songers sing the same song ... they sing varients. And it's these subtle differences that make this world of folk music so viable and everchanging.

There is NO right or wrong here, you just choose to attend those gatherings that best satisfy. CHEERS, Bob(deckman)Nelson


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Barry Finn
Date: 31 Dec 08 - 10:50 AM

Ron, I grew up in a ever changing neighorhood, changes aren't always for the better just because they happen & just because a neighorhood survives doesn't mean that it's what's best for that community it just means that it has continued, sometimes against the odds & sometimes it'd be better off dying. As far as contemplating why things (sings in this case) have changed (it is the topic here) that's what I'm talking about and from my take on it, I hear the same complaints from many singers, "there's no decent place to go to, to get together to sing". They don't go out to sings anymore because they've been overrun by bookies, where they onced had a few good sings to choose from they now don't bother. Oh they'll get together at a party here & there but unless they know of a sing that's enjoyable & where there's no books, they won't go. So you say who needs the snobs, right? And they say who needs us, we'll just shut up & stick to our own & in some places & cases they go hiding.
Right now some one I know is trying to get a pub singing session started up in Boston, I tried this 10 yrs ago, to no avail, hopefully she'll have better luck. I'm biting my lip, waiting to see how this flies. I went to the 1st one & there were books & papers all about, it didn't look or sound like it had a good running start or a good chance of getting off the ground. I'll bet if enough strong & good singers gather in the beginning & leave the books out it'll fly, if there's gonna be another show of books all round I'll bet that the strong singers will just sit this one out too. I'll get back to on that.
In Boston there are plenty of good/great/strong singers that are buried in the woodwork & I truly believe that they'll stay there, where they've been for so long because they don't expect that they'll be any of the kind of sing that they were used to prior to the 'book singing style' coming into fashion. I am not rying to capture the past & I'm not trying to change the course of evoloution, I'm only pointing out the differences between a sing that's got something that everyone can enjoy from a sing that very few enjoy, the cry "elite" & the others retort with "you've driven us out". And I hate to say it but from what I'm reading those that enjoy a sing that's loaded with books are missing out on the sings that are rip roaring but those book sessions are not being missed by the others, so who needs or wants who more? I guess it's a matter of what one considers a half filled or a half empty glass but it's worst when there's not a choice. I think in this day & age you can find a book session at your nearest library or local bookstore but you'll have a much harder time finding a sing where you can lift the roof off the house. Just try to look for the sing where there are no books, good luck.

PS, you realize I use the words "library" & "bookstore" as word play & for effect of course, not for reality

Barry


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 31 Dec 08 - 10:12 AM

I have to disagree with you about the "pissing onto a parade" as any social gathering is a evolving entity and as you say, who is really to say what's "far better".   The neighborhood changes and the fact that these sessions can survive and attract members means they are doing something right.   There is no cookie cutter solution to all, but there is a need to contemplate just why things change and to have the patience to help others along.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Barry Finn
Date: 31 Dec 08 - 10:01 AM

Yup, they have their place, except that many of what they've replaced was once healthy & virbrant sings that got dumbed down to it's lowest common denorminator by the overrunning of the RUS, which brought all this into fashion in the 1st place. This is what I'm hearing happened in Seattle & it was what I saw happen in San Francisco & Boston & what I've heard from a good many other places too. Yes it has it's place Ron but not when it replaces what was far better in the first place (who's to say what's far better, the absence of the outburst of outward emotions). What's sad is that in some communities sings have gone underground to avoid being overrun by bookies, now that sucks for sing/song survival.

No one should ever be made to feel unwelcomed or as if they're doing something wrong when it comes to lifting their voices but no one should be allowed to piss onto a parade either just because they aren't socially aware of the underpinnings of a good session. If you find a decent sing & no one's singing from books don't you start bringing them into the picture, leave them at home or don't go, it got to be good with out them, let well enough alone.

I'm not hearing much about this from folks over in the Uk or Ireland and I'm wondering, not having been to any singing things there in almost 3 decades if in their clubs, bars & where ever they hold their sings if they have encountered this "from the book singing" thing?

