BS: Christian Persecution

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 20 Oct 13 - 05:22 AM

But you persecute yourself every time you get upset when people react to what you post.

I don't know you. I can only read and interpret your words. You have a habit of slipping in your agenda followed by strong denial.

Either put more thought into whether your words express your meaning or carry on being surprised when people see through the fog and notice the divisive thrust of your overall argument.

Saying CofE members do and don't so how could I possibly. .. doesn't wash. Rather insulting really.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Oct 13 - 06:00 AM

""Don did, suggesting that there situation was comparable to persecuted Christians who are murdered, tortured, attacked, raped, forced to convert, property seized, houses burned,...""

""As you well know Jim, I do not lie.""

Once again the man who never lies proves himself doubly a liar.

What I actually said was that MGoH's comment """"One is where a minority defined by religion is under attack, either by the state or with the collusion or impotence of the state playing a part, typically involving harassment up to and including death,"" would equally apply to British Muslims.

Ask the woman who, with her children, recently found herself in a burning house in the middle of the night, whether she would consider that ""harassment up to and including death?

Of course, you can't ask her because they all burned in their beds, and they are not the first, nor I fear, the last).

Of course, Keith cannot accept that fact so he twists the statement into something I never have said, nor ever would say.

Which exposes him for the foul liar he is.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Oct 13 - 06:07 AM

"Filthy lie."
I really hope you have given yourself a keyboard shortcut to this - it seems to be your sole response to argument nowadays.
Everything else I wrote is freely accessible from virtually every thread you have contributed to - plenty to be had on this thread - but you might start with your 'Muslim implant' claim - the filthiest of your Islamophobic claims.
Then we'll work down your list if you feel you have the inclination.
There is nothing in any way personal in my attitude to you, it is all a direct response to what you have written - be kind enough to respond to what I have to say rather than resorting to meaningless invective.
By the way
Boo-Boo writes
"There may be a few anomalies on the list, as it is compiled by keyword search from our main database. Neither is this a complete account of Islamic terror attacks on Christians since much of the violence goes unreported."
Is this merely part of his cut-'n-paste or an open admission that he is part of 'The Religion of Peace' set-up, just wondered?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 20 Oct 13 - 11:58 AM

the religion of peace is not bobads, but a muslim organization.
I doubt that anyone here accuses all muslims, or even most, of being violent, even though their prophet was. in fact muslim villagers have at times defended their Christian neighbours from attacking islamists.
I am sure most muslims do not subscribe to terrorism.
but I am also sure that it is safer to be of another faith , homosexual, or adulterous in western countries than in muslim states ,- but I suppose it would not serve jim and muskets purposes to speak against that!

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Oct 13 - 12:38 PM

I have no agenda Musket.
You try to read one into my posts is all.
Don, that shocking murder was just murder.
Nothing to do with religion.
Jim, if it was not a filthy lie, put up an example.
You can not because it is a filthy lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Oct 13 - 12:47 PM

but you might start with your 'Muslim implant' claim - the filthiest of your Islamophobic claims.

You have made that accusation so many times, but it is a lie and you know it.
I stated many times on that thread that the offending had nothing to do with Islam.
I have since produced the actual quotes when you have lied before, yet you lie again.

Prominent left wing British Pakistanis like Alibhai-Brown were blaming the culture.
I said I had no way of knowing but believed them because of who they were.
The only question is why you refuse to listen to articulate, educated, left-wing people from within the community talking about their community.
Racism?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Oct 13 - 01:23 PM

"Prominent left wing British Pakistanis like Alibhai-Brown were blaming the culture."
You have never produced on single quote from one single individual that comes anywhere your devastating claim that around 500,000 British citizen (Male Pakistani population of Britain) are culturally implanted with the tendency to have sex with underage girls which they have to suppress (a time-bomb waiting to go off)
Should a prominent person ever make such a horrific statement they wold not only never work again, but they would be liable to prosecution under the incitement to race hatred laws.
In the extremely unlikely case that any of them ever did make such a horrific claim it alters your own position not one whit - such a statement is monstrous and anybody giving as their opinion is a monster.
You gave it as your opinion.
But feel free to give us as many examples as you like of somebody saying such a thing, but please present it along with your actual claim so I don't have to dredge my way through your abominable 'Muslim Predudice thread - again.
There - down at the first fence.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket between courses
Date: 20 Oct 13 - 01:48 PM

Don't make mental leaps pete.

