BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 May 11 - 03:01 AM

No, Taconicus, ObL did not get even that process.

US forces, without proper authority, secretly entered the territory of a nation with which the US was not at war, proposed unlawfully to kidnap someone by force, and when he resisted, killed him.

Even if there had been a properly declared war, international law provides that one may not assassinate the leader of one's enemy. The presence of an Imam to carry out Islamic rituals strongly suggests that death rather than capture was at least a significant objective.


The death of ObL may turn out to be a good thing, although there are risks that he may continue to be adulated as duly executed Irish terrorists once were, and there are risks that the absence of a body to exhibit may lead to some remaining unconvinced of the death. But it is silly to pretend that it was achieved in accordance with law.

Without rule of law the only remaining authority is might - "might is right".

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 03 May 11 - 02:44 AM

"He was just so angry we that we supported Kuwait"

I've no idea what Bin Laden's motivation was for bombing the twin towers, apart from the statement that he made describing his motivations. In which he goes into detail about the American-Israeli alliance (and in which he makes no mention of either Kuwait or Iraq):

    "Allah knows it did not cross our minds to attack the towers but after the situation became unbearable and we witnessed the injustice and tyranny of the American-Israeli alliance against our people in Palestine and Lebanon, I thought about it. And the events that affected me directly were that of 1982 and the events that followed – when America allowed the Israelis to invade Lebanon, helped by the U.S. Sixth Fleet. As I watched the destroyed towers in Lebanon, it occurred to me punish the unjust the same way (and) to destroy towers in America so it could taste some of what we are tasting and to stop killing our children and women."
– Osama bin Laden, 2004


It's fair enough to discuss what might have been additional motivations - but as someone said below - those were the motivations he publicly stated and as such I have no reason to assume his motivations were other than those which he publicly stated.

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 May 11 - 02:18 AM

Kevin,
"Well, he would say that. Can you imagine him saying "It doesn't really make much difference"?"

I can imagine the Guardian saying it, but they don't.
Strong letter required?

The extremist liberal view, pity the perpetrator and blame the victim, has gone too far here.

He was just so angry we that we supported Kuwait with the blessing of every other Arab and Muslim government.
He should be allowed to live out his life in luxury in a modern city.
No.

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: artbrooks
Date: 03 May 11 - 01:15 AM

Webster, invasion: "an entering or being entered by an enemy military force". Perhaps you have 'invasion' and 'occupation' confused?

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 03 May 11 - 12:57 AM

I didn't see a prior link to this:

World Leader Comments on Osama

Warning: "Frank" language.

John

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: josepp
Date: 03 May 11 - 12:39 AM

////don't really expect either of those scenarios to occur. I just feel that the world has become a little less safe from the US, and I wonder what the US response would be if a high priority target terrorist were snatched from US soil by the SAS without the White House being notified.////

What right would the US have to complain if we kept telling the SAS that we didn't have that high priority terrorist target when they can see he's living in Washington DC six blocks from the White House?

Pakistan is untrustworthy and a completely unworthy ally. If we have to depend on them to get anything done it will never happen. They have no integrity, their own word means nothing to them. They've taken our money and spent on themselves. They have breached international relations not the US. I've had a bellyful of Pakistan and their lying, dysfunctional bullshit.

Obama got it right. If they want to be trusted, they need to be trustworthy. They are not. And from I see they never will be. If Pakinstan had known we were going in after Bin Laden you can bet he would not have been there by the time we arrived. I'd trust Saudi Arabia before I trusted ever thought of trusting Pakistan and I don't trust Saudi Arabia one wit.

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: josepp
Date: 03 May 11 - 12:24 AM

////Josepp, it would be a great surprise to a number of friends of mine to be told that Coalition troops did not cross the borders of Iraq. Wonder where they were, really? This might refresh your memory.////

That's not an invasion. That was to get them out of kuwait. When they were chased back far enough, we left.

Try again.

