BS: Israel condemned by UN

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Mar 13 - 04:07 PM

Not so fast about Egypt pouring sewage into tunnels. That has not been confirmed.

Wrong again Stringsinger.
It has.
Your OP was total bollocks too.
Anything to say about that?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,999
Date: 03 Mar 13 - 05:18 PM

1) Stringsinger's OP was not total bollocks. It did however gild the lily. The Israeli's were condemned for the crap they did in the settlements years back but not what they did in Syria recently.

2) As I said, Egypt closes tunnels to Gaza so we blame the Israelis. So when Canada closes pipelines to the US we blame the Israelis. Makes perfect sense to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Mar 13 - 01:21 AM

I have to disagree 999.
Here is the OP in full.

Both the United Nations and Russia have condemned Israel for the bombing of Syria and Lebanon, hoping that Israel will be forced to appear at the International World Court.

That is not partial bollocks, that is total bollocks.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Mar 13 - 05:14 AM


No one should ever have to be forced to live by a toxic waste site and yet increasingly this is what is happening all over the world.

Yes Stringsinger, but thankfully not in Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 04 Mar 13 - 09:42 AM

Keith. You don't know that. You're making an assumption not based on evidence.
The government of Israel is not going to tell anyone if they live near a toxic waste site.
Nor will the US or any other country. This is why many are getting sick today, but this is a whole new thread. Israel is as culpable in this regard as any other corporate controlled country.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Mar 13 - 10:09 AM

""2) As I said, Egypt closes tunnels to Gaza so we blame the Israelis. So when Canada closes pipelines to the US we blame the Israelis. Makes perfect sense to me.""

If you are going to take issue with what we are saying, it might be worth your while to find out what that is, don't you think Bruce?

I have not said that Israel is to blame for the closure, by Egypt, of the tunnels.

What I have said is that nobody knows for sure who the killers of those Egyptians were, who precipitated the closure, and I stand by that statement. Can you prove that I am wrong?

They could have been Palestinian. They could have been Hamas. They could have been Mossad.

I don't know, you don't know and Keith doesn't know, but Keith is the only one who expresses complete certainty that Israel alone of the possible miscreants, are innocent.

So I ask him who he thinks has most to gain from the closure and the isolation of Gaza from the outside world, and again he exempts Israel from the answer to that question, ignoring the fact that access to Egypt weakens the Israeli hold on Gaza, which they are actively engaged in blockading.

Do you recognise BIAS when you see it?

Or are you another who believes that bias only applies to Israel's opponents and not its supporters?

Don T.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,Gil Troy
Date: 04 Mar 13 - 03:54 PM

McGill University has been my academic home for two decades. I have taught thousands of students, always encouraging them to ask, challenge, learn and think independently. I frequently echo a friend of mine who would grandly welcome me into his home saying, "He who is shy does not eat" by saying, "He – or she – who is shy does not learn." I love the classroom's openness, the luxury we students and professors have to explore intellectually together. I relish every class I have taught as a learning journey, trying to break down the artificial barriers we all erect that stop us from thinking, stretching and growing.

Given that love of the learning process, I was surprised last month when I appeared at the McGill bookstore for a lunchtime lecture to launch my new book. For the first time in my McGill career – despite having taken controversial positions over those years – I was picketed. My crime, of course, was being a Zionist and writing a book about Zionism –Moynihan's Moment: America's Fight Against Zionism as Racism. As I and others who came to the lecture ascended the third-floor staircase, two or three protesters presented us with an anti-Zionist handout, emphasizing that they were Jewish and anti-Zionist.

Most people attending the lecture ignored the protesters, who hold weekly anti-Zionist vigils. It's important to emphasize that there were 15 to 20 times more attendees than protesters. One student, Yonah Diamond, who was a Shalom Hartman Institute summer intern with me last summer, spoke to the protesters, respectfully. A Jewish studies and political science major from Toronto, Diamond challenged an "End Zionism" sign they had brandished a week earlier. He asked: "Don't you see the hypocrisy in advocating on behalf of one people's rights [the Palestinians'] while simultaneously denying that self-determination to another people?"

