BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what?

Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what?
From: Den
Date: 30 Oct 09 - 03:25 PM

Just for the record, the GuestDen posting above is not to be confused with my good self and I couldn't really give enough of a shit about Tommy Teirnan to acknowledge him either way. Thanks again to the member who drew my attention to this and for having the sense to know that I never be responsible for spouting such utter nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Oct 09 - 06:25 PM

well it makes a change from Kerryman jokes,the poOr old KERRYMAN,the butt of the rest of IRELAND all these years.I bet that was a kerryman that circ ulated those jokes about the limerick folks,hey I like the ESSEX GIRL JOKES.

Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 14 Oct 09 - 03:05 PM

Yes Declan, but would similar jokes be considered appropriate if they were about blacks, jews, foreigners or whatever?

Call it an exercise in determining where to draw a line, if at all possible. I am not easily offended by jokes, as long as they aren't made with malicious intend (and to go back to the subject of the thread, I don't think Tommie Tiernan would have had a malicious, racist, intention).

Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 14 Oct 09 - 02:30 PM

Haven't heard an Essex girl joke for a while. Must confess I find some of these actually pretty funny. The cruder the better...
Maybe there's something in being ridiculed while not actually identifying with it, that makes the joke seem much funnier than it actually is - or indeed would be if directed elsewhere?

1.What is the difference between a walrus and an Essex girl? One is wet, has a moustache and smells of fish - the other is a walrus!
2.What's the difference between an Essex man & an Essex girl? The Essex girl has a higher sperm count!
3.What does an Essex girl say after having sex? What team do you guys play for?
4.What's the difference between Gorbachev and an Essex girl? Gorby knows the names of the eight people that f***ed him!
5.What do Essex girls use for protection during sex? Bus shelters.
6.How does an Essex girl turn the light out after sex? She shuts the Cortina's door.
7.How do you make an Essex girl's eyes sparkle? Shine a torch into her ear.
8.How can you tell if an Essex girl is having a bad day? Her tampon is behind her ear and she can't find her pencil.
9.Why does an Essex girl wear knickers? To keep her ankles warm.
10.What's the difference between an Essex girl and an ironing board? Occasionally you have trouble getting the legs apart on an ironing board.
11. Whats the difference between an Essex girl and the titanic? You know how many men went down on the titanic.
12.What is the difference between a supermarket trolley and an Essex girl? A supermarket trolley has a mind of its own.
13.Why is an Essex girl like an old washing machine? They both drip when f***ed.
14.Why do Essex girls use tampons with long strings? So the crabs can go bungy jumping
15.How do you know when an Essex girl has had an orgasm? She drops her bag of chips.
16.What did an Essex girl and President Gorbachev have in common? They both got f***ed by eight men while on holiday.
17.How many Essex girls does it take to make a chocolate chip cookie? Five, one to stir the mixture and four to peel the smarties.
18.What's the similarity between an Essex girl and a dog's turd? The older they get, the easier they are to pick up!
19.What's the difference between an Essex girl and a washing machine? You can dump your load in a washing machine without it following you around whining for a week.
20.Why are Essex girls only allowed 30-minute lunch breaks? It takes too long to retrain them if they take an hour.
21.What's the similarity between Essex girls and carpenters? They both have saws in their boxes
22.What did the Essex girl say after the doctor told her she was pregnant? Is it mine?
23.Why was the Essex girl so pleased to complete a jigsaw puzzle in 18 months? Because it said on the box "From 2 to 5 years".
24.How do you make an Essex girl laugh on Saturday? Tell her a joke on a Wednesday.
25.What's the difference between an Essex girl and a fridge? A fridge doesn't fart when you take your meat out.
26.When does an Essex girl drool? When she's full.
27.How do you tell when an Essex girl is having her period? She's only wearing one Sock.
28.What does the label in an Essex girl's knickers say? NEXT!
29.What's the similarity between Robert Maxwell and Essex girls? They both go down in Tenerife.
30.Why do Essex girls wear green lipstick? Red means stop.
31.Why is it good to have an Essex girl passenger? You can park in the handicapped spaces.
32.Why do Essex girls wear so much hair spray? So they can catch some of the things going straight over their heads.
33.Why do Essex girls wear hoop earrings? So they'll have someplace to rest their ankles.
34.If an Essex girl and a Surrey girl jump out of an airplane at the same time, which one would hit the ground first? The surrey girl, the Essex girl would have to stop to ask directions.
35.What is the difference between Bigfoot and an intelligent Essex girl? There have actually been sightings of Bigfoot.
36.What does it mean if you see an Essex girl with square boobs? She forgot to take the Kleenex out of the box.
37.Why do Essex girls like tilt steering wheels? More head room.
38.What do you call 6 Essex girls in a row? A wind tunnel.
39.What do you call a Surrey girl between 2 Essex girls? An Interpreter.
40.What's the first thing an Essex girl does in the morning? Goes home.
41.What's the mating call of an Essex girl? Gosh, I'm so drunk.
42.What's the mating call of a Surrey girl? Are all the Essex girls gone?
43.What do Essex girls and computers have in common? You don't know what you are missing until they go down on you.
44.What is the difference between an Essex girl and a cream egg? It costs 25p to lick out a cream egg.
45.Why is an Essex girl like a beer bottle? They're both empty from the neck up.
46.What do you call an Essex girl with half a brain? Gifted.
47.Why do Essex girls have to work 7 days a week? So you don't have to retrain them on Monday.
48.What do you say to an Essex girl who wont give in? Have another drink.
49.What's an Essex girls favourite wine? I want to go to Lakeside
50.What do you call an Essex girl with a pound coin on the top of her head? All you can eat, under a quid.
51.Why do Essex girls wash their hair in the sink? That's where you wash vegetables.
52.How do you get an Essex girl to marry you? Tell her she's pregnant.
53.Why did the Essex girl climb over the glass wall? To see what was on the other side.
54.What do you see when you peer into an Essex girls eyes? The back of her head.
55.What's the difference between an Essex girl and a Porsche? You don't lend the Porsche out to your friends.
56.What do you do if an Essex girl throws a grenade at you? Catch it, pull out the pin and throw it back.
57.Why did the Essex girl stop using the pill? It kept falling out.
58.Why don't Essex girls use vibrators? They chip their teeth.
59.Why do Essex girls have trouble reaching orgasm? Who cares?
60.What's the difference between an Essex girl and a limousine? Not everyone has been in a limousine.
61.How does an Essex girl interpret 6.9? 69 interrupted by a period.
62.How do you brainwash an Essex girl? Give her a douche and shake her upside-down.
63.What do you call 15 Essex girls in a ring? A dope ring.
64.Why did the Essex girl go halfway to Norway then turn round & come home? It took her that long to figure out a 14 inch Viking was a TV set.
65.What's the difference between an Essex girl and a terrorist? You can negotiate with a terrorist.
66.What is the worst thing about having sex with an Essex girl? The bucket seats.
67.What do Essex girls do for foreplay? Remove their underwear.
68.What did the Essex girl name her pet zebra? Spot.
69.Why did the Essex girl drown? Someone stuck a scratch & sniff at the bottom of the pool.
70.What do you call a fly buzzing around an Essex girl's head? A space invader.
71.Why did the Essex girl have a bruised navel? Her boyfriend's from Essex too.
72.Why did God create Essex girls? Because sheep can't fetch beer from the fridge.
73.How do you amuse an Essex girl for hours? Write 'Please turn over' on both sides of a piece of paper.
74.How can you tell if an Essex girl has been in your fridge? By the lipstick on your cucumbers.
75.How do you know which computer an Essex girl was using? By the tippex on the screen.
76.What did the Essex girl customer say to the buxom waitress (reading her nametag)? "'Debbie'.... That
,s cute, what did you name the other one?".
77.Why is an Essex girl like a doorknob? Because everybody gets a turn.
78.Why is an Essex girl like railway tracks? Because she's been laid all over the country.
79.What's the difference between an Essex girl and a phone booth? You need 10p to use the phone.
80.How does an Essex girl commit suicide? She gathers all her clothes into a pile, and jumps off.
81.How do Essex girl brain cells die? Alone.
82.Why didn't the Essex girl want a window seat on the plane? She'd just blow dried her hair and didn't want it blown around too much.
83.Why do Essex girl prefer cars with sunroofs? More leg room.
84.Why do Essex girls have orgasms? So they know when to stop having sex.
85.What did the Essex girl's mum say to her before her date? "If you're
not in bed by 12, come home".
86.Why don't Essex girls breast-feed their babies? Because it's too painful to boil the nipples.
87.Why are Essex girls like Cornflakes? Because they're simple, easy and taste good.
88.Where do Essex girls go to meet their relatives? The vegetable patch.
89.Why was the Essex girl disappointed when she received her driver's license? Because she got an F in sex.
90.How did the Essex girl break her leg raking leaves? She fell out of the tree.
91.What do you call an Essex girl behind a steering wheel? An air bag.
92.Why don't Essex girls have elevator jobs? They can't remember the route.
93.How do you change an Essex girl's mind? Blow in her ear.
94.What can strike an Essex girl without her even knowing it? A thought.
95.What do you call a basement full of Essex girls? A whine cellar.
96.What do you call an Essex girl skeleton in the closet? Last years hide-and-seek champ.
97.What do you call an Essex girl with 2 brain cells? Pregnant.
98.What do you call an Essex girl between 2 Surrey girls? A mental block.
99.How do you confuse an Essex girl? You don't, they're born that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what?
From: Declan
Date: 14 Oct 09 - 02:09 PM

