BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jan 16 - 02:09 AM

No such thing as "the Redmond Enquiry" Keith - I made it up, so how can you claim what it said, which you did.

I am sorry I believed your lie.
I made no claim about what it said. I just responded to your made up claim of what it said, not realising that the whole thing was just more made up shit by you.
I too can be gullible at times.

But you did not make it up Jim, you just got the name wrong.
Your Macbride references are not quotes. It is how some website you chose not to name reported it.
Here it is reported using the wording you now claim to have made up.

"The MacBride commission's report, Israel in Lebanon, concluded that the Israeli authorities or forces were directly or indirectly responsible in the massacres and other killings that have been reported to have been carried out by Lebanese militiamen in Sabra and Shatila in the Beirut area between 16 and 18 September."
http://www.wikileaks-forum.com/sabra-and-shatila-massacre/613/sabra-and-shatila-massacre-general-info/26766/

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 16 - 04:20 AM

More weasely words from a charlatan

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jan 16 - 04:20 AM

Enough of this Keith
These are the facts as I know them – I've become tired of your unqualified claims; if you have any evidence that they aren't correct, produce it
The Israelis suspected that Sabra/Shatila was full of weapons and fighters "The Israelis maintained that 2,000 to 3,000 "terrorists" remained in the camps, following Israeli guidance on how to enter it. The forces were mostly Phalangist, though there were some men from Saad Haddad's "Free Lebanon forces""- Wiki

Despite Israeli claims, neither weapons nor fighters were found, in fact the killers met with no armed resistance whatever from the refugees.
Knowing the bad blood between the Christian militia, 1,500 militiamen assembled at Beirut International Airport, then occupied by Israel. Under the command of Elie Hobeika, they began moving towards the area in IDF-supplied jeeps, some bearing weapons provided by Israel, (above link).
The Israelis drove the militiamen to the camp, opened the gates for them, and set up a base within range– they had previously fired shells into the camps.
"During that period, Israeli units were sporadically firing artillery rounds into the Sabra and Shatila camps, although no fire was being returned because the last PLO defenders had been evacuated two weeks earlier, and any arms larger than handguns had been collected at that time.
At noon Thursday, Sept. 16, a delegation of five old men bearing white flags tried to negotiate an end to the shelling of the two camps by the Israeli forces, which had now surrounded the camps and sealed the exits. Four of the Palestinian negotiators were killed. At 5 p.m. the first 150 Phalangist militiamen entered the camps and at 5:30 Israeli forces began firing flares over them to illuminate the narrow, twisting alleys, where massacres had already begun in one area only 100 yards from the nearest Israeli observation post. At this point mobs of Palestinian women began rushing to nearby camp exits, seeking to escape. Israeli tanks, stationed at 100- or 200-yard intervals and blocking all exits, turned back everyone. Israeli officers have testified that it was about this time that they first heard the order to kill the women and children, as well as the men, relayed over a walkie-talkie by militia commander Elie Hobeika, from the command post he shared with the Israelis. Israeli units continued firing illumination flares over the camps, a pattern they maintained throughout Thursday and Friday nights.
Starting Thursday evening, horribly wounded victims began pouring into two hospitals in the camps, and the airwaves were full of commands revealing what was going on inside, and queries from Israeli officers and enlisted men, who could not believe that their commanders realized that whole families were being slaughtered in front of their eyes. When two Israeli officers stationed in adjacent tanks began discussing with each other the executions of children they were watching, the voice of General Amos Yaron, commander of Israeli forces in Beirut, came on the air to warn them against such talk on the military radio."
WASHINGTON REPORT

The Phalangists slaughtered up to 3,500 of the occupants, raping the women then cutting their throats – corpses of pregnant women who had been disembowelled and their dead children ripped out were found throughout the area.
The Israelis provided illumination so the slaughter could be carried out throughout the night.
At the end of three days, the Israelis ordered the Falagists to stop and began to hide the evidence of the massacre with bulldozers.

"By Friday morning Israeli army bulldozers had arrived. While the Phalangist militiamen rested, corpses were bulldozed into a mass grave and Israeli soldiers sent food and water across the barricades to the militiamen. Word of what was going on spread rapidly throughout Beirut. Ze'ev Schiff, military correspondent of the Israeli daily Ha'aretz, began telephoning Israeli officials, including Minister of Communications Mordechai Zippori. Zippori telephoned then Foreign Minister Yitzhak Shamir."
(Report from Washington link)

The Falangists were driven away – none were ever arrested or charged.
Jewish American nurse, Ellen Seigal, was present throughout the three days, treating the wounded, she was a loyal support of The State of Israel and gave evidence to the Kahan Enquiry.
Since the massacre she has dedicated her life to telling the world what happened over those three day.
HEROES OF SABRA SHATILA