Barry


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 31 Dec 08 - 09:29 AM

Barry, I'm sure the situation at Mystic will be the same - and from what you've described, the shanty session that you attended is EXACTLY what we are talking about.

The individuals who had the books may not have "soared" and raised the rafters as others did, but from your description they were not made to feel like they were doing anything wrong by using a book - and they probably had a wonderful time. Perhaps next time they will follow the lead and not need a book. Perhaps they will. The main thing I get from your description is that they were given a chance to be comfortable and participate.   I think that is all anyone has said on this thread.

Venues shouldn't "frown" when they see a book, nor should they encourage people to use them. Learn by example and have patience and understanding to help others along.

"Book sings" are not your cup of tea, but they have their place.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Barry Finn
Date: 31 Dec 08 - 09:06 AM

Last night I was at the weekly shanty session in Gloucester (USA) & the crowd had already dwinddled down to about 50 by the time I arrived (about 10:45), much more than half of that was joining in on most of the songs & probably half that leading the majority of the singing. I looked about & saw 2 books & 2 notebooks (no RUS) but only saw them being used twice. These are not shanty singers or "afficiandos", it's advertized, it's public & it's open & it was a hair raiser. When you see the bar raising their glasses & applauding the crowd & cheering song after song, except for when someone's singing out of a book then you need to take note of the dynamics. Now the 2 fellers that sang out of the book or off their note sheets were supported & their efforts were applauded but it was with far less enthusiasm & the choruses never reached the roof rafters, why, the flow or the tide was for the moment slackened & that's how it is. Now in a session of this size a couple of books & songs being sung out of books aren't gonna matter much but if you start to increase this by much it won't take long before there's no flow. This happens over the course 3 hrs & it's continues from the start at 9 right up to when the barwoman turns the lights off at 12 midnight. I see less books & notepads now than when this 1st got it's feet wet maybe 3 or 4 yrs ago & it's only gotten stronger & better as less people relied on the paper products. Lots of the waterfront people come just to drink but they come to this bar on this night because it's a blast even if singing or singing shanties is not your thing. There's a regular crowd of twentysometings (there's also a regular group of 60 somethings too) that now make this evening & place the place of choice, I'd have to guess that maybe it's far from the boring crowd. Given a choice, I would take a sing in a bar like this than a sing in a bookstore or library anyday, matter of fact after a few sings like this I might never want to see or hear the inside of a book sing again.
Saturday I'll head to Mystic & I will bet dollars to donuts that the sing there will be no different with the exception of the books. Again this is also the case at the monthly shanty session & the weekly Friday night sessions at the Press Room in Portsmouth (USA). So it's not a one time or a one place occurance, it just happens that both places frown (but don't prohibit) on books (less on notepads & paper).

Barry


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 31 Dec 08 - 12:10 AM

I am grateful for you "geezers", as I hopefully continue on the path to geezerdom myself!

I think Mark Moss's statement sums it up best. In 2008, soon to be 2009, the younger generations are faced with different technologies and diversions. The incentive to join a singing circle is different - although there are many that would want to and enjoy it once they get there.   Mark's summation that the book is a good tool is one that I agree with 100% - but it should not be the ONLY source, nor should any book or sheet of paper.   Once these people get started, they should be able to drop the crutche and enjoy the experience - but I hestitate to remove their crutches until their confidence is there.    Once they are hooked, they will in turn share the music with future generations.   

Basically, I think everyone on this thread has the same selfless motivation to perpetuate this music and to insure that future generations realize that singing is meant to be participatory, not an exhibition sport.   The passions that are shared on Mudcat are evident, and hopefully we will all take a step back to put ourselves in the shoes of others and make them feel welcome so that their gifts can be shared. There is nothing more rewarding than watching someone take pride in their own voice and abilities.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 11:31 PM

Ron, my statement above, "And so it goes, just like we did it forty, fifty years ago. The only difference is that now we are geezers" was apparently misleading, for which I apologize. The fact is that what we do remains essentially the same, but there have been considerable changes in personnel. Walt Robertson, Stan James, and John Dwyer are no longer with us. Many of what might be considered "the original crew" no longer live in Seattle. Sandy Paton left in the early 1950s. Patti McLaughlin remarried and moved to California. People come, people go, and life goes on. When it comes down to it, the "old geezers" that are still going seem to have dwindled to Bob Nelson, plus Moose (Bob Tomson), Gary and Molly Oberbillig when they can get into town, and a few others.

