I am gone

Subject: I am gone
From: olddude
Date: 03 Aug 09 - 10:13 PM

anyone needs to get a hold of me Susan, Ditty, Spaw, Peace, Kat, Jerry and a host of other have my email.   I have had enough of the political BS up to last a lifetime ... When we allow people that steal the identity of our friends and I end up exposing that crap to my kids I lose it... I know facebook is not Mudcat but the only people who know I am close to Bruce is Here on this site ... when we decide to clean it up ... someone let me know
until then I am outta here ...

What crap!!

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: Lox
Date: 03 Aug 09 - 10:17 PM

Very sad news.

Don't know you particulary, but I've enjoyed your comments.

Take care and I hope it won't be too long before we see you again.

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Aug 09 - 11:00 PM

Pretty much what I've been feeling, Dan, but if we leave the bastards get it all to themselves even more and then we'd miss out on the beauty of the music section with Frank Hamilton, Sandy & Caroline, Art Thieme and so many others. Take a break and then maybe come back just to the music section? Regardless, it has been a real treat to have you here and esp. to hear your return to music. THAT is special! Thanks for sharing and lovin'.

luvyakat

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Aug 09 - 11:11 PM

I'm not sure which particular incident you're referring to that upset you, OldDude, but that's politics. I call it "the Great Divider", because it can make enemies out of people who would otherwise get along just fine with each other. It seems to bring out the worst in people for some reason.

I've done myself the favour of simply avoiding the serious political threads here pretty much for the past 2 or 3 days, and I'm more relaxed and happy as a result of that...and I don't feel like I'm missing anything. I recommend to others who find the political hatreds in this place getting to them to do the same...just don't get involved in the political fights if you can possibly find the determination to resist doing so.

(and I know that is not easy...)

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Aug 09 - 11:17 PM

Something to do with Facebook, is it?

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: bankley
Date: 03 Aug 09 - 11:27 PM

Old Dude, I'll miss you... you bring a freshness to the site...
a wide-eyed wonder... I stay out of the basement pretty much...
it might get lonelier at the top, but the view is much better...

In semi-related news, I've been witnessing a couple of 9/11 Truthers tear at each other in a public way, which probably makes the Big Boys happy.... hope you feel better soon...... R.

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Aug 09 - 11:37 PM

LH, if you look at the FB thread up top, Mudcatters on FB, you'll see that several of us have had our Mudcat photos hijacked for bogus memberships over there. (It gets political, so I won't muck up this thread with any more about it.)

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Aug 09 - 11:46 PM

Yeah, I see.

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: meself
Date: 03 Aug 09 - 11:49 PM

It was good having you here. Don't know what happened - but I wish it hadn't.

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: olddude
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 12:11 AM

It is nothing to do with you good people I love you and you know that and I am just incredibly pissed off, I will take a break and cool down. Amazing we let people continue here that do such things and amazing that my kids had to see that garbage and then say "that is Bruce your friend Dad?" how absolutely awful. About ready to blow a fuse ... gotta take a break ... forgive my outburst let me cool down awhile

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 12:59 AM

Dan, I'm sorry to see you go. It's frustrating to have to muck around with this kind of online nonsense, because there seems to be no way to pull the plug on the pranksters. I suppose I need to go look at my own information at Facebook. I don't use it much, though lately I've posted links to a few topical articles (I much prefer Twitter).

You've been a blessing behind the scenes for a number of people who really needed a boost up, and I for one won't forget how your generosity last fall made life so much easier for a dear friend.

Good luck sorting it all out. Stay sane.

SRS

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: Gurney
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 01:22 AM

Sorry that some have upset you, OD. I've found two sites where someone is already using my handle, but I think/hope that it is just coincidence.
What Meself said goes for me, too.

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 01:32 AM

what others have said. I've enjoyed your posts.

see ya when ya get back

sandra

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: Amergin
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 01:51 AM

ok

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: mg
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 02:20 AM

I am sorry to see you go..but is there a way to trace whoever did something with your identity? That is against the law and they should be reported and certainly kicked off mudcat and reported to whoever this gets reported to. mg

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: open mike
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 02:37 AM

oh i thought you were just bothered by the jello thread..
sorry to hear that you have been involved in such a nasty
prank. I hope it all gets cleared up. take care. laurel
p.s. I have enjoyed your music and your posts, and hope
that you will come back here again soon. I don't think
it is the actual mudcat that is the problem. there are
a lot of folks (faces) on facebook that do not come here.

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: alanabit
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 03:32 AM

Ditto to all of the above. We like having you around here. There is no easy way to stop people abusing an open site like this or Facebook. I basically try to ignore the bad stuff here and concentrate on the good - and there is still plenty of it.

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: gnomad
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 05:11 AM

I seldom post on these farewell threads, just open them to see who is the latest to depart. It is often someone whose contributions I have barely registered, so I just ignore the thread.

O.D. I don't really understand what has happened here (facebook and its like being closed books to me) so I can't comment on your reason for going, but I do know I will miss your contributions.   I hope you will feel able to return, and soon.

