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homage to Rise Up Singing

DigiTrad:
NOT IN THE BOOK


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In defense of RUS (4)


M.Ted 28 Dec 08 - 02:42 AM
Barry Finn 28 Dec 08 - 02:18 AM
Farley Buckwheat 27 Dec 08 - 11:55 PM
Ref 27 Dec 08 - 11:05 PM
M.Ted 27 Dec 08 - 10:59 PM
M.Ted 27 Dec 08 - 10:58 PM
katlaughing 27 Dec 08 - 09:47 PM
Stringsinger 27 Dec 08 - 09:18 PM
EBarnacle 27 Dec 08 - 09:13 PM
Joe Offer 27 Dec 08 - 09:10 PM
catspaw49 27 Dec 08 - 08:03 PM
Ref 27 Dec 08 - 07:07 PM
Bill D 27 Dec 08 - 06:43 PM
Stewart 27 Dec 08 - 05:03 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 27 Dec 08 - 04:47 PM
goatfell 27 Dec 08 - 03:51 PM
Don Firth 27 Dec 08 - 03:43 PM
katlaughing 27 Dec 08 - 01:22 PM
Stewart 27 Dec 08 - 12:31 PM
GUEST,MAG at work 27 Dec 08 - 12:21 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 27 Dec 08 - 12:04 PM
JohnB 27 Dec 08 - 11:49 AM
billhudson 27 Dec 08 - 11:42 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 27 Dec 08 - 11:34 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 27 Dec 08 - 11:32 AM
Bill D 27 Dec 08 - 11:22 AM
Bill D 27 Dec 08 - 11:21 AM
Deckman 27 Dec 08 - 11:16 AM
Bill D 27 Dec 08 - 11:14 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 27 Dec 08 - 11:13 AM
Bill D 27 Dec 08 - 11:07 AM
Bill D 27 Dec 08 - 11:04 AM
Midchuck 27 Dec 08 - 10:58 AM
EBarnacle 27 Dec 08 - 10:58 AM
billhudson 27 Dec 08 - 10:44 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 27 Dec 08 - 10:27 AM
goatfell 27 Dec 08 - 09:50 AM
Peter T. 27 Dec 08 - 09:29 AM
Haruo 27 Dec 08 - 02:10 AM
Stilly River Sage 27 Dec 08 - 01:03 AM
Barry Finn 27 Dec 08 - 12:50 AM
Don Firth 27 Dec 08 - 12:35 AM
Joe Offer 27 Dec 08 - 12:09 AM
katlaughing 26 Dec 08 - 11:55 PM
Joe Offer 26 Dec 08 - 10:48 PM
artbrooks 26 Dec 08 - 10:14 PM
PoppaGator 26 Dec 08 - 10:13 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 26 Dec 08 - 10:13 PM
catspaw49 26 Dec 08 - 09:56 PM
Stewart 26 Dec 08 - 09:56 PM
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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: M.Ted
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 02:42 AM

The great orchestras all have great conductors--if the best musical aggregations need solid direction, it's a cinch that all the lower levels need it too--that's what's missing--someone that knows what they're doing has to take charge, and, folkies being what they are, they have to do it without anyone feeling like they are taking charge;-)


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Barry Finn
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 02:18 AM

I just got home from what was supposed to be a "singing party". There were about 12 people there, all singing off key & reading Christmas Caroles from books, including RUS. No one knew any songs through that they could lead so there were 12 leaders, following along the best they could, even doing a Beatles Christmas song & they passed out the prints of it & still couldn't get it right, they were bleeding where it overlaps. It was horrid & awfully boring. I lasted 20 horrid minutes & left after I ate a piece of the pie I brought.
So they can continue to read there songs but hell will freeze over before I go to another Folk Song Society "singing party". They were so bad that even there own regular members (I'm a member but not a regular, for this reason) can't find it within themselves to support there own sings, that's bloody bad. I haven been too one of these parties in yrs & I went thinking it might be a good time, it'll be a good number of yrs before I go again. This society IMHO has been in this rough shape for along time & it pains me cause that's where I cut my teeth more than 30 yrs ago when it had spirit, flavor, blood & folks kept at bringing in new material & they were incestious about the different genres they sang & played, now all it has are wrinkles & notes to read from. You can keep your books & sings from your pages, I want one song to lead to another, spontainiouly with without having to turn a page, I want folks that can lead me in a rousting chorus without fucking it up just as it gets going, I want to hear harmony without gritting me teeth to someone who's off key, with spirit & gusto, that's what makes beginners want to really lea4rn their material & contribute, that's what encourages newbies to find songs that they haven't heard others sing, that's what gives the song life & blood ortherwise it's just a excerise in voice usage & the strong & better singers that you want around don't have the time for that kind of shit.

Barry, who'llgetoveritbytomorrowbutstillwon'tattendanother musicalrecitalagain


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Farley Buckwheat
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 11:55 PM

.

