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New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl

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GUEST,Guest. Bob Blair 23 Nov 14 - 11:06 PM
GUEST,Guest. Bob Blair 23 Nov 14 - 11:13 PM
maeve 23 Nov 14 - 11:18 PM
Big Al Whittle 24 Nov 14 - 02:27 AM
GUEST,Fred McCormick 24 Nov 14 - 05:36 AM
GUEST,Derek Schofield 24 Nov 14 - 07:03 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Nov 14 - 07:10 AM
Les in Chorlton 24 Nov 14 - 07:16 AM
GUEST,Fred McCormick 24 Nov 14 - 07:46 AM
Big Al Whittle 24 Nov 14 - 08:04 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Nov 14 - 08:32 AM
bubblyrat 24 Nov 14 - 09:28 AM
GUEST,Hootenanny 24 Nov 14 - 10:00 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Nov 14 - 10:42 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Nov 14 - 10:46 AM
Big Al Whittle 24 Nov 14 - 10:59 AM
GUEST,Guest - Bob Blair 24 Nov 14 - 11:00 AM
GUEST,Guest - Bob Blair 24 Nov 14 - 11:12 AM
GUEST,Derek Schofield 24 Nov 14 - 11:27 AM
GUEST,Fred McCormick 24 Nov 14 - 11:31 AM
GUEST,Fred McCormick 24 Nov 14 - 11:42 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Nov 14 - 11:51 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Nov 14 - 01:16 PM
Big Al Whittle 24 Nov 14 - 04:18 PM
Big Al Whittle 24 Nov 14 - 04:24 PM
michaelr 24 Nov 14 - 08:21 PM
Big Al Whittle 24 Nov 14 - 10:48 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Nov 14 - 03:38 AM
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GUEST,Fred McCormick 25 Nov 14 - 06:19 AM
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Subject: New book - Lagacies of Ewan MacColl
From: GUEST,Guest. Bob Blair
Date: 23 Nov 14 - 11:06 PM

http://www.ashgate.com/default.aspx?page=637&calcTitle=1&title_id=10679&edition_id=11003

I'm sure this will provoke a few arguments - and trolls.

Standby Jim

Bob Blair


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Subject: RE: New book - Lagacies of Ewan MacColl
From: GUEST,Guest. Bob Blair
Date: 23 Nov 14 - 11:13 PM

Should be Legacies

Plus here's a proper link.

http://www.ashgate.com/default.aspx?page=637&calcTitle=1&title_id=10679&edition_id=11003

Bob Blair


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: maeve
Date: 23 Nov 14 - 11:18 PM

Here is your proper link transmogrified into a blue clicky. The book looks interesting. Legacies of Ewan MacColl


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 02:27 AM

looks very interesting - £58 for a book seems a bit steep to me. you can get the complete works of joyce or dickens for a quid on kindle. or shakespeare!

buy a kindle - its better value!


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 05:36 AM

That's the trouble with these Ashgates. They cost the earth and their subject matters are often discussed at such a rarified level, that the only people who can make sense of them are the people they're aimed at.

Think I'll wait until I can pick up a remaindered copy.


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 07:03 AM

Fred wrote; "the only people who can make sense of them are the people they're aimed at."
That sounds like good marketing to me Fred ... :-)
Otherwise, yes, they are amazingly expensive!
Derek


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 07:10 AM

I was told about this a couple of years ago by Peggy and she mentioned it again last week when we interviewed her.
It does sound interesting and the chapter headings make it more so.
I have to admit, I was taken aback at the price, but that seems to be the way minority interest books go nowadays
I was quite keen to get David Atkinson's 'Street Ballads in Nineteenth-Century Britain, Ireland, and North America' (270 pages) until I found the price was £70.
Looks like it might be a case of eeny - meeny - miney- mo for Christmas this year unless I can find two wealthy friends.
Then, of course, there is the public library
Best stick with Enid Blyton Al
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 07:16 AM

An essential for Manchester Central Ref then?


