BS: US Health Care Reform

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 02:52 PM

Okay, on second thought, I'll be fair with you, GfS.

If someone else can reach the sites you recommend and can then provide a proper link or URL, I will be willing to try them again.

And pending that, later this afternoon, when I have time, I will, carefully, with shields up, try them again.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 04:48 PM

">101 to the 405 North which turns into the 5, (He'll know where that is)<"


               Oh yes, I see now. Thank you so much!

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 06:10 PM

All I was able to find googling "Olive View Hospital" and "immigrants" was a bunch of stuff that simply didn't relate, plus a number of articles about Michael D. Antonovich ("Republican member of the Los Angeles County Board of Supervisors"), who seems to be having a real snit about undocumented workers. Not unlike some of the snits being thrown here. Hardly what I would call an unbiased source. He strikes me as a typical politician riding a currently popular hobby horse.

Anybody else know anything about this guy?

My apologies, GfS, if I jumped to conclusions, but I did try one of the sites you recommended—again—and got the same warning screen again. Perhaps you didn't intend that. Sometimes it just happens with particular sites.

But my immediate thought was of someone who infested this forum some time back (anybody remember the guy who named himself after two different guitar companies?) who took to the little prank of directing people to a possible computer screwing virus. He was a nasty piece of work, and eventually got himself banned for his general unpleasantness and his cute little tricks.

Don Firth

P. S. Once again, I stick in the sidebar that the subject of this thread is U. S. Health Care Reform. This matter of undocumented workers using a public health care system is strictly a side issue, or another issue entirely—not a deal breaker!

There are a couple of dozen countries on this planet with a national health care systems, some totally tax supported, some incorporating insurance companies but putting a limit on the profits they can make (and those insurance companies seem to regard it worthwhile to stay in business). What happened to "good old Yankee ingenuity?" Have we grown so inept as a country that we can't work out something even remotely similar to other systems, adopted by less wealthy countries, that work?

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 06:16 PM

Are you referring to Kent Ovation, Don? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 08:09 PM

You remember ole Esteban Daisy-Rock, don't you, Little Hawk?    ;-D

Don Firth

(P. S. I'll PM you as soon as I get a chance to give the video a decent listen. Might be tomorrow.)

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 Nov 09 - 09:21 AM

And then there' this:


http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/21/health/policy/21grady.html

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Nov 09 - 09:27 AM

Showdown at the OK Coral- 8:00 pm tonight!!!

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Nov 09 - 02:55 PM

Preventing illegals from participating in the reformed health care system will not solve the problem that is described in the article above about Grady Hospital. The best way to deal with that problem is to allow them to buy into the system like everyone else. That way their money is helping to support the system instead of the current situation in which they are only acting as a drain on the system.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 Nov 09 - 03:05 PM

I would agree with that, Carol, except for the fact that they aren't suppose to be here in the first place. If they attempt to buy in, the vendor should be obligated to report them to the immigration authorities. So where would we go with that?

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Nov 09 - 04:28 PM

From the New York Times article:
". . . a national study by the RAND Corporation concluded that illegal immigrants account for about 1.3 percent of public health spending."

Los Angeles does not make a good example of the overall situation because the percentage of foreign born (both documented and undocumented) is far higher there than in other American cities, so singling out L. A. and claiming that it is illustrative of a nationwide problem is disingenuous.

And the same can be said for what might be called "hot spots" like Grady in Atlanta. These examples are not typical of the country at large.

Of course, it would be a lot easier and much less expensive if these folks who need dialysis would just stay home and die, like God intended.

As I say in my post at 20 Nov 09 - 06:10 p.m., just below; the P. S., second paragraph. Have Americans become so incompetent that we can't simple look at what other countries that are far less wealthy than we are, and learn by their examples? Or is it that we are so egotistical that we simply can't admit the even Taiwan has a better health care system than we have? One that is all-inclusive, as good as if not better, and far less expensive?