I know damn well that tolerance of non religious thoughts and deeds is lower to the point of being appalling in many countries where Islam is recognised as a state religion.
I am on record for, as an ex advisor at the Dept of Health, refusing to join a delegation looking at recognising medical school output in Saudi Arabia because of their gender clause. I have written to and signed petitions to FIFA regarding awarding the world cup to Qatar. Interestingly, Qatar Airways was cheaper than their neighbours Etihad when I went to Thailand earlier this month but on principle refused to give them my business.

Theocracy is to be resisted and the free world would raise its profile more if it refused to deal with savages.

However. .... Don't expect me to be grateful for the freedom to criticise religion where I feel appropriate. It isn't because Christian churches are tolerant, it's because society is tolerant of religions.

Keith. I had nothing better to do, pissing it down and couldn't get in the garden, so I reread some of your posts. I wanted to know if I was wrong and had been doing you a mis justice.

On reflection. I stand by my opinion that you are pushing an agenda. That the word Christian exercises you more than the word persecution. When I wonder why that could be, the only reasons are not nice. Not nice at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Oct 13 - 01:51 PM

It seems to me that the very same kind of generalisations about how Pakistani Muslims are corrupted by their culture which Jim interprets Keith as having made could rather more convincingly be made as respects Jim in relation to Catholicism.

And in neither case would the charge actually be accurate, so far as what has been written goes.

Sometimes we are tempted to go beyond what has actually been written or said, and read into it what we believe is the underlying belief system, and if it is sufficiently hateful to go for it tooth and nail. The danger is that in doing so we risk turning into the mirror image of what we believe we are attacking.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Oct 13 - 02:30 PM

On reflection. I stand by my opinion that you are pushing an agenda. That the word Christian exercises you more than the word persecution.
I can not stop you thinking it Musket, but you are wrong.
Nothing in my posts would make a fair minded person think that of me.

Jim.
You have never produced on single quote from one single individual that comes anywhere your devastating claim that around 500,000 British citizen
Not a single quote, no.
Lots of them.
They all said that the offending derived from their culture.
I just said that I had come to believe them. Why don't you believe them?

That was nearly 4 years ago and is the only "evidence" of racism you have ever produced.
You just said, " this is the umpteenth thread Keith has dominated in which he has openly expressed his hatred of all things Muslim."

If that is not a filthy lie, produce an example.
You can not because it is a filthy lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Oct 13 - 02:43 PM

Both of you,
WHY CAN'T YOU RESPOND TO WHAT IS ACTUALLY SAID INSTEAD OF ENDLESSLY SPECULATING ABOUT WHY I SAID IT?

Perhaps because smearing is easier for you?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Oct 13 - 03:14 PM

"I just said that I had come to believe them. Why don't you believe them?"
Because they are a figment of your sick imagination - nobody said them - you have never produced one single quote of anybody having said them, nobody holding public office would have dared say them, you invented them - simple as that.
Easily enough to prove me wrong though........ 1 2 3 4
"You can not because it is a filthy lie."
There goes that bloody keyboard shortcut again.
"Jim interprets Keith as having made"
Don't you dare start Keith's game Mac - it's beneath you.
He said he believed that all British male Pakistanis were culturally implanted to give them the inclination to have sex with underage girls - he went on to say that most of them managed to resist that cultural implant.
There is no room for "interpretation" in that statement - unless you'd like to suggest one???
Do not get involved in defending this racist shit - look what happened to his Fairy Godmother!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Oct 13 - 03:33 PM

The Thread title
The Subject - Muslim Prejudice.
The context - an over-representation by Muslims of sex crimes against underage girls.
Two of Keith's quotes:
"There is lots of other dreadful crime for which other groups are responsible, but let us accept that this is a crime that the culture (not the religion) of the Pakistani community is largely responsible for".

"Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 07:10 AM
Don, no one on this thread has claimed any of those things.
Don I do now "believe that all male Pakistani Muslims have a culturally implanted tendency" but only because of the testimony of all those knowledgeable people, and always acknowledging that only a tiny minority succumb.
Do you dismiss all that just because it does not fit your preconceptions, or do you have some powerful evidence to the contrary that you have not shared with us?"

