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BS: Some people are so stupid...

Dave the Gnome 13 Apr 11 - 05:09 PM
gnu 13 Apr 11 - 05:22 PM
Rapparee 13 Apr 11 - 06:06 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 13 Apr 11 - 06:27 PM
GUEST,Mrs Olive Whatnoll 13 Apr 11 - 06:46 PM
Leadfingers 13 Apr 11 - 07:16 PM
Don Firth 13 Apr 11 - 07:17 PM
kendall 13 Apr 11 - 08:13 PM
Rapparee 13 Apr 11 - 08:50 PM
J-boy 14 Apr 11 - 01:01 AM
GUEST,Patsy 14 Apr 11 - 03:15 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 14 Apr 11 - 03:50 AM
Musket 14 Apr 11 - 04:35 AM
gnu 14 Apr 11 - 04:50 AM
GUEST,Patsy 14 Apr 11 - 05:57 AM
Richard Bridge 14 Apr 11 - 05:59 AM
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GUEST,Eliza 14 Apr 11 - 08:08 AM
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kendall 14 Apr 11 - 08:20 AM
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Subject: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 05:09 PM

I was on the bus last weekend when a couple of female chavs got on.

'D'yer stop at Salfod preeky?' one asked. The driver (East European I think )looked blank for a minute so I translated

'She is asking if you go via Salford Precinct.'

'Oh, sorry' he replied 'No - You are better with the 37. It will be along soon.'

Well, she gave us both a look that could kill.

'Fuckin wogs. Can't even talk proper...'

They both stormed off amidst fits of giggles from most people in earshot.

I was very tempted to say something but kept quiet as I guess they would not have responded well. Mind you, I know a lot of people like that. No sense of humour. Some would not know if you were taking the piss unless you inserted a catheter. With a mallet.

:D

MP


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: gnu
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 05:22 PM

Chavs are retards who think that they're rebels and also think that their local McDonalds is a 5-star restraunt.

Male chavs wear clothes and jewellry which come from a market, they have a attitude problem and smoke since the age of 11.

Female chavs wear tight trousers and when they sit down they're thongs show, have fake blonde hair as straight as an ironing board or they have the "croydon face-lift", they lost their virginity at the age of 14, they have a attitide problem and they have really really bad teeth.

Chavs also use stupid words such as "safe" or "mint" or "y'wot?" or "quali'ee" or my favourite "innit" what are they trying to say?, it's like trying to communicate with a dog.

you usually find them in your local bus stop or your local town.

... from an urban dictionary I found on Google.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 06:06 PM

Shucks, we got a whole bunch of those up at the State House in Boise....


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 06:27 PM

Gnu and Mad Polly- Chav? a new word for me.

market? you mean Walmart?


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,Mrs Olive Whatnoll
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 06:46 PM

I carn't stand them fecking chavs! Wot a stupid lot o' bleedin' knownuffin's they are! Vicky Pollard is a fecking chav of the worst sort. 'As anyone 'eard 'ow she goes on? I 'ave. I fink the Queen must get roight bloody well sick and tired of all this sub'uman ghetto trash loiterin' about in the streets and givin' England a bad name in the world. Sodding degenerates, the lot of them! Their kind ought to be incarcerited is wot I say. For fecking life! I will vote for any politician wot promises to get tough on crime and give criminals and delinquents and troublesome foreigners and such the maximum sentence. Why are we not sendin' these scum off to the penal camps in Australia loik we used to???

- Olive Whatnoll


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Leadfingers
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 07:16 PM

Q - A Market in UK is a collection of Cut price traders who would generally make Walmart look REALLY Up market !! Usually small stall in an open area in a Town Centre


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 07:17 PM

Some years back I remember hearing some ignoramus in a coffee shop going on and on about how there ought to be a law passed limiting the English language to no more than 350 words.

He was actually serious!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: kendall
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 08:13 PM

Mediocrity know nothing higher than itself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Apr 11 - 08:50 PM

Kendall, some mediocrity doesn't even reach that high.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: J-boy
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 01:01 AM

Stupid people aren't the problem. Assholes(politicians and capitalists,mostly) who make use of them to service their own needs deserve most of the blame. Sorry if I sound a bit Marxist but from what I've seen it's all too true.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 03:15 AM

Gnu, ditto almost everything you said. It seems that we all have towns like that near us. I presume you mean open town markets with stalls selling counterfeit clothes, tatty t-shirts, chunky jewellery, dodgy food, dodgy watches and electrical goods. Some of the ones in market towns like Salisbury or Hay on Wye are a little bit better but I know what you mean.

But I don't see a solution to chavs when their inspiration are the biggest chavs of all Katie Price and N-Dubz, their lifestyles are another world to me so I just ignore it now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 03:50 AM

When I first to the North West (of England) around 40 years ago the old covered markets (like Stockport, for example) used to be fun. They were a bit scruffy and full of character and characters - and there was a sense of history about them. There was also, at least the possibility, of obtaining a bargain. Now they've been tarted up and they're just dull, dull, dull, dull! They're also full of cheap Chinese tat that's not worth buying.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Musket
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 04:35 AM

Oscar Wilde pointed out that we are all lying in the gutter, only some of us are looking up at the stars.

Speaking to many people whom some would dismiss as chavs, you will find that aspirations are low, expectations even lower.

I wonder if those pointing out the issues could point towards the solution?

When I worked down the pit, many of us had two languages. That which we spoke at work and that which we spoke at home. The main difference being that at work, most nouns were preceded by an adjective. Normally beginning with the letter F. I'm not sure the vocabulary was shortened, and neither was the inherent intellect. I'm sure the armchair psychologists can tell me why that was, but I reckon it was about tribal belonging. Much the same as the chavs as they are referred to?


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: gnu
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 04:50 AM

Q, Patsy... I cut and pasted - "... from an urban dictionary I found on Google." I had no idea what the word meant.

You're welcome.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 05:57 AM

However I have experienced in particular at our local Mall shopping area where I live the behaviour of some people who do point a finger and sneer at 'chavs' loud enough to be overheard, that makes me feel more uncomfortable.

I might be mistaken but I think chavvy/chavi might also be a Romany meaning for girl child.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 05:59 AM

I object to the word "retard" as a term of abuse.

I don't object to the flashing of thongs (unless the relevant area is in itself unsightly).

I don't object to other people losing their virginity at the age of 14 - I wish I had lost mine at that age (ah those wasted few years...)!

And I don't promulgate different behavioural rules for the different genders.

I do object to the sort of ignorance and offensiveness described by the OP.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 08:04 AM

Unhappy meal for drinker


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 08:08 AM

A Chav habit I deplore is this ghastly desire to expose ones very pregnant abdomen, complete with distended navel, between a crop-top and a low-slung pair of jeans. I've even seen a navel-piercing proudly displayed on top of the bump like a cherry on a cake. My friend Ronda made me giggle, as she described recently a pregnant lassie so attired walking past Ronda's table in a coffee shop. The first thing she noticed was a profuse bush of ginger pubic hair passing in front of her nose. It rather put her off her scone.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 08:10 AM

That kind of stuff is no more and no less typical of people who get labelled "chavs" think it is of any other category in society. The accent involved and the clothes worn might differ, but the offensiveness lies in the attitude involved, and that can crop up- anywhere.

Not too far from that involved in the term "retards", for that matter. Or in the way many people throw around the termm"chavs".


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: kendall
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 08:20 AM

Jacqui and I were driving along on the main road when a nut on a motorcycle came up on our right, ignored a yield sign and tried to bully his way in front of us. He was right alongside when I blew my horn and he backed off and gave me the finger! I wonder who the hell he thought he was.
Naturally, I gave him the finger and hoped he would follow me and we could stop and discuss our differences but he pulled a left and was gone.
Can you imagine a motorcycle trying to argue with a van? It's beyond stupid.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Mrrzy
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 08:46 AM

Do we live in a mediocracy?


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 11:53 AM

Kendall, I'm trying to visualize the scene: the motorcycle guy came up on your right- but then turned left and was gone? Doesn't that mean he turned in front of you?

Too early in the morning for me- as yet I have had only three sips of coffee.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 12:17 PM

"Can you imagine a motorcycle trying to argue with a van?"

I can remember more than one push bike trying to argue with the seven and a half tonner I was driving!


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 12:32 PM

Ah Dave but they have moral right on their side, since they are saving the planet by pushing pedals.

And no, McGrath, "retards" have no option but to be mentally what they are. Chavs could learn to behave and speak properly if they so chose.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 12:57 PM

The trouble is, they believe that this 'moral right' supercedes the Highway Code. Usually they were objecting to me taking action to avoid actually killing them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 01:16 PM

You were quite right in your analysis of the meaning of the OP, Mr Bridge.

Funny thing is I wasn't going to use 'chav' at all. Around these parts they are more commonly 'Scallies'. A Rose by any other and all that. It is indeed the attitude, and stupidity, of some people that I am astounded at. Not just the girls in question either. The more I read in some quarters the more I despair as well ;-)

MP


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 01:31 PM

I can't see why people who would be embarrassed to describe others as "common" when insulting them feel it OK to call throw around the label "chavs" with the same intent.

How people speak and dress varies. There's also a lot of variation in whether they are unpleasant people. But there is no particular connection between those two things.

What's the term for people who aren't "chavs" anyway?


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 01:41 PM

Wikipedia, the 'chav' answer to Encyclopaedia Britannica and OED, and thus an authority on chavs, has a long entry with many references.
Innit, Chav is defined "as a stereotype of certain people in the United Kingdom. Also known as a charver in Yorkshire and NE England "chavs" are said to be agressive teenagers, of working class background, who repeatedly engage in anti-social behaviour such as street drinking, drug abuse and rowdiness, or other forms of juvenile delinquency." (Alison Smith, BBC News)

Posts here suggest that the term has been extended to older humans than teenagers, or to anyone who is obnoxious and perceived as a lower form of humanity.

(Canadian, trying to understand English english as it is spoken there - and apologies to the Wikipedia contributors but I couldn't resist my little demon)


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: maple_leaf_boy
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 01:50 PM

Richard, Gnu's post was a quote from Urban dictionary. Anybody can add an entry to it, and they don't always use appropriate vocabulary or subjects. There are often entries that would never be recognized in a real dictionary or encylopedia.

By some of the definitions provided, it sounds like they would also be
called "neds". A term that's also used in the U.K.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: goatfell
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 01:54 PM

her in Scotland they are called NEDS and they too are stupid as well


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 02:53 PM

When this subject is discussed in the UK I can't help noticing that it ALWAYS descends into a debate (OK - slanging match) about social class. Those on the political Right look down on chavs because they consider them to be socially inferior. Those on the Left immediately jump to the defence of chavs because they consider them to be members of the hallowed 'working class'; in spite of the fact that the majority of people on the Left, these days, are usually fairly comfortably off members of the middle class. Actual chavs couldn't give a flying f*ck because they choose to know nothing about politics and never, ever vote. And that is the real problem with chavs: their wilful ignorance. Unfortunately we now live in a society in which it is fashionable, among a significant percentage of the population, to present oneself as stupid, ignorant and anti-social. Some of these people (although by no means all) are disadvantaged - but that is not sufficient reason to defend the stance that they have chosen to take. If people on the Left were really striving towards a truly progressive society they would be challenging wilful stupidity - not defending it!


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 03:01 PM

I'm wondering if the dreaded word 'taste' comes into the definition of chav behaviour, speech and appearance. While admitting that no-one has the right to decide what is or isn't 'in good taste', I think we all generally have a rough idea of tasteful/tasteless. This sounds terribly snobbish, but when someone/something is described as 'tacky' we all know what is meant. Society itself seems to influence these standards of public behaviour, not individuals, and interestingly, they are changing and evolving all the time. 'Tacky' now could be 'desirable' in a decade or less. Even Estuary English is becoming quite the thing!


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: gnu
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 03:08 PM

Estuary English... is that a Fallopian language?

Yeah, it IS a long reach. Sue me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Lox
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 03:12 PM

The term Chav is just another dehumanizing pigeonhole with which to generalize about disenfranchised sections of society in a way that allows them to become easy scapegoats for the problems of others.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Penny S.
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 03:34 PM

I do think the opinions about markets are off. Now that greengrocers are thin on the ground, they're a good place to get fresh fruit and veg, though no tin small quantities. There are also stalls which sell branded cosmetic goods at a discount. Ours had, until recently, a good stall for electrical goods. There's a good plants stall, and a fish stall supplied from port. It depends what you're looking for. There is tat, but other stuff as well.

Not easy to use them if you are working, because of the opening hours, but on the traditional stalls, you're dealing with people who know their stuff, and who, as one stall advertises, will be there next week.

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 03:48 PM

The term Chav is just another dehumanizing pigeonhole...

Was that a serious post, Lox, or are you taking the mickey? It's difficult to tell on here sometimes! Very funny if it was tongue in cheek but just in case you are serious...

While I agree that there are occasions on which that statement would be right - Anyone of any authority using it for instance, I am afraid you are WAY off the mark in this case. I have already explained that I need not have used the term 'chav'. Scally would have done. Pillock probably would have been better. But at the end of the day we are talking semantics. It's just a word to describe, generaly, anti-social and loud-mouthed people who, while not quite criminal, are bordering on it. If I did not get that across in the opening post then I apologise for my lack of lucidity.

On the other hand I could just agree with Shimrod - and I do . To hell with not being allowed to use the words I want to because they are not PC. If I want to have a gay old time sucking on my black shag who is to stop me? :-)

MP.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 03:57 PM

Gnu observed (and I have to assume he's accurate) that

Chavs also use stupid words such as "safe" or "mint" and so on.

I'm just wondering, what's the matter with the word "safe"?

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 03:58 PM

"The term Chav is just another dehumanizing pigeonhole with which to generalize about disenfranchised sections of society in a way that allows them to become easy scapegoats for the problems of others."

If they don't vote they've 'disenfranchised' themselves, surely?!

I came from a working class background - as did many of my friends. The difference between me and my social circle and chavs is that we chose education and responsibility while they choose wilful ignorance and anti-social behaviour. I bet many of them disrupted lessons while they were at school and bullied those who wanted to learn.

I fervently believe that we need much more social mobility in our society but we're not going to achieve that by wringing our hands over people who make no effort to help themselves.

If these people are really dehumanised and disenfranchised they should be at the barricades like many of their brave ancestors. But they really can't be 'bovvered', can they?


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 03:59 PM

Penny, yes! We love our markets here in Norwich and Norfolk. There's a huge variety of goods on sale, one can browse for ages and get a bargain. Some of us are not well-off enough to be able to get things from the big chain stores. I also love the little craft stalls, good for finding a gift. The stallholders have often been there for donkeys' years, and everyone knows them and can have a chat.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 04:02 PM

BTW - I have just got back from the Gym (yes I know shouldn't but the doctor said it could help with the re-hab...) and while bored on the treadmill was amazed to see a big shiny new Mercedes pull into a disabled spot and 3 very fit looking young men get out to go and play football in the sports hall. On leaving I double checked that there was no disabled sticker. There wasn't. So I went back in to inform the receptionist and she said 'Oh, it's OK. Not many disabled people come at this time of night.' I wonder why that is, thought I, but decided that if I said anything it would probably be lost anyway. You can't make this stuff up can you!

Maybe they weren't chavs but the attitude was the same. Stuff everyone else. The only ones worse are the female of the species in their Chelsea tractors picking up little Chardonnay (yer lickle bleedor) from school...

