homage to Rise Up Singing

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: M.Ted
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 09:11 PM

I've got to say that I've learned a lot from this thread.

I know how to memorize a song, and I've got shelves full of music books too (though I haven't needed to measure the linear footage), and I pretty much know what I need to about how to use them (including how to read both lyrics and music).

I didn't know how some of you felt about others, particularly those who you perceive to have less skill,   talent, or motivation than you. Those long, long, posts have really given me a chance to understand you better--and I've been surprised by some of what I've found out.

Thanks for sharing.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 08:07 PM

Whatever

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 07:56 PM

Ron O., it would appear that you and I are speaking a different language. Maybe we'd just better let it go at that.

Don Firthh

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 07:27 PM

"Ron O., you keep intoning that those who don't agree with your position are "missing the point" or of failing to see "any viewpoint other than their own." I'm sorry, but it is you who seems to be missing the point or refusing to acknowledge the validity of other viewpoints."

That isn't it at all. If you read my posts, I am acknowledging the validity of your viewpoints - which is different than agreeing with them. Nor am I asking you or anyone else to agree with my points. I am merely making sure that you don't shout down an alternate viewpoint.

If you paid attention to what I was writing, you would have noted that I was telling Ron D. that I was not disagreeing with his views of his session and his comments about that session were not in question. THAT was the point he was missing.

As to your question about where are the "new Pete Seegers and Frank Hamiltons and Guy Carawans and Susan Reeds and Joan Baezes and Cynthia Goodings" - why on earth do you need to replace the ones that exist?   Who did they replace?   Even when their gone, they have left us a legacy to make music for ourselves. THAT is what Pete Seeger's mission in life has been - read his book about storytelling for an example.

If you look around, there are plenty of people taking up the mantle - Joe Jencks, John Flynn, John McCutcheon, Guy Davis and many others as well. They are unique to their generations, just as the cast of characters were unique to theirs.

This is not a case of "Gresham's Law" as Dick is found of bringing up every time these type of arguments crop up. That arguement has become an excuse whenver there is a change that some folks do not agree with.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Ref
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 04:14 PM

In my own defense, I would point out that

A. In writing "pompous performers", I was setting up a straw man rather than attacking anyone;

B. I never used the words "prima donna" (maybe someone else did); and,

C. I believe I used the word "twerps" to describe people who are so attached to "The Book" that they won't listen to anything from other provenance.

"Thud."

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 03:46 PM

Ron O., you keep intoning that those who don't agree with your position are "missing the point" or of failing to see "any viewpoint other than their own." I'm sorry, but it is you who seems to be missing the point or refusing to acknowledge the validity of other viewpoints.

I have been to both kinds of sessions and I speak from observation and experience, and I read the same kind of observations and experience in the posts of Ron Davies, Barry Finn, and Big Mick.

I have no objection to RUS or any other song book. I have a whole bookcase full of them. I use them as a resource for learning songs and some of them are not just song books, they contain songs plus lots of information about the songs. The Lomax books, The Ballad Tree by Evelyn Kendrick Wells, MacEdward Leach's The Ballad Book, books of cowboy songs, sea songs, The Richard Dyer-Bennet Song Book, Folk Songs of England, Ireland, Scotland, and Wales compiled by William Cole, hardbacks and paperbacks such as Song Fest, The Joan Baez Song Book -- and, yes, Rise Up Singing One whole bookcase, about eighteen linear feet, of such books. I use them as a resource, to learn songs, and to learn about the songs.

I could easily fit the stereotype of the folk singer in the wisecrack, "I knew he was a folk singer because he spent ten minutes introducing a three-minute song." But I've learned to restrain myself and limit any comments I make to brief introductory notes. And I have found that when some folks realize that these songs have backgrounds, that they are not just the product of the imagination of someone with a pen and a sheet of music manuscript paper, that's when they begin to find the songs fascinating, want to learn more about them, and want to begin singing them.

That doesn't happen when people are sitting around singing out of a book. In group-sings, does anyone ever read the meager (if any) program notes in RUS? Not that I've ever heard. It's just another song to sing out of the 1200 some-odd songs in the book. And it's only one version of that song out of many.

When I learn a song, I often compare different versions of the song, and frequently what I wind up singing is a composite. Some "purists" may cavil at this, but I have it on the authority of one of my English professors at the U. of Washington, Dr. David C. Fowler (A Literary History of the Popular Ballad)) that this is "a minstrel's prerogative," and a part of the folk process (Peggy Seeger says she does the same thing: see her Introduction in Folk Songs of Peggy Seeger, Oak Publications, New York, 1964).

I don't feel that I really "own" a song unless I've learned it, spent some time studying it, and can sing it from memory. If I'm singing a song out of a book, I don't "own" it, we're just passing acquaintances. But by going through and singing songs from a book, I may discover songs that I do want to learn. And "own."

Also—as I said in a post above, usually what attracts me to a song in the first place is hearing someone sing it, either in person or on record (or radio; or television). But the way that someone sings it makes a difference. It's happened that I've heard someone sing a song and it made no particular impression on me. But later, someone else sings the same song and it comes to life—and I want to learn it. The second singer "owns" the song, and by the way they sing the song, they offer it to me as well. And since deeds to the song are potentially infinite, I do learn it, own it, and sing it.