Diamond quickly realized "they were completely OK with this hypocrisy, because they simply accepted stereotypical accusations, which they claimed to be historically accurate," taking refuge in the usual anti-Zionist buzzwords: "colonialist, ethnic cleansing, racist, apartheid." Their discussion about a two-state solution was particularly appalling. "They thought the idea of partition or two states was racist," he reports, which suggested to him that "they're not living in reality… they truly believe the lies and stereotypes."

During the question period following my lecture, one protester, wearing anti-Zionist slogans on his ski jacket, took something I said out of context to accuse me of being "racist." He lacked the discipline or the integrity to ask a question. He had not come to learn, only to posture. Although I had told the bookstore officials I did not object to the students leafleting inside the warm store rather than outside in the frigid cold – because I believe in academic freedom – his approach, which reflected no interest in learning, offended me – and I told him so. He walked away angrily.

Another protester asked a reasonable question. After comparing Israel to apartheid-era South Africa – a premise I refuted by noting the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a national not racial conflict – he asked what criticisms I had of Israel. This question gave me an opportunity to celebrate Israeli democracy, and demonstrate that I, like others, have many concerns regarding the peace process, the growing gap between rich and poor and the role of the ultra-Orthodox. But, I pointed out, whatever criticisms I have, I don't reject the state. I don't demonize a country because, like all countries, it's imperfect.

In truth, the other questions I fielded were better, fuller, richer, more illuminating about my talk – and more to the point. They were asked by people who came to learn, not to score points, and they pushed me to refine some ideas while inviting me to emphasize others.

Diamond believes, that, ironically, the protesters, "proved the importance of [my] message. The way they unthinkingly accused Israel of all these modern evils emptied these terms of any meaning. This ignorance filled the halls of the UN General Assembly in 1975 and continues to poison the minds of my fellow students. [Former American UN ambassador] Daniel Patrick Moynihan taught us that words and ideas have far-reaching consequences, and this couldn't have become clearer to me that day."

Students such as Yonah – some of whom, like him, become friends – make teaching at McGill a privilege. Not because he agrees with me, but because he comes to learn, and therefore does.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Mar 13 - 04:41 PM

Thanks Gil.
Two recent events in Brit universities.
Politician George Galloway was to take part in a debate about Israel.
When he learned that a student in the debate was an Israeli, he walked out.

A Bedouin Israeli invited to speak at another was shouted down and prevented from speaking by demonstrators.

What are these people afraid of?
Perhaps the truth.


What I have said is that nobody knows for sure who the killers of those Egyptians were, who precipitated the closure, and I stand by that statement. Can you prove that I am wrong?

I have only stated that Egypt knows.
The soldiers who fought them, from what happened at the funerals, believed Hamas was responsible.
The government closed the tunnels immediately, as a result of the attack.
After seven months of intelligence gathering and investigation, they clearly were completely satisfied as to who was responsible, and closed the tunnels in the most insulting and contemptuous way possible.

Why don't you tell them that they know nothing Don?
They might make you chief of security.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Mar 13 - 04:45 PM

So I ask him who he thinks has most to gain from the closure and the isolation of Gaza from the outside world, and again he exempts Israel from the answer to that question, ignoring the fact that access to Egypt weakens the Israeli hold on Gaza, which they are actively engaged in blockading.
Israel has been steadily reducing restrictions on Gaza.
It is only weapons and explosives now.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 05:35 AM

Minds, like parachutes, work only when open.

You are terrified of giving any consideration to anyone's viewpoint other than your own blinkered and biased mindset, and you spout other peoples opinions as if they were your own, then disown them when challenged.

It is a waste of time and effort trying to elicit either a balnced response or a single self produced thought or idea from you. It is always a case of "It's not my opinion, he (choose from the list of apologists) said it, and I believe him".

You are a highly selective but hollow sounding board for anybody who echoes your inbuilt anti Muslim (religious and cultural bias), Pro Israel (racial bias) prejudice.

In future, why not just post links to the people whose opinions you borrow, and we'll discuss it with them?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 05:49 AM

That is all just personal stuff about me Don, and not true.

Why not just address the points I make in my posts?
A discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 02:46 PM

""Why not just address the points I make in my posts?
A discussion.""

Constant denials without evidence, comments on what Israel thinks, Egypt thinks, Hamas thinks, or God thinks, are meaningless since you cannot read minds and you do not present evidence.

They do not amount to discussion.

