BS: Israel condemned by UN

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 04:36 PM

Opened for signature in 1968, the Treaty entered into force in 1970. On 11 May 1995, the Treaty was extended indefinitely. A total of 190 parties have joined the Treaty, with five states being recognized as nuclear-weapon states: the United States, Russia, the United Kingdom, France, and China (also the five permanent members of the United Nations Security Council).

Four non-parties to the treaty are known or believed to possess nuclear weapons: India, Pakistan and North Korea have openly tested and declared that they possess nuclear weapons, while Israel has had a policy of opacity regarding its own nuclear weapons program. North Korea acceded to the treaty in 1985, but never came into compliance, and announced its withdrawal in 2003.

he NPT is often seen to be based on a central bargain: "the NPT non-nuclear-weapon states agree never to acquire nuclear weapons and the NPT nuclear-weapon states in exchange agree to share the benefits of peaceful nuclear technology and to pursue nuclear disarmament aimed at the ultimate elimination of their nuclear arsenals".[




...........

Israel is widely believed to possess nuclear weapons[6][7] and to be the sixth country in the world to develop them.[1] It is one of four nuclear-armed countries not recognized as a Nuclear Weapons State by the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT), the others being India, Pakistan and North Korea.[8] Israel maintains a policy known as "nuclear ambiguity" (also known as "nuclear opacity").[9][10] Israel has never officially admitted to having nuclear weapons, instead repeating over the years that it would not be the first country to "introduce" nuclear weapons to the Middle East, leaving ambiguity as to whether it means it will not create, will not disclose, will not make first use of the weapons or possibly some other interpretation of the phrase.[11] The "not be the first" formulation goes back to before March 11, 1965, when a cable from the U.S. Embassy in Tel Aviv to Washington noted "The Government of Israel has reaffirmed that Israel will not be the first to introduce nuclear weapons into the Arab-Israel area."[12] Israel has refused to sign the NPT despite international pressure to do so, and has stated that signing the NPT would be contrary to its national security interests.[13]
Israel started investigating the nuclear field soon after its founding in 1948 and with French support secretly began building a nuclear reactor and reprocessing plant in the late 1950s. Israel is alleged to have developed a nuclear weapon in the late 1960s, but it is not publicly confirmed.[dubious – discuss] Mordechai Vanunu, a former Israeli nuclear technician, provided explicit details and photographs to the London Sunday Times of a nuclear weapons program[14] in which he had been employed for nine years, "including equipment for extracting radioactive material for arms production and laboratory models of thermonuclear devices."[15]
Estimates as to the size of the Israeli nuclear arsenal vary between 75 and 400 nuclear warheads, with most estimates at less than 200 warheads. It is also estimated that Israel has the ability to deliver them by the intercontinental ballistic missile Jericho III, aircraft, and submarine.[2]

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 04:41 PM

" I am saying that it is immoral for Israel to have WMD's and not be a part of the NPT"


Of course, you will apply the same to India, Pakistan, and North Korea????

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 05:06 PM

It's no use BB, "there's none so blind as those who will not see."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 03:55 AM

Yesterday.
Don, please explain what was the lie you shreekingly accused me of, and if Israel treats " its neighbours as targets for its insatiable desire for expansion." how come it is still so very, VERY tiny?

Steve, " well-known perpetrator of war crimes, including carrying out civilian massacres"
Who is it "well known" to?
Any respectable governments?

Stringsinger, apart from limited operations against war criminals who murder ordinary Israelis, what are these continuous wars that Moshe Dayan has been leading his spectral armies in?
In what way is Israel a "theocracy" when the whole world knows it is a secular, liberal democracy?
You also refer to Israel's "expansion."
So why is it so tiny?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 06:03 AM

BBC today.

Jordan's King Abdullah II has said Egypt's president has "no depth" of understanding of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

In interviews with The Atlantic magazine, the king said Mohamed Morsi was fixated on the Israelis, rather than looking at "the mess" on the Palestinian side.

King Abdullah also served up views of Turkish and Syrian leaders.

The Atlantic article was based on a series of meetings with the king.

The interviews were conducted by US journalist Jeffrey Goldberg.

In one comment, the 51-year-old king said he was wary of Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan of Turkey for being authoritarian, and promoting what he said was just a softer-edged version of Political Islam.

"Erdogan once said that democracy for him is a bus ride," King Abdullah told the magazine. " 'Once I get to my stop, I'm getting off'."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 06:33 AM

""Despite being the only democracy in the Middle East, Israel routinely faces more criticism and condemnation at the United Nations than any other country, including those that systematically kill their citizens or deny them the most basic of human rights.""