So far, a group sitting around and singing out of a book has never offered a song to me in the same way.

Where are the new Pete Seegers and Frank Hamiltons and Guy Carawans and Susan Reeds and Joan Baezes and Cynthia Goodings coming from? The kind of "free-for-all folk song orgies" that I attend have been taking newcomers and, over a relatively brief period of time, turning some of them into good, strong singers—yes, performers. People who like to perform, and who can sing for both folk and not-folk audiences and pass on the same kind of spark that they have received.

I have yet to see this sort of thing happening in, or emerging from, book-oriented song sessions.

IF—that is what a person wants to do. If they have no further ambitions than to enjoy singing out of a song book with a group of other people and partake in the social interplay that takes place, then FINE! Go right ahead! I'm not saying that people shouldn't, or that there is anything wrong with this. I don't think anyone here is advocating a ban on this.

But what is this prejudice against those who prefer to sing—yes, perform—solo (as well as participate in group singing), doing songs or versions of songs that are not in "The Book?" Why is it necessary to call people such as me "pompous performers" or "prima donnas" or "twerps" simply because we like to learn the songs, give them a good arrangement, and sing them as well as we possibly can? And who are capable of getting up in front of an audience and singing—entertainingly and informatively—from a memorized repertoire that allows them to sing concert-length performances?

What's the problem?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Ref
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 02:56 PM

"Thud. Thud. Thud."

That's the sound of someone kicking a dead horse.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Big Mick
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 02:51 PM

I make a certain distinction in this ongoing argument. I dislike RUS because when I was exposed to it, it contained "cleaned up" lyrics, the wrong chords, and people who insisted that it was the bible of folk music. We, of course, know that the bible of folk music is the mind, and we sing songs the way our mind "hears" them and remembers them (Folk process?). Because of the way I phrase, which has to do with interpretation the way my mind "hears" the song, I sometimes have folks gently chastise me, or worse yet when they are listening to me they attempt to sing over me and superimpose "the correct way" onto my song. I am really not bothered by notes or crib sheets, as I have seen some pretty damned amazing singers use them at gatherings, and in live performance venues. What does bother me is when someone clearly has not invested the time to know the song, understand the context and message they are trying to portray, and we are all uncomfortable watching them stumble.

BUT ON THE OTHER HAND..........

There are those who, while lacking confidence and maybe with marginal skills, that just want to sing. The book gives them the ability, and they make the leap and overcome their fear, .......... and they sing. When I see someone who is clearly trying to stretch out and do this, I encourage them as much as possible.

And by the way, the two compilations of "Sing Out" (one is blue, the other is pink) are the real deal. I still have both, they are threadbare and worn, and they are a treasure. I do not possess a copy of RUS, but I suppose I shall pick up the current edition at some point.

Just my tuppence worth.....

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 02:42 PM

No, it is not Gresham's Law. People change with the times.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 02:08 PM

"IF a folk society has become "polluted" with books, perhaps you need to look further than placing the blame on the book. IF a group moves in a certain direction, there is a reason."

I believe the reason is called Gresham's Law.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: open mike
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 01:09 PM

i have not visited this thread for weeks,
but i saw the answer to a question i posted
Winds of Change was the song book that was
put together before R.U.S. i looked for it
but there are other books by that same name,
notably one by Isaac Asimov so i can't find
another available..

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: M.Ted
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 12:33 PM

Hey, Ron Davies!!

Lighten up!! I was just joking around and taking some obvious and silly potshots, just to show that it is possible to take potshots at anything--even if it is fun and worthwhile for the people to participate.

That's why I said, "All in meant in good fun, of course--and submitted just to show that no matter how good you are, someone can find something to take a shot at, if they have a mind to-"

And, about music, I ain't as dumb as I look.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 10:17 AM

Ron D - you are still missing the point. No one is complaining about your sessions in Washington. You are still deluding yourself as you fail to see any point of view other than your own.

When you say that an "RUS sing" drives mentors away, perhaps the problem is with the mentor in not being able to reach people. IF a folk society has become "polluted" with books, perhaps you need to look further than placing the blame on the book. IF a group moves in a certain direction, there is a reason. If you disagree with that reason, you are either deluding yourself by choosing to ignore it, or you by your own admission you are not capable of being the mentor that will institute change as you see fit.

It all boils down to "different strokes for different folks", and if the mentor knows what they are doing they can make change - or they can sit back and complain about the changes that have occured.

Again, if all you are looking for is "good singers", then you are after a certain type of sing that you certainly should participate in. The FSGW sings are not for you.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Ron Davies
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 09:48 AM

"cut of a group"

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Ron Davies
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 09:46 AM

No question who called the other side "jerks"--and who said "different strokes for different folks" over and over.

And anybody who thinks you can drive your mentors away--which is exactly what a RUS-centered sing does---- and still have a vibrant folk society--is, yet again, deluding themselves.

