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BS: Christian Persecution
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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution From: Mrrzy Date: 15 Mar 11 - 06:45 PM They must only be counting persecution by other religions against Christianity. Right now what the Moslems are doing to each other far outnumbers what they are doing against any Christians, who are only a part of their Western target area anyway. And the Christians in our military are having a fine old time of it getting the ragheads... which wasn't counted either, I bet. And they probably counted the fighting against our invasion as anti-Christian too, which of course they are trying to make it be but it was originally against the invader, whoever they were. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution From: GUEST,999 Date: 15 Mar 11 - 06:52 PM Religion Religious Beliefs. There has been religious freedom for centuries in Ethiopia. The Ethiopian Orthodox Church is the oldest sub-Saharan African church, and the first mosque in Africa was built in the Tigre province. Christianity and Islam have coexisted peacefully for hundreds of years, and the Christian kings of Ethiopia gave Muhammad refuge during his persecution in southern Arabia, causing the Prophet to declare Ethiopia exempt from Muslim holy wars. It is not uncommon for Christians and Muslims to visit each other's house of worship to seek health or prosperity. The dominant religion has been Orthodox Christianity since King 'Ēzānā of Axum adopted Christianity in 333. It was the official religion during the reign of the monarchy and is currently the unofficial religion. Because of the spread of Islam in Africa, Ethiopian Orthodox Christianity was severed from the Christian world. This has led to many unique characteristics of the church, which is considered the most Judaic formal Christian church. The Ethiopian Orthodox Church lays claim to the original Ark of the Covenant, and replicas (called tabotat ) are housed in a central sanctuary in all churches; it is the tabot that consecrates a church. The Ethiopian Orthodox Church is the only established church that has rejected the doctrine of Pauline Christianity, which states that the Old Testament lost its binding force after the coming of Jesus. The Old Testament focus of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church includes dietary laws similar to the kosher tradition, circumcision after the eighth day of birth, and a Saturday sabbath. Judaism historically was a major religion, although the vast majority of Ethiopian Jews (called Beta Israel) reside in Israel today. The Beta Israel were politically powerful at certain times. Ethiopian Jews often were persecuted during the last few hundred years; that resulted in massive secret airlifts in 1984 and 1991 by the Israeli military. Islam has been a significant religion in Ethiopia since the eighth century but has been viewed as the religion of the "outside" by many Christians and scholars. Non-Muslims traditionally have interpreted Ethiopian Islam as hostile. This prejudice is a result of the dominance of Christianity. Polytheistic religions are found in the lowlands, which also have received Protestant missionaries. These Evangelical churches are fast growing, but Orthodox Christianity and Islam claim the adherence of 85 to 90 percent of the population. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution From: Don Firth Date: 15 Mar 11 - 07:03 PM . . . the usual suspects. . . . Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution From: Bill D Date: 15 Mar 11 - 08:42 PM How it works when deciding who is persecuted and who is right more, it you care to follow the metaphors... http://28.media.tumblr.com/Y8jvP17tWljg9pek5NodYGXFo1_500.gif http://30.media.tumblr.com/Y8jvP17tWjlmatvjpPYA3Fogo1_500.gif http://30.media.tumblr.com/Y8jvP17tWjikd6uucXVho9Afo1_500.gif http://24.media.tumblr.com/Y8jvP17tWjr070vw3i20WRq5o1_500.gif http://www.boingboing.net/images/ttdb091410.jpg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 16 Mar 11 - 02:19 AM Greg, you keep asking "So, Keith: are you rejoicing and exceeding glad, or not? " No Greg I am not, but then I am not being persecuted. I see people suffering, and am saddened. I thought that was normal and human, but I am not you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 Mar 11 - 03:57 AM "Jim, your quote ""Embrace her martyrdom with joy and gratitude"." does not give one Google hit. Are you sure you have it right?" Thanks for that clarification Joe - it was never my intention to attack catholics with this story, just another example of the abuse of power, which I believe can come with all religions. I do notice that you say only some of the Rome hierarchy disproved of the events described. Interesting that Keith attempted to cast doubt on it though! I seem to sense a pattern in all of this. Earlier encounters with Keith include: His defence of the killing by the Israeli army, of Turkish aid bringers attempting to break the Gaza blockade. Defence of the use of chemical weapons on Palestinians (by disputing their chemical nature). The defence of those in command at the time of the Bloody Sunday Massacre in Derry, absolving those officers in charge and overriding the suggestion that those in charge are the ones ultimately responsible for what happens in situations such as these (the buck stops here?). The defence of violent sectarian marches (or jolly days out, as he passed them off). The three nights of rioting in Belfast which ensued from one of