By the way the gaelic at the end of the message is a direct translation 9of the disclaimer that appears above it, which is added by the Health Service Executive, the Irish equivalent of the NHS in the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what?
From: Declan
Date: 14 Oct 09 - 02:07 PM

Maybe I'm applying double standards here but I don't think there's much similarity between the Tommy Tiernan material and the Limerick 'Jokes'. The latter I would regard as mild slagging. I doubt if many people from Limerick would find them offensive, in fact my first inclination is to send the list to a friend of mine who comes from Limerick because he'd probably get a giggle out of them.

I don't think I'd be inclined to send the TT youtube video to any Jewish friends and expect he same reation.

I have been the butt of many Irish jokes over the years and have rarely taken offense, except on one or two occasions when I thought the 'joker' was using the jokes as a way at having a go at me, rather than sharing in a laugh. I think I've quoted Kieran Halpin's lyrics on a similar thread before - "I've suffered the jibe and the jester, and laughed at their jokr through it all".

Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 14 Oct 09 - 02:00 PM

Yes they're jokes by one group/majority making fun of another group/minority in order to put them down and feel superior.

It's worth considering, in the context of this thread, if these are more acceptable when they make fun of Limerick people or Limerick in general and would be worse if they concerned themselves with Jewish people. Given the circulation of this e-mail it would appear they're considered innocent enough, or a guilty pleasure at best.

Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 14 Oct 09 - 01:35 PM

Actually on second thoughts, bar the header of your email, those aren't actually 'Irish jokes'. They're 'Limerick man' jokes.
Looks like they're the Irish equivalent of English 'Essex Girl' jokes to me (which I've been subject to myself more than once in past...)

Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what?
From: Lox
Date: 14 Oct 09 - 01:31 PM

You're right - those jokes are sh**.

But even worse, they're really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really old and have beeen used to take the piss out of every group viewed by other groups as thick.

Whoever compiled this list and stuck in the word "limerick" wasn't really very original, clever or funny.

Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 14 Oct 09 - 01:25 PM

Does the Gaelic at the bottom imply that these are 'Irish jokes', written by and for Irish people?

My own Irish Mother always defended Irish jokes as (so she said) Irish people themselves enjoyed them and liked to tell them themselves amongst themselves - I know she certainly found them a hoot anyway. And I've heard older uncles deliver them pretty well too. She said the Irish thoroughly reject being cast as 'victims' of racism, by well meaning English people. It was a case of "Get off my feckin' side!".

I don't know how representative of broader current attitudes amongst Irish people towards Irish jokes, that opinion would be of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 14 Oct 09 - 11:52 AM

That should have been 'forwarded'

Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 14 Oct 09 - 11:51 AM

Just to step away from Tommy Tiernan, an e-mail with the subject line 'a little Irish Racism' fell in my inbox just now. Worse, the same or equally bad taste as the holocast jokes? Also note which official bodies the e-mail circulated before being forward.

I don't like getting this sort of uninvited 'funny' stuff by the way.



)
)
) >
) > Q. If you see a Limerick Man on a bicycle, why should you never
) swerve
) > to hit him?
) > A: It might be your bicycle
) >
) >
) > Q: Why does the River Shannon run through Limerick?
) > A: Because if it walked it would be mugged
) >
) >
) > Q: What do you call a Limerick Man in a three-bed semi?
) > ANS: A Burglar
) >
) > Q: What do you call a Limerick man in a tie?
) > A. The accused
) >
) > Q: Why wasn't Jesus born in Limerick?
) > A: Because God couldn't find three wise men and a virgin
) >
) > Q: What is the difference between a Limerick Man and a coconut?
) > A: One's thick and hairy, and the other's a coconut
) >
) > Q: What do you say to a Limerick Man in a uniform?
) > A: Big Mac and fries please
) >
) > Q: What's the first question at a Limerick pub quiz night? (my
) > Favoutite)
) > A: What you looking at?
) >
) > Q: What do you call a Limerick Woman in a White Shellsuit
) > A: The Bride
) >
) > Q: How do you know Jesus wasn't born in Limerick?
) > A: He fell 3 times and never claimed once
) >
) >
) >
) >
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Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what?
From: Smokey.
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 08:00 PM

Oops.. only 'is' was meant to be bold.. I wasn't shouting, honest.

Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what?
From: Smokey.
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 07:58 PM

I'm not familiar with Carr, so I can't comment on him, but Tiernan is a satirist, and as far as I can see fulfills the job description. Others say not, but it's obviously just a matter of opinion. He doesn't tell racist jokes; in fact he doesn't seem to tell jokes at all, from what I've seen of him. I see no trace of 'bullying' either in his manner or his material. He certainly seems to rattle some people's cages, but isn't that partly what satire is meant to do? With his 'Jewish rant', he has drawn attention to an horrific episode in history of which we should collectively be ashamed, and which should never be forgotten, lest human nature should tilt that way again. I think that's a clever and positive thing to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what?
From: Lox
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 06:21 PM

Its terrible how Teirnan bullies the Irish.

Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 03:52 PM

Just disagreeing with a societal tendency (that's far wider than the two of you) to accept people like Teirnan and Carr and so on as "satirists" rather than bullies who go for easy targets-

----

Exactly my thoughts. I am a comedian/artist/smarter than you so I have these exemptions. I am only doing this to point out how stupid and racist/sexist/ignorant other people are and if you will call me on this it sort of proves you are too. I am not done with the Borat thing either. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what?
From: Smokey.
Date: 12 Oct 09 - 07:33 PM

Smokey's comments need to be understood in the context of the thread

My comments need to be understood within the context of my post, and my post needs to be understood within the context of the thread.

If, indeed, anyone can actually be arsed..

Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what?
From: Smokey.
Date: 12 Oct 09 - 07:06 PM

Have I misunderstood you, Smokey? Have you essentially said that intolerance towards racism (and vehemently disagreeing with the views of those who set themselves up as apologists for racist "comedians") is the same impulse that leads to racist mass murder on an unprecedented scale?

No Spleen, I have not said that. As Lox rightly points out, that is a logical fallacy. Disagree with me by all means; I take no offence at that, but don't put words in my mouth. "Fear and subsequent intolerance" is what I said. Of "views contrary to one's own" - and that is precisely what I meant.

My post was an attempt to explain my views, rather than just shout them repeatedly. My opinion is no more important than anyone else's, but I think that for any constructive or meaningful discussion to take place we have a duty to at least try to do that, preferably calmly and without jumping to unreasonable conclusions about one another.

Thanks again, Lox. Any sign of the mother-ship yet?

Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 12 Oct 09 - 05:49 PM

Erm, Lox, you don't need to defend Smokey, because I'm not attacking him. Haven't attacked you or anyone else either - it's not personal. Just disagreeing with a societal tendency (that's far wider than the two of you) to accept people like Teirnan and Carr and so on as "satirists" rather than bullies who go for easy targets. At least Chris Morris focused his wit on powerful groups in society such as the media and opinion makers and so on. Comics like TT turn their fire on minority groups and do it from the relatively secure position of being part of the of the majority. In fact, this issue is far wider than TT and I probably have more contempt for some of the smug, self-satisfied English comedians that turn up on every friggin' panel show going...