I visited a singing a few years ago that did not last long. A couple of singers had RUS, but any song was allowed. Along comes a guy with an electric guitar who totally did not get the idea. His idea was to turn on his amp and a whole string of little black boxes while he strove for a sound exactly like Eric Clapton, with no regard with what everybody else was doing. Pretty much killed the fun for everybody.

If there had been ground rules, maybe this situation could have been avoided and the group would have continued. Having an agreed-upon songboook can provide such a set of ground rules. RUS serves this purpose well.

I still talk to the lady who started this group.   She started it because she liked having people over. It was about socializing as much as it was about music.

It seems to me that the spirit behind RUS has an implicit social element as well as a musical one.

.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Ref
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 11:05 PM

Some words of great wisdom from Ron, EBarnacle, Joe, and MTed. Some of us are NOT obsessed with being perceived as great performers.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: M.Ted
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 10:59 PM

Someone we know and love put forth that "All God's critters got a place in the choir"--If they don't, it ain't folk music. Seems to me, it's in RUS.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: M.Ted
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 10:58 PM

We wouldn't be able to do any sort of research as to the age and origins of "folk songs" were it not for old songbooks, and one suspects that to one degree or another, they were sung from, probably with the same bickering going on that we experience now.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 09:47 PM

The definitive answer was back in C'Spaw98, line RF5, but only if you have the right key which you will find in the WSCDYW12976 of AT99.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Stringsinger
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 09:18 PM

I call it "Rise Up Squinting".

Frank


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: EBarnacle
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 09:13 PM

Going back to the point about professional musicians, when did it become de rigeur for folkies to play without music? Every other kind of musician is comfortable and acceptable with the music and words in front of them. Is it an ego thing?


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 09:10 PM

    A group sing or song-circle should not be considered a "performance". -Ron Olesko-

Ron, that's the best point that's been made in the thread so far. I'm a pretty good singer, but I get intimidated in song circles by people who think of themselves as "performers." We have a sometime participant who considers the Sacramento Song Circle a "venue," and he doesn't seem to know who to sing or play with other people.

On the other hand, I sing in another song circle with Dick Holdstock and Allan MacLeod, who are pretty notable performers - but they make every participant in the circle feel special, even those of us who sing from "cheat sheets.".

Thanks for the insight.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: catspaw49
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 08:03 PM

Hey PT.....Now that you got the capo, the simplest version is B27 and capo 3. I'd go that route if I were you.

And for those wanting Bill's argument in the simplest form, use B/D 12-8 and capo clear up on 7.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Ref
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 07:07 PM

Ridiculous to argue about. I generally agree with Ron. If you don't like RUS, DON'T USE IT! I don't go singing without it, and wouldn't enjoy singing with any group so pedantic as to demand I do without. It doesn't stop me from learning songs not in RUS (some of them by (GASP) singer-songwriters), it just provides an easy fall-back and avoids awkward silences. I'm there for the music, after all.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 06:43 PM

*smile* Stewart.. a lady who 'sometimes' comes to our sings is totally blind also. She knows a whole bunch of songs, but sometimes needs help, just like the guy Don F. mentioned.
   She carries a big cloth bag...and in it is her cheat-sheet...in Braille! The funny part is that she hates to be 'seen' using it, so she sits, the bag in her lap, with her hand inside the bag, 'reading' along. She does remarkably well, too..(I can close my eyes and 'usually' not tell)... No one ever mentions that it looks stranger to see that hand rustling in her bag than if she just took the Braille sheets out.
    The whole point is, that she DOES know the songs, and just needs some reminders.

   There is really no clear & obvious 'line' that can be drawn where fun & discomfort diverge , as this is different for everyone, and if I can close my eyes and not tell, then fine....but when someone cannot follow a song, even with a book, they are past the line for me. If they can follow the tune and sing the words without stopping and reading ahead, they are right on the line: even if it is stilted and dull, I will shrug and wait.
    All I usually do anyway is try to set a good example and drop hints...but there IS a small movement growing to make some sort of announcement...maybe printed in the newsletter...suggesting gently that our 'tradition' is to avoid books...and especially THE book...most of the time.

   We shall, as they say, see.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Stewart
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 05:03 PM

I met my friend Jim at the Seattle Song Circle some years ago. At first he would just pass. He seemed very shy, and he was. Sometimes he would request a song for others to sing, but that was all. A while later I befriended him and encouraged him in his music.

He later came to Rainy Camp (a Seattle Song Circle weekend retreat) and I heard him sing a song. He amazed me as he did quite well. I then brought him with me to the Victory Music open mic, which he seemed to enjoy.

After much persuasion I finally got him to perform at the open mic. Since then he has just blossomed, and is now doing his own gigs. Later this spring he will open for Hank Cramer at the Haller Lake Community Center (north Seattle) where I produce concerts for the Haller Lake Arts Council.

