Free Ireland

Subject: Free Ireland!
From: mikesamwild
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 05:42 AM

Free Ireland from the yoke of freedon to run her own affairs! Or can the EU be blamed?

The Celtic Tiger has had its teeth and claws well and truly pulled. Maybe time for a reality check and a route to more sustainable values. and the rest of us hopefully.

Subject: RE: Free Irealnd
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 06:17 AM

Well in the immortal words of Cole Porter.

If we'd thought a bit about the end of it
When we started painting the town
We'd have been aware that our love affair
Was too hot not to cool down

They gained their tiger teeth and claws at a prodigiour rate, and it was bound to end in tears.
They were bamboozled into voting YES at the second time of asking. I believe they should have stuck to their original instincts, and continued to vote NO.
Let the events in Ireland now, be a warning to those in the UK who want to further cede authority to Brussels.
It could happen here!
What is sauce for Lithuania, is almost certainly NEVER, sauce for Britain.
The EEC's 'One size fits all' mentality was doomed from the start.

Subject: RE: Free Irealnd
From: mandotim
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 07:00 AM

Er....the current economic crisis, according to all reliable evidence, originated with poor banking and other financial practices in the USA. So your solution is 'leave the EU and go into an economic world where we are even more reliant on the USA'? Reflex EU bashing sometimes looks faintly ridiculous in the face of hard evedence.

Subject: RE: Free Irealnd
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 07:09 AM

Who said leave the EEC?
They are in the EEC and that's it. What is wrong, is that they are being bullied into accepting a loan they would rather try to manage without.
That would seem to be a minority point of view in this day and age, of living beyond one's means

Subject: RE: Free Irealnd
From: mandotim
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 07:15 AM

You said you believe they should have stuck to voting 'no', implying that EU membership had something to do with their current travails? The bailout is not the problem, it's an attempted (even if possibly misguided) solution.

Subject: RE: Free Irealnd
From: skarpi
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 07:29 AM

I say no to EU and I will always do that .Iceland will not go into EU .
I hope Ireland will go out of EU .
EU is block of sharks who will take what ever they can to get money
out of it , for them self and theirs .

Just like the IMF urrrrr

Ireland should let the bank go over and let them be bankrupt , do not
spend more money on the banksharks ..let them roll over , it will
be bad for few months , but gets better sooner than you think ..
let the bank roll over ....we the people should not have to use our money to help the people who got us into this mess ..to go on ....
get huge bonus and so on , while the people suffer .....urrrrrr
let bank roll over in Ireland UK and Scotland .

kv Skarpi

Subject: RE: Free Irealnd
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 07:43 AM

Sorry Tim, but I don't see how you read anywhere in my post that the EEC is to blame for their present condition. The EEC is making it worse, that's all. As I said Ireland are now being forced into the position of becoming even more indebted, when they want to try to sort out their own problems.
This is by an organisation who have been unable to get their own accounts signed off, for several years. Hardly a shining example in financial accountability, or prudence!

Subject: RE: Free Irealnd
From: mandotim
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 08:18 AM

John, would you accept that the current recession was caused by American banks?

Subject: RE: Free Irealnd
From: Jack Campin
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 08:40 AM

The people calling the shots are not the EU but the IMF.

That is, the Americans, the people who got us all into this mess in the first place.

Subject: RE: Free Irealnd
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 09:40 AM

Oh yes, the banks in general, and the US banks in particular. Of that there is no doubt, but they're no going to help us out are they?
I mean if we were a third world country in danger of falling under communist influence, or in possession of large oil deposits.
Then I'm sure that Uncle Sam would send us a bit of foreign aid, just out of the goodness of his heart.
Just to help us out of our 'little local difficulty'
Hardy har har ☻
Yes I know the US is in the poop too, but I don't see them taking the lead in imposing controls or penalties on those same bankers.
After all if they did that, then other governments, would do likewise, instead of holding their fire, fearful that the poor bankers might leave to work in another country.

Subject: RE: Free Irealnd
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 Nov 10 - 01:22 PM

They chose to join the EC and they chose to go Euro - what's the problem???

Subject: RE: Free Ireland
From: goatfell
Date: 21 Nov 10 - 12:41 PM

I thought my country SCOTLAND was in the UK.
But i'm sorry for Ireland

Subject: RE: Free Ireland
From: mikesamwild
Date: 21 Nov 10 - 12:59 PM

If all the Amricans who claim Irish ancestry were to send a dollar?!

