Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 03:50 PM

False equivalence, Jim. We are talking about singing minority interest songs in limited venues to a tiny audience. Not major race related hate crimes.

Finished , I think

No you don't. You are not getting away with that "mask slipping" comment that easily. Just what are you implying?

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 04:00 PM

"No, I think this thread is about whether traditional songs with racist meanings should be sung at all,"

Pick out my words as much as you like, Maggie. No sweat. But I don't agree with this. To couch it in different terms, you appear to be saying that there's a choice between banning the songs or not. That "no" sounds rather authoritarian to me. Well that's a bad choice. It's been well said by a number of posters here that there are many subjects in songs that could offend someone or other. Rebel Irish songs could whip up enough hate to threaten people, for example. But I'm a very simple man. So all I want to know is (a) who decides what songs shouldn't be sung at all, or (b) why we can't, in civilised and democratic countries, simply and tacitly police ourselves? See my earlier remark about the ethos of folk clubs...So, really, what's the issue? Much more to say but I'm getting fed up of repeating myself...

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 04:20 PM

Never heard about Golden Slippers (whether "on them" or "Oh, dem") except on the soundtracks of Westerns, but I'm certain to hear "Dixie" at least once each Summer, followed by "Battle-Hymn of the Republic", since this particular medley is part of the repertoire of a regular at a pub in a village in Ireland. Probably many people sing this pairing, and no doubt there was some thought of "reconciliation" when Elvis put them together, but it's unlikely that a Civil War in another country would be foremost among listeners' thoughts when hearing songs more than a century and a half old. I can't sing the first easily, but from memory supplied the singer with a verse printed in a song-book of the late nineteenth century but never heard, as far as I'm aware:

"[two-syllable female name] married Will the weaver,
Will had a face like a butcher's cleaver, Look away! Look away...&c.

No doubt this particular combination of old songs will indeed come under scrutiny in these interesting times. I think it was one of the Adams politicians in America who considered the Slavery issue to be, as it were, "unfinished business" from their War of Independence. Sometimes, issues are not fully settled the first time round; 1789, 1830, 1848, 1870 is an interesting sequence from the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries.

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: GUEST,BlackAcornUK
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 04:28 PM

Just catching up. It'll be no surprise that I tend to agree with Jim on the points covered above.

Jumping back to my own last interactions - this strikes me as a fairly contradictory comment, Dave:

'No. Sorry. Pure cop out. All you have done is passed the responsibility elsewhere. I shall rephrase the question. What lyrics should cross the line to get you disciplined at work, kicked out of a political party or censured at a music venue? There are the obvious ones that have been mentioned. There are lyrics that are offensive to many other people. Should they all be banned or censored? And, yet again, who decides?'

Surely the 'cop-out' is to reject the challenge of trying to locate the line at all?

The 'lines' I refer to above aren't accidental or arbitrary. On the issue of racial hatred, we're fortunate to have laws that are broadly in alignment with prevailing public opinion and which offer a degree of protection to those most likely to be harmed - either directly by hate speech consciously targeted at them, or by the pernicious environment that casual racism allows to flourish.

Feeding into the law - but going further - are a set of social norms that form a part of the same consensus. Of course, we use these to relate to each other (but they can slip their moorings on the internet between strangers; though of course I can't be certain, I'm cautiously confident that Steve *wouldn't* be boldly writing the n-word in letters to his doctor or dentist). Basically, they help to establish what sort of speech is unacceptable or unreasonable in our interactions, beyond what is not actually illegal.

It's also according to these norms that things like the disciplinary processes of the workplace and mainstream membership bodies are oriented.

These norms undergo a certain degree of flux, but over time (and barring major sudden realignments in either direction) they tend to incrementally shift towards greater protections for groups that might be subject to prejudice. Likewise, this social contract often shifts towards increasing empathy for those same groups, and appreciation of the reasons to not flaunt words that - whatever the intention - can cause real hurt.

So - when tackling the vexed question of, 'where is the line to be drawn?' - pointing to these sorts of procedures isn't 'copping out', it's navigating by way-markers established by a social consensus that we all play a part in.