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: LadyJean
Date: 03 May 11 - 12:22 AM

President Obama began as a trial lawyer. My father was also a trial lawyer as is my sister. If there's one thing a lawyer who tries cases can do it's speak and speak well! It's their stock in trade. President Obama has, undoubtably, had plenty of experience speaking off the cuff, and he can, without doubt, do it better than most people. He does not need a teleprompter.
Bin Laden's unhappy demise means Obama can scale back military operations without looking weak. That will save lives.

I composed this in the fall of 2001. This will, probably be the last time I write it.

                   OSAMA BIN LADEN
             (With Appologies to Leigh Hunt)

Osama Bin Laden, may his tribe decrease,
Came home one night from disturbing the peace.
And in his cave was amazed to see
An angel writing on a gold PC.
Wow! said Osama, looking awed,
Are you listing the names of those who love God.
Nope, said the angel, this database
lists everyone who spits in God's face.
Great! said Osama, list away.
But you'll have to list the whole U.S.A.
With their Baywatch babes and their rock and roll.
Theirs is a nation without any soul.
Said the angel, Osama take a hint
Conisder as I save and print,
The things you do in Allah's name.
Osama was never quite the same,
For on that printout, as I know you guessed,
Lo! Bin Laden's name lead all the rest.

(Though the "Reverend" Fred Phelps ran a close second.)

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: J-boy
Date: 03 May 11 - 12:00 AM

It's a strange but true fact that Osama Bin Laden was once our ally. The CIA and Osama helped us supply the mujahadeen in their holy war against the Soviets. Some of those weapons we supplied are now being used against us. Round and round it goes.

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Bobert
Date: 02 May 11 - 11:25 PM

End the geo-political war thinking...

Ya' know, Rodney King understands it better than the "collective" thinking world: "Get the heck along"...

No...

Make that "Get the fuck along" if that's what it takes to make it cool...

Just do it...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 May 11 - 10:55 PM

I am no more celebrating the death of Osama bin Laden than I celebrated the death of Idi Amin or Saddam Hussein. Saddam had a trial, in his own country, and he was punished under his country's laws. Amin died a "natural death," as I remember. bin Laden had declared "a Holy War" against the US:

"We declared jihad against the US government, because the US government is unjust, criminal and tyrannical. It has committed acts that are extremely unjust, hideous and criminal whether directly or through its support of the Israeli occupation."
                      - Osama bin Laden - to CNN in March 1997

If someone declares war on me and takes violent actions against me I will defend myself as I find appropriate to the situation. Whether or not this applies to nations I don't know.

I do know that a human being (three or four, actually -- I've read different accounts) was killed in a firefight. I can wish that that person had been taken alive, but he himself said

We love death. The U.S. loves life. That is the difference between us two.

Some do not believe he is dead: he is. This is the man who said

I'm fighting so I can die a martyr and go to heaven to meet God. Our fight now is against the Americans.

All I can say is that he got his wish. I neither lament nor rejoice; I only hope that his death helps lower the level of terrorism in the world. It will never go away -- there is no guarantee of safety and security and there never was.

What I do hope is that the combat in Afghanistan and elsewhere ends soon.

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: kendall
Date: 02 May 11 - 10:49 PM

Ok, let's split a few hairs. What Osama objected to was our invasion of Muslin holy ground whether it be Iraq or Kuwait. We are still there and they still hate us for it.
Too many people believe that Bush lie about our freedom being the cause of their hate. Bollox!

Comparing Bin Laden to Clyde Barrow just doesn't fly. Barrow was seveley abused in prison and he vowed to get even. He did.

Subject: Obama Bin Laden ???
From: Taconicus
Date: 02 May 11 - 10:38 PM

Justice requires due process. – R. Bridge

He got the kind of due process that is due an enemy on the battlefield, as appropriate.

