BS: Christian Persecution

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 17 Jan 14 - 11:50 AM

"Jim, if neither of us, nor anyone else can find a false entry, it is probably mostly accurate."

From false premises anything follows.

Not enough to say you cannot find any false entries. You produce zero evidence for any entries PROVEN true.

This is YOUR assertion and it is YOUR job to supply proof.

You have relied for years on the impossibility of proving a negative, to cover the fact that you make unproven and unprovable assertions based on the bias of others.

This is the reason for your habit of demanding that others disprove your vicious, bigoted crap.

Then when challenged you back off and whine about not being responsible for repeating the views of others.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jan 14 - 12:35 PM

He's not doing too well so far - is he?
The very few I managed to find were similar - references to the perpetrators being Muslim, and sometimes the victims being Christian, but the vast majority of them were so vague as to be untraceable.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 17 Jan 14 - 12:53 PM

Don't worry. I'm a liar for watching the BBC 10.00pm News....

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jan 14 - 03:04 PM

Had a quick shufi through the first five items on Keith's list
1   All information from this comes from extremist web-sites
2   Police blame either terrorists or criminal gangs - no arrests, no definite suspects
3   Nothing
4   All information from extremist websites
5   Syrian rebels fighting Assad - nothing whatever to do with sectarian persecution, part of the Syrian revolt - all residents fled - no fatalities.

Wonder where Keith is - carefully selecting the attacks that were sectarian, having rejected the first five as useful, no doubt?
Though he has checked this site out
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jan 14 - 03:09 PM

You produce zero evidence for any entries PROVEN true.

Yes I did.
I provided corroboration for two random entries.
Jim says he has found some false ones, but has chosen not to reveal which.
Why should anyone believe him?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jan 14 - 03:12 PM

Don't worry. I'm a liar for watching the BBC 10.00pm News....

No.
You are a liar for inventing a crime that appeared on no news report.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jan 14 - 03:16 PM

You have now dropped your mask and are circulating propaganda directly lifted from a Muslim hate site.

No Jim.
You demanded I check the accuracy, so I did a couple of random checks.

Neither of us have found an error yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jan 14 - 03:21 PM

Had a quick shufi through the first five items on Keith's list

Date         Country         City/State         Killed         Injured         Description
9/22/2013         Pakistan         Peshawar         61         110         Two Shahid suicide bombers obliterate over sixty worshippers at a church service.
9/14/2013         Pakistan         Karachi         1         0         A Christian's throat is slit on the street after being branded an 'infidel' and blasphemer.
9/13/2013         Tanzania         Zanzibar         0         1         Muslims throw acid on a priest, badly burning him.
9/12/2013         Egypt         Sahel Selim         2         0         Two Copts are shot to death for refusing to pay Jizya to Muslims.
9/8/2013         Syria         Maaloula         3         6         Three Christians are murdered in their home, and six others taken hostage by Islamists.

I remember the church bombing.
The others, if true, seem to be Christians killed because they were Christians.
Shall I check if they are true, or will you Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Jan 14 - 04:24 PM

IF true?? SEEM to be??

Jeez, Keith, I thought you KNEW you were 100% right all the time 'cuz everyone agreed with you.

What happened?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jan 14 - 05:26 PM

I am, but I did not write the list Greg.
Can you find anything wrong with it?
Neither can I or Jim so far.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 17 Jan 14 - 05:56 PM

Apologies for the long cut'n paste, but unless it is posted in full with appropriate links, it seems that K A of H is unable to find it. Of course he won't read this because it strains his attention span to read anything longer than a limerick (by his own oft repeated admission).

Perhaps someone will give him the salient points.

It is worth mentioning that in the Central African Republic, Muslims are the MINORITY!

Religious violence in the Central African Republic has reached a new extreme with an act of cannibalism in the capital, Bangui. The BBC's Paul Wood has heard a graphic first-person account, which some might find upsetting.