No examples of "knowledgeable people" having made such statements have ever been produced, and even if they had, it would not make the slightest difference - Keith's view, Keith's belief.
Interpret away
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Oct 13 - 03:48 PM

Jim, Alibhai-Brown, Lord Ahmed, and Mohamed Shafiq were the ones I quoted at length (apart from Anne Cryer, Jack Straw and the Pakistani Ch4 journalist).
Deny that?
They all said the offending came from aspects of the culture.
deny that?
A culture impinges on all within it.
If not, what proportion will you accept?

That is what they all said.
Why do you reject their informed view?
Why do you vilify me for believing what THEY say about a culture they have personal, intimate knowledge of or are actually part of?

AND, WHY CAN WE NOT JUST DISCUSS RELIGIOUS PERSECUTION INSTEAD OF ME?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: bobad
Date: 20 Oct 13 - 05:02 PM

"Why do you vilify me ..."

Because vilification is Jimbo's stock-in-trade, especially when anyone produces facts and figures that contradict his obsessive fixations - that and juvenile name calling is what he is left with. It is very sad actually and the reason why I no longer read the garbage he posts. Say you piece and ignore him - you will be better off for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Oct 13 - 06:37 PM

but I am also sure that it is safer to be of another faith , homosexual, or adulterous in western countries than in muslim states ,- but I suppose it would not serve jim and muskets purposes to speak against that!

Poor chap, they're all ignoring you! But I won't. I'll speak against it. It would be safer everywhere if no-one bothered with "having a faith". 'Tis "faiths" that fuel hatred towards gay people, women, etc. Claiming that the nation of your faith is a tad better than the nations of other people's faiths is just a big lie. The fact is, we're not better, we're just slightly less bad. We're very bad instead of very very bad. And, in many respects, even that's a moot point. Women bishops, anyone? Gay marriage, guys?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: bobad
Date: 20 Oct 13 - 07:06 PM

"Gunmen on a motorbike shot dead three people, including an eight-year-old girl, as they fired on a group outside a church in Cairo, Egypt's interior ministry said.

Sunday night's attack was the first such assault targeting Christians in Cairo since the military coup that ousted president Mohamed Morsi.

It targeted a group of people who had emerged from the church in north Cairo's Al-Warak neighbourhood after attending a wedding, the ministry said.

It said an eight-year-old girl, a woman and a man were killed and nine others wounded in the attack.

"There were two men on a motorbike and one of them opened fire," said the interior ministry."

Al Jazeera

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Oct 13 - 07:28 PM

To say that a particular culture can influence people from that culture in such a way as to have an impact on how they may behave is not in itself an extreme thing to say.

For example, to say that most men in Britain have grown up in a sexist culture, and this means our attitudes and behaviour towards women are liable to be affected, and that this can be a factor underlying such things as domestic abuse and rape, is quite a reasonable thesis, and is not at all the same as saying that all British men are rapists or are likely to be rapists.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Oct 13 - 07:44 PM

Was that you in The Grauniad the other day, M of H? My mum looks for my letter every morning and is nearly always disappointed, though I've had a good few in there over the years. I'll have to try harder!

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: bobad
Date: 20 Oct 13 - 07:49 PM

"To say that a particular culture can influence people from that culture in such a way as to have an impact on how they may behave is not in itself an extreme thing to say."

Unless that particular culture is Islamic then that makes you an Islamophobe.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Oct 13 - 09:44 PM

that makes you an Islamophobe.

Not necessarily; you could simply be a ignorant jackass.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Oct 13 - 06:32 PM

Actually it'd be pretty weird to have a culture that didn't have an impact on how you behaved. I can't quite imagine such a thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 02:20 AM

So.. You reckon that criticising Islam makes you an Islamophobe but no such sanction for criticism of Christianity?

Is this an example of so called Christian persecution? I suspect its just whinging.   

The fact is, being accused of Islamophobia is because you are not deemed by others as being of that cult. There is a cultural issue here that if you criticise Islam you are criticising others but criticise Christianity and you are perceived as self criticism. Hence when The council of Mosques speak out against crime in the name of their faith, we don't call it Islamophobia.

We, in the sense of the majority of the population are perceived to be culturally Christian. I can't have an issue with my heritage but those that make the mental leap and count me as Christian, this perspective being an example, are deluding themselves.

The CofE gladly count anyone who is indigenously British as Christian. Especially when defending the role of the Lords Spiritual.

The God delusion surely moves in mysterious ways. ......

