BS: Norway Leads The Way

Subject: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 20 Mar 16 - 06:17 AM

A short but interesting article regarding belief, or not, in a god.

None Belief

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Jack Campin
Date: 20 Mar 16 - 06:31 AM

Meanwhile Icelanders are converting on masse to the worship of ancient Sumerian gods:

Zuism and taxes

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Jack Campin
Date: 20 Mar 16 - 07:10 AM

Meanwhile in Scotland, parents are more likely to name their baby after a Game of Thrones character than after the Virgin Mary:

http://www.britishbabynames.com/blog/top-names-in-scotland/

The only good news for religion in that list is that Joseph, Noah amd Muhammad are doing okay.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 20 Mar 16 - 07:12 AM

I was hoping this thread was going to be about men's downhill slalom.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Mar 16 - 07:20 AM

If you asked me whether I believed in God, I'd tell you that you were asking the wrong question.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Mar 16 - 07:53 AM

Another way to go is diversity.
For example I am Zoroastrian my wife worships Diane and I made my son who was on line too much, Amish.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: keberoxu
Date: 20 Mar 16 - 08:57 AM

How do you make somebody Amish if you aren't Amish yourself!

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 20 Mar 16 - 09:05 AM

Well ........... you try to make them an AM and if you get close they will be AMish

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: GUEST,#
Date: 20 Mar 16 - 09:08 AM

". . . I made my son who was on line too much, Amish."

Good one, Donuel.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Mar 16 - 09:45 AM

You've been listening to too much Clue, Raggytash. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 20 Mar 16 - 09:57 AM

Clue ?

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Mar 16 - 12:01 PM

Sorry I Haven't A Clue. Lots of "-ish" gags on there in recent times.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Mar 16 - 12:31 PM

To ask people if they "believe in a God" is like asking them to pick up their last thought, carry it across the room, weigh it, and tie a piece of string around it.

There's no point in even answering such a question, if you intend to give it any serious thought before you answer. If you just want to deal in your instant, superficial reactions to conventional mental symbols and familiar words, however, you can of course then answer it...but that doesn't mean your answer will really mean much. It will just indicate your individual reaction to a vague and common symbol of something most people don't think about much.

It's like asking a person if Coke is "the real thing"! :) It is if you think it is. It isn't if you don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 20 Mar 16 - 03:44 PM

Oh I don't know...


No.


Didn't hurt. No thunderbolts

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 20 Mar 16 - 03:55 PM

I suppose they could have couched the question in lots of qualifiers, but I suspect most people have a pretty good idea of what is being asked , at least in the western world.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Mar 16 - 05:25 PM

Steve - 0720 am

What is the right question?

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Mar 16 - 05:35 PM

A question that an answer is possible for. I neither believe in God nor don't believe in God. Belief is for fools who are suckered in by people who tell you how virtuous it is to believe without seeing. The rational among us rely on evidence and reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Mar 16 - 07:37 PM

Yes....we rely on evidence, observation, and reason, and we therefore believe in whatever is clearly confirmed by our own experience....and all the rest is hypothetical, therefore it is neither believed...or not believed...it is simply considered as a possibility. Since no one here can either prove or disprove that "God" exists (whatever they think that means)...it's not a case of believing that God exists or believing that God doesn't exist, it's a case of wondering if if might be so. Therefore the question "Do you believe that God exists?" is pointless, since there simply is no way of either proving or disproving the proposition. It remains nothing but a matter of opinion or emotional preference. It's subjective...like believing you're in love with someone, for example...and how you define "being in love" is a totally unique experience of your own that no one else is equipped to prove or disprove one way or the other. Also, the fact that a majority of people in a nation think something is so is not necessarily any kind of proof that it is so...regardless of whether the majority say they "believe in God" or say that they do not "believe in God". Again, it's just their majority opinion. If this makes you happy, because they see it your way...well, whoopee! :) Fools and wise men alike all delight in other people seeing things their way, but they can all still be wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Mar 16 - 08:18 PM

I believe in electric guitars, breasts, and fannies [UK version]...

As far as I'm concerned they definitely exist.

Not sure I'd go as far as saying I worship them... but.. they are pretty much amongst the best things in life.

I settled into this belief system after many years as a student of politics, culture, moral philosophy, concepts of belief, and other very clever stuff..

I even got a year or so into an MA before abandoning it
in the realisation that a life devoted to these simple esssential beliefs would be more rewarding and harmonious...😜

.. and that was 3 decades ago.....