Oh of course! Israel shouldn't be criticised, because it only kills the citizens of its neighbours, whenever and wherever it so chooses.

Apparently aggression is the new defence.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 06:45 AM

Egypt is a neighbour.
Any killed other than by Arabs?
Jordan is a neighbour.
Any killed by Israel.
Syria, apart from a couple of illegal gun runners to Hezbollah.
Only Gaza then, and only because Gaza initiated a criminal, indiscriminate programme of missile attacks against ordinary, cowering Jewish families.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 06:46 AM

""In what way is Israel a "theocracy" when the whole world knows it is a secular, liberal democracy?
You also refer to Israel's "expansion."
So why is it so tiny?""

So why do you, BB and Bobad keep referring to it as a ""Jewish State?""

As to expansion, it's a bit difficult to answer without mentioning the creeping annexation of the West Bank, which you don't want to admit or discuss.

But in any case, Israel is a lot less tiny than it was in 1948 when it came into existence.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 06:54 AM

Israel is NOT a lot less tiny than it was in 1948 when it came into existence, but a lot more tiny than when it held half of Egypt!

Are you saying that because it is sometimes referred to as The Jewish State it is not a secular democracy?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 07:12 AM

Israel is one of the tiniest nations on the face of the earth... only about 8,000 sq. miles, 2½ times the size of Rhode Island and only slightly larger than the Canary Islands!. It is only 260 miles at its longest, has a 112-mile coastline, 60 miles at its widest, and between 3 and 9 miles at its narrowest! A very high-powered rifle could launch a projectile right across the country! This is particularly frightening when one considers that 65% of Israel's population is within this 9-mile wide section (Tel Aviv area). Yet Arab propagandists call Israel "expansionist" and the "aggressor" against all Arab peoples. For those unfamiliar with the Arab interpretation of "aggressor," it means one who dares fight back against Arab aggression!! So even though Israel may have fought only defensive wars, the mere fact that she resisted total destruction is viewed as an "act of aggression." That's a case of wacky logic but, unfortunately, Israel doesn't have the luxury of picking her enemies!
http://www.masada2000.org/geography.html

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 11:46 AM

The fact that this is a tiny area doesn't make up for the fact that it has one of the most extensive armaments in the world including nuclear bombs. The incursion into the Palestinian areas can hardly be called "defensive". That's Orwellian and wacky logic.

The history that Bobad supplied was interesting but incomplete, however, I do agree with him that this Mid-East war is a religious one between Judaism and Islam.

This supports my thesis that most wars can be reduced to religious conflict. That's a separate thread, however.

The reason Bobad and BB refer to it as a Jewish state is that is it now a theocracy.
Not all Jews support Zionism and Israeli policies.

And yes, BB it is immoral for these countries to deny the NPT as well. They are India, Pakistan, Israel and Cuba. North Korea signed and then unsigned later.

Israel: has not publicly conducted a nuclear test but has never admitted or denied possessing nuclear weapons. However, it is believed that Israel does posses nuclear weapons based on how much fissile material (highly enriched uranium and plutonium) the country is known to have produced. Fissile material is an essential component in order to create nuclear weapons.

Iran: is not known to posses any nuclear weapons or adequate fissile material to build any. However, the International Atomic Energy agency (IAEA) – the a UN organization in charge of ensuring that states do not build nuclear weapons illegally - concluded in 2003 that Iran had tried to establish the capacity to build fissile material. Iran's nuclear program is under continuing investigation by the IAEA.

So Israel and the U.S. have WMD's but Iran doesn't. This smacks of hypocrisy by Israel and the U.S. as an excuse to bomb Iran.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 12:06 PM

There are theocracies in Israel's neighbourhood but it is a secular democracy by any definition except Stringsinger's.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 12:54 PM

Bobad, this is nonsense. It is predicated on the notion that a religious group, (and Judaism is a religion) owns the land by virtue of their beliefs. It is not a secular democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 03:35 PM

It is a secular democracy and not a theocracy.
I defy you, Stringsinger, to find any reputable source to substantiate your latest, ludicrous, load of bollocks.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 03:41 PM

It is NOT predicated on the notion that a religious group, (and Judaism is a religion) owns the land by virtue of their beliefs.

