The re-Imagined Village

Subject: RE: The re-Imagined Village
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 23 Aug 09 - 04:42 AM

"Sorry WAV, I was forgetting, you're from Australia where human-ovine relationships are the norm. I'm teaching your grandmother to suck eggs here – or, rather, you grandfather to f**k sheep." (TL)...you have no problem with that S., but you have such a big problem with my calm polite criticism of our status quo that you resort to calling me a "fascist" and a "racist". I am, rather, an English repatriate, with a major in anthropology, who has enjoyed travelling through about 40 countries, and probably appreciates our world being multicultural as much as anyone on Earth.

"Eh! Did someone poach the village fete's prize piglet??
One buggers off for a week and there's all sorts of village feuds going on! Gotta catch up with the re-imagined omnibus edition..." (CS)...probably predominantly peripatetic pannage.

Subject: RE: The re-Imagined Village
From: theleveller
Date: 23 Aug 09 - 06:20 AM

"Sorry WAV, I was forgetting, you're from Australia where human-ovine relationships are the norm."

Come on. WAV, it was just a bit of light-hearted stereotyping. As a Yorkshire person, it's one that I often get thrown at me (I just catch it an chuck it back) :)

BTW, I can introduce you to some very attractive Swaledale's I know.

Subject: RE: The re-Imagined Village
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 23 Aug 09 - 07:04 AM

Sorry WAV, I was forgetting, you're from Australia where human-ovine relationships are the norm. I'm teaching your grandmother to suck eggs here – or, rather, you grandfather to f**k sheep (TL) ...you have no problem with that S., but you have such a big problem with my calm polite criticism of our status quo that you resort to calling me a "fascist" and a "racist". I am, rather, an English repatriate, with a major in anthropology, who has enjoyed travelling through about 40 countries, and probably appreciates our world being multicultural as much as anyone on Earth.

I have no problem whatsoever with theleveller's quite reasonable response to your vile stance, WAV. As for you being calm and polite - who cares? Your ideas are as EVIL as they are just plain WRONG and if anyone doubts this they might peruse the Fascist and Racist tracts you maintain on-line in the form of your WAV MESSAGES.

No one but a Fascist and a Racist would ever write such things, let alone publish and promote them. Indeed, reading through all your other WAV MESSAGES it soon becomes evident that your only interest in folk music is to front your Fascist & Racist concepts of Culture. I'm not talking Xenophobia here, but a deep festering hatred of anything that doesn't comply with your frighteningly narrow misgivings and misunderstandings that you pass off as a good way forward for humanity.

Fascism is the suppression of individual liberty to one absolute law in the name of a Greater National & Cultural well-being with any amount of bogus Volkishness invariably thrown in for good measure. This is precisely what you believe. You have no interest in the glorious realities of what people are doing, only what they should be doing according to your bizarre alien misconception of what constitutes English Culture. This is Fascism, WAV - you are Fascist.

You are also racist because your concept of English Culture refuses to take into account the multiplicity of ethnicities that constitute that culture or yet the multiplicity of influences on which that culture is founded. You are racist because you continue to publish and promote dangerously inflammatory lies (see WAV MESSAGES) founded on your misgivings and misunderstandings regarding immigration and cultural process.

Subject: RE: The re-Imagined Village
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 23 Aug 09 - 07:51 AM

S: it is you not I who resorted to calling a recorder, made in Japan, an "Engrish frute," and told us you have friends who make "racist jokes" at the pub. Among my Messages (above, times 3) and all else I've published, you will NOT find suchlike.

And clearly the problem with such "light-hearted stereotyping" (TL) is that there are those, like S., who lack formal education but are ultra-competitive and hate someone disagreeing with their world view; i.e., given an inch, he will take a mile.

Subject: RE: The re-Imagined Village
From: Jack Campin
Date: 23 Aug 09 - 08:22 AM

Just out of hospital (minor heart attack) where I spent some time reading a book which had a few comments relevant to the latest developments on this thread.