So no offence intended to either of you, ok? I'm disagreeing with your perspective rather than sayin' you're part of the problem... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what?
From: Lox
Date: 12 Oct 09 - 05:09 PM

"and therefore Smokey's comments need to be understood in the context of the thread."

Excatly, and if you've been paying attention you'll notice that the context was not restricted to one line of debate.

Smokey was very clearly responding to the kneejerk reaction that meant that I was lumped in with apologists for racist humour because i disagreed that TT was a racist.

"but what I can't understand is the lengths you'll go to to defend this man."

I've actually been speding far too much time on this thread defending myself.



I'm now I sem to be geting sucked into defending Smokey.

The subject is Tommy Tiernan.

"TT really doesn't need or deserve your support"

I never set out to give it. I am interested in discussing him and would like to be able to do so freely and intelligently.

"Satire is stuff like Brass Eye."

I agree 100%

And guess how much work Chris Morris gets now?

NONE!

That's how much.

His satirization of public paranoia/fascination on the subject of Paedophiles earned him the hatred of everyone who didn't understand what he was satirizing.

He was accused of being tasteless and offensive and not considering the feelings of victims of sexual abuse and using other peoples misery to make cheap comedy etc etc etc ...

And he is now a TV outcast.

I thought that he was Brilliant, but you make up your own mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Oct 09 - 05:05 PM

"and therefore Smokey's comments need to be understood in the context of the thread."

Excatly, and if you've been paying attention you'll notice that the context was not restricted to one line of debate.

Smokey was very clearly responding to the kneejerk reaction that meant that I was lumped in with apologists for racist humour because i disagreed that TT was a racist.

"but what I can't understand is the lengths you'll go to to defend this man."

I've actually been speding far too much time on this thread defending myself.



I'm now I sem to be geting sucked into defending Smokey.

The subject is Tommy Tiernan.

"TT really doesn't need or deserve your support"

I never set out to give it. I am interested in discussing him and would like to be able to do so freely and intelligently.

"Satire is stuff like Brass Eye."

I agree 100%

And guess how much work Chris Morris gets now?

NONE!

That's how much.

His satirization of public paranoia/fascination on the subject of Paedophiles earned him the hatred of everyone who didn't understand what he was satirizing.

He was accused of being tasteless and offensive and not considering the feelings of victims of sexual abuse and using other peoples misery to make cheap comedy etc etc etc ...

And he is now a TV outcast.

I thought that he was Brilliant, but you make up your own mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what?
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Oct 09 - 04:05 PM

yes ,Jim,Ihave never said I disagreed with you,Isaid I found one or two of his other clips amusing,like the english skit,and the cork accent[although he neds to work a bit harder on that one].
if he was much use as a comedian he would be satirising Biffo our hapless taoiseach.

Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 12 Oct 09 - 02:26 PM

Context, Lox. As you've said yourself, its all about context and the context of this discussion is whether TT is i) racist; ii) a satirist, and possibly iii) a comedian... and therefore Smokey's comments need to be understood in the context of the thread. Now I don't think you or Smokey or most of the folks on this thread are racists - your postings on plenty of threads demonstrate you're not - but what I can't understand is the lengths you'll go to to defend this man. TT really doesn't need or deserve your support. My thoughts at best he's a tasteless idiot who doesn't give a shit who he offends in the noble pursuit of bare-knuckle comedy. At worst he has a seriously dodgy agenda. Personally I think a lot of these so-called clever, "boundary pushing" comics we are inundated with are simply Bernard Manning with a better education and an overdeveloped sense of entitlement. What their doing isn't satire, it's just bullying dressed up as humour.

Satire is stuff like Brass Eye. It's far cleverer than this dreary old attention seeking stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 12 Oct 09 - 01:19 PM

Jim,

I appreciate your retraction and I unreservedly and humbly accept your apology.

Furthermore, I share your instinctive repulson of terms like "do gooder" and "liberal fascist", both being terms that have been applied to me.

Thanks for taking the time to reconsider your position.



Spleen.


"Have you essentially said that intolerance towards racism (and vehemently disagreeing with the views of those who set themselves up as apologists for racist "comedians") is the same impulse that leads to racist mass murder on an unprecedented scale?"


This line of argument only works if you take the liberty of substituting "racism" for "views contrary to one's own".

In doing this you create a straw man and as such are arguing with a fignmet of your own imagnation and saying nothing about smokeys point.

If smokey had had a problem with people being intolerant of Racism he would have said so.

Instead he said that lashing out at viewpoints contrary to ones own is an approach that he finds comparable to Nazi attitudes.

For example, If Jim will forgive me for torturing a dead horse, My view on TT is different to Jims, but as has been well and truly established by now (I hope) it does not follow that my view is racist or that I am an apologist for a racist comedian.

To make a snap judgement about another persons viewpoint because they disagree with you and to condemn them without hearing what they have to say equally is not interchangeable with "intolerance to racism".

To stand up to racism you need first to be able to identify it.

Sometimes this is easy.

Sometimes it isn't so clear.

I think that in my case it was obvious that my posts contain none.

So lashing out at my posts is not the same as being intolerant to racism.

In the case of TT there is clearly debate about whether he is racist or not.

I believe not, as I believe that he was illustrating a seperate point and not expressing a racist view.

I think he is anti racist and his words were meant in a satirical vein.