Younever discuss! You ASSERT!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 03:17 PM

Constant denials without evidence, comments on what Israel thinks, Egypt thinks, Hamas thinks

Totally untrue.
What have I ever denied without evidence?

What Israel thinks. I have quoted from spokespersons or sites.
Why not?

What Egypt thinks?
I quote what their government says.
It says it closed the tunnels because of the attacks.

What Hamas thinks?
Who knows?
I have never speculated.

Why not just debate with me Don?
Point for point.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 05:38 PM

AIPAC has surreptitiously placed a gag order on mainstream media's reporting on Israel.
Al Jazeera may be the only source left on TV to get to the truth.
The Netanyahu warmongers have infiltrated the US government and they are terrified of AIPAC. The so-called Jewish lobby exerts undue influence in the US.
This is the reason that reportage is not only inaccurate when it exists but mostly is absent from the air ways.

For this reason, we are unable to get the real facts on this issue and must resort to wild speculation and ad hominem arguments.

The evidence is here, though. Any attempt to land supplies to the Palestinians is shut off by Israeli attacks.

The evidence presented here by pro-Israeli fanatics has to be specious.

The Palestinian people are suffering at the hands of Israel. That is indisputable.

The danger is that Israel could trigger another world war unless brakes are put upon their expansion by the international community.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 01:39 AM

Any attempt to land supplies to the Palestinians is shut off by Israeli attacks.

Yes, but you will not read about it on Al Jazeera or anywhere else.
The Jews control everything you see, hear or read now.

The evidence is here, though.

Fool.
We have controlled Mudcat for years.
No-one sees your warnings.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 07:34 AM

Stringsinger, put down the Protocols of the Elders of Zion - it's a hoax.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 07:43 AM

""What Hamas thinks?
Who knows?
I have never speculated.""

IS THAT SO?

Then what would you call your assertion that the attack on Egypt was designed by Hamas to acquire vehicles to attack Israel?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 07:51 AM

""Why not just debate with me Don?
Point for point.""

I cannot debate a two sided issue with somebody who doesn't recognise the existence of two sides.

When one person consistently says "You are wrong, because Israel says so", when Israel's actions are the point of the supposed discussion, debate becomes impossible.

When one person responds to every single piece of evidence presented with either "The source is unreliable, anti Israel, or antisemitic", or "Israel denies that", debate becomes impossible.

But of course you know all that already. It's your stock in trade to block debate when you know you have a weak or indefensible case.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 08:18 AM


Then what would you call your assertion that the attack on Egypt was designed by Hamas to acquire vehicles to attack Israel

Because that is what happened Don!
See the links on the other thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 08:21 AM

When one person consistently says "You are wrong, because Israel says so",

But, I never say any such thing.
I read and acknowledge the version of events supplied by you and Jim, and then provide a different version equally or more consistent with the known facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 09:55 AM

""I read and acknowledge the version of events supplied by you and Jim, and then provide a different version equally or more consistent with the known facts.""

Such as the ""different version equally or more consistent with the known facts.""........ ""Israel denies that"" in response to one or more of my posts containing multiple accounts by reliable eye witnesses and others, equally reliable.

Would you like me to locate and post the relevant ""different version equally or more consistent with the known facts."", or would you rather not force me to expose your lie?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 10:12 AM

How can we tell if eye witnesses are reliable?
Remember the ones who saw IDF soldiers throwing bodies off the Marmara?
Or the ones who saw a young activist executed on deck, with "video"?

People lie, especially about Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 10:21 AM

""People lie, especially about Israel.""

But in your fantasy world, of course, it is inconceivable that the Israeli government could equally lie?

The fact that some people lie or are mistaken is not, by any stretch of the imagination, evidence that Israel does not.

And remember the inconvenient fact that many of those witnesses are Israelis.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 11:39 AM

It is not an inconvenient fact Don.
Every country has citizens who hate it enough to lie to discredit it.

I trust no assertions, especially from "eye witnesses" who only appear long after the event.

Robert Fisk and the nurse were there in the immediate aftermath and testified at the time, as did Israeli soldiers.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 06:37 PM

""It is not an inconvenient fact Don.
Every country has citizens who hate it enough to lie to discredit it.

I trust no assertions, especially from "eye witnesses" who only appear long after the event.""