But don't think that our gatherings are dwindling. Far from it. From the original Seattle Song Circle of the late 1970s and very briefly into the 1980s (and I reiterate that I was one of the charter members of SSC) there were a substantial number of defectors when it morphed into a "singing out of a book" group. They now get together with the somewhat irregular gatherings of "us geezers," and also go to monthly sessions that Stewart hosts (which most of us do also).

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 11:20 PM

I agree with Mark 100%


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: astro
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 10:56 PM

It's funny, but I was looking over the Sing Out Aug/Sept/Oct. '93 issue and the First Words by Mark D. Moss was about this very same topic. A defense of using RUS, but with the injunction in the last paragraph about this topic in the article of:

"...I don't intend to demean the achievements or skills of great singers, but we all possess the basic tools to sing socially. So, damn it, sing from book all you want, people, sing from Sing Out! Sing from your heart. Just cut the "it's got to be in the book" crap, OK?"

Sounds about right to me....in these times we should be singing and singing together, it'll get us through it...

Astro


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 10:40 PM

The "large print" edition is 120% of than the original, which I guess means that the type is 20% bigger.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 10:26 PM

Forgot to say -- I think it's the same number of pages -- probably a photo-enlargement-- they're just bigger, so it's more like 8-1/2" or 9" by 11", instead of the original 7" by 9-3/4".

~ B in T


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 10:23 PM

Again, the "larger print" version is basically normal-sized print, instead of the microscopic original version; the print is not actually large, like "large-print" books. :-(

Could be that the original print size increases the likelihood that a user will have their nose buried in the book...

~ Becky in Tucson


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Ref
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 07:43 PM

I've been waiting for RUS II for that same ten years. Every time I ask, I'm told it will be out "next year."

Thanks to Frank H (and Ron again) for words of wisdom.

Gee, I was trying to be DIS-respectful!


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Roger in Baltimore
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 02:30 PM

Hello everyone,

Whatever happened to the threatened RUS II? Itwas in the works 10 years ago, but I have heard nothing of it lately. I used to sing with a monthly pot luck group. RUS was a part of it, but it wasn't the Bible. It seemed most helpful to new people who found it to be a book that had some songs they knew. It enabled them to get started in the group. I've moved from Maryland, but I stay in touch with some members. They have so many "new" people, that I do not recognize many names. However, there are some old timers as well. The joy was always that it was love of singing not ability that was encouraged.

Roger in Baltimoe


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 01:59 PM

Relax Don.

I am trying to have a conversation with you and you yourself gave this description of the gathering you attend - "And so it goes, just like we did it forty, fifty years ago. The only difference is that now we are geezers."   That would lead the reader to believe it is the same group - or a clique. You also gave a description of the Seattle Folklore Societys sings that differs from the description that they give on their website. I would love to hear from others that are involved.

So, to reply to your statement - no, I do not know what is going on in Seattle, but I am trying to piece together what you are telling us.

Please do not be defensive, this is just a discussion.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Stringsinger
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 01:12 PM

EBarnacle, good to know RUS is in large type. Is it a tome? The size of a dictionary?

Can you see it if you put it on the floor without having to look down too often?

Can you add verses to it on the spot? Maybe it should include blank pages. :)

That said, I think it's as Ron says a good introductory method of group singing. At the Old Town School they experimented with old slide and bouncing ball technique.

In the best of all possible worlds, everyone would know the songs by heart. But this shouldn't be a hindrance for people who enjoy singing together.

Whatever brings people together to sing is all right in my book (RUS or otherwise).

It's nice when there are those who can add to the singing of the song by introducing new verses that they "remember". It gives the sing more vitality.

I think a balance between the songbook and solo memorized verses is good or even cheat sheets with those of us who are not so good at remembering the songs we used to know.

Frank Hamilton


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 12:21 PM

Ron O., this is not just an "old session that is still continuing among the same people."   We do involve new people and have been all along. It is not a static group or a "clique," as you are trying to characterize it. And as far as assembling interested people are concerned, you missed the point of what I said. The process begins with a phone call or an e-mail, then the word goes out from there.

