BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)

Subject: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: Musket
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 03:55 AM

Go on then, I'll start it.

I'm just waiting for someone to find out how much our people here in The UK knew about it and to what level.

You see, I doubt the state sponsored terrorists with CIA ranks will be brought to justice yet get the feeling if one agent here knew about one prisoner on one flight crossing UK air space, our prison population will increase by one, such is the outrage against a country we see as allies. Tory Bliar will be wearing a prickly shirt (again.)

How many in The USA? Bush has already dismissed the findings. Will he be held in a federal or Texas prison?

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 05:39 AM

What I think when I hear of these things is "do as we say, not as we do".

Not much room left for noble speeches at the UN condeming others for the inhumane treatment of those detained in conflict. There is little "high ground" left.

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 06:00 AM

The historians all agree that the torture was fair, justified and well led. Besides other people did worse things so it is OK and I bet you cannot find one person alive who disagrees with me.

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 06:21 AM

So, if torture is ok, why complain if the enemy does the same thing to your folks? Why sign onto agreements banning such acts?

If you ask folks if they agree that their countries solders should be subjected to torture, if captured, it is also likely that they would say, no.

In these cases McCain, who was subjected to torture, stated no valuable information was gained. Nothing gained.

Additionally, It also seems that it was done without letting the top governing folks know. Significant, when your country has signed onto international agreements for the humane treatment of those detained in conflict. At a minimum, one would expect top approval where important international protocols were involved.

Considering everything associated, I suspect there are worse things done to those detained that did not get into the report.

A first step towards "no holds barred, I suspect.

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 06:21 AM

No we didn't...
More to the point, if the torture was a quation of individual initiative/excess of zeal/homicidal mania and nobody in command outside of the CIA was reasponsible, even then the question arises why nobody in the US is doing anything about it.
Because the most crying justification for every extremist one might dread is the "Oh, is that it? Knew it all the time. Next." coming from Capitol Hill.   It's as if the US is not responsible or accountable to anyone - but as it is a War Crime and the US has recognised the fact, even if it has not ssigned up to the ICJ, from what is coming out of the UN it may be referred there anyway, and if it is, then it will either have to recognise the Court or absent itself and find itself sent down by default in absentia.
The ICJ tends to take the viewpoint that it's only criminals who have an interest in disrespecting it. The same is effectively true of the Republicans for absenting themselves from the enquiry. So, if you're on the pitch but not in the game, you'll be taken out. Or in real-world terms, I thnks we may have just seen the end of the US as a Superpower.
The UK tends to dispose of its problems "with extreme prejudice", cf David Kelly, also a section head of the NAO some ten years back and one or two others. Which is better, I don't know, but to imagine that we have moved on from Tudors days is a fiction of the imagination.
All you have to do is recast the CIA as the Inquisition and you're right back into the same domain of a fanatically-inspired bunch of sadistic murderers, not easily distinguishable from their opponents. Roll in the mud, get dirt in your knicker, they say, but even so...

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: GUEST,Some bloke in Scotland
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 08:25 AM

This is about reality in The USA Rahere, not fantasy about conspiracy theories over here. David Kelly's suicide and the awful way in which he was treated is bad enough without fairy stories about real James Fucking Bond..

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 08:43 AM

Knowing the history of the C.I.A. and its past lies and illegal shenanigans, why anyone should be suprised at these findings is completely beyond me.

As for Dumbya dismissing the findings, he was probably too stupid to realize what was actually going on, but Dick Cheney knew full well, and approved of it.

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: GUEST,#
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 09:08 AM

Interesting that when the allegations came out about Guantanamo about a dozen years ago they were called conspiracy theories. Maybe not, huh?

Subject: RE: BS: CIA SHIT torturers
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 09:14 AM

Sophistication
Hubris
Intelligence
Thought

These factors may be called S.H.I.T. for short

The combination and degree of these S. H. I. T. factors in our Supreme Court appointed President all added up to decisions from a desperate and an inferiority laden mind to revenge, to make suffer and ultimately, to torture.

