BS: Unarmed soldier killed, (London-May 2013)

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Jun 13 - 12:25 AM

Actually, Susan, a mudcat is a kind of fish.

'Catfish native to the Mississippi Delta's "muddy waters," especially the yellow bullhead' - wikipedia

Hence the name of this forum, whence our name for ourselves, Mudcatters.

Best

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 02 Jun 13 - 12:16 AM

Oh, I forgot to tell you that Grampa said the upside down cross was okay because Episcopalians are not superstitious. My grandfather was a good Christian because he lived as a Christian. He didn't go in for any hocus-pocus. Or any hypocrisy. We had pipes at his funeral.

And he loved cats. We had a lot of cats. That's why I know there's no such thing as a mudcat. Cats are very clean. They clean themselves actually. And they're very cute doing it.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 11:54 PM

Of course I've heard of the Vatican, you patronising booby, Greg. It has no legislative powers as a "state" beyond the parking arrangements in St Peter's Square. I'd like to see what would happen if its town council or whatever the hell they call it tried to introduce capital punishment for speeding along Via Aurelia!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 11:53 PM

Wow! Go babysit my grandson, come back and were all so smug :-) Et tu Keith? That's fine. You seem confused. You want my kid gloves? Here you take 'em.

Having donkey ears means you don't listen. It has nothing to do with your appearance. It's like this little folk tale from Guyana about the town crier:

"When he knock and shout, some shiver because dem didn't like what dem hear. Dem got some who love to talk and talk but don't listen. Dem like donkey. Dem ears long but don't hear dem own story."

Do you even know what obtuse means? It means lacking in quickness of perception or intellect. I am hardly that - but you might be. If you're not wearing a hijab then you're married to a token Muslim. That's fine. We got token everything out here. I myself am a token Episcopalian in honor of my grandfather.

I remember when I first went into Grampa's church. Having been brought up Catholic, I was horrified by an enormous inverted cross. But I later found out it was there because our church had been named for St. Peter and St. Peter had been crucified upside down at his own request. Oy, what a meshuggener. Like it's not bad enough right side up?   Gra

And I hate to disappoint y'all but there ain't no such thing as a "mudcatter" 'cept in yo head.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 10:00 PM

MtheM said "That will be a great comfort to Mrs Rigby" or words to that effect, in response to a suggestion that the muslim community is not seen as a security threat. It's a pity he didn't read the Rigby family's comments before exploiting Mrs Rigby for his own purpose. It's fairly clear that the Rigbys themselves do not see the muslim community as a threat.

Thread drift: It is a sectarian religious war that has already spread to Iraq and beginning in Lebanon.

That's way too glib, Keith. It has become sectarian, as is often the case with insurrections (cf the relatively mini-commotion in Northern Ireland). But it started as a protest against brutal governance, the protesters believing for some reason that western-style democracy might work in Syria. They forgot that before Bashar Al Asad and his dad Hafez, Syria was virtually ungovernable, with a coups almost yearly.

But for all its manifest sins, the Asad dynasty (part of the Allawi sect, which only in recent times got attached to the fringes of Shia Islam) has stuck to a broadly sectarian line. In fact the Asads have governed rather like Saddam in Iraq, but a good bit more brutally. And as with Iraq, it was madness to think that taking on the regime would make things better. Apart from anything else, militant Shia fundamentalists glimpse the possibility of an Islamic state emerging from the vacuum, and Sunni wealth in Qatar and elsewhere has rushed to bankroll the rebels in support of Syria's Sunni majority. In short, it's a Holy mess into which the UK government is itching to pour more weaponry.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 07:17 PM

Jim, thank you so much for your kindly concern. You didn't alarm me by your accounts, I just feel that London may be a little unsafe for my husband at the moment. It was so nice of you to try to PM me, and I appreciate your consideration. And thank you too Keith for your comment. It's good to know I am welcome here on Mudcat. Kindest regards to all! Eliza.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 05:55 PM

Roman Catholicism is not a legislative jurisdiction in that sense

Ever hear of The Vatican?

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 05:35 PM

Roman Catholicism is not a legislative jurisdiction in that sense, Greg F. & death of the soul due to excommunication is not the sort of physical death I wrote about, & well you know it. Don't pretend to be more stupid & awkward than you are; it is entirely otiose.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 05:26 PM

"Now point our any country or society in the world..."
So we have to put the blame for the death of a soldier on the people who have chosen to leave their countries of origin and live in Britain - do I have that right?
.,,.
No, of course you don't. A complete irrelevance & I can't see how you could possibly have interpreted what I wrote to mean any such thing.