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: maeve
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 07:18 AM

Take your cool-down break Dan, then when you return I'd like to see more songs pouring out. I'll be in touch via email.

Be well,
maeve

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: Beer
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 07:45 AM

As Bankley said; "it may be lonely at the top", but it is also a lot fresher and enjoyable.
I do come below the line but seldom participate.
Good luck to you and here from you soon
Beer (adrien)

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 07:52 AM

Best thing everyone could do is ignore "Facebook" & the other exhibitionist sites & their waves of BS. They're largely a crock for the "me" generation & shouldn't be taken seriously at all.

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 07:57 AM

"I know facebook is not Mudcat but the only people who know I am close to Bruce is Here on this site ... when we decide to clean it up ... someone let me know
until then I am outta here ...

What crap!!"


The internet is filled with dangerous people, crazy people...The BNP has more than their fair share of both.

Yes, they're targetting Mudcat, because they're incensed, and worried, by the way the Folk World is fighting back. They know that musicians will change the way people think, far more than they ever will.

Dan, to them, you, Bruce and all songwriters who are against them are dangerous, because you can reach many more people with your songs, your words and your voices than they can. You can spread the message of Good far more than they can spread their message of Evil.

Don't let it get to you too much. They're scum.

I am, however, in complete agreement with you over Mudcat sorting something out about this.

To lose the BS section would be a great shame. Not only is it filled with some wonderfu humour, but it also has masses of interesting and informative subjects in it, the fighting back AGAINST the BNP b*stards being one of them. To lose that, would be a great shame and it would be giving them *exactly* what they want, which is Suppression. If they can suppress the voices in here, then they have won a huge battle, because in here lies an army of people who can reek havoc on the BNP and their ilk, and they damn well know it.

Bruce is being given the most inspirational anger to write some of his great political songs, and who knows, the BNP may be doing us all a favour if that happens, because when Bruce socks it 'em with his words, many people sit up and listen...and his political songs are great!

So tell your kids that your pal Bruce is pissing the BNP cowards off so much that they're doing what they're doing to him.

That's what they are, cowards..snivelling little scumbags who have to take the hatred that has twisted their souls, out to other people.

Facebook should be sued to Kingdom Come for what they're allowing to happen. Hopefully, that WILL happen.

Mudcat carries 'weight' these days, perhaps far more than Joe and Max realise. The BNP realise it, and that's why they're trying to close the political part of it down, by doing what they're doing.

Just my opinion, but I think the time has now come for the 'Guests' button to be turned off, so that anyone who now posts in here HAS to register. It would make Mudcat a far nicer place..it would make the Mods lives much easier too..and it would ensure that 'orrid little oiks who appear in here to post personally abusive messages, knowing that they cannot be PM'd or traced, would no longer bother with Mudcat.

They're of no loss to anyone.

It won't stop the scumbags from reading what's written here....but it'll sure make certain that they can't upset people *in* here.

This is a Community, and some of those within it are now under attack.
We should all stand together to counter that attack.


Write a song about this, Dan...

I know you can do it...

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 08:07 AM

Now, listen here, Oldster...

Just take a few days off and come on back... Hey, this is the innernet and for the most part folks is purdy okay.... Yeah, some are jerks but that's life...

Yeah, the jerks have pounded on me over the years here and at another site I go to but in the final anaylsis, who the "f" cares??? It's their blood pressure and karma... Not ours... Stand up for what you believe, fight them when ***you like*** and if you ain't the mood then ignore 'um... All they want is to get you to react because most of them are eat up with emotional and psychological problems... You ain't and I ain't... Their problem, not yours...

Like I said, take a few days off... Don't let the sociopaths run you away... Don't gove them that power... Underneath it all these folks are not all that tough.... They really are cowards and that's why the innernet is the perfect place for them to ***play*** bully... In the real world these people are punks and whimps...

That's the real deal... That's why they hide beneath their little handles... That's why they don't have any transparancy... That's why they don't attend Getaways...

Bobert

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 08:39 AM

Don't forget to keep pounding the "[e-mail]" email addy.

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: kendall
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 08:45 AM

Jeez man, dont let the bastards drive you away!

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: topical tom
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 08:47 AM

Dan, I'm truly sorry to see you leave and hope that you will decide to return sometime later on. I enjoyed your music and interesting posts. Take care of yourself and cursed be they who cause a man like you to have to leave Mudcat.Remember, though, I'm sure you have many friends here who wish you well, as the posts attest to.Hope to see you "down the road"!

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 10:07 AM

Can I just ask Joe and Max something....

Joe, who would you rather see posting in here, 'Guest' supporters of the BNP, or fine musicians, songwriters and really kind, supportive people such as Dan?

Do you feel it's right that good people are being driven away because Mudcat won't stand up to the bad?

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 10:20 AM

Lizzie, what does 'standing up to the bad' mean? How does it look if Mudcat does it? Leave Facebook out of it since Max has no control over Facebook.