When we do have an "invitation only" event, it's a whole different thing.

I'm really impressed that, all the way from New Jersey, you know more about what's going on in the Seattle area than I do and that you are telling me the deeper meaning of what's really happening here.

Ron—I'm here, on the scene. You're not.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: MickyMan
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 09:55 AM

This thread got me thinking once again of how much I love this book, but hesitate to use it because of the small type. I went to the Blood-Peterson's website and I now vow to purchase the larger format book along with the demo CD as it is listed there. For all of its limitations it is still truly a great resource for getting good singable songs.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Peter T.
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 09:48 AM

Some of this now strikes me as philosophical/psychological. A related example would be the question of surtitles at the opera. My own feeling is that surtitles are great, but they do present a problem, which is that the part of the brain that reads (let's call it left brain, though I am left handed, and all this brain division stuff strikes me as anti-leftie, but let that pass for the moment) is engaged in reading surtitles, while the right brain is the part that should be engaged in the opera spectacle. I have wrestled with this for awhile, and can't really decide: but I do think there is a lessening of the impact with the brain switching back and forth (though the brain is pretty swift). The reading of songbooks and lyric sheets maybe strikes some people as a lesser experience to the "true" oral tradition.

yours,

Peter T.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Deckman
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 08:20 AM

I'm enjoying the various postings to this thread. I'm reading a LOT of different viewpoints and that's GREAT. This is what MC does best ... bringing many different folks together, with differing viewpoints, and let 'em thrash it out in a peaceful and sensible manner. And, as passionate as the varying views are, everyone has remained respectfull of different opinions. YIPPEE! Bob


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Ref
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 07:09 AM

What you're describing isn't a sing-along. It's a choir.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: M.Ted
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 12:53 AM

It seems effortless because you're practiced at doing it--And learning the songs so that you can sing and play them without fumbling around with, say, Rise Up Singing, is a big part of the work, as well.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Ron Davies
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 12:13 AM

It comes down, unsurprisingly, to: different strokes for different folks.

I'm one who used to regularly go to FSGW Open Sings--and look forward to hearing new songs.   Since the advent of RUS (which I affectionately call Sink Down Moaning), I've stopped going to FSGW Open Sings. 1 copy of RUS is enough--let alone 6.

Look, it's a question of time and priorities. I only have so much time I can spend on song sessions. So I will not even take the chance that somebody will say: "Turn to page 34 and sing the second one from the bottom"--which he or she may never have even seen before.

RUS just makes it too easy to exert no effort whatsoever to learn a song--and still expect others to sing it.

I have no objection to song books or packets--if the occasion warrants it.

I lead a yearly SATB door-to-door caroling session which has been going on without a break since 1992--and keeps getting stronger. Soon we may have to split it in 2. I have to find real tenors--so I have to pick a night they can do it--but then all the other parts are led by strong singers. We sing out of a packet I've put together--which also keeps growing. We also take all requests and make up harmonies on the spot for more secular-oriented fare, like White Christmas and Winter Wonderland. We play roles on Wenceslas--male and female. In the packet are anything from Joy to the World and Adeste Fideles-- to Jingle Bells and 12 Days of Christmas--to A La Nanita Nana (which is a big hit with the group as well as our Hispanic neighbors.)

We had 13 invited singers and 10 neighborhood people joining in this year. The kids are really enthusiastic--especially the 4 year olds, but also the 7 and 9 year olds. We ask anybody we sing for if they'd like to join us. And they do.

And we do sound good--as we've been told many many times. Then we go back to Jan's and my place and sing parodies and other seasonal material--and drink and eat--til all hours.

If you have the right people, singing out of a book or packet can be successful. But this is the opposite of the RUS experience.




I've been to RUS hymn sings--- out of town---where I can't avoid the book. I don't take a book, and I sing the choruses, and throw in harmonies. It's really not necessary for every single person to sing every single word. I'd be perfectly happy if the leader would sing the song and the rest of us could join in at the chorus--or just listen.