As Mr. Gore says, an inconvenient truth.

I don't claim to be one of the people with the most information and tips to dispense to new folkies--but I can tell you that if you drive away Barry, Don, and Bob Deckman, among many others, you will be driving away some of your best mentors. And that is exactly what you do with a RUS-centered sing.

Anybody who thinks our gatherings in the DC area--outside the RUS-polluted FSGW open sing--are a bunch of preening performers--has never been to one.   It's a bunch of people making good music and having a whale of a time while doing it.

And anybody who objects to 3 or 4 chord music obviously doesn't like country music. Fine. But I also suspect that that person, in addition to being a snob, is not a very good singer. C& W gives a great opportunity for harmony, both vocal and instrumental. My wife and I sing country duets. Also, it's great fun--and well appreciated--to throw in harmonies, vocal and instrumental. Which elementary music theory--of which I suspect the above-named snob is blissfully ignorant-- makes easy.

As to just 3 or 4 chord music being played at our New Years eve party--not likely. There are some really talented jazz players who come to those gatherings and steer the music in that direction. At least one of the pieces was DJango Reinhardt--I just don't know the name. And there were some real Hawaiian pieces, again whose names I don't know.

As usual, somebody who puts down a whole genre of music or comments negatively on an event at which he was not present only shows his own ignorance.   Whereas I can comment knowledgeably on both RUS-centered gatherings and those without that book--since I have experienced both many times.

Also, C & W is not my only musical outlet. The Choral Arts Society of Washington, of which I'm a long-term member, sings the Brahms Requiem, Mozart Requiem, Belshazzar's Feast--and and unending list of other great works of choral literature. Most of which, I hazard a guess, the above-named snob has no interest in. And would be unlikely to make the cut of group which regularly performs in the Kennedy Center Concert Hall, as we do.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 11:34 PM

I feel that everyone is sharing their same opinions over and over again. each of us convinced that we have the "facts" when all we have are observations and our own views.   We are also misinterpreting each others comments - or choosing to twist words to fit a point.

My only hope is that if some "newbie" reads this post and feels that they need to pick up a copy of RUS, they will. There is nothing evil about the book, it is a good resource and you will learn from it. Do you need it at a session? Perhaps not, but if you do choose to take it, I hope that you won't be given a cold shoulder or looked down upon. I do hope you will learn from others as well and find the passion that a couple of the posters (Barry, Don) have shown. It is admirable and their involvement with the music is to be admired.   While I disagree with their positions, I do hope they will inspire others to sing.

If there are newbies to Mudcat that were unfortunate enough to choose this thread to read as their introduction to this website, I hope you won't be discouraged. The petty bickering, name calling and childish behavior witnessed here is not the norm. (Yes, I fault myself for participating in some of those unfortunate antics.)

The important thing to see is that everyone has a passion about THEIR style of music and THEIR community. It is also YOUR community. Enjoy it to the fullest and sing for the song, not for the expectation of others.   You aren't performing and it doesn't matter if you are strong or just mouth the words - get out their and experience the joy of singing.

Ref summed it up best - "to each their own".

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Barry Finn
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 11:16 PM

Whoa, I just got back from a shanty blast that was a benifit fund raiser in support of the Mystic Sea Music Festival. It was heaven! Really, a cloud pleaser, a walk on the wild side. Not a piece of paper to be seen or read from. Not everyone lead but as far as I could tell everyone sang, at least a couple hundred of them. You don't need a memory to sing on choruses for shanties. They were sung on ships that shipped crews that sounded & looked like the United Nations, the langauges spoken were many, the surrounding sounds of a working ship & nature was in constant comptation with the vocal sounds of the seamen at work, who by the way were not singers by a far stretch, they were songs by their natural work related form created to be simple & clear. By the 3rd verse most caught on to the chorus (by the 4th chorus of almost anything you should have at least some of it down), so anyone can sing at bookless singarounds & even if they get a little complicated it's not all that hard if the song gets sung at a few rounds. I sometimes start off with a chorus & repeat it if I don't think it's being caught, I have to be carefull with my thick Boston accent. There were no turns, it was a free for all though before it was finished the spokesperson asked 3 different times "was there anyone who hasn't yet lead a song & that wants to"? By the end there were no takers left. No you wouldn't want to bring out a book at a session like this, the songs are sung hard & strong & when you get better than 200 voices joining in on the song you want to make sure 'you know what they're singing cuz you're leading them & if they stray you need to pull them along & if they're gonna pull you, you can bet it won't be in the direction you were going, so you had better know your song well enough that you don't need no stinking book.