Subject: RE: Free Ireland
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 21 Nov 10 - 01:21 PM

Free Ireland!

Yes I do agree. He is pretty poor at the moment. Please get rid of him!

Ireland

Subject: RE: Free Ireland
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 21 Nov 10 - 01:30 PM

OOps that didn't work

Ireland

Subject: RE: Free Ireland
From: GUEST,Steamin' WIllie
Date: 21 Nov 10 - 01:40 PM

Free Ireland with every third pint of guinness.

That is about the value at present.

A few years ago, I was to relocate to Dublin, as it made sense of rmany reasons. What put me off was the price of property, both for the business and myself.

I looked at a house in Blackrock that was IR£950,000 but nowhere nerar worth it. It is back on the market, I noted last week when I was over, and when I checked, it was €300,000. As the two currencies are about the same in regard to sterling, that is not nice at all for the poor sod selling it.

Before the Trots start trotting out their "you shouldn't own propert" diatribe, that is a real story about a real family with real issues to consider.

Makes you think....

Subject: RE: Free Ireland
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Nov 10 - 02:29 PM

Damn - I was in the process of working out what a free ireland would come with, but that's probably about right.

Cash smapitalism. Free Angela Davis (or Nelson Mandela) with every packet.

But seriously Willie, relocation to Dublin for tax reasons? That was the norm - the enterprise zone and the IP write offs - but have you no loyalty to your country (not its ruling classes, that is different)? The tax break investors are fickle and undependable for the host anyway - Delorian to name one - and Don Bluth to name another. Ireland paid dearly for its irrational lust to host a car manufacturer and a film studio. A lose/lose deal.

Sad for the owners of the house - if it was a home and not an investment. If the latter, well, capitalism works by big boys' rules. You can't play and not pay. Been there, done that too.

Subject: RE: Free Ireland
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 21 Nov 10 - 02:33 PM

Mind you Black Rock and Killiney, were always the most expensive places to buy houses. Even Dun Laoghaire which is not that far away, is cheaper. I always wanted to live in Sandymount. Nice wee place, good beach, nice pubs, and near Landsdowne Road. Then there's always Ballsbridge or Irish Town.

Subject: RE: Free Ireland
From: mandotim
Date: 21 Nov 10 - 02:39 PM

Hey Willie; whether it's nice or not for the house seller depends on how much they paid for it; if they didn't sell last time they put it on the market, and they've lived there 20 years, they'll still make a profit. All depends on where you start from.

Subject: RE: Free Ireland
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 21 Nov 10 - 02:48 PM

"But seriously Willie, relocation to Dublin for tax reasons? That was the norm - the enterprise zone and the IP write offs - but have you no loyalty to your country (not its ruling classes, that is different)? The tax break investors are fickle and undependable for the host anyway - Delorian to name one"

Always best to check your facts Richard, The DeLorean DMC-12 was manufactured at the DMC factory in Dunmurry, Northern Ireland in the 1980's. Yes Northern Ireland was part of the UK in the 1980's.

Subject: RE: Free Ireland
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 21 Nov 10 - 05:03 PM

It was still set up with a large financial input from the taxpayer, which puts it in the same league

Subject: RE: Free Ireland
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 02:48 AM

Always best to check your facts Richard, The DeLorean DMC-12 was manufactured at the DMC factory in Dunmurry, Northern Ireland in the 1980's. Yes Northern Ireland was part of the UK in the 1980's.

Can't see any photos of it though on his flickr page!!!!

Subject: RE: Free Ireland
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 06:58 AM

Did you notice that? Richard automatically reckoning that I wanted to move to Ireland for tax reasons?

Just for the record, the UK company I ran manufactured equipment for the construction industry and with the advent of the Euro, it made more sense to have the overheads in Euros and be in the heart of the main market, OEM concrete equipment producers.

That would be Ireland then...

Mandotim - sorry I should have been specific. The actual house was sold, the buyers were selling up for whatever reasons they had.

John - we did look at Sandymount. In fact anywhere on the dart had attractions. Although once the M50 had managed to come further south, the foothills of the Dublin Hills looked attractive. I recall viewing an old farmhouse walking distance to Johnny Foxes. Now that was nice..... The farmhouse I live in now has had a few alterations inside, some of which are influenced by the one over there. Can't say the local pub has as much fame though.....

Subject: RE: Free Ireland
From: mikesamwild
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 07:18 AM

I put it on another thread but here it is again. Steve Jobs wants to pay off the debt, in return for rebranding it iLand.