I quite like the look of Norway from what I've seen of it on the telly....

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Mar 16 - 08:29 PM

Well I don't "believe" what my experience tells me. I need more than that. Also, I have no interest whatsoever in proving or disproving anything. If you tell me something that I don't see as self-evident, I want evidence. It's a really simple approach.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 21 Mar 16 - 02:35 AM

Yeah but in Norway, you have to buy wines and spirits from government owned outlets, a bit like back in the '80s when I used to go on business "behind the iron curtain." Norway had never been there but they picked that idea up..

Naw, I've got family there. When we visited last, I offered to cook one day, popped down the supermarket and as I was cooking a fish pie for eight people, it occurred to me that I had spent £130.00 on four cod fillets, ditto smoked haddock, half as much salmon and a handful of prawns. It further occurred to me, from talking to the chef at a restaurant in Capetown the previous year that Norway nets so much fish they export tons of the stuff to South Africa. Taking the piss...

Glad to see you note fannies in the UK sense. Can't have our resident homophobe hating you too.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 21 Mar 16 - 09:07 AM

On the other thread Steve qualified his not knowing, when I questioned it, by saying he was 99.9 etc sure he don't exist. Here , he does not qualify that he almost certainly and conclusively rejects a belief in a God.    He further claims that believing is against reason and evidence,   However, the Christian creationist position has nothing in it that opposes observational science , apart from the miraculous which is an addition to how the world normally works and not a denial of it.   Steves belief system however, necessitates believing things that according to observationaly testable science cannot happen unless there is SOMEONE to make it happen. Not only so, but devotion to that belief system causes him to reject the occams razor like conclusions of science that don't tally with that belief system.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 21 Mar 16 - 10:03 AM

Miracles are an addition?

Anything that can't be explained by a scientific approach is make believe. If it is used to impress people it is no more than a mere lie.

Of course your bible could be true. So could Lord of the Rings, Game of Thrones, Asimov's Foundation and Harry Potter. Ron Weasley's flying Ford Anglia and the prophet's flying carpet have more in common than just levitation...

The odds are similar too...

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Mar 16 - 10:49 AM

the Christian creationist position has nothing in it that opposes observational science

Absolutely and totally untrue. Unless, once again, you don't have the faintest idea what "science" is.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Mar 16 - 02:27 PM

There are many things between heaven and earth which cannot be explained by science.

I have experienced telepathy(verified) several times. Science does not acknowledge mental telepathy.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 21 Mar 16 - 03:37 PM

I too seem to have experienced what some may call Telepathy.

I have a theory to possibly explain it.

Prior to humans being able to communicate verbally or by the written word we must have been able to communicate in some form.

If we had an ability to communicate by telepathy we would no longer need that ability once we had developed language.

So once we had learned to communicate verbally we lost the ability to communicate telepathically.

Evolution in action perhaps.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Mar 16 - 03:45 PM

Telepathy - is it WiFi or Bluetooth ?

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Mr Red
Date: 21 Mar 16 - 03:51 PM

If you want belief and religion, just mention Brexit. Then you'll see reason departing and incantation creeping in to its place.
Which by a weird set of logic brings us back to Norway. Sure to be quoted in that context.

And telepathy is a myth. But you knew I was going to say that.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Mar 16 - 04:24 PM

Mr Red...:0)...nice.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Mar 16 - 05:38 PM

Nothing is impossible. Not even God and telepathy. But without evidence I have time for neither. If anyone here thinks they have evidence for telepathy, let's be having it.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Mar 16 - 05:58 PM

I have experienced telepathy(verified)

By whom or by what?

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Mar 16 - 06:41 PM

If he's had his telepathy scientifically verified, Greg, he'll be the first human ever to have had that done. I'll do you a favour, akenaton, and let you know where the bar is set. We want to hear of properly conducted experiments, with controls of course, that have been carried out by trained scientists, with independent observers in this case I should think, which have been peer-reviewed, and, most importantly, which we can replicate to give similar results to the ones you claim. Fire away. We're all ears. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Mar 16 - 10:07 PM

Nothing is impossible.

Lately, finding an intelligent Republican comes close, Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Mar 16 - 10:17 PM

Or an honest Tory. :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Mar 16 - 10:59 PM

I always felt uncomfortable when I heard of Christian groups talking of "winning souls for Christ." To me, it never felt like that was what it was all about.

So, today I see a thread on Mudcat that's more-or-less about "winning souls for atheism."