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 10:59 AM

The use of your image without your permission is illegal. I assume FB knows this. Putting words in your mouth is illegal.

To use lousy Latin: Illegitimi non carborundum.

But if you can find who did it...well, computer geeks know ways....

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: GUEST,hg
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 10:59 AM

Well, I would like to see any BNP threads eliminated if that is possible. It seems they are causing all this trouble between catters and Facebook.

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: TheSnail
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 11:07 AM

GUEST,hg

Well, I would like to see any BNP threads eliminated if that is possible

Which is precisely what the BNP trolls are trying to achieve. The reputation of British folk music is under serious threat from being tainted by these idiots. I see no point in trying to engage with them in any way but I Think it is vital to make sure that everyone is kept aware of their true nature.

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 11:25 AM

"Lizzie, what does 'standing up to the bad' mean? How does it look if Mudcat does it? Leave Facebook out of it since Max has no control over Facebook."

Well, Jeri, I guess it means that messages like this:

RE: I am gone
From: GUEST,hg - PM
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 10:59 AM

Well, I would like to see any BNP threads eliminated if that is possible. It seems they are causing all this trouble between catters and Facebook.

....wouldn't be allowed on Mudcat.

Yes, of course, I understand that Facebook is nothing to do with Max, but looking after folks on here is and making sure that Mudcat is a place of integrity, as far as you can make it.

I just think it's very sad that people such as Dan feel they no longer want to post here because Mudcat continues to allow the 'Guest' poster policy which is like a red rag to a bull, a moth to a flame, to those who want to cause trouble on the internet, that's all.

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 11:27 AM

"How does it look if Mudcat does it?"

I feel it looks as if Mudcat has adopted 'zero tolerance' towards people who want to hurt and wound others, and that's got to be a good thing, hasn't it?

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: Gervase
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 11:30 AM

Well said Lizzie.

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: ClaireBear
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 11:40 AM

OldDude, I understand your anger, but I'll miss you and hope you come back soon.

Claire

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: Gweltas
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 11:48 AM

Come back to us soon and just please ignore the smart-ass hackers. They are pathetically sad people who are so desperate for attention that, if they can't get positive attention ..... negative attention is fine by them. The only solution is to deny them the satisfaction of knowing that their actions have caused hurt, or even been noticed. They so absolutely HATE not be noticed !!
I once had the unpleasant experience, as a moderator in an otherwise well behaved and polite chat room, when some little dirt bag came in to the room , using an oh so subtle "tweak" on my own chat nickname and began using the most agressive and obscene language to all in there. I kicked him/her out, but he/she kept coming back in, so we agreed to close the chat room and I stayed off line for a week. It was really weird and upsetting to see my "false double" being so offensive to people that I respected.
Such maliciously personal attacks are shocking, very hard to deal with emotionaly, and leave one feeling angry and vulnerable. You have my sincere sympathy.
I would also like to take this opportunity to tell you how much I have enjoyed your songs, your singing, and your posts, and I fervently hope it will not be long till we all welcome you back into Mudcat fold.
Best Wishes and God bless,
Anne XX

Subject: RE: I am a real gone Cat
From: Severn
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 11:50 AM

You'll be missed for your kindness and help given, your music and your good humor. Take the time you need and hopefully come back soon. Keep in touch, whatever.

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: SINSULL
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 11:50 AM

I have read all the posts in this thread and don't understand how Max is being held responsible for Facebook's failings. Tak up the problem with them and if they are unresponsive close your account.

I too hope olddude remains even as a non-member. I enjoy his enthusiasm, his music and his posts. PM has gone.

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: Azizi
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 12:27 PM

Count me in as another member who is sorry to see Dan leave. Hopefully, he will eventually return.

I recognize that Mudcat is not a democracy. But if it were, I'd be in favor of guest posting only above the line and never in the BS section unless

1. a member posts as a guest in order to ask a question or share a personal situation of a sensitive nature

2. members post to Secret Santa and other such secret threads

3. a member has moderator approved personas such as Little Hawks's Chongo Chimp and Shane.

Under this scenario, the moderators would make an exception to the "No Guest posting in the BS section" rule.


Also, I'm not computer tech savvy, but it would seem to me that those administrators who know computers would be able to catch and ban a member who is creating "sockpuppet" Mudcat memberships (joining under a different name). It also seems to me that any Mudcat member who is identified as having used other member's name, identifying information, and or photos/videos without that member's prior permission should be banned from this site.


I think that members/supporters of the BNP would love that Mudcat banned any discussion about BNP polices and activities. But I agree with those who have said that we shouldn't give the BNP what they want. If Mudcat were to ban the mention of BNP, that would mean that discussions about Folk Against Fascism and other such organizations would also be banned or at least would be severely limited. And I think that would be a serious mistake.

Lastly, I recognize that this thread has-in part-become one that raises such meta questions as "Where are we? Why? And what can we do better?" such as this one has become. I think every organization and community needs to consider these questions every now and then.