Now to the Ron's. Yes book singing does nothing to build a singing society, IMHO it will stunt it's growth if not kill it. I've seen, known & heard of a number of vibrant song societies that when RUS came along they never were the same & they never recovered & got back to the point where they flowed & they swayed, where they sang & they partied, where they kidded each other & laughed at themselves & each other. I keep going to some sings that have been carrying on for decades just to see if they've changed & they haven't. Just because they continue only means thatthe beginners are satisfied with staying beginners & anyone that moves on moves out. So these sings stay at a constent plateau, if you put a heart monitor on them you'd get a dead line. No joking, very litle info on the song & where it came from, It's background cuz all you need to know is in the book. No tossing in different verses from different versions cuz all you need & want is right there in the book. No sense trying it with a varition to the tune cuz the only tune you all need is already there as well as the cords so you don't even need to pitch it to your own voice, it's all laid out for you nice, neat & cozy. God forbid that someone sing something Sean Nos, how would you get those voice reflection written into the book.
I've had performers that because they performed for a society feel obligated to attend that society's sing & was told at a different singing session that they'd never perform for that society again because they feared that they'd have to attend another book sing & they wouldn't face that again, even for pay.
A book sing does most definitly drive a higher level of singer into the arms of a beast. It's not a problem in places like San Francisco, Boston, Settle, Austin, Toronto, Chicago, LA (I can only speak for cities that I know of & not of places overseas) but in the more rural areas it's had on those singers that want more than just a low level book-in. Yes, they go to houses & backrooms, they go where they can. They didn't learn their craft in a book sing at someone's home at the foot of a book singer, you don't learn anying that artistic at the foot of a booker, you have to go out & do as they do, you learn from them that already learnt. A beginner teaching a beginner is the same as the blind leading the blind. Go get a dog you're better off learning how to howl from your heart at least you'd be as good as the dog & who else could do it better?
If someone had pulled out a book this afternoon they would have killed that sing dead in it's track, it probably would have picked right back up & recovered but if it happened a few times the place would've emptied out. Even those that were beginners would've been disappointed, they came to sing with those that could & would, to hear those they they could enjoy & join, they came to be apart of what was happening to be emergied & engulfed in a "social event" that was 'musical', not a "social event" that was 'verbal'. I don't care if people drown in RUS or if it spreads like a field on fire, maybe some of the folks will get past the book & go further but if they can't get past that or they don't want to go further, great, just don't try & bring them to where they're "not needed", keep them in their proper place. "A place for everything & everything in it's place"!

Now that comment above about folk singing being learned at home or in neighbor's homes. As far as I have known this was usually done, depending on your local, in kitchens or on porches, done by rural folks & city folk but I can't for the life of me ever recall any mention of book learning being part of the social equation. What I mostly hear of is it being passed on over time from the older to the younger, being passed down in families, at least in the living tradition. Now if we're talking about a dead tradition RUS would be what I'd think of immediately.

Like Mg, Ron & others, if I see a couple RUS's in sight, I'm not even gonna enter the room, no I'm not a song snob as anyone on mudcat can attest to that's knows me. I love to see songs get passed on to newbie's & beginners as well as seeing songs make the rounds among the good singers too but what I love to see & hear the most is young people learning to fly, getting their wings, having fun right from the start & never looking back. Bill D & Rita's Darrel (as well as Rita too), I've watched from going to the Getaways. He was sproutting his wings there & then started leading off a few songs at different workshops, then he was off & running, he's taken lead in a few workshops, that's a wonderful thing. We had a late teen (I think he's still a teen) at the shanty blast who joined his father & another adult singer, the 3 sang harmonies on the verses while everyone joined in on the choruses but he was great. He's been singing with his mother & father for some time now but his ear in amazing for finding & keeping harmonies. His mind is like a song trap, he remebers eveyone's songs. He popped in this afternoon with the words to a verse I was missing/fogeeting while singing but back to the point, he learned within ear shot/range of other singers & he'll be one who will continue the song sessions (I doubt you'll ever hear or see him at a book session). Watching kids like this take over is what makes it best for me. If his parents sang from books,,,,,,,,,,
Anyway, if RUS had been were I was when I was learnig to sprout wings I would never have even bothered to flap & the shame of it is that RUS is where I learnt to flap my wings & now it's a sad thing to see that they can't even keep any flegglings besides those with a broken wing cuz they have no need to fly. They have no disire to flap, they are happy enough to stay in the nest & be force fed. Well, each to their own, I guess, stay happy.

Barry

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: M.Ted
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 03:49 PM

Here's a relatively new verse to one of everyone's favorite John Prine songs. It's on his the album, "More of the Same" from a few years back.

Dear Abby, Dear Abby,
please tell me what cooks
the hooters at hoots
are all singing from books
The strummers can't strum
cause they don't know the chords
And when I start off Lord Randall
they all just look bored
Signed, Folksinger

Folksinger, folksinger, you have no complaint
You are what you are and you ain't what you
ain't
So listen up buster and listen up good
Stop wishin' for bad luck and knockin' on
wood

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 03:49 PM

Fair enough.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Ref
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 03:47 PM

Yeah, well, maybe we'd best wrap this up with a hearty "To each is own!" You're entitled to your groups and me to mine, and it looks like the twain are not destined to meet any time soon.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 02:28 PM

Ron Davies' description at 03 Jan 09 - 09:30 a.m. was also a pretty good description of the kind of song fests we have around here, but we're probably more into traditional songs and less C&W. But whatever turns your crank. And there are no copies of RUS or any other song books in evidence. This is not a rule. It's that nobody wants to use them except to learn songs from—and then they put them back on the shelf. Everybody is singing from memory, and if anyone is using song sheets or notes, it certainly isn't evident. If someone blows a verse, as Ron D. said, nobody cares, and someone will probably feed them the next line.