I also disagree with Ron O's view that it's better to sing out of a book than to look up at the sky for words. I sometimes put my hand on my head to keep words from escaping--as Bill D can testify. But I will not sing out of a book or a sheet at a sesssion--though I may hold a sheet--as a talisman (it works).


So as long as you RUS fans are sure to tell us when you will be using that book, the rest of us can make plans to be elsewhere. And everybody should be happy.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 11:16 PM

Not the same thing. You are talking about a old session that is still continuing among the same people.   Naturally that can continue the way you are doing it - and it should.   What we've been talking about in this thread are more public and ongoing sessions that are open to anyone, not an e-mail invite for a group of friends.   I agree with you there, if you have a select group then you absoulutely should follow what you are doing. But when you look at something like the Seattle Folksong Society, it appears they are doing something to involve others. Seems like two different purposes, and there is nothing wrong with that.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 11:11 PM

Ron, I just did. Up a few posts.

Big change, however. These days, instead of a phone call, it's frequently an e-mail.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 11:08 PM

It is difficult to compare a sing that occured 30, 40 or 50 years ago with the way things are today. Participants change and so do their desires, abilities, and needs. We are affected by modern technology as well as our choices of entertainment.   The reality is that changes will evolve and you cannot expect things to work they way they once did.

Sure, there may be a group that can get by without any sheets of paper or books, but nowadays it just isn't the same for everyone. There were reasons that SOME people started bringing books and sheets in the first place and now that they are here, you cannot expect things to go back to the way they once were.

It is nice to get nostalgic and remember - and we can certainly learn lessons and try to incorporate those traditions - but it isn't going to happen by wishing it were so, nor is it going to happen by enforcing rules. You need to look at where we are and where we are going.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 11:01 PM

Aw hell Bill.....Just admit it. A lot of your posts don't make much sense anymore for whatever reason so don't go blaming Father JoeBro. Just grab a quick nap and come back and try again...................

Spaw


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 10:56 PM

(since Joe combined the threads, this all reads a little bit strange...my post of 7:35 did originally follow immediately after Lisa Null's in that short-lived thread. )


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 10:46 PM

*grin*...The picture of Joe (the exuberant ) was part of a site with a link to this page, which tries to wean folks from the RUS habit....

I am not sure where our Open Sing is headed....I'll know more in a week. (Linda Goodman may use RUS a bit, but she is getting less & less dependent on such things...I have been happily amazed at her progress the last couple of years!....good going, Linda)


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 10:43 PM

". . . it takes a lot of work to make these seemingly spontaneous events happen!"

Well, I dunno. Elmar Lanczos wasn't a singer, but he was a folk music enthusiast, he had a humongous collection of folk records, he owned a house near the University District, and he lived alone (until he got married some years later). A couple of us (who just happened to have our guitars with us, just in case) would run into each other at the Pizza Haven or the Blue Moon Tavern, and someone would phone Elmar and say, "How about a hoot tonight. Your place."   Elmar would say, "You bring the beer. I'll call a few people." Then we'd also call a few people and say, "Hoot. Elmar's. As soon as you can get there."

Within less than forty-five minutes there would be a dozen, maybe two dozen people sitting around on the sofa, chairs, and cross-legged on the carpet in Elmar's living room, tuning up their guitars, banjos, nose-flutes, whatever. Someone would sing a song. Then someone else would sing. Then someone else. Then the first person would sing again. Then someone would start a song with a good chorus. Then somebody new would sing.

But not everyone sang. Those who did sing might have come alone, or brought a buddy, or a girl friend, or a husband, some of whom sang and some just wanted to listen and enjoy. But anyone was free to lift his or her voice in song, if so moved.

And so on. No one person dominated. Nobody acted as referee or master-of-ceremonies. Common courtesy and mutual respect ruled. If a "Sergeant-at-Arms" was needed (say, in the case of someone who heard about it, didn't give a damn about folk music but was just looking for a party, and then only if he got drunk, rowdy, and disruptive), that would be the host, with whatever other muscle that the situation might call for. But that sort of thing happened rarely, if ever.

If someone who had never sung before hauled off and sang (even if badly), it was generally hailed as a major debut, complete with encouraging comments. Sometimes such folks moved quickly into the ranks of the stronger singers.

