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Peggy Seeger biography 2017

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Thomas Stern 23 Feb 17 - 07:33 PM
Thomas Stern 23 Feb 17 - 07:50 PM
Elmore 24 Feb 17 - 04:07 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Feb 17 - 07:24 PM
GUEST,Guest Rabee 25 Feb 17 - 05:38 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Feb 17 - 06:50 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Feb 17 - 06:52 AM
Thomas Stern 25 Feb 17 - 01:31 PM
GUEST 26 Feb 17 - 03:33 AM
GUEST,Guest - Rabee 26 Feb 17 - 07:08 AM
GUEST,Guest 27 Feb 17 - 03:52 AM
Big Al Whittle 27 Feb 17 - 07:07 AM
Thomas Stern 08 Sep 17 - 05:38 PM
Deckman 09 Sep 17 - 12:53 AM
Thomas Stern 13 Oct 17 - 04:44 PM
GUEST,Peter Laban 14 Oct 17 - 02:15 AM
Vic Smith 31 Dec 17 - 03:25 PM
rich-joy 31 Dec 17 - 08:39 PM
Vic Smith 01 Jan 18 - 07:18 AM
GUEST,akenaton 01 Jan 18 - 07:33 AM
GUEST 01 Jan 18 - 07:39 AM
Vic Smith 01 Jan 18 - 07:57 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Jan 18 - 08:32 AM
GUEST 01 Jan 18 - 08:33 AM
GUEST 01 Jan 18 - 08:44 AM
GUEST 01 Jan 18 - 08:46 AM
GUEST,akenaton 01 Jan 18 - 09:09 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Jan 18 - 09:31 AM
Vic Smith 01 Jan 18 - 10:02 AM
GUEST,akenaton 01 Jan 18 - 10:45 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Jan 18 - 11:07 AM
Vic Smith 01 Jan 18 - 11:19 AM
GUEST 01 Jan 18 - 12:01 PM
GUEST,akenaton 01 Jan 18 - 12:05 PM
GUEST,keberoxu 01 Jan 18 - 12:51 PM
The Sandman 01 Jan 18 - 01:10 PM
GUEST,akenaton 01 Jan 18 - 03:52 PM
The Sandman 01 Jan 18 - 05:14 PM
GUEST 02 Jan 18 - 05:41 AM
GUEST 02 Jan 18 - 06:08 AM
GUEST,akenaton 02 Jan 18 - 06:11 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Jan 18 - 06:35 AM
Vic Smith 02 Jan 18 - 06:38 AM
Vic Smith 02 Jan 18 - 06:40 AM
Vic Smith 02 Jan 18 - 06:43 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Jan 18 - 07:10 AM
The Sandman 02 Jan 18 - 07:30 AM
GUEST,akeaton 02 Jan 18 - 07:53 AM
gillymor 02 Jan 18 - 10:11 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Jan 18 - 11:47 AM
The Sandman 02 Jan 18 - 11:53 AM
GUEST,akenaton 02 Jan 18 - 12:15 PM
GUEST 02 Jan 18 - 12:16 PM
gillymor 02 Jan 18 - 12:18 PM
Jim Carroll 02 Jan 18 - 12:56 PM
The Sandman 02 Jan 18 - 03:39 PM
Jeri 02 Jan 18 - 04:04 PM
GUEST,Hootenanny 02 Jan 18 - 04:07 PM
StephenH 02 Jan 18 - 04:18 PM
Vic Smith 07 Jan 18 - 12:12 PM
Jim Carroll 07 Jan 18 - 12:20 PM
Jim Carroll 07 Jan 18 - 01:00 PM
GUEST,keberoxu 07 Jan 18 - 01:32 PM
The Sandman 07 Jan 18 - 04:09 PM
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GUEST,Hootenanny 08 Jan 18 - 12:14 PM
GUEST,bob a.f. 08 Jan 18 - 12:18 PM
Jim Carroll 08 Jan 18 - 12:54 PM
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GUEST,Hootenanny 09 Jan 18 - 06:48 AM
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Jim Carroll 15 Jan 18 - 03:29 AM
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Subject: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: Thomas Stern
Date: 23 Feb 17 - 07:33 PM

from University of Illinois Press:

Peggy Seeger biography


Peggy Seeger
A Life of Music, Love, and Politics
The first full-length biography of the music legend
Born into folk music's first family, Peggy Seeger has blazed her own trail artistically and personally. Jean Freedman draws on a wealth of research and conversations with Seeger to tell the life story of one of music's most charismatic performers and tireless advocates.
Here is the story of Seeger's multifaceted career, from her youth to her pivotal role in the American and British folk revivals, from her instrumental virtuosity to her tireless work on behalf of environmental and feminist causes, from wry reflections on the U.K. folk scene to decades as a songwriter. Freedman also delves into Seeger's fruitful partnership with Ewan MacColl and a multitude of contributions which include creating the renowned Festivals of Fools, founding Blackthorne Records, masterminding the legendary Radio Ballads documentaries, and mentoring performers in the often-fraught atmosphere of The Critics Group.
Bracingly candid and as passionate as its subject, Peggy Seeger is the first book-length biography of a life set to music.
"An elaborately detailed investigation of Seeger's enduring musical legacy."--Booklist