Bartok on folk music transgressing national boundaries

Subject: RE: The re-Imagined Village
From: GUEST,Sedayne (Astray) (S O'P)
Date: 23 Aug 09 - 09:18 AM

who lack formal education

All I lack is a degree, WAV - I made it into Durham University to do a single honours Language & Linguistics degree but had to withdraw on account of serious illness. This you know, yet you still drag it up. We discuss here as equals, regardless of academic achievement; it is the wit, nous or otherwise of the individual that drives the discussion, not how many fork-lift certificates they've got. And for all your qualifications in Anthropology you haven't demonstrated any understanding of the subject whatsoever.

but are ultra-competitive and hate someone disagreeing with their world view; i.e., given an inch, he will take a mile.

My world-view is simply that every single one of us is entitled to the freedoms they were born to without their personal and cultural liberty being regulated by a higher authority - or in in your case would be higher authority - in the name of knowing what is best for them. Your world-view is a Fascist Absolutism that opposes such Cultural Realities and Individual Freedoms - and this world-view I oppose because you choose to publish and promote it. That your world-view is also founded on a complete lack of understanding of (and a total unwillingness to learn about) the things you write about is also cause for concern - forklift / anthropology qualifications notwithstanding.

Subject: RE: The re-Imagined Village
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 23 Aug 09 - 02:32 PM

PS - Hope you're well soon, Jack!

Subject: RE: The re-Imagined Village
From: theleveller
Date: 23 Aug 09 - 03:59 PM

"that there are those, like S., who lack formal education "

Now that really fucks me off WAV.Our fuckwit UKIP MEP, Godfrey Bloom, who lives in my village, wrote to the parish council about the attitude of "those people who live the other side of the tracks who do not have the benefit of a formal education....". This is the twat who thinks that women should stay at home and clean behind the fridge and that any organisation that employs women of child-bearing age is an idiot.

Yes, we are the people who live the wrong side of the tracks. As for formal education, well mine had been more autodidactic but mrsleveller has an first degree, an MA and a PGCE. She works for the Workers Education Association providing free courses for people who want to better themselves educationally.I may also point out that my grandfather, who left school at the age of 12, was the most well-read and intelligent person I have ever met and, despite never having any personal ambition, spent all his life working for the community and became chairman of the council, an early member of the Labour Party, a JP, a churchwarden, and sat on innumerable commitees. He never made a buck and ended his life in an almshouse but, even today, 20 years after his death at the age of 94, people speak of him with respect and affection.

So, basically, take your formal education and stick it up your arse.

Jack, hope the minor heart attack is not more than a minor inconvenience and the precursor to a long and healthy life.

Right, back to the second bottle of half-price Australian Merlot (made, no doubt, WAV, by sweaty feet of the descendants of British convicts who had no educatiuon whatsoever....mmmmmm!)

Subject: RE: The re-Imagined Village
From: theleveller
Date: 23 Aug 09 - 04:12 PM

"Swaledale's"

Ooops! Actually, non-possessive Swaledales. I hate jealous sheep.

Subject: RE: The re-Imagined Village
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 23 Aug 09 - 04:18 PM

"you still drag it up" (S.)... I only very occasionally do so, in defence, when you go too far in your repeated false accusations, rather than sticking to what I've actually posted.

I often post on threads where I disagree with the argument, but, unlike you sometimes, that's what I always focus on - NOT name calling.

Fascism opposes democracy and socialism/communism; I am for democracy and, in a democratic way, have often criticized capitalism. It's quite likely you are playing on the fact that there has recently been anti-fascist threads (you used to repeatedly use "racism"), and this time you have even added "Absolutism".

Subject: RE: The re-Imagined Village
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 23 Aug 09 - 05:20 PM

I only very occasionally do so, in defence,

You lash out with personal insults, rather than answer the points that have been raised. By your own writ (WAV MESSAGES) you are both a Fascist and a Racist - if you weren't, you wouldn't have written what you have, let alone persist in promoting it.

Subject: RE: The re-Imagined Village
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 24 Aug 09 - 04:36 AM

It is you, S., not I who called a recorder made in Japan an "Engrish frute" and said he has friends who tell "racist jokes" at the pub. And it is I not you who has enjoyed travelling, on a shoe-string, through about 40 countries, and who achieved distinctions for anthropology at university.

If you keep posting those false and defamatory remarks, I have to defend myself with such facts. Try sticking to the argument.