The buses throwing up clouds of red clay dust had yet to rub out the ugly bloodstain in the dirt. A Muslim man had been murdered here a few days ago, by Christians. His limbs were hacked off. Then one of the crowd ate the flesh in a public demonstration of cannibalism.

We were filming nearby when a young man in a yellow T-shirt came up to talk to me. "I am the naughty one," he said in broken French. Puzzled, I shook his hand and was trying to ease past him when I noticed the machete tucked into his skinny jeans. "I am the naughty one," he repeated.
Continue reading the main story

"Start Quote
I ate his leg, the whole thing right down to the bone - with bread. That's why people call me Mad Dog."
Ouandja Magloire

Desecration of bodies in war

With a sickening feeling, I realised I was talking to the cannibal. Camera phones had captured the crime. The pictures show a charred and dismembered body being dragged through the street by a screaming mob. A man held a severed leg and bit down into it.

The same, slightly built figure was standing in front of me. He was even wearing the same yellow T-shirt as in the video. A few minutes earlier, I had spoken to a horrified witness, Ghislein Nzoto. He said it began when the Muslim man was dragged from a bus. "People started attacking him, kicking him. They smashed a rock against his head. They kept going even after he was dead." He went on: "They set the body on fire. There were about 20 youths. They cut a whole leg off. Then one of them started to eat it. He bit into it four times and swallowed. It was raw, not burned. "This was right in front of the Burundian peacekeepers. One of the soldiers vomited. Then he chased people away with his gun."

'I swore revenge'

The cannibal's name was Ouandja Magloire - though he told me he was now known as "Mad Dog".
There was a busy market either side of the street, people hawking brightly coloured cloth, skin-whitening creams, and piles of fresh loaves. We went somewhere a bit quieter so I could ask him why he had done this awful thing.
He told me that Muslims had killed his pregnant wife, his sister-in-law, and her new baby.

He saw a man sitting on the minibus - he thought he looked Muslim so he decided to follow the bus. More and more people joined him until he was at the head of a mob. "We followed him," he said. "If he reached the intersection, the Burundians would protect him. So we told the minibus driver to stop. The driver said: 'You're right. He is a Muslim.'" He described what happened after the man was dragged off the bus: "I kicked his legs out from under him. He fell down. I stabbed his eyes. "Muslim! Muslim! Muslim! I stabbed him in the head. I poured petrol on him. I burned him. Then I ate his leg, the whole thing right down to the white bone. That's why people call me Mad Dog."

On the video, "Mad Dog" is seen happily chewing, his cheeks bulging. He waves a leg about in between mouthfuls. I returned to the question of why he had done this. "Because I am angry," he said. He had no other explanation. During our interview, he betrayed no sign of that anger, or of pride, or regret, or of any emotion at all. His tone was neutral, his eyes and face blank. The witness I'd spoken to, Ghislein Nzoto, said no-one in the busy street had tried to help the victim. "No-one at all," he said, shaking his head. "Everyone's so angry with the Muslims. No way anyone was going to intervene."

But the most disturbing thing happened the next day, he said. "Mad Dog" returned, having saved some of the dead man's flesh. He put it between two halves of a baguette and ate it, with a side of okra.
Ghislein didn't agree with Muslims being killed but it was at least something he could comprehend, he said. Like most other Christians I spoke to, he was both appalled and baffled by the act of cannibalism.
Perhaps, he agreed with me, this atrocity was simply the act of an unbalanced individual. Or it might be the result of religious hatreds.

Or - his final explanation - this had something to do with sorcery.
Many of the Christian fighters we met - the anti-balaka - believe in magic. They go into battle wearing a variety of amulets. A group of fighters at a checkpoint told me some of the amulets contained the flesh of men they had killed.
CAR cannibal: Why I ate man's leg
BBC News ‎- 4 days ago

Also in:-

· Cannibal in Central African Republic ate man's leg as 'revenge' for his family's murder

The Independent‎ - 4 days ago
· 'Mad Dog' Cannibal Hunts Muslims in Central African Republic

International Business Times UK‎ - 4 days ago

Also in The Daily Mail, Huffington Post and others.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 17 Jan 14 - 06:08 PM

The real point is that K A of H doesn't believe that there is any evidence of Christians persecuting Muslims.