The point is, he began by coming to a song circle, but used that experience to grow musically.

I've never seen him use the RUS book. Maybe it's because he is totally blind. But Jim doesn't give up, he just decides what he wants to do, and does it.

Cheers, S. in Seattle


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 04:47 PM

"learning a song or two is hardly "an exhibition of skills." Children do it all the time."

So explain why adults forget songs. It isn't an easy skill for everyone, especially when you are put in the position of "leader". As you noted "the chances are that the strong, more experience singers probably won't be in evidence" - well, maybe that is the lesser of two evils. I would sooner see someone walk off because their ego and skill level is above a community sing than have someone who is uncomfortable with singing be made to feel foolish for their lack of understanding.

Don, the situation you described at Northwest Folklife is more of a performance since you noted that the staunch singer was facing the audience. It is one thing if you are singing for an an audience that is expecting some sort of "performance", but the sings that I have been used to are more informal and the participation is the draw, not the outcome of the music.

They have been using books for Sacred Harp singing and there doesn't seem to be an issue there.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: goatfell
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 03:51 PM

I remeber saying all the stuff as mr firth, and i got kicked in the teeth by some of the 'people' that use the mudcat cafe.

there are some 'people' that don't approve of songbooks or whatever at sessions/folk clubs, but the difference between them and me is that they sing the same old songs week in week out wehreas I try a new song every week/fornight that's all, I try and sing a new song every time I go to a session/folkclub.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 03:43 PM

Ron, learning a song or two is hardly "an exhibition of skills." Children do it all the time.

And lighten up, Goatfell. Nobody said what you said they said.

The point here is not whether one person with a dicey memory needs to use song sheets, it's about the whole group. If you need them, well, okay, use them.

In fact, at the Coffeehouse Reunion Concert at the 2003 Northwest Folklife Festival ("Geezers' Concert") one of this area's more staunch singers walked up to the mic with a three-ring binder, confessed that his memory for a lot of the songs was not as good as it used to be, and he put the binder on a music stand and opened it. No problem. The thing was, however, that he didn't stand there with the binder in front of his face, he looked at the audience as he always had, and whenever he felt a lapse of memory coming on, he would glance quickly at the song sheet without interrupting the song, and keep right on going.

Basically, he knew the songs. He just needed an occasional cue. He wasn't reading off a song he didn't already know.

I can see some merit in this. I think it's much better, as someone alluded to above, to have a song sheet within eyeshot, if needed from time to time, than it is to put an audience through the discomfort of waiting for you to come up with the next line while watching you stare at the ceiling as if trying to find the lyrics written somewhere up there.

There is some high-powered precedence for having music or song sheets handy. I noticed that on "The Three Tenors" special over public television (Luciano Pavarotti, Placido Domingo, and José Carreras), there was a music stand in front of each of these powerhouse singers. Dark orchestral stands so they were unobtrusive, place about waist high, not blocking the view, but where each singer could see his just by glancing down.

Now, all three of them have sung hundreds of concerts and recitals, and dozens of operatic roles. They have memorized full-length operas and hundreds of songs and arias. Yet—even they are subject to the occasional memory lapse. That's why, during an opera performance, there is someone with a copy of the score sitting in the prompter's box out of sight of the audience. And in recital, the pianist is there to quietly feed them a line if necessary. Or the conductor if the accompaniment is orchestral. The singer usually stands fairly close to the conductor, who has the score right there in front of him.

Hence, the music stands. The three tenors were going to be singing a couple of dozen songs of various kinds during the concert, and since it was in front of a large live audience and it was being televised nationally (taped "live" to be played repeatedly, especially during public television pledge breaks), having the music in front of them—just in case—was preferable to working without a net.

During the whole program, I think I saw them glance at the stands maybe four or five times altogether, but this was usually between songs during the applause, probably asking themselves "Okay, what's next?" They knew the songs they were singing, they were certainly not just singing them from the music.

Singing out of books, or even one specific agreed-upon book:    okay, if that's what a group of people want to get together and do, then fine. Do it. It's a free country. The Constitution gives you the right of Freedom of Assembly.

But as Barry pointed out above, and for the reasons stated by Midchuck just above, the chances are that the strong, more experience singers probably won't be in evidence.

Don Firth

P. S. Let me reiterate:    There is nothing wrong with song books, song sheets, or music stands. It's the way they are sometimes used.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 01:22 PM

BillDarlin'...when I finally meet you, you will close your eyes and listen and will not be able to tell I may be using my songbook (not RUS, my own!):-)

Seems to me Spaw made the most sense...poor ol' RUS has been mis-used. Since I've never lived where I could go to a regular session, once i found out about such things, I haven't had much chance, except on PalTalk, to practice songs as I don't enjoy doing it much for just myself. However, I grew up singing and playing all of the time. Were I to start going to sessions, I would start out with a few songs memorised and share them, but I would also want my songbook with me just for reference and, if I were trying out a new song. If that is too much of a crutch for some *purists* then I'd have to find a different session.