That shouldn't be what it's all about, either - but the Usual Suspects will most certainly do their little dance and disagree.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 22 Mar 16 - 03:07 AM

Again Joe, you are confusing what you see as "alternative" with simple "it doesn't explain anything and offers even less." Most people with religious conviction think lack of religious creed is a creed in itself, a replacement.

I for one don't need to find something to serve as proxy for my lack of interest in stamp collecting but I'm sure philatelists would say "what isn't there to enjoy?"

Telepathy does have a scientific base by the way. (Or at least a plausible explanation derived from trials.) A combination of suggestion, coincidence, shared reasoning and presumption. Medical students often have a paper to write on the subject, (combined with certainty with no apparent cause,) showing the "mind over matter" power of the brain. As well as the foundation study of psychology, it is valuable in learning how to understand where patients are coming from when certainty defies reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Mar 16 - 03:31 AM

Another one for God.

"Disorders Center at Newton Wellesley Hospital in Boston, Mass., explains.
The questions, "Why do we dream?" or "What is the function of dreaming?" are easy to ask but very difficult to answer. The most honest answer is that we do not yet know the function or functions of dreaming."

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 22 Mar 16 - 04:33 AM

Except we know it is internal to neuro stimuli, so external make believe such as "God" doesn't enter into it.

Mind you, both dreaming and God are examples of enthusiastic neuro activity, but Newton Wellesley is a recognised concern, it's people often publishing in New England Journal of Medicine, BMJ, Lancet etc, so I very much doubt God as a variable enters into their hypothesis or outcome. If it did, it means they have shown evidence for a God as more than imagination, which would be a miracle in itself...

Ascribing the unknown to God is something peasants used to do before education invoked reason. Nowadays there tends to be one in every village

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Mar 16 - 04:33 AM

Why do we dream ?

Because it's the one place the wife can't catch us.

Unless the dream is about the wife turning up and catching us.

Then that'd be a nightmare.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: GUEST,cosmicpunkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Mar 16 - 05:08 AM

... and even if it could be imagined that at a sub atomic level, dreams are a phenomena of the individual brain tapping into a 'collective conciousness' beyond time and space....
why would that explanation require a deity as a foundation ???? 😕


pass the mushroomz.... I'll just have 30 this time....

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: GUEST,trippypunkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Mar 16 - 05:25 AM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4692359.stm

Dr Russell Newcombe, senior lecturer in drug use and addiction at Liverpool John Moores University:

"There has always been an underlying interest in alternative experiences and states of consciousness but that has risen a lot more in the past 10 years or so," he says.

"It goes with that whole section of our youth culture today which is interested in getting experiences, travelling the world and doing risky sports.

"On the other side of the coin there is a need for mystical and spiritual experiences to offset people's secular lives."

The effects, and drawbacks such as paranoia, vary but when a trip is particularly intense, users report a loss of ego or a renewed sense of their place in the universe."

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: GUEST,tribalshamanpunkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Mar 16 - 05:29 AM

"With effects like this it's unsurprising that magic mushrooms are linked to ancient religious ceremonies"...... 😜

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Mar 16 - 05:39 AM

All very amusing I'm sure :0(, but my point was to refute the contention that "Science" can explain everything about the human psyche

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Mar 16 - 07:17 AM

"All very amusing I'm sure :0(, but my point was to refute the contention that "Science" can explain everything about the human psyche"

"Science" may not be able to, but science can, potentially. The quest of science is to explain natural phenomena and it is unscientific to refute the possibility of any aspect of that.

You seem to be posting like mad this morning but are remaining silent on my request for evidence of your verified telepathic experience. Cat got your tongue?

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Mar 16 - 08:40 AM

Steve, 've already described the experiences on this forum, and have no wish to duplicate them, suffice to say that they definitely did happen, no one could convince me that there was any chance of them being coincidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Mar 16 - 08:52 AM

odd that. I just tried to convince you by telepathy, and you didn't pick up on it ?????

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Mar 16 - 10:05 AM

Suffice to say that they almost certainly didn't and that you were deluded. OK, don't bother reproducing them. I won't bother searching the forum for them either. Just like I don't know whether there's a God, I don't know whether there's telepathy. As with God, I want evidence. Not one single case of alleged telepathy has ever been scientifically verified. Again, please note the careful use of "scientifically" there.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 22 Mar 16 - 11:34 AM

Just think. If telepathy was anything other than irrational nonsense, those claiming it could look into the minds of others and see how they are really perceived.