You trust NO ASSERTIONS which show the lengths to which the Israeli government is willing to go in destroying and annexeing the land which rightly belongs to Palestinians.

Thjat doesn't mean that you are right, or that any of those witnesses lied.

It simply means that you wouldn't believe Israel was wrong if Netanyahu and his cohorts confessed and swore it on the Talmud.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 07:17 PM

The defense of Israel is a losing proposition because the world community knows what's going on there. The delusion that Israel is somehow acting in good faith as a world
community is being challenged every day by new news of atrocities in that country.
Every country in the world has leaders that lie to keep their positions secure. The big lie is that Israel's supporters in their egregious actions are in a state of national denial.
I reiterate, Zionism has a false equivalency with Judaism. There are Jews all over the world who are disgusted at the actions Israel has taken.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 03:16 AM

Don, people lie.
We can still have a discussion.

Stringsinger, you are a troll.
You start threads and post inflammatory, unsubstantiated accusations.
We know you hate Israel.
Posting more groundless accusations is no contribution.
If you have no facts, fuck off.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 03:47 AM

"If you have no facts, fuck off."
Tsk, tsk - careful - the mask's slipping.
No - not only is it you who has no facts, but you have rejected out of hand every single researched and documented "fact" put before you - even to the "factual" dictionary definition of "toxic" and how it applies to the proposed forcible removal of a nomadic people onto a site where they will not only not be able to continue their livelihood, but will - by that definition (accepted by the Israeli health authorities), be slowly poisoned simply by being forced to live in its proximity.
The "fact" that you have refused to comment on the "fact" that the forced removal of people of one national/cultural group in order to make room for another is the act of a Fascist/racist regime - by anybody's definition, is indicative that you are fully aware of this "fact" yet refuse to even acknowledge it.
The real "fact" here is that you have failed to produce one single "fact" yourself; rather you have chosen to deny every "fact" put before you that doesn't favour Israel - the only "facts" you have produced have been invented by you, in "fact" they are lies.
You've done this in support of mass murder (of old and young, men women and especially children), human rights abuses and ethnic cleansing - a "fact" which makes you a supporter of all these and much, much more.
In "fact" it is you that is the "troll" here, and a pretty stomach-heaving one at that.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 04:00 AM

So, nothing to add to the discussion then Jim.
We waited four days for that non-contribution.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 04:55 AM

Incidentally – you typically forgot to mention that Nurse Helen Seigal, despite having given evidence at the Kahan Commission of Enquiry, witnessed Israeli bulldozers destroying refugees houses, and that she saw (heavily armed and well-trained) Israeli soldiers viewing the massacre close hand for three days without lifting a finger to intervene.
The bulldozers were later used to hide the bodies (and, no doubt, build the stadium over the mass graves to hide the evidence)
"We waited four days for that non-contribution."
I assume you were counting the days - are we back at the royal "we"?
Jim Carroll

Ellen Siegel is a Jewish American. She first visited Israel, the West Bank, Gaza and Lebanon in 1972. Since that time she has been an active member and supporter of the Jewish and Israeli peace movements, and has supported the Palestinian solidarity cause. She volunteered her nursing services in 1982 during Israeli's war on Lebanon. She worked in Gaza Hospital, Sabra refugee camp in Beirut and was present during the massacre. She testified before the Kahan Commission of Inquiry. She continues to work part-time as a nurse in WDC, and serves on the Medical Committee of the American Near East Refugee Aid.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 05:08 AM

""Stringsinger, you are a troll.
You start threads and post inflammatory, unsubstantiated accusations.
We know you hate Israel.
Posting more groundless accusations is no contribution.
If you have no facts, fuck off.""

I reckon you hit a nerve there String!

Made the faux polite veneer slip a bit. I always knew it was only a mask.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 05:19 AM

""I reiterate, Zionism has a false equivalency with Judaism. There are Jews all over the world who are disgusted at the actions Israel has taken.""

Not to mention the Jews within Israel itself who are equally disgusted, though of course, as Keith will no doubt tell us, they are all liars and malcontents,........in Keith's fantasy world!

A world in which all, without exception, who criticise any action of the Zionist government of Israel are either liars or antisemites, while all who endorse every action (including Keith himself) are models of moral rectitude and veracity, who spend their days polishing their haloes.

