BS: Shooting tragedies and guns

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Jan 13 - 02:09 PM

I have been searching for ideas, scenarios or facts that will give the most traction and pathos to a poster I am making about the gun issue.

No real response to my suggestions so far and I havent seen/found good examples here of late.

Any pointers from you*


*the universal collective you.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 Jan 13 - 01:13 PM

Or is it because they want angry fools to deluge Congress with one-line emails saying, "Touch my gun and you're out of office, Commie fascist"?

Yes.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 31 Jan 13 - 12:39 PM

The NRA is arguing (among many, many other things) that the decline in gun homicides over the years proves that no new measures are needed, because Americans are shooting each other less anyway.

They might argue just as cogently that gun laws already in place are responsible for the decline and that more controls will cause an even greater decline. Maybe without laws that NRA lobbied against long ago, the toll would have been higher.

The statistics are evidently true. They do not, however, have a crystal-clear meaning.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 31 Jan 13 - 12:13 PM

Well... I have no problems with facts and accuracy-- but which ones one chooses from long lists and how they are presented can be crucial. It goes to the old remarks about "lying with statistics"
You note that the overall number of *homicides* has decreased... and that is a genuine fact. However, when you look at types of homicides and overall totals in various categories as a % of population and related to urban vs. rural and other categories, it is hard to be very optomistic.


Take a look at these statistics. It requires some careful investigation to sort out the relevance, but they are not pleasant in their implications.

The author says what I have suspected for awhile now: "Levin said mass killers are often copycat killers who feed on the public outrage over domestic killing.

"The copycat phenomenon is real and, unfortunately, these things come in clusters," Levin said.


If that IS true, then there can be little doubt that disturbed individuals who have easy access to guns will continue to USE guns to express their frustration with family,life and society. Because a significant % of these commit suicide or expect to die in the process, it is even difficult to analyze motives.
I see the pressures of society and the bombardment of already shaky minds with violent games and stories of others "going out in a blaze of [glory]?" as a recipe for more mass shooting as long as the means is easily available.

That obviously affects MY opinion about how to address the overall problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Ebbie
Date: 31 Jan 13 - 12:03 PM

As they say, the NRA has shifted from being primarily a gun owner's agency interested in the outdoors, gun safety and creating good memories, to being a marketing tool for gun manufacturers.

Maybe that is where we need to look.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 12:06 PM

You're right, BillD, I am one of those people who is obsessive about factual details. The thing is, though you may not notice it, it doesn't matter which side someone is one, if they've got the facts twisted or confused, I go to pains to find the right ones. Whether its PDQ or Bobert, whether it's about gun deaths or Leslie Caron. I'm just like that.

Given that (I tend to use "Given that" as a transition, too), I think that there is a big disconnect between the rather abundant information that we have about our problems with violence, and the rather partisan solutions that are thrown around. I am particularly put off by the "waving a bloody shirt" posture, claiming that something needs to be done immediately, even if it doesn't actually solve the problem.

The thing is, all though there have been many "gun control" measures enacted into law, and although there has been a remarkable decline in homicides since say, 1993, the shirt-wavers behave as if things are worse than ever(both sides), and the public perception is that it what we tend to call a "zero sum game", so people cry and wring their hands when the opportunity arises, and then go back to whatever they were doing.


Sorry if you feel that I've mis-represented your position.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 11:14 AM

Yes, Lighter... there IS a lot of pressure on various members of congress who treat 'keeping their jobs' as a higher goal than 'doing the right thing'.
In doing so, they probably convince themselves, in a roundabout way, that they ARE doing the right thing. Hard position to overcome.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 10:46 AM

Er...is it because the NRA desperately wants stricter laws but is too scared of it's heat-packin' membership to say so? So, by using reverse psychology, they can finally get Congress to act and dues-paying NRA members to resign in droves?

Or is it because they want angry fools to deluge Congress with one-line emails saying, "Touch my gun and you're out of office, Commie fascist"?