Some may wish to go further (and may get there over time, as sensibilities are continuously recalibrated); some may reject this line. But, in the absence of universal agreement between individuals (which, as we see here, is difficult!), the social consensus in as far as it can be discerned - ie, in the policies of the organisations that we all help to shape the culture of - seems to me to be a perfectly reasonable guide.

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 04:48 PM

Good Grief, will the Ligger catch the Pike

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 04:51 PM

Just a long winded way of saying that someone else draws the line. Copping out is the shortened version.

I will try again. Why do you rail at someone wanting to perform an historically accurate song yet you are quite happy to inflict your nonsensical Christmas carols on innocent atheists like me that have gone to the pub for a quiet pint?

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 05:02 PM

innocent atheist,is that not an oxymoron?

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 05:08 PM

No.

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 05:10 PM

No, I'm not saying to ban anything, Steve, I'm pointing out why singers should have the common sense to simply stop singing those songs in public gatherings, and offering rationale why.

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: GUEST,BlackAcornUK
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 05:10 PM

Hi Dave, it's not someone else choosing. It's the choice that the collective makes, to do the least harm and the least offence, in the face of the inevitability of assorted individuals all having different views.

As I say, the 'cop-out' is to insist the line can't be drawn.

I'm an atheist too as it happens. Presumably you've prowled my timeline to see that I started a thread about pub carolling. Presumably as a denizen of this forum, you know enough about said traditions to know that a big chunk have little discernible Christian content, or else muddles of the Christian and the secular or even the pagan/profane.

And, it does seem disingenuous to try and present this whole discussion as being about singing historically accurate songs.

It isn't - it's about, what are the parameters - if any - within which those songs can be sung, weighing up contemporary morality and sensibilities; and, more importantly, whether casual usage of certain vocabulary or material can create a substrate for genuine hatred to flourish.

But in any case, as you know - in its narrative, 'Little Sir Hugh' isn't a 'historically accurate song'. It's a medieval piece of propaganda and religious incitement (shouldn't that affront your atheism?).

'Historical accuracy' - if that's your aim - would require that contextualisation. Which I think I and many others above have hinted at...?

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: GUEST,BlackAcornUK
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 05:11 PM

Totally agree, Stilly River Sage.

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 05:36 PM

"though of course I can't be certain, I'm cautiously confident that Steve *wouldn't* be boldly writing the n-word in letters to his doctor or dentist"

Just about the stupidest remark I've read on this board for many a long year.

So you're agreeing at last, Maggie. It's down to us reasonable people to decide what and how we put things out to our audiences. Let's not allow external authoritarian policing to prevail. We don't need it, do we?

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 05:48 PM

Why do you rail at someone wanting to perform an historically accurate song yet you are quite happy to inflict your nonsensical Christmas carols on innocent atheists like me that have gone to the pub for a quiet pint?
Codswallop. Dave, Church of England is the established christian church in England if you do not like someone singing christmas carols in a particular pub,go to a different pub., you live in a Christian Country in it is customary for people to sing christmas carols in pubs at christmas time in England, you remind me of Scrooge.Humbug
    If you lived in some Muslim countries you would not be allowed to drink alcohol it would be against the law of the land.
Consider yourself lucky

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 06:01 PM

Er, Dick, not really a Christian country, is it? Have you seen the latest pathetic church attendance figures? :-)

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 06:29 PM

Just to enlarge on that a bit, Dick, the singing of carols at Christmas and hymns at other times, as well as Songs Of Praise on the telly and Choral Evensong every day on the wireless, not to speak of the Sunday Service as I'm having my Sunday morning cup o'char in bed, are all accepted as rather benign impositions on us, whether we're Muslims, Hindus, Christians, atheists or none of the above. But just because we all shrug and smile indulgently at these things doesn't mean that they are actually benign. They are not. Historically, religion has been hand in glove with bigotry from all sides and has excused antisemitism, the Ayatollah, the Jewish State, Naziism, repression of minorities, Franco (hey, a daily communicant), imperialism, warmongering and the slave trade. "It's all right to take pubs over with carol-singing cos it's traditional" is not an argument for saying that it's the right thing to happen. Sure, the landlord must decide and devil take the naysayers, etc. That's democracy. But that doesn't justify it. Personally, even though I'm an unreconstructed atheist of the worst Dawkinsesque kind, I'm not going to take offence over the baby Jaysus nonsense. We've had too much officious taking of offence in this thread and not enough acceptance of the fact that we can take things in our stride and, as decent human beings, can work through good ways of tackling relatively minor issues such as naughty words in a small minority of folk songs. Hey, we folkies aren't as important as we think we are, by the way!