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 02:36 AM

The CofE gladly count anyone who is indigenously British as Christian

Where do you find such nonsense, or do you make it up yourself?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 03:56 AM

"Jim, Alibhai-Brown, Lord Ahmed, and Mohamed Shafiq were the ones I quoted at length (apart from Anne Cryer, Jack Straw and the Pakistani Ch4 journalist)"
None o them made the claim you did that 25000 British citizens were, by way of their culture, potential sexual perverts inclined to commit serious crimes, and you refuse to either give them having done so or linking us to what they said - this is totally your horrific invention.
I find it difficult to understand what you hope to achieve here.
You fill these threads with your hate-filled agenda - you refuse to qualify your claims with information, you ignore what others put up and you ignore requests for you to do so.
You have bent over backwards to remove my and others democratic rights to discuss these topics fully.
And you persistently lie on statements you have made, both on this thread and in the past.
Your friend Bobad fills page after page with 'facts' from an openly declared Islamaphobic hate-site which compares being a Muslim with being a member of the Ku Klux Klan.
He has presented similar 'facts' from similar sources in the past.
Criticising Islam does not make anybody an Islamophobe - distorting information, applying it to all Muslims and using every opportunity to pass on that message most certainly does.
Add to this your refusal to put this in context with all forms of religious persecution and to attempt to deny others the right to do so makes you a dedicated fanatic on par with those producing such sites as Bobad draws his information from - your message is exactly the same.
The historically proven facts are simple.
Religious organisations, given the power to do so will pass on their 'messages' using any method at their disposal: mind bending indoctrination, spiritual blackmail, persecution and even mass murder, genocide and Holy War.      
This is pretty well admitted, and even boasted of by the most fanatical of those organisations.
Christianity is no exception to this practice; it has in the past and continues, where it can to indoctrinate and to persecute in the name of its God.
Its representatives have dismissed past behaviour as being correct and have openly stated that they would do the same again if they felt it necessary.
Calling for sympathy for such an organisation and refusing to put its own behaviour into context of the persecution it is now suffering is not to end that persecution, but to escalate it into Holy War.
They are all capable of it, they have all done it and they would all do it again if we let them
Doesn't get any more difficult than that
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 04:04 AM

I said only a tiny minority offend.
People from that culture said the offending came from that culture.
My assumption was that culture effects all, to a greater or lesser extent.
Again Jim, if not all what proportion will you accept?

And Jim, which of the murders on Bobad's list do you deny happened?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 04:22 AM

"I said only a tiny minority offend."
You said the entire Muslim Pakistani population are "implanted" (app. 5000,000
Nobody else has ever made such an outrageous claim nor would the law allow them to
I have no other information other than the few hundred who have been prosecuted - nor do you
"And Jim, which of the murders on Bobad's list do you deny happened?
Ditto - which of them can you or he prove did?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 05:25 AM

I remembered many of them Jim.
I googled a couple that I did not remember.
I am sure they did not need to make any up whatever their motivation.

I did say that "only a tiny minority" were offending.
Deny that?
I did assume that culture effects all.
AGAIN, WHAT PROPORTION WILL YOU ACCEPT IF NOT ALL?

Nobody else has ever made such an outrageous claim nor would the law allow them to

You have claimed the Britain is a "deeply racist country."
Is it in our genes or does it derive from our culture?

Should this academic be locked up?http://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2013/07/03/comment-our-worst-grooming-cases-are-rooted-in-the-culture-o

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 05:29 AM

No. I don't make it up. The church doesn't need me to. It gets on just fine on its own.

Its claim of how many Christians there are in this country is so far out compared to the number of people who would describe themselves as such. ..

ONS point it out far better than I ever could.

The RCN surveyed their members a few years ago and where "religion" was entered, most nurses used to put CofE where a patient didn't say otherwise. ONS quote this as one example of many where counting Christians is concerned.

I wouldn't get so wound up about it but such numbers are loudly displayed whenever disestablishment is debated. Also, the rather repugnant but legislatively accurate "Christian country" tosh.

We are a multicultural country yet one cult, with less than 1% of the population being active, insist on keeping laws based on their particular superstition. Their exclusively male leaders are allowed to sit in the upper house.

21st century anyone?

If they weren't embedded in law, rational people wouldn't have to criticise so much. Laws concerning equality wouldn't have to give them clauses to let them discriminate against women or have the freedom to call a lifestyle unnatural.

After all, if we question their persecution we are classed as persecuting them.