Oddly enough, with playing, I'd not expect a book at all unless I were playing classical violin. Folk, etc. is all by ear for me on the dulcimore and fiddle. Again, I'd be sure I'd practised and hope I did a good job, but I'd also appreciate trying out new tunes and getting input.

Seems to me there ought to be some room for compromise, understanding, patience, etc. What would you tell someone who was elderly, still able to sing, etc., but couldn't remember the words? I sent RUS to my dad when he was in his 80s. He and I had never heard of it. He enjoyed refreshing his memory with it, though he had the sense not to take it for "gospel" and he was able to remember the words once he'd re-read them. Of course, with his standard playlist, he had no problem, save using 3 X 5 cards with the song titles to prompt his memory. I don't own RUS, but I do wish his widow had sent his copy back to me. I wouldn't mind having a copy.

Joe, agree! NO books, etc at a campfire!:-)

Anyone remember the ancient thread we had on our own songbooks and what kind of paper, etc. we preferred to print them on and bind them? It was a neat thread and I would refresh it if I could find it. I know Bert posted to it, may have started it, and Alice told us about her thermal fax paper in the shower, but I'll be danged if I can find it!

Thanks,

kat


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Stewart
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 12:31 PM

"Only the mediocre are always at their best."

I enjoy the challenge of singing and playing
with musicians who are better than I.
We welcome all levels of singers and players
in our house jams if they are interested
in improving their musical abilities.
It is great to see people improve.
And we have a lot of fun in the process.

Cheers, S. in Seattle


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: GUEST,MAG at work
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 12:21 PM

Open Mike, there was indeed a previous version of RUS with a b&w cover and a spiral binding, and no attributes given.

I used to have a copy which I gave away. The story was it was put out by some more radical Quakers who just wanted some lyrics sheets for group singing.

MAG, whose home computer is frozen for some reason.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 12:04 PM

JohnB - what you have described is a big error in judgement on the part of the organizers of the Celtic College. Apparently they do a nice job of dividing up the classes for beginner, intermediate and advanced - but then they throw everyone in the pot for the song circle. The people who you describe as being upset are in the "intermediate" or "advanced" singers groups, which plays to my point that there needs to be more education, understanding and tolerance.   IF the organizers divided up rooms for different song circles for different levels, and placed some UNDERSTANDING leaders in each group, perhaps it could have melded into something for everyone.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: JohnB
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 11:49 AM

I agree with what BillD is saying (btw. nice name Bill). We have been to a Celtic College for quite a few years now, there are different courses at Beginner, Intermediate and Advanced, even Master Classes, for ALL sorts of instruments and there are different singing classes in Harmony, Irish/Scottish/et, song. The song classes are ONE level, ANYBODY OF ANY Ability or experience.
In the evening there are organized beginners, intermediate and advanced sessions plus others where a few friends or people of similar abilities get together, this generally includes a Teachers session, where it is ALL semi/proffessional performers in the group.
Then there is the "Song Circle" where anything and anyone attends, some High tolerance people are there all the time, some with Blue Books, some with their own Folders of material and some who appear for a while, take their turn and then leave.
There are all the usual arguemants about books after, with the "Intermediate" and "Advanced" singers about stupid books and crutches etc.
The answer is obvious to all our problems, which is to recognize (in groups) the differing abilities of "Singing" not just "Playing"
JohnB


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: billhudson
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 11:42 AM

"One of the things about the South Street Sea Chantey get togethers is that it is a semi-social situation. Professionals and virgins try their stuff out".-EBarnacle Yes that is why I like playing the Asbury Park Clearwater Festival...late night fun circle, mistakes and all.
And Ron, your last post hits the nail on the head,"Education, understanding and patience go a lot further than setting arbitrary rules that exist only for the pleasure of a few."
Still Pickin'
Bill


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 11:34 AM

""Musical masterbation" ... hmmm ... do I need my capo for this? Bob "

If you do it every day, you will not go blind nor will you grow hair on your palms. Well, maybe the hair can't be stopped.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 11:32 AM

"(It didn't require all the capitals)...."

I typed in capitals to distinguish from the quotes as you can see, it was not shouting.

I am not saying that "proper behavior" is to cater to the lowest common denominator.   If we are talking about folk music, then the "proper" setting is to realize that in the true setting of the songs, it is not meant to be an exhibition but a participation. Granted, you can set the rules - but if producing only the BEST songs and singers is your goal, then it is no longer folk music in the truest sense.   It becomes like Little League baseball - where the best players play and the others sit on the bench and get bored. Years later, people scratch their heads and wonder why attendance and ratings for the sport drop.