Israel facilitated the massacre, they helped arm the killers, they illuminated the slaugher, they prevented the victims from escaping and survivors claim Israeli soldiers were seen in the camp while the killing was taking place:
"The Israel Defense Forces surrounded the Palestinian refugee camps, controlled access to them, and facilitated the massacre by firing illuminating flares over the camps.[5][6] In 1982, an independent commission chaired by Sean MacBride concluded that the Israeli authorities or forces were, directly or indirectly, responsible.[7] The Israeli government established the Kahan Commission to investigate, and in early 1983 it found that Israeli military personnel were aware that a massacre was in progress without taking serious steps to stop it. Therefore it regarded Israel as having indirect responsibility. The commission held Ariel Sharon personally responsible for having disregarded the prospect of acts of bloodshed by the Phalangists against the population of the refugee camps and not preventing their entry.[8] METAPEDIA

That is how I understand the events – if you have any evidence that this did not happen, produce it Keith – your one man campaign to rewrite history is sickening
Jim Carroll
By the way, the article and others from The Washington Report (published by the American Educational Trust) is well worth reading in full

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jan 16 - 04:39 AM

Further reading:
Truth about Israel's vile role in 1982 Sabra-Shatila massacre of Palestinians

At Last the Truth About Sabra and Chatila Massacres

Enjoy!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jan 16 - 05:06 AM

Jim, all the anti-Israel sites and Israel's enemies put up all that propaganda.
Do not swallow it all without question. You know they tell lies.

MacBride left responsibility as "directly or indirectly."
Israel admitted indirect responsibility as the controlling authority in Beirut at the time, but denies colluding in the massacre.

Asked for examples of all the massacres by Israeli forces you keep referring to, you take us back 35 years (!) to a massacre committed not by Israelis but by a local Arab militia.
You have failed to make your case.

No decent democratic country holds Israel responsible for any atrocity or massacre.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jan 16 - 06:37 AM

"Jim, all the anti-Israel sites and Israel's enemies put up all that propaganda."
If you have any dispute with anything I have put up, please present it - rants like "enemies of Israel" don't hack it any more.
I have checked every fact put up - pleanty of reading there if you can find somebosy capable to read it for you
Give us some of your own or go away - your one man campaign is over
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jan 16 - 06:47 AM

I have checked every fact put up

Do not be so silly.
How can you check so called "eye witnesses" who we know can be produced to say anything.

If you have any dispute with anything I have put up, please present it

Yes. I dispute the the value of quoting anti-Israel propaganda sites in a serious discussion.

Fact,
MacBride left responsibility as "directly or indirectly."
Israel admitted indirect responsibility as the controlling authority in Beirut at the time, but denies colluding in the massacre.

Fact,
Asked for examples of all the massacres by Israeli forces you keep referring to, you take us back 35 years (!) to a massacre committed not by Israelis but by a local Arab militia.
You have failed to make your case.

Fact,
No decent democratic country holds Israel responsible for any atrocity or massacre.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Jan 16 - 07:02 AM

If you think a vanilla phrase like "enemies of Israel" is a rant, Jim, I can't imagine how you would react if a real rant came along --

although to be sure your own

"one man campaign to rewrite history is sickening"

might do at a pinch as a minor instance.

≈M≈

If, indeed, there is one ranter on this topic on this site, it would be betraying no secrets to reveal that his initials are JC & he lives in Ireland, tho originating from the north of England, & was once a member of a group organised by a man from Salford with initials JM aka EMacM.

Answers on a postcard please

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jan 16 - 07:45 AM

Mike
I find your behaviour both tiresome and puzzling.
When "enemies of Israel" is used in defence as atrocities such as this it is a rant - the real enemies of Israel are those who commit these crimes in the name of the Israeli people and those who describe such criticism as an attack on the Jewish people extend that to Antisemitism.
My invitation to Keith is, of course, extended to you.
If you believe I have "re-written history", please feel free to point out where, but I would ask you hurry up - I'm not getting any younger.
Please back up your accusatiuon - I regard you as somewhat better than Keith (but I'm always happy to be corrected on that one too).
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jan 16 - 08:15 AM

Came across this during my searches - can't blue-clickie it unfortunately, but too good to ignore

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israel-must-end-its-50-year-occupation-of-palestine-the-white-house-says-10129448.html
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 16 - 08:27 AM

Re. Jon Stone: Blatant Bias and Inept Journalism in The Independent

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Jan 16 - 09:23 AM

"Mike - I find your behaviour both tiresome and puzzling" · J Carroll
.,,.