Subject: RE: The re-Imagined Village
From: s&r
Date: 24 Aug 09 - 04:49 AM

Proof by assertion is a logical fallacy in which a proposition is repeatedly restated regardless of contradiction. Sometimes this may be repeated until challenges dry up, at which point it is asserted as fact due to its not being contradicted (argumentum ad nauseam). In other cases its repetition may be cited as evidence of its truth

Thanks Wiki

Stu

Subject: RE: The re-Imagined Village
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 24 Aug 09 - 05:42 AM

It is you, S., not I who called a recorder made in Japan an "Engrish frute"

It was the saintly Don Firth who coined that one, WAV - in respect of the supreme irony of you calling your mass-produced Japanese-made plastic recorder an English Flute. Engrish is a linguistic phenomenon which celebrates the grammatical incongruities consequent upon Japanese attempts at translating their language into English. There are several books on the subject (at least one of which I own) and websites too, such as http://www.engrish.com/.   

and said he has friends who tell "racist jokes" at the pub.

If people let slip a few less-than PC remarks down at my local (see HERE for a recent example - and be sure pay special attention to my post of 10 Aug 09 - 10:20 AM) then that's by way of human frailty and colloquial waywardness. They don't go out of their way to publish and promote a vile racist ideology as you do. Far worse than any racist joke I've ever heard: England was a more English place 50 years ago. You said that, WAV - even worse, you believe it to be true.

And it is I not you who has enjoyed travelling, on a shoe-string, through about 40 countries

They say travel broadens the mind - so where did we go wrong with you I wonder?

and who achieved distinctions for anthropology at university.

And yet you persist in an anti-anthropological approach to cultural process by insisting human culture is regulated by a higher authority which you alone are privy to. Anthropology is the study and understanding of human culture, not the dictation and suppression of it. In all your posts here you would dictate and suppress the way people do things; in your published work likewise. What the hell school of anthropology is this? One that insists on mass compliance to an absolute cultural law along the lines of racial segregation and regulation... Now what what does that remind you of I wonder?

If you keep posting those false and defamatory remarks, I have to defend myself with such facts.

Nothing false in what I say, WAV as anyone reading your insane MESSAGES would conclude. Like I say, only a Racist and a Fascist would write such things; only a Racist and a Fascist would relentlessly promote them as a good way forward for humanity.

I note you never answer the points that are raised against you. You write English culture is taking a hammering and when people lose their culture society suffers, but you never explain how, or why, you just trot it out as being a self-evident absolute, which of course it isn't. So tell us, WAV - how is English culture taking a hammering? And in what way is society suffering as a result? What qualifies you to make such inhumane remarks, let alone publish them? And do you ever worry that if some racist thug read such inflammatory words they might then go out and act upon them? What then, WAV? You promote and advocate human suffering in the name of a highly idiosyncratic set of racially divisive ideological absolutes and yet you flinch at being called a Fascist and a Racist.

Try sticking to the argument.

Sorry, WAV - this is the argument.

The re-Imagined Village is a place where you might purge yourself of your absurd and alien misconceptions of English Culture and actually learn about the way things really are, rather than the way you want them to be. Think of it as purgatory - a place to listen and learn, to be cleansed of your vile conclusions which are in any case wholly and completely WRONG.

But please note: not once have I insulted you personally - on the contrary, I've supported you when things have turned personal on other threads. I respect you but question your ideology. Now, if you can, please answer the above points without resorting to further personal insults.

Subject: RE: The re-Imagined Village
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 24 Aug 09 - 06:04 AM

"So tell us, WAV - how is English culture taking a hammering?" (S)...off the top of my head - traditional Christmas celebrations being curtailed, as they may offend some of the ethnic groups now living in England. English country dancing and folk songs either no longer being taught at English schools or certainly far less than they were say half way through last century.

Subject: RE: The re-Imagined Village
From: mandotim
Date: 24 Aug 09 - 06:09 AM

S O'P; that's one of the best posts I've seen on here. Bravo! (from one who has just been called 'stupid' by WAV on the Ashes thread.)
Tim

Subject: RE: The re-Imagined Village
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 24 Aug 09 - 06:26 AM

off the top of my head - traditional Christmas celebrations being curtailed, as they may offend some of the ethnic groups now living in England.