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 10:46 AM

?? Ok, Stim... I am confused. You say you are not a gun rights person... fine. But you spend a lot of time criticizing others who are also not gun rights people....seemingly over fine points of data. You did summarize MY position incorrectly, as if I was the one being careless in my analysis.
   You accuse others like this:
"... prefer to offer high profile bandaids and to point their fingers at the NRA ..."
Now... what 'bandaids' do you mean? And what counts as a worthy step towards a solution? The NRA (excuse the emphasis) IS a problem, as they try to derail ANY solutions that alter their cozy status quo. They are not the only problem... but they are the face of many of the underlying problems. I and others have listed many of those underlying problems, from long standing cultural ones to detailed technical ones on weapon type & design. In some sense, any single proposal to confront any single item IS a 'bandaid'... but if you cut your hand deeply and can't get 'real' help immediately, a bandaid is better than nothing! (weak metaphor? maybe..but I hope you see the point).

One of the problems with tackling this issue is that there are so many people denying that it needs to be tackled. They don't even want to supply bandaids! One thing that is really needed is to keep the issue alive and keep the pressure on those who are in denial, for whatever reasons.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 10:17 AM

The NRA have deliberately made themselves into a cartoonish WWF-style bad guy in all this. Have you ever wondered why? Why did Wayne LaPierre, who has an in house PR staff who prepare all his talking points and strategies, make the rounds saying all the wrong things after the Newtown shootings? Keep in mind that, all appearances aside, he is not a stupid man, and he has a very large, well-paid staff of people who are not stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 09:18 AM

Yeah, I agree Stimz... Seems that rather than put some common sense gun controls in place the NRAers want to pollute, yes pollute, the discussion with bad stats and fear and not much more... Today the NRA will their smoke and mirrors show to Capitol Hill... Why they are invited is well beyond comprehension... We all know what they have to say because they have had the microphone going back 3 or 4 decades...

I wish that the Senate would invite the CDC people who were in midst of completing a study on the correlation between having a gun in the house and being shot by a gun but the NRA ***stopped*** that study years ago by telling their puppets in Congress that they wanted the study stopped... Yes, have the CDC people testify... But that won't happen because, well, we all know (wink, wink)...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 29 Jan 13 - 10:43 PM

You're not listening to me, BillD. I am not a "gun rights" person. I am tired of people who know damned well where most of the murders occur, and who commits most of the murders, and who are the victims of most of the murders, and prefer to offer high profile bandaids and to point their fingers at the NRA instead. And that is the name of that tune.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Jan 13 - 09:07 PM

Damn, PeeDee! You shoot skeet with a rifle? Ever kill any innocent bystanders with those high-angle shots?

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Jan 13 - 08:28 PM

Stim said: "We are concerned here, at least according to BillD, with what are now called "Rampage Shootings", ..."

Where did you get that? I never defined the issue narrowly like that! That is only one concern! Making up your own data now?

In some urban areas, a large % of deaths are gang/drug related. So what? Many of those gang members are using guns for other purpose than to shoot each other. They use guns to rob stores and people on the street, even when the don't shoot them! Making guns harder to obtain for gangs is a good idea, don't you think? Many gangs GET guns thru straw purchasers who but guns at shows, then resell them. They prefer handguns with large clips for holdups and some of those AR-15s and similar for serious disputes among themselves. What average citizen needs either one?

Stim... you are arguing from what sounds like a standard premise of "we have a right to them, and we NEED them because 'they' have them." That position is full of holes, but the idea seems to be that if enough people repeat a mantra, it becomes true.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Jan 13 - 08:27 PM

"in the cities"...

(((yawn)))

More rigging the stats...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: pdq
Date: 29 Jan 13 - 08:22 PM

Almost 60% of gun homicides in cities of 100,000 or more in population are gang-related.

More than 95% of gun homicides are by some form of weapon other than a rifle. Almost always a handgun.

So, what does Obama and the Feinstein do first? Go after everything else. Clever, eh?