And sometimes it turns into a belly laugh. Once, Walt was singing "The Fox" and apparently got distracted somehow. He woke up singing "He ran till he came to—?" What? "Great big pen?" Or "his cozy den?" He didn't know where he was in the song. "And here I sit," he said, "with the words all dangling down-o!" Everybody wound up rolling on the floor, laughing.

The group I speak of consists of a bunch of people, a few left who were going to similar song fests ("hoots") in the early 1950s and who are still at it, plus an accumulation of many new people over the decades. Not to mention the offspring of some of the originals. Some have sung professionally, some still are singing professionally, some just sing for fun, and some folks are newbies in various stages of development. The full spectrum of ambitions and abilities. These are not formal, scheduled meetings. No dues, no Bored of Directors, no minutes, and no planned structure. We just get together and sing. And except for the occasional times when the host may invite specific people and only those people (a special event or limited space), these song fest are pretty much open to anyone who is interested. Newbies are definitely welcome.

We do not sit around in a circle, we grab a chair or sit on the floor (the host doesn't need to rearrange the furniture or rent a bunch of folding chairs), and we don't sing in any kind of strict rotation. But nobody gets shoved into a corner and ignored, and nobody takes over and dominates. We want to sing, but we also want to hear others sing. Some people don't necessarily want to sing, they're there to listen and enjoy. But usually several times in the afternoon or evening, someone will ask them, "Hey, Nancy, you got anything?" And if Nancy wants to sing, she does; if not, she doesn't. Everybody there gets a chance.

Limiting what we do to sitting around singing out of RUS or any other song book would kill these song fests.

And Ref, no one would bar you from these song fests or make you feel unwelcome. But you might feel a bit uncomfortable singing with your nose in a book while everyone else is singing from memory. Including the ten-year-old boy who just did a bravura rendition of "The Rhyme of the Chivalrous Shark"—from memory.

Ref, you may not have a tenacious memory, and that's too bad. But as far as time is concerned, it takes less than half an hour to copy the words from a record. Sometimes you don't need to write down the words, because you have that song, compete with words, in a song book. But I find that the act of writing the words helps to learn the song. And the rest of learning the song occurs at times when you are not involve in anything that needs your attention, such as riding to work on the bus or sitting in the dentist's waiting room.

Have you tried any of the things I suggest at 02 Jan 09 - 05:35 p.m.? Particularly the bit about trying to recite the words to a song, or sing it in you head while you're lying in bed waiting to fall asleep? It works. Granted, it may not work for you, but have you even tried it?

And Ref, this is not directed at you, it's a general statement. But I have generally noted that if someone is really interested in something, no matter how busy their lives might be, they will find the time.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 01:31 PM

"I'm glad I wasn't at your New Years Eve party--sound like no one knew anything that had more than three chords--"

I was NOT at that gathering, but I'd guess I know most of who was....and they know a lot more than that! *grin*

(yes, I'm still sorta following this discussion, though I can't say I can add much more.)

I was at a smaller party, where we did sing a bit...(I only did one..."Oak & Ash & Thorn"...and a few odd little things when my memory was stirred)....but no one even thought of using a book, and the only paper was when someone was begged to repeat the "Obama's Irish" parody.

Last night was the Open Sing, and I was tired and stayed home....and I really didn't have a good song on the topic (Dreams & Dreaming)...but my wife went and they had a good time.

.....all I can say is that it seems to me that singing goes better when folks are more familiar with what they are singing. If most are NOT, it can get really, really tedious. Everyone had a different 'threshold of pain' for the situation, and they have to choose.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: M.Ted
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 01:11 PM

Ron Davies--

I'm glad I wasn't at your New Years Eve party--sound like no one knew anything that had more than three chords--

And, with the exception of "White Christmas", put all those songs together and you still wouldn't have had one good melody--

And nothing with any beat to it, let alone any swing. Even cockroaches die on a diet of white bread--

Any decent guitarist would have left the room screaming after five minutes.

And to use the words "serious music" any where near the words "autoharp" and "ukulele", well...

And I'm sorry, but where does folk music come in? Anyone who knew or loved folk music would have spent the evening vomiting in the bathroom.

And I'm sorry, but you where was the real Hawai'ian music?--there's a ton of of good Hawaiian music out there, and all you know is one racially offensive John Prine song--Next you're going to be singing, "I'm Kumonawannalaya"--

Maybe the reason that "talented" people don't go to FSGW events anymore is that they were weirded out because you were obsessed with their feet--

And speaking of FSGW, maybe people just got tired of hearing the same songs that they'd been hearing since the year one-

Sung by people who hadn't changed their clothes since the year one-

But seriously, I've seen better dressed people begging for drug money at the bus station-

Do you want to know why people started using Rise Up Singing at folk events?

Cause finally, someone said, "If I I hear "Mattie Groves" one more time, you'll end up like Mattie Groves."