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 07:46 AM

Derek. No. It's a case of academics speaking to academics. Before anyone accuses me of inverted academic snobbery, let me hasten to add that I'm talking specifically about those academics who write and speak in such jargon laden terminology that only their colleagues can understand them.

That's why Ashgates are so expensive. The publishers know that they will only sell in extremely limited quantities, mostly only to university libraries.

Les. I certainly hope a copy winds up in Manchester Central library, if for no other reason than that's where MacColl did most of his early reading. However, thanks to the activities of Cameron, Clegg and co., I doubt there's a public library left in the whole of the UK which could even consider spending that sort of money on a single reference book.


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 08:04 AM

sadly the pc types have removed the Enid Blytons. unfair to people with big ears. the sort of thing you and Peggy would approve of.


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 08:32 AM

The book Depository have it at around £47, postage free
Getting warm
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: bubblyrat
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 09:28 AM


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 10:00 AM

Jim, isn't the Book Depository now part of Amazon ?

How do they manage to send it post free from Luxembourg?


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 10:42 AM

"How do they manage to send it post free from Luxembourg?"
Don't think they're part of Amazon (hope not!!)
Whenever they're ou of stock they link you to Abe
A couple of years ago we bought The Famine Atlas - a doorstep of a book which came at a considerable discount and post-free - helps when you're living on the Atlantic coast
Good, comprehensive stock and good discounts and boasts that it posts free all over the world - never let me down yet.
I have in the back of my mind that they are based in Yorkshire (still - we've all got to live somewhere, haven't we!!)
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 10:46 AM

On checking, I find they are part of Amazon - oh dear!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 10:59 AM

they save money by not paying any tax.

do you know if theres any chance of Journeyman going on Kindle, Jim?


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: GUEST,Guest - Bob Blair
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 11:00 AM

Keep taking the memory pills Jim - I told you that The Book Depository was part of Amaazon some time ago.

If you or anyone else saw it on the


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: GUEST,Guest - Bob Blair
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 11:12 AM

Sh*** pressed the submit button above by mistake. I should keep taking the tablets.

If Jim or anyone els saw it at £47 it was a bargain - should have snapped it up

the current Book depository price is £64.17, but it's cheaper on eBay at the moment.

The publisher's site says an ebook is available but I have been unable to find anyone selling the ebook so far.

Anyway your lucky the price is as low as it is :-). When I spoke to Peggy about it almost 3 years ago the publishers proposed price was over £100 . Peggy said she would have a word with someone about and that's what maybe brought the price down

Bob Blair


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 11:27 AM

According to the website, you can buy it online for £58.50 (that's for the print copy, not an ebook).

If you're an email subscriber to Ashgate, they give discounts and periodic special deals... so get on their email list!

It's not actually published till December.

Derek


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 11:31 AM

Ethical buying is a veritable hornets nest. In this case I refuse point blank to deal directly with Amazon (as distinct from Amazon Marketplace, where a lot of small traders ply their wares), because of the lousy way they treat their workers, and because they won't pay their taxes.

The Book Depository I'm not sure about. Yes, it was taken over by Amazon several years ago, but I've seen nothing to indicate TBD workers are treated in quite the same barbaric fashion as Amazon workers. Does anybody know whether TBD workers managed to retain their trade union rights and working conditions, or whether they went by the board when Amazon took over?

I should add that I haven't bought anything from TBD in God knows how long, so from my point of view, the question is somewhat academic. However, it would be handy to know in case a raving bargain ever crops up.


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 11:42 AM

Hang on. I've just realised. Irrespective of how their workers are treated, TBD is still part of Amazon's evil, underhanded tax dodging cartel. That places it well and truly off limits.

What wouldn't I give for the return of all those friendly local high street book shops. They may not have been able to pay their workers a decent wage, but I never heard of one that had a policy of sacking its staff members after six days sick leave.