I sincerely hope that this post and other meta type posts aren't deleted from this thread.

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 12:45 PM

Hopefully, Dan will be back. I respect him, and I think a lot of us have been through that 'I've HAD it with this place' thing.

OK, so we eliminate all discussion of the BNP.
Then we have to eliminate all discussion of the KKK, white supremacists, then it's any political party that's ever been linked to those things. And we can't discuss Nazis, so no threads about the modern ones or WWII are allowed, then we purge the songs that might offend people.

Azizi, that isn't possible unless every member is required to post from the same computer and ONLY that specific computer and it has to have its own IP address permanently assigned.

As for no guest posts in BS, I've supported that. Keep in mind that to steal pictures from Mudcat, the person has to be a member. He/she may never have posted to Mudcat though.

There are nasty people all over the internet and there are subjects that continuously wind people up. The main consideration is your own participation. Our own contribution IS the ONLY THING we have control over. If we don't have control, it's a problem we individually need to fix for ourselves and not try to blame on someone else, be it Mudcat or a troll here.

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 12:52 PM

There are ways that BNP trolls could be exposed. But they would require changes to the ways that things are done here.

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 12:55 PM

Lao-Tse, in his great teachings of Taoism (a philosophy, not a religion), said, "By opposing an enemy you give it strength."

One has to think about that at some length or read the Taoist literature at some length to get what he was driving at, though. If you just read the statement above and react to it instantly, you won't get what he was driving at at all, and you'll just get angry...thinking he is advising knuckling under to evil. Well, he isn't. He's advising an independent course of your own, rather than a life based upon reaction against others.

So I won't go on about it much, cos it would just provoke arguments here that would go on and on and on...

But here's another example of the same thing. Mother Teresa was asked if she would attend an antiwar demonstration. She said, "No, but I will attend a peace demonstration."

By locking horns with people over sore issues, specially people you can't change, you bring a lot more strife into the world...and you stimulate those very people into gearing up for major conflict with YOU...and their commitment to their cause becomes stronger. By planting a garden, on the other hand...by making something beautiful...by playing great folk music of your own...or by contributing to brotherhood in your society in many positive ways, you improve the world around you and you find peace and harmony in your own experience of life.

And, no....I'm not going to fight with anyone here about that. ;-) I don't wish to, and it wouldn't improve the situation for either them or me.

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 01:20 PM

"OK, so we eliminate all discussion of the BNP.
Then we have to eliminate all discussion of the KKK, white supremacists, then it's any political party that's ever been linked to those things. And we can't discuss Nazis, so no threads about the modern ones or WWII are allowed, then we purge the songs that might offend people."



I don't think anyone's asking for that, Jeri. In fact surely the opposite is true, in that we don't want to be suppressed from discussing any of the above subjects, or many others.

It's the 'Guest' policy that seems to cause trouble, over and again.

And in answer to a comment from above there, no-one's blaming Max for the Facebook problems are they? They're simply saying, I think, that allowing the same people/person to post as a Guest in here, is wrong.

And it is.

What's the problem with making sure that ALL who post to your board are traceable?

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: GUEST,hg
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 01:28 PM

Well Jeri, if mudcatters could stop Shambles from posting repeatedly that we should have the right to free speech, why not do the same with hate groups? The logic here escapes me.
harpy

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 01:31 PM

The one thing Max can do something about on FB is delete the fake members of the Mudcat group over there which he has done, and gladly. The other admin there, Mike, can also do that, so write to them if you have a bogus one there as a member of the FB Mudcat.

I agree with Jeri, we need to end Guest postings to the BS. I don't know how we can do that and still allow for the secret santa play and some of the regular "guests" such as Chongo, unless each one was assigned a "Guest, whatever name" which stayed permanent, but that wouldn't work well for the santa thing and it would smack of more than one membership which is generally not allowed.

I don't think we should start banning things, BUT I DO think we should have a separate section for all BS pertaining to politics!

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: open mike
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 01:43 PM

who is the Mike Gibson who started the mudcat facebook page?

does he have a nick name here?

he and Max co-host the facebook page, and can hopefully control
what happens on that page, alone, if not all of facebook!

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 01:44 PM

Well, Dan I'm just so glad that I have contact with you and your music other than here on mudcat because I would feel a great loss otherwise.

What is happening on facebook is a serious matter. These people have access to personal information of the people who unwittingly accept the friends' invites. I think that one of the points that Dan is making is that we should all be taking positive steps wherever we can to discourage and put a stop to things like this.

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: gnu
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 02:11 PM

I really don't know enough about any of it to comment on the specific problem, but I would like to offer a couple of observations.

First, thanks again, Fearless Max for taking the freedom of speech to the highest level you possibly could, only using banishment as a last resort after Mudcatters were repeatedly bullied and taunted.

Secondly, Mudcatters also have another freedom, as has been offered in this and many other threads... many, many, many times... you don't have to read or post to any thread. You can start a thread that says you are not going to read a particular thread. It's been done. Really. I read some of it.