Er - that's just a myth, WAV; if you can prove otherwise, please give evidence. And supposing it was true, are not those Ethnic Groups Now Living in England just as representative of an actual English Culture as the Imported Christmas Celebrations supposedly being suppressed for fear of causing offence? Or would you apply racist divisions on what actually constitutes English Culture? Obviously you do, otherwise you would not have written what you have. Thus do I call you a Racist. Your post here only serves to confirm that.

English country dancing and folk songs either no longer being taught at English schools or certainly far less than they were say half way through last century.

All the English Country Folk Dance & Song Shit taught in schools was tenth-rate revivalist Bowdlerised bourgeois bullshit anyway. English Culture - and Education - is better off without it.

So how are we suffering, WAV? Do tell!

Subject: RE: The re-Imagined Village
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 24 Aug 09 - 06:27 AM

That was post 666 by the way...

Subject: RE: The re-Imagined Village
From: mandotim
Date: 24 Aug 09 - 06:50 AM

WAV; almost all of our 'traditional' Christmas celebrations are imported anyway. Starters; Turkey (USA) Christmas trees (Germany) Christianity (the Middle East).

Subject: RE: The re-Imagined Village
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 24 Aug 09 - 06:50 AM

"English country dancing and folk songs either no longer being taught at English schools or certainly far less than they were say half way through last century."

In what way, are immigrants to blame for the apathy and general disinterest of the English towards their own folk heritage, or indeed for what we choose to keep on the curriculum?

If anything I would suggest that many immigrant groups *lead by example* in terms of their maintenance within British culture of their own styles of music, song and dance. Take the much hated Paddies back in the fifties, of whom I'm descended (My cousin now runs an Irish dancing school in London): in the face of immense hostility ("a hammering"?) to their culture, they successfully maintained it, until ironically it has now been warmly embraced by an English generally apathetic to their own traditions.

If anything I suspect the recent revival of native interest in traditional English song and custom, has actually been born from English interest in equivalent Irish traditions.

Subject: RE: The re-Imagined Village
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 24 Aug 09 - 07:59 AM

the apathy and general disinterest of the English towards their own folk heritage

This is a bit of a moot point here, methinks. What is our own folk heritage? If it's that which takes place in the bucolic hinterlands once dreamed of by the well-to-do Ladies & Gentlemen of the EFDSS then it's hardly the wonder there is a complete disinterest in it on the part of the English people in general - and me in particular! Tailored for bourgeois sensibilities, it is a revivalist fantasy of something that barely made it into the 20th Century, only to be revived by way of a romantic volkish revisionist re-invention that is precisely the same recurring nightmare we find in WAV's wanklore and other even less savoury right-wing manifestos.

There is no English Folk Heritage other than that imagined by The Revival, and subsequently tailored for its disparate needs. In education it was a joke (recorders likewise); to the vast majority of the English people it is still a joke, but at least we no longer have to suffer its indignities at school. This isn't due to apathy on the part of the English people, it is simply because the English people have a living culture of their own, one that has been completely overlooked and, to a certain extent, disparaged by the Folk Revival. Call it English Popular Culture - which is alive and well - and you'll find it everywhere; in every county, in every city, every town, every village, every street and every home - we each and every one of us carry it in our hearts; a wondrous diversity inclusive of all ethnicities, derivations, origins and individuals - Folkies included!

Subject: RE: The re-Imagined Village
From: Sailor Ron
Date: 24 Aug 09 - 10:49 AM

Re"English culture. To quote the late Peter Bellamy " Ewan McCall spent all his life trying tp give 'folk music' back to THE PEOPLE, but THWE PEOPLE said "'sod off' we'd rather have Tom Jones!".
'nuff said.

Subject: RE: The re-Imagined Village
From: Will Fly
Date: 24 Aug 09 - 11:20 AM

I've had all these arguments with you before, David, and the sad thing is that you simply trot out the same stuff from your own writings time after time - feeding, in fact, on your self-penned inanities.