It's not as if we don't have the money and couldn't pay a bit more in taxes if needed to bring about a good health care system.

Americans spend $61 billion a year on soft drinks, $15 billion a year on bottled water, $8 billion a year on cosmetics, $41 billion a year on pets. They spend $9.4 billion a year on Starbucks' coffee alone. Medical spending on obesity-related conditions is estimated to have reached $147 billion a year.

[These figures derived by bringing up google and typing "Americans spend on—" and then "soft drinks," "bottled water," or whatever. Usually within the first few listings, you'll find the figure.]

And the undocumented worker matter is a side issue and does, in no way, justify abandoning the effort. It's a excuse and a red herring.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 Nov 09 - 05:26 PM

Not really, Don. All they have to do is put the E-veriy stipulation back in the bill. Then it becomes a non-issue and they can go on to more important elements of the problem, like tort reform.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Nov 09 - 06:57 PM

The problem, Don, seems to be that the "haves" in US society tend to regard the "have nots" as indolent losers, and absolutely refuse to give up any portion of their wealth to help the less fortunate.

They would rather pay out $1000 dollars a month for rip off private care, than let go of a few cents in the dollar for comprehensive cover, that is until they develop an ongoing condition that their insurers reject.

Then listen to them whine.

Civilised health care systems don't HAVE any conditions which are not covered.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 02:30 AM

One more down. How many still to go?

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 09:01 AM

Well, here comes the deals... Watch and see just how many of our tax dollars go to the states that are represented (if you can call that) by the knothead Dems... Makes me sick... I'd rather see Reid just tell them to "stick it", go for reconciliation with the House bill, put together a decent program and send it to the floor where it would only require 51 votes...

That would send a clear message to the foot-draggers and black-mailers...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: heric
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 12:55 PM

It's too late to put together a decent program.

We are going to get coverage to a lot more people, including through Medicaid. That's the main point. But the cost curve is going to go up both in terms of providers and administration. Program costs are going to go up; bureaucratic meddling is going to impair patient autonomy and choice on an increasing scope of demographics. Medicare benefits are going to be reduced in practice. Deficits will increase as tax rates will not go up to compensate for higher costs and subsidies, even if the politicians have the will to enact tax increases already proposed.

Insurance and employee benefits-related industries will get to stay fat and happy with expanded protections against state government and state courts.

Maybe it has to be this way but that's not exactly what I had hoped for when I voted for change.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: heric
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 02:17 PM

On the subject of illegal aliens: They way I understand the current posture from Robert Pear of the NYT: The House version allows undocumented aliens to purchase on the exchanges without direct premium assistance. The Senate version doesn't allow them to purchase on the exchanges at all.

Proponents of the House version argue that this means no subsidies for illegals. Opponents argue that the rate setting within the exchanges is an indirect subsidy.

(If the House version of this passes with the trigger approach, so that only some states must permit undocumented aliens to buy coverage, that will be interesting.)

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 02:38 PM

Forbidding them to buy insurance on the exchange is cutting off our nose to spite our face.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 09:45 PM

Except for the fact that they shouldn't even be here to buy it in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 10:25 PM

But they are here, Rig.

What do you suggest we do with them when they show up in an emergency room? I'm sure you wouldn't condone kicking them out in the gutter and letting them die. So what would you suggest?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 11:21 PM

If we wish to address immigration policy, then we should address immigration policy. Healthcare---though some seem to disagree--is about healthcare.

There seems to be an intellectual kink that tells us that problems we don't officially recognize don't really exist. Like Red China, for decades. Or Iran. Folks, it don't work. And never has.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 11:25 PM

Don;"...All I was able to find googling."

I said, and used 'Yahoo'

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 11:39 PM

I agree with Bobert. Already, the Senator from Louisiana, held out till a 'extra provision' was put in the bill in which that state gets a slug of money, for their vote. That's health care???