Oh, deary-me, Jim. Do you now? Perhaps I'd better take a trip down the garden to eat worms, then, eh?

Or else recall what Dr Johnson (IIRC) once remarked to a man who had spoken slightingly of something written by one of his friends, "Sir, you may be sure it was writ with little thought of pleasing you."

Do you seriously maintain that 3 (count them - three!) factual words (they are, so, 'enemies of Israel', aren't they, whatever you may regard as their motivations or putative justifications?) constitute a "rant", while your lengthy animadversions are nothing but displays of ice-cool rationality? Away you!

≈M≈


"rant
verb   speak or shout at length in a wild, impassioned way
noun: an instance of ranting"
online dictionary

Hardly think 3 words constitute 'at length' - do you. While your interminable goings-on, now...

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jan 16 - 09:34 AM

Your link comes from Honest Reporting Brucie - nowhere does is answer a single point I have raised -
The only thing I have put up from the Independent is Obama's statement - are you claiming it is faked - love to know!!!!
We seem to have an odd mixture of Trappist Monks on a vow of silence and headless chickens running around looking for something to smear all critics of the Israeli regime with.
Have any of you got anything to say about my analysis (not forgetting the information I put up to back it up, of course)apart from Keith's old usual "its's all lies" that is?
Pathetique - as Beethoven put it.
Jim Carroll

HonestReporting (also Honest Reporting or honestreporting.com) is a pro-Israel,[1][2] non-governmental organization that monitors the media for what it perceives as bias against Israel.[3] The organization has affiliates in the United States, UK, Canada, Italy, and Brazil.
Criticism[edit]
The American Journalism Review described the organisation as a "pro-Israeli pressure group".[6]

After being criticized by HonestReporting for articles published by The Independent, author Robert Fisk wrote in the Independent that some of their readers sent him hate-mail.[7]

Following a 2004 article published in the British Medical Journal which criticised Israel for a high level of Palestinian civilian casualties and claimed that the pattern of injuries suggested routine targeting of children in situations of minimal or no threat, the journal received over 500 responses to its website and nearly 1,000 sent directly to its editor. In an analysis of the responses published in the journal, Karl Sabbagh concluded that the correspondence was orchestrated by Honest Reporting and aimed at silencing legitimate criticism of Israel. In his analysis Sabbagh pointed to evidence that that the correspondents had not read the article. Sabbagh also documented a significant proportion of offensive, abusive and racist insults among the correspondence. An editorial by the BMJ referred to the campaign as bullying and said that the best way to counter such behaviour was to expose it to public scrutiny.[8][9] Daniel Finkelstein, associate editor of The Times, responded that Sabbagh's piece was "anti-Israel propaganda" that did not meet even "basic academic standards" of scientific analysis.[10]

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jan 16 - 09:41 AM

"Hardly think 3 words constitute 'at length' "
Three weds repeated interminable without fail every time criticism of the Israeli regime shows its ugly head is a "rant" in my book, but maybe 'mantra' is more accurate - I stand corrected.
I take it we're not going to revisit your somewhat distasteful accusation of my rewriting history - can't say I'm surprised, though I am somewhat disappointed - ah well - former heroes with clay feet, and all that!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Jan 16 - 10:09 AM

"take it we're not going to revisit your somewhat distasteful accusation of my rewriting history" ...

This post of yours seems addressed to me. Not sure, if so, which of our numerous previous exchanges you refer to here, Jim. Reminder?

"former heroes with clay feet, and all that!"...

I have never set out to be anyone's hero. In what way [assuming, as I said before, this is meant for me] can I have been such? & in what particular have I now fallen short?

Feel bound to say that, slice it as you will, the post I quote from here, strikes me as a fair old (what might fairly be described as) 'rant'!

Traditional greetings, whatever

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 16 - 10:21 AM

the author of your link is Simon Plosker, the editor of Honest Reporting, who has worked for the Israeli Defence Forces as a spokesperson and continues to do so as a reservist


Did Jon Stone write those excerpts cited?

Did The Independent publish them?

Is Simon Plosker making it all up?

Does the fact that Simon Plosker was in the IDF at one time and is a reservist, as are practically every Jew and many non Jews in Israel, disqualify him from critiquing Jon Stone and The Independent? You certainly seem to think so, or are just trying to smear him as you try to do with everyone who disagrees with you?

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 16 - 10:28 AM

Honest Reporting has, by the way, gotten many biased and antisemitic headlines and news stories retracted or corrected so I rather trust their judgement of bias and antisemitism that that of someone who manifests an almost pathological hatred of a country.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jan 16 - 11:02 AM

"Did Jon Stone write those excerpts cited?"
For a start, I saw no excerpts - only unsubstantiated one-line quotes, but let's look at a couple.