No song books or song sheets in sight.

And thus it went.

These days. Bob Nelson phones. He says, "Sunday afternoon. My place. Come around 2:00. Judy and I have a big pot of chili. Bring whatever else you want to eat or drink." So Barbara and I arrive around two-ish. Stewart and Betty are already there, Mike Nelson (no relation to Bob) arrives shortly thereafter, followed by John Weiss and Jerry Middaugh. Moose and Sally arrive, and Casey and Molly even, driving all the way up from Olympia. Beth West arrives, and Nancy Quensé shortly afterwards. She's brought her new hurdy-gurdy (that'll send Bob's cats up the nearest tree!). A couple of Bob's neighbors also drop in. After we chow down, the guitarum and banji and such come out, there is the popping, as beer bottle caps come off (I don't recall anyone ever getting splashed at these fests), and the tuning up ritual takes place ("Give me your D."). When done, someone hauls off and sings the first song. Then someone else sings. Then someone sings a sea chantey (good chorus, everyone joins in). Then someone else sings. Love songs, ballads (accompanied and unaccompanied), sea songs, lullabyes, nonsense songs. Dick and Gela Gibbons manage to make it after all. Dick recites his latest poem. Then someone else sings. . . .

And so it goes, just like we did it forty, fifty years ago. The only difference is that now we are geezers. But some of Bob's and my former guitar pupils are there also, playing and singing, and sometimes Beth's daughter, Lizzie (who is taking violin lessons) plays the fiddle.

When we sing at these song fests, are these "performances?" Well . . . yes and no.

A lot of work? Usually just a telephone call. Then it happens.

Don Firth

P. S. By the way. Community? Camaraderie? Friendship? These things are there. They just happen. If you have to struggle to bring them about, then something's wrong.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 10:01 PM

" "What Condoms Do Mudcatters Prefer." Its been 10 years since that one started and I think many have gone through enough physical changes to change their original answer."

For some, it now must be like shooting pool with a rope.







(With apologies to George Burns for stealing his line)


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Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing and Singing Out Loud
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 09:52 PM

Geeziz.....A second concurrent thread! What a treat! I can hardly wait to see what pops up that's different.

Spaw(;<))
    Agreed. Threads combined.
    -Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 09:52 PM

Joe F is a man of my own heart. I drink beer at song circles, which makes it difficult for me to hold a songbook. So, I put the songbook where I can glance at it, and keep a tight hold on my beer.
Sometimes, I blow across the beer bottle as accompaniment. You get harmonics if you blow really hard.

Now, I have occasionally been chastized for giving bad example by drinking at a singaround; but other, more important people have learned to look forward to sharing my six-pack. If I brought a case, I might be dangerous.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 09:50 PM

At Mudcat NOTHING is ever talked to death. Oh, the same folks drag out the same arguments and we go all over them again, but like I said way back at the beginning of this thread, the fuss about RUS has been a time honored subject here no matter that the argument goes nowhere. The "What is Folk" threads may outnumber it by a bit but there's not much in it and no one ever really changes their mind.

When I think back on some of the old topics I think the one that has the most potential to change minds (for a variety of reasons) is "What Condoms Do Mudcatters Prefer." Its been 10 years since that one started and I think many have gone through enough physical changes to change their original answer.

Come to think of it though..............Its not the type or brand or style or color of condom that makes the difference. Like RUS, it depends on how its used.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: M.Ted
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 09:07 PM

I no longer wrestle at any sort of sing or hoot, Barry.   I have had complaints that the inevitable wagering distracts from the singing.

In any case, I never need either a songbook or crib sheets at sings, owing to an annoying trick my brother and I used to do as kids, which is to watch someone's lips and talk(or sing) along with them.

I one day I got a whole band angry at me at a free concert because they thought someone must have stolen tapes of their never completed album and given them to me. That is another story though.

I agree with Joe that this is about all the things that are involved in making a music gathering work--and, books or no, it takes a lot of work to make these seemingly spontaneous events happen!


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Joe_F
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 08:24 PM

I have expressed myself elsewhere about the pros & cons of songbooks in general & RUS in particular at sings. Here I will suggest some ways to make books less obtrusive & possibly easier to tolerate.