My point was that, altho the holy book of Xtnty does indeed contain certain injunctions to war against the outsider &c, they were way back then, not now. The injunctions of Xtn holy writ are not followed now to the extent of the execution of apostates anywhere in the whole world [my challenge to you was to name one place where they were ~~ which you can't becoz there are none]; whereas in places where Sharia obtains, apostasy or conversion to another religion is a capital offence, often imposed ~~ in Saudi, N Nigeria &c. Which is where your implied comparison by invocation of some of the more truculent bits of Leviticus is going to fall down.

But, I wonder again why I bother, since it is J Carroll that I am addressing; who always knows best so never listens...

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 05:01 PM

as I haven't the faintest idea what you're talking about.

Not to worry, Eliza. Apparently nor does she.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 04:59 PM

& conversion to another faith is a capital offence. Or any sort of legal offence for that matter.

Roman Catholocisism. Ever heard of excommunication & the Death of the Soul?

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 04:33 PM

Lepak, Eliza is a much loved, respected and honest Mudcatter.

Take back your insults and/or fuck off.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 04:25 PM

"Eliza" does Joe Offer know you?

Jim, you are worthy of the Marxist crazies that overthrew the Tsar for Stalin!

Btw, Steve Gardham should have warned me about what an asshole you are, but I forgive him.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 04:09 PM

Eliza
Tried to PM you, hadn't noticed you were a guest.
Can I apologise if I have alarmed you in any way with my descriptions of racism - it was certainly not my intention.
I lived in London for thirty years and witnessed a great deal of racism - but can I stress that it was all passively verbal and non-threatening - in my opinion, very much a part of the hangover of Empire conditioning.
At no time did I witness racist violence, though I was aware that it took place, usually orchestrated in advance by the sewer-rat politicos.
I never found London a particularly friendly place, nor did I find it a violent one, just a large somewhat amorphous English city.
If I have upset you in any way, my apologies.
Best wishes to you and your husband,
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 03:54 PM

SJ Lepak, I am indeed that Eliza who said exactly that. But 'hijab'?? 'donkey's ears'?? I'm sure the other members of the PCC of St Margaret's church would be amazed if I arrived at our committee meetings in a hijab. And the last time I looked in a mirror, my ears appeared to be quite normal. If you have a valid point to make regarding my posts, it would be better if you were a little less obtuse, as so far, you're not making a great deal of sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 03:46 PM

Eliza
"I'm worried for him."
I sincerely hope without cause.
"Now point our any country or society in the world..."
So we have to put the blame for the death of a soldier on the people who have chosen to leave their countries of origin and live in Britain - do I have that right?
I hold no brief whatever for any religion, and am alarmed when they get a foothold in any society - I get tired of repeating that I believe religion - any religion and politics is a toxic mix.
Historically, when any religion weilds political power it invariably abuses it - from Inquisition Spain, Henry VIII's and Cromwell's England right through to 20th century "Holy Ireland" with its Magdalene Laundries and clerical abuses (not to mention 21st century Vatican continuing cover-up of those abuses)
In Ireland at present we are in the middle of a "to terminate or not to terminate a non-viable pregnancy" battle, following the death of a young woman who was refused one - I believe a similar dispute is taking place in El Salvador (?) too..   
I am in no way comparing Christianity with Islam, favourably or otherwise, I'm simply pointing out that we can all throw about examples of violent and inhuman demands from our holy books.
I hope, though certainly will not live long enough to see the time all religion becomes a matter of personal choice and not something imposed on human beings from birth by a self-appointed guardian of our souls".
"it is MORE NOT LESS now"
THEN PRODUCE SOME GENUINE FIGURES TO BACK UP YOUR CLAIM INSTEAD OF MAKING THEM UP TO SUIT YOUR BIGOTRY
I suggest that anybody left with any genuine interest in this subject
other than to use the body of a dead soldier as an Islamophobic soapbox, read through the reasoned, friendly and humanely sympathetic postings at the beginning of this thread, before Keith and his merry Klavern of Klansmen hijacked it - as has happened over and over and over...... again on this forum.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 03:24 PM

Oh sorry. I thought you were the Eliza who said this:

Tragic and horrifying. My husband is a black Muslim, and I'm worried that all law-abiding Muslims might be ostracised for this barbaric act.It is indeed almost incredible that such a thing could take place in Britain in 2013, so I see nothing wrong with the thread title. This time last year, our country was so proud about the Jubilee and our preparations for the Olympics. Visitors of all races and creeds were welcomed and mixed together happily. This event has cast a dreadful cloud over London. So sorry for the young man's family. What a totally needless death.

Btw, I know what you're hiding under the hijab- donkey ears! We have people up in Boston here that are going to live their lives without arms and legs! The average person has nothing to say about what government does. We try but they swindle us. So don't bring it around here.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 03:01 PM

I'm glad SJ Lepak that you have nothing to say to me, as I haven't the faintest idea what you're talking about.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 02:27 PM

What a bunch of dumb asses you are! When you are killed in Judaism it only means that you are no longer recognized! You no longer belong, you are cast out! You don't actually die in the literal sense. You're just not a Jew anymore. Don't shrug it off however because it's a serious matter. Your parents sit shiva for you as if you'd died. You're dead. Non-Jews do this also except they don't name it. The vast majority don't ritualize it.