"Freedman illuminates Seeger's life and career, creating a powerful, in-depth portrait of the woman, artist, activist, and champion of the folk music genre. . . . A must."--Library Journal
"Peggy Seeger has lived her life at the sharp end of folk music. Jean Freedman tells the story of this free-spirited artist and agitator."--Billy Bragg

"Freedman, a professional folklorist, is the perfect biographer for the incomparable Peggy Seeger. She skillfully weaves together insights from the many interviews she conducted with family, friends, and Peggy herself, with her own expert observations about the musical gifts and accomplishments of the folk music icon. Those of us for whom Peggy Seeger and Ewan MacColl were living legends will especially savor this book, but everyone will be fascinated and moved by the life of a uniquely talented musician who bridged so many divides: classical and folk music, the British and American folk scenes, and her roots in one of America's great musical families to the several lives she created in the UK and the US."--Deborah Tannen, author of You Just Don't Understand and You're Wearing THAT?

"O, how I love this book! It gives me everything I wanted to know about my friend, the salty and sweet Peggy Seeger and her unique and prolific family. All the pain is there, but so are the achievements and the joys. This book goes on my shelf next to The Mayor Of Macdougal Street, and I can offer no higher praise than that." —Tom Paxton

"The greatest challenge for a biographer is to go beyond a chronology of dates and events, however detailed, and to capture fully the subject's warmth, wit, courage, character, soul, spirit. In the best biographies, those readers who know the subject will feel that she's actually in the room with them, absolutely present and political, laughing and singing—and those who have not yet met her in person will hope fervently the day comes soon when they meet her face to face, voice to voice. Jean R. Freedman has wrought a true miracle, making Peggy almost as alive on the page as she is on the stage, with all of her wonderful complexity, passion and depth. Don't just read this book—listen to it, with open ears and heart."—Si Kahn, civil rights, union and community organizer and musician

"Jean Freedman's biography stands front and center in the tradition of the Seeger family's long history of active engagement in music and musical life. Peggy Seeger's father Charles wrote about 'tradition and innovation' in modern music. Her mother, the composer Ruth Crawford, made her project to 'strike a just balance' in her folk song arrangements to reach across lines of race and class. And their daughter's transformation and reinvention of the family legacy to fuel her own prodigious gifts represent yet another stage of evolution in this remarkable family. Spanning crucial decades of change in the Anglo-American folk music revivals and renewals of creativity, Peggy Seeger's passionate involvement in music, family, and politics has been well served in Jean Freedman's excellent survey of the artist, the activist, and the woman."--Judith Tick, author of Ruth Crawford Seeger: A Composer's Search for American Music
Publication of this book is supported by grants from the Manfred Bukofzer Endowment of the American Musicological Society, funded in part by the National Endowment for the Humanities and the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation, and from the L. J. and Mary C. Skaggs Folklore Fund.

Jean R. Freedman earned a Ph.D. in folklore from Indiana University. She is the author of Whistling in the Dark: Memory and Culture in Wartime London.


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: Thomas Stern
Date: 23 Feb 17 - 07:50 PM

also note the following to be published by Faber & Faber (UK):

Faber Announces Peggy Seeger's Memoir Faber is delighted to announce that it has secured rights for
Peggy Seeger's First Time Ever: A Memoir
for publication in February 2018.
Peggy is one of folk music's most influential artists and songwriters, having spearheaded the 1960s folk revival alongside her late collaborator and partner, Ewan MacColl. As a founding member of the Critics Group, she helped nurture a generation of musicians. Her work on the BBC Radio Ballads went towards redefining documentary broadcasting. Many of her songs have become anthems for the women's movement, such as 'I'm Gonna Be an Engineer' and 'Carry Greenham Home'. And as Ewan's muse, she was the inspiration for one of the twentieth century's most popular love songs, 'The First Time Ever I Saw Your Face'. Peggy has released numerous albums, the most recent being last year's Everything Changes, which received universal critical praise, and whose 'Swim to the Star', co-written with her son Calum MacColl, won Best Original Song at the 2015 BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards. Editor Dave Watkins: 'Peggy has led, and continues to lead, an extraordinarily rich life, which she recounts in the most luminous and energised prose. Hers is a story of passion – for music, for her loves, for living – which lifts off the page. It is genuinely inspiring.' Peggy Seeger: 'At eighty-one, it's about time I wrote a memoir. Remembering who I think I was and reflecting on who I think I am has helped me forge signposts for the twenty years I think I still have. It's a chronological roller-coaster ride – up, down and diagonal. I'm dizzy with the writing of it. Come along for the trip – company always welcome.' - See more at: http://fabersocial.co.uk/2016/10/%e2%80%8bfaber-announces-peggy-seegers-memoir/#sthash.mRjYIL2l.dpuf


Thomas.