Here's a snapshot of English culture - 2009-style - from my 65th birthday bash in my local last night:

We had 12 musicians, including myself: (1) fiddle/flute/guitar/vocal (2) hammered dulcimer/vocal (3) small pipes/whistles/serpent (3) anglo concertinas (4) cajon (5) guitar/mandolin/vocal (6) vocal (7) keyboard (8) recorder (9) mandolin/fiddle (10) electric bass (11) keyboard (12) guitar/tenor guitar/mandolin/vocal.

The music ranged from French mazurkas, various English/Irish/Scottish jigs, reels, hornpipes, blues, 1920s & 30s songs, jazz, one Paul Simon song, polkas, Hank Williams, the Scissor Sisters and much besides. The pub was packed, with several of the guests dancing their socks off at the back of the pub and joining in the choruses of what they knew. A great time was had by all, and the atmosphere was electric.

That's English culture - with every item being performed with love and affection by those whose turn it was - and everyone got at least 3 bites of the cherry - and everyone joining in where appropriate and where possible. Why should any of this change because of the opinion of a mouldy fig who knows bugger all about any of it and can only see entertainment as a stratum of ideology - rather than just bloody good FUN?

Subject: RE: The re-Imagined Village
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 24 Aug 09 - 01:19 PM

"traditional Christmas celebrations being curtailed, as they may offend some of the ethnic groups now living in England" (me)...given your response to this S., have you genuinely not heard news and current affairs debate on this matter over the last few years, or are you just being ultra-competitive to the point of recalcitrance?

Subject: RE: The re-Imagined Village
From: Will Fly
Date: 24 Aug 09 - 01:53 PM

David, if you actually look at the facts of the matter - and not the urban myth - there have actually been no instances of Christmas celebrations being curtailed. None. If you can find factual evidence - post it here.

Subject: RE: The re-Imagined Village
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 24 Aug 09 - 01:54 PM

Sorry none of the major components of Christmas are even remotely English (or British for that matter). Mind you the English language itself in made up og god knows how many different languges.

WAV's view of England, if it's not English it doesn't belong in England,( one shouldn't play with it, sing it, or have anything to do with it) , whoops there goes alot of so-called "English traditions" As many now know, I'm not English, does this mean I need to go back where I came from WAV, is this what you're saying? I know that one your favoutite sayings is, "I love the world being multi-cultural, and England being part of that world". Let me add that YOU, WAV don't want any the world's multiculturalism in England, there's a name for that sort of attitude, but I can't quite remember what that name is.......

CHarlotte Olivia Robertson (Ms)

Subject: RE: The re-Imagined Village
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 24 Aug 09 - 02:41 PM

ultra-competitive to the point of recalcitrance

re·cal·ci·trant (r-kls-trnt)
adj.
Marked by stubborn resistance to and defiance of authority or guidance. See Synonyms at unruly. Wilfully disobedient [Latin re-[again] + calcitrare to kick]
n.
A recalcitrant person.
        1. recalcitrant - stubbornly resistant to authority or control; "a fractious animal that would not submit to the harness"; "a refractory child" fractious, refractory, disobedient - not obeying or complying with commands of those in authority; "disobedient children"
        2. recalcitrant - marked by stubborn resistance to authority; "the University suspended the most recalcitrant demonstrators" defiant, non-compliant - boldly resisting authority or an opposing force; "brought up to be aggressive and defiant"; "a defiant attitude"

etc.

*

WAV - in what possible sense of the word am I on the point of recalcitrance? What authority am I defying here? Who am I disobeying? I know you think you're the supreme dictator of Heaven and Earth but that's only in your own head - it isn't real.

As for ultra-competitive - not in the slightest, dear boy. What I want is for you to wise up to the glorious realities of English Culture and ditch the accumulated bullshit. I want you to enjoy your English citizenship and your repatriation; I want you to become one of us, to assimilate and to become assimilated. You're not going to do that by propagating divisive urban-mythology and tabloid lies about the suppression of our so-called Xmas Traditions (which aren't ours anyway) so as not to offend our ethnic minorities (who are ours in every sense of the word).

Subject: RE: The re-Imagined Village
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 24 Aug 09 - 02:59 PM

"As for ultra-competitive - not in the slightest, dear boy." (S)...calling someone who worked hard for his 4 technical certificates and a degree in humanities, found his way, on a shoe-string, through about 40 countries, taught himself to read and write (at least, in simple letter-notation, above) music, placed in some folk-festival comps, and managed to play A-grade junior tennis and football having been born with a club-foot "dear boy" - delusion.