Reading is faster than singing, and most of the time, in addition, you will have sung or at least heard the song before. Using a crib to sing is not like reading aloud from a newspaper. When I am using a book I try to confine myself to occasional glances, and face the company the rest of the time. A quick scan in advance, to see if the version you know is different, may also be advisable.

All that is all the easier if you are sitting around a large, well-lighted table. The book is horizontal, you don't have to hold it, and your nose is not in it. (Also, your drink is handy.) That used to be the standard setting for convivial singing, and Don Duncan provided it for his sings at Old Joe Clark's of blessed memory. It limits the size of the company, but that is fine with me.


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Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing and Singing Out Loud
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 07:44 PM

" some folks never get past the idea that "creating community" is not the only goal when people get together to sing. Those who 'mostly' sing without the book and know various versions of songs, and who know songs not in the book ALSO have a sense of community."

Sorry Bill, but I think you are making assumptions.   No one ever denied that people who "mostly" sing without a book have a true sense of community.

I'm afraid you aren't recognizing that there is a danger about losing community when certain actions are taken. I don't think anyone in the other thread said to "go by the book", many of us are simply saying that the idea of banning those who use it is wrong.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Linda Goodman Zebooker
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 07:43 PM

I like RUS for what it is, a shared vocabulary of a whole lot of good songs. When I'm searching for a song fitting the theme of an upcoming Open Sing, I'll thumb through RUS and search the Digitrad. Odd but fun things can pop up in RUS, like the time I saw "The Man on the Flying Trapese" and added that to my repetoire for the theme of "Ways to get from here to there". "Classics" I haven't thought about for decades will become relevant.

It's also fun to quietly get out my RUS at Open Sings. So often someone will sing a song that's there. One just has a sense it will be found. They, the leader aren't reading out of The Book, they are just singing a reasonably well-known song. But I may have never learned the words, myself, and so I can actually sing along, in harmony, and have a good time as a participant.

This past weekend I was at a small folk gathering in the Philadelphia area. A pretty hard-core Rock and Roll guy was saying (to my astonishment) that he really likes Rise Up Singing. He's always amazed that the words/chords to so many many songs he wants to re-aquaint himself with can be found there.


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Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing and Singing Out Loud
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 07:35 PM

Lisa's article is clear & succinct and echoes many of us from the other thread, but as one of the comments following the article shows, some folks never get past the idea that "creating community" is not the only goal when people get together to sing. Those who 'mostly' sing without the book and know various versions of songs, and who know songs not in the book ALSO have a sense of community.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 07:16 PM

Aw, Bob, we haven't really talked the subject to death. It's more than just a book we're talking about - it's how to run a song gathering, and how to get people to sing, and how to keep the quality up without excluding people. I think most of us know there are good points on both sides of the discussion - but where do we find the happy median?

I think it's fine to use songbooks at song gatherings, but I'm well aware of the shortcomings of that practice. I went caroling at retirement homes a dozen times this month, and I was dismayed that most of the singers never looked up from their song sheets. I think that human eye contact is essential in singing - and most good singers have good eye contact, whether or not they use a songbook. Sometimes when I find singers with their noses too deep in the book, I'll lead a camp song, sometimes one with hand motions - that often breaks the nose-in-the-book cycle for several songs.

No, mind you, I haven't tried it; but maybe singing naked would cure the nose-in-the book syndrome. People might use the books to hide their....embarrassment.

But to have a good song session, I think you have to do more than just prohibit books and bad singers. You have to put your heart into it - and imagination and a sense of humor helps, too.

-Joe-

P.S. to Ron - Barry is not as intimidating as he sounds. It's really fun to sing with him, and he's always gentle, polite, and encouraging. And I think you'd have a wonderful time at a Getaway. I'll teach you obnoxious camp songs.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 07:11 PM

Sorry Barry, but it looks like we just have to accept that we disagree on this topic.   I have high respect for your opinion, and I do not doubt that you found the sessions "boring" as you described. I still wonder what the rest of the attendees felt - if these sessions have been going on for awhile, someone must enjoy them.   As for the session that you like, it seems like a wonderful event, but if someone is going to feel ostracized if they bring in a book, then I would have to classify it as "elite".   Again, that is not meant as a putdown. If you have something good, you are certainly entitled to keep it going. You say that outsiders are welcome, but I have to wonder if others feel the same way.   You do make it sound intimidating.