Why? Because it would be dirty and dangerous to go after the gang thugs. Cost money, too.

Much easier to take the custom-balanced skeet shooting rifle away from the local real estate agent. Real gutsy move, eh?

And Bobert: knock off the "talking points" crap and talk. You are starting to sound as lame as Greg F'ing Moron, and that is real lame.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Jan 13 - 08:16 PM

Yes, Stimz... It's all about a lot of things that need to be done... Tinkering ain't goin' to fix squat... What we are going to get this tie around is tinkering...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 29 Jan 13 - 08:11 PM

Just to connect the dots--This much touted "ban on assault rifles" isn't really going to change much of anything, because there aren't really that many people killed with rifles of any sort.

And a big chunk of the our murders are gang-related, meaning that they are connected to organized crime--which, by it's very definition, isn't likely to respond to gun laws (actually, tight gun restrictions, like drug laws, create great opportunities for gangs).

I can't speak for PDQ, but my point here is that these "solutions" some of y'all are getting excercised about are empty gestures, with marginal benefits at best, because they don't even address the facts that we have.

Furthermore, and, for me, this is the kicker, BillD himself says "There are myriad, complex, interrelated problems!!" which means that he knows that simple "solutions" like banning certain rifles and limiting clip size, and even tighter registration and enforcement aren't really going to do much.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Jan 13 - 08:05 PM

Yup, Don...

The NRA/pdq folk want to make the narrative about gang killings... The underlying thread with that narrative is that gang members deserve to die... There is no other way to interpret why these people are intent on making gun control all about gangs...

Problem is that if you take the number of people killed by gangs then you still have one heck of a lot of folks who aren't... Might of fact, the number of other folks that get killed dwarf the gang war arguments...

That is reality...

So let's just reject the NRA/pdq argument... It is not relevant to the discussion... Just a smoke screen...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 29 Jan 13 - 07:48 PM

> No, it is what absolutely everybody does.

> To pick "facts" and stats that do not support one's own argument would be a form of mental illness.

A popular and serious misconception. That intelligent people believe it is an indictment of our educational system.

Research isn't about scoring points. It's about getting as close to the truth (and to the big picture) as possible.

Real researchers gather and report all the relevant facts, whether they tend to support their preconceptions or not. They at least try to make sense of them without personal bias. (Doing otherwise reminds me of the old saying, "My mind's made up, so don't confuse me with facts.")

Cherry-picking your favorite stats and suppressing the rest brings nobody closer to valid conclusions or helpful decisions. Of course, advertisers, politicians, and propagandists pick their stats all the time. Because they're trying to snow you, not trying to solve problems in the best informed manner.

And, as we all know, "Figures can't lie, but liars can figure."

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Jan 13 - 06:55 PM

And in your math, that's 90%, right PeeDee?

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: pdq
Date: 29 Jan 13 - 06:52 PM

If people accept those numbers as close enough, it means that 13 times as many people are killed by street gangs than by "rampage shooters".

We have also shown that rifles are used in fewer than 5% of gun homicides.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Jan 13 - 06:50 PM

I really don't get the NRA/pdq argument??? It's okay for gangs to kill folks is the underlying message here...

Kinda racist, ain't it...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 29 Jan 13 - 06:45 PM

Dammit!!

That should conclude:-

One twelfth of total gun deaths and one quarter of gun homicides are all that can honestly be laid at the door of gangs.

The number of those killed in random mas shootings is tiny, BUT the total number of gun homicides is huge.

How can Americans accept this carnage as simply the price of doing business?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 29 Jan 13 - 06:36 PM

2006 - 2010, 774 mass gun murders and 10,000 gang killings out of a total gun related deaths over that four years of approximately 120,000, of wich more than 40,000 were homicides.

So annually, 30,000 gun deaths, 10,000 gun murders, 2,500 gang related and 194 mass shootings, usually at schools and perpetrated by current or ex students.