Nor does he believe that there is any reason for persecution other than religious.

Is the above case the only one ever, or is it (much more likely) the only one sensational, because of the cannibalism, that it couldn't be swept under the carpet by Muslim hating media.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jan 14 - 06:54 PM

"....Muslim hating media."

That wouldn't be the one that is controlled by Jews now, would it?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 01:57 AM

I know about that incident and it has been referenced here before.
I have never denied that Christians are capable of persecution, but this is not an example.
Christians and Muslims coexisted peacefully there until recently.
It changed when Muslim militias started massacring Christians.
Now we have Christian militias and people like this man out for vengeance.
What started as persecution of Christians is now sectarian fighting.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 02:21 AM

So.... Persecution of Christians is just good old sectarianism?

You should have said so. You wouldn't have had to look such a twat if you had only stated before that there are two sides to every coin.

I wonder what your concept is of these Christians? When you hear the term of you think of arranging the flowers on the altar and organising beetle drives for the church roof fund?

I doubt if you didn't know if it were Friday or Sunday you could tell the difference. But no. You defend as a Christian rather than an onlooker every time. Then call others liars.

Pathetic really.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 03:40 AM

Musket, you made up a story of Christians chopping up Muslim schoolkids.
That does make you a liar and a nasty one.
You also made up a quote from a site that does not exist

The violence in CAR began just a few weeks ago with massacres of Christians.
Now we have reprisals and sectarian violence.
You can say they are persecuting each other if you like.

Troubadour, you just showed that it is YOU not me who is incapable of reading what is posted.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 04:08 AM

"Jim says he has found some false ones, but has chosen not to reveal which.
Why should anyone believe him?"
Because, unlike you, I deliberately make it a policy on not telling lies, not because of any particularly high moral principles, but because I see no point in taking part in discussions that are generated by false information.
I come to these discussions to say what I think I know and to learn from others - not, again like you, to win prizes "I win" - a constant quote of yours.
You have been caught out over and over again deliberately lying (then blaming someone else) selecting information that you believe to be supportive of your case and omitting that which doesn't, of deliberately doctoring statements (you carefully cut out lines from Jack Straw's argument on Muslim sex crimes before you pasted it up) - on one occasion you even posted under a false identity supporting your own argument when you were getting no support from anywhere else - you were publicly warned by the site referees for having done this.
You are the most dishonest, disreputable and fanatical poster on this forum (I nearly wrote "one of the most" but I can't think of anybody who openly tells lies on this forum - not one, you stand alone in this.
I swore I wasn't going to enter into the "true-false" black hole that arguing with you eventually ends in.
Earlier I dipped into a few references earlier and found them unreliably ambivalent, untraceable, or openly false.
I have just gone through the first five and found them exactly as I described them.
The last one in particular is interesting because it has been put up to suggest that opposition to Assad is 'Muslim Jihad terrorism' - now there's a thought to be mulled over by the citizens of Homs who were massacred.
"The others, if true, seem to be Christians killed because they were Christians."
What kind of puerile argument is that - every crime committed against a Christian, Jew, Moslem, Bush Baptist..... must be a sectarian crime - you sodding idiot.
"I am, but I did not write the list Greg.
Can you find anything wrong with it?
Neither can I or Jim so far."
You seem, on the one hand to be totally ignoring the five items you have just been given, as is your persistent practice, and on the other, denying responsibility for the blanket support you have given to an extremist racist site - as is also your persistent practice - you openly and enthusiastically supported it, now take responsibility for having done so.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 04:32 AM

And before you tell us you don't tell lies Keith - you have just done exactly that
You have just been given five items that have been shown to be either flawed or openly false, yet you still claim:
"Can you find anything wrong with it? Neither can I or Jim so far."
You appear to be a congenital liar.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 04:57 AM

Just one more thing before I go out for some fresh air, away from the stench of hatred you manage to create around you.
"The others, if true, seem to be Christians killed because they were Christians."
Would you mind confirming that you actually believe that all crimes committed against Christians are "sectarian" so we can establish the level of idiocy you appear to have reached.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 06:17 AM

Jim, one of the five I remember.
Don't you?
The suicide church bomb.
How can that not be sectarian?