MP.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: gnu
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 04:12 PM

MP... you could have left a note on the Merc... you had your car keys with you, no?


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 04:13 PM

Poor Jade Goody, she was an example of unbelievable ignorance. She thought 'East Angular' was 'abroad', and that Rio de Janeiro was a person. No-one would suggest she was not a good lass, and I was so sorry when she died of cancer at such a young age. But how could a woman who had the benefit of full-time State education be so woefully ignorant?


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: leeneia
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 04:14 PM

Let's go back and analyze the first post, step by step.
============
'D'yer stop at Salfod preeky?' one asked.

Here's a person who has made the simple error of prouncing the c in 'precinct' as if it had a hard c rather than a soft c.

Why might a person do that?

1. Never heard it pronounced and is sounding it out wrong.

2. Is deaf or partially so.

3. Is autistic or similar.

4. Learned the pronunciation from someone else with similar problems.

None of this qualifies a person as stupid.
================

The driver (East European I think )looked blank for a minute so I translated

'She is asking if you go via Salford Precinct.'

This violates one of the basic rules of politeness in our culture. We don't speak of a person who is present in the third person. Not unless we are teasing or the person is a baby.

I'd give you odds of 9 to 1 that 'She is asking if you go via Salford Precinct' was spoken in an openly contemptuous tone.
============

'Oh, sorry' he replied 'No - You are better with the 37. It will be along soon.'

Well, she gave us both a look that could kill.

'Fuckin wogs. Can't even talk proper...'

They both stormed off amidst fits of giggles from most people in earshot.
============
I bet the giggles weren't giggles at all. They were sneers and sniggers. And I bet they preceded the exit. But I also bet they didn't come from most people. Just a few.   

And then the 'chavs' responded with the first rude things that came to mind.

I'm not surprised.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 04:48 PM

But how could a woman who had the benefit of full-time State education be so woefully ignorant?

I've heard blunders virtually as a daft as that on University Challenge - maybe it's a generational thing, great gaps of ignorance even in people who are pretty highly educated and intelligent.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 04:58 PM

Rapparee: "Shucks, we got a whole bunch of those up at the State House in Boise...."

What is even stupider, is the crooked lying politicians in Washington!..the only thing more stupider than them, is the fools and moronic clowns that believe their lies!!!...and get this!....even fight with each other, based on their deceptions!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Both parties!!!
I think the obviousness is over the top, by now!
GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 05:22 PM

I'd give you odds of 9 to 1 that 'She is asking if you go via Salford Precinct' was spoken in an openly contemptuous tone.

I'll have a couple of grand on that. When do I collect my £18K? :-)

Now, I am not going to argue so I will just point the major flaw in the analysis.

I was there. You was not. Any attempt to analyse the event based on pure supposition is, I'm afraid, doomed to failure.

Now, in the spirit of friendship and understanding, I am happy to let anyone know that I have lived, worked, loved and played in Salford for almost 60 years. I know it's people. I know it's places. I know the majority of both are good. No, better than that, excelent. I also know it's flaws and will readily admit them. Including the vocal minority of anti-socialites. Now, can you explain on what basis your suppositions are made? Do you live in Salford? Do you know it's people? Were you on that bus? I realy do want to know.

Cheers

MP.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 05:24 PM

Oh - just out of interest - Solfod (note there is no 'r') preeky is the local accent. She had no speech impediment or learning difficulty. We all speak like that - Ever see Terry Christi'o'n (yes pronounced with an 'o') on the box? Someone who's first language is not English would be genuinely bemused. It has happend for years - Railway staff were once given an example of an elderly lancashire miner asking for a ticket. 'A munanadug t'ert bongs and bibluddyandy surry.' I know what he means. Would you? :-)

MP


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 05:32 PM

Damn - I knew I would forget something. Leeneia, rather than turn the thread into a confrontation which was never intended would you please PM me if you would like to continue. Thanks

MP.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 06:25 PM

For what it's worth, I worked in Salford for 15 years. The people I worked with were great - very warm-hearted and funny. Some of them had turned swearing into an art form - but none of them were chavs - they were mainly people from working class stock (like me) who had taken the trouble to get themselves a decent education. I've got absolutely nothing against Salford or Salfordians and I imagine the ratio of decent people to anti-social, wilful idiots is about the same as anywhere else.

And yes, I was probably a bit harsh re. my comments on markets - but I still think they're a bit dull these days. Unless, of course. you're prepared to spend £100 on a 100 grams of free-range, organic, teak and frangipani smoked Parma Ham with crushed Javanese peppercorns at a 'Farmers' Market'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Lox
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 07:01 PM

Oh well, now that we've established how "they" behave (all of them) and we are clear about "their" attitude (identical in every case - because they aren't individuals with their own thoughts) and understand their motivation (uniform - homogenous - without merit or meaning) we can easily conclude that "they" bring it on themselves.

I'm very pleased that somebody enjoys a spot of black Shag.

I like Black Coffee.

What relevance does that have to Chavs?


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: gnu
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 07:12 PM

"...great gaps of ignorance even in people who are pretty highly educated and intelligent."

I take umbrage sir! I come by those gaps not of my own doing but simply because I am ignorant in their regard. Perhaps I am remiss in same because I was too busy becoming highly educated. As for intelligent, that came with birth and I had nothing to do with such.

As for all who judge others in their perception of rudeness, be it in regard to station or otherwise, it matters not... rude people are assholes and they have no excuse.

Oh... BTW... "great gaps of ignorance" would actually mean the lack of ignorance... but, I am a highly educated and intelligent person and was actually able to understand the clause as, I believe, was intended. Either that or the fact that I am celebrating a most joyful occasion with drink has caused me to to misinterpret the vague logic intended, whereby I must offer apologies and resign myself to "fuckit mode" and consign all of youse who care to bicker over fuckall to the round file.

Jump up and wave your arms furiously. Just don't hit each other. Have fun with it.... chav it up eh?.... gnightgnu


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 07:30 PM

Do enjoy a nice debate, Lox. And hope that while you are displaying erudition or your prolier than thou chip on your shoulder you don't meet any chavs who might take umbrage at joined up thinking.

Or do you think that there is some excuse for deliberately choosing to remain ignorant and to assault those who choose to learn?

Acting as those rightly pilloried by the OP is a matter of choice. It is a choice that deserves vilification. It is the choice that disenfranchises those who might choose to learn at school, rather than disrupt lessons. It is the choice that enfranchises certain "political parties". It is the choice that makes "philosopher" a term of abuse in the UK. It is not a choice that deserves defence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Lox
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 07:41 PM

Where Richard did i excuse the people who behaved rudely in the OP's story?

Nowhere.

I wrote specifically about the term "chav".

Do you think what I have saaid about that term is mistaken and if so - how?


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Lox
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 07:48 PM

chav (tʃæv)

— n
        informal , derogatory ( Southern English ) a young working-class person whose tastes, although sometimes expensive, are considered vulgar by some


The collins dictionary defines Chav as

"a young working class person who dresses in casual sports clothing".



hmmmm .... not very enlightening on the subject of behaviour ...


But, as with many words, it all depends on who is saying it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Lox
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 08:04 PM

"And hope that while you are displaying erudition or your prolier than thou chip on your shoulder you don't meet any chavs who might take umbrage at joined up thinking."

Indeed, and I hope that one day you will take the time to look up "socialism" and "class struggle".

I don't claim to be a socialist, but then you don't claim to be a hypocrite.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 09:21 PM

"Chav THIS!

- Chongo


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 01:30 AM

'Some people are so stupid...'

Yes. They are.

But you know what, it's not those whom society has labelled The Chavs, but those who feel so superior to them, who have no idea what their lives have been like, what paths have led them to be so angry, so disconnected from society, at such a young age.

I too, along with so many others get exasperated by bad behaviour, rude attitudes and total disregard for others, but I also understand the reasons behind it, and no matter how exasperated I feel about 'chavvy' behaviour I feel FAR more exasperated with so many others, who seemingly regard themselves as socially, educationally and emotionally superior to those whom they regard as lower than scum.

Jamie Oliver is one man who's trying to make people see all the Lost Jewels that school is spitting out of The System, who may well end up with criminal records, drugs, alcohol or worse, as their horizons. His 'Dream School' programme took some of the most damaged Jewels, trying to turn that love of learning back on again. The link to the final episode of it is below.

What came across was how the 'celebrity' teachers he chose to teach them knew so little about the lives of these young people. What also came across was the quick minds, the intelligence and the terrible hurt, pain and anger that this group of children have inside them.
Eventually, the teachers and the kids met somewhere in the middle, each side respecting the other, finally learning to understand the other's point of view. The youngsters had a great deal to teach the teachers.

Yes, the kids drove those teachers almost to the point of breakdown at times, but Jamie refused to let folks give up. He'd been those children you see....he'd been 'the chav', as some would call him here...but he was lucky, he came from a loving family and so, despite his ADHD, his severe dyslexia, his being told what a failure he'd be, at school, his family continued to believe in him. His father taught him how to run a restaurant, how to cook, how to be disciplined and work hard...and the rest, as they say, is history.

The headmaster during this programme was also, once upon a time, that problem child, so used to being told he'd never make anything of his life, that he'd come to believe it and *became* the child he felt his teachers saw. And then one day ONE teacher turned his life around by **BELIEVING** in him..and from that moment on, ALL he wanted to be was a teacher himself, to turn the lives of others around in exactly the same way. At times, even he was driven to tears with all that surrounded him, but he and Jamie between them, got nearly all those youngsters through to a better place, a far better place...

He ends this series saying that the one thing he's learnt from this is that everyone has got something to offer, and there HAS to be something so wrong with a system that is spitting out so many children with 'FAILURE' stamped inside their heads...

Of course it is not all the fault of schools, because so often terrible damage is already in place inside the souls of so many young children before they even start school. Unwanted, unloved, they learn early on to grab what attention they can by acting up, being a nuisance..Their anger takes root in tiny minds, distorting them so much.

ALL they long to be is loved. Is that too much for anyone to ask?

Richard speaks above of both sexes being allowed to act the same, but I disagree with that a great deal.

The Death of Motherhood has caused so much damage in our children. The Death of Femininity has added to that. Girls are encouraged to behave like lager louts, when the lager louts themselves are also so often broken people. Why would any society not help those who are broken? Why would they encourage their women to behave just like them? Men and women are different, for different reasons. We seem to want to breed gentleness out of women these days, and I truly don't understand that.

Children need parents, mothers AND fathers. If you don't have a loving home, no matter who raises you, then life starts off so very harsh and hard.

So if all The Lost Boys & Girls have ganged together in Neverland UK, becoming their own tribe with their own rules, their own dress code and language, is it really that surprising? They have become their own extended family, because there is no-one else there for them, more often than not.

What is so surprising is there are now several generations of Lost Boys & Girls, whole families of Peter Pan kids, who don't know what it's like to be loved, who therefore cannot love anyone else, let alone themselves....and all society wants to do is to continue to spit on them even more, rather than find the solutions or face up to the fact that something is so very, very wrong within that society.

Here is Jamie's programme:

Jamie's Dream School - Final Episode (available for the next 28 days)


Jamie knows something is going so so wrong at school.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 03:11 AM

I agree with a point Eliza made a bit earlier about how could society produce the views and intellect of the late Jade Goody when we claim to have an education system?

However, although on this thread I find myself agreeing with M'unlearned friend on a few of his points, I can't accept his idea that this is about choice. You are the net result of your experience and role models.

When I found myself having to influence and debate with people from other parts of the country, I found it a good practical idea to try and lose the South Yorkshire clipped dialect. My intellect hadn't changed, (I may not be the best judge of my intellect!) just the delivery.

Don't confuse language with attitude or choice.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 03:16 AM

The Jeremy Kyle show comes to mind. He has made a living out of bringing chavviness issues to our homes and the program suggests that they spend their most of their time waiting for DNA results of offspring. If the general public sees programs like this the prejudice is going to remain. It's not something I tune into on a regular basis but stumbled upon if I have had to stay at home off sick from work, thankfully not too often!!

Surprisingly the so called chavs I've come across are equally into designer clothes and the latest computers games and suchlike and because of the circumstances need to have a 'streetwise' appearance or else be trampled on depending on the area they are in. Piercings are not just a chav thing I have known many middle-class hippies to have the odd piercing or two plus tattoos but people seem to accept that and call that bohemian.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 04:43 AM

I have not conflated accent with intelligence. I do have an impression of correlation between intelligence and vocabulary.

I am not seeking to oppress the working class.

I am all for enabling and assisting anyone who wants to learn - and quite happy to condemn those who won't (as distinct from "can't").

Those who can't need support and assistance.

Plenty of people have done well by setting out to improve.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 04:49 AM

"Indeed, and I hope that one day you will take the time to look up "socialism" and "class struggle"."

But surely, Lox, chavism (wilful stupidity and ignorance) IMPEDES the class struggle? Shouldn't they all be in their public libraries reading Marx and Engels?


Well they could be in their public libraries reading Marx and Engels if Labour councils hadn't dumbed public libraries down and filled them full of DVDs ... and the Coalition government hadn't forced Labour Councils to make a choice between paying their chief executives enormous salaries or closing their public libraries ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Penny S.
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 05:00 AM

I suspect that those who "won't" learn have been finagled into that position.
They may have had little choice in getting where they have arrived.
Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 05:51 AM

Exactly, Penny.

I believe, as do others, that those who 'won't' learn are being taught by those who also 'won't' learn. Teachers who refuse to accept that we all learn in different ways, and some of us, if we have NO interest in a particular subject will simply switch our minds off. There are many children out there who only want to learn what they are interested in.
I have no recall of subjects I was 'taught' which did not interest me one iota. A complete and utter waste of my time and of the teachers too.

The young man on Jamie's film who turned out to be a natural poet, astounding not only his teacher, but himself. The angry young woman who found her naturally argumentative nature would stand her in good stead, if she decided to become a politician, encouraged to see herself thus by Alistair Campbell. Conor, the quick thinking wizard, always one step ahead of his teachers, being told how he'd make a great stand-up comedian. The young lad with 3 older brothers, all of whom were in trouble with the law, discovering he had a natural abillity for mathematics. This ability was turned off very early on when he'd stayed behind to ask his teacher some questions, only to be told the lesson had ended....and so did his interest. But it was re-ignited not only in those maths lessons he got on the progamme, but by Alvin Hall (the teacher) recognising a natural numerical ability, and HIM staying behind to give this young lad the benefit of one to one teaching.

The young people whom Ellen MacArthur took sailing. Ellen spoke to them on the same level she spoke to everyone else, one of friendliness and intelligence, and OH, how WELL they responded..and how proud they were to have pitted themselves against the elements, felt danger, and won!

Rolf Harris, who could see the natural artists behind the troubled faces and minds and who went on to encourage, praise, encourage and praise again, despite feeling at such a loss at the start, with all the talkback-backchat he was given...

Little by little these people won the oh so damaged trust of the young people they were trying so hard to help.

Conor, who saw through Cherie Blair immediately, asking her why she no longer had her Liverpudlian accent..and whose expression spoke volumes, when she said that on going to University she'd just 'naturally' picked up the accent of those around her...