If you educate yourself to the most common modes of the latest forms of CIA torture, they overwhelmingly involve shit and rectal fixations;
Covering with shit, diapered with shit, cells full of shit with no bucket, rectal feeding and shitting back undigested food , even the ever popular eating of shit all expose the personal repugnant feelings regarding shit by the CIA psychologists who invented this 'stuff' and the leader who approved of it.

Relative to lethal Nazi torture techniques the American methods tend to stress cruelty over death as their goal.

If you look at the people who devised and advised modern AMERICAN TORTURERS and the fearful leader who requested it, you too may conclude that while the procedures where full of shit the decision to do so was severely lacking in Sophistication, Hubris, Intelligence and Thought.

Every torture devised, betrays the mindset of those who ordered and carried out their wishes. It sure the hell did not come from God. Actually, biblical descriptions of torture are far more bloody and "cutting edge".

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 09:25 AM

Now I'm back to the sauces dips and sausage thread.

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: BrendanB
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 09:33 AM

I cannot accept any argument that defends torture as legitimate. However, I do believe that when a person finds themselves up close and personal with those they perceive to be evil doers, whether that be terrorists, rapists, paedophiles or whatever and that same person is tasked with stopping them it must be a temptation to overstep the mark in the belief that the ends will justify the means.
It is easy to sit back in one's armchair and say that they should have been professional enough to resist that temptation but when one is in the thick of it I suspect that things do not seem so black and white.
Were I ever in that position I hope that I would have the moral courage to resist - but I cannot be certain.

The USA has faced this sorry business even though some of the participants refuse to acknowledge their involvement. I wonder if the UK government will show the same moral fibre?

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 09:40 AM

professional enough to resist that temptation

This wasn't a one-on-one moral choice for participants, Brendan - these atrocities were part of a codified & established program.

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: GUEST,John P
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 09:43 AM

Why so many of us in America don't trust our government:

The Catholic Church conducts a wide-spread conspiracy to commit child rape and isn't investigated.

The CIA places illegal wiretaps on Congress and no one is indicted.

The CIA, condoned by very high-ranking officials, conducts illegal torture and no one is indicted.

The NSA conducts billions of illegal wiretaps and no one is indicted.

The President of the United States tells outright lies in order to justify invading another country and kill tens of thousand of people and is still walking around free.

The list goes on and on.

I voted for Obama and, given the nature of any Republican, would do so again. But his administration has failed to demand that our government act within the law and within common decency. It has failed to make any individual take responsibility for wildly illegal and unconstitutional actions. This makes it a failed presidency in my book. Anyone with the right kind of power can apparently get away with anything.

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 09:49 AM

a failed presidency in my book.

Sorry, John, but the Prez can't do much without Congress, which has been obstructed and paralized by the Repugnicans since day 1 of Obama's presidency. I'm not saying Obama is blameless, but do put the vast majority of the blame where it actually belongs.

Also,its silly to blame Obama for things that happened under Dumbya's watch.

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: BrendanB
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 10:32 AM

'These atrocities were part of a codified and established programme'

I accept that stricture Greg but I understood from a news report on UK TV last night that some CIA operatives requested reassignment, so perhaps there was room for a moral choice to be made at an individual level.

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: GUEST,#
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 10:38 AM

ACLU about Guantanamo for those who didn't know a thing.

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 10:42 AM

Yet the debate from the Americans is entirely introspective and utterly fails to take into account that this is being watched across the world. The BBC got bored and went elsewhere, so I watched it to the end on al-Jazeera, to see what kind of reception it might get the other side of the fence.
The people that were tortured are not Americans and so America affected other countries, regardless of the justification or not. These acts may have let the perpetrators of 9/11 off the hook: happy? 'd think not, so why my sainted mother's aunt did they do it?
The failure of the Republicans to have an input may impact internally as a "not in my name" argument, but has absolutely no effect internationally, not least because most of this seems to have occurred under them. The Report is now cast in stone, and the demands in the UN are unlikely to go away: once such a demand is formalised, it cannot be disregarded but must be processed. The response to that may affect how the UN treats the US henceforth: if it is ignored, it could be termed a pariah State. The charges here are on the same scale as Milosevic and company, and they thought they weren't signatories to the appropriate Conventions either. There's such a thing as learning the hard way.