these, he passed of as being the fault of children - on the single word a priest) There are more - but for me, the most telling was the Muslim prejudice marathon, where he attempted to prove, even to the extent of doctoring his evidence by removing awkward passages, that British Pakistanis were cultural degenerates. At one spectacular point he appeared to claim that, as the Catholic clergy had their own customs and traditions, they might be described as a distinct ethnic group, therefore to criticise them for clercal child abuse might be described as 'racism' - I think we were all more than a little gobsmacked at that one. Keith appears, to me at least, to have a taste for holy wars and racial conflicts, being quite happy to take up the cause of one side against the other. In response to the trouncing he took on the last thread, he has opened this thread, apparently to once again attack a specific religion/race. Too much of a coincidence for me, I'm afraid. As far as I'm concerned, all religions are capable of, and have been guilty of religious intolerance and persucution at one time or another and, as is happening in Ireland at present, need to have the power and influence they wield closely examined and, if necessary, brought in check. To invite us to support one over another is inflammatory sectarian and, on occasion, racist. The suggestion that brand A might be preferable to brand B is a non-starter, to me anyway. Another couple of 'religious parables' then I'm off to the Inishowen singing week-end, a lovely event held about half an hour's drive away from Derry City, attended by Brits, Irish, Americans, Catholics, Protestants, atheists..... all gathered for the songs and the pleasure of each others company - not to mention the Guinness. Parable 1 Over the last couple of weeks the US Supreme Court has ruled as legal, the actions of a Christian sect who assembled at the funeral of a soldier killed in Afghnistan and hurled abuse at the mourners and at the coffin of the dead soldier. They claimed that because the soldier had been homosexual and, as "God hates fags", his death was a punishment for being gay. Parable 2 A state in the US (may be Arkansas, but not sure) is attempting to make the killing of doctors who perform pregnancy terminations 'justifiable homicide' - in practical terms, unpunishable. Funny old world!! Jim Carroll PS Sorry this is so long Keith - bear with it! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution From: Joe Offer Date: 16 Mar 11 - 03:57 AM Well, I can't agree with the cardinal who has accused the UK government of operating an "anti-Christian foreign policy" by supporting the government in Pakistan. That's a bit far-fetched. Still, Christians ARE persecuted in many lands, as are people of other faiths. There has been a significant change in the treatment of Christian minorities in Arab lands since about 1990. Christian communities that have existed in Arab lands since the first and second centuries, have all but disappeared in many nations. Most significant is the Christian population of Baghdad, now mostly living as refugees in a variety of nations. Christian Palestinians have suffered the same fate, and the story is the same for Christians in most Arab lands. Mind you, much of this persecution may be in retaliation against aggression by Christians of European ancestry - but most Arab Christians are Arab, not European; and their Christianity is Middle Eastern, not European. They got their Christianity before it arrived in Europe. Expanding on what I said above, the victims of persecution are usually innocent victims of the battles between the people in power - and the people in power never to seem to suffer much. If you can see justice in the persecution of innocent members of any group, you need to take another look at your principles. -Joe- PS to Greg F and whoever else cares to use the term - the "imaginary friend" shit is offensive, rude, and bigoted. You know it, and you use the term with intent to insult. If you don't understand or don't appreciate what other people hold sacred, common manners require you to |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 16 Mar 11 - 04:07 AM Joe, you have not responded to Jim's tirade against me. Did you remember that I have refuted as a lie evry one of his accusations. Can any pressure be put on him to desist? Jim, your quote really did not get any hits. It is unlikely to be a quote. Last time the whole story and the quote turned out to be made up. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution From: Joe Offer Date: 16 Mar 11 - 04:22 AM Well, Jim, the bishop in Brazil may not have used the phrase ""Embrace her martyrdom with joy and gratitude" - but the language he used was equally appalling, and he was excoriated for it in the progressive Catholic press in the U.S. It's hard to believe, but the Brazilian bishop does seem to enjoy strong support among some members of the "pro-life" movement, who appear to applaud his callousness. It was South Dakota that proposed legislation that would declare "homicide is permissible if committed by a person 'while resisting an attempt to harm' an unborn fetus." While it's easy to infer the law would protect those who attack someone performing an abortion, that is apparently not stated in the proposed legislation. The proposal, I understand, has been "tabled indefinitely." I think most Americans (and most American jurists) regret the Supreme Court decision allowing an anti-homosexual Christian sect to demonstrate at funerals. However, we Americans take our freedom of speech very