The context of the debate around him is therefore not about whether to be tolerant or intolerant of him, but whether or not he s a racist comedian.

So to start suggesting that Somkey thinks we should tolerate racists is misleading, defamatory and has no bearing on anything he has posted so far.

Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what?
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 12 Oct 09 - 12:32 PM

"The unreasonable lashing out at views contrary to one's own demonstrated in this thread is borne of the same fear and subsequent intolerance that brought about such events as the holocaust"

Have I misunderstood you, Smokey? Have you essentially said that intolerance towards racism (and vehemently disagreeing with the views of those who set themselves up as apologists for racist "comedians") is the same impulse that leads to racist mass murder on an unprecedented scale?

Hmmm...

Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Oct 09 - 11:53 AM

Cap'n,
In different circumstances racist humour would be far less of a problem than it is today.
I served my apprenticeship on the Liverpool docks where there was a great deal of inter-racial banter between all the nationalities, with little offence taken (or, I believe intended).
Thanks to scum like the National Front and their malignant offspring, the BNP, we live in a different world today.
Thirty years ago in Ireland, foreigners were treated to little more than polite curiousity and - here in The West (in my experience) given the usual local welcome. That is no longer the case.
A couple of Decembers ago a Traveller family who were made homeless by a caravan fire were driven out of temporary council accommodation into the worst possible winter weather by chanting locals - the youngest of the family celebrated her 1st birthday sleeping in the back of a clapped out car.
Ex-loyalist terrorists in the North have now concentrated their efforts on driving out immigrant families in Derry and Belfast.
You want horror stories - the press is full of them.
One of the arguments put forward in the recent referendumm was that if Ireland accepted the Lisbon Treaty we would be over-run by immigrant Turks (this from a nation which wouldn't have survived the last couple of centuries without the recourse of emigration).
Different world - in which, I believe, there is no room for tolerance of Tommy Tiernan and his mini-Nuremberg rallies.
Without wishing to open old arguments, I seem to remember some time ago, your being racially offended by what many of us believed to be an innocent joke - in that contex; put yourself in the place of the families of holocaust survivers witnessing Tiernen's 'little pearls of wisdom'.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what?
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Oct 09 - 11:16 AM

jim on the whole I agree, but I do find parts of his humour a little funny,his sketch on the English,and his comment they conquered most of the world,but dont want the foreigners following the English back to England,that is amusing,after all a lot[i guess about 50 per cent] of English people are insular and xenophobic.
when I was at school we had a geography teacher who used to get up in front of the class,and say now Miles do you know where the Wogs live,they live here [pointing to a map of asia,and do you know what a wog is,wogs Miles are wily oriental gentlemen.now thats what I call seriously racist.
I havent bothered to watch the sketch about jews it sounds offensive to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Oct 09 - 09:59 AM

"I have to add a point of information to this thread."
Sorry Lox - I totally disagree – no new information here, unless you believe the subject to be the hurt feelings of the participants rather than the racist outpourings of a stand-up comedian.
However, I do owe you an apology - I did mistake the purpose of your "whingeing liberal" comment and failed to see it in its intended context. I do tend to knee-jerk at phrases like 'bleeding-hearted liberal', 'do-gooder', et al, (not to mention 'finger-in-ear' and 'folk police'), all of which abound on these threads. I accept fully that it was not intended seriously here, - my apologies.
I would point out that my initial reaction was to your "You come across like a rabble rouser trying to whip up an angry mob" - I even borrowed your own phrasing for my response. I am sure I will receive a box of chocolates and a bunch of red roses in full recompense, by return post (a feeble attempt at humour, I grant you, but mine own!).
Meanwhile – back at the ranch!
I fully take on board my friend Peter Laban's posting, obviously based on bitter family experience, but respectfully, I disagree. Nowhere has a case been made for Tiernan being anything other than a stand-up comedian who bases his act on offending people (blacks, Catholics, Travellers... and here, Jews). The question is not whether his 'jokes' were racist - they speak for themselves - but whether racism, the holocaust, anti-Semitism….., is an acceptable subject for humour – I firmly believe IT IS NOT – satire maybe, humour certainly not. If Tiernan is to be considered a satirist, then so does Jim Davidson with his 'Chalkie White' stories and Bernard Manning's 'Paki' jokes have a claim on the title (both have described themselves as such at one time or another, (though Davidson's "I'm not prejudiced – I wish they'd ALL fuck off back to where they came from", rather blew his cover). For me, there is little difference between them all – apart from Tiernan's accent.
The questions I asked earlier remain unanswered. Tiernan bases his whole approach to giving offence – that's what he does for a living. So why did he apologise and why was his act withdrawn from the Canadian tour? He certainly has given offence here, therefore he achieved what he set out to do HE WAS A ROARING SUCCESS – WHAT HAS HE GOT TO APOLOGISE FOR AND WHY HAS HE NOT BEEN ALLOWED TO BE THE SAME SUCCESS IN CANADA?
Even if we stretch our credulity and allow that he is a 'satirist' rather than a stand-up comedian; the fact that he has made a total hames of his satire makes what he has to say every bit as racist as I believe Manning and Davidson to be.
While I agree totally that satire is a powerful weapon, I also think that if it is badly done it isn't just bad satire; rather it backfires on itself and becomes the opposite of what is intended – I think it was Johnny Speight, the creator of Alf Garnett who said so publicly. When ''Til Death Do Us Part' was first broadcast Garnett was a powerful caricature of a racist bigot. Eventually it ran out of steam and became repetitive and trite – the result – Garnett became the darling of the racist right, 'a lovable old reprobate who only says what the rest of us are thinking'.
All this aside; it still remains to be shown that Tiernan is anything but a stand-up comedian, and in my opinion, a pretty poor one. His 'humour' is infantile in the extreme (extreme being the operative word); equivalent to a schoolboy running into a shop in Brixton, shouting out "n....r" and running out again – immature, to say the least.
To my mind racism is not a subject for cheap humour – not so cheap, when you thing about it – within my lifetime the bill came to over well over 6,000,000.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what?
From: Smokey.
Date: 11 Oct 09 - 10:03 PM

As for closet racism being a "nonsensical insult" - go and thumb your way through similar threads and see how many posting begin "I'm not a racist but....." - they are as real as Tiernan's anti- Semitism as far as I'm concerned.