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: Elmore
Date: 24 Feb 17 - 04:07 PM

Saw Peggy in concert many times with and without Ewan. Sat next to her at a Sheila Kay Adams concert, and got to chat with her. That was a treat.


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Feb 17 - 07:24 PM

We're hoping the author doesn't forget our free copy
We put a great deal of effort into providing details for her researches.
Looking forward to reading what she used
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: GUEST,Guest Rabee
Date: 25 Feb 17 - 05:38 AM

Jim - I wish you well with your hope for a free copy.

Like you I have over the years provided stuff for various people ( including for 'this book) sometimes without even a thank you or acknowledgement. The only exception I can think of is when An Guilin re- published " Early Ballads in Ireland" and they generously sent me a copy

Most of the time I don't care - I do it for my own enjoyment and if others enjoy or perhaps even learn something from my efforts then that's a bonus. What does get up my nose however is when people take some of my work and issue commercial recordings from it. Mark you I wish them joy. Nobody's going to make a large fortune out of hardcore traditional song - not unless they start with a small fortune.

Anyway,about the book. You don! Have to wait for the Faber edition coming out in Feb 2018 ( perhaps the post above is a mistake.). The book is available now. I've just ordered my copy from The Book Depository which has it available now and Amazon UK. says IRS available from 1st March

Looking forward to what the book says about The Critics Group

BB


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Feb 17 - 06:50 AM

"Most of the time I don't care"
Me too, but I have to say, I have received numerous freebies, sometimes on the basis of casual conversations on the subject - very gratifying
"Looking forward to what the book says about The Critics Group"
Me too - with knobs on!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Feb 17 - 06:52 AM

"Guest Rabee "
Sorry, didn't realise that was the 'Twinkletoes' I know and love till I noticed the initials!!
Jim


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: Thomas Stern
Date: 25 Feb 17 - 01:31 PM

Guest Rabee: I'm confused by your post
"Anyway,about the book. You don! Have to wait for the Faber edition coming out in Feb 2018 ( perhaps the post above is a mistake.). The book is available now. I've just ordered my copy from The Book Depository which has it available now "

There are TWO books, one a biography, one a memoir.
The Biography (A Life of Music, Love, and Politics) IS available (pre-publication from various source. I assume these are review copies.)
The Memoir ("First Time Ever") does not seem to be available until the fall, prepublication listings on Amazon (US and UK).
If the memoir is listed as available, it could also be review copy
or galley proof???

Thomas.


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Feb 17 - 03:33 AM

I enjoyed my review copy and was bemused to see my review published in a number of periodicals, mainly on line, that don't usually take such material.

I was glad to see it was focussed on Peggy and her international standing as a fine musician, adept commentator and real person with real faults. (I only met her twice to date yet found myself nodding at the description of some of them.)

The biography is about her and not really about her twin shadows. She has had to live with being "another Seeger" and "Ewan MacColl's sidekick."   Whilst both aspects are covered, it is her original talent that comes over. Small beer such as arranging tunes to MacColl's words, the critics group and forthright current affairs interest get barely a mention in terms of association but how they weave into her picture is cleverly covered.

She is unique in being seen as an important piece of the American folk jigsaw and at the same time, equally an architect of the UK folk revival. In my review, my one criticism, not so much of the book but of Peggy is that she has been promoting the degree to which much of MacColl's work was purely written by her under joint credit and generally seen as his writing. Whilst this must be frustrating, saying it is as uncomfortable for listeners as Paul McCartney picking out which of the Lennon McCartney songs were sans Lennon. Technical accuracy misses the point.


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: GUEST,Guest - Rabee
Date: 26 Feb 17 - 07:08 AM

Thomas Stern %There are TWO books, one a biography, one a memoir."

Apologies - you're right. There are two books. In my dotage I became confused.

I first started correponding and providing matierial to Jean Freedman for her book some 5 years ago and, I had given up hope of seeing her book.

Glad to see both books being published. Hope I live long enoigh to read Peggy's "memoir".

Perhaps they will clear up some of the apocrypha that surround Peggy, Ewan and the Critics Group - Tho' as they say up here " I hae ma doots"

There are too many axes to grind

BB


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 27 Feb 17 - 03:52 AM

To Guest - "I enjoyed my review copy and was bemused to see my review published in a number of periodicals, mainly on line, that don't usually take such material."

Come on - Don't be shy. Give us a link to the review and periodicals involved.


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Feb 17 - 07:07 AM

i think this is really interesting.

the American connection to what was going on in England has never really been well documented, and that's why Peggy is seen as an adjunct to both scenes - rather than a seminal figure.

A various times i bought various albums from Ewan and Peggy which really influenced my guitar style. i recall in particular a red one made with Tom Paley. Also there was a brilliant one that I just about wore out made with Mike SEeger, containing Clinch Mountain backstep, On Springfield Mountain and THe Romish lady.