It wouldn't take much to allow Christians to get on with their hobby. Just cast their statutory influence out and the rest of us can get on with our lives without superstition being an influence on law.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 05:44 AM

So how do you justify, "The CofE gladly count anyone who is indigenously British as Christian"?
They do not.
Did you make it up?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 05:51 AM

"THE ENGLISH CHURCH CENSUS
The English Church Census was carried out by Christian Research on 8 May 2005 with the participation of 18,720 churches - half of the total of 37,501 known churches in England originally contacted. Statistics and figures below are therefore based on information supplied by churches on attendance figures for all services on May 2005.
Estimates have been made for those who did not respond, partly on the basis that their figures would on average be similar to those who did respond, but also comparing the results with previous studies and/or published denominational figures.
Further information on the English Church Census' methodology can be obtained from 'Religious Trends 6' and 'Pulling Out of the Nosedive', Christian Research 2006.

GENERAL CENSUS FINDINGS
Overall church attendance
Based on the Census findings it is now estimated that:
Of the 50,309,000 people living in England, 3,166,200 usually attend church on a Sunday; regular churchgoers therefore amount to 6.3% of the total population.
The number of existing churches in England is estimated to stand at 37,501.
The proportion of churches per individuals is now one church to 1,340 people; the size of the average Sunday congregation, however, is 84.
Since 1998 there has been an overall decline in regular church attendance of 15%, from 3,714,700 to 3,166,200.
The largest section of regular churchgoers, 57%, live in towns or suburban areas; 24% in cities or estates, and 19% in rural areas.

Ethnicity and regular churchgoing
Census figures reveal that at present 83% of churchgoers are white, 10% black, and 7% from various other non-white ethnic backgrounds.
This means that non-white church attendance has increased by 19% since 1998, while the white churchgoing community has dropped by 19%.
According to these figures, black church attendance is at least three times their proportion in the population, which was 2.6% in the 2001 National Census and is currently estimated to be around 3.8%.
Church attendance among Chinese, Korean and Japanese is also well above their proportion in the population, which is estimated at 0.8% and was 0.4% in 2001.
The proportion of non-white churchgoers is highest in London, where 44% of churchgoers are now black, 14% other non-white, and only 42% white."

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 05:56 AM

"I remembered many of them Jim"
No you did't - you only read cut-'n-pastes.
These lists are totally meaningless and valueless
They have been used to "prove" facts about Jews, Israelis, blacks, Christians, homosexuals, Americans...... you name it, there's a list
Some of the 'facts' are indisputably true, some invented, some axaggerated
The don't mean shit when taken out of context of the tit-fot-tat violence, the religious conflicts, the struggles for land, oil, profits... that is happening in the world today.
But please feel free to advocate on behalf of of a site that describes being a Muslim as being a member of the Ku Klux Klan so we can finally establish your political affiliations once and for all.
"AGAIN, WHAT PROPORTION WILL YOU ACCEPT IF NOT ALL?"
I don't accept any proportion as thing stand at the present.
All the people you have said support you in your "All male Pakistani" claims have warned against drawing conclusions from the handful of cases and the "unreliable and poorly researched" (researchers quote) figures availale - Jack Straw even countered any cultural claim by referring to "tostesterone buzzing young men"
But again, please feel free to pursue your "All male Pakistani" claim so we know where you stand
The fact that you absolved those who "suppress" their cultural implants makes it even worse.
Personally, I believe it far less dangerous to have a handful of in-your-face pedophiles do deal with than an entire population of suppressed pedophiles.
My view on British racism seems to have been borne out by the survey that produced a third of those questioned and admitting to holding and openly expressing racist views.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 06:39 AM

And on these spurious figures, (even The Archbishop of York conceded on NewsNight that they included where baptisms formed part of a service, hence bumping up the numbers with relatives of the child) the bishops carry on claiming their place in the legislature, claiming this is a Christian country.

By the way, the figures for the overall population are way out in the figures you put. By 10 million, or 20% as it works out... Dwindling numbers don't give me cause for celebration, but assertiveness in the face of them does give me cause for concern. And it should concern every rational person.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 07:48 AM

So how do you justify, "The CofE gladly count anyone who is indigenously British as Christian"?
They do not.
Did you make it up?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 07:49 AM

