BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Jul 12 - 05:41 PM

I'll check it out, olddude, thanks.

Actually, I just don't carry the thing anymore. Safely locked up. The places I go are very unlikely to have a berserk shooter in residence. As I mentioned above, I'm in far more danger from the multitudes of teenage kamikazes on skateboards.

I haven't been attacked by many canteloupes lately, Greg. Indeed, I just attacked one yesterday. With a very deadly spoon. However, what a bullet does to a canteloupe gives you a pretty good idea of what it can do to human flesh. Kinda gruesome!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Jul 12 - 06:15 PM

what a bullet does to a canteloupe gives you a pretty good idea of what it can do to human flesh

Sorry Don, but no, it don't. That's nonsense.If you want to run real comparison tests, you'll need some ballistic gel.

Leave the poor vegetables alone- they ain't done nothin' to ya.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 29 Jul 12 - 06:58 PM

""+p ammo with full jacked hollow points (my gun can handle the hot load).""

Clarify something for me Dan, and I'm not trying to start a row, I genuinely want to know the answer.

I thought dum dums were banned under international law, is this:-

a) Not true?
b) Repealed?
c) Ignored by the USA?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Jul 12 - 07:13 PM

Well . . . here's where I quote Clark Gable at the end of "Gone with the Wind."

The canteloupe test was suggested by a ballistics expert writing in "Guns and Ammo" magazine some years back. But--academic. As I said, mah hawglaig now resides in a locked drawer.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Jul 12 - 07:14 PM

Banned from use IN WAR by international convention - hey, ya gotta have a nice, clean, civilized war, aintcha?

Who would want for more?

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Jul 12 - 07:19 PM

Dum dums are banned for use in war. Against International Law.

For some strange reason, hollow-points don't seem to be regarded as "dum dums." You can buy them by the 50 round box in a sporting goods store.

But--to my knowledge, they are not used by the military.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 29 Jul 12 - 07:24 PM

""Banned from use IN WAR by international convention - hey, ya gotta have a nice, clean, civilized war, aintcha?""

I was rather hoping that nobody would tell me that a crime against humanity in wartime is an acceptable tactic for a law enforcement officer in a country which claims to be civilised.

This kind of explains why the civilised and democratic US of A refused to acknowledge the International Court of Justice.

For shame!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 29 Jul 12 - 07:50 PM

not funny Don you are right, a regular soldier is not suppose to use hollow point bullets. But they can use explosive bullets , fragmentation bullets, incendiary bullets and a host of others but no hollow points. However, in war, you see all of the above and special forces, their handguns have hollow points just as the police do

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Jul 12 - 07:54 PM

I don't make the laws, Don, nor do I condone them. And I reiterate, my handgun is locked in a desk drawer.

And if you've been paying attention, you will notice that there are a lot of Americans on this thread who want the firearms regulations changed. The NRA is the demon in this situation.

So don't go around condemning all Americans as being "uncivilized."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 29 Jul 12 - 07:54 PM

I've never heard of them fired by police. It would have been very newsworthy, I'd think, for exactly the reason you suggest and because it would be so unusual. Police in the U.S. rarely have to shoot anybody with any kind of bullet anyway.

Presumably police would use hollow-points against an armed assailant clad in some kind of body armor, or in some situation where the commonly issued bullet might be ineffective. Like shooting a rabid wild animal.

Just as a point of information, American police generally have to justify any use of a firearm in the line of duty, with forms in triplicate. And if there's any doubt that a shooting was justified, they're prosecuted criminally and civilly.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Jul 12 - 08:08 PM

hollow-points against an armed assailant clad in some kind of body armor

No. Hollow points would be more useless than a regular jacketed round when dealing with "body armor". In that scenario, you'd want penetration rather than expansion.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 29 Jul 12 - 08:22 PM

For our cousins across the pond who may not have realized it yet, even our gun control advocates have guns!

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: gnu
Date: 29 Jul 12 - 08:35 PM

Ahhh... full metal jacket ("whizzers") bullets are used in war for a reason which has two benefits. Less damage for the shootees and more work for the shooters. Generally speaking, it takes at least two healthy soldiers to care for a wounded soldier.