THere is a book that I finally got hold of, called Baby Let Me Follow You Down - mainly about east coast scene. but the connections aren't really documented in a transparent way.

i know that a lot of us in England confused the trad scene in America with the revivalist movement. For years I thought the Charles River Valley Boys were a bit like the Carter Family - rather than a gang of university kids. i think it was Martin Carthy who disabused of the notion!

I remember in an American book - a dictionary of folk music - seeing a reprint of a fan letter MIke and Peggy sent to Bill MOnroe, or was it Flatt and SCrruggs saying their favourite songs were Fod and something else. i know at the time Fod was the Springfield Mountain/Pizzen Sarpint song I was obsessed with.


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: Thomas Stern
Date: 08 Sep 17 - 05:38 PM

Peggy Seeger's memoir "FIRST TIME EVER" (Faber & Faber)
available in UK - October 5, in US - November.
In addition, a 2CD retrospective will be available.

see links on Peggy's website:
Peggy Seeger website

Cheers, Thomas.


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: Deckman
Date: 09 Sep 17 - 12:53 AM

I've just started the last chapter of this incredible book. I can't recommend it enough. I was privileged to see them both in a Seattle concert in the 70's. This accounting gave me so much more depth and understanding. bob(deckman)nelson


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: Thomas Stern
Date: 13 Oct 17 - 04:44 PM

see new Mudcat thread:
https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=162928&messages=10

Thomas.


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 14 Oct 17 - 02:15 AM

I'll re-post the link from the other thread here:

Irish Times Review


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: Vic Smith
Date: 31 Dec 17 - 03:25 PM

Not exactly hot off the press because the book seems to have been around for months but it was reviewed in the Review supplement of yesterday's The Guardian.

To be honest it is not a well written review compared with the high standards that one expects of the accounts in that section and it would appear that the writer, Sukhdev Sandhu, knows little about the writers of both the book and the song. Clearly, he is a highly regarded, well qualified reviewer though here he gives a precis of the book with a number of quotations rather than a critique, offering little insight and limiting opinion to the final short paragraph. In spite of that he gives a feel of the book which, it would seem, is a very honest, 'warts and all' account of her life with MacColl. It seems that married life was not always easy but with differences in background, nationality, age, education etc. that was surely to be expected. There was certainly enough of my interest generated by the review to make me want to read it.
Read it at https://www.theguardian.com/books/2017/dec/27/first-time-ever-by-peggy-seeger-review-a-memoir-of-folk-royalty


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: rich-joy
Date: 31 Dec 17 - 08:39 PM

I see from The Guardian's 106+ comments that it almost degenerated into the same old embittered anti-MacColl opinions and observations - I almost thought I was still here on a Mudcat thread!
Sadly, I couldn't access the Irish Times article without subscribing.

I'm looking forward to reading both books, esp having been in a group that "supported Peggy Seeger" in her Darwin concert (c.1991?), enjoyed her at Woodford festival in Qld, and seen them in concert together in Perth, WA, many many moons ago.
Love 'em or hate 'em, I feel they are both soooo important to the Folk Revival and have enriched music, theatre, and life in general .....

Wishing all a Happy, Healthy (and yes, moderately Wealthy) 2018 and beyond!

Chiz!
R-J
Down Under


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: Vic Smith
Date: 01 Jan 18 - 07:18 AM

rich-joy wrote -
I see from The Guardian's 106+ comments that it almost degenerated into the same old embittered anti-MacColl opinions and observations - I almost thought I was still here on a Mudcat thread!


Wow! These comments are quite something! Every bit as acrimonious as Mudcat on the subject of MacColl/Seeger but probably the comments are drawn from a wider based there is a richer selection of bile in them.


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 01 Jan 18 - 07:33 AM

I could never appreciate Peggy Seeger, a squawky voice and poor banjo technic.....MacColl's greatest song IMO, was murdered by Peggy Seeger.


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jan 18 - 07:39 AM

Maybe a bit hard on Peggy there....."The First Time" is definitely a man's song, full of sex and passion and is best performed by a male singer.


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: Vic Smith
Date: 01 Jan 18 - 07:57 AM

Do we take it, then, that a woman cannot give a performance that is "full of sex and passion"?


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jan 18 - 08:32 AM

It may have been written by a man, ibu in content can be applied to either sex
It is most certainly not MacColl's greatest song, nowhere near it - it lay virtually dormant in Peggy's repertoire until the Pop industry got hold of it - though many pseudo-folkies recorded it (often without bothering to seek permission).
MacColl never sang or recorded it because he said it was a song he made to express his feelings for Peggy (over the phone, as the legend has it)
Peggy told be that she never expected any of their songs to make money, but if any did, she thought it might be 'Dirty Old Town
Mnay thanks to both Peter and Vic for putting up the reviews - hadn't seen either of them
I haven't read either of the books yet - Pat has read Peggy's own, which she enjoyed, and is now half-way though Freedman's, which she said is better
Still struggling my way through Roud's depressing tome
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jan 18 - 08:33 AM

Not easy to explain Vic. Written by a male, obviously from a male view point.....there is a subtle difference in interpretation of those songs.
Although a female had a huge success with the song, that success was to my mind more about celebrity and the strength of the song, than the deeper values and nuances which we as admirers of MacColl"s work are supposed to pride ourselves on.