I didn't want to comment on Keith's link before I had a chance to read it properly - I suggest he does.
They are somewhat random selections from an obviously long and complex thesis, some of which suggests that Pakistani culture may, in part, have some influence on the behaviour of the handful of criminals apprehended and tried so far.
The author nowhere assets that this culture has influenced or infected even the cultural adherents, let alone those who have absorbed much of the culture of the country they have chosen to live in.
We have no idea of what he bases his opinions (that's all they are), nor do we know what conclusion he has reached about the fact that that same culture forbids sex outside marriage and drinking alcohol, both of which are major aspects of the criminal abuse in question.
I certainly am not in the position to dispute any learned theses, but none of us are in the position to use carefully extracted snippets in pursuit of a well established agenda.      
I meant to add to my comments about Jack Straw's statement on under-age sex, that it was his conclusions, along with those of the Scottish and Northern England police and judiciary that Keith carefully omitted from the original cutting he cut-'n-pasted - agenda driven or what!!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 08:02 AM

Jim, that the offending derives from the culture did not come from me.
I believe it because it has been said by many people in a position to know.
Deny that?

As McGrath said last night, everyone is affected to some extent by their culture.

You claim that British people are "deeply racist" because of our culture.
Why is OK for you to say that?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 08:13 AM

"I believe it because it has been said by many people in a position to know.
Deny that?"
I certainly don't deny it has been said, The BNP, Marine Le Penne et al say it all the time - oh, and you do!
There is no research not a shred of hard evidence to back up any of these statements
"You claim that British people are "deeply racist" because of our culture."
I make no such claims nor am I in the position to do so, I said it was an opinion based on my experience in three of Britain's major cities and from my reading
It appears to be an opinion shared by a third of those questioned who confessed to holding and expressing racist views.
im Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 08:20 AM

I believe it because it has been said by many people in a position to know.
Deny that?

(I do not include B** or Le Penne in that category. Nor should you)

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 08:33 AM

The Pope is in a position to know a thing or two about God. Doesn't make the concept any more credible.

Next bit of chiselling away at your claims.   Ready for it? They say that if you are baptized you are a Christian.

No you are not.   Unless you were baptized as an adult. I assume I was baptized. No idea if I was but it would be odd if I wasn't. Yet I have never ever not for a single minute been a Christian. Not even when doing a reading at a funeral. Not even when promising to bring my children up as Christians, not even the religious sections of the vows at my first wedding.

It is the tradition, not the imaginary friend that counts. Mumbling vows is part of the fun and fantasy for most people.

Happy now?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 08:34 AM

"Deny that?"
Of course I ******* do - show me one single statement from a responsible person "in a position to know" who links sexual perversion and culture to an entire gender of a population - produce it.
Can I re-iterate a point about my view on racism in Britain   
I have said I encountered passive racism from fellow workers on a regular basis throughout my working life.
Only on two occasions have I ever encountered people who would be prepared to act on that racism; once from a member of the National Front, another from somebody who was about to take part in a firebomb attack on a Travellers site in South London.
Britain as a whole is a hospitable, friendly and tolerant place, occasionally given to outbursts of racism by genuine concerns which are leapt upon by the sewer press and scum like Enoch Powell - not forgetting your good self, of course.
Now - your examples of of "people in the know" and their statements?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 08:44 AM

They say that if you are baptized you are a Christian.


Where do you find such nonsense, or do you make it up yourself?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 08:54 AM

Jim, again, I have provided many examples of people close to and within the community who say that the offending derives from the culture.

I think that all are influenced to a greater or lesser extent by their culture.

You can not deny the first.
The second is an obvious fact.

That is my whole case.
I have told you many times that I neither know nor care why they do it, but have to believe people like that.

We have had this exact dialogue on so many threads before.
You always start it when your arguments fail.
What is the point?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 01:20 PM

The state between baptism and confirmation.

So you are saying there us no such thing as a Christian child? Funny. Joe Offer bit my head off for saying that. Jerk The Sea Cadet accused me of bring an acolyte of Dawkins because he once got into a row with The Archbishop of Canterbury for that particular argument.

Now... I know you are a pick n mix rather than dedicated Christian, but at least when I quote your big cheese, don't accuse me of making the bloody thing up. People reading this, knowing no better would wonder if you are right, and that would be so frustrating because you deny your own faith when it suits you, print figures out of context when it suits you and slip in your politics through the back door when it suits you.

Well, you don't have to look up Christian in Wikipedia to question your hiding behind the title to substantiate your twaddle.



Any real Christians want to join the debate? The boutique ones have put roller skates on the goal posts again. (No pete, I said roller skates, not holy rollers.....)