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 09:44 PM

I don't have the time, but will ONE of you (at least) be an intelligent adult and try to walk away from the personal fighting? Please?
Gonna be a lot more stuff deleted. Let it be the other guy's stuff.

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 09:49 PM

I figure you find out how your black or brown friends think about the song you sing. Have a good talk next time they come over for dinner. It would be interesting to see what you discover.

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jun 20 - 02:28 AM

"but will ONE of you (at least) be an intelligent adult and try to walk away from the personal fighting? Please"
Sory Jeri - you are mistaking argument on what some of us consider important as "personal fighting" - it isn't
Your power to close down threads gives you an unfair advantage
Pat and I worked with Travellers for over thirty years and saw the effects racism had on probably the most persecuted ethnic group close up - from notices in pub and shop windows saying the wouldn't serve Travellers to dawn raids on halting sights to 'fishing trips' by groups of police looking se if they could find stolen goods
Physical assaults, even fire bombings were not uncommon in urban settings
If you think wanting to talk about our singers and the songs songs they gave us "personal", we're working from different dictionaries
If you want an anodyne thread where the objective is to be nice to each other, I've got far more important things to be getting on with
Stay safe
Jim

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jun 20 - 02:44 AM

people travel great distances to hear sheffield carols and jesus songs and we have some lancastrian objecting to a good old yorkshire tradition, what next wlll he be objecting to,Dave find a sam smiths pub and enjoy winnie the pooh eeyore and 100 acre wood

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jun 20 - 02:48 AM

So, Dick. You say that if I do find something offensive, I should go somewhere else. Thanks for making that point for me. I disagree as I believe anyone should be able to go where they want without being offended but it is a valid argument.

Black Acorn. The fact that it is a bit of medieval propaganda makes it an historic work and unless you can tell me otherwise, accurately portrays attitudes at the time. As to It's the choice that the collective makes. We both know that that is wrong. It is not the voice of the collective that decides these things but the voice of the loudest and the most outspoken.

Jim, once again, this is not about firebombing travellers. It is about offensive songs. Do you really believe that calling Gypsies "Raggle Taggle" in a folk song makes people hate them?

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jun 20 - 02:52 AM

Back to the dicussion
It seems some people think it fine to sing racist songs as long as we sing it in the privacy of our own clubs and only sing to the minority who tolerate that sort of thing - what a strange outlook on our folk scene - a place where we can sing whatever we please as long as our aim is to keep it W.A.S.P.
The scene I belonged to was one constantly looking for new people, particularly from the immediate areas
Mine were in the cities, Liverpool, Manchester, London - multicultural conurbations, all of which could be massivly improved by an intake of some of the Muslim or West Indian or Irish or Greek People living in the immediate areas
That was going to happen by singing songs uning archaic racist terms - I don't think
I find some of the arguments being put forward her as offensive as that to the lurking troll who occasionally bursts in with his (I presume it is male) accusations that British society has become unfair because he can no longer talk about "nig-nogs" or "Yids" or "towel heads"
Perhaps some people here need to bell the cat and state exactly what they believe what should be acceptable
Personally I would err on the side of caution - I go along with Starship's last postings - pretend your club is half full of the people this language is aimed at (can't wait till the next lot come to dinner - none of us know when that's going to be)
Jim

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: GUEST,BlackAcornUK
Date: 05 Jun 20 - 03:04 AM

Hi Jeri, fair enough, I understand your concern. I’ve tried to focus on the substance, and as Jim says they’re issues that I consider important but I recognise that the intractability of such extended exchanges is unedifying for all, and can end up obscuring said substance.

Also, as I reflect further - these are extremely strange and stressful times - none of us can know what is being experienced in terms of loss or uncertainty by others - and it’s good to remember to be kind and patient where possible.