There is none so blind as those who will not see, and sadly, in many cases our Education System and our Society in general, is filled with them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 05:56 AM

Lizzie, you were a waste of an education.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 06:04 AM

Thank you, Richard.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 06:41 AM

I really don't think that the British Left have done anyone any favours by characterising large swathes of the population as helpless victims.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Penny S.
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 07:43 AM

Interesting about Cherie Blair. Someone did some work on accents and who loses them and who doesn't. Dominant characters don't. Subordinate personalities do the fitting in thing unconsciously. As I do. And I reely reely need to get rid of that estury rubbish. Though I'm not sure what I would like to get instead. I can't find a voice model for Sussex anywhere. Including Sussex.

Back to Blair - I suppose she may have thought she did need to have a court accent, but if she acquired it without intending to, that speaks of lack of self esteem. As does the use of woo advisers, crystals etc. Wonder what it says about the blessed Tony.

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Lox
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 08:43 AM

"Plenty of people have done well by setting out to improve. "

I see.

But you know that "chavs" don't do this.


Richard, your comments are elitist, ignorant and patronizing.


I've taught at a 'Chav' School.


Everyone knew it was a "chav" school.


Cos thats where "chav" kids were dumped and forgotten.


I suspect that your inability to communicate with those whom you perceive to be "chavs" has a lot more to do with your preconceptions and your egotism than with their alleged disinterest in your gracious intellectual benificence.


Fortunately for me, I didn't have those problems. I'm realistic ... I'm an outsider ... but there isn't a human being a live that I haven't managed to get through to with my smile and my eyes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 09:23 AM

Good for you, Lox. I'm proud of you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: goatfell
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 09:49 AM

if they want respect then they must show repect. it's their problem not ours


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 11:08 AM

Lox, it's self determining. If they're still chavs, they have not improved. In the vast preponderance of cases it's because they have not bothered. Goths and metallers on the other hand seem to have some interest in intellectual stimulation - and you should hear their views on chavs.

I don't usually have any problem with real chavi. They do (largely - well those who I have met) seem to have a different world of a different set of learning, although there are both male and female travellers who are chavs instead.

When I was doing a lot of debating at university we used to debate at least once a term with a local society - affiliated to a Working Men's Institute or something like that. There was a coterie of their leading members who had acquired a considerable breadth of reading and learning in the 20s and 30s. There was no work but they had gone into the public libraries and educated themselves and many of them were better informed on the philosophers read in that period that we university students were. You don't catch a chav doing that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,working class non-chav
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 11:46 AM

with reference to some of the class discussion going on above, chav's round my way are generally reviled by the working classes. On seeing groups of goldy chained tracksuited youths the cry of working class blokes will be 'get a job you lazy fuckers'. Chav's are more typically a non-working youth sub-set of the working class, whose culture has little remaining links to more traditional working-class groups or their cultural values, their lifestyles are more typically drug focused than that of the working class. I blame maggie thatcher - tongue not quite in cheek..


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 11:59 AM

The trouble with a label like "chav" is that in practice it gets applied not on the basis of behaviour and attitude, but increasingly on the basis of dress and appearance. And yet the contempt which can be reasonable enough when prompted by behaviour and attitude is carried over and loaded upon people who do not in any way deserve it.

It's rather like when Americans talk about "trailer trash".


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 12:05 PM

Then there are these....
..God only knows, there's a bunch on here!!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 12:53 PM

OK. May I set the record straight. I have no issue with class and never have had. My Dad is a Polish immigrant who worked as a painter and decorator and, when he couldn't, worked in factories or down the pit. My Mum was a shopgirl who was swept off her feet by the handsome young foreigner and raised a family of three, of whom I am the eldest. I went to a sec. mod. until I was 16 and then to grammar school when it was found I had more than half a brain. But I could not hack it and left three months later for a job on the local council. Apart from odd times between contracts I have always worked and, should anyone want a category, you can say firmly working class.

I now would like to say that the whole point of the story, very markedly missed by some, was that the girls may not have been stupid or common. Their accent was my own accent. The irony is that someone who cannot make themselves understood to a high number of their own countrymen then complains that a foreigner, who can probably speak English better than they can, is 'A fuckin wog' and 'can't talk proper'. Now, they may have understood the irony themselves, in which case I am indeed the fool, but somehow I doubt it.

The thread title appears to be self fulfilling in some cases here so hows about we call it a day and just say that it was my fault that it all went pear shaped because I felt the need to tell a story. Very badly apparantly. Now, if anyone has anything pertinent to add please feel free to do so. And would those who would make excuses for loutish behavior and bad language please fuck off. :-)

MP


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 01:00 PM

14 Apr 11 - 11:53 AM

Kendall, I'm trying to visualize the scene: the motorcycle guy came up on your right- but then turned left and was gone? Doesn't that mean he turned in front of you?"


Well, with the assistance of another Mudcatter, I see it now, Kendall. It was all there. (Note to self: Read with brain engaged.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 01:10 PM

mp, i suspect you may be reeling from the results of thread drift. Your op was amusing and inofensive.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,Don McBride
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 01:47 PM

You're all wrong! All of youse. Give it up, eh?

- Don


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Lox
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 02:29 PM

Yes - I've noticed how working class snobs are quick to distinguish themselves as non chavs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 04:17 PM

I am indeed, oh anonymous but wise Guest. I wish some of these poeple would get a life that doesn't involve trying to make themselves holier than thou. Anyway, lets ignore them and get on with laughing at idiots. Be they chavs, upper class tits, liberal wets or aging hippies:-)

BTW - Shimrod - whereabouts in god's own city did you serve your sentance? I was born and brought up in Swinton but now hail from Irlams o' th' Heights. Which, apart from Westward Ho! may have the oddest punctuation in the land:-)

Cheers

MP


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 05:19 PM

BTW - Mrs Whatnoll - My greatest apologies. I somehow missed your earlier post. Incisive and informative as ever. How are you? Not seen you around these parts for ages. I would only add that, as well as criminals and delinquents and troublesome foreigners, we should send scousers and Man United fans to the colonies as well.

All my love to you and yours.

MP


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: J-boy
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 01:12 AM

Do chavs still wear Burberry? Here in the good old USA they wear Abercrombie. Hoodies prevail as well. The fashion is seemingly universal. I'm reminded of droogs who were always dressed in the height of fashion. A Clockwork Orange isn't science fiction anymore.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 04:56 AM

Hi MP,

I laboured mightily in Ordsall - a place now utterly transformed from a smelly brick shit heap to a gleaming glass and steel, utterly lifeless shit heap!

One lunchtime I remember finding a patch of wild orchids by the Ship Canal. They've now been replaced by gleaming glass and steel office blocks - which were, last time I looked, 'To Let'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 05:20 AM

You just wouldn't believe it now, Shimrod - Check out 'Media City' when you get chance. I worked in the Quays for a while and it is indeed soulless :-( As I said earlier, I can see the good and wonderful in my City but also the flaws. The main one being that there is no city centre any more. They are trying to turn the old docks into one but failing miserably.

I'm not sure if my Dad lives in Ordsall or Weaste - It's just behind Stowells spire - Although that may have still been a church if the M602 wasn't built when you were here. I worry about him and what would happen if any of these idiots had a go at him. His Polish accent is still very pronounced and he suffers from bouts of dementia. Still, on the plus side, if the scallies were to call him a 'fuckin wog' and have a go at him there would be plenty of people to provide them tea and sympathy for the tough lives they must have had... :-)

MP


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Lox
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 05:24 AM

A pretty reliable rule of thumb is that those with no money dress up, while those with a lot dress down.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 05:48 AM

I live in Chorlton, MP, where I have lived since 1972. It's now super-trendy of course - but that's not my fault (honest!).

I had to take the tram to Salford Royal Hospital (Eccles) recently and it went through the Dockland area. I just about held onto my soul which was nearly sucked out of me! The whole place is so lacking in soul I reckon that it tries to steal the souls of others.

I hope that your Dad is OK.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 06:14 AM

If we substituted the word 'paki' for the word 'chav', then hurled around the same insults and non-existant scenes, would that be considered as OK?

Are folks assuming that ALL 'chavs' would behave in the same way? That ALL are violent? That all are rude, obnoxious?

When I see gangs of kids here in Torquay, and there are many such gangs, I smile at them. 9 times out of 10 most of them smile back, you know.

Perhaps folks on here should try it. Don't wait for them to smile first, because more often than not, they won't. They've already been messed up by this harsh world, at such an early age.

Try holding out your hand to them, smiling at them first, right into their eyes, a warm, genuine smile, and see what might happen.

Round here I pick up the rubbish that so many just throw away, but it's not just the young people who do it, it's the older ones too. If I see any young people when I'm doing my daily round, looking at me strangely, I merely say "Isn't it awful what some people do, when we all should have the right to walk on clean streets"...and that's all I say. I keep my feelings of being REALLY pissed off about it inside. Sometimes, they even thank me for doing it.

Young people aren't 'the enemy', but many of them feel very left out, very separated from society. That breeds anger and resentment, which spills out into bad behaviour. We have failed as a society in this country because our children have been separated from their parents so early on in life. Many parents choose to do this, because mothers feel having a child is only part of their life. Many parents have no choice but to have both parents out working, because they cannot afford to live otherwise. That is now happening more and more.

Of course, Governments and Corporate Bastards jumped on the Mothers Working bandwagon, because two lots of taxes suddenly appeared, two lots of salaries to be spent on things that don't matter, but apparently HAVE to be had in order to prove you're a successful human being.

Meanwhile, the children get farmed out to Child Minders, Pre-School Learning Alliances and Before and After School Clubs. It's made even worse nowadays because no longer can helpers hug a distressed child, as we used to in our playgroup, treating every child like our own, kissing away the tears...

So many children no longer know what it is to be loved. And if they are fumingly angry, without even knowing why, who can blame them?

Adults have a great deal to answer for.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 06:51 AM

I like Chorlton - If we were moving elsewhere in Manchester it would be first choice.

And, like I said before to those who excuse loutish behavior and bad language. Fuck Off.

MP.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 06:56 AM

Well said Lizzie! Your neighbourhood is truly blessed to have you as a resident. As a teacher many years ago, I was often given the 'naughty ones' and 'difficult' children as I seemed to be able help them to settle and make progress, with firmness and fairness. We had fun too. But I always silently in my heart called them 'The Unloved', because usually that is what they were. They didn't have the stable, loving and caring parents that the 'better' ones did. And, as you say, many were seething with anger inside, or (worse) filled with an apathetic despair. I could see it all, but of course I was limited in what I could do for them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: goatfell
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 07:20 AM

i don't work and I am not a ned (chav) like many other people who can't work


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 07:25 AM

I don't know about 'blessed', Eliza, but thank you for the kind thoughts. It can get you down at times. It's tough here, harsh and brutal in many places. I'm lucky, I was raised in an entirely different place, spiritually..in a different time too. So many of these children have known nothing else though, than the unforgiving streets of this place. Social Services are kept so busy here in Torquay. Many, many young Mums, children begetting other children.
You can see the loss of hope in their young faces already.

Torquay took on many 'problem' families back in the 70s, so I've been told by many folks here..The council got money to take them in from up country, Newcastle and Liverpool in particular...so they jumped on the bandwagon, taking as many as they could, not to care for them, but for the money involved.

Add to that a Mayor whose made this a place for Stag Parties and Hen Nights, so the clubs and pubs have taken over the town and you get some idea of what it's become. So many people I talk to loathe Nick Bye for what he's done. He wanted to move the War Memorial a while back, further into town. Seems a good idea, right? But he merely wanted the land the War Memorial stood on, so a Mega Casino could be put there instead.   Most of the good shops have pulled out now, many are empty or filled with crappy rubbish that you'd not want, ever.

There are so many drug addicts and alcoholics here, their faces deathly pale and gaunt. It's like a different planet from more affluent places....and all this is now happening in The English Riviera, a place of great beauty, an English Monaco, almost...but look a little deeper and you see a town dying on its' feet, whilst the million pound yachts bob up and down in the pretty harbour.

There are no jobs of any worth. Hardly any jobs at all. This year in particular, there aren't even any signs in the window for Easter jobs...and the people grow more desperate, more hopeless.

So the anger runs deep in this town as does the bad behaviour at times. I don't excuse it, but I'm just saying I understand it. It's exactly the same thing I used to see in Horrabridge, on Dartmoor, where I used to live years back. Again, there, lay deep poverty..and a vast factory farm of a school, Tavistock College, where over 2,000 pupils spent the vast majority of their young life shut inside. Terrible things happened in that place, I know because my daughter went there...and just last year the headmaster was dismissed after it failed almost every OFSTED tick box they could think of.   The misery in that school spreads out into all the local villages, as schools down there are few and far between...

Exmouth College is another. It used to be in the Guinness Book of Records as the biggest school in Europe..(!?!) and the town centre again has many drink related problems, cameras everywhere..

I've tried to tell folks for years now that so many social problems are also there because of these vast schools, where children lose their identities, where bullying runs rife. I'd wait for my little boy, as he was then, when he went to Tavistock Primary for a very short while, which lay behind the College..and I'd be aghast at how some parents spoke to their children..They seemed to hate them...

Now I realise that those parents themselves had probably known a similar upbringing.

If society can change that, then we can change many other things too.
Harshness now dominates so many things in young people's lives, music, video games, films, the entire culture...far more than when we were young...all these horrifically violent images that so many of them watch from early childhood, yet they were never there in our minds in the first place. You never had to worry that your children might be watching some horrific video when they went round to tea with a friend back when I was little...Yet now, goodness knows what is going on half the time.

The desensitisation of our children is an horrific thing, which is not being addressed at all. That desensitivity spills out into the streets, into how they treat each other, other people, animals...it spreads far and wide.

Big problem to cure. It can be cured, but only if enough people first face up to it being here in the first place, and then decide to do something about it...and we need to decide that AS A NATION, being led from the top downwards. If we don't tackle this, then each generation will get successively more desensitised..ad infinitum...imo.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 07:45 AM

To be a chav is a choice. To be a "paki" is not. People who choose to act unacceptably merit condemnation.

Being told at school to concentrate and work in stead of staring out of the window at the pretty leaves does not exclude you from society. You can, if you choose, concentrate and work. If you don't - your choice. Those less abled or somehow disadvantaged (including by backgrounds where learning, reading, coherent speech, or mathematics are not normal) deserve help.

Those who won't learn (for example because something is mathematical or geeky) earn the consequences.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 08:14 AM

Richard, you could no more get my mind to concentrate, than fly. That goes for hundreds of thousands of other children too. You need to concentrate your mind on that fact.

You have a conversation with me, and my mind is off having a thousand different conversations at once. A picture will come into my head and off I go, down a completely different pathway, eventually coming back, possibly, to the original topic.

This does not make me, or others, thick, it is merely that our minds work differently to yours.

For instance, take me to a museum, my son too, and within 30 minutes I'm jumping to get out into the fresh air. My daughter however, wants to live inside The British Museum, she adores it, soaks up every word, knows more than most of the staff I'd imagine, about so very many things inside it.   My son and I are both "OK, seen one arrow, seen the entire thousand on display! Sunshine here we come!"

I fall asleep more often than not, reading books, or watching a film. I always know when I've read a great book, seen a great film, because it's KEPT my attention. Same with a great teacher too, or a wonderful CD.