Do you not think that there are love songs which are better suited to male or female performers?


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jan 18 - 08:44 AM

"Not MacColl's greatest song....nowhere near it"
It rank's beside Burns "My love is like a Red Red Rose" and "Ae fond Kiss" as one of the finest love songs ever written, and both of these examples written from a man's perspective.
Peggy's version of the "First Time" certainly lacks the sexual element which comes through and is confirmed from what you say on MacColl's reasons for writing the song.


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jan 18 - 08:46 AM

Sorry, the lovely mods removed my cookie....Ake.


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 01 Jan 18 - 09:09 AM

I suppose it's about understanding women and sex. This is Good
but only MacColl himself could have done the song justice......I can just hear him singing it.


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jan 18 - 09:31 AM

"It rank's beside Burns "My love is like a Red Red Rose" and "Ae fond Kiss" "
Chacun A Son Gout? I suppose
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: Vic Smith
Date: 01 Jan 18 - 10:02 AM

2017 has not been a good year for many people and there is much in the world of politics to be unhappy about. However, in terms of English language folk song related books, it has been something of a vintage year. I have read and thoroughly enjoyed the following commentaries - all published in 2017 -

Pinery Boys: Songs & Songcatching In The Lumberjack Era - Franz Rickaby
This was originally published in 1917 but is now re-published accompanied by a well researched essay by his granddaughter. Rickaby was working at the same time as Sharp in the Appalachians and to my mind Frank's attitude to and appreciation of his informants compares favourably with Cecil's.

Roots, Radicals and Rockers - Billy Bragg
Skiffle - the way that so many of us old codgers found our way into folk music - carefully researched and skilfully written.

As I Walked Out - Martin Graebe
Meticulously researched over decades and very thoughtful analysis of the pioneering contribution of the Rev. Sabine Baring Gould. An excellent read.

Folk Song In England - Steve Roud
The game-changer! It is very unlikely that another book of such full and thorough importance on the subject will be written in my lifetime. Relying exclusively on what can be evidenced, Roud forces everyone, supporters and opponents alike, to reconsider and rethink their stance on a wide range of aspects of the subject.

Then there is this book by Peggy and Street Literature of the Long Nineteenth Century by Steve Roud & David Atkinson* which are high on my "must read" list.

I'd like to hear of any other books that I might have missed that were published last year.

* There are bound to be complaints about the price of this book. GBP 64.99 for the hardback copy is going to be beyond very many of us.


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 01 Jan 18 - 10:45 AM

"2017 has not been a good year for many people and there is much in the world of politics to be unhappy about."

Oh well, I suppose that's you safe from the Stasi for another week Vic? :0)


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jan 18 - 11:07 AM

Not sure this is the place Vic but I honestly believe if Steve Roud's FS in England is accepted uncritically it will act as an elegy for British folk song as we know it
I couldn't accept it anyway - I'm far too old to be clambering up and down steps to store our existing folk song books in the loft as they would become totally redundant.
Just been listening to a wonderful radio tribute to the work of the late folk song collector, Tom Munnelly and it's made me realise that, despite the problems with getting song to catch up with th music in Ireland at present, the Irish treat traditional our songs and singers with far more respect than they do in Britain
See you on the appropriate thread before long, I hope
Happy New Year all
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: Vic Smith
Date: 01 Jan 18 - 11:19 AM

Akenaton wrote -
"Oh well, I suppose that's you safe from the Stasi for another week Vic? :0)"


Yes, The East German Ministry for State Security has not been a threat to me for some years now! But off-topic just for a moment and knowing of your strong interest in things West African, you will be delighted to know that on our recent visit, we found The Gambia a different country from the our previous annual visits. The hated dictator Jammeh is gone and the feeling of hope and a new beginning is palpable everywhere.


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jan 18 - 12:01 PM

Just watching Chinese economic "expansion" in Ethiopia....mind shattering stuff.
As I mentioned in "another place", the New World Order is well forward in construction. We must ditch the EU fastish and make our own niche before it is too late.

Noo, about Peggy, where did she learn tae play that banjo?


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 01 Jan 18 - 12:05 PM

Bugger!! that wis me.


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: GUEST,keberoxu
Date: 01 Jan 18 - 12:51 PM

I don't know where Peggy Seeger learned to play the banjo.
She had a full blood brother and a notorious half-brother,
both of whom were always associated with playing the banjo,
so she couldn't win for losing, right?