It's in danger of being a virtual economy at this rate.

I noticed they are proposing a super tax on the greedy pigs who had their snouts in the property trough

Incidentally the students here in UK are campaigning to tax the offshore merchants and super-rich rather than cuts on the poor.

Subject: RE: Free Ireland
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 09:28 AM

As well as being a bit out of touch (with his quaint references to the EEC) John MacK has misunderstood Irealnd's crisis. It was not brought about by the EU but but by the the criminal behaviour of the banks (some of them UK-based) which threw their money - which wasn't really theirs of course - at property, and nothing else, qne did so with utter disregard for risk. A side-effect is that every beautiful view in Ireland is now blighted with tasteless mansions and sprawling bungalows that will stand empty for years to come.

It could of course be argued, and no dobt will be, that Ireland's politicians are guilty too, for allowing such reckless excess to go unchecked. But it is hard to see how membership of the EU - for all its faults - could be blamed for Ireland's present misery.

In aulking at economic union between the UK and Lithuania, is John perhaps counting himself among the haves, and wishing to divest himself of the have-nots? Surely it is a better world when rich and poor work together; when London and the southeast support Rochdale and points north; when Consolidated Goldfields in Soth Africa forced the government to embrace the majority black population in its economy and abandon apartheid. Rich enclaves seceding from poorer hinterlands is not a route to peaceful co-existence, the secession of Slovenia and Croatia from Yugoslavia being an egregious example.

Subject: RE: Free Ireland
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 09:43 AM

I would suggest the Irish government did a bit more than their fair share by not having any oversight over the banks, the financial regulator was essentially a non entity, by actually offering tax incentives for developers to further fuel the property bubble.

Even when the writing was on the wall the government not only didn't notice it, they didn't want to notice it. It not very long ago that then Taoiseach Bertie Ahern wondered why those questioning the property boom and the health of the economy didn't commit suicide. Seriously.

And then everything came tumbling down and the Fianna Fail talking heads all exclaiming they couldn't have foreseen it.

Labour Leader Pat Rabbitte can't contain himself any longer on live tellie

Subject: RE: Free Ireland
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 09:45 AM

Taoiseach Bertie Ahern addressing those who question the health of the Irish economy (2007)

Subject: RE: Free Ireland
From: Big Mick
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 10:11 AM

Peter K (Fionn), well said, as usual.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Free Ireland
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 10:17 AM

deputy rabbitte is very amusing and I agree with him, but deputy rabbite is just part of the pantomime.
However I am more inclined to vote for brer rabbitte than brer biffo , but the truth is they are all just puppets.

Subject: RE: Free Ireland
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 10:18 AM

pat rabbitte is not the labour leader, that is gilmore.

Subject: RE: Free Ireland
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 10:31 AM

Read all my posts Peter. I have already stated that I agree with Tim that the banks were to blame, in this thread.

Subject: RE: Free Ireland
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 10:58 AM

mmm Cowan was the finance guy who then became the big cheese and it all went wrong...
Where have we heard that before?

When he became Taoiseach, a friend in Wexford called him Biffo.

"Biffo?" I ventured.

"Arr, Biffo."   

"Big ignorant fecker from Offally."

Subject: RE: Free Ireland
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 07:41 PM

I suppose its true. The Irish (like us) could have been more circumspect in the boom years. But hell, we'd have missed out on a few good years.

And really, seeing as life's a bit of a miserable business - you can't really begrudge folks a bit of fun now and then. Less unemployment, their houses worth a bit more, a bit of re-focussing money away from the posh bits of the country, new hospitals built, the schools getting a lick of paint and new books...

I know ...no such thing as a free lunch, free England, free Ireland or whatever.... but if I were Tony and Gordon, I wouldn't apologise for it. Maybe Bertie would feel the same.

Subject: RE: Free Ireland
From: Suffet
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 09:44 PM

A view from the USA...

Ireland long a nation is a province once again!

Here are what her new corporate masters have squeezed from her people:

• The minimum wage cut by €1 per hour.

• 5% reductions in child care allowances, unemployment benefits, and public sector pensions.

• The imposition of a nationwide real estate tax.

• But NO INCREASE IN THE CORPORATE INCOME TAX, already the lowest in Western Europe.

The questions as always are: Who will profit? And who will pay? And the answers as always are what Billie Holiday told us in a song: "Them that's got shall get, them that's not shall lose."