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 02:13 PM

It's extremely easy for a facebook group's admins to evict a member of the group and to delete posts, but the admins don't have access to the IP numbers of the members, so it's not possible for an admin to track one person using multiple facebook accounts. That would have to be done by the people at facebook, I think. If someone is determined to cause problems in a group by using multiple facebook accounts, it could potentially create quite a lot of work for the admins. This work would be made a lot easier by people alerting the admins to the presence of a copycat account, but if the admins had to search for them constantly themselves, it would be daunting.

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: irishenglish
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 02:35 PM

As a mudcatter who hasn't been around much recently, and a facebook member, and a mudcat on facebook member, and as a supporter of several causes on facebook I am certainly dismayed. I would certainly argue vigilance for the facebook mudcat moderators, or just delete the group and start it up in the near future. LH, I'm sorry, but I can't let your statement go...beautiful the thought may be. If we never took contrary positions with those we disagree with, even those that are entrenched in their viewpoint, things would be pretty bleak LH. Sometimes you need to fight, or at least argue, and come at people again and again with your thoughts and evidence, let them come at you with theirs, and then come at them even harder if you believe YOURS is the just opinion. I am dismayed by this BNP stuff, but I will not run with my tail between my legs for fear that it makes THEIR cause look stronger.

Secondly, I agree with those seeking a no guest posting rule. SOmething else I proposed once, and which virtually every other forum of any type I have been on has, is the word moderator next to a moderator's name, so that when a moderator is engaged in a thread, potential troublemakers are aware that their post ain't gonna be there for long, or might scare them away altogether. What's the point of having a username and a password to sign in with when I could just call myself a name, post something inflammatory, then log out, call myself another name and post something even more inflammatory? Nothing personal to any moderators and what have you...but this system is flawed. I have seen these kinds of discussions on here before, and nothing gets changed, just the same old issue a warning, and delete a post. How about someone tell us why hard changes aren't made at mudcat? I'm sorry, no disrespect intended, but when I see stuff like this after being away for a bit, it makes me wonder why I still click mudcat on my favs. I do click it because I enjoy the discussions, even get enjoyment out of butting heads with people from time to time, something I would like to continue.

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 02:50 PM

"Sometimes you need to fight, or at least argue"

Yes. Sometimes you do, and a Taoist will do that, but only when it's genuinely necessary for clear practical reasons, not for the emotional satisfaction. Taoism is a very practical philosophy that way.

So do it when it's necessary. For sure. But....don't make it a full-time emotional habit, that's all. If you see what I mean.

Many people lose themselves in emotionally-based conflicts, and it becomes the dominant feature of their lives. I think that's what Lao-Tse had in mind when he advised seeking positive actions of one's own rather than engaging in continual negative battles with "enemies".

If you look for enemies in the world...you'll always find them. Guaranteed. That's probably the key error that lies at the heart of fascism (and of all oppressive philosophies)...the determination to seek out, find, and destroy various supposed "enemies".

It's used to justify extremism and hostility of every kind. It's used to justify torture, brutality, accusation, murder, condemnation, slander, war, hatred...and also extreme self-righteousness in the pursuit of a supposedly holy cause or creed. Such attitudes are dangerous, and in the end they are self-defeating. The end, though, can take a long time coming, and a lot of good people will get hurt before it comes.

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 02:57 PM

Dan, I hope you keep posting your songs on Youtube. I spend a lot of time on Youtube and will keep checking for new postings under your name.

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: irishenglish
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 03:05 PM

Understood LH. But in this place, this community, this forum, this garden as you say, is it not necessary to fight or argue against those who steal identities? Who subvert the rules on here by using multiple names? Who bounce from mudcat to facebook to gather names and faces to names? Are my fellow mudcatters wrong to see people who do that as enemies? What's the positive action we should undertake? Silence?

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 03:32 PM

I have no argument with you there, IrishEnglish. By all means, yes, it is necessary to take preventative action against people who steal identities...here or elsewhere.

I don't know if I'd see people who do that as "enemies" exactly. It's maybe not the specific word I'd choose. I'd see them as troublesome individuals who are definitely creating a problem here...one that needs to be solved (as best it can be).

"Enemies" are an expense I don't really want to be burdened with in this life. ;-) But existing problems do need to be solved.

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: topical tom
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 04:23 PM

Excuse my ignorance (I haven't mastered the acronyms yet) but what does BNP stand for?

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: bankley
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 04:58 PM

British National Party .....or Big Nazi Prick

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: Mississippi Saxaphone
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 05:04 PM

........ or British Numpty Party

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 05:09 PM

Dan

If you go then the the person (or persons) perpetrating the fake profiles on facebook wins. There really isn't anything Cat moderators can do about what is happening in Facebook.

The best thing to do is to stay, not budge an inch regards your feelings and beliefs.

Mudcat is filled with wonderful people. I hope you are just going for a cool down period and will be back among the wonderful folk soon.

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: gnu
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 05:32 PM

irishenglish... "But in this place, this community, this forum, this garden as you say, is it not necessary to fight or argue against those who steal identities?"