Now for religious Jews, this could breaking with tradition. For secular Jews, this will be acting in a manner that threatens the welfare of civilized,, hardworking, even gentle people. You would have to be a soul beyond human redemption to merit that sentence of "No, we don't even care about what happens to this person."

Eliza, I have nothing to say to you. Women get a free pass when it comes to matters if the heart. Haven't you ever listened to Billy Holiday? Besides, I've never quite gotten over
Cat Stevens. Guess he gets a free pass too:

Peace Train 

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 02:24 PM

Don, if the survey was not done properly and by a reputable firm, BBC would not publicise its findings.
Don, Global Militant Islam is doing very well.
To suggest otherwise is to entertain us all again with your profound ignorance.

Jim, however many they had on their watch list 6 years ago, it is MORE NOT LESS now.
They put more resources into it posts 7/7, and have foiled an attempt at mass murder at least once every year since, and some years several.
You were wrong to challenge and you now look very silly indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 01:55 PM

"I suggest you look up the long list (and there's many more) of passages in the Christian Bible calling for death to the unbeliever." you say to Susan, Jim. Sure enuff. Now point our any country or society in the world where apostasy from Xtianity & conversion to another faith is a capital offence. Or any sort of legal offence for that matter.

Go on.

Just one.

Oh, why do I bother?   Jim's watchword, as everybody knows, is "My mind is made up. Please do not confuse me with facts." Susan, take note.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 01:52 PM

""And, 170 000 is about 7% of 2.5 million. The survey quoted by BBC said 7% of British Muslims "admired" Al Qaeda.""

The survey of British Muslims:

1. How many polled?
2. What demographics were included?
3. What precise questions were put to them?

You are clutching at straws even more than usual, given that admiring Al Qaeda doesn't equate to joining, or even supporting it, and you don't even have a clue as to what it is about Al Qaeda they admire.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 01:43 PM

""Complete shite, as is your ludicrous contention that global Islamism is an Islamophobic fantasy.
Would that it were.""

Well old son, if 2000 persons of interest, who MI5 think may be potential trouble or may not, represent the UK branch of worldwide militant Islamism, it looks as though militant Islamism is in a bit of trouble of its own.

Short staffed, as you might say.

Hmmmmm?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 01:24 PM

Some very interesting accounts, Jim, and very disturbing. As you know, my husband is black (first reason for him to be wary) Muslim (second reason) and an immigrant (third). As I said, in our little village he's well known and much liked. He helps in our local church and in the community generally (eg painting the village hall, erecting our huge marquee for village events and being trained as projectionist for a future village hall cinema, to name but a few.) But he and I both realise that this happy state of affairs may not pertain elsewhere in the UK. Not so long ago, he went on a coach trip to Manchester to see Man U's football ground etc. I was worried, and told him to stay close to the other passengers. Luckily he didn't come to any harm. But now he says he'd like to visit London again this time on his own, as I'm not too well and can't travel far at the moment. He even says (and why shouldn't he?) that he'd like to visit one of the big mosques there and worship with 'his brothers'. He's so trusting and innocent and has been 'spoiled' in our Norfolk village. I just pray he'll be alright. People are understandably so incensed at this wicked act of murder, and my husband could easily be targeted coming out of the mosque. He even resembles one of the killers, I'm worried for him.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 01:23 PM

Thanks for the definition Bobad. Now, can you show any evidence that it applies, if you can put your Islamophobia aside for as long as it takes to do so?

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 01:22 PM

So SJ - whan are you going to peruse the Old Testament and extract similar examples and post them? Plenty in there as well. Or do you just want to ignore them?

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 12:59 PM

Sorry Susan - missed a bit
"Bet if I posted a thread about that you'd be nowhere in sight."
I have no sympathy whatever with how Muslim culture treats women, homosexuals, thieves...... I find it absolutely appalling, but I do not see any of that as a reason to persecute, scapegoat and terrorise ordinary Muslim men women and children for a brutal murder they had no part whatever in.
I see no protest on your part regarding the mosque burnings, huge demonstrations demanding an end to immigration and calls to send immigrants "back to where they came from", and ongoing year-by-year terrorising by right-wing thugs who have made their lives unbearable and dangerous just because they are "different".
A few first hand accounts here
http://www.socialistreview.org.uk/article.php?articlenumber=11405
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: bobad
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 12:56 PM

False equivalence is a logical fallacy which describes a situation where there is a logical and apparent equivalence, but when in fact there is none. It would be the antonym of the mathematical concept of material equivalence. It is achieved by "shifting, imprecise, or tactical (re)definition of a linking term. A common way for this fallacy to be perpetuated is one shared trait between two subjects is assumed to show equivalence, especially in order of magnitude, when equivalence is not necessarily the logical result.