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: GUEST,under the bar-guest
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 10:50 AM

The same thing was going on the north of Ireland in the early 1970,s, read the book by 'The Guineapigs' by John McGuffin (1974).

Subject: CIA torturers WHO KNEW ?
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 11:14 AM

I knew. You knew. We all knew.

On a cold April day Frau Dieseldorf decided not to hang the laundry out to dry. In the bucket the clothes pins floated in cold rain water with a layer of grime on top. Most of all there was a putrid smell of burning meat in the air. It was better than before when the smell of hair was unbearable but that had been gone since winter.

Just like us the German people knew. Like us they did not know all the names and addresses but there were plenty of people who spoke their conscience of what they saw as well as those who bragged.

As long as it didn't spoil the sheets or foul up our commute we did nothing about it.

The torture belongs to you as much as me. I didn't know or I was just following orders doesn't wash. It won't wash away the stain on your hands. It is on you as much as it is on me.

Just like any bigotry even if you don't act out an act of hate you at least took advantage of white privilege without a thought to those who have no such privilege.

Like it or not, defend it or not, it is your torture no matter how removed you insist you are. It is in your nations name,. It is in your name.

With the release of the 6 million page report all that has changed is the who, how you and why you deserve to be treated in kind without care or concern from your torturer. Or perhaps you have no soul.

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: olddude
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 11:32 AM

A CIA field office cannot do this no cia agent would do this not because of morality but because they can be charged. What happened was a very high level guy like the director under bush hired some contractors and said get us the information. Torture doesn't work agents use money which does work. The contractors are ex special forces that are not trained for anything but killing. Black Ops contractors get away with anything because they are private. I blame Cheney and the bush administration. It was a disgrace to America.

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: olddude
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 11:43 AM

What was it 300 million for useless info. Agency knows Torture doesn't work but bush wanted revenge at any cost and no agent would do this. Hire some mercenaries instead and the agency gets reports only. A disgrace to America

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 12:20 PM

Think yourselves luck that you have someone to blame.

We in the UK were taken to war by a "Labour" administration, which condoned and assisted in the "rendition" of Al Qaeda suspects.

Which means the transportation of "suspects" to countries willing to torture un-convicted prisoners. We have supported and armed Islamists all over the middle East, for half baked ideological reasons.
All who voted and continued to vote for Mr Blair have no right to any "high ground".

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 12:25 PM

A CIA field office cannot do this no cia agent would do this

Dan, you don't know how much I would like to believe this, but if so, why is the entire CIA establishment denying that it was torture and claiming that it produced marvellous results?

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: olddude
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 12:39 PM

You are correct Greg. It is like the military. Political people say go here and fight and soldiers do. Then the administration hires merks to fight also. Then the next administration says oops. The cia directors come and go but the guys in the trenches shake their heads. Cia directors were never good at admitting cluster fucks even if it was another administration. Any field agent would say it was wrong and doomed to fail and against the law but admission has to come from a director and that won't happen for political reasons not for common decency or illegal acts. They don't ever apologize even for past sins
Sad for sure

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: Acorn4
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 12:44 PM

It wasn't torture, it was "enhanced interrogation techniques" - and that makes it OK!!

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: olddude
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 12:49 PM

Yeah Torture by any other term is Torture. Cia directors are appointed by an administration and if the administration is corrupt revenge directed people. Then they will say it's legal and when the field agents say no way they hire merks. It was doomed to fail. I only thank those with the guts to release the full report so it doesn't repeat

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 01:06 PM

""Now I'm back to the sauces dips and sausage thread.""

They even used those to torture folks! Even a Shah (or, was it Shaw) would be above that type of torture.

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 02:07 PM

I am surprised at Ake. There is not someone else to blame if you are American.


Depending upon who you ask, the Holocaust was technically legal.

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 02:16 PM

Blended to a picante Puree.

what drug led to that kind of imagination?

I have had the experience of saying no to the CIA recruitment officers as a young man. My experience as a full time hypnotist dovetailed with the CIA'a long standing use of hypnosis for murder and torture. The last of their infamous hypnotists had died of old age. I saw what kind of future would be in store for me and said no and hell no. They were even cruel and inhuman to me for saying no. long story...