Again, I meant no disrespect to anyone who has shared their thoughts.   My personal opinion is that a song circle is about the joy of singing, and I think everyone needs to approach it with an understanding of all the participants and do whatever they can to encourage others to join in.   If you feel you have the right formula, good luck to you. I assume that I won't be hearing any future discussions about why folk music is dieing and why people aren't turning out for sessions.   I assume whatever solutions are out there are meant to be inclusive and welcoming to younger generations.

Sing for the song, not the performance.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Ref
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 06:46 PM

Good idea! I'll be sharpening my cleats.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Deckman
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 06:36 PM

HEY ... I've a REAL NEAT IDEA! Now that we've talked this subject to death, how about if we find a new topic for next year ... maybe something really simple like: "What's A Folk Song?" CHEERS, Bob(deckman)Nelson ((AKA bad bad bob))


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Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing and Singing Out Loud
From: CapriUni
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 06:23 PM

Here's the blicky for Lisa's article (and yes, it's very good!):

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/12/29/17723/334?new=true


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Barry Finn
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 06:14 PM

You are more than welcome to join in singing wherevever I am found, as those that know we, will tell you I always seek for everyone to pitch in & do what ever they can, I don't care if you only came to listen as long as you're having a good time.

You only need to wrestle with me when you're not singing & I don't give a hoot weither you soar or crash land as long as you fly without trying to read at the same time.

Barry


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 06:11 PM

I've read Stewart's, Barry's, and PoppaGator's posts while nodding some.

I wouldn't swear to it, but I don't think the blurb on the Seattle Song Circle web page has changed in several years. Apart from the comments about RUS, it pretty much outlines the way SSC started out, as I described above, and continued for the first few years. But it went through the period that I also described, where newcomers to the group began showing up with armloads of books. We wound up politely sitting there while person after person struggled with songs they didn't know and admittedly hadn't encountered until an hour or two before the meeting, while looking for something they might sing.

There was one person who was not particularly interested in folk music, he was into the songs of Jacques Brel—sung in French (which he couldn't speak and which he pronounced egregiously). And these were songs which he had heard, but hadn't particularly attempted to memorize.   So he sang them haltingly, craning his neck to one side so he could read the words out of a song book balanced on his knee while holding his guitar up high and trying to figure out what chords went with "Ne me quitte pas" and other songs.

It was not a pretty sight. Or sound.

He had sung a number of other songs from memory (so he could do it) and he was a fairly competent guitarist. He could have done it with these songs too. So why did he feel that instead of learning the songs at home and working out the chords, it was okay to inflict his first attempts at them on the rest of the group?

Since there was no hierarchy of authority or "Sergeant at Arms," no one policed this kind of thing and everyone did their damnedest to be patient and polite. But when the same sort of thing, by several different people, went on meeting after meeting, many of the originals, people such as John Dwyer, Stan James, Bob Nelson, John and Sally Ashford, and others, including Barbara and me, dropped out. It just wasn't enjoyable anymore.

Later, we heard that SSC had adopted Rise Up Singing as the Official Song Book and that the meetings had turned in hymn-sings, using only songs from the book.

Maybe things have changed, but last I heard from someone who attended recently, it was pretty much the same.

I have a great deal of sympathy for and I like to support and encourage people who are just learning. I remember my first efforts to sing in front of a group and I really appreciate the support and encouragement that I received, not just from other newbie's like myself, but from the more experienced singers such as Walt, Sandy, and Claire. It was a warm plunge, and it gave me the energy and incentive to keep plugging away. And a goodly portion of my professional life has been teaching, so I am well acquainted with the plight of, and sympathetic toward, the beginner wanting to try their wings.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Rise Up Singing and Singing Out Loud
From: Barry Finn
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 06:09 PM

Thanks for your take on this Lisa, it's not only very enjoyable to listen to but it's just as enjoyable to read you too.

Barry


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