Subject: RE: The re-Imagined Village
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 24 Aug 09 - 03:14 PM

You're a snob, WAV, as snob as only a colonial can be. I've seen it before, someone trying to be more English than the English themselves.

Listen sunshine, and listen well, I for one couldn't give a rat's rear end about what qualifications you've got nor from whence they came, I couldn't care less how many countries you've visited (as opposed to actual explored, but that's another question for another day), sports, been there done that, ad ohhh look...plying the disabled card are we and how we triumphed over it...well....my late mother was in a wheelchair (a paraplegic) for most of her life, and she and we travelled, we played sports, and , you know what, she never had to justify what she did or didn't do because of or in spite of being in a wheelchair. I can't be bothered addressing the rest of your outrageous posting so I'll simply say this...

YOU are not, in anyway, special, so get over yourself!

Charlotte Olivia Roberstson (Ms)

Subject: RE: The re-Imagined Village
From: Jack Campin
Date: 24 Aug 09 - 03:15 PM

Sorry none of the major components of Christmas are even remotely English (or British for that matter).

Christmas cards. Invented in England in 1843, the same year as the fax machine.

Surely for most people that's the major component of Christmas?

Subject: RE: The re-Imagined Village
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 24 Aug 09 - 03:24 PM

Christmas cards, THE major component....well whatever you say, (glad you feel you can speak for the majority) the fax machine is irrelevant to the topic at hand.

Subject: RE: The re-Imagined Village
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 24 Aug 09 - 03:43 PM

"dear boy" - delusion.

No. Dear Boy - a very English term of friendship as found in a certain sort of literature (Jeeves and Wooster etc.) along with Old Boy, Old Fruit, etc. Congrats on the achievements, WAV - but none of it qualifies you to pontificate upon matters you know nothing about.

Pip, pip!

Subject: RE: The re-Imagined Village
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 24 Aug 09 - 04:44 PM

Beak - as you asked me not to call you by your first name (which I RESPECTED), I am NOT your "sunshine".

How about telling me to leave England for another Walkabout, S - is that a "very English" thing, too?...but "very English" - there's hope there, though...you may soon trade in that Welsh crwth of yours for an English cittern and a starling feather!...but then Beak may not be your "sunshine," either.

Subject: RE: The re-Imagined Village
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 24 Aug 09 - 04:50 PM

Did someone mention the crwth? I know I didn't
as I already said

YOU are not, in anyway, special, so get over yourself!

Charlotte Olivia Robertson (Ms)

Subject: RE: The re-Imagined Village
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 24 Aug 09 - 06:11 PM

How about telling me to leave England for another Walkabout, S - is that a "very English" thing, too?

No indeed - stick around, old fruit - only if you do, kindly do so with the open mind of the trained anthropologist; look, listen and (hopefully) learn.

...but "very English" - there's hope there, though...

There is hope for us all, WAV - even for the recalcitrant buffoon you portray yourself as in your writings. Were you to ony but humble yourself long enough to partake of the cultural wonders of the country in which you have chosen as your home - and what wonders they are! Infinite wonders which this thread has barely touched upon!

you may soon trade in that Welsh crwth of yours for an English cittern and a starling feather!..

Never presume to tell another person what they should, or indeed should not, be playing - you oppress my individual freedom by doing so. FYI, my Welsh Crwth is actually a hypothetical Medieval Northern-European bowed-lyre built for me, circa 1987, by a Canadian master harp-builder based in Inverness. It may be one-of-a-kind but it nevertheless exists - unlike your English Cittern which is a figment of your malnourished imagination, starling feathers and all. In our Fylde sets this year Rapunzel & I will be featuring several Traditional English Folk Songs with accompaniments arranged for 5-string banjo & crwth.

On watching Bell Bottom George just now, which we recorded earlier. A rare slab of Vintage Englishness, ukulele & all, and some choice old footage of Fleetwood to boot!

Subject: RE: The re-Imagined Village
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 25 Aug 09 - 03:37 AM

"your English Cittern which is a figment of yuour malnourished imagination, starling feathers and all." (S)..."starling feathers" was from your good-self, in a post not far above.