"Last year Richard Falk, United Nations special rapporteur on human rights in the Palestinian territories accused the Israeli government of "ethnic cleansing" by trying to replace Arab Palestinian populations in its territory with Jewish Israelis."
This is a long standing accusation coming from both outside and inside Israel – I believe it to be true, based on Israel's long-term behaviour towards the Arabs – I think you yourself have said on numerous occasions that the Arabs have no right to their homeland because they've only been there (for how long?)and should go and live among their own people.
What on earth is that if it isn't "ethnic cleansing"?

Israeli settlers have also been accused of violence against the existing inhabitants of the land they build on.
So.....?
Chemical sprays and high pressure hoses have been used with boring regularity to get farmers to leave their land – not just by the settlers, but by the army as well.
Some time ago I put up a film of an Arab family being manhandled out of their home because a bunch of settlers fancied it.
The British left to the sound of hand-grenades being tossed into occupied houses by Israeli "freedom fighters" – go read Benny Morris and Einstein's and the list of Jewish intellectuals' letter – a matter of history.
If it wasn't actual violence, it was threatened violence backed by the forces of Laura Norder.
Blaming the Independent seems a little like "shooting the messenger", as Keith is fond of saying
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jan 16 - 11:21 AM

HERE
HERE
HERE
HERE

How many more do you want?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jan 16 - 11:26 AM

TRY THIS, WHILE YOUR'E AT IT
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 16 - 11:38 AM

For a start, I saw no excerpts

"    The green line was laid out in 1949 armistice agreements between the armies of Israel and its neighbours after the 1948 Arab-Israeli war.
   
    Israel has since breached these lines and it is now currently illegally occupying parts of the Palestinian territories."

-----------------------------------------------

"The Israeli government says it needs to occupy Palestine for security reasons, despite repeated resolutions from the United Nations calling for it to withdraw."

----------------------------------------------

"Israeli settlers have also been accused of violence against the existing inhabitants of the land they build on."

----------------------------------------------

"Last year Richard Falk, United Nations special rapporteur on human rights in the Palestinian territories accused the Israeli government of "ethnic cleansing" by trying to replace Arab Palestinian populations in its territory with Jewish Israelis."

----------------------------------------------

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jan 16 - 12:10 PM

"For a start, I saw no excerpts"
In which case, they are unsubstantiated statements - though I'm sure you will now substantiate them or ignore the awkward ones.
Dealt with two - can't be arsed with the others - though a quick glance in the Independent article Stone draws from gives an interestingbit he left out "The UK government, also an ally of Israel, criticised the move and reiterated that the settlements were illegal under international law.

"The UK condemns the Government of Israel's decision of 30 January to publish new tenders for 450 settlement units in the West Bank of the Occupied Palestinian Territories. The UK's position on Israeli settlements is clear: they are illegal under international law," Conservative Middle East minister Tobias Ellwood said in a statement.
"We urge the Government of Israel to reverse this decision. It is important to focus on steps that are conducive to peace.""
Knocks Keith's "No decent democratic country" into a cocked hat.
It would appear that many democracies support Israel like the rope supports a hanged man.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jan 16 - 12:36 PM

Knocks Keith's "No decent democratic country" into a cocked hat

No it does not.

I said, "No decent democratic country holds Israel responsible for any atrocity or massacre."
That stands.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Jan 16 - 12:57 PM

Jim: Questions put to you in my post of 1009, nearly 3 hrs ago, remain unanswered, altho you have visited the thread on 4 occasions since. I asked for clarification of some not entirely clear allegations regarding previous encounters between us, possibly in earlier threads (these accusations, I repeat, were not entirely comprehensible to me), and should really appreciate the courtesy of some further elucidation as to precisely wherein these claims resided.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jan 16 - 01:47 PM

Will get back Mike - missed your bit
Israel/Occupied Palestinian Territories
"I said, "No decent democratic country holds Israel responsible for any atrocity or massacre."
That stands."
The fact that you prefer the word of self-serving politicians and nations that pour burning petrol on peasants, sell arms to despots, pay homage to feudal kings while his regime hands out 1000 lashes to dissidents, provides sniper bullets to murderers who send snipers to cut down mothers and babes-in-arms... rather than heed the word of independent makes you the THIS
that you are.
"Decent democratic countries" seem to have taken the place of "real historians" as a convenient way of avoiding facts - predictable, but non-the-less entertaining
Jim Carroll
   