Fantasy barely covers the lunatic impossibility of that mindset.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 05:54 AM

You want something new? - as fresh as this morning's news.
What's a girl to do - ignore, deny or accuse Unicef of being antisemitic - choices, choices?
Jim Carroll

PALESTINIAN CHILDREN ILL-TREATED BY ISRAELI MILITARY, SAYS UNICEF.
MARK WEISS
In Jerusalem

The United Nations Children's Fund (Unicef) has accused Israel of systematic ill- treatment of Palestinian children detained in the West Bank in violation of international law.
Unicef estimated that 700 Palestinian children aged 12-17, most of them boys detained for throwing stones, are arrested, interrogated and held by the Israeli military, police and security agents every year, an average of two a day.
A 22-page report issued yesterday, based on more than 400 cases of detention and ill-treatment documented since 2009, identified practices that "amount to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment", according to the Convention on the Rights of the Child and the Convention against Torture.
According to the report, ill- treatment of Palestinian minors typically begins with the arrest itself, often carried out in the middle of the night by heavily armed soldiers, and continues all the way through prosecution and sentencing.
"The pattern of ill-treatment includes... the practice of blindfolding children and tying their hands with plastic ties, and physical and verbal abuse during transfer to an interrogation site, including the use of painful restraints."
Most children confess at the end of the interrogation, signing forms in Hebrew which they hardly understand, the report says.
"Ultimately, almost all children plead guilty in order to reduce the length of their pretrial detention. Pleading guilty is the quickest way to be released. In short, the system does not allow children to defend themselves," Unicef concluded.
Unicef was also critical of what it termed the inadequacy of the Israeli military court system for processing Palestinian juvenile detainees in an appropriate manner for their age.
Unicef noted some positive changes introduced by Israel in recent years: hand-tying procedures were changed to prevent pain and injury; police are now required to notify the parents of detained children; and children are informed of their right to consult a lawyer.
Israel's foreign ministry stressed the improvements that were welcomed by Unicef and promised to study the report's conclusions and work to implement them through co¬operation with Unicef.
An Israeli army officer said the military was considering videotaping interrogations, and that, from next month, a minor will only be held for a maximum of 48 hours before appearing before a judge.
Qadoura Fares, chairman of the Palestinian prisoners' society, which is in touch with the prisoners and their families, praised the report and called for Israel to be held accountable.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 06:03 AM

Jim
Incidentally – you typically forgot to mention that Nurse Helen Seigal, despite having given evidence at the Kahan Commission of Enquiry, witnessed Israeli bulldozers destroying refugees houses, and that she saw (heavily armed and well-trained) Israeli soldiers viewing the massacre close hand for three days without lifting a finger to intervene.

She reported no complicity.
Yes the militia had Israeli equipment including bulldozers.
The houses destroyed were on the edge of the camp, she said.
Houses on the edge would be fortified by the PLO defenders.
She reported Israelis observing from outside.
Even from rooftops they could not have seen what was happening in the warren of streets.

Don, do you support Stringsinger starting threads with blatant lies and posting inflammatory, unsubstantiated, groundless accusations just to foment an argument?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 06:22 AM

Jim, your last post is not a contribution to the debate, it is starting a new one!
Another thing you always do when losing one.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 06:53 AM

Apartheid Israel – it's official
First this
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2075985/Women-told-sit-buses-Israel-despite-practice-outlawed.html
Now this
http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/03/05/17194265-a-palestinian-rosa-parks-is-needed-israels-segregated-buses-spark-outrage

Jim Carrroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 07:00 AM

And now, another one!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 07:33 AM

Oh no - not the "Old 2013 thread drift" show!!!!
Neither of these are thread drifts - they both relate directly to the human rights record of Israel.
The child abuse report particularly relates directly to UN condemnation of Israel for human rights abuses against children by Israel
You do not get out of either of these by scurrying behind the old tried-'n -failed "thread drift" defence.
You can't pick-'n-mix which particular human rights abuses and war crimes you want to defend on a thread that you have drifted to the "good treatment and equality of all Israeli citizens - and various other human rights abuses - sorry 'bout that.
PLEASE RESPOND TO THESE ABUSES.
And by the way - Helen Seigal specifically reported seeing the Israeli troops standing by watching the massacres take place OVER THREE DAYS and doing exactly nothing and then destroying the evidence with bulldozers - is this right, antisemitic, made up, or what?
Perhaps in quoting witnesses, it is wiser to steer clear of those with a conscience, especially those who went off and joined the Palestinian Solidarity campaign on the strength of their experiences.
Y'all have a good day, d'you hear now!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 07:46 AM

Helen Seigal specifically reported seeing the Israeli troops standing by watching the massacres take place OVER THREE DAYS and doing exactly nothing and then destroying the evidence with bulldozers - is this right, antisemitic, made up, or what?