The other day I went to Totnes Museum. Well, I was really enjoying looking at the costumes, the kitchen, the bedroom etc, because I related to it all, saw the four poster bed and whooosh my mind was away with faeries in moments, seeing the lovers there from so long ago...But then, Charles Babbage came up..and there he was sitting at his desk, and on that desk were some Logarithm papers...YIKES! not seen those horrendous things since school. Charles was looking angry, apparently, because there was a mistake in some of the numbers, and they were getting the public to try to work out where they were....All I saw was an ocean of meaningless numbers, no pictures to them, just squiggles, mesningless squiggles....and that was it, I was away over the other side of the room and back to the lovers in that 4 poster faster than Mr. Babbage could do a mathematical equation!

The difference between my mind and yours is that I understand how we all think differently, and why. I know that the lights in my brain ignite in places where you have no bulbs, whilst your brain is lit in a totally different way to mine. Your brain may be filled with Babbage Bulbs, mine is filled with Faerie Bulbs. Each has their place. Others have Brain Surgeon Bulbs. Musical Bulbs. Writer's Bulbs and some, of course, have a mixture of many.

We need different brains for different things in life. Nature designed us so. School, so often, demands that we all learn the things that 'they' have decided we need to learn.   Some may never write, never be able to, but they may be the best storytellers in the world. Others may never be able to read, yet have vivid imaginations.

The Education System in its arrogant ?'wisdom'? is damaging many brains, making them study and study and STUDY things they loathe, that do no ignite their brain in the slightest. ALL that does is turn off the bright sparkling bulbs that have been in those brains, in other 'rooms' completely. And you are left with an empty museum, filled with nothing but the colour Red, an Angry Red, that causes its owner to lash out with tongue and fist to all those they regard as The Enemy.

ALL lights should be handled with care. Every bulb in every brain is inserted before birth, turned on at birth, and should remain LongLife Bulbs for Eternity.

Education is turning them off, in a Massive Power Failure, the likes of which has never been seen before.

It's up to those who run Education to decide if they want to reconnect The Lost Bulbs to The National Grid once again.


By all means criticise me, but hey, please don't treat me with disdain purely because whilst most of my class was doing logarithms, my brain was connecting with light, with sunshine, with shadows, with grass, with leaves, with clouds and sky, with shimmers and glimmers...for after all, it was a man seated one day under an apple tree who came up with a wondrous idea..........

My brain never stops marvelling, wondering, thinking, seeing, questioning....

On the BBC board some thought I started thread after thread to dominate the board. No such thing was even going through my head, it was merely that I had a thousand and one subjects I could talk about, start threads about, dream about, wonder about...

I am proud to be A Dreamer...

:0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 08:24 AM

And manyoung people join 'tribes' because they are fearful not to. They also go on to then behave as the tribe leader tells them, but inside, they may well be shuddering at what's going on. Do they have a choice? Well, yes, they do, but it's not that easy for so many when they're young. Few people have the guts these days to be individuals. They run with the crowd, eventually learning to fit in, even whilst hating doing that very thing.

Once again, I'm not saying that bad behaviour is OK, it most certainly isn't...and it makes me as fumingly angry as anyone else, but I can understand why it's happening.

Just yesterday on the bus two young people started playing their music REALLY loud, at the back of the bus. Everyone sat there fuming, you could see by their expressions.."Young people!!!"   I simply turned round, smiled at them, then said, "Excuse me, but could you please turn that down a bit?" They did so immediately, apologising..and I thanked them. End of story, no harm done...Yes, it irked that I had to say it at all, but again, if no-one tells you, then perhaps you never think how irritating it is to others. Always worth a try..and if they don't respond to Mrs. Nice Gal, then they get Mrs. Angry, which usually does the trick too, but I always try the nice approach first.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Lox
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 08:48 AM

"To be a chav is a choice. To be a "paki" is not. People who choose to act unacceptably merit condemnation. "

Wrong.

You're out of touch.

CHAV is a term of abuse use by the working class to describe the underclass, and by the middle classes to describe the lot.

It suggests that the user of the word has better taste, understanding and, effectively, hiigher social status than the person hhe is describing.


It was a word imposed on a particular demographic, not one chosen by them.

It is said with scorn and spite and has a similar dehumanizing and degrading purpose as Nigger, Paki etc.

To be a chav is to be scum.

If you are unsure about this, go and look up www.chavscum.com, a very popular and long lived website which is a source of great amusement to thousands of visitors to the site from all over the country.

Who knows, maybe you'll have a little chuckle yourself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Lox
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 09:00 AM

That should have been www.chavscum.co.uk ...

but it doesn't matter as it doesn't seem to be working.

However, instead why not check out www.chavtowns.com

Its great - whole towns are condemned as being inhabited by lowlifes.

Usually neglected suburbs.

You can tickle your entertainment gland with such witticisms as this (I know how you appreciate wit Richard):

"North lynn is a typical chav suburb of the shit hole kings lynn. its heaving with scum, who tend to live in council houses with 9 other people and a family of kids all of which have different dads as the mum (generally a hire bike) forgot to take her pill. usually because they were getting stoned with there ten year olds and getting there twelve year old to go to the 'paki shop' to buy 8 or more bottles of coke, (h)while waiting for a 'fat off' Indian to arrive."

Ahhh ... there's nothing like a stereotype to put a smile on your face eh? ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 09:53 AM

Lizzie Cornish: "Richard, you could no more get my mind to concentrate, than fly."

Lizzie, calm down. Everything is alright! Richard can't even get his own mind to concentrate...so you're safe!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 12:07 PM

Thank you, GfS. :0)

Excellent posts, Lox.

Well, I've just got back from town. Whilst I was waiting for the bus there was a young couple there, about the same age as my son, 16/17..
The young girl was dressed in a white and pink shell suit, with a white hoodie. Her partner had baggy jeans and a T shirt. Both were smoking, and the young girl already had yellowing teeth, not an ounce of make up and a really bad crop of teenage spots, poor love.

They had with them a pushchair, and I could just about see a tiny pair of feet sticking up, so...being a real soppy apeth where babies are concerned, I smiled at them both and asked if I could have a quick look inside. They both smiled back..and the young mum proudly pulled down the hood of the pushchair, to reveal her beautifil, sleeping 6 week old baby girl, immaculately dressed in a tiny deep pink dress with white lace on. She looked adorable, clean, comfy and well loved.

I ooohhed and ahhhed and then I told them not only how beautiful she was, but how very, very lucky they were to have her, as babies are a real gift. I told them to remember that, even in the darkest hours of the night, when they've not slept for hours and hours...or they can't get their thoughts together because of the "But..WHY?..Mum!" questions in a few years time...They beamed. They not only beamed, but they glowed with happiness. They both had gentle voices and he helped her on the bus with the pushchair, both of them saying goodbye to me.

The thing is, some may have passed them by and sniffily thought what bad teenagers they were...but there was real love and happiness there. So sometimes, stepping out of a stereotypical way of thinking is a good thing to do, because honestly, you'd be surprised to find that possibly the 'chav' you're moaning about has all the worries, hope and dreams that you do, but perhaps theirs are all bigger....and sadly maybe less able to come true.

Anyway, that's the last from me in this thread. Nothing more to say about the subject.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 01:19 PM

Lizzie, you may be handicapped (although I doubt it, technically). All you have to do is focus. Your choice.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 01:19 PM

Oh, 100


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 01:42 PM

I don't think chavs are scum. I think petty criminals, people who purposely indulge in anti-social behavior (including trying to turn threads into their own petty arguments) and child-abusers are though.

I think people who indulge in pseudo-psycho babble without having a clue what they are talking about are idiots.

And I think that a high proportion of posters here are stuck that far up their own arseholes that they would ne be able to see a chav unless indulging in some sort of non-standard sexual behavior. :-)

MP


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 02:53 PM

I think that (virtually) everyone is roleplaying. But they aren't consciously aware of it. It's automatic. Their personality is an outward role they have become habituated to playing. They could decide at any time to stop playing that compulsive role...but they aren't aware that they're playing it! They think they ARE it. So they continue playing it in a very predictable and unconscious way. And that is the personality they present to others and run around constantly bolstering inside their own mind, thinking: "This is who I am. I must defend it and assert it. Therein lies my survival."

And that is the source of all the endless bitching and arguing and intolerance to others that goes on on Mudcat, on the Internet, and in life in general. People are vociferously defending the role they are unconsciously playing...their chosen personal identity, as they see it.

When they encounter another personality (role player) whose outward identity differs from their own on various key trigger points, it really bothers them. They react by going into an attack or defense mode. That causes the other person to likewise react in an attack or defense mode....and the shit starts to fly.

Just like on this thread. It becomes a feedback loop.

If one were to wake up one day and stringently question one's habitual role that one has been playing all these many years and look within...rather than looking all around with an eagle eye for the different other roles out there to dispute with.........what might happen then?

It might be worth trying. You might find something much more agreeable and peaceful than the role you have long been playing....which is your present personality matrix with all its fears, resentments, criticisms, phobias, pretensions, pride, possessions, beliefs, habits, causes, grudges, wants, and apparent needs.

You might find something....Or you might not. ;-) The average personality would rather die than consider giving up its habitual role! It would rather do almost anything than look calmly within and cease attacking and judging other roles and defending its own. And its reaction to any suggestion of doing so would be to hurl some choice epithet like "Rubbish!" or "Bollocks!"

So go right ahead. ;-) Play the role a bit longer. Only an unendurable amount of pain can make the average ego relinquish its accustomed role.

When it does, though, it will stop arguing. For most of us, that only happens finally when we die, because we just won't let go until we have NO choice about it any longer.

And that's when that little role ends. It would be quite an accomplishment to find peace prior to that event, wouldn't it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,Mrs Olive Whatnoll
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 02:57 PM

Rubbish! Bollocks! Wot a lot of rot! Wot the bloody 'ell are you, a feckin' Dally Lamar? Sod off!

- Mrs Olive Whatnoll


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 02:59 PM

Thank you for that helpful demonstration, Olive. ;-D


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 03:11 PM

Mad Polly, I do hope I am not one of the ones 'stuck up their own arseholes' (What an unpleasant expression)
LittleHawk, I agree with what you say, in that as we are social creatures we create a persona to present to others and eventually become that role. But in my case, IF I relinquished the role and showed my innermost true self, it wouldn't be better, it would be worse, because I (like many others I suspect) am not all that nice 'underneath', and would blurt out hidden opinions and behave in an uncivilised fashion. I constantly monitor and modify my inner personality in order NOT to hurt or offend my fellows. I don't see the different roles of others as a threat, on the contrary, I regard them as interesting and stimulating. They don't trigger aggression in me, (but sometimes they can hurt if they're too vicious!)


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 03:32 PM

You're speaking of 2 common levels of the mind-constructed personality, Eliza...the outer polite "varnish", so to speak that one presents as an agreeable public role...and the raw unvarnished, rather savage ego that lies beneath it, which is the private role...but they're still both a form of personality role-playing. One is public. The other's private. One performs on the public stage. The other performs on the inner stage of one's own mind. The private one, usually hidden from most people, tends to come out much more openly within families, as near relatives are often a lot meaner to one another than they would dare to be with most strangers! This is because they figure their relative already KNOW the ugly "truth" about them...or have ALREADY judged them as severely lacking anyway, therefore they've got nothing left to lose by not going to much trouble to hide their real feelings...though they'll usually still hide the worst level! Too much risk there.

What I was suggesting, though, was to go deeper than both of those roles. I was suggesting to go to the level that preceded the very building of those roles, and that will outlive them. That level doesn't attack anyone, seek strife or condemn. But most people don't believe in it. They don't even know it exists, because they've never consciously acknowledged it. They have been entirely focused and absorbed upon building a mind-constructed personality (both public and private), maintaining it, and defending it. And that makes them quite defensive in their nature.

Yes, some personalities (the healthier ones) are far more inclined to see the good in others than the more negative personalities are. If so, as you say, they will tend to find other people interesting and stimulating. That's all to the good. A really negative personality will tend to find other people uninteresting, boring, frustrating, irritating, depressing, threatening, bothersome....even quite frightening in extreme cases.

At the most extreme level that can result in mental illness and violent crime.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 03:48 PM

I hesitate to acknowledge this but 'chav' comes across pretty much as an unfortunate label in the US- I don't like the label and don't use it myself but... "poor white trash" is a common (no pun intended) category in the 'old' south. Everybody knows what is meant by that and all levels of society have used it. Once an older black man apologized to me for using it in reference to a neighbor of his but added, 'That is what they are.'


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 04:03 PM

People who choose to act unacceptably merit condemnation.

But a label like "chav" typically get thrown at people not because of how they behave, but because of how they look. Which isn't that different from "paki" - which gets applied to people with no kind of link to Pakistan.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 04:09 PM

LittleHawk That's fascinating, to consider an inner, third level of being which is essentially 'pure'. Would you say that it is present in, say, a very young child, and subsequently becomes submerged under the veneers or roles invented by the adult? I wonder how one could access this original level. And is this concept at all linked to that of 'righteousness', a goal aimed at by spiritual and philosophical 'pilgrims'? Would it not be quite difficult to strip away those carefully constructed layers? (and scary, perhaps?) I also wonder if there are scientists who have experimented with mind-altering drugs which reveal the original, inner personality we're discussing. You HAVE made me think!


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 04:30 PM

No, Eliza, you are so far from those to whom I refer as to be in a different dimension. I am so glad you found the expression to be distasteful though as that was the intention :-) Apologies if it caused you any offence though.

Little Hawk - I am extremely impressed, honestly. The insight in your post is very astute. I fully understand roleplaying and I am very pleased that the role I have played here has been so convincing. It is, of course, very sad that those who percieve the internet as real life become so tied up in it that the real life itself does suffer. Not that I give a shit for them or any of their ilk.

I do wonder, though, if anyone realy knows how many personas I am playing on here...;-)

Cheers

MP


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 04:31 PM

... which does, of course, come back to the thread title :-D


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Lox
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 05:06 PM

"All you have to do is focus. Your choice. "

I see you are content with your stereotypes and generalizations.

Some pigs really are more equal than others.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 05:12 PM

Richard, I hope you find this as hilarious as I do.

Olive - Will you marry me?

MP.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 05:41 PM

You're speaking of 2 common levels of the mind-constructed personality,

Sorry for the multiple posts (again!) It is just the way my brain works. I have just realised that this is something I was going to address. We used to call it 'Talking broad and talking bang'. Talking broad was, and still is, speaking in a manner that outsiders would not understand. Pretty much like the chavs in my OP. Talking bang is what was done in polite conversations with outsiders. I have always understood and done it. My Grandad did. My Mother did. It was perfectly accepatble to talk broad amongst your peers, but everyone talked bang when anyone else (like the bus driver) was involved. Those who cannot see the difference are, at best, immature and, at worst idiots.

BTW - While I was typing this the doorbell rang. Sorry for being so middle class... Anyway, there were two young lads outside letting me know I had left the satnav in the car, switched on! I thanked them of course and when I went to retrieve the satnav they had gone so I could not even proffer any recompense. This is the type of attitude that I know and expect in my City. There are those who would have it that inner cities are pits of despair and no go areas. There are those, on this thread, who have said that certain places are no-go areas. Yet, when it suits them. they cannot sing the praises of youngsters enough.

It is. I guess, those mind-constructed personalities once more. Maybe split-constructed. Or just wankers? I don't know...

Cheers

MP


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,to chav or not to chav
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 05:50 PM

I'm such a working class snob I do my level best to avoid living among chavs.
Being a poor working class snob (who can't afford £100 trainers or £200 a week for White Widow and Coke), that's not as easy to do as it might be if I were more middle-class and tolerant.