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 11:51 AM

I'm still getting €65,58 (Euros) as the Book Depository price which, at current rates, abut £52
MacColl book
A bit more than I said earlier, but still not £64 - sorry about the discrepancy - will send my currency converter to bed without any supper!!
Hi Bob - send me some more pills!
Don't remember the Amazon bit - don't tell Peggy!!
Jim


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 01:16 PM

"do you know if theres any chance of Journeyman going on Kindle, Jim?"
Doubt it Al - don't get on with Kindle since I tried to turn the corner of the page down
If you decide to go for the real thing, look out for the second expanded edition - several bargain used copies on the net
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 04:18 PM

yes but then i need reading glasses, whereas with the kindle i just make the print a bit bigger. i could only get the ellman book about yeats on paper. i do like the kindle.


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 04:24 PM

its not just that though. people with arthritis in their fingers find kindles not so difficult to handle as a book. plus if you go on holiday, or in hospital you can take a few books, or with a kindle fire model - you can take an audio book. very handy for blind people.


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: michaelr
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 08:21 PM

Uh-oh -- one of the chapters is titled What Is Folk Music?

Wonder if he supported the 1954 definition...


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Nov 14 - 10:48 PM

oh Michael! for godsake no....don't lets go there.


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Nov 14 - 03:38 AM

"Wonder if he supported the 1954 definition..."
He devoted his life to the idea that folk songs proper were the artistic creations of working people and they were very different from those churned out by the music industry.
I've just been working on the long interview he gave, part of which was used for four radio programmes by Charles Parker entitled 'Vox Pop', based on the pop music industry - a brilliant analysis of the difference between pop and folk.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Nov 14 - 06:10 AM

cobblers - he never did working mens club gigs - he never got to grips with the idea the experience of making ordinary non folk people dance.

if you've never fronted a rock band - you have sod all idea of what constitutes the music of the people in the last sixty years. he was not equipped make any such any such distinction.

Ewan's achievements are manifest and awe inspiring. they don't need bullshit hyperbole. his analyses of folk music was at best questionable. in the 1960's folk music went one way, he went the other. and took a lot of misguided people with him.


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 25 Nov 14 - 06:19 AM

Al. Just for the record, MacColl did play working men's clubs, and holiday camps, as part of Theatre Workshop.

As for the idea that you have to have fronted a rock band, before you can comment on pop music, Jeezzzussss!!! Come on now. How many pop musicologists, can ever claim to have "fronted a rock band"? Answers on the back of a postage stamp please.


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 25 Nov 14 - 06:39 AM

I avoid Amazon. I try to buy books online via Waterstones .... now someone will tell me they don't pay taxes either ....
Derek


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 25 Nov 14 - 06:42 AM

Like I said, trying to be an ethical shopper is like treading through a minefield.


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Nov 14 - 06:50 AM

Fronted a rock band - what planet do you live on Al?
MacColl was born and brought up in the poverty-stricken Salford Engles based his'Condiditions of the Working Class in England' on - his father was an iron oulder (out of work mainly due to his trades union activity) and his mother did what she could to support the family, including, mainlt house and office cleaning.
He left school at 14 and began to educate himself while sheltering from the rain in the reading rooms of public libraries.
His first contact with the media wa when he was discovered by a BBC producer, busking to a cinema queue in Manchester in th 'Hungry Thirties'.
As Fred pointed out, when he and Joan Littlewood st up Theatre Workshop, they played to factory gate audiences, strike meetings, public parks... wherever working people gathered.
He left Theatre Workshop when it ceased being agit-prop and became established in London - he felt that was a betrayal.
One of his early achievements was The Radio Ballads, where he interviewed Railwaymen, roadworkers, deep-sea fishermen, boxers, miners, working-class teenagers and Travellers.
He spent much of his career as a singer collecting from working people, and helping some of us to become singers.
I spent all of my working life wiring houses, working on the docks or on building sites or in pubs, as an electrician - in the half century or so I never met a single worker who "fronted a rock band"   
You must be joking
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 25 Nov 14 - 06:50 AM

"I was told about this a couple of years ago by Peggy and she mentioned it again last week when we interviewed her."