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 02:26 PM

Well Don, many Americans here are blaming their political opponents,
George Bush and the Repubs.

As I have said, a supposedly left of centre regime in the UK dragged the British people into Iraq on the coattails of Mr Bush.
We cannot blame the Conservatives for Iraq as the "liberals" here blame the Republicans.

Correct me if I am wrong but did the Democrats not support the Iraq war almost to a man?

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: Musket
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 02:29 PM

Takes a lot for him to surprise me though. When your whole life is someone else's fault, your mindset is disturbed to say the least.

I find it difficult to see what a third world government with bad human rights record or a freelance set of what they see themselves as freedom fighters will make of this.

If the country that goes further than any other in exporting its values is seen as immoral, what should people aspire to? (That's irony in case you.., never mind.)

Just think, your ex President worked on the idea American people would see this as necessary. For me, this is a good day. It shows the calibre of those not prepared to go along with such crimes and the outrage from good honest people in The USA is the start of the solution not the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 02:34 PM

Hmm I was voting SNP and protesting the war while YOU say you were voting for Blair.....no high ground for you boy!

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 02:38 PM

"Torture and other forms of abusive or coercive techniques often serve to strengthen an individual's resolve to resist, deepen his commitment to a cause, serve as a foundational theme for recruiting campaigns designed to attract others to violent extremism, and generate a lingering division among allies and international partners," wrote the signatories of today'sstatement. "In sum, it not only undermines an interrogator's ability to elicit useful information, it also undermines our nation's ability to counter threats to its security. Torture makes our nation less secure."
Source- News release from seventeen of US of As most respected interrogation and intelligence professionals -Oct. 1, 2014:




Intelligence Professionals Take Stand against Torture  

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 02:44 PM

This story is not over.

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: olddude
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 03:32 PM

Like it don't believe it or not it is an administration problem. The next director can get an order from the next Cheney that it is legal to use poison gas and some merks will be hired to do it cause field agents won't knowing it would be jail time for them
Merks nope they already have a get out of jail free card before they agree

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: olddude
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 03:39 PM

I said before a cia field agent that is not a hired merks then has to try an clean up the shit of bad political leaders who ever they be. They will get an order to try and mend fences. Which will be next to impossible in our arab allies

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: olddude
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 03:46 PM

And if you're looking for justice forget it before blackwater took the first dime of the millions of dollars they wanted a get out of jail free letter from the oval Office and you can take that to the bank they got it. Thank god we have people that will release the report.

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: olddude
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 03:54 PM

Think of that prison abuse who did they go after, a couple of low rank uniformed soldiers but who ran the prison.. Blackwater any of them in jail?

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: olddude
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 04:03 PM

Last thing you want free reign, get a letter from the oval Office saying all actions are necessary for national security and immune to procecution and you can do anything you want

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 04:05 PM

Bush and his ilk got away with a lot of crap under the guise of "patriotism" - to the extent that many voted with him in the early days because to not do so would mean an outcry about various elected officials not being patriotic. There was a herd mentality in place.

Those who didn't like Bush already still didn't trust him but were outnumbered, and with Cheney by his side, the two got away with murder in so many ways. The spying, torture, rendition, and monitoring of Americans on American soil are the legacy of the Baby Bush administration.

The Diane Rehm Show (WAMU-FM in Washington, D.C.) discussed this 6700 page report today.

One wonders if anyone will manage to read the entire thing and report based upon that knowledge, vs those who will dip in and take things out of context.

Yesterday a conversation on NPR considered the possibility of Obama pardoning some of these folks - not because they don't deserve to be tried, but because trials would take a very long time and a lot of money, and IF THEY ARE PARDONED THEY ARE BRANDED AS CRIMINALS (who just happened to be pardoned). It might be the best we can hope for.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 04:06 PM

if decent blokes didn't sign up to do whatever evil bastards and corrupt governments tell them to do, then none of this shit would happen. it's easy - just say 'no'

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: olddude
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 04:50 PM

Amen ach so very true

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 05:13 PM

Sadly it isn't easy just to say no when the government has the press in it's pocket and the money men hold the government by the balls. Propaganda and campaigns to get people to hate whoever they deem to be the enemy, rather than see who the real criminals are, are very powerful tools to get people on your side. It happened not that many years ago in Germany. It is still happening today in the US, UK and all over Europe.