I'm NOT opposed, at all, to a health care bill, but this one sucks square eggs. Even the CBO says it is 'unsustainable'. Also the corruption from the insurance companies made this whole thing necessary. If the system was free of such corruption, it could be run right...but this administration does not have a very good rep, for 'transparency' and being 'right up front'. Neither was the last,..or the one before that, ..or before that, or before that,..or before that!
Come to think of it, we should think 'green', and recycle every congressional politician!...without the health care they voted in for themselves, which certainly doesn't look like the bill they're trying to shove at us!!!

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 11:57 PM

Actually, the CBO says that it will reduce the deficit by many billions of dollars over the next ten years.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 12:07 AM

Get updated, Carol.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 03:18 AM

That's the latest from the CBO on the Senate bill.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 07:44 AM

"But they are here, Rig. What do you suggest we do with them when they show up in an emergency room?"

             Treat them, bill them, pursue judgements, garnish wages, sick the IRS of them, and make life so miserable for them they go back where they came from.
             After all, that's what happens to American citizens who don't pay their medical bills.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 03:29 PM

GfS, I tried Yahoo and that's when I kept caming up with the virus warnings. I've always had good luck finding stuff with google. Provided it's there to find.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 03:37 PM

"Treat them, bill them, pursue judgements, garnish wages, sick the IRS of them, and make life so miserable for them they go back where they came from.
             After all, that's what happens to American citizens who don't pay their medical bills."

Very American. That's why we need to look at other health care systems. Because apparently we Americans haven't the brains—or the humanity—to try to come up with a decent system on our own.

Okay, so be it! There are lots of good examples out there. We apparently need to take a look at them. A few Americans have suggested this, but the Powers That Be (the insurance companies in particular) heap abuse on them.

The undocumented worker whine is still a red herring. It's a separate issue.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 07:16 PM

I don't imagine Americans aren't quite capable of coming up with a decent system.

However for some reason large numbers of Americans seem to have convinced themselevs that they aren't capable.

It's a quite remarkable lack of self-belief, which seems totally at odds with the way Americans generally seem to assume that they can do things better than anyone else. (And often enough they may be right.)

Where does it come from?

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 07:22 PM

It comes from the realization that America can't afford to provide healthcare for the world. That's why illegal immigration is not a separate issue.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 07:48 PM

". .  .  from the realization that America can't afford to provide healthcare for the world. . .  ."

That's just plain unrealistic, Rig. Ain't gonna happen, for one simple reason:   if you'll look at the ratings by the WHO and other such agencies (longevity, infant mortality, cure rate for various diseases and conditions, preventive medicine, etc.), compared to other countries, the quality of health care in the United States is not that great. There are countries where the quality of health care is considerably better than that in the U. S., so even if it were free here, other countries (where it is essentially free) would be a better choice.

####

And Kevin, I know that Americans are quite capable of coming up with a national health care system open to all and of the highest quality, but due to special interests, political patronage, and inhumane disregard for the general welfare in favor of egregious profits, an awful lot of butt has to be kicked and kicked hard before it will ever happen.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 08:22 PM

The belief is the result of decades of propaganda and brainwashing by the corporate elite.

The US is the ultimate fascist state, because the art of propaganda and brainwashing has been so perfected here, not only do we not know that we are being propagandized and brainwashed, but we actually think we are the most free people on earth, while in reality, we are slaves and the corporatocracy is our slave master.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 09:16 PM

I can't argue with that, Carol. Getting factual information into the hands of the public is 90% of the battle.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: heric
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 10:00 PM

I always appreciate and respect your thoughts, Mr. Firth, but as a complicated matter we can't really prove, I think the newer system will still be, like now, better than than that of any other country based on *overall* quality. Others are more egalitarian, and we're taking a step in that direction. Plus, a lot of people will feel less enslaved to their current jobs. And though I haven't noticed it factored in, a lot less of the healthcare funding will be shifted through bankruptcy, one of the most bizarre current phenomena.