Badda-bing.


All in meant in good fun, of course--and submitted just to show that no matter how good you are, someone can find something to take a shot at, if they have a mind to--without even mentioning Neville Chamberlain.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Ron Davies
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 01:10 PM

Still as stubborn as ever.   And to top it off, you RUS defenders don't seem to have heard of the concept of mentoring.   If you drive your mentors away, which you do by RUS hymn sings, who will teach tips on playing and singing, put in verses not in "the book", etc.?
As I said, the foundation of any folk community is people who know what they are doing--and are willing to teach and share it.

They will not be attracted by RUS mumbling of the 7th and 8th verses of "This Land is Your Land"--nor will they stay if RUS is the centerpiece of your singaround.

Somehow, I suspect people who don't realize this don't actually sing or play. Who knows, maybe they just spin records.

Though some DJ's--like Dick Spottswood--would back my views to the hilt.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 11:28 AM

Well, it was an interesting discussion until you resorted to these tactics Ron D.

I think you need to define what you consider "folk community".

To answer your question, the use of RUS in folklore society singagrounds neither helps or hurts the event. The answer is obvious for the reasons that I and others have stated.   No surprise that YOU refuse to admit it.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: goatfell
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 11:28 AM

so much for encouraging new people to sessions and clubs, by saying that they are not allowed to bring their songbooks/songsheets, well if you don't like it then don't come.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Ron Davies
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 11:16 AM

If you do not think better musicians are the foundation of a folk community, you are, yet again, and unsurprisingly, deluding yourself yet again--and I'd hate to attend any gathering sponsored by you.

It's touching how you think "folk music is sung in homes" answers any question. Na und? Nice try in distraction. I have more than once pointed out it's great RUS is used in homes. That is not the issue.

The question is a very narrow one.   Does RUS use in folklore society singarounds help or hurt those singarounds?

The answer is obvious--and for the reasons I and others have stated.

No surprise you refuse to admit it.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 11:13 AM

"Yet again, RUS is a fine book. Just not in folklore society singarounds. "

As a blanket statement covering every "folklore society" sing, I do not think it is fair to say that.

If he folklore society can run it without it being used, fine. If they are able to encourage others and make them feel comfortable, fine.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Ron Davies
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 11:08 AM

"build community", specifically in folklore societies. I can certainly imagine RUS builds community in nursing homes, kids camps' and similar situations.   That is not the question.

Yet again, RUS is a fine book. Just not in folklore society singarounds.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 11:05 AM

"And the better musicians--which are the foundations of any folk community-- are never content with RUS sessions."

No, "better musicians" are the foundations of a performing community. Folk music is sung in homes, at work and play. Folk music is not an exhibition, except since the "folk revival" where it was altered. The song circles that we are talking about found their roots then, and they continue to evolve. Yes, some now use books - hopefully not as the sole source. Hopefully people can begin singing without crutches again, but I pity those who feel a need to rally against it to satisfy some sort of issue they are having.


"So RUS "building community" is a complete canard."

Obviously your opinion has been shown to be false based on a number of posts and experiences shared on this thread.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 10:59 AM

Ron D - your opinion has been noted. I have submitted your "evidence" and you have submitted yours. I disagree with you, and so do others.

I've never said that RUS should be the sole source at sings, and I think it you really look for "evidence", you will find these sings are few and far between - and, they are not meant for people like you.    The book does serve a very good purpose and you are being delusional if you question that.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Ron Davies
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 10:56 AM

"whereever people have better options"--and in fact that's everywhere. Just sitting on your porch and inviting a few people over is better than singing out of RUS--unless you are content with the RUS experience.

And the better musicians--which are the foundations of any folk community-- are never content with RUS sessions.

So RUS "building community" is a complete canard.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Ron Davies
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 10:46 AM

Obviously, there are some good singers and players who attend--like Bill D. But I suspect that for them the FSGW session is not the priority it once was.

And that is directly traceable to RUS use.

Scads of good music is still being made--just not at RUS singarounds.

There is still a vibrant "folk community". But whereever there are other options, RUS is not involved.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Ron Davies
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 10:39 AM

1) Direct quotes, please.

2)   If you read the same posts, you find admissions of lousy musical experiences. Nowhere near as likely without RUS.

3) Since the better musicians are driven away by RUS, the experience without them is likely to be inferior to a session with such musicians.


If you have never been to a session full of very talented people who were only too willing to share--as used to be the norm in FSGW sessions--you do not have enough data to comment with credibility. And I suspect this is the case.

I remember sitting at the feet of wonderful singers and instrumentalists at FSGW sessions.   With RUS, that will never happen again--since they just don't attend.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 10:29 AM

Ron D. - as I said before, read some of the posts on this very thread. That is the answer. IF you need some guidance, may I recommend posts from Janie, Goatfell, Joe Offer's description of the Sacramento Song Circle, Ref, Mted and others.   Even some of the people who are arguing against the use of the book (Don and Barry) mention song circles that use them, but have been going on for decades! How can a song circle survive for so long if NO ONE is enjoying it?