Human Rights Concerns
Amnesty International's concerns are based on international standards and applied equally within the proper legal framework. The legal framework is defined by who retains jurisdiction, or effective control, over an area and the circumstances or situation at the time of the human rights violation. Amnesty's concerns within Israel-proper, the area inside the 1949 (W. Bank/E. Jerusalem) and 1951 (Gaza Strip) armistice lines (also called the '1967 borders') include but are not limited to, ill-treatment and torture of detainees, excessive use of force, the detention of conscientious objectors, and forced evictions and home demolitions within 'unrecognized' Bedouin villages.
The Israeli occupation of Palestinian territory (the West Bank including East Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip) is in its fifth decade and the undercurrent of violence and inherent abuses of fundamental human rights and disregard for international law inherent in any long-standing military occupation is presented by both sides. Both Israeli and Palestinian civilians continue to bear the brunt of the violence in the region.
Human rights violations by Israeli forces in the Occupied Palestinian Territories (OPT) have included, but are not limited to, home demolitions and the forced eviction of Palestinian families; punitive arrests, unfair trials, ill-treatment and torture of detainees and the use of excessive or lethal force to subdue nonviolent demonstrations as well as the use of restrictive legal means. In contravention of international law, Israel continues to build parts of the wall/fence in the OPT, expand settlements and use draconian restrictions on the movement of Palestinians with some 600 roadblocks and checkpoints. Amnesty International is also concerned about discriminatory policies affecting access to water for Palestinians.
In areas under control of the Palestinian Authority, concerns include, but are not limited to, excessive use of force, arbitrary arrests, ill-treatment, torture and the use of administrative detention to jail individuals without charge or trial. Some detainees also do not receive adequate medical attention.
A ceasefire between Israeli forces and Palestinian armed groups in the Gaza Strip in effect since 2009 has been generally respected. The Gaza Strip has been under increasing restrictions since 2005, when Israel unilaterally pulled troops and settlers out of the strip. June 2007, restrictions tightened to an almost air-tight blockade, deepening the hardship there and virtually imprisoning the entire population of 1.6 million.
Israel maintains effective control over Gaza, controlling all but one of the crossings into the Gaza Strip, the airspace, territorial waters, telecommunications and the population registry which determines who is allowed to leave or enter Gaza. Therefore, Israel is still considered the occupying power and is responsible for the welfare of the inhabitants in the strip under international humanitarian law.
Israeli authorities rejected or delayed hundreds of permit applications to leave Gaza by Palestinians requiring specialist medical treatment; a few died as a result. Most of Gaza's inhabitants depend on international aid, which is severely hampered by the blockade. In May 2010, Israeli forces killed nine men aboard an aid flotilla in international waters that was challenging the blockade's legality.
Amnesty also has concerns about the indiscriminate rocket fire into southern Israel by armed Palestinian groups. Palestinian militants fired a rocket into Israel that hit a school bus, killing a 16 year old boy April 2011.
Following hostilities between Israel and the Gaza Strip Dec. 2008 - Jan. 2009, Hamas has failed to conduct any domestic investigation into the serious allegations of violations of international humanitarian and human rights law committed by their forces during the conflict and Israel's investigations have been inadequate - failing to meet international standards.
Political Situation

Prospects for a just and durable resolution to the conflict are remote despite the fact that the Palestine Liberation Organization recognized the State of Israel in 1988 and Israel allowed the Palestinian leadership to return to the Occupied Territories under the Oslo Accords in 1994. Israel continues to violate international law by expanding settlements in the occupied West Bank and East Jerusalem and the Palestinian Authority appears to have given up on direct negotiations, planning to go directly to the United Nations to seek official recognition of the State of Palestine within the '1967 borders' against the wishes of the Israeli government.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jan 16 - 02:00 PM

I said, "No decent democratic country holds Israel responsible for any atrocity or massacre."
That stands.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 23 Jan 16 - 02:51 PM

Keith, You have been shown to have little knowledge of this subject thus your knee jerk response to the "Redmond" report which does not and never has existed.

It has been clearly demonstrated to all that observe this thread that you have little, if anything, pertinent to contribute.

Jim Carroll caught you out, hook, line and sinker. Although Jim and I have crossed swords on other subjects on this one he has got you "banged to rights"

Could I politely suggest that you refrain from further comment.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jan 16 - 03:38 PM