Quod erat demonstrandum, perhaps?


I'm not a racist, but Tommy Tiernan makes me laugh. Live with it - I have to.

Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what?
From: Smokey.
Date: 11 Oct 09 - 08:03 PM

One of the purposes of comedy is to draw attention to the flaws in humanity, and the holocaust is one of the most poignant examples we have. Throughout history our species has done terrible things to itself, and somehow we have to live with that. Some may believe that the 'good' that we do/have done makes up for all that, but I don't. There are some episodes and events that make me ashamed to be a member of the human race. I regard that as an integral part of life. We can separate and label to make it more comfortable by saying the holocaust was something Nazis did to Jews, for bad reasons which we don't agree with, but what actually happened was that humans did it to humans. That was us - the human race - we did it, and we all have to live with it. We have to rise above such things for the sake of our own sanity and future development, and I think comedy in all its forms is a vital tool in doing so, and in remembering that we are far from perfect. I don't think it can ever diminish the horror of what actually happened. I doubt though that we will ever reach a stage of development at which we all find the same things amusing, or even in the same way. I see that diversity (and all human diversity) as one of the more positive qualities of humanity - something to be celebrated and educated by. The unreasonable lashing out at views contrary to one's own demonstrated in this thread is borne of the same fear and subsequent intolerance that brought about such events as the holocaust. It's an aspect of human nature we should be monitoring very carefully, on a personal as well as a sociological level. I think comedy helps us to do that, and should be allowed to continue to do so unimpeded. Participation is voluntary.

Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what?
From: Lox
Date: 11 Oct 09 - 06:54 PM

Sorry folks,

I have to add a point of information to this thread.


Jim,

Please pay attention.

Neither you nor anyone else on this thread has been accused of being a "whinging liberal".


The only time the term "whinging liberal" has been used on this thread was in a PRETEND tirade against smokey.

You will find it here in this post

Please go back and read the post properly and in the process it might help you to understand what the term 'context' means. and the importance of reading peoples posts BEFORE you pass judgement on them.



Azizi,

Am I correct in recognizing that Jims apology fits your category of non-apology apologies?

I don't expect an answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what?
From: Lox
Date: 11 Oct 09 - 06:26 AM

"BECAUSE IN THIS RESPONSE YOU HAVE IGNORED MY TAILPIECE ADDENDUM THAT THE CLAIMS OF SATIRE & CONTEXT are a *pusillanimous, facile EVASION*;"

No I haven't.

Your addendum put your use of objectionable material into context.

You made your point well.


However, in the process, you also unwittingly proved that you can use examples of objectionable material to embellish a point of view that isn't objectionable.


In order to dispute this you have had to accuse me of ignoring part of your post thus being selective and taking your comments out of context.


"just saying, "Hey, I'm a licesnsed officially authorised SATIRIST & that's the CONTEXT I am working in" actually 'JUSTIFIES' FUCK-ALL."


I agree 100% with this.

That wouldn't satisfy me either and if Manning Davidson etc were to try it I would be forced to dismantle them piece by piece, beginning with the questions "does this person have a history of doing satire" and "who/what is being satirized".

In TT's case, i observe by watching his other material that he plays in social satire - i.e. he plays with cultural stereotypes, mainly of recognizable Irish attitudes and recogizable stereotypes of Irish people (such as "they're lazy and will go to any lengths to avoid work").

I think that in this case he was responding to an accusation that he was anti-semitic and he decided to play the stereotype of a North Dublin Gurrier who's attitude to anything is "F*** off or I'll burgle yer house" and used that character to demonstrate what anti-semitism really sounds like. I also think that he deliberately went too far in the belief that by exxaggerating and ridiculing such views he was distancing himself from them.

I think he made a mistake, but I am reluctant to fall one way or the other as his mistake has to do with the sensetive nature of the material.

On the one hand, his comments were tasteless and affensuve to not only Jews but anyone else who has strong feelings about the holocaust.

On the other hand, sensitive and taboo material is the stomping ground of social and political satire, as is evidenced in every issue of Private Eye magazine who are constantly in receipt of complaints, most famously after the infamous Diana Issue.

I'm going to try to avoid this thread now - I think I've had enough - I'll probably get drawn back though ...

Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what?
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Oct 09 - 06:21 AM

I prefer comedians who use satire in a more positive way.
right now we could do with someone satirising the Irish government.

Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 11 Oct 09 - 06:20 AM

Tiernan has done his fair share of Traveller jokes as well Jim, as you know. The last one on the Late Late Show even has RTE apologise for the content.

Still, I don't think that makes him a racist. He pushes the boundaries, showing up attitudes. Many of his jokes sail close to the wind, too close at time but he admits to taking risks. Nevertheless, many feel it is the comedians job, and Tiernan is one of those who feel it's his mission, to sail close to the wind and make his audience uneasy playing up existing but often suppressed and hidden, attitudes.