It is predicated on the fact that a secular, international body, the UN,
with the blessing of almost the entire world, gave a tiny sliver of the vast lands of the Middle East as a homeland for the Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 04:06 PM

""Are you saying that because it is sometimes referred to as The Jewish State it is not a secular democracy?""

Are you saying that Jewish is a race and not a religious persuasion.

Because that would be a lie, and you don't lie, so you keep telling us.

Your constant reference to it as a ""Jewish State"" is nothing more or less than a subterfuge in a futile attempt to get one of us to make a comment you can twist into antisemitism.

Israel's Jewish population is 6 million, which is 75.4% of the total 7.98 million. Just over 20% are Arab, with about 4% described as "other".

So only somewhat less than half of the world's 13 million Jews are Israeli.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 04:27 PM

Christian countries
The following states recognize some form of Christianity as their state or official religion (by denomination):
[edit]Catholic
Jurisdictions which recognize Catholicism as their state or official religion:
Alsace-Moselle
Costa Rica[2]
Liechtenstein[3]
Malta[4]
Monaco[5]
Vatican City (theocracy)
Other
A number of countries, including Andorra, Argentina,[6] Dominican Republic, El Salvador,[7] Panama, Paraguay,[8] Peru,[9] Poland,[10] Portugal and Spain[11] give special recognition to Catholicism in their constitutions despite not making it the state religion.
All Swiss cantons give official recognition to both the Roman Catholic Church and the Swiss Reformed Church, except Geneva and Neuchâtel. Switzerland itself has no official religion.
[edit]Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdictions which recognize one of the Eastern Orthodox Churches as their state religion:
Greece: Church of Greece[12]
Other
The Finnish Orthodox Church[13] is not the state religion of Finland but has a special relationship with the Finnish state. The internal structure of the church is described in the Orthodox Church Act. The church has a power to tax its members and corporations if a majority of shareholders are members. The church does not consider itself a state church, as the state does not have the authority to affect its internal workings or theology.
[edit]Protestantism
[edit]Lutheran
Jurisdictions which recognize a Lutheran church as their state religion include the Nordic countries. Membership is very high among the general population, however the amount of actively participating members and believers is considerably lower than in many other countries with similar membership statistics. Furthermore, all of these churches have lately seen decline in the fraction of the population being members.
Denmark (Church of Denmark)[14] Also the Church of the Faroe Islands is the state church of the Faroe Islands, a territory of Denmark.
Iceland (Church of Iceland)[15] (76.81% of population members at 1 January 2012) [16]
Norway (Church of Norway) [17]
Other
The Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland has a special relationship with the Finnish state, its internal structure being described in a special law, the Church Act.[13] The Church Act can be amended only by a decision of the Synod of the Evangelical Lutheran Church and subsequent ratification by the parliament. The Church Act is protected by the Finnish constitution, and the state can not change the Church Act without changing the constitution. The church has a power to tax its members and all corporations unless a majority of shareholders are members of the Finnish Orthodox Church. The state collects these taxes for the church, for a fee. On the other hand, the church is required to give a burial place for everyone in its graveyards.[18] (77.2% of population members at the end of 2011).[19] The Finnish president also decides the themes for the intercession days. The church does not consider itself a state church, as the Finnish state does not have the power to influence its internal workings or its theology, although it has a veto in those changes of the internal structure which require changing the Church Act. Neither does the Finnish state accord any precedence to Lutherans or the Lutheran faith in its own acts.
Sweden relegated their state church, Church of Sweden, to a national church in 2000. In late 2011 the Church of Sweden had 68.8% of the population as its members in 2011 although only around 20% of the Swedish population believes in any religion. Memberships are high because until 1996 membership was compulsory, all born before 1996 have to actively leave the church.[20]
[edit]Reformed
Jurisdictions which recognize a Reformed church as their state religion:
Tuvalu (Church of Tuvalu)
Other
The Church of Scotland is recognized as the national church of Scotland, but is not a state church and thus differs from the Church of England. Its constitution, which is recognised by acts of the British Parliament, gives it complete independence from the state in spiritual matters.[21]
All Cantons in Switzerland give recognition to the main churches, i. e. both the Swiss Reformed Church and the Roman Catholic Church, except Geneva and Neuchâtel. Switzerland itself has no official religion.
[edit]Anglican
See also: State religion#Tabular summary
Jurisdictions that recognise an Anglican church as their state religion:
England (Church of England)
The Church of England is the officially established religious institution [22] in England, and also the Mother Church of the worldwide Anglican Communion. It is the only established Anglican Church. The British monarch is the Supreme Governor of the Church of England and is Defender of the Faith. In 19th century England there was a campaign by Liberals, dissenters and nonconformists to disestablish the Church of England, even when most of its privileges had been removed by Parliament. The campaigners styled themselves "Liberationists" (the "Liberation Society" was founded by Edward Miall in 1853). Though their campaign failed, nearly all of the legal disabilities of nonconformists were gradually dismantled. The campaign for disestablishment was revived in the 20th century when Parliament rejected the 1929 revision of the Book of Common Prayer, leading to calls for separation of Church and State to prevent political interference in matters of worship.
Lords Spiritual, who are the 26 most senior Archbishops and Bishops in the Church are reserved seats in Parliament in the House of Lords. The Archbishop of Canterbury, Archbishop of York, Bishop of London, Bishop of Durham, and the Bishop of Winchester sit automatically with the 21 longest-serving Bishops. Both the Labour Party and the Conservative Party have proposed reserved seats for the Lords Spiritual in a reformed House of Lords which would contain elected members. Plans to reform the house however, have been abandoned for this current Parliament and so all 26 Lords Spiritual remain in their reserved seats.
[edit]Muslim countries
Main articles: Political aspects of Islam, Sharia, Caliphate, Islamic religious police (disambiguation), and Islamism