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jun 20 - 03:08 AM

no i am saying and being very specific that if you object to jesus songs or christmas carols go somewhere else ,i am not saying anything else
i mean would you seriously go to dungworth and object to the sheffield carols , if you did the people in the pub would not be so polite , its possible they might say to you, gnome, go forth and multiply. yorkshire is a christian country.and we enjoy singing these carols
if you went to haxie and objected to their hood game they might confiscate your fishing rod , if you went to padstow and objected to their hooby hoss tradtion, cos you wanted to be miserable over your pint they might stuff a cornish pastie somewhere not too politely
consider it a privilege that you can go into a pub and hear sheffield carols ,and enjoy a fine old yorkshire tradtion, alternatively find a sam smiths pub,

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: GUEST,BlackAcornUK
Date: 05 Jun 20 - 03:33 AM

Hi Dave, as mentioned, it’s historicity requires contextualisation.

On your second point - ‘if I knew it to be wrong’ I wouldn’t be writing it. Is your point that hate crime legislation, as well as the procedures of organisations, are determined by the loudest and most outspoken?

Are you also suggesting that ‘the collective’ in a folk context is keen to hear raciallised language, or at least apathetic about it? I think we might both be from Lancashire. I’ve been to singarounds and sessions all over the county, in cities, towns and villages. I don’t recall any where the use of the n-word would not be likely to be declaimed and rejected by the majority.

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jun 20 - 03:43 AM

"is unedifying for all, and can end up obscuring said substance."
It can also get us thrown out of the pub
Jeri's right up to a point, but there has to be a degree of allowance of how serious some of us see the problem
TRY THIS
Jim

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: GUEST,BlackAcornUK
Date: 05 Jun 20 - 03:55 AM

Ha, Jim, I think we're in broad agreement on these matters, with a number of other posters above. Personally I was (am) regretful of getting locked into an unnecessarily terse exchange with another user.

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jun 20 - 04:03 AM

Dick. if you object to jesus songs or christmas carols go somewhere else

There is no chance of that. To avoid Christmas carols at Christmas I would have to self isolate and switch off the TV.

Black Acorn. Is your point that hate crime legislation, as well as the procedures of organisations, are determined by the loudest and most outspoken?

No. As far as I am aware singing Little Sir Hugh is not a hate crime yet. It is you and Jim that are equating singing folk songs with hate crimes. Not me.

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jun 20 - 04:28 AM

"No. As far as I am aware singing Little Sir Hugh is not a hate crime yet. "
So you don't mind antisemitic songs if they are legal - hm
Nobody is associating these songs with anything other than making racist language acceptable - as you are doing
Would you frisk audiences for a Torah before you sang Sir Hugh or would you just plough on and tell the Jews in your audience that their people went in for blood sacrifice ?
I was reminded how acceptable racism was in Britain on the way back from the paper shop this morning by a news item reporting how an Irish woman in Coventry was instructed to remove her newly buried mother's tombstone because it was in Irish
She appealed to the law courts and her appeal was turned down on the grounds that an untranslated Irish inscription might be considered inflammatory
Our country has a major race problem - I'm sorry you wish to be part of it - I thought more of you
Jim

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jun 20 - 04:42 AM

I have give up with you, Jim. Equating folk music to racist hate crimes is just silly.

Dick, You set me off thinking.

Would I go to Dungworth and object to carols. No.
Would I go to Haxey and object to the hood game. No.
Would I go to Padstow and object to the hobby horse. No.

Let me ask you a question now. Would you go to a folk club or concert and object to traditional folk songs being sung?

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jun 20 - 04:45 AM

The big problem here is the glib way that some of us are using the expression "racist song." So some fellow comes to your club with the intention of singing one of these "objectionable" songs. Well that song is only in his head. He hasn't passed a song sheet round. What happens next is the vital bit. If the chap's demeanour is clearly racist, you'll probably know this already and he won't get very far. At our club in Bude we knew nearly all the twats who were likely to turn up every now and then and they wouldn't get a look in. We had a good few stompers-out. A bit like when a bodhran owner turns up to the session and, within seconds, all the spaces in the seating miraculously close up before he can sit down. If he sings the thing in such a way as to make the members think he's propagating a racist message, he'll get short shrift, and he won't get a spot next Friday night. If he gives a bit of context before he sings it and does a bit of dissociating from the potential message, we might not like it much but at least we'll respect the approach.