Now, having grown up in a place and time where those who were taken away and never came back were a fresh memory (and a father who was taken away in 1942 to spend years in a German labour camp) I have seen this turn comedians in Ireland are taking already, maybe thirty years ago. There's nothing new and cracking jokes about the holocaust doesn't immediately mean racism to me.

This sort of comedy is an immediate reaction to the mindset that drives this thread: that some subjects should not be made fun of. Mind you, the comedy wave I mentioned above came in a context where some Jewish groups cried racism when the Beatles released 'Hey Jude' with the argument 'Jude' was the German way of calling the prisoners in the camps, so in effect it would be hurtful to all victims to hear the song. And I kid you not, this actually happened.

Anyway, the breed of comedians who make 'nothing is sacred' their modus operandi will respond by cracking jokes at the [i]holier than thou[/i] attitude. Not necessarily very good or successful ones (I am not impressed with TT's latest although the 'Mexican' one got a good chuckle out of me at the time) but that's all it is, pulling at what society holds sacred and making the audience aware of existing attitudes, ones even they may be uneasy with harbouring remnants of within themselves. But it is not racism.

Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Oct 09 - 04:53 AM

If I have got Lox wrong - of course I apologise - he wasn't the target of this thread anyway, it was scumbag Tiernan, along with Manning,
Davidson and all the other scumbags who abuse their privileged position in the public eye to display their low-forehead mentality with racist humour (sic).
The first time Tiernan emerged as a 'satirist' was in defence of his racist outburst, and to accept that excuse is, to my mind, excusing his outburst or being extremely náive - take your pick.
As for closet racism being a "nonsensical insult" - go and thumb your way through similar threads and see how many posting begin "I'm not a racist but....." - they are as real as Tiernan's anti- Semitism as far as I'm concerned.
If I over-reacted - perhaps I'm not alone; personally I find "whingeing liberal" and "rabble rouser" offensive and somewhat spineless lines of argument - but there you go, maybe that's just me!
Racism is NOT a historical phenomenon; something that happened to Jews in the first half of the 20th century; it has always been with us and it's on the rise again - go and have a look at who is winning elections nowadays. During our work with Travellers we got a chance to see it up close - even experienced it personally on a couple of occasions for simply 'being there'. It is a tolerance of racism towards Travellers that is enabling the present 'ethnic cleansing' campaign that is taking place here in Ireland at the present time. Racism is inhuman, lethal even (go and ask Stephen Lawrence's parents) - it certainly isn't funny.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Oct 09 - 10:52 PM

'MtheGM, you have ... argued your case... clearly, convincingly and effectively and your arguments have been strengthened considerably by your use of examples of objectionable language in a deeper context ...
... and by demonstrating the power and clarity of such a device you have shown that objectionable language, even on the subject of the holocaust, can have a context in which its use is justifiable.'

I don't think I have, Lox; BECAUSE IN THIS RESPONSE YOU HAVE IGNORED MY TAILPIECE ADDENDUM THAT THE CLAIMS OF SATIRE & CONTEXT are a *pusillanimous, facile EVASION*; which we can all use at any time if we want [which, as you admit, Crow Sister & Sugarfoot & I have all demo'd] — BUT just saying, "Hey, I'm a licesnsed officially authorised SATIRIST & that's the CONTEXT I am working in" actually 'JUSTIFIES' FUCK-ALL.

Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what?
From: Declan
Date: 10 Oct 09 - 09:17 PM

Late at night, so I probably should wait until tomorrow to post, but here goes...

Seeing the youtube video and the remarks in context makes them seem a little less offensive than they origingally seemed in Black and White on a page. However I still think he crossed a line and I think it would have been better if he hadn't said those things whether he agreed wtth them or not.

I don't think that the holocaust is funny under any circustances, and making the comments whether he agreed with them or not had a major potential to offend.

Tommy Tiernan is no idiot and must have been aware of this potential when he said what he did. I think Lox has basically agreed with this position in more recent posts.

It scares me that the crowd seemed to find what he said hillarious. It also scared me that he was capable of thinking some of the things he said whether he meant them or not.

Can't help wondering why the questioner asked the question in the way that he did and whether there was some orchestration involved in this.

My basic position is unaltered, it was at best a silly thing to make these remarks, whether they reflect his views or not. If anyone with racist views takes succour in them on the basis that TT and others support their views, this is not a good outcome.

Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what?
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Oct 09 - 08:33 PM

I have to say I found him very funny,on the subject of the English,and the Cork accent,although his cork accent is only half right,when is he going to do Cavan?now thats a really funny accent.

Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what?
From: Smokey.
Date: 10 Oct 09 - 07:52 PM

He obviously went too far for some people, but that's not exactly an innovation in comedy.. I like him, and I don't think I'm a 'racist'. I don't think he's one either, from what I've seen. Everyone's entitled to their opinion I suppose, particularly me :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what?
From: Lox
Date: 10 Oct 09 - 06:39 PM

Looking back I can't help make an amusing observation.

I'm amazed at how many posters have in all sincerity made the point that it isn't justifiable to use extreme examples of offensive language to make ones point ...

... and then illustrated their point by using an example of offensive language.


Sugarfoot Jack, Crow sister and MtheGM, you have all argued your cases clearly, convincingly and effectively and your arguments have been strengthened considerably by your use of examples of objectionable language in a deeper context ...

... and by demonstrating the power and clarity of such a device you have shown that objectionable language, even on the subject of the holocaust, can have a context in which its use is justifiable.