This section needs additional citations for verification. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (April 2012)
Many Muslim-majority countries recognize Islam as their state religion. Proselytism on behalf of other religions is often illegal.
[edit]Islam (non-denominational)
Iraq
Pakistan
[edit]Sunni Islam
Afghanistan
Algeria
Bangladesh (Since 1988, when government reformed the constitution and add a new provision 2(a) which refers the state religion is Islam)
Brunei
Comoros
Egypt
Aceh Province of Indonesia
Jordan
Libya
Maldives
Malaysia
Mauritania
Morocco
Qatar
Saudi Arabia
Somalia
Tunisia
United Arab Emirates
[edit]Shi'a Islam
Iran (Theocracy)
[edit]Ibadi
Oman
[edit]Mixed Shia & Sunni
Kuwait
Yemen (Zaydi fiqh among Zaydi Shias)
Bahrain
[edit]Sufi
Somalia (Ahlu Sunna Waljama'a controlled regions)
[edit]Buddhist countries
Governments which recognize Buddhism, either a specific form of, or the whole, as their official religion:
[edit]Theravada Buddhism
Cambodia[23]
Other
The constitution in Sri Lanka accords Buddhism the "foremost place," However, Buddhism is not recognized as the state religion.[24]
Likewise, in Thailand, the 2007 Thai constitution recognized Buddhism as "the religion of Thai tradition with the most adherents" However, it is not formally named as state religion.
[edit]Vajrayana Buddhism
Bhutan (Drukpa Kagyu school of Tibetan Buddhism)[25]
[edit]Israel
Israel is defined in several of its laws as a "Jewish and democratic state" (medina yehudit ve-demokratit). However, the term "Jewish" is a polyseme that can relate equally to the Jewish people or religion (see: Who is a Jew?). The debate about the meaning of the term Jewish and its legal and social applications is one of the most profound issues with which Israeli society deals.
At present, there is no specific law or official statement establishing the Jewish religion as the state's religion. However, the State of Israel supports religious institutions, particularly Orthodox Jewish ones, and recognizes the "religious communities" as carried over from those recognized under the British Mandate. These are: Jewish and Christian (Eastern Orthodox, Latin [Catholic], Gregorian-Armenian, Armenian-Catholic, Syrian [Catholic], Chaldean [Uniate], Greek Catholic Melkite, Maronite, and Syrian Orthodox). The fact that the Muslim population was not defined as a religious community is a vestige of the Ottoman period[citation needed] during which Islam was the dominant religion and does not affect the rights of the Muslim community to practice their faith. At the end of the period covered by this report, several of these denominations were pending official government recognition; however, the Government has allowed adherents of not officially recognized groups freedom to practice. In 1961, legislation gave Muslim Shari'a courts exclusive jurisdiction in matters of personal status. Three additional religious communities have subsequently been recognized by Israeli law – the Druze (prior under Islamic jurisdiction), the Evangelical Episcopal Church, and the Bahá'í.[26] These groups have their own religious courts as official state courts for personal status matters (see millet system).
The structure and goals of the Chief Rabbinate of Israel are governed by Israeli law, but the law does not say explicitly that it is a state Rabbinate. However, outspoken Israeli secularists such as Shulamit Aloni and Uri Avnery have long maintained that it is that in practice. Non-recognition of other streams of Judaism such as Reform Judaism and Conservative Judaism is the cause of some controversy; rabbis belonging to these currents are not recognized as such by state institutions and marriages performed by them are not recognized as valid. As of 2011 marriage in Israel provides no provision for civil marriage, marriage between people of different religions, marriages by people who do not belong to one of nine recognised religious communities, or same-sex marriages, although there is recognition of marriages performed abroad.
[edit]Additional notes
Nepal was once the world's only Hindu state, but has ceased to be so following a declaration by the Parliament in 2006.
Many countries indirectly fund the activities of different religious denominations by granting tax-exempt status to churches and religious institutions which qualify as charitable organizations.[27][28] However, these religions are not established as state religions.
[edit]