Made up Jim.
When she was led out of the camp in the aftermath she reported Israeli soldiers outside the camp looking in.
Even from rooftops they could not have witnessed events in the streets.

Jim, Israel is NOT the worst country in the world so why do you single it out.
All countries are criticised from time to time.

Israel's response.
Buses.
The reality is exactly the opposite – there are no "Palestinian only" buses. Instead, with its new bus routes, Israel is reducing crowded buses, attempting to relieve ethnic tensions and security concerns, and is assisting Arab Palestinians enter Green Line Israel to work. But we'll get to the facts – which exonerate Israel from "Apartheid" charges – in a minute. For right now you can rest assured that despite efforts to cast the Arab Palestinians in the role of Rosa Parks, a closer fit would be to cast the purveyors of this latest attack as peddlers of the Big Lie.

The bare fact: the Israeli government added two bus lines (so far, there was overcrowding on Monday, March 4, the first day the service was instituted, and the Transportation Ministry said more buses will likely be added) that will serve Arab Palestinian towns with transportation into central Israel. The Israeli bus lines previously did not stop in towns controlled by the Palestinian Authority. Despite the efforts of BDS advocates, there are tens of thousands of Arab Palestinians who work in different parts of Israel. Arab Palestinians with work permits would previously have to travel first to a place where the Israeli buses stop, or would be dependent on the much higher-priced Arab buses to get into central Israel.

So why the hysteria? Because some see this as an evil plot to segregate Jews and Arabs. But non-citizens are not entitled to use Israeli public transportation into central Israel without showing border identification, and prior to the provision of these new bus lines, Arab Palestinians were dependent on transportation services by "pirate" (Arab, by the way) companies which charged the Arabs far more than the Israeli lines do.
The new bus lines are not, as the misleading headlines suggest, only for Arab Palestinians, the restriction they have is that they only stop at Arab towns in the territories

Child prisoners.
Figures from the end of January showed that of the 233 of the "children" currently held in custody, 202 of them were over the age of 16, according to the AFP news agency.

The report, entitled, "Children in Israeli Military Detention," claimed, "Ill treatment of Palestinian children in the Israeli military detention system appears to be widespread, systematic and institutionalized."

In response, Israel's Foreign Ministry said it had provided UNICEF with material used in the report and pledged to work towards implementation of its conclusions.

"Israel will study the conclusions and will work to implement them through ongoing cooperation with UNICEF, whose work we value and respect," a Foreign Ministry statement said.

The majority of PA Arab teens incarcerated and referred to in the report were apparently arrested for hurling rocks at Israeli motorists – an act intended to kill, and which has sometimes succeeded.

Last December, a 17-year-old rock-throwing Arab nearly killed a baby when the huge rock he hurled at an Israeli car smashed the window a few inches from the infant. Mainstream media ignored the attack.

"We were saved by a miracle," "Roie," a resident of Samaria, told Arutz Sheva. "I do not even want to think what would have happened if the rock had hit the baby."

A year earlier, rock-throwing road terrorists succeeded in murdering Kiryat Arba resident Asher Palmer and his toddler son, Yonaton, when they threw a rock at Palmer's car from a passing vehicle on Highway 60 in Judea. The murder, which to police at first appeared to be a routine traffic accident, later was proved through evidence to be a terrorist attack.