"Wogs wot can't talk proper" make far better neighbours, plus I like the smell of curry far better than that of weed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 07:23 PM

Actually, I don't exist....I'm just letters and words that appear on a page!(Keeps my chops up!)

wink!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Lox
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 07:29 PM

Having trouble finding a good Scapegoat?

Are you uncomfortable about Stereotyping people with brown skin?

Not sure whether Travellers, eastern europeans or the Irish are still legitimate targets?

Why not try "Chavs" ... the homegrown alternative.

They're British, so you'll be supporting local produce and noone can call you racist - whats more, they are a scapegoat everyone can despise.

Just imagine apending a lovely evening chatting to Mr and Mrs Singh about how you love curry, when suddenly you need a scapegoat to blame for the cuts?

What are you to do ... Blacks and Asians are off limits ...


Have no fear, there is now an answer.

"Hello Mr and Mrs Singh, we love curry, don't we dear, yes, but don't you just hate Chavs ... and don't worry, they're english so this isn't racism"

etc etc etc


PS I live in the inner city.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 07:43 PM

Gosh, I never even heard of 'Chavs' before this thread...but upon hearing the word, it sounds like something you get if your pants are too tight..and you walked a long way, real fast!

Sincerely,
GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Joe_F
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 07:51 PM

In addition, you get an appreciative glance from me as you go past.

*

When I was in Scotland, there was a saying "Wogs begins at Newcastle". Where does chavs begin?


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: LadyJean
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 08:31 PM

I was born with a nice assortment of learning disabilities. I'm never sure whether it was a good or a bad thing that my family was the way it was. My father and both my grandfathers were lawyers. My mother and both my grandmothers were college graduates. It was decided early on that I would go to college too, if it killed me.
(It came close.)

A different family might have said to themselves, "Oh well, she's a girl, she'll get married. She doesn't need Algebra." (I haven't had a lot of use for it, which is good because I have no aptitude for it. But my parents insisted I take two years.) That was not an uncommon view in the fifties, sixties and even the seventies.

If I had been born into a different family I might now be illiterate or semi literate, that limits your options a bit.

I'm lucky I wasn't born into a family of athletes. I am not well coordinated. If I'd had to focus on sports, I think I might have killed myself.

The point I am trying to make is that different families value different things, and pass those values along to their kids. You can challenge those values, but it's going to be tough. If Mum and Dad don't think studying is important, don't expect them to turn down the telly so you can do your maths.

Incidentally, if you REALLY want to get a black look in Great Britain, use the American word for something. We're rather amused when someone from across the pond says boot instead of trunk or cinema instead of movies. The British will correct you immediately if you say trunk instead of boot or movies instead of cinema.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 12:27 AM

Eliza, to answer some of your questions, which were good ones...

"an inner, third level of being which is essentially 'pure'. Would you say that it is present in, say, a very young child, and subsequently becomes submerged under the veneers or roles invented by the adult?"

Yes. Absolutely. It is present in a very young child, and that is one reason why we find the innocence of young children (and young animals) so beautiful. There is a purity and simplicity there. There is no intent to harm. They are not yet doing the kind of complex mental roleplaying and hiding behind behavioral masks that they later learn from the society and the family and time they get born into. It's not a third level of being, though, it's the primary, essential level of being. Personality and all forms of cultural conditioning and mental conditioning get pasted over top of it, so to speak, year by year from quite an early age until they completely cover it up. At that point it appears to have been "lost"...though it's still there, but hidden underneath the outer acquired mental layers. It's usually not being consciously accessed at all any longer by the outward personality, although it can be accessed in brief moments of 'satori' (a feeling of complete peace and beauty which people will sometimes experience when watching a sunset or a rainbow or in some other evocative moment). I think it can also be accessed in moments of inspiration and great creativity.

"I wonder how one could access this original level."

By silencing the mind, yet remaining keenly alert and receptive. Quiet awareness. No mental chatter. This is NOT easy to do! You have to completely stop the habitual incessant flow of thoughts (your mental monologue or dialogue...people often mentally imagine a dialogue with someone else, specially when they disagree with them)....stop all that mental chatter and simply observe in silence, without any evaluation, purpose, prejudice or judgement. One good way to quiet the mental chatter is to closely observe your own breath rising and falling, and stay with it. See where it takes you.

Imagine what it would be like to be completely without ALL your established political, racial, class, cultural, religious (or non-religious), national, ethnic, and gender-based beliefs, assumptions, and partisan positions....all of which are learned mental postures of one kind or another.

Different? You bet. It would be a completely fresh and unbiased look at things. It would be a bit like being "born again"... ;-) ...because a young child is for a short while free of all that culturally added baggage. Even free of having a "name" (Your name is not who you are. It's a label. You can change that label, but who you essentially are remains.)

"is this concept at all linked to that of 'righteousness', a goal aimed at by spiritual and philosophical 'pilgrims'?"

Yes. Absolutely. Religions, at their more esoteric or their deeper mystical level, attempt to regain that original pure state of awareness...one that has been linked symbolically with concepts like "Paradise", "Eden", "Heaven", etc. (At their more superficial levels they play all the usual dirty political, money and power games that have given religion a bad name.)

"Would it not be quite difficult to strip away those carefully constructed layers? (and scary, perhaps?)"

Yes! Very difficult, because your mind absolutely does not want to become silent and give up all its familiar (mental) "posessions"...it's habitual positions, reactions, and stances and its emotional dramas. It equates the giving up of that with its own death. Thus it is very scary to the mind. The fear vanishes if you manage to do it, though, and is replaced by a great sense of expanding peace and beauty.

I have not reached a point where I'm much good at doing what I'm alluding to here. I'm barely beginning. I just know a bit about it, because I've known a tiny handful of people who clearly can do it...so I know it's real. And I study it. I work toward it. How do I know it's real in those people? Simple. Just by being around them a good deal and seeing what they are like, how well and kindly they conduct themselves, and by listening and observing carefully.

It doesn't mean that you have to join some kind of religion. That is not necessary at all. You don't have to join anything, in fact. You don't have to believe in any specific deity or set of rules. You just access what you originally were, before you got programmed by the culture all around you, your family, your nation, etc. The original you, before you carried ANY acquired prejudices, political grudges or fear.

If I'd never encountered people with experience doing this, I'd probably have given it little consideration. As it is, I now give it a great deal of consideration.


*****

Roleplaying is fun, and it can be quite constructive if you pick a constructive role. I roleplayed being a folksinger-songwriter for decades, for example, and it has had some good effects on me and on others, I don't regret it, but it IS a culturally acquired role...and I know it. (I took on that role because the people I most admired in my youth were a small number of really fine folk musicians, singers, and songwriters. I sought to emulate them and built myself the role accordingly.)

As long as I know it's a role, then I am free to use it...instead of it using me. But beyond that, I am more than the role I play. I'd like to connect with that in me which is beyond the outer role I play. To the extent that I do, I can play the outer roles in a much more effective and harmonious way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Janie
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 12:28 AM

Interesting thread to this southern USA hillbilly.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 02:26 AM

HBO documentary The Whites is about a family in West Virginia whose name is White and are the quinticential Hillbillies whose men are primarily coal miners. The children are featured and show how they are rewarded for mimicing the adults who are more child than adult.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 03:37 AM

Yes, I in the UK object to US cultural and linguistic imperialism.

Otherwise, LadyJean, you appear to demonstrate that you were supported, focussed, and got on. You may never be a maths professor, but you did your best and seem to have benefitted.

Lox, ask yourself why it's is ALWAYS (yes I mean that) chavs who physically attack goths, never the other way round? There's nothing wrong with being working class. There's everything wrong with acting like a chav.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 04:35 AM

LittleHawk Thank you very much for your extremely interesting and thought-provoking answers to my questions. You mention 'people with experience doing this'. I have spent some time on retreats with contemplative nuns, who practised 'inner silence' and it sounds rather like the goal you describe. The sisters encouraged me to do just as you say, to eradicate all the strident and powerful content and try to 'empty' the consciousness, leaving space for the true nature of oneself to emerge. (It wasn't necessarily for Christian or even religious people, as anyone was welcome.) The experience made me see that there is indeed an awful lot of imposed and self-contrived 'rubbish' inside one, and what I personally was left with was a childlike naivety. I found this refreshing, liberating but also a bit frightening, as you do feel vulnerable without your armour and your role, like going on stage with no script and no lines! (This is a bit of a drift from 'chavs, but immensely fascinating.) Eliza


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 05:24 AM

"Having trouble finding a good Scapegoat?"

Not really Lox - seeing as you're asking. You're determined to see everyone else as a closet racist, though, aren't you?

I acknowledge that, to a greater or lesser degree, all of us have an inbuilt fear of strangers and that this can be a trigger for racism. That hasn't stopped people from living in multi-ethnic societies for thousands of years though. It's when unscrupulous rulers and priests etc. invoke the 'fear of strangers' instinct for their own nefarious purposes (usually political or economic) that the trouble starts.

Our rulers, in the UK, have decided that (probably for their own unscupulous political and economic reasons) racism should be discouraged. As a result it appears to me that there is less casual racism around than when I was young (you would have to ask members of ethnic minorities if that was really true).

Having educated myself on these matters I do know that 'race' doesn't actually exist (every person on Earth is an 'anatomically modern human') - so it's a bit of an irrelevance really.

What I do believe though is that every person has the ability to contribute to a progressive society and a healthy environment.

I also believe everyone also has a RESPONSIBILITY to use their abilities for the common good. This is why I despise the wilfully stupid and why I believe that it does no good to treat certain members of society as passive victims. To do so is to fail to recognise the particular person's innate abilities and to write them off. To my mind the effect is the same as actively discriminating against them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 06:08 AM

Thanks to those who are getting this thread out of the mire of petty squabling and point scoring. Now, how about returning to the original point - It was a humorous incident. Not a deep meaningful portratal of the class struggle:-)

MP


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 06:10 AM

Racism is a misnomer; as Shimrod says there is no race. There is ethnicity though, and there is xenophobia, and there is paranoia and collective idenitity. At the end of the day, there are only ever human individuals who manifest both the best and the worst of what it means to be human. Social creatures though, seeking belonging, which very often means losing sight of other individuals who are only ever doing likewise. Culture has no objective existence; it is always a subjective condition entirely dependant on individual perpection - you can never pin it down saving in the most general terms which will always lead to intollerance - hence the most nauseating aspects of this thread which just aren't worth responding to.

Our culture in the collective reality of us all; in my nieghbourhood that includes Chavs, Neds, Teachers, Nurses, Policemen, Youth Workers, Hippies, Moslems, Hindus, Goths, Emos, Christians, Folkies, Boy Racers, Witches, Piss Heads, Skinheads, Smack heads, Pagans, Urchins, Fowl Mouthed Kids, Pensioners and benefit savvy single mums. I think of it as Pigeon Street - or else Shameless - especially as the nights get lighter and they're partying in the streets into the wee small hours. Anti-social? You bet, but I never hear the police-sirens, and if the occasional fued breaks out into blood-shed, there's always a story to account for it. I don't suppose we can expect anything else really, but in my entirely working-class life lived on the front line, I've rarely witnessed any truly mindless violence - there is always a story.

England, my England - and the people, Lord, thy people - which all comes down to a few simple words: Live and Let Live - and, above all, Respect. In the words of Frank Gallagher - This is our England now...


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,petecockermouth
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 06:33 AM

all people are stupid for some of the time. no people are stupid all the time. generally,crowds are more stupid than individuals. when criticising others for their stupidity, be well aware of your own stupidity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Lox
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 08:45 AM

"You're determined to see everyone else as a closet racist, though, aren't you?"

Nope.

I've informed people on here what the word Chav is and what it means.

I'm saying that the word CHAV is a derogatory word imposed on Britains white underclass.

My assertion is backed up by every dictionary I have read, all of which describe the word Chav as derogatory.


This piece of information has caused quite a stir.

People seem to want to defend their right to use this word.

They do so by criticizing how Chavs behave.

In the process making sweeping judgements about hundreds OF thousands of unemployed, uneducated people on housing estates all over the country.

The word "chav" buys straight into the whole daily mail idea of scrounging lazy spongers.

When ever I hear the word used, it is in conjunction with other swear words eg 'bloody chavs' or 'fucking chav etc'

Chav is not a word that is said, but a word that is Spat and discarded in the gutter.

Comparing them to Mods, Rockers, Punks etc is wrong as all those groups called themselves those names and were proud to be members of that group.

Chavs were labelled and despised first and then reclaimed the word chav for themselves afterwards.

There is a serious problem concerning the development of the uderclass in Britain, and using the term Chav to foster contempt for them does noothing to address that problem.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Lox
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 08:54 AM

Mad Polly,

If you actually read my posts, you might notce that I haven't said anything to criticise your account of your experience.


The word Chav came up and I pointed out that it is a derogatory word.

It is one.

There is no argument there until people start defending their right to generalize about Chavs.

My intention is to get people to question the way 'Chav' is used.


Why should that get peoples knickers in such a twist?


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Lox
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 09:01 AM

An earlier post was eaten so here it is again ...

in response to:

"When I was in Scotland, there was a saying "Wogs begins at Newcastle". Where does chavs begin? "


The answere is that Chavs begin in Newcastle too, since in scotland they are referred to as "Neds".


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Allan Conn
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 09:35 AM

"Wogs begins at Newcastle". Lived in Scotland for half a century and never heard that expression. Though admittedly that doesn't mean it doesn't exist - but it certainly isn't a common expression. Whoever made it up doesn't know their geography. Poor old folks of rural Northumberland get ignored again :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 09:46 AM

Mad Polly,

If you actually read my posts, you might notce that I haven't said anything to criticise your account of your experience.


Huh? Where did that come from? I suppose I could say that if YOU read MY posts you will notice that I haven't said anything to suggest that you HAVE said etc. etc. But it would all seem a bit childish and pointless wouldn't it. After all, did I not say, no more than a few hours ago, "Now, how about returning to the original point - It was a humorous incident. Not a deep meaningful portratal of the class struggle".

I am more than happy to discuss the working class struggle, meanings of words or the price of fish with anyone. But why do it here? In fact - I'll make it easy for you. I will start a thread where you can pontificate away to hearts content. Look out for "The meaning of words".

Cheers

MP


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 10:12 AM

"In the process making sweeping judgements about hundreds OF thousands of unemployed, uneducated people on housing estates all over the country."

Lots of people I know are unemployed - I'm unemployed! Those people are not chavs and neither am I!

Lots of my friends grew up on housing estates - and some of them, like me, grew up in rented housing. Those people are not chavs and neither am I!

Perhaps YOU need to stop making sweeping generalisations, Lox!

Finally, chavs WERE educated! They received a free, state education - as did I and my friends. Where there were gaps in my education I filled them myself - it's only because they didn't take advantage of their free education and because of their wilful ignorance and stupidity that chavs didn't do the same and are classed as "uneducated".


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 11:40 AM

Eliza - Well, the nice thing about the roles we play...or might decide to play...is that you are free to take them on at any time you desire. The important thing is that they don't take you on which is what happens when you get so caught up in the role that you forget that you are anything BUT that role. That's when the role has taken you over, made you its unconscious servant, and you are, in essence, under its control rather than being in charge of the situation. You are no longer able to drop it if you choose, because you're forgotten that you have the choice!

Thus do people get completely overtaken by their political roles, their religious roles, their gender roles, their role as "boss" or "underling", their various socially acquired roles....and once taken over by a role they lose much of their original spontaneity, their humanity, their flexibility, and their self-awareness. They get lost in the role they are playing.