Proof if ever you need it that ignorance is bliss.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Mar 16 - 02:03 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 20 Mar 16 - 07:20 AM

If you asked me whether I believed in God, I'd tell you that you were asking the wrong question.
But you appear to believe in the spirit of goodness, does it matter whether you are a humanist or a quaker?
what matters is that the spirit of evil as personified by edward heath is defeated, there are a number of unexplained disappearances of young boys from his yacht.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Mar 16 - 02:10 PM

BLISHED: 23:07 GMT, 5 August 2015 | UPDATED: 16:31 GMT, 6 August 2015
   
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Former prime minister: Two more police forces today revealed they had received abuse allegations against Sir Edward Heath (pictured)
+8
Former prime minister: Two more police forces today revealed they had received abuse allegations against Sir Edward Heath (pictured)
Two more police forces today revealed they had received abuse allegations against former prime minister Sir Edward Heath, taking the total to seven.
Gloucestershire Police has spoken to an alleged victim as it emerged a national police probe into child abuse allegations against the former premier is to be launched within days.
Meanwhile Thames Valley Police also said today said it is investigating information the force has received regarding Sir Edward.
The announcements come after a police appeal over alleged activities of the former prime minister prompted 'a number of calls' to detectives.
A Gloucestershire Police spokesman said the force had referred the matter to Operation Hydrant, which coordinates multiple historical child sexual abuse investigations across the country.
Forces in Wiltshire, London, Kent, Jersey and Hampshire are already looking into abuse allegations linked to Sir Edward – and others, such as the Police Service of Northern Ireland, are expected to examine claims against the Tory politician, who died aged 89 in 2005.
North Yorkshire Police detectives today started examining Sir Edward Heath's relationship with Jimmy Savile and his paedophile friend Peter Jaconelli, who was known as 'King Cornet'.
Senior officers now want a dedicated force to coordinate a national inquiry. Never before has an ex-PM been the subject of such an investigation.
Wiltshire Police, which on Monday appealed for potential victims to come forward, said it continued to receive a 'number of calls' yesterday.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3186503/New-probe-Ted-Heath-sex-claims-nationwide-Investigation-launch-days-detectives-continue-receive-number-calls-allegations-against-former-Prime-Minister.html#ixzz43emDZPM9
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 22 Mar 16 - 02:14 PM

Except that was investigated and found to be bollocks.

How would you like it if I started a rumour that Dick Miles moved to Ireland to escape prosecution? I don't hold a candle for the late Ted Heath but your posts are below contempt Dick.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 22 Mar 16 - 05:02 PM

Newcombe says, in part:
"On the other side of the coin there is a need for mystical and spiritual experiences to offset people's secular lives."

To say "there is a need", in the context of his article, implies that it's a universal feeling of need, etc. I'll grant that some people may feel such a need, but it's hardly universal. He's blandly assuming a "fact" which serves his position as a basis for his argument, but doesn't achieve the status he needs.

And it's not clear what it means to "offset people's secular lives."

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Mar 16 - 05:03 PM

I would not be worried about anything you posted on this forum, because no one takes you seriously.
Heath has been investigated by his establishment friends, that means nothing.
Geoffrey Dickens a backbench tory mp presented a dossier to Leon Brittain on paedophiles, somehow that got lost, funny old game isnt it musket?
are you going to deny that Brittain lost important files on paedophiles.
A secret file which is said to contain the names of paedophiles with links to the British establishment and which is rumoured to be locked away in archives at the University of Oxford's Bodleian Library, could be made public as part of the Government's child abuse inquiry.

Inquiry panel members Barbara Hearn and Sharon Evans, along with Ben Emmerson QC, counsel to the inquiry, assured campaigners at their meeting last week – shortly before Fiona Woolf announced she would be the second person to resign as chair – that they would have top-level security clearance and access to restricted or closed files.

The whereabouts of the "Dickens Dossier", containing allegations of paedophiles linked to the British establishment and compiled by former Conservative MP Geoffrey Dickens, is unknown. It went missing after the politician handed it to the then Home Secretary, Leon Brittan, in 1984, as are more than 100 documents concerning child abuse allegations that had been held by the Home Office. It is rumoured it may be in the Barbara Castle archives within the University of Oxford's Bodleian Library.

Former Conservative MP Geoffrey Dickens (Getty)
Ian Pace, who in 2013 organised a petition of musicians calling for a public inquiry into abuse in specialist music schools, and one of 21 campaigners at Friday's meeting chaired by Home Office official Usha Choli, asked whether the panel would have access to closed archives such as those belonging to the former Labour cabinet minister under Harold Wilson.