In the other four cases the killing seems to be religiously motivated.
Why do you doubt it?

AND WHY WILL YOU NOT TELL US WHICH ITEMS YOU FIND FALSE????
It is hard not to conclude you are lying again.

If I lied, I would leave the forum in shame.
It is completely untrue to say that I have.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 06:45 AM

Ah, that's better!
Your depraved hatred appears to have no limits
In order to save face you appear to have turned the bloody opposition to a murderous dictator into a Jihadist war.
The article containing the facts about the village being "held hostage" describes the combatants being "rebels including some Jihadists"
All the villagers were unharmed.
Thanks to the non-intervention of the West in Syria (supported by you)fundamentalists have become influential in the opposition of Assad.
This has been exacerbated by Britain selling weapons (including chemicals) and riot control equipment to Assad to allow him to continue to slaughter his people.
There are now estimated to be one million unsettled Syrian refugees fleeing from Assad
To describe this conflict as "Jihadist" in order to save face really is as squalid as it gets
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 09:20 AM

"The problems in CAR started only a few weeks ago."





Fuck me gently

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 10:37 AM

"Jim, one of the five I remember."
Absolutely pathetic
You have ignored every single point put to you, bar one, and you pathetically claim to "remember it" - with a reputation like yours - give us credit for some intelligence.
You are what you have displayed yourself to be - a lying, self- obsessed and extremely disturbed fanatic, totally lacking in any self-respect or humanity (I believe you once described yourself as a "Christian and offered to "pray for us" - do I have that right?
It goes perfectly with your claims of infallibility - "God on Our Side" I think the man sang"
I think that just about tops and tails it really - don't you.
The only thing that remains unclear is exactly how much of the - what &80 - &90 - of respect and agreement with your ideas your good fairy has stated he has for you, remains - or is he content to remain wading in your slime pit.
Boo-Boo doesn't bear taking seriously
Many thanks for your display here - it will come in handy for future reference and reminder, no doubt
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 12:04 PM

Musket, at least you have learned one thing.
There was peaceful coexistence in CAR until the Muslim militia began the massacres.
You yourself expressed horror at one report.
Remember?

Jim, did you not know that there has been persecution of minorities like Shia and Christian in some Islamist rebel held areas in Syria?
You have learned too then.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 04:28 AM

Ok. To be Christian persecution it has to be available now on The BBC.

I know Keith is going to bristle at the insinuation here so let me make quite clear that I notice the UKIP are distancing themselves from one if their councillors.

A UKIP politician is persecuting gay people by saying the recent floods are because of the vote to accept gay marriage into law. He then seeks to persecute the vast majority of the country by saying it is a Christian country and we are wrong for turning our backs on God.

Luckily we can laugh at the preposterous fool but you know, there is a huge groundswell of stupidity agreeing with him and irresponsible lack of condemnation of such tosh by people paid to speak for religious cults.

How many steps between him and a theocracy? Which political systems feature gangs of ignorant animals roaming round with machetes to defend their flavour of delusion?

It isn't just the church roof fund and village fêtes you know....