Oh, and by the way, a number of FOX stations mistakenly (yeah right) put up headlines or crawlers saying that Obama bin Laden was dead. No shit. Go Google it. – Tia

Not exactly, Tia. A local Fox affiliate station in Sacramento, California did show a headline that read: "Obama bin Laden dead". But mentioning that as an example of media bias at Fox News is disingenuous, and only shows the bias of the poster, because it doesn't mention all the other stations that made the same easy mistake. Leftwinger Keith Olbermann made the same slip – blogging that George W Bush had "deprioritised the hunt for Obama". An MSNBC correspondent tweeted: "Obama shot and killed". In fact, the mistake was so common that a number of other anchors or journalists also got their Obamas and Osamas mixed up, including at CNN and ABC News stations.

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Bill D
Date: 02 May 11 - 10:32 PM

"Justice requires due process." Spoken like one who makes his living following specific FORMS of due process....and there in nothing wrong with that, when it is both possible and appropriate.

...but 'due process' can defined in various ways. Formal 'legal' due process is only one way. When a terrorist or other serious criminal had vowed NOT to be taken alive, and is protected in various ways, justice can be served in other ways.

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Bobert
Date: 02 May 11 - 10:29 PM

Well, I didn't learn of this until just a couple of hours ago... Been kinda busy... Haven't read all this thread either...

But...

... as much as I hate seeing people killed for their ideas I guess I'd rather see them get off'd than a couple hundred innocent people... Take Saddam... We could have off'd him and saved 4000 Americans and maybe a million Iraqis??? Yeah, that would have been messed up to have off'd Saddam but just do the "numbers game"???

Nah, this all boils down to ending the geo-political war that has been going on since WW II... I mean, we keep havng these "proxy wars"... Problem is that real people get real dead in them...

In the words of the late and great Waylon Jennings, "We need a change..."

But, hey, at least the Repubs gott eat a little crow pie tonight so Obama has a couple days off from the "birther" loonies... I mean, a couple days off from loonies ain't a bad thing...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: EBarnacle
Date: 02 May 11 - 10:20 PM

I heard and interesting report on one of the financial sites. It seems that the long term effect of taking out OBL may be that the funding of al-Qaeda will dry up. Apparently, it has become increasingly difficult for AQ fundraisers to raise money unless they were able to get back to OBL to verify their legitimacy.

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Janie
Date: 02 May 11 - 10:04 PM

The following link was posted by a fellow Mudcatter on their facebook page. Without that person's permission, I'm not comfortable with attributing that person's posting of the link.

Very thoughtful, what is expressed.

http://ethicalplatform.net/leaders/2011/05/a-time-to-mourn/

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 May 11 - 10:00 PM

Justice requires due process.

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Taconicus
Date: 02 May 11 - 09:46 PM

There's a difference between celebrating the death of Osama bin Laden as an expression of hatred, and celebrating his death as a victory against Al Qaeda, which it is. For great many reasons, his death is a big advance in that war, which is still continuing. It's not morally wrong to celebrate it for that reason.

Nor is it wrong to feel that it is a victory for justice.

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: artbrooks
Date: 02 May 11 - 09:37 PM

Josepp, it would be a great surprise to a number of friends of mine to be told that Coalition troops did not cross the borders of Iraq. Wonder where they were, really? This might refresh your memory.

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 May 11 - 09:25 PM

I don't have the smallest smidgeon of concern for Osama Bin Laden, or any other terrorist. As far as I am concerned the only just end for them is death.

I'm glad he has gone although the idea that his death makes anyone safer is naive in the extreme.

I am concerned by the establishment of what I consider to be a dangerous precedent.

Ex Pakistan leader Musharraf was interviewed on BBC TV News this morning, and his views are very similar to my own. American special forces violated the sovereignty of an ally (nominally at least) in an action which would in the past have been considered an act of war.

Now it has been said above that there was tacit agreement with the current Pakistan government (as yet unconfirmed), but a precedent has still been set, of military action in a foreign sovereign state without the specific consent or knowledge of that state's rulers.

So, when the US gets its next GeeDub type President, we might expect some nasty situations to develop.

Or maybe we won't have to wait that long. Could we see Assange surgically removed from Sweden, or that young fool who hacked US computers taken off English soil.