Guess what. That's self-policing in action. We don't need any banning. We don't need any censorship. We are talking here about whether we sing certain songs or not in folk clubs or singarounds, not taking them out to mass marches in the street to incite violence. We know what to do and we don't need telling. You don't hear the contentious songs very often. That tells us that we are doing it right. No self-appointed arbiters, thanks. We can manage well without them. Hebden Bridge Is full of weirdos but it's still quite a nice place, by the way.

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jun 20 - 04:59 AM

Did you ever see the episode of Pheonix Nights (may have been the first one) where a folk band, led by actor Tim Healy sing Send the buggers back?

Would anyone care to compare it with Maid of Australia and tell us that they cannot see the diffence between racist intent in the first and the historical racist/sexist attitude of the narator in the second?

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jun 20 - 05:54 AM

Would I go to Dungworth and object to carols. No... quote dave the gnome
Why do you rail at someone wanting to perform an historically accurate song yet you are quite happy to inflict your nonsensical Christmas carols on innocent atheists like me that have gone to the pub for a quiet pint? quote... dave the gnome
Dave contradicts himself,

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jun 20 - 06:14 AM

For Christ's sake, the word is nigger. And a jibe is far friendlier than a lying slur.

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jun 20 - 06:17 AM

i would not sing little sir hugh.
i also object
to shakespeares merchant of venice however well written it is

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: GUEST,BlackAcornUK
Date: 05 Jun 20 - 07:08 AM

Wishing you well, Steve.

Thanks Rigby, that's useful. I agree that these are important issues. If we ever meet, I'd be really happy to have a more detailed conversation about them; this forum probably isn't the place for that.

It's an interesting scenario that you raise, and I'm actually an admin in a Facebook group where I sometimes have to delete pending posts that are staunchly pro-Palestinian but which could be offensive to others. Over time, what we've found to be most effective to a harmonious and solidaristic environment is to clearly lay out the ground rules at the top of the page. On the occasions when we've queried people's judgement in sharing a certain thing, 9 times out of 10 they've taken that on board. On the now very rare occasions that flare-ups occur, we speak to people, and further refine the guidance.

Of course, most folk-clubs don't have written rules. We can establish norms and conventions in our interactions, programming choices, articles and online discussions. It's a constant evolution.

I've not encountered the scenario you describe, despite Hebden Bridge's strong leftwards tilt. People just don't bring those songs to the session. If it did happen, my default is to support the perspective of the person who feels racially offended. If a 'healing' conversation is possible, ideally one that builds mutual understanding, great.

Of course, the most challenging situation to navigate would be a disagreement on such grounds between a Palestinian and a Jewish attendee. Very difficult to say, hypothetically. Again, what you want to try and create are conversations and mutual understanding. Sometimes easier said than done.

Thankfully, as we seem to have broadly established, it's slightly easier - though still sometimes difficult! To try to find the correct balance on racialised language or material with a potentially racist message, even if no-one in attendance is from the groups pertained to.

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jun 20 - 07:54 AM

Dave contradicts himself

No I don't, Dick. If I went specifically to Dungworth for a carol session I would not complain when they sang them. If I went to my local for a quiet pint and a group of carolers started singing the praises of a "miracle baby" I would object. No contradiction there at all.

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jun 20 - 08:01 AM

Yes, Black Acorn, shorter would be better :-) But I think there is little point continuing. I have made my point and given the reasons why. We are grown ups. We understand the difference between racism and songs that some would see as offensive. You have made your point that, even without racist intent, you do not believe these songs should be performed. Let people now make up their own minds.

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jun 20 - 08:12 AM

"We are grown ups. "
That is incredibly arrogant Dave - we can be racist because we understand it
Hvae yuo really given up on attracting youngsters onto the scene - it would appear so
I've just twalked away from a screen full of examples of the result of long-term toleration of racism
Hopefully youngsters have learned more than some of my generation have - is this really happening ?
Jim

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: GUEST,BlackAcornUK
Date: 05 Jun 20 - 08:21 AM

Jim, as someone on the cusp between generations myself (30s), I can assure you that youngsters overwhelmingly are cogniscent of these factors. I'm increasingly finding myself at sessions led by people under 35.