That's sort of like an actor in a play who forgets that he is in a play. He might be playing a villian in that play...he might be playing a hero...she might be playing a patriotic and loyal German fighting for the Nazis in WWII...she might be playing a feminist crusader in post-modern America... ;-) Whatever the role is, good, bad or indifferent, you've gotten lost in in it once you can't see beyond it anymore. And you will then fight the endless battles which that that role seems to demand of you...and feel righteous in so doing. Many of those battles may be pointless, they may be harmful to you and others, and they may not serve you well in the end. An inner state of peace would not opt to fight such battles at all. You see them raging constantly on this forum, in the world, in politics, in human relations, inside us, and all around us.

A role can end any time you decide it's not serving you any longer. You just take a clear look at it, let go of it, and stop playing it. But it can only end if the "actor" realizes it's just a role. If they firmly believe they ARE that role at an intrinsic and permanent level, then they are trapped by it. And they will keep fighting just as that role demands of them until they either wake up from it....or die. Whichever comes first.

So did thousands of young Japanese in WWII go forth on Kamikaze missions or suicide charges, and they gave up their lives. They played out the self-sacrificing role that their society had taught them...to the very end. Unfortunately, within that rigid military command structure even those individuals who were self-aware enough to question and possibly drop that role had almost no possible way of doing so. A great tragedy, and it consumed a generation of brave and very capable young people. That's how powerful a political/social role can become.

Every role automatically assumes its own rightness and its innate justice (whether or not it's truly right or just). And that is believed by those who take up the role and they serve it righteously...unless and until they experience a dramatic re-appraisal of the role they've been playing. Then they might see through it and drop it...usually for another role. I've met some people who turned from deep belief in a religion, for example, to deep hostility toward all religion (or at least that religion), and I've met people who did the exact opposite. They exchanged one militant role for another. They became taken over by the new role they had chosen and began fighting the new battles it demanded. They got lost in the roles they were playing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 11:55 AM

Consciousness, Creativity and the Brain

Eliza, you may like this video.

Perhaps, if all students were taught to meditate, taught Spirituality, given far more time to Be, and far less time to Be Examined, then maybe many young people would WANT to gather knowledge, would want to continue to continue with the natural learning ability we are all born with.

No baby is *born* a 'chav'....and perhaps there are people on this thread who need to remember that.

What people are not asking on here is WHY so many young people seem to almost rejoice in ignorance. When they start to ask that, then start to realise the answers, they may find that the educationstress industry is very much a part of the problem.

Oh..and 'chav' can also stand for 'council house and violent' in some folks eyes. Nice, huh?

I wasn't raised in a council house, but I was raised in a rented house on a private estate, where, until folks became wealthy enough to start buying the houses up, all houses looked the same, albeit with a slight difference in their styles. There were three colours of paintwork, green, blue and yellow....green, blue and yellow...on and on those colours went, right around our estate. My family's house stayed one of those colours long after many others had bought theirs, been able to paint their own colour...My dear Dad never did get to buy his house, despite us living there for 27 years. He loved that house with all his heart though...

Since that time, every house I've bought, apart from our first one ever, has been 'different' to other houses, and even to this day, living in a row of uniform houses makes me want to run away.

To live all your life on a council estate, particularly a bad one, brings its own stigma. To know that others make fun of you, think you're stupid, lower than shite, or some kind of social disease, brings anger and that anger keeps on growing, especially when you find that you are unable to break free from the very life you so want to...

Until society addresses what is so wrong within it, why it's become so fractured and how to stick it back together, things will continue in this vein. We will never put Humpty Dumpty back together though if, as we do it, we stick plasters on him with 'chav' written in bright, glow-in-the-dark colours.

Inside many minds that have switched off are bright but damaged brains. Those brains can all be brought back to a healthy state, but...I guess its far easier to medicate the children, call them names, curse them or put them in prison, rather than admit we are getting things so, SO wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 12:15 PM

I wonder which bit of "Now, how about returning to the original point - It was a humorous incident. Not a deep meaningful portratal of the class struggle". is so difficult to comprehend? OK, I know I spelt portrayal wrong but this is probably down to ADHD or dyslexia or seeing someones bum when I was 3 so I know that can be excused.

I have already said it twice but, here goes third tome lucky, to those who seek to excuse bad behavior and foul language. FUCK OFF

Thank you

MP


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 12:40 PM

Richard Bridge: "Yes, I in the UK object to US cultural and linguistic imperialism."

Speaking of 'stupid'.....'US cultural and linguistic imperialism.'?? You mean ENGLISH??????????..which we got from England??? YOU???

BUT..English is a great language!!
Some stupid idiots bitch about EVERYTHING!!! Then, somebody comes along, promises them 'political change'.....then we're fucked!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 12:43 PM

What you are experiencing here, Mad Polly, is the same thing that happens to any person who sticks their head innocently up above the parapet and says something on a public forum on the Internet.

You didn't realize that you were in the trenches and that a war was about to start all around you. You begin to realize it, though, when a whole bunch of people in those other trenches just across the way start firing their guns at you! It's surprising and frustrating to discover that your innocent attempt to simply express some thought you had has triggered a thread war which you never intended to declare.

You get mad. You fire back. Various people take your side and also start firing back at those who fired at you. Other people join those who fired at you and the battle increases in fury and dimension.

You pull out the BIG GUNS. You tell them all to "FUCK OFF". Nice explosion. ;-) But to what effect? The war goes on, regardless.

At this point I am thinking it might be a good idea to put down the rifle, burn the uniform, and start walking home, because the thread you had in mind has ceased to exist, it's been replaced by a mental war between a whole bunch of people, and there's not a darned thing you can do about it except walk away and find something else to spend your time on. NOTHING you can say will get everyone on this thread to understand your original point, because they are too busy making THEIR point. Their point is the only one they really care about. ;-) They don't care about your point, and they never will. There's absolutely nothing you can do about that.

Except maybe laugh. ;-D And then go find something that makes you smile.

I think that's what I'll do right about now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 02:01 PM

LittleHawk, again I'm grateful for your time and patience in explaining the 'role theory' to me, and I agree with the viewpoint, except I can foresee a major flaw. How does one know that one has succesfully shed the layers of role-playing veneers, and stripped away the different personas, and that what one is left with is not actually yet another 'role'? Self-delusion is such an easy trap to fall into. I wonder if, having tried hard to lose the false and inappropriate opinions and postures, does not one risk adopting the new role of 'The Wise One'? The sisters warned me of this. Just when I was feeling quite pleased that I'd made progress, I had to beware a sense of pride, that I was now 'The Enlightened'. I suspect I had merely put on a different costume for the play!
Lizzie, thank you for the video. With regard to young people 'rejoicing in ignorance', I think it's just the fashion these days. I don't know whether damaged minds CAN be put back together. The mind of a child is a sensitive and delicate thing, and injuries run deep, like a young tree which will carry scars all its life. That is why, like you, I worry about how children are treated and raised in today's climate. It isn't a particularly healthy one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 02:06 PM

I have done little but laugh since it began LH - maybe not for the reasons you think but I have found it profoundly amusing. I would like to thank you for your sage words all the same and agree that your synopsis is an excellent description of what goes on all the time on here.

Back to the thread title I suppose... :-)

MP


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 02:10 PM

Mad Polly, do you mean 'sneer'?


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 02:14 PM

I'm pretty sure I don't mean sneer Eliza but as I have no idea to what you are refering I could be mistaken I suppose :-S

I refer you to the other thread, which I hoped would take some of the arguing away from here -

When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.

Cheers

MP


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 02:24 PM

MadPolly, you said "I have done little but laugh..." It seemed to me you are actually sneering. But do forgive me if, as you say, I am wrong. Like Humpty Dumpty (I have read the other thread) I also mean exactly what I say.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 02:54 PM

Ah - OK - No, I understand now, Eliza, and in answer to your question - No I was not sneering. I do wonder though how a sneer can be implied through the word laugh. Maybe Humpty Dumpty was on to something after all. He would have had a great time on the internet wouldn't he :-)

I think it is Little Hawk on the other thread that says, far more eloquontly, that it is more like how peope interpret what is meant by words. I could indeed imply a sneer in face to face or even purely vocal conversation. But on the internet we have only the actual words to go by and the verb to laugh should only ever be used to mean to laugh and to sneer should only ever be used to sneer.

I think you may have misinterpretted my intentions, or maybe been mis-informed? Anyhow, either way, I am a great believer in calling a spade a spade and a laugh a laugh. And a laugh was the whole point of the thread. Something that a lot of others are resolutely ignoring.

Cheers

MP


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 03:08 PM

I'm glad you've cleared that up, MadPolly, and I'm sorry I misunderstood you. But I wonder if words are so very 'literal' when written, as on the Mudcat? Sarcasm, disgust, anger, can all be sensed from a thread. (Or perhaps, as in this case, misinterpreted by me!) I too love a laugh, but many posters are very serious about what they post, and I for one take them seriously.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 04:44 PM

No trouble, Eliza. carrying on on the other thread and to anyone who thinks I have gone mad(der) on there - Tough luck, I am not posting a link back here just for your benefit:-)

MP


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 05:19 PM

Just out of interest I have just come back from the off-licence. King Street - The one at right angles to ours, that I walk up and down at least once a day, has been closed yet again due to a major fracas, resulting in yet another shooting, caused by these poor little victims of society. This is the third time in two years.

I know that all I need to do is walk up to them, smile, speak softly and cuddle them but when they are pointing a Smith And Wesson I do find it rather difficult. Poor little dears don't know any better though. I wonder how come my kids seem to know that shooting another person because they looked at you funny is not the polite thing to do though?

Anyway - There we have it. Last night - 2 likely looking lads very kindly letting me know that I was tempting potential theives and today a group of thugs (am I allowed to say that btw?) glassing and shooting each other outside the local boozer. Makes life interesting don't it :-)

MP


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 05:55 PM

Quite.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 06:42 PM

Eliza - Your last point was an excellent one. As the nuns at that retreat warned you, yes, you can fall into another level of self-delusion (spiritual pride) as you begin seeing yourself as "the wise one". You betcha! ;-) Just one more level of the ego-mind that can snare you along the way. I've watched it snare others. I've watched it snare me on occasion too. As you put it, "another costume for the play".

I am genuinely seeking what lies at the heart of life, and I'm absolutely sincere about it, but I would not describe myself as "the wise one". I am, as I said before, just barely beginning on that path. I'm a novice...and I know it.

There is something absolutely beautiful inside each one of us, no matter who we might appear to be at present. I'm seeking it. I hope to find it or at least get closer. I hope the same for every else around me. May we all progress in whatever way suits us best.

I believe that if you and myself and "Mad Polly" were to meet in regular 3-D life, we would find ourselves in good company. We could easily be friends. We are all striving for something better, as far as I can see.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 06:57 PM

I'm quite sure we would all find it very interesting and pleasing to meet and talk together. As you say, we have goals in common. I do feel it's important never to sit back complacently and think one has reached perfection in ones philosophy. I have lived a long time, and will never, I know, get close to achieving understanding, but one can only keep trying. It's folk with open and sincere minds that help me to make progress.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 11:20 PM

Speaking of which:

No surprise to me


LONDON DAILY TELEGRAPH - very embarrassing!
   
The American people can now more readily "understand" why the Obama's were omitted from the guest list to the Royal wedding in April! This is a very sobering article. Our handling of relationships with the Britons over the oil spill didn't help either.


From The London Daily Telegraph Editor On Foreign Relations

Quote:

"Let me be clear: I'm not normally in favor of boycotts, and I love the American people. I holiday in their country regularly, and hate the tedious snobby sneers against the United States . But the American people chose to elect an idiot who seems hell bent on insult ing their allies, and something must be done to stop Obama's reckless foreign policy, before he does the dirty on his allies on every issue."

One of the most poorly kept secrets in Washington is President Obama's animosity toward Great Britain , presumably because of what he regards as its sins while ruling Kenya (1895-1963).

One of Barack Hussein Obama's first acts as president was to return to Britain a bust of Winston Churchill that had graced the Oval Office since 9/11. He followed this up by denying Prime Minister Gordon Brown, on his first state visit, the usual joint press conference with flags.

The president was "too tired" to grant the leader of America 's closest ally a proper welcome, his aides told British journalists.

Mr. Obama followed this up with cheesy gifts for Mr. Brown and the Queen. Columnist Ian Martin described his behavior as "rudeness personified." There was more rudeness in store for Mr. Brown at the opening session of the United Nations in September. "The prime minister was forced to dash through the kitchens of the UN in New York to secure five minutes of face time with President Obama after five requests for a sit down meeting were rejected by the White House", said London Telegraph columnist David Hughes. Mr. Obama's "churlishness is unforgivable", Mr. Hughes said.

The administration went beyond snubs and slights last week when Secretary of State Hillary Clinton endorsed the demand of Argentine President Cristina Kirchner, a Hugo Chavez ally, for mediation of Argentina 's specious claim to the   Falkland Islands , a British dependency since 1833. The people who live in the Falklands, who speak English, want nothing to do with Argentina . When, in 1982, an earlier Argentine dictatorship tried to seize the Falklands by force, the British -- with strong support from President Ronald Reagan -- expelled them.

"It is truly shocking that Barack Obama has decided to disregard our shared history," wrote Telegraph columnist Toby Young. "Does Britain 's friendship really mean so little to him?" One could ask, does the friendship of anyone in the entire world mean anything to him?

"I recently asked several senior administration officials, separately, to name a foreign leader with whom Barack Obama has forged a strong personal relationship during his first year in office," wrote Jackson Diehl, deputy editorial page editor of the Washington Post, on Monday. "A lot of hemming and hawing ensued." One official named French President Nicolas Sarkozy, but his contempt for Mr. Obama is an open secret. Another named German Chancellor Angela Merkel. But, said Mr. Diehl, "Merkel too has been conspicuously cool toward Obama."

Mr. Obama certainly doesn't care about the Poles and Czechs, whom he has betrayed on missile defense.   Honduras and Israel also can attest that he's been an unreliable ally and an unfaithful friend. Ironically, our relations with both Israel and the Palestinian Authority have never been worse.   Russia has offered nothing in exchange for Mr. Obama's abandonment of missile defense.   Russia and China won't support serious sanctions on Iran .   Syria 's support for terrorism has not diminished despite efforts to normalize diplomatic relations. The reclusive military dictatorship that runs Burma has responded to our efforts at "engagement" by deepening its ties to North Korea .

And the Chinese make little effort to disguise their contempt for him.

For the first time in a long time, the President of the United States is actually distrusted by its allies and not in the least feared by its adversaries. Nor is Mr. Obama now respected by the majority of Americans. Understandably focused on the dismal economy and Mr. Obama's relentless efforts to nationalize and socialize health care, Americans apparently have yet to notice his dismal performance and lack of respect in the world community. They soon will.

-- London Daily Telegraph editor -- Alex Singleton


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Janie
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 11:54 PM

Still trying to understand from across the pond. Not asking anyone to take the time to explain, just very aware of my own cultural incompetence.

Found the following, using Max's development site and highlighting "Chav."



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CHAV

The press in Britain has recently been having fun mocking a group for which pejorative descriptions have been created such as "non-educated delinquents" and "the burgeoning peasant underclass". The subjects of these derogatory descriptions are said to be set apart by ignorance, fecklessness, mindless violence and bad taste.