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 04:29 PM

In case that much strains some here...


Jurisdictions that recognise an Anglican church as their state religion:
England (Church of England)
The Church of England is the officially established religious institution [22] in England, and also the Mother Church of the worldwide Anglican Communion. It is the only established Anglican Church. The British monarch is the Supreme Governor of the Church of England and is Defender of the Faith. In 19th century England there was a campaign by Liberals, dissenters and nonconformists to disestablish the Church of England, even when most of its privileges had been removed by Parliament. The campaigners styled themselves "Liberationists" (the "Liberation Society" was founded by Edward Miall in 1853). Though their campaign failed, nearly all of the legal disabilities of nonconformists were gradually dismantled. The campaign for disestablishment was revived in the 20th century when Parliament rejected the 1929 revision of the Book of Common Prayer, leading to calls for separation of Church and State to prevent political interference in matters of worship.
Lords Spiritual, who are the 26 most senior Archbishops and Bishops in the Church are reserved seats in Parliament in the House of Lords. The Archbishop of Canterbury, Archbishop of York, Bishop of London, Bishop of Durham, and the Bishop of Winchester sit automatically with the 21 longest-serving Bishops. Both the Labour Party and the Conservative Party have proposed reserved seats for the Lords Spiritual in a reformed House of Lords which would contain elected members. Plans to reform the house however, have been abandoned for this current Parliament and so all 26 Lords Spiritual remain in their reserved seats.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 04:31 PM

AND England is a Nuclear Power!!!


With conquered territories all over the world- When will they let them go free??????

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 04:50 PM

"Jewish State" is just a common, alternative label for Israel.
It's use does not alter the fact that Israel is a liberal, secular democracy.
"The term "Jewish state" has been in common usage in the media since the establishment of Israel, and the term was used interchangeably with Israel. The first US official to use the term was then United States Secretary of State Colin L. Powell in a 2001 speech on the Middle East, in which he briefly called on Palestinians to recognize Israel as a "Jewish state" after an Israeli diplomat convinced an aide to slip the phrase into his speech. George W. Bush used the term in his speeches and in a controversial exchange of letters with Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon in 2004.[2] Obama has also adopted the phrase, most recently in a speech in September 2010 to the U.N. General Assembly"

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 04:52 PM

Israel is a Jewish state (The ONLY one), just as many countries are Christian states, and even more are Muslim states.


Not a single Muslim state has a tenth of the percentage of world Muslims that Israel has of the world's Jewish population.


But it seems to ONLY be a problem for Jews. Everyone else can have as many states as they want and no one complains. Right, Don?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 04:57 PM

Your constant reference to it as a ""Jewish State"" is nothing more or less than a subterfuge in a futile attempt to get one of us to make a comment you can twist into antisemitism.

Not me Don.
It is just a common usage.
Whatever you choose to call it, Israel is a liberal and secular democracy, and Stringsinger talks complete bollocks from a position of extreme ignorance, and I am amazed that you choose to align yourself with him and appear to be as stupidly ignorant as he is.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 06:12 PM

Which Christian theocracies are you going on about, Bruce?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 06:35 PM

"the term "Jewish" is a polyseme that can relate equally to the Jewish people or religion"

Not according to our resident experts on Jewish matters.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 08:10 PM

Israel is a liberal and secular democracy

OH, I believe you, Keith, but thousands wouldn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 12:01 AM

Eric Silver writes in the February, 1990 issue of Political Quarterly:

Israel's Proclamation of Independence makes few concessions to the Almighty. The word 'God' does not appear, though there is a passing reference to trusting in the 'Rock of Israel'. Israel, it decrees, will be a Jewish state, but the concept is nowhere defined. The state, it says, 'will be based on the principles of liberty, justice and peace as conceived by the Prophets of Israel; will uphold the full social and political equality of all its citizens, without distinction of religion, race, or sex; will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, education and culture; will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions; and will loyally uphold the principles of the United Nations Charter'.