Kind of puts the difference between gang and rampage more in perspective:-

One twelfth and

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Jan 13 - 06:30 PM

Thanks for the self-serviing quotes, PeeDee.

Still no documentation, however.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: pdq
Date: 29 Jan 13 - 06:26 PM

"Cherry picking stats is dishonest..."


No, it is what absolutely everybody does.

To pick "facts" and stats that do not support one's own argument would be a form of mental illness.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: pdq
Date: 29 Jan 13 - 06:09 PM

Doug Sovern, CBS San Francisco, January 14, 2013

Two groups are at war with each other on the streets of Oakland, after the murder of woman last summer, and the subsequent feud is responsible for "90 percent" of the violence in the city since then, Oakland Police Chief Howard Jordan said Monday.

City officials held a news conference Monday to discuss the alarming wave of shootings in the city over the weekend. Four people were killed Friday and 11 more were wounded since then.

Oakland Mayor Jean Quan, Police Chief Jordan and City Administrator Deanna Santana joined other local leaders in East Oakland to address a disturbing string of shootings in a city that has been plagued by violence and a soaring murder rate.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Jan 13 - 06:02 PM

Cherry picking stats is dishonest...

Of course the NRAers want to put as many murders on gangs as possible and if you go into the worst of the worst neighborhoods, yeah, you find a disproportionate number of gang related murders...

Problem is that those worst of the worst neighborhoods in no way represent America... We have a sleeping little rural town 5 minutes from here... It's Marshville, NC and rural and the home of Randy Travis... Nice little town... Not a lot of fpolks live there but, in spite of the few people who live there there were 6 murders there in the last year... Not one gang related...

If you fly over America and look down from the airplane you see thousands and thousands of Marshvilles... Sand Hook is probably a lot like Marshville...

So, please people... If you are going to use statistics or testimonials, use them honestly... Not too much to ask...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 29 Jan 13 - 05:35 PM

PDQ, you and I have been through the 90% stuff before. Your response was, "Pick a number." I do not believe what you said because I think it's bullshit. Back it up from somewhere besides a NRA site and I'll apologize.

PS Where's my CD? Obama won.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Jan 13 - 05:27 PM

Who gives a crap what they SAY, Pee Dee? What can they document?

Advice it would do you well to adopt, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: pdq
Date: 29 Jan 13 - 04:11 PM

The mayor of Oakland, California, says that 90% of recent murders in her city are gang-related.

The chief of police for Chicago said something similar. About 90% of gun homicides there are gang-related.

Guess each is a talk show host working for the Tea Party?

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 29 Jan 13 - 03:29 PM

According to the Department of Justice, Donnuel, there are about 2,000 gang related murders a year. In Los Angeles and Chicago, they account for about half of the murders each year.National Gang Center Surveys. Most of those killings would have involved a gun.

To my mind, that is not "very small".

We are concerned here, at least according to BillD, with what are now called "Rampage Shootings", and which seem to occur about one every two weeks. USA Today Homicides and Mass Murders 2006-2010. The thing is, according to the USAToday numbers (which look to have come from "Mother Jones") there were 774 victims of Rampage murders during that time. According to the Justice Department, there were a bit more than 10,000 gang related murdered during that time.

So, anybody, which is the bigger problem? And before you answer, remember that the "race card" is already on the table.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Jan 13 - 12:10 PM

I prefer the right wing shows that limit themselves to 5 lies per minute.

I didn't realize there were any.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Jan 13 - 11:44 AM

The percentage of gang related deaths by guns is very small.
The claim that gangs are the big problem is made by race baiters and right wing talk shows that average 18 lies per minute.
I prefer the right wing shows that limit themselves to 5 lies per minute.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Wesley S
Date: 29 Jan 13 - 11:20 AM

This is making the rounds on facebook:

by Mary Cathryn Ricker, President of the St. Paul Federation of Teachers, Local 28,


Licensed to Teach

So I guess the NRA says the answer to stop school shootings is more guns, joining the smattering of elected officials who recently have promoted the idea of arming teachers and principals. This approach is wrong.