The question remains as to whether TT used it in a justifiable way.

For me it's too close to call.

Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what?
From: Smokey.
Date: 10 Oct 09 - 05:34 PM

No problem Lox, and I thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what?
From: Lox
Date: 10 Oct 09 - 05:16 PM

Me neither!!!!!

Thanks for your support by the way.

Everyone!

Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 10 Oct 09 - 05:11 PM

""Maybe it was a bit risky, but hey I'm an edgy kind of humourist! And as you said upthread, if we have to explain our jokes, they wouldn't be so funny.."

If that's a fair comment, does it only apply to you?"

Sorry Lox, I was taking the piss out of my own anti-Catholic joke man. It wasn't intended as a 'fair comment'. It was intended as a ironic comment, pointing out the problem with needing to explain "edgy" jokes in the first place. Actually I can't even remember now what I meant - I've had too much cider. Maybe I'll try and pick up the thread when sober!

Otherwise, I'm doubly definitely not going into fuckin' stand-up...

Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what?
From: Lox
Date: 10 Oct 09 - 05:01 PM

Crow sister,

You did the same as sugarfoot Jack.

And you did the same thing as I did with smokey.

You took an objectionable comment and you used it to make a point.

I understand your point.

I know you don't have a problem with the Irish.

But however convoluted your reasons as compared to Tommy Tiernans for his holocaust rant, or mine for my anti smokey rant, or Sugarfoot Jacks for his Irish rant, it still remains true that you used an example of an objectionable comment to make a point and that at no time were you expressing any view about the Irish as being Jew Haters in the process.

You said:

"Maybe it was a bit risky, but hey I'm an edgy kind of humourist! And as you said upthread, if we have to explain our jokes, they wouldn't be so funny.."

If that's a fair comment, does it only apply to you?



I think there are grounds to be suspicious of TT and they are based in the fact that his rant had its roots in his resentment against being told what he can and can't say, so there was anger being directed against the American Jews in question, they were the butt of the joke for that reason and their jewish faith was a central part of it.

However, it wasn't the fact that it was someone Jewish saying it that provoked him, as is evidenced by the fact that he slates Frankie Boyle for the same reasons and in a similar way.

So while he went too far, it isn't accurate to call him an anti-semite.

Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what?
From: Peace
Date: 10 Oct 09 - 04:58 PM

I 'know' Lox well enough to say the following: He is NOT racist at all. Period.

Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 10 Oct 09 - 04:48 PM

Come off it Jim, Lox isn't a racist. He's anything but that.

He's giving the benefit of the doubt to a supposed 'satirist'.
I personally think he isn't correct in seeing 'satire' in this guys act. I don't find it there myself, though I can see why he might see it as such - hence my post offering the theory that TT was *possibly* satirising Irish Catholic anti-Semitic sentiment before a specifically Irish audience who *would* recognise it as such.

But Lox's posts make it blindingly clear that he's no racist.

Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what?
From: Smokey.
Date: 10 Oct 09 - 04:43 PM

You have to admire anyone with the special power to see through closets though.. How else can you spot a 'closet racist'? It's a bit of a nonsensical insult really..

Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what?
From: Lox
Date: 10 Oct 09 - 04:28 PM

"Here we have somebody happily accusing those of us who find racism offensive, of being "a typical whingeing liberal""


Here, Jim quotes from my "tirade" against Smokey.


This presumably is the only evidence he could find to support his assertion that I am a closet racist.


For those who wish to clarify whether or not I have something against "whingeing liberals" you may do so further back in this thread at my post of: Date: 09 Oct 09 - 06:54 AM

Once you have established that I actually like and share the same views as the alleged "whingeing liberal" in question, you may if you wish examine the substance of Jims accusation.


Jim - I'm not outraged, I'm just getting to know you.

Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 10 Oct 09 - 04:21 PM

"while crow sister is justified in finding his comments objectionable, she misses the point about why if she goes on to apparently retaliate against the Irish on behalf of jews."

Not a retaliation Lox. Being half Irish myself, I have no anti-Irish sentiment. But I'm sure I don't need to explain that.

My own anti-Catholic "joke", was intended as a form of satirical mimicry of comedians who maintain they are 'satirists' but are actually making highly debatable (if not completely failed) attempts at 'satire'.

The anti-Catholicism, seemed pertinent in context as the most readily available analogous *mirroring* of Teirans own anti-Semitic joke. Maybe it was a bit risky, but hey I'm an edgy kind of humourist! And as you said upthread, if we have to explain our jokes, they wouldn't be so funny..

Of course, I'm actually neither genuinely attempting to be funny, expressing 'retaliatory' anti-Irish sentiment, nor even satirising anti-Catholic sentiment, but attempting to mirror or satirise bad satire by using the most obvious equivalent religious stereotype to hand, in order to emphasise my point by using an analagous counterpoint.

As my satirical "joke" a) wasn't actually funny, b) called upon an equivalent mirroring racist and religious stereotype, c) and evidently also needed explaining. I hoped that I might have illustrated a point. It failed, nevertheless that was my intended purpose - not mere 'retaliation'.

Anyhoo, just to reassure folk, I won't be breaking into stand-up comedy anytime soon...

Subject: RE: BS: Tommy Teirnan - raving racist or what?
From: Smokey.
Date: 10 Oct 09 - 04:12 PM

No-one is supporting the words Tiernan said, Jim, especially not him. You're the one repeating them over and over again out of context. They are more offensive and damaging when you do that than when he said it in context. I respect that you don't like Tiernan or his humour, but all you are achieving here is free publicity for him.