When Ewan MacColl sang with instrumental accompaniment
in their concert tours,
(I heard them twice if memory serves)
it was she who accompanied him, often as not
on guitar rather than banjo.

And her accompaniments, especially on guitar,
were object lessons in how to do it properly:
they sounded so supportive and natural,
no matter how hard she must have worked at them,
that the general accompaniment-ignoring public
was uplifted by them without suspecting anything.

For music students like myself,
who had mentors or teachers coaching them
in how to accompany singers,
it was fascinating to hear and watch her work.


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Jan 18 - 01:10 PM

Idot think peggy seegers banjo technique is poor


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 01 Jan 18 - 03:52 PM

Cant even keep time ...nuff said.


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Jan 18 - 05:14 PM

bollocks she can keep perfect time, give examples of where she cannot keep time


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 05:41 AM

It could be that the ability to "keep time" was not as highly valued amongst traditional players of the banjo as it is amongst the more metronomic modern players. I can think of a number of 'old timer' banjo men who played in what was called 'ragged' time. I don't know enough about Peggy's playing to comment on this, but it could be that her varied timing is intentional. Certainly, Tom Paley tried to emulate older players when he was playing what he called 'crooked' tunes.


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 06:08 AM

That's interesting Guest...I had thought about it, but if it was intentional, it was a "bad career move" the accompaniment usually detracted from the overall performance, MacColl's songs were all in strict tempo and like Burns he relied on the power of the lyrics.
Peggy's accompaniment was often a distraction.


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 06:11 AM

Sorry that was Ake.


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 06:35 AM

"I don't know where Peggy Seeger learned to play the banjo. "
She never gives a single mentor, but as a youngster the house was constantly full of visiting traditional musicians
If you listen to her playing you will find a host of styles lifted from various sources.
The life in help, Libby Cotton save her lessons on the guitar
There is a banjo instructor by her published in the 1960s
If anybody is interested, we have a long lecture on accompaniment she gave in London in 1969
PM me if you are
"was not as highly valued amongst traditional players of the banjo"
WHAT!!!!!
It was basically dance music - time was its essential feature
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: Vic Smith
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 06:38 AM

02 Jan 18 - 05:41 AM was me.


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: Vic Smith
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 06:40 AM

MacColl's songs were all in strict tempo
Not to my ears, they weren't.


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: Vic Smith
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 06:43 AM

.... if you would like one example, just think of his magnificent 1968 composition, The Father's Song.


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 07:10 AM

THere seems to be a confusion between 'tempo' and 'pulse' here - two different things
Most of MacColl's songs are in poetic rhythm - they are seldom blank verse.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 07:30 AM

anyway to say peggy seeger has bad banjo teChnique is IMO INACCURATE


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: GUEST,akeaton
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 07:53 AM

I would say that some of your comments regarding me, Jack, are not only inaccurate, but something much more dangerous.
It is my opinion that Peggy Seeger is not a very good banjo player.
That is simply my opinion and others are welcome to put forward their views.


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: gillymor
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 10:11 AM

Peggy performing Dock Bogg's Country Blues live.
Yep, she's a real hack.


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 11:47 AM

"Yep, she's a real hack." (didn't work Gilly)
TRY THIS From half a century ago
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 11:53 AM

i hear no evidence of bad technique in jim carrolls example, it is ok to say you do not like something that is a matter of taste but to say a player has bad technique,then examples should be provided


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 12:15 PM

Ahhhhgh!!!


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 12:16 PM

Starts poorly, but after a wee while it gets worse!


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: gillymor
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 12:18 PM

I was able open your link, Jim, I suppose mine was area-restricted. Point being though, Peggy Seeger can play the snot out of the 5 string.


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 12:56 PM

"Starts poorly, but after a wee while it gets worse!"
I assume that's Ake and he prefered not to put his name to it on the grounds that it might incriminate him!!
I really would love to hear what you consider 'good'
Peggy is acknowledged as one of the finest instrumentalists on the folk scene - on both sides of The Pond
I chose that recording deliberately because of its age - she was great fifty years ago and she got progressively better
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 03:39 PM

well i would not say PEGGY showed bad bnjo technique, ake neaton may not like Ewans scottish accent or the style of banjo accompaniment, but that is a question of taste is not an illustration of bad technique, bad technique is not about style. I did not particularly like the track, but there was no evidence of bad technique from anyone, Ewan was in tune his breathing and vocal control was good so was peggys banjo technique.
the only minor criticism and this may be because i am not that familiar with this particular dialect and variety of scottish accent, was occasional lack of clear comprehensible diction, but that has nothing to with peggys banjo technique.


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: Jeri
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 04:04 PM

One day people will not get manipulated to post off-topic stuff by trolls.

...well, it could happen.

If people want to argue with akenaton about Peggy's banjo playing skills, somebody start a thread about it and not post in this thread about her biography. Please?


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 04:07 PM

Peggy took lessons from Elizabeth (Libba) Cotten?