In 2011 a 17-year-old PA youth, Hakim Awad, was arrested for the murder of five members of one family, including a 3-month-old baby girl.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 09:08 AM

"Made up Jim."
So the witness you have been quoting in favour of your argument is a liar - how clumsy of you.
"Rosa Parks"
So the outcry that is taking place over the segregation of buses, including the Daily Mail are all by anti Semite liars
Ah well, you live and learn.
"Child prisoners."
Even if these children taken into custody (700 of them) were what you describe as rock-throwing terrorists, International law demands that they receive fair treatment and correct procedure - they have received neither from the Israelis which makes the Israeli regime what - you guessed it as human rights abuser and international criminal.
These are children and the Israeli regime are fascist thugs who have been caught violently abusing child prisoners.
I can't he;lp but notice that your "information" comes without links which , yep, you guessed it again - it is all your own work.   
As you so succinctly nearly said to Stringsinger
Stringsinger, ......You ...... post unsubstantiated accusations.
We know you hate......Jews (see British fascist thread)
Posting more groundless accusations is no contribution.
If you have no facts, fuck off."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 09:32 AM


So the witness you have been quoting in favour of your argument is a liar - how clumsy of you.
She is no liar.
She just never said that.
YOU made it up Jim.

You could have googled the text to find the sources.
I will do it for you now.
http://www.jewishpress.com/news/palestinian-only-buses-in-israel-goebbels-big-lies-are-back/2013/03/05/0/
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/165943#.UTiAPB3jeTM

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 11:17 AM

Nope - by your own rules neither of those count as information - they are denials by a press which supports continuing Israeli atrocities - you have rejected information by neutral bodies, and not so neutral bodies such as the the UN, Amnesty..... Human Rights watch (which you have used when it suits you) extremist Daily Mail, so why on earth should anybody here accept what they say - now even the word of a nurse who gave evidence to the Kahan Committee (she actually said that she saw Israeli soldiers viewing the massacre through binoculars.
You have called soldiers who were at the massacre and were greatly disturbed at the behaviour of their own troops "liars".
Throughout this thread you have abandoned any attempts at even claiming to provide real evidence.
You have abandoned any attempts to hide your now open dishonesty by lying publicly.
More disturbingly, you now appear to have abandoned your fanaticism and nreplaced it with simple-mindedness verging on insanity.
You are one sick cookie!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 11:51 AM

Those sources gave the Israeli side of the bus and child prisoners stories.

The nurse saw IDF soldiers observing, a mile away from the edge of the camps, after the massacre.
The camps stretched for over a mile beyond that, and are a warren of narrow streets and densely packed buildings.
They could not have seen events happening in those distant streets.

You made up that, "Helen Seigal specifically reported seeing the Israeli troops standing by watching the massacres take place OVER THREE DAYS and doing exactly nothing and then destroying the evidence with bulldozers"

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 12:52 PM

"Helen Seigal specifically reported seeing the Israeli troops standing by watching the massacres take place OVER THREE DAYS and doing exactly nothing and then destroying the evidence with bulldozers"
You've had the information - look for it yourself; I'm through providing links to a little shit who doesn't read it, provides no links of his own or when he is forced to, only provides it from a human rights abuser - BY HIS OWN ADMISSION.
You have rejected out of hand the press reports on the bus segregation and also the Unicef report on prisoner abuse and replaced it with the Israeli's own account - tell us why they differ or in your own words, "If you have no facts, fuck off."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 01:06 PM

Another eye witness account of the massacre for you to ignore but for others to read.
Jim Carroll

FROM BEIRUT TO JERUSALEM
EYE-WITNESS TO SABRA-SHATILA MASSACRE
Dr.Ang Swee Chai
"The slaughter of unarmed children, women, the aged and the infirm was shocking. For me, I was doubly outraged that I had to discover the truth about a brave and generous people only through their deaths. Until then, I never knew Palestinian refugees existed. As a fundamentalist Christian, I had been a supporter of Israel, hated Arabs and saw the Palestinian Liberation Organisation as terrorists to be loathed and feared."
Extract from the back cover of her book "From Beirut To Jerusalem"