If a place like Ft. Hood, TX which has some of our planet's most deadly weapons carried by some of our planet's most deadly professional soldiers, can be reduced to carnage by a single armed assassin, then what makes The NRA think that arming a nation of just-right-book loving, denim jumper wearing, wooden apple bead necklace creating, white board marker toting school teachers (and the rest of us) will be effective?

You want to arm me? Good. Then arm me with a school psychologist at my school who has time to do more than test and sit in meetings about testing.

Arm me with enough counselors so we can build skills to prevent violence, have meaningful discussions with students about their future and not merely frantically adjust student schedules like a Jenga game.

Arm me with social workers who can thoughtfully attend to a student's and her family's needs so I. Can. Teach.

Arm me with enough school nurses so that they are accessible to every child and can work as a team with me rather than operate their offices as de facto urgent care centers.

Arm me with more days on the calendar for teaching and learning and fewer days for standardized testing.

Arm me with class sizes that allow my colleagues and I to know both our students and their families well.

Arm my colleagues and me with the time it takes to improve together and the time it takes to give great feedback to students about their work and progress.

Until you arm me to the hilt with what it will take to meet the needs of an increasingly vulnerable student population, I respectfully request you keep your opinions on schools and our safety to yourself NRA. Knock it off.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Jan 13 - 11:15 AM

Yeah, Bobert, Obama has a nasty habit of negotiating with himself and when he does so, he always loses.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,999
Date: 29 Jan 13 - 10:37 AM

The new gun laws ain't gonna change shit.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Jan 13 - 10:35 AM

Nice song, B-Bad...

Unfortunately, the Obama narrative has already changed in less than the time it takes for paint to dry... He's not talking about assault weapons or high capacity clips anymore but only background checks and more $$$ for mental health...

I think the NRA was somewhat willing to give on the back-ground checks so I think Obama and the NRA are on the same page now which means the can has been kicked down the road and the mass shootings won't end and we'll be revisiting real gun control down the road...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Jan 13 - 10:29 AM

The NRA is totally wedded to the "slippery slope" theory of governmental action. Allow 'them' to limit ONE type of gun, and tomorrow they'll be in your kids' bedroom closet, looking for pellet guns and slingshots.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 29 Jan 13 - 10:15 AM

Did I say that? Did I say that?

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Jan 13 - 08:51 AM

Damn, Lighter, you mean to tell us that the National Rifle Assassination would LIE ???

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 29 Jan 13 - 07:52 AM

I post as a non-member because I keep losing my cookie. But never mind that. You've all heard how the first thing Hitler did was impose gun control and take away Germans' guns so they couldn't overthrow him? You've read the bumper stickers quoting Hitler in 1933 saying "This is a great day for Germany, because we have finally outlawed guns," etc., etc., a quotation which has been shown to be bogus.

But according to Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Germany

For non-Jewish Germans, Hitler actually *relaxed* the draconian gun laws put in place by the Treaty of Versailles and again by the Weimar Republic. True, by the Act of 1938, Jews were forbidden to possess firearms, but at the same time they were being stripped of their citizenship and everything else, including their dogs. (That is not a joke.)

What, after 1938, individual German Jews might have done with pistols and rifles against the Nazis is an entirely different question, but the Wehrmacht made short work of the entire trained and organized Polish army in 1939.

Any claim that Hitler kept his hold on power by confiscating the firearms would appear to be 100% untrue.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Jan 13 - 11:15 PM

"·.. first figure out what the problem really is,..."

Well...gee. How long do I have? There are myriad, complex, interrelated problems!! And who is going to evaluate my proposed list of them once I write the 800 page book outlining them? You?

While I work out the 'problems' and submit my ideas, there are people dying!

Suppose you have a dog digging up your flower beds. You can analyze the history of man's relation to canines and study the behavior of dogs in urban environments and the relative distance of garden plots to the dogs enclosures in the area..... or, you can fence the garden and enforce tighter laws about dogs running free!