I believe Peggy was already playing guitar before she was aware of Elizabeth's playing. Her father played guitar as did her brother and at least one half brother. If she took lessons from Elizabeth she would have to translate the left handed upside down finger picking pattern and therefore chord shapes completely to suit the right hand style that she was teaching us in 1959.

However as Jim knows everything I am sure he will correct me.

I was interested in the style of banjo playing used to accompany MacColl on Jim's sample, it almost made me believe I was listening to a genuine Scottish field recording and not a performance by and Englishman and an American woman.

A Guid New Year to all


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: StephenH
Date: 02 Jan 18 - 04:18 PM

Just on the subject of the book, per se, I wanted to add my tuppence-worth. I'm finding it a hugely enjoyable read (I'm about half-way through.) As Peggy herself says, there is no attempt to be chronological - from the foreword: "My book roams freely around time,emotions, opinions, prejudices and a lot of whatever." She also recommends reading Jean Freedman's bio alongside the memoir.
By turns the book reflects self-criticism, egotism, compassion, love and
a whole host of other qualities - just like a real person!
I highly recommend it.
a propos the discussion immediately preceding: Here is a partial quote from p192, where Peggy is discussing the early days of skiffle when players would turn their attentions to ballads such as "The Twa Magicians":
Accompanied, "The Twa Magicians" has no pulse anymore, just rhythm. Ill-considered accompaniments wreaked havoc. An instrumentalist would turn a 5/4 song into a 4/4 to fit with the duple metres preferred by the five-string banjo. Songs would speed up, passengers on a runaway train rocketing along on metrically precise rails. I blush with shame when I hear some of my early backings for Ewan's songs and the speed at which I sang some of my own. I use recordings of them for cannon fodder when I teach accompaniment."
Sounds like a pretty self-aware accompanist.


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: Vic Smith
Date: 07 Jan 18 - 12:12 PM

This appeared on page 40 of yesterday's "The Guardian":-

Corrections and clarifications


*
A review of Peggy Seeger's memoir quotes her description of her early impressions of Ewan MacColl and how they fell in love, saying he had a "hairy, fat, naked belly poking out, and was clad in ill-fitting trousers, suspenders, no shirt, a ragged jacket and a filthy lid of stovepipe hat aslant like a garbage can". The context we omitted was that MacColl was appearing in a production of The Threepenny Opera (First Time Ever, 30 December, page 5, Review).


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jan 18 - 12:20 PM

"I believe Peggy was already playing guitar before she was aware of Elizabeth's playing."
She was, but she incorporated Libba's style of playing into what she was already doing
"However as Jim knows everything I am sure he will correct me."
There really isn't any need for this Hoot - it really doesn't say much for either the subject or for youi
Stop fucking pu a reasonably friendly discussion - they rarely happen when MacColl is mentioned
A Guid New Year to you too
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jan 18 - 01:00 PM

Great stuff Vic
For the reference, click onto the photo next to 1954-53 HERE
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: GUEST,keberoxu
Date: 07 Jan 18 - 01:32 PM

That onstage-role context was indeed missing
when the book critic printed the quote in the newspaper,
and yes, it makes ALL the difference --

much obliged, many thanks.


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Jan 18 - 04:09 PM

it was still a misquote because it had nothing to do with the first time,she apprantly fell in love with him after she had been singing the house carpenter , he came over and introduced himself, and gave her a complimentary ticket for the threepenny opera, after that he offered to drive her home and it seems it was AFTER that. the suggestion is that she fell in love with him in his stage gear, if you read her words that is not so, really shoddy journalism


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Jan 18 - 04:15 PM

JIM, more corrct to say he was influenced by libba , you cannot incoporate that style, unless you play the guitar upside down , which means playing the bass strings upward with fingers, peggy seeger does not do that


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 08 Jan 18 - 12:14 PM

Re the link given by Jim above at 1.00pm on the 7th which gives goes to a run down on Ewan's history. At risk of upsetting Jim again can I point out an error;

"1960: Ballads and Blues Club is renamed the Singers Club."

The Ballads and Blues Club ran until May 1965. It was not renamed. Ewan and Peggy left the Ballads and Blues to form the Singers Club and I took over the Ballads and Blues club bookings from September 1961 when we re-opened after the Summer break at the old Partisan Coffee Bar premises in Carlisle Street until it's close at The King of Corsica pub.

Just trying to correct another piece of misinformation.