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 05:21 PM

Remember him?

"Alberto Gonzales is currently the Dean of Belmont University College of Law, in Nashville, Tennessee where he currently teaches Constitutional Law, Separation of Powers, National Security Law and First Amendment Law. He is also counsel at a Nashville-based law firm, Waller, where he advises clients on special matters, government investigations and regulatory matters."

To my mind, if anyone is indicted/prosecuted for this travesty, so should Gonzales be. He was the US Attorney General who assured the Bush administration that, hey, it is all legal.

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 05:22 PM

No doubt Juan Peron had suitable training from the CIA!!!

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 05:58 PM

Gonzales was just on the TV, Ebbie, saying that Dumbya new all about it & what's the problem? & that yes, they kept the facts from Colin Powell deliberately.

Also Michael Hayden, Dumbya's CIA director saying yeah, so what's the big deal? - Gonzales said it was OK! & trying to weasel-word his way out of the fact that it was torture.

Guess Hayden & the CIA "vass only following orders", ja?

What a bunch of scumbags, scuttling around like cockroaches when the light's turned on..

Can't wait for Cheney to be interviewed - THAT should be a REAL travesty.

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: olddude
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 07:16 PM

Yeah listened to the son of a Bitch. Cheney would have done well in Nazi Germany would he not. Listen it doesn't work Torture never once worked never and we got jack shit from it but why would we suspect he wouldttell the truth.
At least it is all out maybe some good can come of it all

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Dec 14 - 09:39 PM

Except that for those of us in the countries where our government collaborated in all this it's not "all out".

America needs to stop covering up that stuff. Covering up criminal activity just makes it certain it will happen again.

Americans shouldn't be the only ones in the dock over this. And that shouldn't be a merely metaphorical dock either - Tony Blair and Jack Straw should be up alongside Cheney and Bush in a real dock.

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: GUEST,ollaimh
Date: 11 Dec 14 - 12:15 AM

the American learned thr water boarding from the uk. the british perfected these techniques for the "special treatment" they gave a number of irish they thought on bad info, were ira. none were but most were destroyed for life. the great anglo empire goes on. they torture folks. face facts. they pretend to have moral high ground for internal political reasons, just like putin, but the wolr d knows they both torture.

the british used wide spread torture in Kenya, and in basra to a lesser extent more recently. and of course all over Africa and he new world. they introduced scalping, and did ethnic cleansing in the new world. oh yeah the quarter million irish taken as slaves and sold to carribean plantations.   

face it the americans and the british are part of the military capitalist , permant warfare state,(they call it laissez faire capitalism or free enterprize) that means torture and genocide if convient.
American and british voters have to stop voting for the jingoist parties who wave the flag if they want it to stop.   that probably means the green party in the us, unless the democrats change. and the peace and freedom party in the uk.   however the anglo saxon extreme nationalism makes this unlikely.

I think Obama would have done more without the extreme obstructionist congress, but the real problem is American flag waving stupid nationalists who just voted republican, thinking that will change something. they voted for the party that made the deficit mess and the Iraq and torture mess, with no memory at all.

of course, the cia still fans the war fare option. schuer was on television saying the problem is Obama won't use the military to solve problems, with no apparent awareness of the irony that without the invasion of Iraq there would be no isis and many fewer problems and a few trillion dollars less debt.

yaeh a lot of them should be prosecuted, but so should a lot of british torturers. and as john p says a lot of catholics(hopefully William lynn will lose his appeal) and a lot of people who tortured native children in residential schools. but the evil ones are in power and they know how to keep that power.

Subject: RE: BS: CIA torturers (God Bless America)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Dec 14 - 02:39 AM

http://cms.fightforthefuture.org/pardonjohn/

http://cms.fightforthefuture.org/pardonjohn/