"A rare slab of Vintage Englishness, ukulele & all" (S)...isn't that a tad disrespectful of Hawaiians?

Subject: RE: The re-Imagined Village
From: Sailor Ron
Date: 25 Aug 09 - 03:48 AM

WAV,since when has George Formby been Hawaiian? Except for the concertina [& even that is debatable] I can't think of any instrument that is an English invention, can you? 'Cause if you can 'you're a better man than I am etc'.

Subject: RE: The re-Imagined Village
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 25 Aug 09 - 04:28 AM

Ron: If George Formby knew better he would have been accompanying himself on an English cittern not an Hawaiian ukulele.

"INSTRUMENTS OF (OR CLOSELY ASSOCIATED WITH) ENGLAND
Northumbrian Bagpipes (bellows blown), Leicestershire Bagpipes (mouth blown); English Concertina, Anglo Concertina, Duet Concertina (and important developments to – if not inventions of – other key-boards, such as piano and organ, have also occurred in England); Dital Harp/Harp-Lute, English Cittern; English Flageolet, Penny Whistle, Recorder/English Flute, Pipe and Tabor (old Morris accompaniment),
the Stylophone (a recent one), Brass, Bells (to some, England's national instrument), as well as Spoons.
(Footnote: during the Athens Olympics ceremonies, the Greeks, pleasingly, presented their bouzoukis: I wonder how-many of the above instruments - and dances - will be shown at the London Olympics..?)" (from here).

Subject: RE: The re-Imagined Village
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 25 Aug 09 - 04:43 AM

"starling feathers" was from your good-self, in a post not far above.

Sorry, old bean - I'm afraid the post to which you refer was a rather fanciful spoof on my part, as ought to be obvious from the notion of musicians (or otherwise) sticking the pointy ends of starling feathers underneath their fingernails. For those who missed it: 18 Aug 09 - 04:19 AM. I must also point out that whilst this tradition most certainly does not survive in the Lancastrian towns I mentioned, the Barber Shop Cittern you speak of was indeed the ukulele of its day with a re-entrant tuning to facilitate the playing of chordal accompaniments to the songs of the day, some of which would have been, undoubtedly traditional. Hitherto an anathema in Wavlore (as you made quite clear in your Chords in Folk? thread of last year) you now seem to be telling us that chords are not only fine by you, but indeed part of Our Own Good Folk Traditional Culture. What gives?

isn't that a tad disrespectful of Hawaiians?

Didn't notice any Hawaiians in it actually - only a couple of dodgy Germans, which is par for the course in English films of the period. For more see Bell Bottom George. Otherwise you might like to read the WIKI entry for Ukulele in which we learn that the Ukulele is a 19th Century interpretation of an instrument brought to Hawaii by Portuguese immigrants which then spread in popularity into America, and thence internationally. I have a Ukulele instruction book from 1920 published in California at a time when Ukuleles were the fashion with Bright Young Things and Vaudevillian Entertainers on both sides of the pond. The instrument that George Formby plays is, in fact, a Banjo Ukulele, an American invention by Keech, circa 1920, which became popular on account of it having a greater dynamic range than than the Ukulele. For more on this see Dennis Tailor's Banjo Ukulele site.

This potted history gives testimony to the sort of Cultural Process which is likely to make you itch rather as it gives the lie to your Racist concept of Cultural Ingenuity which, as a trained Anthropologist, you must know is a complete fallacy anyway. Things move, cross-pollinate, they come, they go, they thrive or they die. Personally I find it quite fascinating. No doubt you would like to have all Cultural Process Regulated by a Stronger Fascist UN, in which case the Portuguese would have never brought their small guitars to Hawaii in the first place.

Subject: RE: The re-Imagined Village
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 25 Aug 09 - 05:10 AM

If George Formby knew better he would have been accompanying himself on an English cittern not an Hawaiian ukulele.

WAV - this has to be the most idiotic statement of yours yet, not to mention insulting to an entire tradition of English Music which still thrives to this day. Still, it makes a sort of sense for one obsessed with such a simple minded racist world-view, founded as it is on a glorification of ignorance, misinformation and downright rudeness.