You are the one who is being delusional if you are ignorning all this "evidence". Sheesh. Lighten up. This is supposed to be a discussion, not a high school debate.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Ron Davies
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 10:07 AM

Fine. So let's have that "evidence"--that RUS use at folklore society singarounds "builds community".   That is the question.

Direct quotes please---not links.

And this is not "personal"--any defender of RUS use at singarounds is welcome to answer.


I can tell you that such use in the FSGW singaround has resulted in a huge dropoff in quality. And even people who still go to such meetings--like Bill D--confirm this.

But again, I am certainly not trying to suppress such use of RUS--by anybody who is content with that experience. I am just pointing out it does not "build community" in folklore societies.   And people who think it does are deluding themselves. Sorry if RUS advocates don't like that term.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 09:56 AM

Ron Davies - you are putting up a smokescreen and trying to turn this personal. I have given as much "evidence" as you have to support your opinion. To everyone reading this thread it looks like you are ignoring "evidence" that doesn't support your opinion and trying to insult those who do not agree with you. There is no need to call us "delusional".

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: goatfell
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 09:45 AM

Well these people that don't like people like me that uses songbooks and songsheets, well why don't you start up a session and make it quite clear that you can only join if you don't use any form of musicbooks/songsheets and let the rest of us enjoy ourselves because in time you will be lonely.

because hardly anyone will come to your 'sessions'

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Ron Davies
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 09:30 AM

"...a sorry case".    Right.   There seem to be some people here who have a vehement dislike to being asked for evidence--for anything. They are also the people who defend the use of RUS in folklore society singarounds, on the basis that it "builds community"--despite the copious evidence on this thread and others was that the main result of such use is to drive the better singers away from folklore society singarounds.

I went to a fabulous music party on New Years eve. We sang and played virtually nonstop from about 9 to 2--while also eating and drinking. "Pompous performers"?---not likely. The general theme was C & W--but we sang anything we felt like--starting with "White Christmas" and "Blue Christmas" and including "Let's Talk Dirty in Hawaiian". "Pretty Boy Floyd", "Palms of Victory", "Bottle of Wine", as well as a boatload of C & W including "Crystal Chandeliers", "Before the Ring on Your Finger Turns Green", "Yard Sale", and a big bunch more. We had an autoharp, a ukulele, basses, a viola, and some excellent guitarists.

One of the many reasons the party was a smash was that RUS was nowhere in evidence.

We actually knew what we were doing--and if somebody forgot a verse, nobody cared. We helped each other out with words from time to time. We laughed, talked, teased each other--in general a fantastic time.


Similarly, one of the reasons the Getaway is a rousing success is that it is not an RUS singaround. If it were, that would kill it faster than anything.

The use of that book at a singaround is far more pernicious than a personal little book of lyrics or a sheet with a few cue words---and for the reason I cited---that it makes it far too easy for the singer to make no effort to actually learn a song--and still expect the group to sing it.

And, as has been indicated, we who oppose RUS in singarounds do not call the other side "jerks", just deluded.   Chamberlain was not a jerk when he came back from Munich with "Peace In Our Time"---but he was deluded.



I suspect that even in Albuquerque good music is being made.   But it is being made outside of RUS singarounds.

It depends on what you are content with. If you are content with what comes out of an RUS singaround, that's fine. More power to you.

But those of us who like music--and are serious enough about it to want to make our own music--do not want RUS brought to our groups.

There is ample evidence that RUS use in singarounds does nothing but dumb down the experience--by driving the better musicians away.

Even when the RUS singaround is "successful", it may not be due to the book.   At one gathering I go to in PA which is a "successful" RUS singaround, the success is due to one person who is not only an excellent guitarist, but willing to lead every song if need be. Without him, the singaround would immediately collapse. And you can bet he does not need the book.

In fact I taught that group a song they still love--long before RUS even appeared on the scene.   The song is now in the book--but nobody needs the book to sing it, obviously.

It seems fairly obvious that people who actually sing and play --and have experienced both RUS-dominated sings and those without RUS-- may possibly know more about
this topic than somebody, who, for instance, just runs his own radio program.

And again, as I've said before, nobody on this thread thinks RUS is a bad book.   It is fine for the use described in the opening article--to introduce kids to "folk music" in a very broad sense--at home.

Or for adults to use as one of many sources---at home.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: artbrooks
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 12:10 AM

I guess that the conclusion is that some people like it, some people hate it and some people think it is an acceptable, if maybe less than desirable, alternative. However, many of you are speaking from places where there are alternatives - as in, "the 2nd Friday group uses the Blue Book, so I'll skip that and go to the 3rd Saturday group". Consider yourselves part of the lucky minority. Here in Albuquerque, there is one...count 'em, one...song circle. RUS is heavily, but not exclusively, used. I doubt that 25% of the people there know everything they sing/lead well enough to do so without a cheat sheet of some kind. BUT, they are having fun singing together. It beats singing in the shower by a good deal. If I were the sort of person who casts aspersions at others, I might be tempted to say something like "elitist snobs", but I'm not so I won't.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: astro
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 11:32 PM

Don,

Thanks for your recipe for learning songs. As a newbie, any advice is helpful, especially helpful advice! Thanks for your post. I'll use it not only with singing but with my beginning mandolin.