I thought only cops were allowed to use dum-dums. Hollow point long gun ammo is allowed here but I believe it is not allowed for restricted (handguns included) guns.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 29 Jul 12 - 09:02 PM

lighter my dear friend, I can tell you absolutely that I know what I am talking about. There are NO police in this country that don't use hollow point bullets in their handguns. For one thing a hollow point is less likely to punch through something and hit an innocent. Second when a policeman in the line of duty has to use his weapon he wants the bad guy down and out ... Hollow point bullets are the standard issue for all police departments in the states. I know of no officer that doesn't use them ... first and foremost for safety of others. A full metal jacketed bullet will rip through a car door, and damn near anything else from a .40 cal weapon. A hollow point will not

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 29 Jul 12 - 09:05 PM

And as for police shootings, about once a week in the city. Damn near every other night the police have to return fire from some criminal drug nut

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 29 Jul 12 - 09:13 PM

by the way, the Glock that has gotten so much press lately. that is the single biggest used weapon by FBI (standard issue) Justice dept and pretty much every other police dept in the states. That gun is designed to ONLY use hollow points. It is actually unsafe to use a hardball ammo in the weapon because of design. Hollow points are what it was designed to use and only hollow points.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 29 Jul 12 - 09:39 PM

and for most people carrying a big pocket watch is the way to go ... I wouldn't want to get knocked on the head with one of my old size 18 RR watches :-) Weapons are a dirty business .. I suppose the only thing I haven't fired sometime or the other has been a flame thrower ... I hate the damn weapons, I wish we had a world where they were not needed but since that world doesn't exist, it is what it is

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Jul 12 - 11:30 PM

I am never sure why a thread on WHETHER to have guns slides sideways into "what guns and ammo have most firepower?". I 'think' it is because some folks are just fascinated with weapons.... which means that the INcompetent ones, as well as the trained, competent ones, will continue to collect guns

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 30 Jul 12 - 01:26 AM

naw not me, I got more than I can use. Family keeps dying off and leaving them to me .. hell I don't hunt anymore .. I don't even hurt the fish I catch

ballistic thread well I answered the question when asked .. and one I didn't answer is the military doesn't use hollow points, not because of any agreement, but because they are useless in battle. They need rounds that penetrate body armor and armored vehicles. I wish they all did use hollow points. Instead of the carnage maybe most would get a painful bruise after hitting the vest they all wear

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Aug 12 - 07:59 PM

Here we go again...

7 dead in Greenfield, Wisconsin...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 05 Aug 12 - 09:14 PM

arm yourself bobster you want a hogleg I get ya one

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Aug 12 - 09:36 PM

No, thanks... I got two guns: a 12 guage pump and a 22/.410 over-under... perfect for home protection... Lousy for shooting lots of people but I ain't expecting a war her in Wingate, NC...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: artbrooks
Date: 05 Aug 12 - 09:45 PM

This is getting to be a Permathread. Shit.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Aug 12 - 11:39 PM

....and so it goes..........

*...wondering how many anti-social nuts are saying "I could get more than that!" and making plans as they order more ammo.*

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 06:53 PM

""So don't go around condemning all Americans as being "uncivilized."""

An where exactly, Don F, did I do that.

"All Americans" don't actually make the laws!

They elect a government, and their country is just as civilsed, or not, as that government makes it.

I am condemning the American government, as are many Americans, for either permitting, or encouraging these atrocities to continue at the whim of a tiny minority with enormously disproportionate political clout.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 07:07 PM

""Just as a point of information, American police generally have to justify any use of a firearm in the line of duty, with forms in triplicate. And if there's any doubt that a shooting was justified, they're prosecuted criminally and civilly.""

I'm not disputing the use of guns by properly trained law enforcement officers whenever it may prove necessary in the line of duty.