Every student of modern Israel should reread the proclamation of May 14, 1948, at least once a year. It is a reminder of the secular vision of the founding fathers. Israel was to be a modern democratic state, an expression of Jewish nationalism rather than Jewish faith. The text reads as if the drafting committee was more familiar with the American and French revolutions than with the intricacies of Talmud. The phrase 'as conceived by the Prophets of Israel' is little more than rhetoric. Which of the Prophets were they talking about?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 12:11 AM

The 2013 Freedom in the World annual survey and report by U.S.-based Freedom House, which attempts to measure the degree of democracy and political freedom in every nation, ranked Israel as the Middle East and North Africa's only free country.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: GUEST,keith A
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 03:54 AM

http://www.freedomhouse.org/sites/default/files/FIW%202013%20Booklet.pdf

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 06:38 AM

""Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Greg F. - PM
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 08:10 PM

Israel is a liberal and secular democracy

OH, I believe you, Keith, but thousands wouldn't.""

Most of them Bedouins!

Israel is governed by a bunch of zionist theocrats, with a liking for annexing other peoples territory, and a total and arrogant disrespect for national borders, which they violate whenever the fancy takes them.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 08:04 AM

DonT is reverting back to the same old lies because the previous few posts have totally destroyed his contentions re the terms "Jewish state" and "theocracy".......squirming much Don?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 08:52 AM

Israel is governed by a bunch of zionist theocrats,
No Don.
By elected politicians, including no Rabbis.

with a liking for annexing other peoples territory,
Not true Don.
Having defeated an invasion, they did hold on to some of the land used to invade them.
That is all.

and a total and arrogant disrespect for national borders, which they violate whenever the fancy takes them.
Not when the fancy takes them.
Just temporary crossings to stop murderous, illegal, inhuman missile attacks on their cowering families.

Mostly Bedouins
No, they are a minority, but they are thriving and increasing so rapidly that could change!
They are full citizens and luickier than their brethren elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 10:24 AM

"" ranked Israel as the Middle East and North Africa's only free country.""

I wouldn't disagree with that, given that the whole area is menaced by Israel's massively greater capacity for mayhem and genocide.

Free, however, in this case doesn't necessarily mean democratic, with a hard line government which operates without respect or concern for public opinion.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 10:34 AM

I doubt whether the average Palestinian in Israel, stuck needlessly at a checkpoint for two days, would regard himself as free. Or the guy whose olive grove was wrecked so that the apartheid wall could be driven through his family farm. Or the parents of teenagers shot by remote-controlled unmanned rifles at the Gaza border. Or the Bedouins kicked out of their villages. Or the people driven off the best West Bank land in order for ever more illegal settlements to go up. Whether you're free or not depends on a little more than your country's ranking on a rather facile three-point scale.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 10:42 AM

You forgot to mention that they have their missile firing and suicide bomber brethren to thank for the security precautions so I will do it for you. You're welcome.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 11:06 AM

"" ranked Israel as the Middle East and North Africa's only free country.""

I wouldn't disagree with that, given that the whole area is menaced by Israel's massively greater capacity for mayhem and genocide.

The whole of North Africa and the whole Middle East all menaced by a tiny sliver of land invisible on most maps.
Is Israel responsible for the mayhem in Syria, Egypt, Yemen, Libya, Tunisia, Mali, Algeria, ......

Don, when Israel is mentioned you become irrational and lose your reason.
You are even more comical than Stringsinger's barmy bloopers!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 11:09 AM

Or the parents of teenagers shot by remote-controlled unmanned rifles at the Gaza border.
You made that up Steve!
Also the "driving off" of people from West Bank.

Those internet sites are based on hatred not truth Steve.
You are being hoodwinked.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 12:27 PM

Keith, the tiny sliver of land that you talk about is not being threatened by all the countries that you cite as being "Arab".

"Freedom House" is a propaganda NGO that follows the automaton line of the current Neo-liberal side of U.S. policy. It's exoneration of Israel is laughable. As for the "Jewish State" line, Judaism remains a religion, not a nationality.