All I'm saying is that we need to evaluate the purpose of our "sings".   If we truly want to keep the spirit and application of folk music alive, then perhaps we need to examine why we participate and why we want others.    Education, understanding and patience go a lot further than setting arbitrary rules that exist only for the pleasure of a few.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 11:22 AM

(Deckman...that requires a special capo....)


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 11:21 AM

Ok, Ron.... I hear you, and I see your points (It didn't require all the capitals)....I just don't think that it is necessarily 'either/or'. You seem to suggest that the proper behavior is to cater to the lowest common denominator. Both sides need to TRY to be flexible.....those who can't sing well, or don't 'think' they can learn lyrics need to try to imagine what it sounds like to others.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Deckman
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 11:16 AM

"Musical masterbation" ... hmmm ... do I need my capo for this? Bob


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 11:14 AM

Now... I WILL say that do continue to attend some of our local sings, even though they are far below the standards they used to be....I want to keep the session alive! but I can't say I enjoy all of them.....some of what I hear attempted is just painful.
Surely someone can tell when they just can't manage a song at all. Why would they want to sing it badly?


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 11:13 AM

1) It's annoying to sing a song and be told that your lyrics aren't "right" because they're not the same as in The Book. Who the f*** died and made Mr. Blood-Patterson God?
I AGREE WITH YOU ON THAT POINT. FOLK SONGS ARE MEANT TO BE LIVING PIECES OF ART AND SHOULD BE ADAPATED.   PERHAPS SOME EDUCATION IS REQUIRED IF YOU ARE APPROACHED IN THAT FASHION.


2) It's annoying to start a song and have someone yell "Wait, stop, I have to find the page."
DON'T STOP. KEEP ON GOING. THEY WILL CATCH UP.   DEAL WITH THE ANNOYANCE AND THEY WILL GET THE MESSAGE.

3) If one is performing, or leading, a song, one can do it better if one's head is upright, with the throat passages fully open, than if one is looking down into a book.
THIS ISN'T ABOUT PERFORMING, IT IS ABOUT PARTICIPATING. NO ONE IS TELLING YOU TO LOOK DOWN AT A BOOK. YOU ARE NOT BOUND BY WHAT THE PERSON SITTING NEXT TO YOU IS DOING.

4) If one is performing, or leading, a song, it's nice to make some eye contact if you can. Reading lyrics rules that out.
ITS NICE, BUT IT ISN'T MANDATORY. PUT YOURSELF IN THE OTHER PERSONS SHOES AND TRY TO UNDERSTAND WHY THEY NEED THAT BOOK. WHILE SESSIONS ARE MEANT TO ENTERTAINMENT FOR THE INDIVIDUAL, THEY ARE ALSO ABOUT COMMUNITY.

You can preach 'fair' all you want, but it IS the case that if the quality of the music falls below a certain level, some folks will not participate! Others will stay out of sympathy, but suffer. If you know a song you want to hear, but can't lead it well, ASK if someone else will....then sing along and learn it! Get better...practice...take lessons...Most people can eventually manage to participate on a tolerable level.
If singing out of books is the ONLY way you wish to do it, then find a group that does ONLY that.
YOU ARE RIGHT, I WILL PREACH "FAIR" ALL I WANT. IF PEOPLE CHOOSE NOT TO PARTICIPATE BECAUSE OF THEIR OWN EGO, THAT IS THEIR CALL. EVERYTHING YOU MENTION ABOUT PEOPLE LEARNING SONGS TAKES TIME AND PATIENCE, AND IT SEEMS THAT MANY OF OUR "ELDERS" HAVE LOST THAT ABILITY. YOU JUST DO NOT REALIZE THAT WHAT YOU ARE SAYING IS A COMPLETE TURNOFF TO BEGINNERS OR THOSE WHO DO NOT HAVE THE SAME INTEREST AS YOU. IF YOU WISH TO PARTICIPATE IN A CLOSED SESSION WITH A CLIQUE OF FRIENDS, YOU ARE ON THE RIGHT PATH.   EVENTUALLY THERE WON'T BE ANYONE LEFT TO SING WITH.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 11:07 AM

(several others posted while I was typing, I see)


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 11:04 AM

I'm sorry Goatfell....but you miss the point. It has NOTHING to do with "better than you" or "not good enough"...it is about people sharing similar tastes or abilities.

If you were a skier, you would ski mostly with folks of similar ideas of where to go and how steep or difficult the course should be. There can, of course, be some overlap, but those who want to zooom downhill at 60MPH may not be inclined to dodge those who are only interested in little gentle slides.

There are two issues involved.....there is **LEARNING** the songs and how the tunes and words go, and there is *PERFORMING** them for or with a group.