Sure... fill yer boots. Keep us informed as to your progress and let us know what we can do to help.

VirginiaTam... ahyup.

Really... anyone with any magic bullets should lock and load and lay down some ord. Fill the air with it. Call in a strike. Set out the Clays. Crosshair the mothers and pull them a six.

I just don't understand what Max can do except provide a forum to fight the subjugators??? Can anyone edify me otherwise?

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 05:43 PM

Gnu - talk to a pointyhead. Computers can do wonderful things and so can user terms.

Thread closed per originator's request
joe clone

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: gnu
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 05:50 PM

Ricky... I have no idea what you mean.

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 06:06 PM

He thinks there's some sort of magic Max could do to figure out who's swiping identities from here (even if they've never posted) and then make them go away forever.

Knowing what I know, there's no way anyone could prevent me from posting or joining, and if I could figure it out, a dedicated no-life vandal could do so too.

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 06:23 PM

I play Facebook games, and am always looking for extra 'FBFriends' for participants in these games (even trying to con mudcatters to join... !!!!). Consequentially, I have added a large number of people I don't really know, and have mostly minimal contact with, except for a few nice people I discovered in one particular game. However, I have deleted many such after they started making nasty public comments, or invited me to nasty groups.

Among the many was an obviously fascist group of rabidly anti-arab people who claim that their particular mythical sky fairy insists that they alone can live on a particular piece of ground, and that they must drive away or murder every one else, for instance - the BNP is not the only group of nasties trying to manipulate Facebook. I was only able to react after their behaviour had alerted me.

I am also reminded of a recent particular nasty guy who tried to cause Facebook problems by pestering members here to shut down discussion on a particular topic related to things he appeared to be making money from. He had boasted that he had previously had such things removed from other forums due to his bullying, so it obviously works. Of course, when he started on me, I had all the addresses at my fingertips to lodge complaints with.... :-) Eventually, max had to shut him down here...

I do generally support max and his methods, but I have always said that unlimited anon posting here was likely to cause problems... we were eventually purged of some allegedly great muso (who had to have HIS public identity protected) who been apparently intentionally offensive for a long time, only after he started making personal gutter attacks on my mother...

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 06:25 PM

Right, Jeri.

Now, say, there are troublesome young men in my town who wander around at their wits end (which is never that far away...) looking for excitement, maybe some trouble they can cause, something to ease their general unconscious level of hostility and frustration.

What if I were to remark loudly as each of these fellows went by on the sidewalk, "LOOK at that disgusting excuse for a human being! What an asshole he is! We need to do something about jerks like that in order to have a decent town."

Heh! ;-D As if I was so foolish. What do you think would happen if I were to make such remarks and draw the hostile attentions of such lowlifes?

Hmmmm?

Well, when you engage in endless tirades on the Internet about various groups of people you don't like...and the Internet, after all, IS exactly like a public intersection in a town with anyone at all walking by in easy earshot.... then what happens?

You get a response from those people you don't like. And it's not the response you were hoping for.

That's why I say, IF you want folk music to get proper exposure endorsing the social causes you feel are good causes...then your point of actual power is to go out into the world...not onto Mudcat Cafe...and PLAY folk music in support of the good causes you endorse.

Your point of no power at all is to engage in long, bitter diatribes on this forum about the people who happen to be using folk music in a way you don't like. That may make you feel great for a short while...but it changes nothing.

And in the meantime, I think you are drawing ants to the picnic.

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: gnu
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 06:27 PM

IF that were the case, Jeri, my question would then be, why it is Max's job?

Again, I should say, I have no idea what "swiping identities from here" even means. I don't even purport to understand anything more than the fact that some good buddies of mine are really pissed off. So, I know it's serious, but I just don't understand it or how Max could fix it.

Sorry for my ignorance.

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 06:37 PM

That's the point, gnu. Max has enough to do without trying to perform the impossible.

Max's job is whatever Max thinks his job is.

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 10:35 PM

Ya know, the photos and profiles section still exists....

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: pdq
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 11:08 PM

Dan,

Thank you very much or your CD. You are a fine writer in a universal way, as with good early Country Music.

If you leave, you concede the battle to your enemies. That is not the American way. Best of luck at any rate...

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Aug 09 - 01:38 AM

Jeri, you mistake my meaning. I am not going to discuss here (where all can see) what could be done. Nothing is foolproof, but there are things that could be done that would make it much easier to expose the arseholes and restrict what they do here (and collect from here).

What they do on Fakebook has to be controlled by Fakebook, but again there would be ways here of facilitating what would need to be done there (and of twisting Fakebook's arm).

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Aug 09 - 02:48 AM

Unce again, I find myself in agreement with Little Hawk, but I would add that the "liberal/democratic" stance has become so convoluted, as to be almost impossible to defend with a reasoned argument.

Most of the good people here are so short of intellectual "ammunition" that they feel they must resort to personal abuse to get their point across.