Wikipedia

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 12:40 PM

Keith,
Your cutting is sis years old (September 2006)- unless the police have arrested and spirited away the thousands they were watching in the intervening period (perhaps to the Guantanamo Bay concentration camp lookalike the Brits have set up in Afghanistan), or waiting until they have a few thousand cells free to house them, it appears they were guilty of nothing more than being suspected by the police - thank you for making my point for me.
Susan,
Re your list from the Koran - we really have been there and done that.
I suggest you look up the long list (and there's many more) of passages in the Christian Bible calling for death to the unbeliever.
http://www.evilbible.com/Murder.htm
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 12:28 PM

What? Nothing to say? Jim? Don? Greg F.?

Here's more of what you defend:

Tabari IX:69 "Arabs are the most noble people in lineage, the most prominent, and the best in deeds. We were the first to respond to the call of the Prophet. We are Allah's helpers and the viziers of His Messenger. We fight people until they believe in Allah. He who believes in Allah and His Messenger has protected his life and possessions from us. As for one who disbelieves, we will fight him forever in the Cause of Allah. Killing him is a small matter to us." 
Qur'an:48:16 "Say (Muhammad) to the wandering desert Arabs who lagged behind: 'You shall be invited to fight against a people given to war with mighty prowess. You shall fight them until they surrender and submit. If you obey, Allah will grant you a reward, but if you turn back, as you did before, He will punish you with a grievous torture."
Qur'an:48:22 "If the unbelieving infidels fight against you, they will retreat. (Such has been) the practice (approved) of Allah in the past: no change will you find in the ways of Allah." 
Qur'an:47:4 "When you clash with the unbelieving Infidels in battle (fighting Jihad in Allah's Cause), smite their necks until you overpower them, killing and wounding many of them. At length, when you have thoroughly subdued them, bind them firmly, making (them) captives. Thereafter either generosity or ransom (them based upon what benefits Islam) until the war lays down its burdens. Thus are you commanded by Allah to continue carrying out Jihad against the unbelieving infidels until they submit to Islam." 
Qur'an:47:31 "And We shall try you until We know those among you who are the fighters." 
Tabari VI:138 "Those present at the oath of Aqabah had sworn an allegiance to Muhammad. It was a pledge of war against all men. Allah had permitted fighting." 
Tabari VI:139 "Allah had given his Messenger permission to fight by revealing the verse 'And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah.'" 
Qur'an:9:19 "Do you make the giving of drink to pilgrims, or the maintenance of the Mosque, equal to those who fight in the Cause of Allah? They are not comparable in the sight of Allah. Those who believe, and left their homes, striving with might, fighting in Allah's Cause with their goods and their lives, have the highest rank in the sight of Allah." 
Ishaq:550 "The Muslims met them with their swords. They cut through many arms and skulls. Only confused cries and groans could be heard over our battle roars and snarling." 
Qur'an:5:94 "Believers, Allah will make a test for you in the form of a little game in which you reach out for your lances. Any who fails this test will have a grievous punishment." 
Ishaq:578 "Crushing the heads of the infidels and splitting their skulls with sharp swords, we continually thrust and cut at the enemy. Blood gushed from their deep wounds as the battle wore them down. We conquered bearing the Prophet's fluttering war banner. Our cavalry was submerged in rising dust, and our spears quivered, but by us the Prophet gained victory." 
Tabari IX:22 "The Prophet continued to besiege the town, fighting them bitterly." 
Tabari IX:25 "By Allah, I did not come to fight for nothing. I wanted a victory over Ta'if so that I might obtain a slave girl from them and make her pregnant." 
Tabari IX:82 "The Messenger sent Khalid with an army of 400 to Harith [a South Arabian tribe] and ordered him to invite them to Islam for three days before he fought them. If they were to respond and submit, he was to teach them the Book of Allah, the Sunnah of His Prophet, and the requirements of Islam. If they should decline, then he was to fight them." 
Tabari IX:88 "Abdallah Azdi came to the Messenger, embraced Islam, and became a good Muslim. Allah's Apostle invested Azdi with the authority over those who had surrendered and ordered him to fight the infidels from the tribes of Yemen. Azdi left with an army by the Messenger's command. The Muslims besieged them for a month. Then they withdrew, setting a trap. When the Yemenites went in pursuit, Azdi was able to inflict a heavy loss on them." 