Ireland's unemployment now stands at 12%. Of the €90 billion bailout from the EU and IMF, €15 billion will go right into the pockets of the bankers who are in large part responsible for the mess. Another €60 billion will go to securing Ireland's debt over the next 3 years, which it will have to pay off at high interest rates. Bankers and other creditors around the world not only get their asses hauled out of the sling, they also get a chance to reap a handsome profit from Ireland's misery.

So where are today's Brian Boru, Wolfe Tone, Robert Emmett, Bold Fenian Men, Padraig Pearse, and James Connolly? Are all the rebels dead and gone? I hope not.

Meanwhile my fellow Americans need to heed the warning from the plight of our brothers and sisters in Ireland where corporate gangsters stole their nation right out from under their feet. These thugs worship no God but the Almighty Euro-Pound-Dollar-Yen. If you think it can't happen in the USA, then think again! It has already happened to Greece as well as Ireland. Who's next? Portugal? Spain? Our own country?

These are just my opinions. I am no expert, and I could be wrong. But I fear that I am not.

--- Steve Suffet

Subject: RE: Free Ireland
From: skarpi
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 04:37 AM

hallo all , well now the IMF the wolfs have put their claws
into Ireland ...and are helping out the people who put the crisis
on the Nation of Ireland , Peter K .said and wrote :the criminal behaviour of the banks (some of them UK-based) , well why help them ??
let banks fall ..start over again its much cheaper than goin to IMF and
EU for help .

we here in Iceland let the banks fall , all three of them , yes
many people disagree with the goverment , but now more and more people
are seeing that this was the only thing to do , so now we are going up slower than we should , becouse of ( Icesave ) but when that
solved , we should go fast up again .

so I say , let the banks fall , don´t help the criminals bankers ...
put them down .

all the best Skarpi

Subject: RE: Free Ireland
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 05:37 AM

Yes, it was, of course, the UK banks that caused it. Everyting is the fault of the bastard Brits. Maybe the bhoyos in Clancys or O'Rileys or some such place in Chicago or New York need to renew their efforts to blow the bastards up again? Rid the world of the imperial oppressors is what I say. Well, one of them anyway...

:D

Subject: RE: Free Ireland
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 06:31 AM

Well a return to the maudlin rantings of the sentimental green beer drinking, shamrock wearing, and shroud waving, of any American who ever drank Guinness, isn't going to help one bit.
Steve Suffett falls back on the emotive rhetoric that has served Ireland so ill in the past.
As Big Al said, they had the good times, they thought they would never end. Now they have, and there's penance to pay. Yes the banks shit on them, they shat on us all. Moaning about it won't change anything, like it or lump it, we'll all have to grin and bear it.

Subject: RE: Free Ireland
From: MikeL2
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 06:50 AM

hi

Forget politics,sentiment & morals....let's just talk maths.

We UK are broke right????
Broke means we ain't got no money|??
Sooooo... how can we help re-finance Ireland and pay out multi billions on overseas aid???

Or am I missing something ??? or have the present government been telling porkies about the economy???

cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: Free Ireland
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 07:53 AM

Nah, we borrow the money from the bank, to lend it to Ireland, silly! :)

Subject: RE: Free Ireland
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 08:27 AM

He always reminds me of Frank Carson :)

Subject: RE: Free Ireland
From: MikeL2
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 10:05 AM

hi john

Ah so....we borrow money that we can't repay to Ireland who can't borrow any because they are broke?|??

Isn't this how we all got into a mess in the first place ???

Open the cage......

cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: Free Ireland
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 10:45 AM

Here's the explanation of how it works.

:)

Subject: RE: Free Ireland
From: Suffet
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 12:59 PM

John,

Emotive rhetoric or not, the capitalists are screwing Ireland the same way they screwed Greece. Again I ask who's next? Portugal? Spain? Maybe even the UK?

--- Steve

Subject: RE: Free Ireland
From: Thompson
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 11:36 AM

It would be insane to increase the corporate tax rate. Incidentally, it's not only the multinationals that gain from that tax rate - it also applies to even the tiniest exporter.

The real horror in Ireland is that this Budget will increase the division between rich and poor.

For many years Ireland had a relatively small gap between the richest and the poorest. Everyone was entitled to a good education and good medical care.

Now, because of the greed of the wealthy for more wealth, our country has been dstroyed.

Subject: RE: Free Ireland
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Nov 10 - 11:08 AM

hear hear

Subject: RE: Free Ireland
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Nov 10 - 01:17 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWQ6LXhKmaE&feature=player_embedded