"I said, "No decent democratic country holds Israel responsible for any atrocity or massacre."
That stands"
What "stands" Keith is that you have been presented with the running order of the Sabra Shatila massacre and Israel's facilitating it - you have no answer other than to scurry behind you "real democratic countries" gambit.
Israel has been several massacres throughout its existence.
Respected Jewish Historian, Benny Morris (look him up, if you don't know him ('m sure Mike does) wrote that "Jewish forces were responsible for 24 massacres during the war.[1] Aryeh Yizthaki attests to 10 major massacres with more than 50 victims each.[6] Palestinian researcher Salman Abu-Sitta records 33, half of them occurring during the civil war period.[6] Saleh Abdel Jawad has listed 68 villages where acts of indiscriminate killing of prisoners, and civilians took place, where no threat was posed to Yishuv or Israeli soldiers.[7]"
Apart from these, there were the massacres carried out by Israeli Freedom fighters hurling grenades into occupied homes - massacres one and all.
The Israeli soldiers who were interviewed during the Six day war described the massacres of Arab prisoners of war, followed by the massacres of those selected to bury them - you claimed to have seen the programme, so you are fully aware of this.
Sabra/Shatila is down to Israel - don't need your "real democratic countries" - the facts (and your silence) speak for themselves.
Bombing occupied schools, hospitals, old peoples centres and occupied homes, as happened in 20114 constitute massacres - the fact that Israel is moving heaven and earth to not be tried for these massacres doesn't make them any less massacres.
I'm sure you'll put all these down to "Anti-Israeli lies - not a problem for the rest of us - we're well used to it.
Must go - Casualty starts soon - hope that doesn't turn out to be yet another massacre!!
G'night all!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Jan 16 - 05:20 PM

"Jim Carroll caught you out, hook, line and sinker. Although Jim and I have crossed swords on other subjects on this one he has got you "banged to rights"

Could I politely suggest that you refrain from further comment."

Raggy if being caught out hook-line-and-sinker constitutes grounds for refraining from further comment - you lot should have fallen silent years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Jan 16 - 05:53 PM

Anything else to contribute terrichocolate .......................... no thought not. At least you haven't mentioned compass points or malt whiskey.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Jan 16 - 01:21 AM

This thread is descending to personal abuse rather than rational dispute. Not that that's anything new...!

In which connection, as it concerns me personally: it's next morning; so good morning, Jim. I hate to appear to nag, but you still haven't 'got back' to me (0147pm) with answers to any of the IMO pertinent questions I put to you re your denunciations in response to my post of yesterday 1009 am. If you don't reply soon, we shall have forgotten the exchange altogether & the moment will have passed.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jan 16 - 04:58 AM

Keith, You have been shown to have little knowledge of this subject thus your knee jerk response to the "Redmond" report which does not and never has existed.

It does exist. Jim just used the wrong name. I referred to the accurate quote he made from the actual report.

What "stands" Keith is that you have been presented with the running order of the Sabra Shatila massacre and Israel's facilitating it - you have no answer other than to scurry behind you "real democratic countries" gambit.

Yes I have.
I put Israel's version of events as you put the versions of its enemies.

Six Day War. In all wars war crimes are committed at individual level.
I defend no war crime.

don't need your "real democratic countries" - the facts (and your silence) speak for themselves.

The facts are disputed. Governments have access to the facts behind the propaganda.

as happened in 20114 constitute massacres
Disputed.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 24 Jan 16 - 05:23 AM

Ha Ha Ha, unbelievable. The Redmond report which YOU cited does in YOUR post does not exist. Jim Carroll invented it. If you had known it was called something else why did you not pull him up. You have been caught out and shown to have little knowledge of this subject.

Before you shout I didn't quote it can I remind you (and others) of your post of 22 Jan: "It leaves it open as directly or indirectly responsible. It does not state that they were directly responsible, and Israel accepts indirect responsibility"

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jan 16 - 05:37 AM

"you lot should have fallen silent years ago."
Give it a rest Terrytoon - say something on the subject or leave those who wish to to do so - we're all aware of your ability to change people's minds.
" I hate to appear to nag, but you still haven't 'got back' to me "
Sorry Mike - just got up
Wonder if it' better to take what I have to say off line - up to you.
"as happened in 20114 constitute massacres
Disputed."
Unfortune#ately not - the Israelis would rather close down the international court than allow their actions to be examined.
"Six Day War. In all wars war crimes are committed at individual level."
And were buried by the authorities who actually suppressed the interviews - the perpetrators were treated as heroes
All atrocities are committed by individuals - these were sanctioned by the State.
"The facts are disputed. Governments have access to the facts behind the propaganda"
The facts are that the "facts" take second place to economic and political interests every time - judging these matters on the, non-action and silence of the State and politicians (not one of them has come out and openly defended Israel - they have simply said nothing on the individual examples of atrocities) is insane - we saw the result of the murder and destruction daily - if it
was justified we have a right to know on what grounds.
Sometime this year, the leading "democracy" 'The Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave' may well be governed by the dream team of Donald Trump and Sara Palin - look forward to that one!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jan 16 - 08:03 AM

Rag,
The Redmond report which YOU cited does in YOUR post does not exist. Jim Carroll invented it.