Ishaq:530 "Get out of his way, you infidel unbelievers. Every good thing goes with the Apostle. Lord, I believe in his word. We will fight you about its interpretations as we have fought you about its revelation with strokes that will remove heads from shoulders and make enemies of friends." 
Muslim:C9B1N29 "Command For Fighting Against People So Long As They Do Not Profess That There Is No Ilah (God) But Allah And Muhammad Is His Messenger: When the Messenger breathed his last and Bakr was appointed Caliph, many Arabs chose to become apostates [rejected Islam]. Abu Bakr said: 'I will definitely fight against anyone who stops paying the Zakat tax, for it is an obligation. I will fight against them even to secure the cord used for hobbling the feet of a camel which they used to pay if they withhold it now.' Allah had justified fighting against those who refused to pay Zakat."
Muslim:C9B1N33 "The Prophet said: 'I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and they establish prostration prayer, and pay Zakat. If they do it, their blood and property are protected.'" 
Muslim:C10B1N176 "Muhammad (may peace be upon him) sent us in a raiding party. We raided Huraqat in the morning. I caught hold of a man and he said: 'There is no god but Allah,' but I attacked him with a spear anyway. It once occurred to me that I should ask the Apostle about this. The Messenger said: 'Did he profess "There is no god but Allah," and even then you killed him?' I said: 'He made a profession out of the fear of the weapon I was threatening him with.' The Prophet said: 'Did you tear out his heart in order to find out whether it had professed truly or not?'" 
Muslim:C20B1N4597 "The Prophet said at the conquest of Mecca: 'There is no migration now, but only Jihad, fighting for the Cause of Islam. When you are asked to set out on a Jihad expedition, you should readily do so.'" 
Muslim:C28B20N4628 "Allah has undertaken to provide for one who leaves his home to fight for His Cause and to affirm the truth of His word; Allah will either admit him to Paradise or will bring him back home with his reward and booty." 
Muslim:C28B20N4629 "The Messenger said: 'One who is wounded in the Way of Allah—and Allah knows best who is wounded in His Way—will appear on the Day of Judgment with his wound still bleeding. The color (of its discharge) will be blood, (but) its smell will be musk.'" 
Muslim:C34B20N4652-3 "The Merit Of Jihad And Of Keeping Vigilance Over The Enemy: A man came to the Holy Prophet and said: 'Who is the best of men?' He replied: 'A man who fights staking his life and spending his wealth in Allah's Cause.'" 
Muslim:C42B20N4684 "A desert Arab came to the Prophet and said: 'Messenger, one man fights for the spoils of war; another fights that he may be remembered, and one fights that he may see his (high) position (achieved as a result of his valor in fighting). Which of these is fighting in the Cause of Allah?' The Messenger of Allah said: 'Who fights so that the word of Allah is exalted is fighting in the Way of Allah.'" 
Muslim:C53B20N4717 "The Prophet said: 'This religion will continue to exist, and a group of people from the Muslims will continue to fight for its protection until the Hour is established.'" 
Bukhari:V5B59N288 "I witnessed a scene that was dearer to me than anything I had ever seen. Aswad came to the Prophet while Muhammad was urging the Muslims to fight the pagans. He said, 'We shall fight on your right and on your left and in front of you and behind you.' I saw the face of the Prophet getting bright with happiness, for that saying delighted him." 
Bukhari:V5B59N290 "The believers who did not join the Ghazwa [Islamic raid or invasion] and those who fought are not equal in reward." 
Qur'an:2:193 "Fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief) and religion is only for Allah. But if they cease/desist, let there be no hostility except against infidel disbelievers." 
Qur'an:2:217 "They question you concerning fighting in the sacred month. Say: 'Fighting therein is a grave (matter); but to prevent access to Allah, to deny Him, to prevent access to the Sacred Mosque, to expel its members, and polytheism are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they make you renegades from your religion. If any of you turn back and die in unbelief, your works will be lost and you will go to Hell. Surely those who believe and leave their homes to fight in Allah's Cause have the hope of Allah's mercy."
Qur'an:2:244 "Fight in Allah's Cause, and know that Allah hears and knows all."

Had enough? Because I've had enough of your BS threads! These people are not victims. They are your self-professed enemies. I am not telling you to hurt them but if defend them you are fools. They will do to you what they did to Drummer Rigby if given half a chance. And if you people start anymore of these BS threads, I'll be back with every one of these hateful passages! Remember, it's not me who came up with them. Try bothering to educate yourselves before you start defending haters. Think about your own defense because you're going to need to.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 09:04 AM

Ah, what the hell? Why not post a few more?:

Ishaq:326 "Prophet exhort the believers to fight. If there are twenty good fighters they will defeat two hundred for they are a senseless people. They do not fight with good intentions nor for truth." 
Bukhari:V4B52N63 "A man whose face was covered with an iron mask came to the Prophet and said, 'Allah's Apostle! Shall I fight or embrace Islam first?' The Prophet said, 'Embrace Islam first and then fight.' So he embraced Islam, and was martyred. Allah's Apostle said, 'A Little work, but a great reward.'" 
Bukhari:V4B53N386 "Our Prophet, the Messenger of our Lord, ordered us to fight you till you worship Allah alone or pay us the Jizyah tribute tax in submission. Our Prophet has informed us that our Lord says: 'Whoever amongst us is killed as a martyr shall go to Paradise to lead such a luxurious life as he has never seen, and whoever survives shall become your master.'" 
Muslim:C34B20N4668 "The Messenger said: 'Anybody who equips a warrior going to fight in the Way of Allah is like one who actually fights. And anybody who looks after his family in his absence is also like one who actually fights." 
Qur'an:9:38 "Believers, what is the matter with you, that when you are asked to go forth and fight in Allah's Cause you cling to the earth? Do you prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? Unless you go forth, He will afflict and punish you with a painful doom, and put others in your place"
Qur'an:9:123 "Fight the unbelievers around you, and let them find harshness in you." 
Qur'an:8:72 "Those who accepted Islam and left their homes to fight in Allah's Cause with their possessions and persons, and those who gave (them) asylum, aid, and shelter, those who harbored them—these are allies of one another. You are not responsible for protecting those who embraced Islam but did not leave their homes [to fight] until they do so." [Another translation reads:] "You are only called to protect Muslims who fight." 
Muslim:C9B1N31 "I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify to the fact that there is no god but Allah, and believe in me (that) I am the Messenger and in all that I have brought." 
Bukhari:V9B84N59 "Whoever says this will save his property and life from me.'" 
Qur'an:8:73 "The unbelieving infidels are allies. Unless you (Muslims) aid each other (fighting as one united block to make Allah's religion victorious), there will be confusion and mischief. Those who accepted Islam, left their homes to fight in Allah's Cause (al-Jihad), as well as those who give them asylum, shelter, and aid—these are (all) Believers: for them is pardon and bountiful provision (in Paradise)." 

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 08:42 AM

And here are some quotes from the Koran and other authoritative sources that back up what I have been saying:

Qur'an:9:88 "The Messenger and those who believe with him, strive hard and fight with their wealth and lives in Allah's Cause." 
Qur'an:9:5 "Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war." 
Qur'an:9:112 "The Believers fight in Allah's Cause, they slay and are slain, kill and are killed." 
Qur'an:9:29 "Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission." 
Ishaq:325 "Muslims, fight in Allah's Cause. Stand firm and you will prosper. Help the Prophet, obey him, give him your allegiance, and your religion will be victorious." 
Qur'an:8:39 "Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah." 
Qur'an:8:39 "So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world)." 
Ishaq:324 "He said, 'Fight them so that there is no more rebellion, and religion, all of it, is for Allah only. Allah must have no rivals.'" 
Qur'an:9:14 "Fight them and Allah will punish them by your hands, lay them low, and cover them with shame. He will help you over them." 
Ishaq:300 "I am fighting in Allah's service. This is piety and a good deed. In Allah's war I do not fear as others should. For this fighting is righteous, true, and good." 
Ishaq:587 "Our onslaught will not be a weak faltering affair. We shall fight as long as we live. We will fight until you turn to Islam, humbly seeking refuge. We will fight not caring whom we meet. We will fight whether we destroy ancient holdings or newly gotten gains. We have mutilated every opponent. We have driven them violently before us at the command of Allah and Islam. We will fight until our religion is established. And we will plunder them, for they must suffer disgrace." 
Qur'an:8:65 "O Prophet, urge the faithful to fight. If there are twenty among you with determination they will vanquish two hundred; if there are a hundred then they will slaughter a thousand unbelievers, for the infidels are a people devoid of understanding." 

Want more? There's plenty where that came from...

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 07:41 AM

Thousands of British Muslims are being watched by police and MI5 under suspicion of possible terrorist involvement, a Scotland Yard chief has disclosed.
Peter Clarke, the head of the Metropolitan Police anti-terrorist branch, said they were being looked at in the belief that they might be involved directly or indirectly in supporting terrorism.
His estimate was given in an interview for a BBC2 documentary, al-Qa'eda: Time to Talk, which investigates British Muslim connections with the terrorist network and will to be shown tomorrow.
Mr Clarke said: "What we've learnt since 9/11 is that the threat is not something that's simply coming from overseas into the United Kingdom. What we've learnt, and what we've seen all too graphically and all too murderously, is that we have a threat which is being generated here within the United Kingdom."
When asked roughly how many Muslims were being looked at, Mr Clarke said: "I don't want to go down the numbers game, I don't think it's helpful … all I can say is that our knowledge is increasing and certainly in terms of broad description, the numbers of people who we have to be interested in, are into the thousands."http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1527844/Yard-is-watching-thousands-of-terror-suspects.html