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: GUEST,bob a.f.
Date: 08 Jan 18 - 12:18 PM

Coincidentally, text of a 1996 interview of Peggy Seeger, that might tie-in, somewhat, to this biography, was recently posted in three parts on the Protest Folk Magazine blog:

http://protestfolkmagazine.blogspot.com/


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jan 18 - 12:54 PM

""1960: Ballads and Blues Club is renamed the Singers Club.""
We've discussed this before Hoot - that was the general claim by many who were around at the time - I wasn't there so I'm not qualified to jusge
Why on earth should I be annoyed - something that happened over sixty years ago is really not something that bothers me one way or another, remembered or misremembered, though it obviously bothers you   
"text of a 1996 interview of Peggy Seeger"
THanks for the link Bob
It says at the top of the article that it is the 'conclusion'
I wonder if there might be more of it available
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jan 18 - 01:09 PM

Sorry Bob
I've jut realised I was reading Peggy's piece arse-uppards - all of the episodes are there
Thanks again
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 06:48 AM

Jim,

You appear to have had a change of mind. On the odd occasion in the past when I have posted about the Ballads and Blues club you have come back indicating that although you weren't there you knew someone that was, implying that therefore you were qualified.

It doesn't bother me, I am just trying to point out an error.

If something that happened over sixty years ago doesn't bother you why the f**k do you waffle on and on and on tying yourself in knots and getting your bowels in an uproar and insulting so many people about the origins of a song.


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 08:54 AM

"knew someone that was, implying that therefore you were qualified."
No Hoot
I knew several people who were there who I trust - that doesn't make me an expert
I bother because I have become extremely tired of not being able to discuss what I believe to be the valuable lessons to be learned from the revival because of misinformation, backbiting and almost necrophobic hatred of one of its leading participants
I have insulted nobody regarding the origins of songs - I have on occasion reacted to personal insults aimed at me that you have obviously chosen to ignore
I ragard behaviour like yours as typical of the backbiting that has naused up any chance at discussing the revival - yours dishonest and extremely partisan accusation is a prime example of such behavior
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 09 Jan 18 - 12:07 PM

Jim I can assure you that I do not hate anyone even the person to whom you are obviously referring. He may be your idol but I found him something of a phoney but that is purely an opinion.

You also accuse me of being dishonest. I trust that you can quote an instance.


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Jan 18 - 03:10 PM

I am reading this and also reading journeyman , which i find a more interesting read, i have admiration for peggy as a performer, but i dont think this biography does her justice in fact it has in my opinion a negative tone and a critical carping flavour


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 10:25 AM

Jim,

Three days and I am still awaiting evidence of my dishonesty. Or alternatively an apology.


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 03:29 AM

Hoot
Missed this because I decided I can't be arsed with getting involved in a slanging match
I find your statement about an argument I am involved in (and you, largely are not) both partisan (without your having the balls to take part it) both dishonest and unfair - maybe I used the wrong words - perhaps I should just have said "crass"
Exaunt
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: Vic Smith
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 07:35 AM

Exaunt? What has someone who used to be a sister of your father or mother to do with this thread?


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 07:52 AM

Jim,

Simple question:

Which statement of mine was dishonest and unfair ? or crass?


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 08:09 AM

I've just put up what I regard as crass
If you can't bother reading it I can't e bothered putting it up again
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: Vic Smith
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 08:30 AM

Exaunt
Jim Carroll

Ah! I think that I may have worked it out! You may have meant to type Exeunt - the instruction that film and television scriptwriters and playwrites use when their character leaves the set or stage..... but if that is the case why have you posted again at 15 Jan 18 - 08:09 AM?
Confusing.


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 09:31 AM

Probably used the wrong word Vic - not important to bother with unless someone wants to score points
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: Vic Smith
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 09:51 AM

Score points? I was merely trying to work things out to help me, and possibly others, to understand your post.

Why would I want to 'score points' against the Mudcat regular whose posts are always the most thoughtful and considerate, whose consideration of the views and opinions of others are always uppermost in what he writes, who is always ready to concede the posts of others when they carefully made and supported with facts; the Mudcat regular who always enchews insulting those he disagrees with, who never repeats himself or labours a point, is never contradictory, who carefully considers all the implications of what he has written on the feelings of others.... and would never say that he is leaving a post (exaunt or exeunt) only to return to if five hours later?


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 15 Jan 18 - 09:57 AM

Jim

Why can you not reproduce the words of mine which you claim to be "dishonest, unfair, crass"?

Are never able to give a short simple answer to a short simple question?


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Feb 18 - 03:43 AM

At one piont in the book she says Alf said you can playt chords but not melody.
this is wrong, Iwqorked out a style based on the playing of Gordon Cutty, where you do play acompaniment and melody on the English Concertina, you play the chords off the beat, on my latest recordinmg there is aversion of Washington Post which sounds like a duet concertina, it is difficult but it can be done , my version of ball of yarn is another examplehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8H9wpMBVtw


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Feb 18 - 03:57 AM

typo above Alf said you cannot play both together, on thge EC this is very wrong. YES IT IS DIFFICULT BUT I HAVE DONE IT, the old players like Gordon Cutty did IT. I learned to do this too, other examples i recorded were Woodland Flowers primrose polka, but gordon cutty was a better player than me and had numerous examples of it not just a few


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Subject: RE: Peggy Seeger biography 2017
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Feb 18 - 05:07 AM

here is primrose polkahttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boqwtu3xPzU

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