@Jim – why were you interviewing Peggy? Was that for a book or anything? Curious to know if there's an interesting project on the boil there.


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Nov 14 - 07:32 AM

yes well he was of his period. people have been slagging off Kathleen Ferrier for nor not singing blow the winds southerly in the style of Sam Larner on another thread - so I thought I'd point out that it cuts both ways.

if you're not groovy cat like me bopping away to Leapy Lee and Herman's Hermits - you really don't know where its at, man.


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Nov 14 - 08:23 AM

"Jim – why were you interviewing Peggy?"
Pat and I are in the process of putting together two hour-long programmes on Ewan for Irish radio station Lyric FM - they have been scheduled for broadcasting in January to coincide with the 100th anniversary of his birth.
They will cover his early life and his theatre work, and include his approach to singing and songwriting; a great deal of the time (we hope) will be taken up with his work with The Critics Group.
Beacuse they are aimed at an Irish audience, some time will be taen up with his and Peggy's contact with performers such as Joe Heaney, Dominic Behan and Seamus Ennis - also his songwriting for The Travelling People, Song of A Road, and the film, The Irishmen.
Lat weekend, the producer, Paula Carroll (no relation) and I spent two glorious days recording Peggy in Oxford - to say we were gobsmacked at what we were given would be to put it mildly.
There is a biography of Peggy in its final stages and the family are putting together a 4 CD box set of Ewan's singing for Topic.
As the Festival of Fools once remarked, "It's all happening now".
"bopping away to Leapy Lee and Herman's Hermits"
Lucky old you - spent most of my life dodging those 'Little Arrows'!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Nov 14 - 10:01 AM

a hundred.....god that's depressing! oh, we're all going that way!
seems like only yesterday!


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: GUEST,Bob Blair
Date: 26 Nov 14 - 02:55 PM

The book arrived today and have spent a couple of hours or so skimming the book.

Initial feelings are that it is worth getting ........ BUT

The bibliography is good - I think need to check some items out..

The list of radio programmes is limited and not comprehensive - no mention made of the Song Carriers or Romeo and Juliet although the latter is mentioned in the text. Parsley, Sage, and. Politics???

The TV prorogramme list only has 3 items

The Vacca interviews take up too much of the book and I have reservations about them. Vacca has his own agenda and punts it from time to time.   I suppose that folk who have never heard any of Ewan's interviews will find them interesting but they need to be listened to in conjunction with other interviews that Ewan gave. As is known he sometimes varied - just as he did with his songs :-)

The Laing chapter on Ewan and the revival has serious errors for any publication that has pretences to be an academic study.

In particular there are glaring errors when he talks about the Critics Group, most of which are easily checked by any competent researcher, and let me hasten to add that as a member of the Critics Group I am in a position to know.

His (Laing's) objectivity goes out the window when he says about the Critics Group reading list -

" it seems likely that MacColl the autodidact had simply listed every book that he had consumed".

That's far, far from the truth and insulting to boot. I wonder what grounds Laing had for saying such a thing.

The Laing errors and lack of objectivity must call into question the value of any book published by an avowedly educational publisher.

To be fair however his (Laing's) chapter has some interesting material.


Moore's musical analysis of Ewan and some other trad singers is interesting an deserves longer study with the recordings he analysed in front of you.

The best bits so far are Peggy's intro and the final para of the intro although I would quibble with some of that... Now there's a surprise. :-)

Maybe more later, but the book is definitely worth having for those interested in MacColl's work.

Bob Blair


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Nov 14 - 02:13 AM

thank you Bob for your review.


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: Vic Smith
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 09:11 AM

I hope that soon I may be able to make a more informed contribution to the everlasting debates...... a review copy of Legacy of Ewan MacColl: The Last Interview has just dropped through the letter box.