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jun 20 - 08:30 AM

For the festival I had most input to I booked London/Guyanan story teller, Tuup alongside local Lancashire tale spinner Derek Stanton. That worked a treat. Derek named it "Tu-up, one down" :-)

Go for any inter-racial partnerships you can. It will all go toward a better understanding of other cultures.

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jun 20 - 08:35 AM

...and send me a link to any of your work so I can put it in the Mudcat YouTube channel. Seeing as you can't PM me look for the Mudcat YouTube channel thread and put the link there.

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jun 20 - 09:17 AM

so dave, if the sheffield carollers turned up at your pub you would object?

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jun 20 - 09:29 AM

Depends if it was announced or not. Then I would have the choice to either go or stay at home. It is not being given a choice that I am objecting to, Dick. Nothing else. Like the songs we are discussing people should have the choice to sing them as they are, change them or not sing them. Just like people should have the choice to listen to them or not.

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 05 Jun 20 - 09:45 AM

Dave -
London/Guyanan story teller, Tuup

What a lovely man he is! I met him in 2007 at Whitby MusicPort Festival when we were travelling around Britain with the great kora player/singer Jali Sherrifo Conteh. He saw Sherrifo play in the opening concert and asked him to play a sort of background to his storytelling spots. The blended together instantly. After that they were together all the weekend in workshops, informal performances and backstage as well as in concerts with Tuup playing his djembe behind the kora. There was also a great multi-cultural session with these two and members of the Warsaw Village Band.
Guyana and The Gambia melding together for the benefit and enjoyment of English audiences. Of course, this was 2007 and before we had a racist government.

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jun 20 - 10:11 AM

Dave it is not your pub what happens is up to the landlord ,if it happens go somewhere else, personally i reckon you would stay if the sheffield carollers turned up. it is the same as people turning up and singing anything unannounced, it is up to the land lord if he decides yes, you dont have a choice, what youare saying has no relevance it aint your pub its the publicans pub ,if you dont like it tough

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jun 20 - 10:19 AM

You seem to be arguing for arguments sake, Dick. Of course it is the landlords choice. Just as it is the customers choice to go there or not.

Yes, Vic. He is great. He was due at the informal session at the Whitle Lion, Swinton in the afternoon. He arrived an hour or so late because he went to the White Lion at Little Hulton - About 5 miles down the same road. A very rough area and a bit of a dodgy pub but he enjoyed his visit there all the same :-) On the same bill but a different venue I had booked Roy Bailey and the Orlyk Ukrainian Dancers. Not performing together I hasten to add. Although it may have been interesting :-) It was one hell of a good international festival!

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jun 20 - 11:07 AM

Oh, and I would have given my right arm to see Walter performing "Maid of Australia" but if nasty Nick tried it I would have thrown eggs before walking out. It's all about intent.

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Jun 20 - 12:27 PM

This thread is about racist traditional songs. It isn't about Jews in Israel versus Palestine, nor is it about the BNP. Those topics have been discussed, ad nauseum, elsewhere. A mention is one thing, dragging the entire thread down one of those paths is unacceptable.

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jun 20 - 12:46 PM

I have no idea what you are on about, Jim. I am not claiming the right to do anything nor denying anyone else. I am saying people can sing songs with offensive lyrics, change the lyrics or simply not sing them. People can also listen to these songs or not as they do choose. Nothing more or less. It is you that is equating them with race hate crime, the BNP and, quite possibly, the rising price of fish. Enough of the straw man arguments.already!

Subject: RE: Are racist, but traditional, songs OK?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jun 20 - 01:08 PM

Alleluia, Maggie. Not only that, the attempts to broaden the discussion in those directions in a music thread threaten to delude us into thinking that our little folk bubble is more important to the outside world than it is. As I said, the worst that can happen is discontented rumblings in folk clubs and singarounds that probably wouldn't happen anyway because we know how to police ourselves. We don't exactly take our dodgily-worded folk songs out on the streets to rouse the masses to violence...