Another good example of this was the attack on Mr Griffin, and the disruption of his meeting by what was basically a gang of thugs using the very tactics that you all complain about from the BNP.

If these people are indeed fascist or racist, those parts of their arguments can be easily exposed.....but every part of their policy must be dealt with even the parts which cause us problems....like the economic immigration issue.

Ranting and raving is always counter productive and has caused the problems you are now experiencing with other "social networking" sites....sites which in my opinion are better avoided by adults!

This storm in a teacup reminds me of my years in the YCL and CP when every statement by the party was met by screams of "Commie" agitators"..."Reds under the bed" "Left wing scum" etc by the "liberal establishment".....most of the things the party agitated for have come to pass....minimum wage.... right to union recognision....even nationalisation of the banks :0), but at the time the abuse only made us more determined....Ake

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 05 Aug 09 - 03:23 AM

I am leaving facebook. I have left a message on my profile stating my reasons why. I have removed my photos and will start notifying people in my network personally to tell them why I am removing them as friends (to protect them).

Max and Mudcat moderators would not be able to stop anyone strolling in off Ether Avenue, reading through a few threads, collecting IDs, information, pics, etc and building fake profiles on any social networking site.

By the same token, just because the MC mods can follow guest posts by way of the ISPs they are sent from, does not mean they know who is doing the dirty deeds on Facebook. Even if they did suspect a real Mudcat member, they should not block MC posts on a hunch that they are doing nasty things on another site.

Facebook has nothing to do with Mudcat. Let's keep it that way.

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: Gervase
Date: 05 Aug 09 - 03:24 AM

Ah, so the Communist Party of Great Britain was so successful that it quietly folded its tents and decamped in 1991 once its aims had been achieved? Or does it continue to go from strength to strength?

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Aug 09 - 05:56 AM

Come on Gervase, I didn't suggest the CP was "successful" but the Party did raise many relevant issues which were all dismissed under a hail of abuse.....encouraged by the "liberal media"...
The Commies were the bogey men in those days, today it is the BNP. Both were and are, simply being used by the system and the media who support that system, to conceal the fatal flaws in "liberal" policy.

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: kendall
Date: 05 Aug 09 - 10:56 AM

"Most of the good people here are so short of intellectual ammunition" etc. Are you serious? I'll bet most of us can spell convoluted.

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Aug 09 - 11:29 AM

Yeah! "conveloote-" no, wait. "counvaluuted" Hmm. "connvaluet-" Dang it! Um.....

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Aug 09 - 11:55 AM

"Once upon a time, I coodn't even spel Injuneer, and now I are one!"
(Notice on the wall of the apprentices' workshop, back when I was an engineering apprentice).

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 05 Aug 09 - 12:17 PM

'Sup to you, but I'd say stick around, Dan. This is one of the better corners of the internet and you seem to be one of the good guys. Or have a break. I do with monotonous regularity. It's ok. You get a distance.

I get LH's point about emotional reasoning - it's when the statements made are about making the individual making them feel better about themselves for a moment, rather than doing anything to resolve the percieved problem. It's an approach that can certainly raise the heat...

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: SINSULL
Date: 05 Aug 09 - 12:27 PM

A "perceived problem" can only be solved by the perceiver. Take it back to the source: Facebook.

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Aug 09 - 12:31 PM

That's it, Spleen Cringe.

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Aug 09 - 04:44 PM

Kendal...I didn't mean to imply that anyone here is stupid, I meant that it is getting more and more difficult to put up a reasonable argument for "liberalism"...and much easier for people with differing political opinions to attack it.

We are supposed to be a liberal democracy yet we attack other countries at will....try to criminalise free speech and free thought...allow our system to rob us of billions of £/$ and saddle our kids with a huge national debt.

Your remark about spelling was well made, I'm a manual worker who enjoys folk music and likes to play guitar as relaxation, about the only time I do any writing is on Mudcat....I try to keep a check on spelling with the dictionary but I am often in a hurry to get out to work in the morning.
Please accept my apologies, I will try to take more time and care from now on. Thanks for pointing out the mistake, perhaps I can get Joe to correct the offending word....Ake

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Aug 09 - 04:53 PM

I think that that partly depends on the meaning you ascribe to "liberalism". If you mean "laissez faire economics", I agree.

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: Jeri
Date: 05 Aug 09 - 04:55 PM

I fixed the spelling. Normally, we don't bother, but it's obviously more of an issue than I would have thought.

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 05 Aug 09 - 05:13 PM

I've also enjoyed Dan's music and comments - and hope for more soon.
(There's what we want, the tactics we are prepared to use, AND regulations aimed at controlling them.)

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Aug 09 - 05:13 PM

Kendall... on re-reading my message it seems I may be innocent of the crime after all!
In the first word of the message "Unce" I have used U instead of O, and on inspecting my keyboard I found that those two letters are very close together...only the letter I separates them!