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 03:00 PM

"Jim, again, I have provided many examples of people close to and within the community who say that the offending derives from the culture."
No you haven't - you have provided a couple of names who said exactly what I said they said - all of them warned against using what they did say the way you deliberately have - you were the person their mothers warned them about when they left home.
It is obvious that you intend to take what you claim they said with you to your grave.
You don't comment on my description of how the few convicted criminals in no way represent Muslim, Pakistani culture by their behaviour ; why should you, as it doesn't fit your agenda?
The people we are discussing are Products of a British Pakistani culture and have rejected many values of their old culture - their behaviour is far more representative of the host culture which can boast an overwhelming representation in sex crimes, under-age sex and pedophilia - all undisputed facts.
I think we're done here, don't you?
Your refusal to qualify your claim of statements by "those in the position to know" - is a sufficient-enough answer in itself.
You have emerged from your closet in your support for ultra-fascist websites claiming to be a Muslim is equivalent to belonging to the Ku-Klux-Clan.
You have re-stated your belief that all Male Pakistanis are implanted.
You have compounded your lying by not even attempting to defend your 'secret friends in responsible places.
In short - you have once again underlined what an appalling little man you really are.
What more could a girl possibly wish for?
Must go; I think Holby City is about to start - whoops, just started!
Bye now
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 03:14 PM

Musket, the CofE gets its numbers from the census, and they do not count babies as congregants.

Jim, you have made the same accusations as you always make, and I have knocked them down in the same way I always do.
What was the point?

All those people I quoted stated that there was an issue with that community and that offence, and they all ascribed it to the culture.
I do not know about that culture and have no interest in it.

I have not supported any website, but am quite certain that every murder and mass murder on that list happened.
Find just one that did not and you will force me to eat my words.
Good luck with that.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 04:39 PM

I'm a bit puzzled why a generalisation about the Britiish having a tendency, rooted in a national culture, to be racist, is particularly different from a suggested generalisation about Pakistan's culture playing a part in certain offending patterns among a tiny minority.

Neither might in fact be valid, but even so that would not mean that they were in themselves to be seen as an all compassing attack on the communities involved. The same would apply if either generalisation were valid.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket being patriotic
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 01:10 AM

All countries try to adopt an identity. Therefore all countries can encourage or at least not combat persecution of those not seen to be the mainstream. Scapegoat politics. Happens everywhere.

My beef here is that one particular identifiable group, unique in being a sizeable minority in many countries, is being highlighted out of context. As if the word Christian rather than minority is significant.



Keith. The CofE spent a huge PR campaign and commissioned polls to "clarify" the census information. Counting baptisms was part of it after expressing disappointment with the last census. Although their spin doctors were excellent at confusing religious with Christian. ... (Independent - article by Sandy Totsvig.)

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 02:53 AM

I think you mean Sandy Toksvig, but I still can not find it.
The census tells us how many adults describe themselves as Christian.
You can not "clarify" that and CofE does not try to.

"They say that if you are baptized you are a Christian."
Made up.

"The CofE gladly count anyone who is indigenously British as Christian"
Made up.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 04:08 AM

"I have not supported any website, but am quite certain that every murder and mass murder on that list happened."
A contradiction in terms - surely?
"I'm a bit puzzled why a generalisation about the British having a tendency, rooted in a national culture, to be racist"
Keith is the only one to have ever stated this Mac - I suggest you ask him.
I said I believed there to be a great deal of racism in Britain; I also said I encountered it regularly at work, so much so that I found myself avoiding conversations which might lead to the subject being raised.
It might have been an inheritance of Empire a long time ago, but that is long past and no longer a feature of British life.
A recent survey in Britain found that one third of the people questioned admitted to holding and expressing racist views.
Ironically, the report was published in The Daily Mail - one of the newspapers that regularly do their bit to sow the seeds of racial unrest with their attacks on immigrants and Muslims and linking them with unemployment, housing shortages and terrorism.
Britain has fairly stringent anti-racist laws, if race wasn't an issue this would be somewhat like regularly like spraying the Thames with anti-crocodile powder to drive them away.
Jim Carroll
Religion in Britain
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20675307

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 04:14 AM

"I have not supported any website, but am quite certain that every murder and mass murder on that list happened."
A contradiction in terms - surely?

No it is not, and don't call me Shirley.

I do not support the site.
I do believe that all those murders and mass murders happened to real people because they are Christian.
If you can find one that never happened, I would have to eat my words.
Good luck with that Jim.