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 06:49 AM

"Musket, at least you have learned one thing."
Tsk, tsk – your infallibility is showing again
Must get a name for you, how does "Infallibility Achie" grab you?
"Jim, did you not know that there has been persecution of minorities like Shia and Christian in some Islamist rebel held areas in Syria?"
I did indeed; where you aware that the persecution of Muslims, Christians, Jews... by Muslims, Christians, Jews.... you name it, has been taking place as far back as you can go and that it is current in Britain (amply demonstrated by your good self) as we converse.
The persecution of non-believers is the stock-in-trade of all of the major religions and has been since their inception – what's your point?
I doubt if you have or ever will learn anything from this, or anything else – you appear not to do that sort of thing.
I count six threads discussing god and Christianity running currently on this forum at the present time – a bit like Sunday morning with the Jehovah's Witnesses!
Wonder if this counts as "Christian Persecution" - please don't answer Keith (though I have no doubt you will be unable to refrain from doing so) I really wasn't addressing you.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 06:57 AM

Oh, and by the way,
Did you know that the present persecution and carnage being carried out by Assad in Syria today has been facilitated by the fact that he is able to use weapons and equipment sold to him by the Christian West (among others)?
But of course you do - you have supported it continuously throughout these discussions
What was I thinking of asking such a silly question, heavens to Murgatroid?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 07:51 AM

I did indeed; where you aware that the persecution of Muslims, Christians, Jews... by Muslims, Christians, Jews.... you name it, has been taking place as far back as you can go and that it is current in Britain (amply demonstrated by your good self) as we converse.

It is not current in Britain today.
Not the kind of persecution that involves people being murdered, tortured, places of worship and homes destroyed, and peoples driven from their ancestral homes.
Indeed our minority communities are thriving and growing.

Musket, if you mean your made up massacre, yes it would be recorded on the BBC News site if they ever covered it, and such a heinous crime would also have been taken up by the other agencies and be recorded all over the net.
The fact that it is not appear anywhere is proof that it never happened.
That the chopped up school children fed to pigs was just a fantasy of a sick mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 08:30 AM

"It is not current in Britain today."
The persecution of Muslims has been commonplace in Briatain for deacades.
Arson attacks attacks and vandalisiation on Mosques, has increased since the murder f the soldier - official.
Pakistanis in Britain have been recognised as the most discriminated against in Britain.
Racist killings are not common but they have taken place, and when they have, the police have been recognised as being "institutionally racist" in their investigation of such crimes.
You want to operate Mike's 'sliding scale' of persecution - feel free, but widespread persecution exists throughout Britain today
One in three of the British people interviewed on the subject have admitted to holding and expressing racist views
This 'passive racism' impinges on the lives of the whole immigrant population in one way or another - from discrimination in everyday living, education, personal security and comfort, right up to fear for their lives.
God knows how much this would accelerate if your "cultural implant" theory was ever taken seriously.
This pattern is repeated throughout the Christian world - France, Germany, eastern Europe, where once again extreme racism is on the rise.
Won't go into the persecution of Muslims in Israel for fear of creating another black hole.
There is still far more persecution by Christians in the world as ther is of them
There always has been - as I said, it goes with all major religions and will remain so wherever religion has secular power and influence
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 09:19 AM

Not if by persecution you mean the kind that involves people being murdered, tortured, places of worship and homes destroyed, and peoples driven from their ancestral homes.
Our Mulsim community is thriving, growing and more are welcomed here every day.

Meanwhile Christian communities worldwide are being persecuted to extinction.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 12:03 PM

Could you be kind enough to specify and define the 'sliding scale' of persecution whose invention, or possession [the possessive adjective does not make clear which], you attribute to me? I regret to being entirely ignorant of and oblivious to its very existence; but should be fascinated to learn its details.

Thank you in anticipation.