The main idea of singing with others is to enjoy the event, I'd think. If you barely know the song and hesitate in the middle or lose the tune and have to glance down at the words every line, then it will not be easy for folks to sing WITH you or to enjoy hearing you.
    If you DO know the song reasonably well, and can manage the tune similarly, then FINE.... you will be welcome most places. Folks who are 'bit' better will be glad to help....but the middle of a session meant for singing the songs is not the best time for learing & practicing the songs.

I will repeat once more my rule: IF you can sing out of a book or from a sheet in such a way that I can't tell with my eyes closed, I will tolerate it! If you almost know the song, but just need a little help to be sure....go ahead! But taking a book and picking a song that you have heard but seldom tried and reading it AT a group seldom works.

I do know that Irish instrumental "sessions" are often even more particular. They often will flatly not tolerate amateur efforts, and will expect you to learn & practice in other ways. I don't pretend to know all the rules.

Ron Olesko says above: "If someone feels more comfortable by using a book, I think it should be encouraged. Having a crutch might be necessary from some people who don't know the songs that well. "
   .....well, it simply depends on where & when and with whom. There ARE groups and places for very informal learning and practice, but there are times when singing from a book if it is not done well (so that someone with eyes closed can't tell) will ruin the mood.

You can preach 'fair' all you want, but it IS the case that if the quality of the music falls below a certain level, some folks will not participate! Others will stay out of sympathy, but suffer. If you know a song you want to hear, but can't lead it well, ASK if someone else will....then sing along and learn it! Get better...practice...take lessons...Most people can eventually manage to participate on a tolerable level.
If singing out of books is the ONLY way you wish to do it, then find a group that does ONLY that.

(I am reminded that square dance groups often have several levels...one for beginners, taught by an experienced dancer...maybe monthly, and then other nights for experienced dancers who do NOT need to be shown all the steps. It interrupts the dance when someone misses a move and the square has to stop and regroup.)

I just don't know what else to say....


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Midchuck
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 10:58 AM

so what you're saying is that people like me that use songbooks aren't good enough to sing at these sessions, that's very good isn't it.

so if you have a bad memory or just learning the song then don't go to these sessions because you're shit and we are better than you.

i thought that tease sessions were for everyone, but I was wrong.

..........

People who engage in ripping up of RUS books or banning the use of handouts are engaging in musical masturbation.   You might be having a good time, but there is a reason why their are fewer partners.


Speaking for myself alone, all I'm saying is:

1) It's annoying to sing a song and be told that your lyrics aren't "right" because they're not the same as in The Book. Who the f*** died and made Mr. Blood-Patterson God?

2) It's annoying to start a song and have someone yell "Wait, stop, I have to find the page."

3) If one is performing, or leading, a song, one can do it better if one's head is upright, with the throat passages fully open, than if one is looking down into a book.

4) If one is performing, or leading, a song, it's nice to make some eye contact if you can. Reading lyrics rules that out.

No argument that it's better to sing using The Book than not sing. But even if you use printed lyrics, there's more than one book. Get a copy of Silverman's "The Dirty Song Book," for a starter.

Peter


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: EBarnacle
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 10:58 AM

One of the things about the South Street Sea Chantey get togethers is that it is a semi-social situation. Professionals and virgins try their stuff out. some pros bring sheets with them to help them over their first few performances of material before they really go public.

Sometimes the pieces get critiqued and emended on the spot. While this is qualitatively different from RUS, the same thing occurs to users of RUS in that people who use this also get corrected on some of the most egregious errors in the book.

As long as you remember that nothing is really cast in stone and authoritative, it's all a learning process.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: billhudson
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 10:44 AM

I got one from Pete and use it sometimes, its the words that I am after. Not a thing in this world is perfect but I notice a lot of Hudson Valley, New York musicians use this one.
I always seem to go back to this book, kind if like good food and maybe like comfort food. Now a days I am more folk & roll but always eep that book in my office.
Still Pickin'
Bill


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 10:27 AM

"But Rise Up Singing was treated like a shortcut to folk performance. The equivalent would be if I stood in front of a tour at Ellis Island and read someone else's account from a book"

There is a HUGE difference there, and that might be the heart of the problem. A group sing or song-circle should not be considered a "performance". IF the participants consider it such, then you've moved into an area where you do not need others joining you. A tour guide at Ellis Island IS a performer and their JOB requirement is to be knowledgeable.   A person participating in a sing should not have to pass an exam to join - if they do, then perhaps they should rethink why they want to be a part of such a snooty gathering.

The whole idea of "folk music" was that it was a participatory experience, not a exhibition of skills. There are numerous cultural and technological reasons why people do not sing in homes as much as they used to.   Musical snobs, and yes I use that term deliberatley, are more concerned with their own experience than the experience of others.