(Healthcare funding, remember, is not "evaporation" of money - it still goes into circulation and the money multiplier. It's the ineffeciencies (and unfairness) of the tidepools and eddies that matters most.)

I hope that doesn't sound callous to Art Thieme and others who may still not get the benefit of full fairness.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: heric
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 10:19 PM

What I mean, for example, as much as I am (1) disgusted by the expanding bureaucracies, continued inefficiences, and ongoing "enslavement" within the (inefficient) employer-provided system, and (2) annoyed by false/over-inflated arguments such as "eliminating waste," "outcomes research" and "holding insurers accountable," if we are going to shift a lot of money from unecessary and unfair bankruptcy to the federal deficit, and unfair denials and discontinuation of coverage as well, while we simultaneously expand access to lower income groups, I approve of that and I guess I shouldn't bitch so much about my pet peeves.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 01:42 AM

Here Don:(and anyone else):

#
LA County Dept of Health Services-Community Health Plan
Important Notice for Immigrants. YOU CAN GET NEEDED MEDICAL CARE AT NO COST ... 60 at County Hospital Outpatient Clinics except Emergency Room visits ($50 for ...
www.old.dhs.lacounty.gov/clinics/medcare.htm - Cached

#
Immigrant Health Tab Disputed
Olive View-UCLA, King/Drew and Harbor UCLA medical centers, said Chief Medical ... provide emergency care for illegal immigrants, shifting the cost to the hospital. ...
www.latinamericanstudies.org/immigration/health.htm - Cached

#
Los Angeles Times Looks at County Report on Cost of Health ...
... emergency and follow-up inpatient services at County-USC, Olive View-UCLA, King/Drew ... hospital system and laws mandating treatment for undocumented immigrants, ...
maillists.uci.edu/mailman/.../calaaem/2003-May/000147.html - Cached

#
kaisernetwork.org
... and follow-up health care for undocumented immigrants. The ... emergency and follow-up inpatient services at County-USC, Olive View-UCLA, King/Drew ...
kaisernetwork.org/daily_reports/...?DR_ID=17819&dr_cat=3 - Cached

#
Grim Health Scenario for Poor Seen With Cuts - Medicine ...
Only Antelope Valley Hospital agreed to accept new Medi-Cal patients--those low ... Even those who made it to Olive View would face interminable waits because of ...
articles.latimes.com/1995-07-03/local/... - 54k - Cached

#
County-USC 'Annex' Is Put on Hold - Los Angeles Times
... hospital has ... be an HMO for illegal immigrants without bankrupting the entire county, ... add beds at Harbor-UCLA, Olive View-UCLA and Martin Luther King/Drew ...
articles.latimes.com/2003/apr/24/local/me-usc24 - 54k - Cached

#
Antelope Valley Officials Criticize Decision To Proceed with ...
... Hospital Readmissions ... a move that will allow Olive View-UCLA Medical Center, Harbor-UCLA ... Debate Roiled by Concerns Over Coverage for Undocumented Immigrants ...
californiahealthline.org/articles/2003/2/6/... - Cached

A County Dept of Health Services-Community Health Plan
Hospital Inpatient Care. Eye Examinations and Prescription Glasses ... Children who are U.S. citizens, nationals or eligible qualified immigrants ...
www.old.dhs.lacounty.gov/chp/hfp.htm - Cached


Since I first posted the original post with the links, its changed a lot because of some news story, which I included.But, nonetheless, I found these, opened them, and no viruses.


Here's some more:

From the L. A. Times

1. 40% of all workers in   L. A. County ( L. A. County has 10.2 million people)are working for cash and not paying taxes. This is because they are predominantly illegal immigrants working without a green card.

2. 95% of warrants for murder in Los Angeles are for illegal aliens.

3. 75% of people on the most wanted list in Los Angeles are illegal aliens.

4. Over 2/3 of all births in Los Angeles County are to illegal alien Mexicans on Medi-Cal, whose births were paid for by taxpayers.