To illustrate the last of these, critics point to their style of dress: a love of flashy gold jewellery (hooped earrings, thick neck chains, sovereign rings and heavy bangles, which all may be lumped together under the term bling-bling); the wearing of white trainers (in what is called "prison white", so clean that they look new); clothes in fashionable brands with very prominent logos; and baseball caps, frequently in Burberry check, a favourite style. The women, the Daily Mail wrote recently in a characteristic burst of maidenly distaste, "pull their shoddily dyed hair back in that ultra-tight bun known as a 'council-house facelift', wear skirts too short for their mottled blue thighs, and expose too much of their distressingly flabby midriffs".

This upsurge of popular distaste towards one group may be evidence for a cultural shift back towards a class-ridden British society — at least the fear that it might be so is causing some alarm in liberal circles. Critics point to the copying of the style by many younger television celebrities as a further dumbing-down of that medium. Much of the attention is due to the experience of a Web site, which was intended to be humorous but which was infiltrated by extremists who threatened to turn it into a hate site.

From a linguistic perspective the most interesting aspect is the wide variety of local names given to the type. Scots call them neds (often said to be an acronym of "non-educated delinquents", but that's a folk etymology, given credence by being mentioned as fact during a debate in the Scottish parliament in 2003; it's actually from an abridged form of the given name Edward, which was attached to this group in the period of the teddy-boys, who dressed in a version of Edwardian costume), while Liverpudlians prefer scallies (a term of long-standing for a boisterous, disruptive or irresponsible young man); Kev is common around London (presumably from the given name Kevin, common among this group and popularised through the portrayal on his television show by the comedian Harry Enfield of an idiotic teenager with that name). Other terms recorded from various parts of the country are smicks, spides, moakes and steeks (all from Belfast), plus bazzas, scuffheads, stigs, skangers, yarcos, and kappa slappers (girls who wear Kappa brand tracksuits, slapper being British slang for a promiscuous or vulgar woman).

The term that has become especially widely known in recent weeks, at least in southern England, is the one borrowed for the name of the Web site, chav. A writer in the Independent thought it derived from the name of the town of Chatham in Kent, where the term is best known and probably originated. It is also commonly said that it's an acronym, either from "Council House And Violent" or "Cheltenham Average" (the word being widely known in that area). As usual, we must treat supposed acronymic origins with the greatest suspicion; these examples are definitely recent after-the-event inventions as attempts to explain the word, though very widely known and believed.

But it seems that the word is from a much older underclass, the gypsies, many of whom have lived in that area for generations. Chav is almost certainly from the Romany word for a child, chavi, recorded from the middle of the nineteenth century. We know it was being used as a term of address to an adult man a little later in the century, but it hasn't often been recorded in print since and its derivative chav is new to most people.

Other terms for the class also have Romany connections; another is charver, Romany for prostitute. Yet another is the deeply insulting pikey, presumably from the Kentish dialect term for gypsy that was borrowed from turnpike, so a person who travels the roads.

Did chavi die out, only to be reinvented recently? That seems hardly likely from the written and anecdotal evidence, and many correspondents report that it is well known to them as a spoken term in various parts of the country; what we're seeing is a term that has been in active but inconspicuous use for the last 150 years suddenly bursting out into wider popular use in a new sense through circumstances we don't fully understand.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 02:30 AM

There was not long ago a long-ish thread here on the roots of the word "chav". Certainly I would heavily distinguish "chavi" - a word that IMHO respects the origins of a true Romany, from "chav".


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Lox
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 09:23 AM

"Lots of my friends grew up on housing estates - and some of them, like me, grew up in rented housing. Those people are not chavs and neither am I!"

Thats how you use the word Chav.

The fact is that the word chav is a derogatory term that refers with contempt to people perceived by the user to be lower class.


I do find it odd that so many of you take umbridge at being told that.


If you really want to call people chavs, thats fine - go ahead - call them anything you want.


The meaning and purpose of the word are what they are.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Lox
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 09:52 AM

Janie,

Thanks for your post.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 02:37 PM

Still don't know what a 'chav' is..but if it's somebody else new to hate, I'm sure the 'libs' will bring it to our attention!..........Oh, you mean they already have?

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 06:04 PM

Lox, you have not heard. It is not about class. It is about a subset of behaviour. Plenty of people of working class, plenty of people from the underclass are not chavs.

You are not listening because it does not suit your version of the class war.

Just because people are working class, lower class, underclass, poor or claimants does not make everything they do right.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Lox
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 07:00 PM

"Just because people are working class, lower class, underclass, poor or claimants does not make everything they do right. "

I didn't say that bad behaviour from a poor person is any more excusable than bad behaviour from a rich person.

What I'm saying is that the word "chav" isn't used in the way you suggest.

It is used to describe a particular demographic.

When I was in leicester, if you came from Beaumony Leys, New Parks or Northfields, you were considered a Chav by people not from there.

Don't go up there - its full of chavs ... etc

None of them of course saw themselves as Chavs, but each saw the other two that way.

You may have your personal understanding of "Chav" that you apply to people based on their behavour, but the reality is that most people don't use it like that.

It is a derogatory term for a social category also known as the scum of the earth.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 07:14 PM

"I don't know what you mean by 'glory,' " Alice said.
Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. "Of course you don't—till I tell you. I meant 'there's a nice knock-down argument for you!' "
"But 'glory' doesn't mean 'a nice knock-down argument'," Alice objected.
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less."
"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master      that's all."
Alice was too much puzzled to say anything, so after a minute Humpty Dumpty began again. "They've a temper, some of them—particularly verbs, they're the proudest—adjectives you can do anything with, but not verbs—however, I can manage the whole lot! Impenetrability! That's what I say!"


Ring any bells?

MP


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Lox
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 07:25 PM

Chav is a noun


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 07:33 PM

Blimey, I never knew that. What a wonderful thing education is...


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 07:45 PM

Lox: "Chav is a noun."

..and Chaz is a dude!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 11:22 PM

And char is an abbreviation for charwoman (a rapidly vanishing species around here).


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 12:01 AM

I thought 'char' was a fish.....

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 01:49 AM

Char is also used to refer to tea, as in "cup of char".


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 02:42 AM

"Just because people are working class, lower class, underclass, poor or claimants does not make everything they do right."


Neither does it make everything they do.....wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 04:26 AM

""Lots of my friends grew up on housing estates - and some of them, like me, grew up in rented housing. Those people are not chavs and neither am I!"

Thats how you use the word Chav.

The fact is that the word chav is a derogatory term that refers with contempt to people perceived by the user to be lower class."

Lox, you are a sanctimonious, self-righteous ... person. I think that we probably need to dream up a derogatory term to describe people like you!

I can't do better than to quote Richard Bridge above:

"Lox, you have not heard. It is not about class. It is about a subset of behaviour. Plenty of people of working class, plenty of people from the underclass are not chavs.

You are not listening because it does not suit your version of the class war."

You've probably not heard that either because you're stuck so far up your smug, sanctimonious, self-righteous rear end!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Lox
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 09:11 AM

Well Shimrod,

I see that, like Mad Polly, your main tactic in defending the use of a derogatory term is to throw around more derogatory terms.

How embarassing for you.

And how ironic that people so concerned about foul mouthed yobs are so quick to start swearing and spitting themselves.

"Chav" is a word and it has a meaning.

If you don't find it interesting then fine, but to react to that knowledge wiith so much Vitriol is very curious indeed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Lox
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 09:19 AM

Indeed,

By Richards Definiton of "chav", i.e. someone boorish, foul moithed and generally antisocial, Shim and MP are both coming across as decidedly Chavvy.

And considering that MPs original post was about laughing at a couple of rude people for allegedly refusing speak Engklish properly, she is making quite a song and dance about refusing to acknowledge the meaning of "Chav".

Not that any of us is above judgement, but it is a point that sure helps to keep us down to earth.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 09:55 AM

Lox,

I only become 'foul-mouthed' when I'm confronted by stubborn, sanctimonious ... people like you. I've just re-read my last post, by the way, and you must come from a very sheltered background if you think that the term 'rear end' is 'foul mouthed'!

What you keep stubbornly insisting on is that labelling someone as a 'chav' is to comment negatively on their class origins; as RB said above (and it's worth repeating over and over again): "It is not about class. It is about a subset of behaviour."

In a previous post you described chavs as being 'uneducated' and you ignored the point that I made then, that they all received a free education - so there is no reason why they should be uneducated. Perhaps they disrupted lessons or played truant? If that's true they have no one to blame but themselves. If my working class parents had heard that I had disrupted lessons or played truant there would have been 'hell to pay' - my parents knew the value of a decent education.

To my mind someone who goes around with 'ideological blinkers' on is poorly educated. It seems to me that such a person is unable to think for themselves and has to rely on a ready-made formula to provide their 'thoughts' for them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Lox
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 10:27 AM

Shimrod,

Ideological Blinkers?

Well before I challenge you to find evidence of my ideology on this thread let me just respond to a couple of points you have made.


1. "as RB said above (and it's worth repeating over and over again): "It is not about class. It is about a subset of behaviour.""

I know Richard said this. All it means is that he is unaware or has no experience of other ways in which "chav" is commonly used.

2. "you ignored the point that I made then, that they all received a free education - so there is no reason why they should be uneducated."

And you clearly missed my remarks that I have worked in a "chav" school.

It was not a place where you learned anything more than 'how to survive a chav school'.

For some that meant being good at football, for others it meant being safe in a gang.

For those not lucky enough to have either, it meant sitting near the teachers desk clutching your belongings in fear.

3. "To my mind someone who goes around with 'ideological blinkers' on is poorly educated. It seems to me that such a person is unable to think for themselves and has to rely on a ready-made formula to provide their 'thoughts' for them."

Is this you trying to set yourself up above me?

Fine - you can have it. I don't need it.

But perhaps while you're locating where I have stated an ideology, you can also indicate where I have used a formula and what it is.

4. "you must come from a very sheltered background if you think that the term 'rear end' is 'foul mouthed'!"

well lets not miss anything out eh?

"stuck so far up your smug, sanctimonious, self-righteous rear end!!"

Are you suggesting that this is a tasteful image? Or a witty riposte?

I couldn't give a monkeys really about the intended insult - it completely lacks teeth and looks a bit sheepish in the cold light of day.

But it does suggest a level of double standards.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 12:09 PM

"Indeed, and I hope that one day you will take the time to look up "socialism" and "class struggle"." Lox in reply to Richard Bridge, 14 April - 08.04 PM. Sounds pretty ideological to me, Comrade Lox!

But what's this I spy in in your last post?

"And you clearly missed my remarks that I have worked in a "chav" school.

It was not a place where you learned anything more than 'how to survive a chav school'.

For some that meant being good at football, for others it meant being safe in a gang.

For those not lucky enough to have either, it meant sitting near the teachers desk clutching your belongings in fear."

So what you're saying is that chavs DO exist and there IS a problem with their behaviour even at school?


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Stringsinger
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 12:15 PM

If you are poor, how will you get educated? What school can you afford?


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 12:21 PM

": Some people are so stupid..."

Does that refer to the 'Chavs'(whatever they are), or the people arguing about what they are and the 'correct' behavior, for 'incorrect behaving 'chavs'????????

GfS

P.S. On this subject, ignorance is bliss!


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Lox
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 12:55 PM

Shimrod.

I hope you don't make a habit of putting your foot in your mouth.

Its not a good look.

1. "Indeed, and I hope that one day you will take the time to look up "socialism" and "class struggle"." Lox in reply to Richard Bridge, 14 April - 08.04 PM. Sounds pretty ideological to me, Comrade Lox!

You obviously don't know Richard very well or you would know that he is a self professed socialist.

My comment above was a direct response to him (hence the use of his name).

It does not represent my ideology.

2. "So what you're saying is that chavs DO exist and there IS a problem with their behaviour even at school?"

No Shimrod.

Why don't you stop trying to be clever and start applying your mind.

You stated that as education is free and that there is no excuse for not learning.

The fact is that if you had gone to the school I am talking about, your education would have been very different.

The kids there have been dumped and forgotten and marginalized in their "chav" ghetto, or "chavtown" and the only hope they have, and often the only stability, is from teachers and community workers who try, often in vain, to give them a sense of hope and aspiration.

This task is made very difficult by a shortage of resources.

It is made harder by the fact that these kids are viewed with contempt by the local council, not to mention those a rung above them on the class ladder.

It is known as a chav school because the kids who go there are seen as Chavs by outsiders - not because they are chavs.

I know it has a reputation as a chav school because I used to hear it referred to as one all the time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 01:01 PM

Lox - in your "chav" school you had chavs and some who were not chavs, who I hope you sought to protect. Geddit?


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Lox
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 01:09 PM

No richard.

They were all seen the same way.

Besides which, we are taking about 11 year old kids now, so even if "chav" were just about behaviour, it would be an ill-judged and frankly quite tasteless term.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 01:19 PM

Lox...

Hopefuly clear up a few misconceptions here. I don't recall having disputed the meaning of chav. I could be wrong though, in which case I apologise and correct myself here. I don't recal getting particularly heated about it either but then again if I did blah-de-blah etc. What I did say was if the word is not acceptable then let me know what is and I will, in future, use that in your company. I think that is pretty faor.

I don't recall you letting me know what an acceptable term for an obnoxious, anti-social and loud mouthed person is but then again, if you did, can you repeat it please, because I missed it.

I DID retort to bad language, but if I remember rightly it was only to say - To those who would excuse the use of bad language - FUCK OFF. That, I feel, is quite ironic and was purposely so. For that I make no apology.

Finaly - you refer to me as 'she'. I am not. If you would care to check out any of my posts you will find that I am male, albeit I have undergone a recent sex change in name only. It realy is quite easy to spot and I think you may have known who I was before and just not realised.

Cheers

MP


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 01:50 PM

I KNEW it! ;-) You're a male parrot, aren't you, Mad Polly? Don't you get absolutely fed up with being offered "a cracker" all the time by ignorant, bigoted people? Most parrots I know get positively sick of hearing people say "Polly want a cracker?" over and over again, and I can definitely sympathize with their plight. It's rank stereotyping, it's stupid, it's specist, and we should all join in condemning it utterly and pointing out just how mean it is to denigrate parrots in that fashion.

I will be participating in an anti-prejudice rally in Ottawa this coming weekend. We will collectively express our FROTHING OUTRAGE about the bad treatment of "hosers" (sort of the Canadian version of "chavs"), gays, people who aren't absolutely gorgeous, short people, dimensionally larger than average people (they used to be called "f-t" but DON'T SAY IT!), pigmentally challenged people of various hues, people who just don't look like our personal favorite type of people look, AND PARROTS!!!

I can't wait to express my outrage over all this thoughtless prejudice and stereotyping. Positively chafing at the bit here. I need to VENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;-) I get a warm glow inside thinking of all the good this upcoming rally will do. You betcha!


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 03:05 PM

Mad Polly: "I DID retort to bad language, but if I remember rightly it was only to say - To those who would excuse the use of bad language - FUCK OFF. That, I feel, is quite ironic and was purposely so. For that I make no apology."

..and me, not knowing what a 'chav' is, nor do I think it's all that earth shattering, other than they are 'rude and foul mouthed' as a previous poster said,..are you a 'chav'?

Shit, I get a little salty myself!...but I don't play 'football'....Where am I? ..and where is my damned computer???