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 07:03 AM

Jim Carroll, it's clear you are a cultural relativist and that's okay to a point, however, concern for human rights should trump cultural relativity. I notice that you are never concerned the plight of Muslim women living in such a misogynist culture. You would deny there's any problem eventhough news stories show up on a regular basis describing atrocities against women. Bet if I posted a thread about that you'd be nowhere in sight.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 05:38 AM

"The truth is plain to everyone."
If the Security Services released specified the details of the contents of their data-bases the wouldn't be very 'secure' - would they? - pratt!
As I said, easily solved - show where they have specified who is on their lists.
I really would take a peep at Stella Rimington's memoirs, 'Open Secret' - makes fascinating reading and shows us just how 'private' our private' lives are.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 04:53 AM


"Everyone knows that it refers to Islamist extremists,"
No we don't Keith, it's just that some of you would like to believe we do

When you say "we" you mean you.
You are in denial.
The truth is plain to everyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 03:46 AM

we don't have too many "facts" - just hate generated opinions.

True, Jim. But the facts we do have are disputed without any evidence and, to me, it looks like the hate generated posts are not the ones I think you are referring too.

Last post by me on this thread. No point in trying to reason with the unreasonable.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 03:29 AM

"Everyone knows that it refers to Islamist extremists,"
No we don't Keith, it's just that some of you would like to believe we do - just another example of your Islamophobic inventiveness.
I'm sure you can pull something up to prove your case, but please hurry up, none of us are as young as we were - pratt!
"I shall give up quoting any facts"
That's the problem here Dave - we don't have too many "facts" - just hate generated opinions.
I have no love of Islam or any religion; just not prepared to let it be used against people of an entire culture unchallenged.
http://www.islamophobia-watch.com/islamophobia-watch/author/islamophobia-watch
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jun 13 - 02:54 AM


Becvause in that post you chose to separate out the bands of twisted nutjobs who actually do these things and talk about the whole worldwide Muslim community as potential terrorists.

Complete shite, as is your ludicrous contention that global Islamism is an Islamophobic fantasy.
Would that it were.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 31 May 13 - 08:16 PM

""That is not Islamophobic, but a factual observation which they themselves would and do endorse.
I have stated enough times that they are in a small minority of Muslims, but you choose to ignore that.
Why Don?""

Becvause in that post you chose to separate out the bands of twisted nutjobs who actually do these things and talk about the whole worldwide Muslim community as potential terrorists.

Read your own post, which by the way is something you should make a point of doing anyway, before you hit the submit button.

You expose much more than you realise of your attitudes and prejudices.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 31 May 13 - 05:28 PM

Christianity, or even Catholicism, is not a false religion, however, it has been interpreted falsely by various "Christian" churches throughout history. For example, during the Reformation, many devout Protestants, beginning with the king, were looking to plunder churches and monasteries in the name of religious differences. Monarchs have given these kinds of orders, to kill "infidels"and to pillage religious sites. Ungodly popes have given such orders as well. But not Jesus, nor the apostles, nor the saints, nor any faithful follower of Christ. Anyone can call themselves a Christian. T'ain't necessarily so. Not only that but scores of pagan peoples were forcibly converted to Christianity, tortured and killed in the name of Christ. But let it be said, Jesus did not say to do any of this. In fact, quite the opposite.

Jews, I suppose, are also capable of what others might deem false or extreme interpretations of Judaism, however, most Jews who could be described as religious have no intention of killing and that, incidentally, means they are deadbeats in the eyes of many secular Jews living in Israel. Jews do not proselytize so if they do kill it's not going to be in the name of religion but in the name of statehood only (better known as Zionism). Even in Khazaria there was religious tolerance and diversity inclusive of Judaism, Islam and Christianity as well as Pagan beliefs.

Islam alone says it is justifiable to kill infidels. The command comes straight from the top. So if I have "Islamophobia" there's a good reason for it. Does that mean I want Muslims wiped out? No. Does that mean that I want individual Muslims to be hacked apart in the street? Hell no. Can you imagine what it must have been like to suddenly struck by a car and then set upon and hacked to death by mashugees? Can you imagine the terror he felt in his last few minutes of life. He probably died of a heart attack, poor man. This thread is supposed to be about HIM and his plight, not about the supposed plight of Muslims everywhere. What, no compassion for Lee Rigby?

And to those who are more worried about the potential backlash to Muslims everywhere than the life of Rigby and his family, your sense of justice and humanitarianism is seriously out of whack. HE is the victim here, not them. This man's death should not become merely another occasion for you to spout your pro-Muslim rhetoric.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 May 13 - 04:56 PM

OK, Jim. I agree. Your definitions are obviously more correct and, more importantly, I am stupid and don't understand what is going on in the world. I shall give up quoting any facts and listen only to dogma until such a time that I feel it necessary to commit ritual suicide by listening to Irish folk until my brain leaks out of my ears.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 May 13 - 04:27 PM

I did read them Jim.
The context is unequivocal.
I do not care that you deny it. Everyone knows that it refers to Islamist extremists, and you just make yourself even more ridiculous.