To sound like a broken record, there are many Jews in the world who don't consider Israel as a complete "Jewish State". They don't believe it represents them in their religion. You are the one who is being hoodwinked by a policy that can only end up in Israel being a pariah in the entire world for their inhumane bloodletting of Palestinians. Many of the bombs they have dropped on Palestine during operation "Cast Lead" for example contain depleted uranium which have doomed the children of Palestine who survive with radiation and cancerous growths.

As for "Loopy bloopers" this defines your remarks perfectly.

Bobad, I will not descend into your cesspool of ad hominem remarks. Your tantrums are babyish and you should grow up and discuss this issue like an adult.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 01:10 PM

Stringsinger, it is not possible to have an "adult" conversation with those who insist on continually repeating the same old lies to bolster their argument and I will call them out on it whenever I want to whether you like it or not. Oh, and BTW, this whole thread is premised on a lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 01:19 PM

Bobad, in that case, your assessments as to what are lies and what is reality is skewed.
You have chosen to cop out of a discussion rather than debate the facts. Here's one fact you should consider.

Israel and America

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: bobad
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 01:27 PM

And here's one for you to consider: Gaza rockets hit Israeli town during Obama visit

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 03:46 PM

What is your evidence for dismissing Freedom House?
Is it not widely respected and quoted?

What is your evidence for depleted uranium munitions in Gaza?
They are only useful for piercing armour so I do not believe it.

To sound like a broken record, there are many Jews in the world who don't consider Israel as a complete "Jewish State".
Obviously, because it is not!
It is multi ethnic and multi faith.
They don't believe it represents them in their religion.
Obviously, because it does not.
It is a secular state.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 03:49 PM

You forgot to mention that they have their missile firing and suicide bomber brethren to thank for the security precautions so I will do it for you. You're welcome.

Ah yes, the euphemisms of war! "Security precautions" now, is it?? Leaving hundreds of thousands of cluster bomblets all over southern Lebanon to blow off kids' legs for decades to come. Bulldozing whole villages in Gaza. Using white phosphorus to light the way for bombing schools. Stealing the best land for settlements. Throwing Bedouins out of their villages. Facilitating the mass slaughter of civilians in refugee camps. Any chance of your going through these one by one and telling me how each of them adds up to a "security precaution?"

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 03:51 PM

And here's how it should have looked:

You forgot to mention that they have their missile firing and suicide bomber brethren to thank for the security precautions so I will do it for you. You're welcome.

Ah yes, the euphemisms of war! "Security precautions" now, is it?? Leaving hundreds of thousands of cluster bomblets all over southern Lebanon to blow off kids' legs for decades to come. Bulldozing whole villages in Gaza. Using white phosphorus to light the way for bombing schools. Stealing the best land for settlements. Throwing Bedouins out of their villages. Facilitating the mass slaughter of civilians in refugee camps. Any chance of your going through these one by one and telling me how each of them adds up to a "security precaution?"

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 03:51 PM

UNHCR.
"Freedom House is a clear voice for democracy and freedom around the world. Since its founding in 1941, Freedom House has been a vigorous proponent of democratic values and a steadfast opponent of dictatorships of the far left and the far right"
http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/publisher/FREEHOU.html

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 03:53 PM

What is your evidence for dismissing Freedom House?

So we're supposed to give credence to an extremely crude three-point scale, eh? Come on, Keith. You'll have to do better than that.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 03:54 PM

And as I have said before, Israeli governmental policy is apparently not interested in peace in the region but a continuation of dominance over the Palestinian people.

Here's a problem to discuss rationally and not with invective. Hamas and Fatah are a problem for the Palestinian people because they are not together and have antiquated policies. Hamas is not supported unilaterally by the Palestinian people in Gaza. To punish the Palestinian people for Hamas is the ignorant reaction of the Israeli government who incites this terrible reaction.

The settlements in Ariel, Ma'ale Adumin are designed to cut the West Bank into strips and deny the Palestinians the Statehood that they deserve. An illegal occupation is not
self-defense.

Now I expect that we can discuss this without temper tantrums and childish outbursts.

I deplore violence of any kind but I see that the policies of Israel with support from the United States are not in the interest of peace but Israeli expansionism. This has to change.

Peace will come when Palestinians are given a right to their homeland as Israel requires for its self.

The U.S. has got to stop giving Israel armaments that amount to $115 billion a year. This is more than we have given any other country for weaponry.

Taking sides on this issue by proclaiming self-righteous condemnation will not make peace in the region happen. It is the responsibility of course of Israel and the Palestinians but status quo is not the answer.