seriously - we think the funeral demonstrators are appalling, but we can't imagine restricting their right to demonstrate. That's a basic philosophical difference between Americans and Europeans, and I see it all the time here at Mudcat. Europeans think that authority must act to control harmful speech; and Americans are appalled at that idea, even though they may be appalled by the speech that they refuse to control. Keith, I have to say that in most circumstances, I agree with Jim. His tone may be unnecessarily harsh, but he speaks the truth. You tend to value "correct ideology" over justice and fair treatment of the oppressed. I agree with you on some matters, but I usually find myself agreeing with Jim while still being really pissed off at him. It's not a black-and-white world. Please don't take these things personally. I think the world of you both. You're good people. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution From: Joe Offer Date: 16 Mar 11 - 04:32 AM ...and I suspect that Jim Carroll would grumpily admit that he has a fair amount of respect for you, Keith. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 16 Mar 11 - 04:37 AM I am not guilty of those accusations. I refute every one. They are lies. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution From: Joe Offer Date: 16 Mar 11 - 04:44 AM OK, so this is what Jim said, and I guess I have to say that Keith has a valid complaint and that Jim has unfairly distorted Keith's positions in a cheap attempt to ridicule his thinking. Here's what Jim said:
Defence of the use of chemical weapons on Palestinians (by disputing their chemical nature). The defence of those in command at the time of the Bloody Sunday Massacre in Derry, absolving those officers in charge and overriding the suggestion that those in charge are the ones ultimately responsible for what happens in situations such as these (the buck stops here?). The defence of violent sectarian marches (or jolly days out, as he passed them off). The three nights of rioting in Belfast which ensued from one of these, he passed of as being the fault of children - on the single word a priest) There are more - but for me, the most telling was the Muslim prejudice marathon, where he attempted to prove, even to the extent of doctoring his evidence by removing awkward passages, that British Pakistanis were cultural degenerates. At one spectacular point he appeared to claim that, as the Catholic clergy had their own customs and traditions, they might be described as a distinct ethnic group, therefore to criticise them for clercal child abuse might be described as 'racism' - I think we were all more than a little gobsmacked at that one. Keith appears, to me at least, to have a taste for holy wars and racial conflicts, being quite happy to take up the cause of one side against the other. In response to the trouncing he took on the last thread, he has opened this thread, apparently to once again attack a specific religion/race. Too much of a coincidence for me, I'm afraid. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution From: Will Fly Date: 16 Mar 11 - 05:07 AM A few years ago, I went to a talk at the tiny Pavilion Theatre in Brighton - part of the annual Brighton Festival - to hear a discussion with a guest speaker on the subjects of science and religion. The speaker, a lucid, intelligent and charming man, delivered a calm, quiet and rational exposition of his views on religion. Views which, as an atheist since my early teens, I thoroughly agreed with, and agree with today. The violence and persecution committed by all religions against each other, cloaked in the name of "god" and "faith" and "belief" are truly disgusting - and have been in existence since the creation of those religions. It's very clear that no amount of writing, lecturing, preaching, praying or proselytising can stem the flow of "man's inhumanity to man". That's my belief, never stated on Mudcat before and, having said it once, I shan't say it again. The festival speaker, by the way, was Richard Dawkins. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 16 Mar 11 - 05:24 AM Defending the killing of Turkish aid bringers is a gross and dishonest simplification of a complex issu. I deplored the use of smoke on civillians, but correctly denied that smoke is classified as a chemical weapon. Bloody Sunday, the guilty soldiers were not acting under orders to shoot protesters. Parades. Sinn Fein did not regard them as sectarian, defended them and agreed with them. I took their stance. The only trouble in the hundreds of marches was before the first march, and the trouble makers were said by local people to be children and bussed in dissidents. That I doctored awkward passages, straight lie. that British Pakistanis were cultural degenerates, straight lie. to once again attack a specific religion/race. straight lie. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 Mar 11 - 05:55 AM Well - there you have it - (un)fortunately all these are verifiable by the relevant threads - do check; Keith has a habit of going in circles and ambushing himself from behind. "a cheap attempt " Hardly cheap Joe -do y know how much all this typing costs me in nail varnish? Happy St Pat's day all, Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 Mar 11 - 06:23 AM PS Do find it extraordinary that Keith denies having doctored his evidence, despite the fact he did so in the public gaze - sums him up really Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 16 Mar 11 - 06:34 AM Jim's false claim, and me showing it false is here. thread.cfm?threadid=135090&messages=1357&page=1&desc=yes#3112299 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution From: Silas Date: 16 Mar 11 - 06:46 AM "PS to Greg F and whoever else cares to use the term - the "imaginary friend" shit is offensive, rude, and bigoted. You know it, and you use the term with intent to insult. If you don't understand or don't appreciate what other people hold sacred, common manners require you to shut the fuck up refrain from disparagement." Whilst it is true that the sensibilities of any religious group are easily offended, either deliberately or by accident, the impact that these groups, Christianity in particular, has on the lifestyle and moral choices of us non-religious people is much more than offensive, it is dangerous and causes much suffering. It affects simple everyday things like shopping and entertainment, it dictates things that we are allowed to see and are not allowed to see. It creates poverty whilst being in possession of enormous wealth; it creates suffering and hardship whist promoting love and peace. It stifles research and promotes myth and fable as an absolute truth. It promotes homophobia and sexism and it indoctrinates children with complex guilt problems. Now, personally, I find it really offensive that my lifestyle is dictated to by a religious cult that I have no interest in and have no wish to join. So, you may forgive us for not worrying too much about religious sects persecuting each other, let them get on with it as far as I am concerned, and whilst they are beating each other up whilst at the same time preaching love and tolerance, the rest of us can get on with our lives. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 16 Mar 11 - 07:01 AM If a secular or atheistic state persecutes minorities, is that OK as long as they are not faith minorities? If a reigious state persecutes a minority, is that wrong as long as they are not a faith minority? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution From: Silas Date: 16 Mar 11 - 07:04 AM Sorry, is this addressed to me? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 16 Mar 11 - 07:08 AM Yes Silas, sorry for not clarifying. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution From: Silas Date: 16 Mar 11 - 07:14 AM Persecution of any group, minority or not is clearly wrong. They all do it to each other and have done for centuries. I can't see it stopping any time now, and for any one 'side' to cry foul is a bit rich really. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 16 Mar 11 - 07:21 AM So you think that the persecution is wrong, but they just should not complain about being persecuted, even if the victims have never harmed anyone in their poor, downtrodden lives? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution From: Silas Date: 16 Mar 11 - 07:25 AM Oh no. They can complain as much as they like, but they should not expect anyone to listen or take notice whislt in another part of the world they are doing exactly the same thing to another 'persecuted minority' |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 16 Mar 11 - 07:28 AM Turkish Aid Ships for Gaza. The Israelis delivered the aid from all the ships to Gaza and harmed no one, except on the one ship where passengers tried to kill them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution From: Silas Date: 16 Mar 11 - 07:30 AM "Turkish Aid Ships for Gaza. The Israelis delivered the aid from all the ships to Gaza and harmed no one, except on the one ship where passengers tried to kill them." Really?? Are we living on the same planet here or what? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 16 Mar 11 - 07:39 AM Each ship was taken to an Israeli port, unloaded and searched. The aid was then taken straight to Gaza, but was not accepted for weeks. There was only violence on one ship. I know this is a complex issue, and we debated it for many weeks. I am accused of supporting murder. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution From: Silas Date: 16 Mar 11 - 08:02 AM Anyone who supports the terrorist state of Israel in my opinion supports murder. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 16 Mar 11 - 08:14 AM An opinion to which you are entitled. You do not state it as an unequivocal fact, or suggest that all my views are worthless because of it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 16 Mar 11 - 08:32 AM Silas, sorry I missed this one. "Oh no. They can complain as much as they like, but they should not expect anyone to listen or take notice whilst in another part of the world they are doing exactly the same thing to another 'persecuted minority' " So the oppressed Christians in the slums of Cairo or Beijing, should not complain because Christians might be persecuting someone in ..er, I can not think of anywhere actually, but hypothetically? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution From: GUEST,999 Date: 16 Mar 11 - 08:43 AM "Anyone who supports the terrorist state of Israel in my opinion supports murder." I feel the same, Silas, about anyone who supports Palestine. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution From: Silas Date: 16 Mar 11 - 08:44 AM No Keith, I clearly said that they could complain as much as they like... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution From: Silas Date: 16 Mar 11 - 08:46 AM Well 999, I would expect nothing less on an American dominated site. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution From: GUEST,Patsy Date: 16 Mar 11 - 08:48 AM This is typical Christian hypocrisy to shout about persecution and ill treatment and then in the next breath make noises about 'gypsies and travellers living just a bit too close' who are generally just as Christian in their beliefs. I don't often hear much compassion there. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution From: Ebbie Date: 16 Mar 11 - 11:34 AM "Well 999, I would expect nothing less on an American dominated site." Silas Since Guest/999 is Canadian, Silas, I don't think the opinion he espouses is nationalistic. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution From: Silas Date: 16 Mar 11 - 11:39 AM American, Canadian.....? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie Date: 16 Mar 11 - 12:28 PM Just a quick note to M'unlearned friend regarding his comments a few posts up. I am glad (though somewhat disorientated) to see you agreeing with the main thrust of my last post. Keep it up, your journey to the dark side will be complete... You mentioned the case of the nurse I raised. I don't need links to newspaper stories, I work for / interfere in (delete as you feel fit) healthcare regulation. I could get the full file down but "to add to debate in a folk music forum" isn't a good enough excuse. I do know, as was made public by her employer, that after due warnings as per their HR polices, she was referred to the Nurses and Midwifery Council (NMC) and the case was dropped after she agreed that her approach was not consistent with the expectations of her registration. As a result, she was reinstated. I have been involved in similar issues regarding infection control. (Large crucifix on a chain, bangles on wrists, arm coverings on female Muslim nurses and doctors to name a few.) In almost every case, common sense prevailed, even when draconian written policies had to be rewritten to be workable. One overriding aspect of healthcare and religion which is to everybody's credit is that in the main, many healthcare professionals put their work before their creed. Hence seeing the naked body of a member of the opposite sex, giving contraception advice, dispensing morning after pills etc are carried out by many people who outside of their work would feel uncomfortable, but accept that not everybody shares their creed, nor would they be expected to. Their professionalism takes precedence, and we should all be grateful for that. the media stories of issues are the few, not the many. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 16 Mar 11 - 01:33 PM Quite how people killed by a mob or jailed on spurious grounds can manage at the same time to be doing exactly the same thing in some other part of the world is very hard to see. That applies equally where the victims are Muslim, Christian, Jewish or whatever. Natural thread drift is one thing, but the intentional diversion a thread about religious persecution in which innocent people are suffering, in the way that has been done here, is something else. It is is very easy indeed to start new threads to enable a discussion of separate topics that arises. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution From: Lighter Date: 16 Mar 11 - 01:46 PM All questions of who's evilest aside, it really isn't surprising that Christians are make up the largest numbner of people being persecuted for their religious beliefs worldwide. Because Christians live everywhere. In any society in which the Christian community is small enough to be persecuted at all, they are likely to be the largest of all religious minorities being persecuted. Add to that the fact that any other religious minorities being persecuted at the same time and in the same place will usually be members of relatively small, relatively regional faiths unless they are Muslims or Jews. All religious persecution is abhorrent. However, the fact that Christians are suffering most of it, numerically, in the 21st century proves nothing except that some benighted regimes and populations hate Christians. In the past, monotheistic religions have found it very easy to get revved up about killing others in the name of the one God. But in the modern world, few active monotheists either do this or recommend it. They're too busy worrying about their own lives. If Muslim fanatics are behind most persecution of Christians, that's not because they're Muslims, it's because they're fanatics. ("Fundamentalists" doesn't go far enough. Christian, Jewish, and Muslim fundamentalists are overwhelmingly peaceful. "Fanatics" are another category entirely.) So let's demand that all religious persecution stop everywhere. Now we can move on to the next problem. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution From: Joe Offer Date: 16 Mar 11 - 01:50 PM So, here's Silas and his reason for condemnation of all things religious:
Every group has its assholes - when you condemn all members of a group for the actions of that group's asshole minority, that's what most people call bigotry. Yes, there are many religious people who use their religion as an instrument of hatred and oppression - and that conduct is inexcusable. But that's not the way of most religious people. I look around in church on Sunday morning and a see a vast majority of good, gentle, generous, joyful, tolerant people. And I see a few assholes, too. For religious people, belief in God is part of their essence, part of who they are. It is sacred to them. When you dismiss their belief with an "imaginary friend" quip, you slap them in the face. And you know damn well you're insulting them when you use a phrase like that. I think that an essential part of showing respect for other people, is showing respect for what others hold as sacred. You don't have to espouse what others believe to respect their sense of what's sacred - but if you attack their beliefs (or what you think they believe), you attack them. Every group has members who cannot tolerate the beliefs and actions of others. I'd call those people fundamentalists (Lighter calls them "fanatics," which might be better). Even among those who profess no religious belief, there are those who cannot tolerate the beliefs and actions of others. Is there really much difference between intolerant believers, and intolerant unbelievers? If you're a tolerant person, you'll quit the "imaginary friend" shit. It's offensive. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution From: GUEST,999 Date: 16 Mar 11 - 02:39 PM Joe and I have been on the opposite sides of more arguments than any other person I ever met (almost, but I hid the body real well). On this issue I support him 100%. I fail to see why religions and religious people are fair game and the season's open year 'round. The large majority--99%--are just people. The 1% who do bad stuff should be punished without question. But that's about breaking the law; it's not about being religious. imo |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution From: Greg F. Date: 16 Mar 11 - 03:27 PM If you're a tolerant person, you'll quit the "imaginary friend" shit. It's offensive. OK, Joe, if you & others will quit the religious shit, which I and plenty of others find equally, if not more, offensive. Deal? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 16 Mar 11 - 03:38 PM How about we tolerate your disbelief, and you tolerate our belief, with neither of us making offensive comments about the other's belief/disbelief? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 16 Mar 11 - 03:39 PM "If you're a tolerant person..." If... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution From: Donuel Date: 16 Mar 11 - 03:44 PM Zero tolerence is the mantra around here. christian or any kind of persecution is not a problem for people here unless it raises their taxes or effects their commute. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution From: Steve Shaw Date: 16 Mar 11 - 04:00 PM I think that most of our major religions deserve all the attacks they receive. On the whole, they are scurrilous, authoritarian and controlling organisations which often preach intolerance. On the other hand, people who have made a quiet choice to follow a particular creed should be regarded as beyond criticism. Neither side need hector individuals about their personal standpoints. But we do live in a world in which religion seems to be the default position, something I vehemently object to as an atheist. I have to look at religious iconography wherever I go (I'll get over it) and my children were forced to endure acts of worship at school. My atheist tax money goes to help religious organisations and my BBC licence money is wasted on Songs Of Praise - and the archbishop gets air-time on the telly and an influential seat in the Lords simply because he happens to hold the post of Head Of Myth. Big religion simply doesn't know how to keep its big mouth shut. So, as soon as believers put their heads above the parapet in terms of attempting to spread their beliefs to others, or of criticising those whose beliefs are not theirs, they are fair game for argument. There is often steel behind the deceptively gentle proselytising and there is expression of unwarranted certainty which is very worrying. Religious certainty may give comfort to many people but it also spawns suicide bombing, let's not forget. And, worst of all, it's a pack of lies. We get religious intolerance and religious persecution because we have religion. It goes, unavoidably, with the territory. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 16 Mar 11 - 04:12 PM expression of unwarranted certainty which is very worrying. On both sides? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution From: Steve Shaw Date: 16 Mar 11 - 04:18 PM No. You won't find real atheists expressing certainties. We leave that to believers. Real atheists speak in terms of vanishingly-small probabilities, and we use evidence and reason to back up what we think. Pursue that line if you like, but it was not the intention of my post to start that all over again. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 16 Mar 11 - 04:26 PM "You won't find real atheists expressing certainties." There seem to be a fair number of unreal atheists in that case. As for "I have to look at religious iconography wherever I go" I'd be inclined to say that all of us are exposed to a far greater amount of materialist and implicitly anti-religious (and for that matter anti-humanist) imagery everywhere we look. Papers, TV. advertising... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 16 Mar 11 - 04:40 PM It would be a shame if this became yet another for/against religion thread. I gave some of the reasons why I started this one. Another was to have a comparison with the "Muslim prejudice" thread. My prediction was that people would be less concerned for Christians. I did not expect significant numbers to post IN FAVOUR of Christian persecution! The other thread did not produce that to the same extent, though some sought to explain why prejudice might be engendered in otherwise tolerant people. It poses the question, why overt hostility to all Christians expressed by significant numbers here, and not one contributor expressing hostility to all muslims on the other? |