And, 170 000 is about 7% of 2.5 million. The survey quoted by BBC said 7% of British Muslims "admired" Al Qaeda.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 13 - 03:32 PM

"I am obviously suffering from non-understandable syndrome"
You obviously are suffering from something.
What is under attack here are cultural communities' beliefs which, some people are claiming, make them commit acts of terror.

Dictionary definition.
Religion (ri-Hjan, ra-) n. Abbr. rel., relig.
I.The expression man's belief in and reverence for a superhuman power or power regarded as creating or governing the universe. 2. Any personal or institutionalised system of beliefs or practices embodying this belief or reverence: the Hindu religion.
3. The spiritual or emotional attitude of one who recognises the existence of a superhuman power : - powers.
4. Any objective pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion: A collector might make a religion of his hobby.
5. The monastic way of life. 6. Archaic. Sacred rites or practices. [Middle English religioun, from Old French religion, from Latin religio (stem n gion-), bond between man and the gods, perhaps from religare, bind back : re-, back + ligare, to bind, fasten

The church has a totally different definition and I agree entirely with you about their role in clerical abuse.

Keith
I should really read your own links if I were you.
"There are believed to be at least 3,000 people on MI5's database of extremist suspects."
Nowhere does it specify who or what these "extremist suspects" are.
Those taking a leading part in the Tottenham riots will be on the list.
Left and right wing extremists involved in militant activities, such as 'White Pride' who were organising attacks on Asian communities following the underage sex trials will be on the list.
Those who organise football violence will be on the list.
Those who organise mass protest demonstrations will be on the list.
Those organising the present demonstrations after the Woolwich killing, including those suspected of the attacks on mosques will be on the list.
As I have pointed out Jonathon Evans made his main issue in his speech on terrorism the then recent upsurge in IRA activity, so they will be on the list.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/8008252/Jonathan-Evans-terrorism-speech.html
Evans also makes an issue of spying in his speech; potential spies will be on his list.
Anybody directly associating with terrorist suspects, knowingly or unknowingly will be included, as will any relatives of suspects (of any persuasion) or anybody visiting world trouble spots.
What determines "national security" is, and always has been a catch-all phrase – it included your old friend Jack Straw at one time
Nowhere in either of your links is there any indication of who or how many of this figure are Islamists, Asians, Irish...... whatever
From the beginning you have claimed this figure as referring solely to those belonging to Muslim communities – and it is this that makes you the racist bigot you are.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 May 13 - 03:03 PM

Oh, and just to backup my interpretation, look at the first website I came to when looking up 'church' -

Church
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
        Look up church in Wiktionary, the free dictionary.

Church is an English word for a Christian religious institution or building but it may refer to:

    1 Religion
    2 People
    3 Places
    4 Popular music
    5 Other uses

So I guess not everyone can separate church from religion as glibly as you can to try and prove a point.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 May 13 - 02:36 PM

"Part 1. The Catholic Church is, to me, the same as the Catholic religion"
'Tisn't I'm afraid Dave - the church is the purveyor of the religion - which is a collection of beliefs - look it up and see which of us has "lost it".

Sigh. I am obviously suffering from non-understandable syndrome (NUS - Has that been used elsewhere? :-) )

Please read that again, Jim. The Catholic church is TO ME, etc. etc. To you it is something else. I am not going to get into semantics though. Instead, let's just say we speak a different language.

Out of interest though, does this mean you have actually understood what I was very awkwardly trying to say in point 2?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 May 13 - 01:45 PM

Two British Muslims were killed this week.
In Syria, by Muslims.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 13 - 01:45 PM

"A great comfort to Mrs Rigby, we may be sure."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/31/drummer-lee-rigby-inquest-woolwich
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 May 13 - 01:43 PM

Financial Times this time Jim.
Security experts argue that MI5 and the police have records on many Islamist extremists in the UK. In 2007, Jonathan Evans, former head of MI5, said there were at least 2,000 people in the UK who "pose a direct threat to national security and public safety".
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/33d814b4-c3d3-11e2-aa5b-00144feab7de.html#axzz2UtPLvxXr

My figures were correct Jim.
You were wrong to challenge them, and now look silly.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 13 - 01:25 PM

"Part 1. The Catholic Church is, to me, the same as the Catholic religion"
'Tisn't I'm afraid Dave - the church is the purveyor of the religion - which is a collection of beliefs - look it up and see which of us has "lost it".
Jim Carroll