Problems with gun deaths? Easy... There are daily tragedies from too many of the wrong people having too many of the wrong kind of weapons! Solutions? Reduce the totals of either or both! How? Well... you want simple, or do you want feasible? I can list a number of each.. as can a dozen other posters to this thread. The solutions are totally enmeshed in cultural, financial & political webs which defy most attempts to cut thru them.... but someone has to make a start. (yeah, I underlined that... see below)

Now... I use underscores and quotation marks to try to make writing sound like speaking and emphasize what I think needs 'extra' oomph, like a politician making a speech. You may, at your convenience, ignore them or copy & paste them into a word processing program, where those caps & italics, etc., will disappear. I will continue to compose my posts to express my opinions... just as some continue to post as a non-member for some reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 28 Jan 13 - 10:15 PM

You can't move from sympathy, regrets, and comforting thoughts to solutions. You have to to first figure out what the problem really is, and, after that, you may begin to speculate as to what to do about it. I doesn't matter how upset you are, it doesn't matter how many caps or italics you use. You can underscore and paste question marks all over everything, but that doesn't mean that you have an answer. It doesn't even mean you're asking the right questions.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Jan 13 - 01:00 PM

Stim... please re-read the opening post. My entire point was to shed light on the entire spectrum of shooting tragedies. I began with a comparison of attacks with guns to a another senseless attack with a knife.

Since then, there have been 'about' a thousand MORE tragedies involving guns in the US. EACH is sad and involves altered lives of friends & loved ones. None was as extremely disturbing as the loss of so many children and those trying to protect them.
No one will forget the enormity of the loss at Sandy Hook school, but no one should ignore the central issue that between 5-15 or so die every day thru gun violence. Some of these are 'merely' results of drug gangs, and some are 'merely' accidents.... but they all have one thing in common: they involve the use of firearms by people who should not have access to firearms.

You simply cannot think about these tragedies without asking "WHY?"... and thus we discuss & debate how to be fair, reasonable and practical in attempting to control and alleviate the problem. Some who enter the discussion have owned and dealt with firearms all their adult lives, and consider themselves to be sane and reasonable and careful... which they no doubt are... but they also tend to define possible solutions to the carnage in ways that do not affect their 'rights'.
There have been many comments on those rights... in the origin of them, the value of them and the future of them. Of course there are differences of opinion when a topic is this complex and emotional.... and no matter WHAT is done, (or not done) some will not be satisfied.

All I can say about remembering "... the tragedy that took place." is that it is ALWAYS there. No amount of debating how to prevent tragedies will erase those memories.... but *I* began this thread with a hope that we could move beyond sympathy, regret and comforting thoughts to solutions.....

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 27 Jan 13 - 09:45 PM

It's got a nice, driving beat, kind of reminiscent of "Heart", and it doesn't make you cringe, like all those 9-11 songs. It isn't much like a Phil Ochs song. Phil wasn't just a songwriter, he was a journalist, and a polemical one, at that.

This song is an exhoration, and his message seems to be that everyone knows what needs to be done, and it's up to us to do it. I don't know why this particular event happened. I am not even sure that the accounts that we've seen and heard are accurate. I know that they are far from complete.

I also know that everybody, BillD included, has jumped very quickly from discussing the incident itself to which ever side of the "gun control" issue they happen to favor. Much to his credit, John Flynn has moved us back to the tragedy that took place. Good on you, John.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: bobad
Date: 27 Jan 13 - 08:26 PM

A powerful song written in the political folk tradition of Phil Ochs and others in response to the Newtown massacre by John Flynn: You Can't Tell.

With thanks to my Facebook friend Ron Olesko.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 07:46 PM

I agree with the Founding Fathers... Anyone who wants a single shot, muzzle loader and willing to show up for militia training oughtta be able to own one...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 07:41 PM

thanks..