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 10:31 AM

"a review copy of Legacy of Ewan MacColl: The Last Interview has just dropped through the letter box."
At the asking price, I assume it was delivered by Securicor!
Look forward to reading your opinions - who are you reviewing it for?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: Hagman
Date: 01 Dec 14 - 07:32 PM

Jim Carroll wrote about The Book Depository:

'Don't think they're part of Amazon (hope not!!)
Whenever they're out of stock they link you to Abe'

... and that's because Abe is also owned by Amazon! You can run, but you can't hide...


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 03:41 AM

" it seems likely that MacColl the autodidact had simply listed every book that he had consumed".
an auto didact is someone who is self taught, which in itself is not insulting,although I agree, when I read that statement it did not appear objective to me, my first reaction was that it was harsh upon MacColl.
could you throw any light on this one.. what was the Critics reading list?.


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 08:35 AM

when i was a kid, i used to pretend i'd read every book i'd ever heard of...

academics are people who keep up the practice - its a sort of poker game, they enjoy catching each other out at.


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 09:46 AM

I seem to remember from 'Journeyman' that Ewan considered himself an autodidact, with pride in the way that he had spent time of unemployment educating himself in Salford Public Library.

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 10:18 AM

Yes I was thinking that too remembering it from both the book and the TV documentary on him "What Did You Do in the Strike?" where he claimed to have disciplined himself to learn three new words per day.


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 02:20 PM

yes, i think being self educated is not something to be ashamed of.
I left school at fifteen, and spent my o level year, not at school but reading Conrad,Maugham, Tolstoy,Chekhov, etc in a public library.


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 02:45 PM

Yeah, me too, but in Bolton library. And Chekhov is still far and away my favourite Star Trek character.


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Dec 14 - 03:03 PM

MacColl used to end most of the Critics Group meetings by launching into a soliloquy on song, theatre, literature..... anything that arose from the night's work
It was during these he introduced me to what have turned out to be my favourite authors.
Cervantes was probably the first - he recounted how the author was captured (I think, during the Battle of Lepanto) and became a galley slave, escaped, was recaptured....... "and went on to write one of the world's finest novels"
Those evenings became life-changing.
His own favourite was 'The Good Soldier Schweik' which tells of the feeble-minded soldier whose idiocy got himself drafted into the army during W.W.1 (for commenting that the flies in the local bar had shit on the portrait of The Kaiser). - that same idiocy kept him alive for the duration of the war - I'm about to embark on it for the fourth time.
Another one he introduced me to was the trilogy 'The Scots Quair' - magic.
I was quite proud when I was able to return the complement and managed to introduce him to the novels of Victor Serge - he strongly disapproved of Anarchist Serge's politics, but he took to them like a duck to water.
"academics are people who keep up the practice"
I'll think you'll find that academics read books Al - their various callings make it compulsory.
What you seen to be describing are middle-class pseuds who collect books but tend not to read them
For a while I had a number of extremely wealthy customers in London, in Knightsbridge, Kensington and Chelsea.
It used to amuse me to brows through their libraries of first editions enviously then nip off to work upstairs in the bedrooms to inevitable find Jeffry Archer at one side of the bed and Barbara Taylor Bradford at the other.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: New book - Legacies of Ewan MacColl
From: Thomas Stern
Date: 18 Dec 14 - 05:31 PM

from Peggy Seeger's newsletter:

Item: A new book about Ewan MacColl, highly readable, has just come out. Legacies of Ewan MacColl, The Last Interviews, edited by Giovanni Vacca and Allan F. Moore. Unfortunately it costs £65 (£58.50 on the website) but there are plans to bring it out in about 12 months at a better price (ca. £18). It is a wonderful book - Ewan speaks for himself for most of the book. The direct link to the webpage is http://www.ashgate.com/isbn/9781409424307

Thomas.


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