I don't really expect either of those scenarios to occur. I just feel that the world has become a little less safe from the US, and I wonder what the US response would be if a high priority target terrorist were snatched from US soil by the SAS without the White House being notified.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: josepp
Date: 02 May 11 - 09:03 PM

////josepp, better get out the bifocals and look again. The first invasion of Iraq happened in 1991.
Osama also said they hate us for the reasons I already stated.////

Newsflash: there was no invasion of Iraq in 1991. They were pushed out of Kuwait. They were not pursued across the borders of Iraq and Hussein was left in power. THAT's what Osama didn't like.

Bin Laden and Hussein despised one another. Why do you think there were no Iraqi hijackers on 9-11 and no al-Qaida in Iraq? The US did him the biggest favor by taking out Saddam. No matter what Bin Laden says (and who in their right mind would take anything he says at face value?), Saddam hated him and would have had him killed if he dared set foot in Iraq which is why he never did.

Osama Bin Laden gave us George Bush the dictator, he gave us the REAL Invasion of Iraq, he gave us the War on Terror, he gave us the no-fly list and TSA body searches and the Patriot Act and the rise of Iran. If it hadn't been for him, Geroge Bush would have been done in 4 years. So am I glad he's dead? You're fuckin' A right I'm glad he's dead. I wish he'd died back in 1998 and saved the world a whole lot of trouble.

So, in many ways, he won. He got what he wanted. So fuck him.

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Janie
Date: 02 May 11 - 08:00 PM

skarpi, I can't simply let your post stand, even knowing you are a popular figure here, and I am likely to be castigated for commenting.

First, let me say I do not celebrate the death of bin Laden. I do not celebrate the death of any person. I accept your antipathy and complete but somewhat (though not entirely) irrational antipathy and mistrust toward the United States as your right, and of course understand that you do not advocate violence toward us. I also accept that every person's point of view is valid from their perspective.   

What you wrote was.... I don`t believe that
Bin laden was the head of the attack on twin tower ....

Osama bin Laden very publicly claimed credit for the attack on the Twin Towers. He was a very smart man, and very certain of his righteousness and his mission. He went to great pains, and made considerable personal sacrifice, to organize and provide the seed financing for a terrorist group known as Al Qaeda, and in his righteous certainty, sowed more seeds of hate and terrorism around the world.

The implication of your statement, intended or not, is that the United States staged the attacks on September 11, 2001 for the sake of oil.    I find that both absurd and offensive.

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Joe_F
Date: 02 May 11 - 08:00 PM

Good riddance, anyway.
ObSongs:
    We will heave him down into some dark hole
    Where the sharks'll have his body and the Devil have his soul.

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: bobad
Date: 02 May 11 - 07:36 PM

For those wringing their hands over the legality of the op, I heard a spokesman for the Pakistani foreign service saying that Pakistan had an agreement with the US that if they located Bin Laden in Pakistan they could take him out.

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Janie
Date: 02 May 11 - 07:23 PM

A somewhat thoughtful article.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/HEALTH/05/02/osama.bin.laden.emotions/index.html?hpt=T1

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Janie
Date: 02 May 11 - 07:11 PM

Thanks for that To Kill a Mockingbird clip, Wesley.

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 02 May 11 - 07:06 PM

Actually Donuel's characterization of the FOX coverage is pretty good. They interviewed *only* former Bush admin people (Chertoff, Perino, etc.) and lauded the information gained at Gitmo by enhanced interrogation,nary a mention of the current president. It was a day-long celebration of GWB.

Oh, and by the way, a number of FOX stations mistakenly (yeah right) put up headlines or crawlers saying that Obama bin Laden was dead. No shit. Go Google it.

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: gnu
Date: 02 May 11 - 06:43 PM

Wesley S... the video... indeed. Well "said". RATHER well said indeed. My hat is off to you sir.

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Janie
Date: 02 May 11 - 06:41 PM

Well said, Jeri.