~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 01:09 PM

"Not if by persecution you mean the kind that involves people being murdered, tortured,"
It seems that you are happy to condemn fanatical Islamists for murdering in the name of their religion, but are not prepared to even consider generations of ruined lives deliberately brought on families of "every British male Pakistani" (your very words, I think) - men women, children whose lives are scared and damaged by prejudice such as yours.
I don't mean anything - I don't differentiate between persecution by nutters and persecution by bigots like yourself on entire families and communities - sorry - that's not entirely true - I certainly do cnsider one far more serious, all-embracing and long lasting than the other - guess which?
I really am not surprised that you accept one without condemnation, being the bigot you are.
Mike
Throughout these arguments you have dismissed (even sneered at) racist persecution as being not serious enough to be considered persecution ("ah diddums" - I seem to remember was one of the phrases you used.)
May I say you do a fine line in double-standards, and when you can't be bothered to sell them yourself, your quite happy to let this abomination sell them on your behalf, offering a little immoral suport when he runs out of steam.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 02:15 PM

'("ah diddums" - I seem to remember was one of the phrases you used.)'--
.,,.
Such precision on Jim's part! 'Seems to remember', does he? In relation to what, precisely? Ah, he doesn't 'seem' to remember that, does he?

Still, never mind. He's not going to get the 'compliment of rational opposition' (Jane Austen) from me. I don't waste energy trying to engage in meaningful dialogue with hysterics.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 02:18 PM

I was just wondering about that 'sliding scale' he attributed to me: but I am left none the wiser. He can let it go, tho. I'm no longer the least bit interested in what he thought he meant by it. The moment has passed.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 02:43 PM

Jim, I share your abhorrence of all forms of persecution, and of clerical abuse.
On any threads on such subjects I will join you in condemning it unreservedly.
This thread is about actual religious persecution as I have described.
I strongly believe that evil is worthy of a dedicated thread.
Why don't you?
Is it because almost the only current victims are Christians?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 02:45 PM

"Such precision on Jim's part! 'Seems to remember', does he? In relation to what, precisely?"
It was in regard to my pointing out that a soldier in the Swiss Gaurd was sexually harassed by senior clergy in the Vatican - not a world shattering event until you put it in the context of the thousands of children raped and abused by Clergy from the same stable who had charge over both the bodies and, if we are to believe the píshoges, the souls of those children
My point is, and remains that all religions pose a threat and have been known to persecute at every level when the circumstance are favourable to do so - a fact Keith has persistently ruled as "offside".
I wonder which side of the percentage of your support for him that sort of thing falls in.
"The moment has passed."
You have persistently operated a sliding scale in all this in making one type of persecution less important than another and attempting, alongside Achey the Invincible, to rule persecution as not being valid to this discussion.
You would claim you don't know what I'm referring to, wouldn't you?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 03:09 PM

Well, as you have in fact provided a civil answer, Jim, I will politely reply thank you; tho I can't quite see all the cause of your objection to the points I made. In particular, I must take up your accusation that I think some persecution worse than other, because it seems to me self-evident that some persecution IS worse than other. I don't think that the Holocaust, or Stalin's gulag s and his 1936 Moscow Trials & executions and his extermination of the kulaks, or the worst excesses of the Inquisition, are to be placed on an equivalent footing to the Irish girls prevented from having abortions, who have been adduced here, by you & others, as being 'persecuted' in tones to suggest the severity of all these persecutions are equal. You remind me of someone [Richard Bridge IIRC?] accusing me in tones of reprimand on another thread of being more hostile towards some religions than others, as if that somehow wasn't cricket.

Sorry; but I think that is just plain silly. Some religions are more reprehensible and undesirable in their effects than others; and some persecutions likewise. If that's all you mean by a 'sliding scale' then let it slide!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 04:50 PM

Sick mind? I suppose you shouldn't believe every news report. A bit strong calling a reporter you claim you can't find someone with a sick mind though.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 05:02 PM

I claim I can't find?
It is a fact I can't find it.
It is a fact that no-one can find it, including you and all your mates.
It was just a sick lie, told by a sick liar.

Of course, you could always produce something and make me look silly, but you will come up with some pathetic reason why you won't.

Everyone will then know you are not just a liar, but a fool too.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 08:43 PM

"It changed when Muslim militias started massacring Christians.
Now we have Christian militias and people like this man out for vengeance."