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 03:26 PM

Damn! I've been outed! I do indeed get fed up those people, LH, and if I hear the same old thing one more time... Well, all I can say is that it is a good job those cage bars are in the way! You know, I have read a few posts of yours before but none have ever struck home as much as the role play one, It is gem of wisdom amongst the dross (and I include the poop all over the bottom of my cage in that). Makes the rest of the arguments worth reading just to come to that one. Well, almost:-)

GfS No, you are not allowed to call me that. I am a classless (and tasteless), liguisticaly challenged victim of right wing oppresion.

MP


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Lox
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 03:26 PM

No hard feeling folks and no need for apologies.

We can definitely agree that issues surrounding the word "chav" are both sensitive and controversial.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 03:30 PM

No offence taken, Lox, so absolutely no hard feelings. We can agree that the issues are controversial at least. Now - how's about that alternative word I am after? :-)

MP


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 04:33 PM

The (symbolic) plight of caged birds seems quite apt to me, Mad Polly, so much so that I once wrote a protest song about it called "Polly Don't Want No Cracker!"

It's a little bit of humorous satire about condescension and similar issues. ;-) At any rate, the parrot in the song also warns what might happen if those cage bars weren't there.

Some of the verses:

Polly don't want no cracker!
Polly's had it up to here...
Polly don't want no cracker!
Polly's had it up to here...
You can take that goddamn cracker
And stick it in your ear!

Polly don't want no cracker!
Polly just wants some respect.
Polly don't want no cracker!
Polly just wants some respect.
You come pokin' around this cage, boy...
You're gonna get it in the neck!

Bridge:
Polly don't want no cracker
Polly want's a shot of love!
Polly don't want no cracker
Polly wants it from above
Polly don't want no cracker
Polly wants some kind of life!
Polly could use a nice fine-feathered wife...

And so on. ;-) Perhaps we are all somewhat akin to birds in cages, as we are so often trapped in cages of the mind.

I'm glad you liked the thing on role-playing. Rather than pointing fingers, I'd like to focus on the things that trip up all of us at times. We face them together and we must find ways of dealing effectively with them, and not waste our energy sniping at each other.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 05:10 PM

This first link is the 'chav' bit from the second link leading to the entire documentary about Britain in the 'noughties' 2000/2010.

'The Rise of the Chav' - trailer for BBC Documentary

BBC 'History of Now' documentary - The Story of the Noughties - Part 1 of 4 (the other 3 parts are there too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 06:01 PM

Love it, L :-) And I find the plight of the poor old caged parrot far from symbolic for reasons I would rather not say. But that is yet another role ;-)

Cheers

MP


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 06:12 PM

Mad Polly: "GfS No, you are not allowed to call me that. I am a classless (and tasteless), liguisticaly challenged victim of right wing oppresion...."

Hey, don't feel bad, but just to console you, the right is a victim of themselves, as the left. I have given this analogy before, but maybe before your time on here..so here it is:
You get into the ring with a boxer; he hits you with a right, and another right..then a left hook, another right, and two more lefts. The problem is us wee folk victims keep focusing on the which hand the blow comes from....BUT, its the same boxer!!!
Only the clueless try to land blows on the boxer's hands....."

Think on it.

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 07:14 PM

That's right. You don't hit the boxer's hands to take him down. You nail him right dead center if you want to take him down. That requires getting past his right hand and his left hand to the central controlling intelligence/power combo which guides both hands.

That is also the controlling intelligence/power combo which finances the campaigns, sets up the voting districts, runs the political commercials, arranges the big contracts, owns the mass media, etc.

Tricky business taking this boxer down. What I think is that he will eventually fall under his own weight. What happens after that is unclear, but there will be much collateral damage, that's for sure.

In the meantime, I try to set my own house (my life, that is) in order as best I can, and I have friends on both the Right and the Left, most of them busy attacking the boxer's hands.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 07:25 PM

Little Hawk(yo-ho), when Dylan wrote "Times They Are A' Changin'" you'll note in the verse, "Come Senators Congressmen please heed the call, Don't stand in the doorway, don't block up the hall..." notice, he didn't specify either party!!!!


and just for good measure:

Come gather 'round people
Wherever you roam
And admit that the waters
Around you have grown
And accept it that soon
You'll be drenched to the bone
If your time to you
Is worth savin'
Then you better start swimmin'
Or you'll sink like a stone
For the times they are a-changin'.

Come writers and critics
Who prophesize with your pen
And keep your eyes wide
The chance won't come again
And don't speak too soon
For the wheel's still in spin
And there's no tellin' who
That it's namin'
For the loser now
Will be later to win
For the times they are a-changin'.

Come senators, congressmen
Please heed the call
Don't stand in the doorway
Don't block up the hall
For he that gets hurt
Will be he who has stalled
There's a battle outside
And it is ragin'
It'll soon shake your windows
And rattle your walls
For the times they are a-changin'.

Come mothers and fathers
Throughout the land
And don't criticize
What you can't understand
Your sons and your daughters
Are beyond your command
Your old road is
Rapidly agin'
Please get out of the new one
If you can't lend your hand
For the times they are a-changin'.

The line it is drawn
The curse it is cast
The slow one now
Will later be fast
As the present now
Will later be past
The order is
Rapidly fadin'
And the first one now
Will later be last
For the times they are a-changin'.

Bob Dylan


Some things either never change..or some of us saw it all along!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 07:34 PM

Yup. It's not a question of choosing between old established (and very corrupt) parties along old partisan divides. It's a question of choosing a brand new way of seeing things and doing things.

If people don't figure out how to do it for themselves willingly and by choice, I think necessity will eventually force them to.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 08:13 PM

"You don't hit the boxer's hands to take him down."

Forget about the boxer ... don't even get into the ring ... you be wasting time and energy ,playing their game, even if you do sock the opponent down right or left handed, cause he'll just get back up again sooner or later .... instead, check the bars down the street .... you'll probably find a good band playing.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 08:47 PM

". . . Pretty bird. Pretty bird. . . ."

Sorry. . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Smokey.
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 10:25 PM

I'm not sure why, but I feel this song should be here..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6ueUDQeWfc


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 11:46 PM

Hawkers: "If people don't figure out how to do it for themselves willingly and by choice, I think necessity will eventually force them to."

I think we're here, already! The Tea Party is an option being offered..BUT...as I've said before, I'm not with the party; I'm with the band!

Jeez, I'm starting to repeat myself!
(slow learners)

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Smokey.
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 12:00 AM


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 12:03 AM

Smokey is speechless!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Smokey.
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 12:40 AM

Uh... dunno how that happened.. call it quirky and unpredictable. Or minimalist self-expression. There are probably deep psychological reasons.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Smokey.
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 12:40 AM

200


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: LadyJean
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 12:57 AM

I remember Jean Redpath being funny about the fact that British and Americans use different words for things. Though not so many as you might think, here in Western PA. The local dialect includes a lot of Scots words. (We redd up, instead of clean up, and streets are slippy in the winter.) She seemed very unBritishly amused by our differences.

In the U.S. if you say, "It's in the boot," someone will explain, somewhat sheepishly, "Uh over here we call usually call it a trunk." In England if you say, "It's in the trunk." Someone will say sharply, "That's boot!" It's not what you say, it's the way that you say it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 03:11 AM

LadyJean - have you learned nothing on this thread? You must not tar everyone with the same brush. If you label everyone in England as speaking in the same sharp tone you are as guilty demeaning a whole race. We are nothing but the victims of circumstance and resent the imperialist oppresion laid on us by our American masters and we will fight back in the only way we know - by being loud mouthed and rude! All we need is a little love and attention and we will act like normal peace loving New-Yorkers...

( Big Grin btw - but I am sure you realised)

MP


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 04:27 AM

GfS - the thing about the boxer and the hands - very neat analogy if I may say so!


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Penny S.
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 04:37 AM

LadyJean may have come across the lady (her preferred term I suspect, but there may be others more appropriate) from Surrey (presumed) who entered into conversation (but see below) with a lady from Canada I was travelling with, in Dubrovnik.
My companion was buying things in the Old Pharmacy, and commented that she wasn't sure of the equivalent value of the euros.
"Typical of you Americans, the value of money doesn't matter!" interjects the Brit of whom I am ashamed.
My companion, in a voice dripping ice, "I'll have you know I am Canadian."
"No difference," retorts the upperclass chav.
People like that I have to apologise for, and that includes the people who "correct" LadyJean's vocabulary.

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 06:37 AM

The full version of this wonderful speech is in the 'Re-Thinking Education' thread.

Ken Robinson on Changing Education Paradigms


If you want to figure out why so many kids are switching off from wanting to be educated, many of the answers are in that brilliant speech.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 06:50 AM

I have to admit I have on occasion encountered rudeness - ignorance really, as described in Penny's thread and from people who should be old enough to know better. In Cuba one particular older women moaned and groaned about every single little thing you could imagine. Not getting water always on time in the room, the room wasn't good enough, didn't like the trips. mosquitos, you name it there was something wrong with it. She had a tantrum because her wine wasn't on the table ready as soon as she walked in to the restaurant, the place was too hot (unbelievably) and when hotel staff were falling over themselves to make things ok her middle-aged male companion accused them of 'only being after the pesos'. Obviously the thought about reading up on anything about the culture before taking a holiday like that hadn't crossed their minds I shouldn't think. You don't have to know every single detail about Cuba or anywhere like that but it helps to understand a little bit about the people etc. With role models like that you cannot blame the young. I could have been equally rude and suggested that they stick to Benidorm or Blackpool in future but that would have made me as bad.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 02:27 PM

GUEST,Shimrod: "GfS - the thing about the boxer and the hands - very neat analogy if I may say so!"

You know, I say a lot of stuff on here, that somehow is taken wrong, for I think people tend to imagine me using a 'hostile' voice tone..when actually, I'm FAR from it. Some opinions I lay down, are just based on FACTS instead of an opinion, formed from trying to 'uphold' some politically based reasoning, that has co-opted a lot of us in music, particularly 'folk' music, which was noted for it's protest songs, from the sixties...so the ASSUMPTION is that 'folkies' and liberal causes are synonymous...BUT..clearly, they are NOT!

All the 'isms' and 'tics' describing ANY political beliefs are a direct 'chip away' at our Freedoms and Liberties, and are only being propagated to enhance the power base of the top guys, promoting all those same 'isms' and 'tics'. It is a major deceptive LIE perpetrated on our nations, as a whole!!!....and behind the scenes, the 'apparent' opposing 'leaders' are all in bed with each other, and whomever is greasing them with the MONEY, to promote furthering their own goals...AT THE COST OF OUR LIBERTY, FREEDOM, AND NATIONAL IDENTITIES. The fat cats at the top, couldn't give a rat's ass about the well being of ANY nation's population being free or productive, UNLESS it serves them! Remember, they can afford to go ANYWHERE on this planet, and dust off their shoes at any one country, once their done using them up!!..including the UK, the USA or anywhere that they can utilize that country's wealth, and military, to accomplish their goals..and they will do that, till they use them up!!...and all the while quell the unrest with political platitudes, on how much they 'care' and are really 'helping'.

If you have ANY doubt, whatsoever, compare what they're SAYING, to what they are really DOING!!!

So, if it appears that sometime I step on some toes, or say something 'politically incorrect' too bad!!...I'm NOT the one hustling you!!!..but I might still just rip away at the misinformation that is being propagated..that some on here, and other places are succumbing to...to all our destruction!

Peace, Love, Freedom and Liberty!

GfS

P.S. Besides, once you are a parent, and/or a musician, your path is already clearly laid out for you! Best to you!..(even though sometimes I call you 'Nimrod')...wink!


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 02:35 PM

Best to you too GfS. You can carry on calling me 'Nimrod' if you like - I've been called worse!


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: gnu
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 03:24 PM

"Nimrod"... hunter or a fool who calls people silly names.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 21 Apr 11 - 12:12 AM

SH-imrod: "Best to you too GfS. You can carry on calling me 'Nimrod' if you like...."

Oh goodie goodie goodie goodie goodie goodie goodie goodie !!!
wink!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 21 Apr 11 - 01:33 AM

Hey..i just found this old relic from about three years ago......
(I sure have been pissing off a lot of political party pushers for a while..BUT..I've been right!!! NOTE the date!:

Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 02:21 AM

Sorry, forgot to post name...

From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 03:20 PM

If Obama is elected things will turn around quickly.

This is complete nonsense!!!
I've told you a dozen or more times, that regardless who 'wins' the election, that the dollar was going to be de-valuated, after the election(if it can wait that long). I've said a lot of 'right on' things in here, and all I get is arguments from starry eyed 'kumbaya-ers'....even when what I've said comes true in front of your very eyes! Not to mention shpeels on responsibility, in regards to reliance on the government for a number of things.

Obama wants to 'give' us all these entitlement programs, which no one can pay for! The government CAN NOT continue to print fiat money, to pay for any of it. Obama promises to cut capital gain taxes for small businesses..only problem is..small businesses don't pay captial gains taxes..they pay business income taxes..but you just keep lapping up this crap, like the good little media fed robots that this nation has become!

McCain is not much better! What you have here, is the two wings of a SOCIALIST party pushing through their agenda. I believe that this is the reason that so many people are undecided about who to vote for...nobody, in their gut feels 'right' about either one! Now we have had, for years, a capitalist/socialist system, but that, dear boys and girls, ladies and gentlemen, is about to change!! We are headed for a socialist republic...like the last 'SR' in USSR..which was (and is) an abysmal way of life. Gone will be all the perks of entitlements that we've grown so accustomed to. Fuel is going to go through the roof, credit, gone..inflation rising faster than a woody in the morning! Retirement pensions will be meaningless, if even around...social security, a memory....Jobs?..forget it!..even those ones that American citizens 'wouldn't take, so the illegal aliens had them!..All those lame-ass propaganda nonsense talking points will make you sick, when before you embraced them. We've been had, by a corrupt(remember me mentioning that??) political agenda for decades!!..which I've been pointing out to you, and NOW THE MEDIA IS FINALLY 'BRINGING IT UP' occasionally. I've implored you, as writers, and musicians to sing, write and speak against it...what have I gotten??..zilch(except for a few)!!

Now is the time(maybe) to retrieve your heads from your posteriors, get off the bullshit party lines of idiocy, and get right...and confront it..ask the right questions..and in the meantime buckle your seat belts and and hang on...this is going to be a lot tougher that you've even imagined!

God Bless, and stay safe!
GfS

Anything like where we've managed to come around to???????

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 22 Apr 11 - 12:44 AM

I know, I know..things didn't turn out the way you thought it was planned..hell, I'd get pissed at the bullshit politicians, and make a concerted effort to filter out the lies, and emotional hoop-ti-doo, and stop shooting the messenger!..As per aforementioned, I'm on YOUR side!

Waving,

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Some people are so stupid...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Apr 11 - 05:34 PM

On the bus on the way back from Manchester today - The 37, oddly enough, the one that goes via Solfod Preeky, a young bloke, obviously worse for wear, was asked by the driver to show his ticket again as the driver had not seen it properly. The youth in question slapped his ticket on the the screen so hard I am surpised it dod not crack, while slurring the words, "You have fuckin well seen it now haven't you, twat?". As he staggered up the stairs the bus lurched forward and the lad fell back down again, landing in a heap on the floor. The driver stopped of course and insisted that the ambulance was called but the young man would have none of it. Pushing the driver aside he staggered back off the bus.

Now, I am not saying the driver lurched the bus on purpose, but do you reckon it was divine intervention..? :-)

MP


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