I am disputing government permitting the use of ammunition banned for use in war.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 07:46 PM

Don T...you are right, up to a point, but the 'government' is made up of elected citizens with complex agendas and loyalties. The gun lobby is linked to several other lobbies and scares candidates before they are ever elected.


It is a sad fact that, right now, there is SO much money being spent by the NRA and related lobby groups, the every politician in every party knows that he will be targeted if he says anything 'serious' supporting gun control. There are Democrats in 'safe' districts who speak out from time to time, but almost NO Republican feels safe even considering disputing the NRA's position on the 2nd amendment.

This Democratic administration has many other issues they wish to consider in an Obama 2nd term, and they are obviously being VERY careful about a hot-button issue which might cost them the entire election. I can't say I blame them.

I can't see anything working except a grass-roots movement demanding changes,,, and voting for candidates to support changes. But you see, we have honest, 'decent' folk like Olddude "fighting fire with fire" and not wanting anything except superficial changes... like gun show regulation. I even suggest that IF any direct attempt were made to ban...or even seriously regulate... guns & ammo, some of the more ....ummm... "outspoken" folk would treat it as an attack on their basic human rights and would 'defend' their *rights* with more violence than we have currently! ...and they DO have a hundred million guns squirreled away to resist any such movement.

Gee, Don T... why don't YOU come explain it to them rationally?

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 08:00 PM

Bill my friend
if they banned firearms, I would be the first to give them up. that is straight from the heart. I own them, I shoot them, I repair them, I trained law enforcement and military on tactics ... but ... I hate the damn things ... wish they didn't exist but it is what it is

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 08:08 PM

really, Dan? I never heard you say it that way.

I deal with the issue by swearing NOT to ever own another gun and trying to avoid any situation where weapons might be used.

I know that "things happen" to innocent people, as we see everyday... but I do NOT believe that 'good' people carrying them will make anyone any safer.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 08:52 PM

It will never come down to banning firearms... It will come down to sane gun laws... Bill has articulated them... I would settle for what Bill has proposed... That would be 90% of the solution without banning firearms from responsible people...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 08:55 PM

Thanks Bobert.... If you & I vote we'll...ummmm...

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 09:02 PM

From your mouth Bobster to God's ears ... I can only hope that myself. Right now they give good people no choice but to conceal carry and unless someone is as highly trained as a guy like Rap ... they should not

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: gnu
Date: 07 Aug 12 - 05:29 AM

Small point, especially given the fact I haven't followed this thread lately, but...

Don... "I am disputing government permitting the use of ammunition banned for use in war."

That would be terribly cruel to game animals. If I was one ton moose, I'd shove my antlers up yer

>;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: John P
Date: 07 Aug 12 - 09:52 AM

Here's a question for y'all:

The guy that just killed all those people in Wisconsin bought his gun legally. He is also a known white supremacist who has played in hate-rock bands that engage in extremely violent speech. Should he have been banned from buying a gun?

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Aug 12 - 09:54 AM

Meanwhile, back at the not-so-funny farm, the wacko who shot Gabby Giffords has been pumped full of meds enough to cop a plea today which will keep him from getting the death sentence in exchange for life without parole...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Aug 12 - 10:15 AM

"Right now they give good people no choice but to conceal carry and unless someone is as highly trained as a guy like Rap ... they should not"

No choice? C'mon!....

I seriously want to know what the "good people" who are NOT trained... or capable of being trained... should do. Do we just hope that a Rap or an olddude is around?

The math & demographics just do not support the idea of trying to arm all the "good people".

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 07 Aug 12 - 12:12 PM

And how do you know if you're a good person or not?

Don't true wackos think they're perfectly normal (or at least justified)?

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Aug 12 - 12:27 PM

Yes, most of them do.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Aug 12 - 01:13 PM

Two NPR headlines today.

.
Psychiatrist Contacted Police About Colo. Shooting Suspect, Media Report

Reports: Man ID'd As Wisconsin Killer Had Previously Been On FBI's Radar

You can't make this crap up.

The Police said the Psychiatrist didn't fill out the proper paper work. The FBI says it did not have enough evidence to investigate. SIGH!!