In the meantime, if the U.S. continues to take sides by supplying one country with weaponry and ignoring Palestinian prisoners subjected to torture, the abuse of Palestinian people, the starving by controlling the amount of goods these people can receive, by keeping them from actually having any semblance of a democracy, they will not be an honest broker.

Israel will never be a democracy in the truest sense until there is a parity between Palestinians and themselves. They will continue to be dictators.

Now that's a real fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 04:04 PM

.Ah yes, the euphemisms of war! "Security precautions" now, is it?? Leaving hundreds of thousands of cluster bomblets all over southern Lebanon to blow off kids' legs for decades to come.Ah yes, the euphemisms of war! "Security precautions" now, is it?? Leaving hundreds of thousands of cluster bomblets all over southern Lebanon to blow off kids' legs for decades to come. Bulldozing whole villages in Gaza. Using white phosphorus to light the way for bombing schools. Stealing the best land for settlements. Throwing Bedouins out of their villages. Facilitating the mass slaughter of civilians in refugee camps. Any chance of your going through these one by one and telling me how each of them adds up to a "security precaution"

OK Steve.
That hazard from cluster bombs was not recognised at the time.
Most countries used them.
Since it became known, responsible countries like Britain and Israel have ceased to stock or use them.
Bulldozing whole villages in Gaza.
Made up.
Throwing Bedouins out of their villages.
No-one is allowed to set up home wherever they want.
Bedouin who have done that have been resettled from their tents and shacks with no services or sanitation into decent homes.

Facilitating the mass slaughter of civilians in refugee camps.
Israel denies ever having done that, and there is no unequivocal evidence for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 04:20 PM

Israel doesn't have to make a single concession, ever. In fact, it can continue to take whatever it likes with impunity, and it does. Sitting down to peace talks would involve compromises, and Israel does not have to, and won't, make any compromises. Why should it? So there will be no peace talks and no Palestinian state. That is the last thing Israel wants, a sovereign state right next door full of the enemies it's managed to make down the decades. The reason for this parlous stalemate is the continuing unconditional bankrolling of Israel's military by the US. That will continue to be unconditional because the Israel lobby, led by AIPAC, does not permit any talk of making aid to Israel conditional on Israel's good behaviour. Actually, there is rarely, if ever, any real talk about what really goes in Israel at all in the US Congress. It is simply not tolerated by AIPAC et al. To go against that, to stir anything up, would be political suicide. To find out what is really happening to the Palestinians you have to dig much deeper than most Americans are willing to dig. Israel is a little tail leading a huge great big dog by the nose. Witness Obama's soft talk in Jerusalem today. He's going nowhere and neither are the Palestinian people.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 04:25 PM

full of the enemies it's managed to make down the decades.

Not down the decades Steve.
Five Arab armies invaded Israel on its first day of existence.
What had Israel done in 24 hours to make all those enemies?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 04:26 PM

Wiki: Israel dropped up to four million submunitions [cluster bomblets] on Lebanese soil, one million of which remain unexploded "duds," according to the United Nations Mine Action Service. Throughout the thirty-four-day conflict, the United States resupplied Israel's arsenal of cluster bombs, which prompted an investigation by the State Department to examine if Israel had violated secret agreements it signed with the United States governing their use.
"Israel Defense Forces Chief of Staff Dan Halutz plans to appoint a major general to investigate the use of cluster bombs — some of which were fired against his order — during the Lebanon war. Halutz ordered the IDF to use cluster bombs with extreme caution and not to fire them into populated areas. Nonetheless, it did so anyway, primarily using artillery batteries and the Multiple Launch System (MRLS). IDF artillery, MLRS and aircraft are thought to have delivered thousands of cluster bombs, containing a total of some 4 million bomblets during the war."
Human Rights Watch said there was evidence that Israel had used cluster bombs very close to civilian areas and described them as "unacceptably inaccurate and unreliable weapons when used around civilians" and that "they should never be used in populated areas." Human Rights Watch has accused Israel of using cluster munitions in an attack on Bilda, a Lebanese village, on 19 July which killed 1 civilian and injured 12, including seven children. The Israeli "army defended ... the use of cluster munitions in its offensive with Lebanon, saying that using such munitions was 'legal under international law' and the army employed them 'in accordance with international standards.'" Foreign Ministry Spokesman Mark Regev added, "[I]f NATO countries stock these weapons and have used them in recent conflicts — in Yugoslavia, Afghanistan and Iraq — the world has no reason to point a finger at Israel."

Note that final dismal comment by a Keith clone there.