People who engage in ripping up of RUS books or banning the use of handouts are engaging in musical masturbation.   You might be having a good time, but there is a reason why their are fewer partners. Many of the same people I see in this thread have also engaged in conversations about why folk music is being ignored by the media, non-existant at festivals, and why young people are joining in.   Perhaps this is a small indication of why all of those issues are real.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: goatfell
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 09:50 AM

so what you're saying is that people like me that use songbooks aren't good enough to sing at these sessions, that's very good isn't it.

so if you have a bad memory or just learning the song then don't go to these sessions because you're shit and we are better than you.

i thought that tease sessions were for everyone, but I was wrong.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Peter T.
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 09:29 AM

I always thought 17-B was a good argument, until I saw AB33045, and then I realized the error of my ways, and went out and bought a capo.

yours,

Peter T.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Haruo
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 02:10 AM

Joe said, "song sheets at a campfire are a travesty", but I think they work pretty well as firestarter. Gotta crumple 'em up a bit, of course, but they'll help the kindling take.

Haruo


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 01:03 AM

I'll jump to the bottom of the thread, without reading the testimonials (though I did glance at Don Firth's, and we both know some of that history), to say that members of the Seattle Song Circle happily shredded a copy of the blue book at the celebration of life they did for my Dad (John Dwyer). But that's because a number of them, Dad included, had a problem with people not completely knowing the songs they decided to sing in public. Dad didn't like it when people stood and sang off of the printed page, not exuding the understanding and internalization of the song they were singing. It was used as a crutch too often for his tastes.

I have spent years as a public speaker, as a park naturalist and historian, and have the same understanding about a performer or speaker really knowing their material. Until it can come across as completely and naturally your own, as something you understand and can address in a lucid conversation, it isn't ready for prime time. But Rise Up Singing was treated like a shortcut to folk performance. The equivalent would be if I stood in front of a tour at Ellis Island and read someone else's account from a book, instead of making eye contact and telling the history as I knew it to exist, from stories told to me. There is simply no comparison, and if you don't understand the distinction, then you're not ready to be singing in public. Or leading tours. :)

SRS


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Barry Finn
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 12:50 AM

My reaction to the bloody song circles that use RUS. Never saw a circle that used this book & held on to the good or strong singers, they eventually go elsewhere. This hasn't only happened in Seattle, I've seen it in Boston & San Francisco & other places.

Rise Up Screaming (by Barry Finn)
Tune: Jack In The Green (by Martin Graebe)

A pub session or a party is a very strange thing
They're all out of fashion no more do they sing
For they read from a book or copy a tape
They imitate sounds no mortal should make

There's no sound in the kitchen, no sound in the hall
There's a murderous screech that plays off the walls
Where is the music, where are the songs
In the mouths of monsters where no sound belongs

Dead pan they look as they sing in your face
They'll spit out the words and the tunes they'll disgrace
A song will be beat o'r and over to death
And in a round robin they'll resurrect it again

No more will be heard a version that's lost
Or a variant that's rare or two songs that were crossed
The borrowing or sharing of a tune or a song
Will be according to the Bible all else will be wrong

And now for the future, it's bleak for the song
No young mortal will dare to carry it on
They'll be none around who without books can sing
Or swap without tapes or rise up singing

Copyright Barry Finn 1996


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 12:35 AM

PoppaGator, the idea wasn't to try to come up with songs that nobody else knew, but since there were several singers of long experience there, it was a bit of a kick for a newcomer to be able to come up with a song that the old-timers didn't already know.

We started out with the idea that there would be a lot of group singing, but not just that. We tended to gravitate toward sea chanteys and songs with choruses. A couple of sea chanteys that rocked the building might be followed by a solo singer doing a ballad. These often precipitated a swap of information. "Where did you learn that version?" "I got it from so-and-so's record." Or "It's in Lomax's Folk Song U.S.A." Then, we'd move on to someone singing verses solo, with a good chorus that everyone could join in on. There was a good mix of group singing and solo performing, and everybody had a chance to learn new stuff.

And people taught songs, a la campfire singing (without the campfire). That worked well also.

But we didn't sing out of books or from crib sheets. This encouraged people to learn the songs, not just read them out of a book, then promptly forget them. And on the deck of the schooner Wawona during the Moss Bay Sail and Chantey Festival, nobody was using a book or song sheet. We all knew the songs.

Things started coming unglued when some people somehow got the idea that they could sing solo for the group without preparation. Or that they could teach a song to the group that they didn't already know themselves. The next step, of course, was to bring a book—preferably a book that everyone else had also brought with them. Then no one would have to go to the trouble of actually learning the songs. That's when a lot of people who already had a headful of songs tended to loose interest, especially if a song someone had in his or her head either wasn't in The Book, or it was, but it wasn't the "authorized" version ("That's not the way it is in The Book!").

I'm not contending that the practice of sitting around singing out of Rise Up Singing should be abolished and those who do should be smote hip and thigh and cast into The Pit. If someone enjoys group singing out of a book, that's fine. Whatever turns your crank. But personally, I prefer a mix of solo and group singing, with the hope that I might hear something that I haven't heard before, which isn't very likely if everyone is singing out of the same book.