When the Muslim MINORITY started massacring the vastly superior number of Christians eh?

I have this bridge to sell, that you might be interested in.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 02:01 AM

Ok here goes.

Keith is a racist bigoted member of a far right organisation called UKIP. He has a quest to push Christianity as above scrutiny and as a lackey for the establishment enjoys pushing falsehoods regarding the carnage and complete waste of lives that he calls "The Great War."

Happy now?



By the way. Did you get over to Israel last week for the funeral of that terrorist Sharon?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 02:46 AM

I am not a member or even a supporter of UKIP.
That exlains why I have never made any post extolling or supporting them.
You lie, as you always do.

Troubadour, if you do not believe me, how about Reuters, or any other news agency?

Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 12 Jan 14 - 07:26 AM

Re CAR, Reuters yesterday.
" Djotodia, who was swept to power by mainly Muslim rebels, known as Seleka, last March.

Abuses by Seleka forces had led to the creation of Christian self-defence militia and killings that evoked memories of Rwanda's genocide 20 years ago."
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/01/11/uk-centralafrican-idUKBREA090O220140111

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 02:51 AM

Guardian troub?
"Although Djotodia officially disbanded the Seleka, he proved unable to keep them in check. They went on to carry out countless atrocities against civilians, killing, looting and razing villages. The group is largely drawn from the CAR's Muslim minority and the conflict soon became defined along sectarian faultlines."
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/10/central-african-republic-president-resignation-djotodia

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 04:25 AM

Troubadour, if you read people's posts (which you accuse me of not doing!) or just read news reports before posting you would not make yourself look so ignorant.
Guardian again.
" "We have never seen religions tensions like this in the CAR before. The CAR is not a Muslim country; it is a Christian country. We have never seen so many Muslims in the country before. They have come from other countries." Like many in the CAR, he feels it is being ignored and abandoned to its fate. "International leaders should open their eyes to what is going on. "

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/22/central-african-republic-verge-of-genocide

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 04:27 AM

" tho I can't quite see all the cause of your objection to the points I made."
Mike
A last word to you - I don't think I have anything more to say than this.
I have explained my family's early involvement with the various anti- Fascist movements - that is the upbringing I received, an abhorrence to all forms of racial and religious discrimination.
In the 1960s I began to visit Manchester regularly, it almost became my second home and for four years it was my home.
Through my involvement in the Peace Movement and my interest in music I met and became very friendly with great number of Jewish people.
My first serious girlfriend came from a family of European refugee Holocaust survivors.
This was less than twenty years after the events and personal bitterness was still very much evidence in every family I met through my friends.
They told me of their experiences 'back home' and described how they had been treated by the German authorities, in particular, how they had been stereotyped as being "impure", "greedy usurers", "child sacrificers" "a threat to the German way of life and purity".....
Their lives became intolerable, not just because of their harsh treatment, but because of the pariah status that had been brought about by the filth that was claimed of them - they had been depicted as a culturally and racially 'deformed people'.
The lucky ones saw what was coming and got out in time - many millions didn't and suffered the consequences - you know all this, I am not attempting to patronise you -- just reminding Achie the Vincible of the consequences of his behaviour, which is not a million miles different to that I had described to me.
Keith has dedicated the major part of his time to depicting Muslims pretty much the same way as the Nazis depicted the Jews.
In doing so he is drawing his information from extremist racist sites, he has claimed an entire race as being culturally perverted and potential terrorists and over the years he has defended the mass murder of innocent refugees, the use of chemical weapons, starvation tactics causing the ill health and death of children.....
He is now describing the opposition to a twentieth century monster in the process of slaughtering his people as "Jihadist conflict".
He has even suggested that it was permissible to sell that monster and others like him weapons, even proposing that he should be supplied with riot control gear to enable him to fill his torture chambers with his opponents rather than having to deal with them in public.
That's the individual you have given your ninety percent plus support to.      
You want to judge religious persecution by counting bodies, I prefer to judge all persecution by the overall and long lasting effect it has by being able to control and destroy peoples existence - not just in the ending of lives but in the drip - drip - drip ruining them
This encompasses all race hatred in all its forms, whether it be Islamic fanatics slaughtering people, clerics raping children, or even young women being forbidden control of their own bodies and lives in the long run, it can all lead to the same extermination camps if left unchecked and unnoticed.
Prejudice and discrimination against Muslims has long been a feature of life in the Christian world, even taking into account the behaviour of Muslim fanatics, Islamophobia remains a major cause of persecution and suffering in the world today.
I don't understand fanatics like Keith whose blind hatred appears to come from his own mind - nothing he has ever argued has ever showed him to be an any way concerned about human beings - all his efforts have gone to supporting regimes and governments.
You have sneered at my anti-racism in the past - substituting name-calling and label-pinning for open argument.
I don't understand Keith and his hate campaigns (he appears to be turning this "Christian persecution" thread into a companion piece to his "Muslim Persecution" epic.
He has even claimed "infallibility" for the views he is circulating (no warning bells or sinister echoes?)
You appear to be happy to join him in his efforts
If I don't understand him, I can't begin to understand you.
I don't think we have anything to say to each other, do you?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 04:49 AM