No. He lied about inventing it. He just got the name wrong.
I quoted him from an earlier thread (Date: 22 Mar 14 - 08:45 AM) where he had used both right and wrong names for the report.
The quote was from the MacBride Report. He just sometimes called it Redmond.

Jim, as you say, some decent democratic countries speak out against the settlement policy, but none do against massacres and atrocities because there are none.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 24 Jan 16 - 08:11 AM

Jim's act was quite deliberate to show how little you had read or knew about the subject. As I said earlier he got you "bang to rights"

I'm sure I am not the only person much amused by that or your floundering now. Keep digging Keith, I've got a quiet day today and could do with a laugh.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jan 16 - 09:04 AM

Do you have anything useful to add to the discussion Raggytash or are you here just to make personal attacks?

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jan 16 - 09:04 AM

"He just got the name wrong."
How do yoy know this Keith?
The truth is, I have become very tired of your claims of having read something you obviously haven't - you complain about postings being "too long" yet you claim you can work your way through some of the most complicated books I have ever read on subjects that interest me.
Time after time you have been given links you don't obviously read, yet claim you have.
I thought I'd put it to the test.
I invented a name for a report we'd discussed which you claim to be aware of - you used the name I gave you to claim that what the author had written didn't condemn the Israelis role in the massacre.
Point made, I think - you had not even read the links you were given to what Redmond(sic)MacBride said about the massacre, yet you continued to present a distorted account of it to make your case.
You claim that the massacres during the Six Day Waar were individual actions - how do you know?
THat was never stated on the programme - on the contrary - it was described as being carried out on the orders of officers who first instructed that the prisoners be shot, then that graves should be dug by remaining prisoners, than that those who dug the graves should be shot - nothing "individual" about soldiers being ordered to shoot prisoners.
You'd really would find life much easier if you didn't keep making things up.
"but none do against massacres and atrocities because there are none."
You've just been given a list off them from the writings of one of the foremost Israeli historians - was he making them up?
You seemed to backed away from Sabra/Shatila - doesn't that count as a massacre
WE saw what happened in 2014 - all imagined?
You have never responded to the fact that Israel is prepared to destroy the International Criminal Court in order not to appear before it.
You seem to adopt the attitude that the only unbiased people on the planet are those politicians who support Israel - a bit of a contradiction in terms, doncha think?
Do you really believe that The united Nations and all the Human Rights Groups are not to be trusted and the only ones to believe are politicians - it would be superb to be able to add this to your list of profound statements
You really have painted yourself into a corner here.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jan 16 - 09:06 AM

Jim's act was quite deliberate to show how little you had read or knew about the subject.

Ridiculous.
He got the name of the report wrong two years ago.
The quote was genuine, but by Macbride not Redmond.

The chump decided to lie to try and save face.
He made up nothing.
He just got a name wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 24 Jan 16 - 09:14 AM

If that is the case Keith why didn't you put him right back in March 2014. Keep floundering, like I said I'm a bit bored today.

BTW Guest, yes you are quite correct but it is funny to watch Keith acting like a fish on a line.

As for the actual debate both the links provided by Keith and by Jim should tell you enough about this particular incident to allow you to make up your own mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jan 16 - 09:17 AM

Jim,
"He just got the name wrong."
How do yoy know this Keith?

Because you attributed the same quote to two different names in old threads.

You claim that the massacres during the Six Day Waar were individual actions - how do you know?

Because I saw the same programme you did and have kept it for reference.

You've just been given a list off them from the writings of one of the foremost Israeli historians - was he making them up?

Others dispute them.

You seemed to backed away from Sabra/Shatila - doesn't that count as a massacre

Of course it was. It was committed by a local Arab militia.

WE saw what happened in 2014 - all imagined?

Of course it happened, but the war crimes were committed by Hamas.
Israel complied with international law.

You have never responded to the fact that Israel is prepared to destroy the International Criminal Court in order not to appear before it.

Is that a fact?

You seem to adopt the attitude that the only unbiased people on the planet are those politicians who support Israel

They do not support Israel on everything. Settlements for instance.
Massacres and atrocities are just propaganda. You only ever look at one side and object when anyone puts Israel's case.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jan 16 - 09:21 AM

If that is the case Keith why didn't you put him right back in March 2014. Keep floundering, like I said I'm a bit bored today.

"If it was the case.."

It was the case. Look it up. You have the date.
I let him call it what he wanted and just referred to the content.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 24 Jan 16 - 09:31 AM

Yes of course you did Keith, you let pass an opportunity to put one over on Jim, yes of course you let it go. Ha Ha brilliant, please keep it up. Between you and the cricket it's turning into quite an interesting day.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jan 16 - 09:39 AM

More confusions by Jim.

Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 20 May 13 - 01:44 PM

" The UN MacBride Commission formed after the Sabra and Shatila massacre concluded that Israel had committed genocide and war crimes."

Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 31 Jul 14 - 03:23 AM

"Israel's own report on Sabra/Shatila found itself indirectly responsible, as similar Israeli enquiries will find the present atrocities well withing international law, no doubt!
The independent Redmond enquiry found otherwise, but Israel avoided prosecution through political and economic clout and influence."

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 24 Jan 16 - 09:43 AM

Still on the line Keith, keep it up there's a good lad. South Africa are just starting their second innings.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jan 16 - 09:50 AM

Keith - I have indeed made the mistake in the past, on several occasions - which I why I deliberately chose the this time.
Throughout this thread I have carefully check every single statement I made to give you people no reason to trip me upon errors - the MacBride report was no different - I checked and rechecked what the report said and was fully aware who produced it - I've actually compiled a list of all the statements I've used in the Sabra/Shatila arguments for future use.
I deliberately overused it on this thread (14 times) before I corrected it - (worked like a charm - couldn't have hoped for a better result) - you responded to it "authoritatively" on 5 occasions.
Had it been a mistake it wouldn't have been a problem saying so - I've never seen the point in denying mistakes in a discussion, certainly none as trivial as this - unlike you, who yet to admit to one.
I asked a question - Do you really believe that The united Nations and all the Human Rights Groups are not to be trusted and the only ones to believe are politicians
"Because I saw the same programme you did and have kept it for reference."
Can you give us the exact statement - the programme is still on line?
"Others dispute them"
Disputes Benny Morris - now that is interesting - can you link us to them please?
"Of course it was. It was committed by a local Arab militia."
And was facilitated by the Israeli army - you heaven't even bothered to respond too the facts of the massacre - perhaps you might care to do so now
"Of course it happened, but the war crimes were committed by Hamas.Israel complied with international law."
Do you have a hot-line to the U.N. - their enquiry is still underway, no announcement has ever been made and Israel is still struggling to keep it out of the Court - how on earth do you know when the rest of the world has no idea?
"Massacres and atrocities are just propaganda"
A matter of recorded history Keith - even by Jewish historians
(Perhaps you are only talking about living historians or those writing over the last 20 minutes?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jan 16 - 10:07 AM

Jim, the last time you correctly named the report was 20 May 13 - 01:44 PM.
After that you always called it Redmond until someone asked you for a link to it here.

I just responded to the accurate quote, ignoring the report name.

And was facilitated by the Israeli army - you heaven't even bothered to respond too the facts of the massacre

Not on this thread, but many, many times before.
Put up any fact for response you like, but one at a time please.

Re 2014, I have explained how the law applies to the conflict.
I agree there are differing views, but you are equally adamant that they will be found guilty.
I am just putting Israel's version. Why do you object to both sides being heard?

A matter of recorded history Keith - even by Jewish historians
Disputed.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 24 Jan 16 - 10:17 AM

Wriggle, wriggle Keith. (par for the course) South Africa 22 for 1.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jan 16 - 10:29 AM

Israel avoided prosecution through political and economic clout and influence.

Ah yes, the old antisemitic canard rears it's ugly head.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jan 16 - 10:47 AM

"I just responded to the accurate quote, ignoring the report name."
Twice actually - just checked
If you care to look, I pointedly asked you had you read "the Redmond Report" immediately prior to 'Guest' asking me for the link.
As I said - it doesn't matter - point made - "Wriggle, wriggle " as the man said.
You are now using this inconsequential point to avoid the real questions I put to you
1   Quotes from the Six Days war programme?
2   Who disputes Benny Morris?
3   Response to Sabra/Shatila facts
4   How do you know the 2014 massacres weren't massacres if nobody else does?
But first:
5   Do you really believe that The united Nations and all the Human Rights Groups are not to be trusted and the only ones to believe are politicians
"Put up any fact for response you like, but one at a time please."
Are you ****** serious??? - a man who reads tomes of 1000 pages can only handle facts one at a time!!
You have been given the exact facts - all carefully linked and verified - respond to them in any way you wish.
You really do have to be joking!!
The facts were not put up for you - you are not interested in facts.
They were put up for the record here - the only way you come into any of this is to expose you for the dishonest massacre denier that you are.
You don't bother to respond , fine by me - double whammy - they stand as what they are - facts, and you are exposed for what you are - must be my birthday again!!
When will you get it into your head that your ongoing behaviour has excluded you from ever being taken seriously again?
Jim Carroll