Even in church, the congregation may all sing together out of a hymnal, but most churches also have a choir that does a couple of songs, and frequently a soloist or two.

Variety.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 12:09 AM

Oh, Kat, I don't mind that at all, and often provide sheets when I'm teaching songs at workshops - but song sheets at a campfire are a travesty. Besides being a mess, people start complaining that they can't read the words, or they bring out flashlights. Part of the fun of a campfire song, is the teaching. It can be a challenge, but you can make it memorable if you ham it up the right way.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Dec 08 - 11:55 PM

Joe, just a note about parents wanting lyric sheets...I have asked for them before from my grandson's preschool teacher, so that I can learn them so he and I can sing them at home, sans the sheet once I've learned the words.

Ron, I agree with you.

Spaw, great idea!:-)


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Dec 08 - 10:48 PM

I have to confess that in our "In Harmony's Way" session, I often sing different versions of songs that are in the "Blue Book." When somebody pulls out a book and asks what page the song is on, I remind them that's against the rules. I can't get away with that very easily in our Sacramento session that uses Rise Up Singing as a hymnal. But in both sessions, I do try to push people to go beyond the book.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: artbrooks
Date: 26 Dec 08 - 10:14 PM

Someone asked "what is the 'Blue book'"? It is, simply, the much maligned "Rise Up Singing"...because, until the last two (I think) editions, it had a blue cover. Personally, I prefer "The Folksinger's Word Book", if one must have a song book.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: PoppaGator
Date: 26 Dec 08 - 10:13 PM

"... it encouraged people to learn the songs before they came to the meetings, so that when their turn came up, they would have something to contribute—preferably a song that the rest of the crew had never heard, if at all possible. The result was that a lot of really good songs began to emerge."

So ~ the exercise, then, was not nercessarily a "sing-along"? It was OK to perform a piece that no one else could be expected to know?

Would one be expected to teach the gang to participate, presumably on an often-repeated chorus? Or not even?

Sounds like song swapping, not necessarily group singing. (Not on every number, anyway). That'd be fine with me, but some gatherings of some groups might have the intention that every participant be able to sing on every selection. In that context, I would imagine that a shared "hymnal" (even a secular one like RUS) would be a basic tool.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 26 Dec 08 - 10:13 PM

There have always been two good sides to this disagreement, but neither side seems to wish to bend.

If someone feels more comfortable by using a book, I think it should be encouraged. Having a crutch might be necessary from some people who don't know the songs that well.   Also, given the average age of the people who attend song circles these days, having a cheat sheat isn't a bad idea for those who forget words.   I'd rather see someone with their face down in a book as opposed to someone with their face straining toward the sky trying to remember a line of a song.

At the same time, a person who uses a book should not feel upset if someone sings something other than one of the tunes in the collection. Some people mentioned that they have seen folks who seem lost when a new song is sung - which should not be a surprise. I find it incredible that someone would feel put off by a song not written in front of them.

A good song circle consists of many people. I don't think there should be a requirement either way - if you want to use a book, use it. If you prefer to sing a song from memory, you should do so.   The point of the event is to have a good time in the simple act of singing - and if you allow rules or ego to guide how the proceedings should go, you've created a situation that really is a clique and not a fun event.

Live and let live. Don't worry what the person sitting next to you is doing, and don't let your thoughts on how things should go dictate the enjoyment of others.


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: catspaw49
Date: 26 Dec 08 - 09:56 PM

Outside of "What is Folk?" this is about the oldest and longest running argument on the 'Cat. Ten years ago it was also the same things being said and often by some of the same people. My first post as I reacll was one of uttter contempt and condemnation of RUS but over the years I began to see it was not the book but the way its used. That's not a new thought either as I recall some people were saying that as well ten years ago.

Matter of fact, I haven't seen anything on this thread that hasn't already been argued and defended or trashed before. Everyone has an opinion and I may be one of a few who has mellowed slightly but I'm thinking we need to start a thread for each long running topic with each argument, pro or con, listed & numbered in the first post. Then we can run it every now and then for a new article like PT found or something similar and just type in the number.

I used to back Argument 7 but I have come over to the 14-B way of thinking.


LOL


Spaw


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Subject: RE: homage to Rise Up Singing
From: Stewart
Date: 26 Dec 08 - 09:56 PM

By the way Don,

I also first learned Thais from "Song Fest,"
but always used the book, because I thought
it might not be possible to memorize all 13 verses.

Then about 40 years later, thinking about that song,
not having sung it in many years,
and with no "Song Fest" handy, I realized
I could sing it without the book, all the bloody 13 verses!
I just had to put all the lines in order,
but it was there in my head!

Now if all those song circle people
who always use RUS just tried,
they might just amaze themselves.
They might be able to leave the book at home,
and we'd all be better off.

Cheers, S. in Seattle


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