I'm beginning to think that perhaps my sight is deteriorating...if this is so, I am very grateful to you for pointing out the evidence, I could have made numerous spelling mistakes and inadvertently upset all the other orthographers on Mudcat.....much obliged!..AKE

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Aug 09 - 05:17 PM

Thank you Jeri.....you have saved my blushes!!....May I continue to post?

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: Jeri
Date: 05 Aug 09 - 05:20 PM

Yes. For now, you're safe Ake.

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: kendall
Date: 05 Aug 09 - 05:23 PM

Apology accepted, and I agree with your explanation.
Did you take your name from King Tut's uncle??

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Aug 09 - 05:51 PM

Ach! away back tae yer orthography Kendall, an' lea' the Egyptology tae the experts!.....Dae ye no' ken that Ake wis Tut's faithur :0)

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: kendall
Date: 05 Aug 09 - 07:45 PM

That was before my time.

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: Amos
Date: 05 Aug 09 - 09:43 PM

Well, maybe, but not your mum's--you could ask her...



A

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 Aug 09 - 05:49 AM

Jessup !!!

CELLAR #################

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Aug 09 - 05:52 AM

re: verification.

www.spamarrest.com

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: Severn
Date: 06 Aug 09 - 11:57 AM

Of course, the REAL purpose of contributing to these "leaving" threads is to keep them going THROUGH the alleged hiatus, and since the leaving party has to, through need or sheer vanity, view and even acknowledge "his own" thread (The "Goner-rea" victims never just leave and stop reading these things), by the time they cool off and decide to officially come back, they've really technically never left. So Dan, we KNOW you're still reading this. If you're NOT, please drop in and remind us of the fact from time to time so we can be sure we're not just entertaining ourselves.

Though that's not a bad thing, actually......











Right, Dan?

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: gnu
Date: 06 Aug 09 - 12:26 PM

Spot on, Sev. Fact is, ya have ta at least read what is said so ya can defend yer honour if someone hangs a poor judgement on ya. The only alternative is that some 'Catter might defend yer honour for ya... in Dan's case, he has no need to read this thread until he cools down and graces us with his presence once again.

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: GUEST,guest jeddy from parents house
Date: 06 Aug 09 - 12:50 PM

dan,
i am really sorry to hear that something or someone has upset you. please keep in touch through facebook and i hope you come back soon.
we will miss your gentle humour.

take care my sweet

jade x x x x

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: maeve
Date: 06 Aug 09 - 01:10 PM

That's correct, gnu. And since Dan has indicated that he'll cool down and return, we can look forward to more of his kind-hearted encouragement and beautiful songs.

maeve

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: kendall
Date: 06 Aug 09 - 02:09 PM

I don't find Facebook all that great, so I just canceled it.

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: Emma B
Date: 06 Aug 09 - 02:16 PM

I love Facebook - you can filter out what you want and chat to friends no longer active on mudcat.
Great to share news, views and photos with friends without all the namecalling and in an equitable environment as well.

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: gnu
Date: 06 Aug 09 - 03:51 PM

Namecalling... yes, I have heard a lot of namecalling going on for certain members... a lot.

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: open mike
Date: 06 Aug 09 - 04:19 PM

i would not expect Old Dude to participate in face book at all
that is where this problem reared its ugly head.

it seems as if the prob. is on FB not mudcat.

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: SINSULL
Date: 06 Aug 09 - 04:28 PM

I believe the problem arose when the person attacking his FaceBook page moved on to his FAMILY's page thus involving the entire clan in a nasty business.

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 06 Aug 09 - 04:30 PM

I enjoy facebook and I am one of Dan's friends there so I hope he doesn't leave it!

I would also support his suggestion that the issue of guest posts is addressed.

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: Emma B
Date: 06 Aug 09 - 04:44 PM

I can only urge Dan not to leave FB too, I enjoy his posts - it seems that all the profile information has been taken from mudcat and I think I'm correct in assuming that can only be accessed by another member?

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: wysiwyg
Date: 06 Aug 09 - 06:12 PM

Been away-- missed whatever happened-- Dan, a break can cure many a sore spot.

love,

~Susan

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Aug 09 - 06:34 PM

Most of the pix did NOT come from Mudcat.

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: Emma B
Date: 06 Aug 09 - 06:51 PM

Maybe not aLL Richard but for sure a lot of the information about the individual clones, their occupations etc did!

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: GUEST,Sorcha
Date: 06 Aug 09 - 07:21 PM

I have PM'd Max and asked him to remove my Profile anyway. He has now done that.

I suggetst that if you are concerned about Mudcat things appearing on Facebook that you do this also.

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Aug 09 - 10:45 PM

Mostly the info was/is here on the threads.

Subject: RE: I am gone
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Aug 09 - 04:15 AM

I have today taken the first tentative steps towards trying to interest an online legal journal in the laggardly approach of Fakebook towards protecting people from BNP impersonation and intimidation - which is given striking contrast by the recent announcement by YouTube of its increased efforts to protect users from abuse. In particular YouTube announces that impersonation and adverse comments are harrassment.

Thread closed per originator's request
joe clone