Dr Ang Swee Chai grew up supporting Israel. Arabs, she was told, were terrorists. But in 1982, on the television she saw the relentless bombing of Beirut by Israeli planes. Shocked, her view of Israel began to change. It was then that she heard of an international appeal for an orthopaedic surgeon to treat war victims in Beirut. The petit woman - she was just under 1.5 meters - resigned her job in London, bade her husband farewell and set out on a journey to civil war Beirut, there she was to eye-witness the Sabra-Shatila massacres*.
With her husband Francis Khoo, and some friends, Dr Ang Swee Chai helped to form the British charity, Medical Aid for Palestinians (MAP), following the 1982 Sabra-Shatila massacres. In 1987, PLO chairman Yasser Arafat awarded Dr Ang Swee Chai the "Star of Palestine" the highest award for service to the Palestinian people.
The Massacre
The phalange militia were Israel's proxy in Lebanon, their members were recruited from the Maronite Christian community. They were payed for, trained and armed by Israel. They were effectively an extension of the IDF, and were usually sent in to do the dirty work.
After Sharon's army had taken West Beirut and sealed off all escapes routes from the Palestinian refugee camps, Sharon ordered the phalange in. The official order from Sharon read "for the operation in the camps the phalange should be sent in"*. Knowing that the camps were full of unarmed civilians - mainly women and children, only around 150 phalange were deployed. The testimonies of the survivors suggest that both Israeli soldiers and their mercenaries the Phalange entered the camps and participated in the massacre**.
The Israelis supervised the operation from their forward command post, a six story building overlooking the camps. From there they gave logistic support and relayed orders to the soldiers on the ground. Concerned that reports of the on-going slaughter would leak out, the soldiers were ordered to continue the killing through out the night - to facilitate this the Israelis lit up the sky with flares all night long. The idea was to kill as many Palestinians as quickly as possible, before international pressure would put a stop to the operation. Over 3000 elderly men, women and children were murdered. Next the evidence had to be buried quickly - so the Israelis send in bulldozers. Houses were packed with bodies and demolished to form mass graves. One such mass grave contained a thousand bodies.
*see BBC Panorama "The Accused" 2001.
** Survivors interviewd on 22 Sep reported that many of the soldiers who did the killing did not speak Arabic and Israeli newspapers (in Hebrew) and Israeli food rations were found left behind. A young boy, Munir, who was left for dead under a heap of 27 bodies confirmed that he has seen both Israelis and Phalange murdering people, when he was brought to Gaza Hospital on 17 Sept. (Src: 'From Beirut To Jerusalem' pgs 61, 69 & 71)
http://inminds.co.uk/from-beirut-to-jerusalem.html

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 01:49 PM

""Jim, your last post is not a contribution to the debate, it is starting a new one!
Another thing you always do when losing one.""

While your insistence on adding Egyptian treatment of Bedouins to a discussion of Israeli action is, of course, entirely acceptable when you are losing.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 02:57 PM

You've had the information - look for it yourself;

I have and can provide links if you want.
She said no such thing.
She was in the hospital throughout the massacres, and was unaware of them.
She saw her first Israelis a mile outside the camp and after the massacres.

Dr.Ang Swee Chai also does not report seeing any such thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 03:17 PM

Does anyone know how to get a hold of Frank Hamilton? It seems that someone in Iran named Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has hacked his Mudcat account and has been posting in this thread as Stringsinger.

AIPAC has surreptitiously placed a gag order on mainstream media's reporting on Israel.
Al Jazeera may be the only source left on TV to get to the truth.
The Netanyahu warmongers have infiltrated the US government and they are terrified of AIPAC. The so-called Jewish lobby exerts undue influence in the US.
This is the reason that reportage is not only inaccurate when it exists but mostly is absent from the air ways.

For this reason, we are unable to get the real facts on this issue and must resort to wild speculation and ad hominem arguments.

The evidence is here, though. Any attempt to land supplies to the Palestinians is shut off by Israeli attacks.

The evidence presented here by pro-Israeli fanatics has to be specious.

The Palestinian people are suffering at the hands of Israel. That is indisputable.

The danger is that Israel could trigger another world war unless brakes are put upon their expansion by the international community.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 03:56 PM

In regard to Stringsinger's comments, many people in North America and Europe, as well as in the Muslim world, still believe that the forgery known as The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is a true and accurate picture of Jews. Twenty first century European surveys, media coverage, cartoons, and direct verbal and physical attacks upon European Jews, Jewish Centers, and synagogues all document a rising hatred towards Jews and towards the only Jewish state (which is seen as controlling the world and the media). And, in 2012, a survey in the United States, found that 35 million American adults (or 15% of the population) believe that "Jews have too much power in the United States" and are "more willing to use shady practices." More than 70 million American adults believed that American Jews are "more loyal to Israel than to America." Sadly, Stringsinger's thinking is not all that unusual.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 04:06 PM

Yes, even though he is Jewish and entitled to be an Israeli.