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Wesley S
Date: 02 May 11 - 06:39 PM

Maybe another film clip would help.....

The Rule of Law

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Wesley S
Date: 02 May 11 - 06:36 PM

Check out the film clip Greg. That should explain to to you.

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 May 11 - 06:32 PM

Kinda puts the Land Of The Free on the same level as the Tay-Rists, don't it, Wes?

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 May 11 - 06:31 PM

Hey, Wes- what about that "rule of law", & "due process" bullshit, eh? Just something to be disregarded as it suits, right?

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Wesley S
Date: 02 May 11 - 06:24 PM

"Makes me so proud, I could just shit. "

Please don't. One of you is enough....

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 May 11 - 06:12 PM

Actually, Osama Bin Laden didn't kill anyone.

His minions did.

In which case, why hasn't Navy Seal Team 6 put bullets into Henry Kissinger's head?

Ain't that just the American Way, tho - an extra-legal assasination without trial.

Makes me so proud, I could just shit.

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Wesley S
Date: 02 May 11 - 06:11 PM

This will show what I think happened yesterday:


Youtube Filmclip


Did he feel happy about what happened - no

Did he celebrate - no

Would he do it again tomorrow - you bet.

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 02 May 11 - 06:10 PM

The killing of Bin Laden will not stop the AQ carrying out further attacks, however it has removed a figurehead and an important one at that.

Had he been captured alive then that would have led to kidnappings and deaths worldwide in order to free him. So it was a right decision to take him out.

AQ will of course continue their attacks and continue to promote hate on non muslims, they now have a saint on which to hang their beliefs.

Been listening to the BBC news and it appears that he was given a respectful sea burial, not just dumped. That at least shows some forethought on the part of the people behind the operation.

I can never see the end of the terrorism, it will never go away, it is now so deeply rooted and entrenched in all parts of the middle east and quite honestly there is no one who can stop it unless you take out all fundementalists of all religeons and that is never going to happen.

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: gnu
Date: 02 May 11 - 05:29 PM

Richard... "Much the same I think applies to attempts to kill Gadaffi - the distinction between "control and command" and him personally being a silly and transparent sophistry."

Indeed, such is, at the VERY least, an insult (sorry for such a POOR term) to all. It is inane.

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 May 11 - 05:10 PM

Donuel,

Once again, you have done BRILL with your parody skills. PLEASE send it to Rachel Maddow or give me permission to do so?

Jeri, well said, I agree.

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Taconicus
Date: 02 May 11 - 05:01 PM

Donuel, I've been watching all three cable networks sequentially, and most of what you say about the difference between the coverage by the three networks is false. Perhaps you're hearing the coverage through your own perceptual filter.

FOX said his body was burned and then buried at sea.
False. Fox News says buried, not burned, "according to Islamic tradition." Not once did they say burned.

FOX mentioned Obama by name less than 6 times all day unless it was a quote by Dick Cheney who mentioned Obama by name. Otherwise FOX only says "The President". George W Bush is mentioned by name more than Obama.
I've heard no perceptible difference in the coverage in this regard between the three cable networks.

[On FOX] Obama is critisized for his handling of this mission.
I've been watching since last night, and I've heard no criticism whatsoever on Fox News (or the other networks) for the handling of this mission. In fact, they've been outright laudatory.

FOX is saying that this mission is hard proof for an increased use of rendition and special interrogation techniques.
Fox News did mention that the intel for the mission was obtained by rendition, and suggested this would be evidence in favor of those techniques, but they never used the term "hard proof" or anything like it. I believe this may be your editorial contribution.

Both NBC and FOX have only seldom mentioned the killing of his adult son and the wounding of his wife.
No perceptible difference between the three cable networks in reporting this.

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: gnu
Date: 02 May 11 - 04:56 PM

JtS... explain my question...

Okay, here it is... again... but MUCH more clearly asked.

In light of the varied discussions herein, I have a question... in the "Bible' or in the "Torah", are there any "directives" to kill people of other faiths simply based on their faith?