Thanks again, Don

Astro

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 11:26 PM

Very good point Dick, you are correct and I was wrong in my earlier statement. Your mention of Sarah Cleveland got me to thinking about other families such as the Coppers who wrote down books and I am also recalling other families whose family notebooks were sought after by collectors.

I do agree that Sacred Harp is a very rigid style, but the emotions generated and purpose of the gatherings are very similar to folk sings in a social sense.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 11:20 PM

"I think we all have the desire to be polite to that one individual who sings off key or songs we don't like or whatever. But then are 4 and then 7 and then 10 and in inverse proportion people leave."

You are describing ANY social group, it doesn't matter about the song. Insert "off key", "songs we don't like", or "the blue book" and you can find a reason to not wish to participate. Sure, these reasons may have some validity to a group - but again it comes back to the purpose of the group.   You say that they can set up "their own song circles or groups where they set it up exactly like they like it and others are free to join them or set up something else entirely again" - well, that is what happened to your group because no one wished to discuss it. The group was set up exactly the way they like it, and no one else raised their voice.

The "critical mass" IS the group.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 11:19 PM

Ron-
Actually, the folk have been writing down songs for a long long time--for personal use, rather than for publication. Sarah Cleveland had an extensive collection; words were written down in sailor's logbooks and the Appalachian collectors frequently noted that their sources used written-down words (As I recall, Jean Thomas called them "Song Ballets"

Sacred Harp singing --a rigidly arranged choral style-- and hymn singing are, really, qualitatively different from folk song gatherings. Or at least they used to be.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: catspaw49
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 11:19 PM

First post after thread began:

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Animaterra - PM
Date: 26 Dec 08 - 08:19 AM

Whatever its flaws, it serves a vital purpose and has been a marvelous tool to get people singing! Thanks for the link, Peter!

Allison


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Second post:

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: catspaw49 - PM
Date: 26 Dec 08 - 10:02 AM

The problem with RUS is not the book but more in the way it came to be used. The bible has the same problem. Its used by Episcopalians and Fundamentalists alike but in one case it is THE ONE AND ONLY LAW and the other more of a suggestion.{:<)))

Getting folks singing is good.......No room for interpretation is bad.

Spaw

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: mg
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 11:04 PM

it isn't one person who is the problem. It is a critical mass of people or the tipping point or whatever. I think we all have the desire to be polite to that one individual who sings off key or songs we don't like or whatever. But then are 4 and then 7 and then 10 and in inverse proportion people leave. The tipping point was long ago reached in many groups. It is not their fault..they don't know...and people will leave the group rather than bring up the subject of the elephant with the blue book in the living room. No one begrudges them their own song circles or groups where they set it up exactly like they like it and others are free to join them or set up something else entirely again.    mg

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 11:04 PM

"Ron, people have been writing down songs for a helluva lot longer than 100 years. "

Of course. I did not write that correctly - what I was trying to say was that people were not transmitting songs in a written fashion as a rule. Certainly collectors and others were writing down songs, but the "oral tradition" that everyone discusses signifies that songs were learned by word of mouth - in community life, work, etc. Those events were far different than what we are discussing as "sings".

So if we all agree that there is "more" to music than singing in a book - what about events like Sacred Harp? It is not the same as a sing, BUT there is a purpose that is very similar.

While I agree with everyone who says that a "book" should not be a bible, we are still only hearing opinions about the so-called "problems" with using books.   On the other hand, we have also heard a number of statments from people who do use books and find it helpful to overcome lack of knowledge about the songs, shyness, forgetfullness, etc.   It still boils down to everyone having the option to do their own thing.

Dick, I do agree with you and others who have attended sessions where the book is the only item used and the rules are set. Those events serve a different purpose and you and the rest do not belong there.

By the way - some people have been referring to the blue book as "the bible". When you think about it, even the New and Old Testament Bible is argued about and interpreted in different ways by different groups. Hopefully there is room for everyone to do as they please and not worry so much about what the other group is doing.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 10:49 PM

Ron, people have been writing down songs for a helluva lot longer than 100 years.
There's nothing fundamentally wrong with a songbook. There is something wrong with limiting what a group does to what's "in the book". At singarounds I've attended (only once each, though) each song was prefaced by a page number announcement; alternate or addition verses were the objects of attack, and even questions like "what key are we doing this in?" were answered by what it said in the Blue Bible.

There's really more to music than having a group sing in (hopefully) unison with their eyes glued to a page.

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Ref
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 08:36 PM

People learn and remember in different ways, and some people have difficulty with memorization. So your response is that anyone who can't memorize the same way you do is just not welcome in your singing group? You have no space for someone who loves to sing but lacks the capacity or, in this busy world, the time to memorize songs? How does this compare to the aforementioned "twerp" who refuses to countenance a song or verse that "isn't in the book?"

Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Deckman
Date: 02 Jan 09 - 08:14 PM

Hey ... I WAS THERE A HUNDRED YEARS ... i think? bob