5. Nearly 35% of all inmates in California detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally.

6. Over 300,000 illegal aliens in Los Angeles County   are living in garages.

7. The FBI reports half of all gang members in Los Angeles are most likely illegal aliens from south of the border.

8 Nearly 60% of all occupants of HUD properties are illegal.

9. 21 radio stations in L. A. are Spanish speaking.

10... In L. A. County 5.1 million people speak English, 3.9 million speak Spanish.

(There are 10.2 million people in L. A. County . )

(All 10 of the above facts were published in the Los Angeles Times)

Less than 2% of illegal aliens are picking our crops, but 29% are on welfare. Over 70% of the United States ' annual population growth(and over 90% of California ,   Florida , and New York ) results from immigration. 29% of inmates in federal prisons are illegal aliens .

We are fools for letting this continue.

This is only one State.................

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: heric
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 01:55 AM

Oh, please, come on.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 01:58 AM

Thank you Heric, my mistake.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: heric
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 02:25 AM

You've got to watch out for those tea partier e-mails at least as much as the MoveOn etc stuff.

And two other things about that trillion or so over ten years and the money multiplier: Keep in mind that Medicare expenditures this year are about $484 billion. A trillion or so over ten years has a stimulus effect that is for more dispersed and sustained than a trillion or so to investment bankers and their friends over a year or two.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 07:36 AM

So who do you believe, the newspaper or the blog? The truth it hard to get at sometimes, but Sanity's article captures the trend if not the actual numbers.
                   That's why California is a basket case now, and the rest of the country will follow if illegals are not prevented from accessing public programs.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: heric
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 11:22 AM

You try as hard as you can to resist the flaw we all have hard-wired into our brains to be receptive to data that fits or affirms preconceptions, and to dismiss or diminish contrary data. This is absolutely one of the biggest problems in the larger health care debate, and the reason why, similarly, any and all anecdotes should be resisted with all our mental might. That's hard to see and nearly impossible to practice.

(Paradoxically, even though those outcomes researchers start from the high position, it's their absence from the front lines that makes them prone to erroneous conclusions.)

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 11:41 AM

My sister still lives out in L.A. To say the least things are VERY bad out there, and I'm not at all sure the figures are that far off, at all.
I'm not against immigrants, or Mexicans. Jeez, we used to go down there almost every weekend, but what we have seen in recent years, is astounding! When our earlier immigrants came to America, they fled Europe in hopes of finding a place where there was freedom from religious oppression, where people could worship God, in they ways they chose, and freedom of speech, and assembly; to be able to find a place, where they could follow and pursue their dreams, and build a future. They had very little to work with, but their drive to build a place where a tyrannical government, of kings and religious leaders who dominated their lives, and that of their families, oppressed them to the point,to seek and build a better lives for themselves, and their families. So they built this nation where the principle goal was to be FREE, to pursue those ideals, and they fought, and died for that freedom. They didn't immigrate over here, for free handouts, welfare, medicare, food stamps, and state social programs! Matter of fact, those social programs came into being later, as a 'safety net', to provide for those fellow countrymen, and their families, when they met hard times. It was never meant to be a way of life, or an enticement for votes, to keep the political hacks in power! My, how things have changed!

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: heric
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 11:45 AM

and, more specifically: Trends lead to projections and projections are usually crap. If there is a trend towards higher relative cash transactions in LA, you can't allow yourself to reasonably believe it will hit 40% of the economy.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 01:24 PM