Sorry about the typo. I am sure that is what threw you off.

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 May 11 - 04:26 PM

I can't see how stuff about a "end of a threat" are relevant - Bin Laden is no less of a threat dead than alive.

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 May 11 - 04:23 PM

While there may be occasions in which police or military in a police role may lawfully use "deadly force" without the target having been lawfully condemned to death, for example when someone is lawfully required to yield and in stead reaches for a weapon, what legal right did US forces have to detain someone in Pakistan?

I am quite concerned that if this US action was lawful (as distinct from desirable - I think it quite likely that it was desirable although I worry about the creation of a martyr and the absence of populist proof of death) then there may be many outside the USA who might claim that similar attempts to seize someone in the USA would be lawful and that their resistance rendered killing them lawful.

Much the same I think applies to attempts to kill Gadaffi - the distinction between "control and command" and him personally being a silly and transparent sophistry.

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Jeri
Date: 02 May 11 - 04:10 PM

My life was directly, but only moderately affected by him for about 3 weeks in June, 1998.

He was a threat before 9/11, and he would have continued to be a threat as long as he lived. I don't want to celebrate, either. The only option was to get rid of him, and while people are likely glad that one less killer is out in the world, nobody, including me, wants to think about what had be done to eliminate him.

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Bill D
Date: 02 May 11 - 03:59 PM

I repeat what I said above" "If we had gotten bin Laden at Tora Bora 9 years ago, there would STILL have been reactions from those who viewed him as a hero!"

Likewise..If we had gotten bin Laden at Tora Bora 9 years ago, or even had been successful in those several years BEFORE 9/11, there would have been little concern over our motives, or our methods! If a bully hits you, and it takes you awhile to get justice, are you less entitled?

Bin Laden was a symbol to terrorists and a future danger if we had simply gotten tired of looking and given up.

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 May 11 - 03:55 PM

"...You say "moral decadence" as if it were a bad thing. Sorry, but neither country has anything to apologize for. Some folks seem to feel that the only defense is to grab your ankles and bend over and apologize for creating the situation. Sorry, it doesn't work that way...."


Ron, when Al used that term, to me it meant moral decay, morals thrown out the window, morals and outlook going down, down, deeper and down.

Whether we like it or not, that's exactly what has happened in both our countries. Personally, I don't like it.

Moral decadence, to me, has *nothing* to do with women being treated as equals...(this is in relation to jacqui's post) I've said many a time that until the women of the Middle East rise up against how they are treated nothing will move forwards respect-wise. Of course women should have the same rights as men, be free to make their own choices, etc..I don't argue with that at all.

What saddens me is how things have progressed in our country these days, to a state of *anything* goes, because it seems to me that so many folks, men and women alike, have lost respect for themselves over here and in the USA.   We really could do with folks putting their clothes back on a bit more, raising the standard of behaviour and having both respect for others and respect for themselves.

That's what I was talking about, nowt to do with women's freedom etc, which goes without saying.

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Amos
Date: 02 May 11 - 03:48 PM

Let me point out that this entire operation probably cost less than fifty million, including choppers and intel. Imagine if we had categorized this man as a high-pri international criminal target of special ops ten years ago? We'd have had him by 2005, I imagine.

Ten years ago a bad policy call by a stupid individual put us instead on a course of invasion and war. PErhaps there's a lewsson to be learned here?


A

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 May 11 - 03:43 PM

Gnu, I'd like for you to explain your question a bit. You seem to be implying that Bin Laden was killed for his faith. That's not like you at all so I am sure that I missed something.

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 May 11 - 03:41 PM

I don't think that the people celebrating V-E day and V-J were celebrating the tens of thousands of deaths in Nagasaki and Dresden. I think that they were happy and proud that their side had prevailed and an arduous and trying period of the war was over.

I'm not saying that the manhunt for Bin Laden was equal to the war in scale or cost to the country. On the other hand the celebration on the streets for the end of the threat of Bin Laden also was much smaller.