Subject: RE: The re-Imagined Village
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 25 Aug 09 - 05:53 AM

your Racist concept of Cultural Ingenuity

Should be Cultural Indegeniety.

Subject: RE: The re-Imagined Village
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 25 Aug 09 - 05:56 AM

I included "imagination" in your quote re. feather plectrums S; and, from memory, in the "Chords in folk" thread, doubling the melody with a cittern was mentioned.

You are all-over-the-place, again S - e.g., I HAVE argued here on Mudcat for a stronger MORE-DEMOCRATIC UN. Do you ever consider trying again to get a degree of some DISCIPLINE, instead of taking lazy cheap-shots at me?

Subject: RE: The re-Imagined Village
From: s&r
Date: 25 Aug 09 - 06:11 AM

Why on Earth is your degree of such importance to you WAV. I have met Sean, but only on a couple of occasions; I have never met you. So I judge you both on your postings. Sean is much better educated than you are, better read, and capable of a level of analytical thought that you could only dream of.

He doesn't need me to defend him, but I write as a disinterested observer (with a degree, several diplomas, several memberships of professional bodies, a couple of Fellowships, published author, professional musician...but so what - if my reasoning didn't hold water, all these would be as valueless as your degree and four tecnical certificates).

Regards Stu

PS hope you don't mind Sean

Subject: RE: The re-Imagined Village
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 25 Aug 09 - 06:19 AM

In other words, Stu, you don't like positive English, Scottish, etc., nationalism.

Subject: RE: The re-Imagined Village
From: Sailor Ron
Date: 25 Aug 09 - 06:21 AM

WAV, I take note of your list of "English" instruments, and yes you are right about one the stylaphone, however can you in all honesty state that any of the others were invented in England [concertina excepted]? As a version of bag pipes certainly the Northumbrian did evolve here, but you could add Cornish, single & double chanters, Westmorland, Lancashire, Herefordshire etc but the point is bagpipes were not invented in tis country, nor was the recorder.

Subject: RE: The re-Imagined Village
From: Jack Campin
Date: 25 Aug 09 - 06:25 AM

I have a Ukulele instruction book from 1920 published in California at a time when Ukuleles were the fashion with Bright Young Things and Vaudevillian Entertainers on both sides of the pond.

Look up Janet Klein on YouTube for someone who's done a brilliant job of recreating the music of this era. I think she's one of the best early music performers around. I'd love to see her live.


The instrument that George Formby plays is, in fact, a Banjo Ukulele, an American invention by Keech, circa 1920, which became popular on account of it having a greater dynamic range than than the Ukulele.

Formby played both that and the wooden-body sort. I'm not sure the top-end wooden-body ones are such a good idea any more, koa wood is probably being harvested unsustainably to make them.

Subject: RE: The re-Imagined Village
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 25 Aug 09 - 06:29 AM

Ron - I posted "Instruments of (OR CLOSELY ASSOCIATED WITH) England".

Subject: RE: The re-Imagined Village
From: Sailor Ron
Date: 25 Aug 09 - 06:36 AM

WAV, fair enough, you did say that, so can you add electric guitar,Wurlitzer organ, bass guitar and full drum kit with cymbals, as all closely associated with England [& English music].

Subject: RE: The re-Imagined Village
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 25 Aug 09 - 06:40 AM

...no they are mostly "INSTRUMENTS OF (OR CLOSELY ASSOCIATED WITH) AMERICA", Ron. If we are not American we should not Americanise but, rather, love our world being multicultural.

Subject: RE: The re-Imagined Village
From: Will Fly
Date: 25 Aug 09 - 07:30 AM

I've just spent the morning playing the tune "Neil Gow's Lament For His Second Wife" on my violin, and playing the chords for it on my guitar.

Oh fuck - just realised that I'm an Englishman and that I shouldn't be playing a beautiful Scottish melody or playing instruments that aren't English. Oh well, another avenue of fun closed to me.

Hey - hang on, though. I do have g-g-ggrandparents from Kinross in Scotland, and others from County Kildare in Ireland, plus some Dutch blood which came to Norfolk in the 16th century - and god knows what else from several hundred years before that - so it might be all right after all! Hurray!

See, WAV, how stupid you look with your nonsensical pronouncements as to what musicians should or shouldn't do?