Heric, I wasn't sure if your post was in response to mine or not, but being as you broached the subject, when California itself was the world's seventh largest economy, and a lot of employers out there hire illegals, for cheaper wages, especially in the construction trades, and hospitality industry, and those cash wages are not being recycled into our economy, but being sent back to Mexico, via Western Union, along with not being taxed, and when those same people are burdening our social programs, it certainly does hit the economy. Whether its 40% or 50%, or 25%, it has become a drain and burden for those honest citizens who simply wish to provide for their families! It effectively removes monies from the base, from which supports the livelihoods, that people rely on. Economy IS the movement of money. When money circulates slow, or their is less cash available, the economy is slow. Removing money from the base, so their is less of it circulating, taking up those jobs that we've been told, 'Americans don't want'(by the way, ask anyone who can't find a job now, if that's even true), to further a political agenda, is that same political agenda working AGAINST THEIR CONSTITUENTS who they were supposed to 'represent'...which of course, is another folly, when the populace is by in large, against being taxed higher, out of work, nor denied medical services because it is unaffordable. That being said, health care reform should address the ills that plague the way this present system is being abused, and wrought with fraud, overcharged, frivolous lawsuits, and corrupt insurance practices. Simply putting the insurance companies out of commission, is not the only solution. This bill, that is up before the Senate now, is not an answer, just a bigger problem, both on the economy, and our quality of health care. Yes, absolutely something NEEDS to be done, but this very unpopular, bill is not it. The way I hear it, is that those 'representatives' who are backing it, will be out of office next elections...so they say...but who knows, that's what the 'other side' says, but all the polls are indicating that the majority of people in this country are opposed to it, but that seems to be falling on deaf ears...why?...Because of corruption????...or ideological mental illnesses?...or bribery for a vote to support??...Time will tell, but let's hope before its not before its too late!

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 01:50 PM

Sad obsession...

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 01:59 PM

When our earlier immigrants came to America, they fled Europe

???????


When was there a time in this country (or even landmass, for that matter), when the people who immigrated here only came from Europe?

This statement really does show a certain mindset.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 02:40 PM

CarolC: "When was there a time in this country (or even landmass, for that matter), when the people who immigrated here only came from Europe?"

From anywhere. You don't see a lot of folks swimming to Cuba, do you? Africa?. China? defecting in droves to Russia?? Sneaking INTO Mexico?? Fleeing to Venezuela for asylum? Maybe nice places to visit, but....

McGrath:"Sad obsession..."

What? History??..or Facts????

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 02:50 PM

So our European ancestors came here for all sorts of high-minded, idealistic reasons. But Mexicans and Central Americans et al, come here only because of the "freebies?"

What "freebies?"

I dunno. I tend to think they come here to try to make a better life for themselves, not unlike our European forebears.

[Not to forget Carol's valid point that Europeans were not the only immigrants early on.]

Why is it that when I read things like what GfS and Rig keep posting, I get visions of signs like "Whites Only" and "No Irish Need Apply?"

Reality check:   Had it not been for folks like Chinese and Irish immigrants (and others), the railroad system that glued commerce together in this country early on would have taken a lot longer to build. Without migrant farm workers (many of whom are undocumented workers from south of the border), food would be one helluva lot more expensive.

And back in the early 1970s, when Boeing laid off vast amounts of their work force and unemployment in Seattle reached about 15% (and the famous roadside billboard appeared that said, "Will the last person to leave town please turn off the lights?"), I don't recall seeing any of the newly unemployed and rather desperate folks even consider dashing over to eastern Washington to harvest apples and asparagus, even though the jobs were available. Nor do I see any of the current unemployed and/or homeless.

Work in the dust and hot sun from dawn to dusk and get paid for piece work—by the bushel basket? Apples require running up and down a ladder all day. Asparagus (and a lot of other crops) require bending over or squatting all day.

Even in people who are really on their beam's end, I don't detect much enthusiasm for that sort of work.

Don Firth

P. S. Besides, I don't think the primary reason that illegal immigrants come to this country is because of our wonderful health care system.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 03:56 PM

I suppose if all the immigrants went home there'd just be Native Americans, including most "Hispanics", and African Americans.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 04:28 PM

Well I think you'd have to lose the Dene, Apaches, Navajos, and certainly the Aleuts and Inuit, i.e any of the non-Clovis.