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 07 Aug 12 - 01:29 PM

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/07/lynne-fenton-james-holmes_n_1751057.html?utm_hp_ref=canada

Seems like the UC psychiatrist also called a meeting of the university's "threat assessment team," but it never convened.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Aug 12 - 01:33 PM

Wow! That makes it looks worse, it looks like when he dropped out of school. The school decided to ignore the treat.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Aug 12 - 01:34 PM

threat.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 07 Aug 12 - 02:10 PM

Were they so dumb as to think, "Well, we're legally and morally off the hook if he goes nuts, because he isn't connected with the university any more"?

But maybe there's a perfectly logical and innocent explanation.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 07 Aug 12 - 02:40 PM

Of course, if she then called the police herself, that might have made any committee meeting unnecessary.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Aug 12 - 05:16 PM

more 'incidents' related to theater scares

and CNN is reporting that another guy was caught inside a theater with a weapon. He arrived 30 min. early and sat in back row. The manager and an off-duty cop were suspicious and confronted him. He claimed he was there "to protect" folks. They didn't buy it.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Aug 12 - 05:47 PM

He's in custody,,,,Columbus, Ohio....He had a 9mm and several knives. Many more weapons at home....rifles, shotguns, survivalist gear.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 07 Aug 12 - 06:07 PM

Either he knew he was a bad guy, or he thought he was one of the good guys.

That explains it.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: olddude
Date: 07 Aug 12 - 09:14 PM

well how do we tell a good guy from a bad guy who thinks he is good. We do that everyday. With our Police who are carrying weapons. With the chef that cooks our food when we go out to dinner. With the teacher who educates our kids ... ya gotta trust someone sometime

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Janie
Date: 07 Aug 12 - 09:38 PM

Lighter, the laws regarding "duty to warn" on the part of licensed mental health professionals vary from state to state, and I don't know what the laws are in Colorado. In most states, mental health professionals, clinics and agencies often walk a legal and ethical tightrope. One end of the rope is firmly attached to very strong legal restrictions regarding release or disclosure and the therapeutic relationship between the individual and a behavioral health provider. The other end is attached to legal and ethical mandates (that vary considerably) regarding either "duty to warn" or "psychiatric or medical emergency."

You can bet that cases such as this get the attention and lead to intense discussion and analysis among behavioral health professionals because there is rarely a clear line about when one end of the pole trumps the other, and especially no clear demarcation about where the tipping point may be. I've done crisis work for a lot of years, am really effective and experienced at it, and still sweat bullets, both regarding the safety of patients and others, and also about liability issues, no matter how many times I walk that tightrope.

Contrary to popular belief, behavioral health professionals do not have crystal balls, and can not read minds.

From the very limited amount of information I have, sounds like the psychiatrist exercised her "duty to warn" under whatever the Tarasoff statutes are in Colorado. The school committee to which she reported may have been legally constrained from further disclosure once Holmes withdrew from the school. As I said before, I don't know the mental health laws in Colorado, and certainly know nothing about Holmes, so my observations really aren't worth much.

We each have to decide for ourselves the costs and benefits of the personal vs the costs and benefits of the greater good or greater safety. I have had to do so. I have experienced personal harm and personal injustice as the result of laws or regulations that valued social justice or social safety over individual justice or individual safety. May there always be a legal tension between the two! Be that as it may, when the over-all costs to our society of our very liberal gun laws is weighed against the personal safety that may be afforded, fewer guns are in the public interest. It is not possible to pass laws that make it legal for only the likes of civilians like you to carry concealed weapons, or to own semi-automatic or automatic weapons.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Aug 12 - 10:23 PM

Just to back up what Janie has said... When I was a social worker and dealing with a case load that was heavy on the wacko side (politically incorrect) we "green warrants" as our tool... Problems is that magistrates and judges weren't all that wild about issuing them... We, as s social workers could could all but get on our knees and beg but...

...unless the trigger had been pulled the magistrates and judges would turn us down 90% of the time...

I fear that things haven't changed much since those days... Probably worse...

B~