Keith has dedicated the major part of his time to depicting Muslims pretty much the same way as the Nazis depicted the Jews.
In doing so he is drawing his information from extremist racist sites, he has claimed an entire race as being culturally perverted and potential terrorists and over the years he has defended the mass murder of innocent refugees, the use of chemical weapons, starvation tactics causing the ill health and death of children.....

Not one word of truth in any of that.
If I were a bad person you would not have to make up such shit about me.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 04:52 AM

One always has something to say to another human being, Jim. Isn't it a bit prescriptive and extreme to despair of any dialogue between us, just because I consider your equation of any form of persecution as being as menacing to the commonweal in its potential effects, & as being ∴ of equivalent virulence as any other, to be counter·productively & hyperbolically extreme? If two people can't agree even to that extent without all dialogue being abandoned, I think it a somewhat dangerous situation. I do not think meaningful discussion is to be predicated upon such conditions.

We may also, so far as I can see, differ in our assessments as to the strengths of Keith's arguments, and his means of prosecuting them, without the imminent onset of Apocalypse Now.(Though overworked facetiousnesses about guardian-☤s, poodles, &c, tho perhaps originally faintly amusing, might not remain perpetually helpful in this particular.)

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 06:17 AM

"Not one word of truth in any of that."
Evething I have described here has been said publicly - and can be qualified by cut-'n-pastes, if that's what you wish - I have never made anything up, I don't have to.
If you actually believe the bile that you put up, you are an unbelievably sick and (if anybody took you seriously) dangerous individuation.
If you are just invoking the suffering and hatred that your opinions invariably cause just as an attempt to gain the attention you are not obviously receiving elsewhere, judging by the time you spend posting your filth, you are an extremely disturbed and sad one.
Despite the Keith v Jim jibes I will happily continue drawing attention to your extreme ultra extremism - I will be truly saddened if Mike chooses to get in the way.
Despite our differences I bear him no ill will and hold him in respect for his past contributions to folk-song
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 06:42 AM

No such thing as a Christian country if just one Muslim or rational person lives there.

Pathetic

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 08:40 AM

" if just one Muslim or rational person lives there."
I think there are a million plus (Muslims, that is) living in Britain at the present time
Religious belief is never a problem when it a personal decision, most of our friends and neighbours believe in a god - not a 'glugger' among them.
It is the churches and the crazies who cause the dissention and bloodshed, whatever brand of soap-powder they choose to promote.
Our resident crazy here doesn't seem to want to comment on the fact that for nearly a century a large part of the U.K. has been torn apart by bloody inter-religious dissension brought about by deliberate policy introduced by the British Government - "thread-drift" no doubt.
Jim Carroll