"The answer seemed to be yes," said Mr Pace. "We were told the panel's security clearance would enable them to access things like intelligence files and closed archives such as a lot of material contained within the Barbara Castle archives where some people suspect she may have kept a copy of the dossier."

At least three people have tried unsuccessfully to access the Castle files to see if it contains the Dickens Dossier, but found a lot of the material closed. Some papers with restricted access include diary entries and correspondence with family members. All of her correspondence with the former Labour Home Secretary Jack Straw between October 1981 and February 1999 is also marked "closed" on the library's database, along with a letter she wrote to Neil Kinnock in December 1999.

pg-14-dickens-dossier-2-getty.jpg
Barbara Castle, pictured in 1974 (Getty Images)
Mr Pace said: "I do know of separate occasions where people went after a whole range of material where the Dickens Dossier was likely to be, but could not see any of it."

The Independent on Sunday revealed at the weekend that the inquiry panel will have "developed vetting" – top-level clearance allowing them access to intelligence files and information.

Home Secretary Theresa May told the Commons on Monday that the Government was "in the process of working out the protocol" to ensure that access is possible "between all agencies and the inquiry, so that no stone is left unturned".

Due to the number of ongoing cases and historical sex abuse trials taking place in the coming months, campaigners have received assurances from the panel that witnesses could give evidence about people already on trial, with proceedings therefore sub judice.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Mar 16 - 05:26 PM

Perhaps someone could give me a reasonably precise idea of what a "mystical" experience is. Come to think of it, and what "spiritual" means. When Shimrod's post appeared this morning, Beethoven's Heiliger Dankgesang from his A minor quartet came on Radio 3. That shut me up for a quarter of an hour. I wonder whether I was having a spiritual experience. I didn't think Godly thoughts so maybe it didn't count. I'll put it down to a mere secular moment, shall I...

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 22 Mar 16 - 05:31 PM

You know, you can read more conspiracy theory nonsense than you thought possible if you learn how to google properly Dick.

I'm glad you don't take me seriously because at times you come over as a dangerous nutter.

Tell you what. Start by realising that a British PM can't go for a shit without at least two special branch police officers knowing how many sheets of bog roll they use. In case you forgot, paddies predate ISIS.

zzzz

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 22 Mar 16 - 08:33 PM

Dick, You come across as believing there was only ever one copy of the document. When I was a student, many years ago, at each stage of an essay or dissertation I took a copy or even several copies. The final piece was copied at least twice. One for the college, one for myself, sometimes one for my fellow students to dissect and criticise. Sometimes one for my parents so they could see what their son was up to.

I am sure if the "authorities" could stifle one copy other copies could easily be made available should somebody choose too.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Mar 16 - 03:05 AM

Musket and Raggytash IMO you are extremely naive, go on living in cloud cuckoo land you clearly want to believe that Saville and Harris are the only ones guilty, That Greville Janner and other high ranking members of the establishment should not be brought to trial.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 23 Mar 16 - 03:49 AM

Why don't you add some other things Dick? Perhaps all politicians around in the '70s are guilty of whatever newspapers are sensationalising?

Perhaps all performing artistes that were popular are guilty too? Well, that's you off the hook!

😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Mar 16 - 03:57 AM

What is very clear to me is that there few people who believe in the spirit of good ness, and more people who are evil, many politicians are evil people who abuse other people who exploit others and put in to practice evil policies that protect the very wealthy and are not good for many people in society.
Musket calls me a dangerous nutter, musket is a misguided fool, I do not go around abusing people or murdering people or implementing policies that protect the very wealthy.
I earn my living as a musician, and I give up a lot of my time to run a folk festival fastnetmaritime.com
if that constitutes being a dangerous nutter, then we need more dangerous nutters, meanwhile people are causing violence, innocent people are the victims of murdering bombing sexually abusing raping, that is truly evil, of course they are not dangerous nutters are they , no dangerous nutters run folk festivals dont they Musket?, you need to cop on Musket.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 23 Mar 16 - 04:12 AM

You run a folk festival, Ted Heath used to pilot a yacht and be involved in performance of classical music.

Your point?

Saying many politicians are evil abusers just proves my point. Although I'll retract the word "dangerous" from "dangerous nutter" because you are not dangerous, just an old fool who is impressed by conspiracy theory. There is a lot of abuse going on in reality and police resources are better served by investigating it rather than chasing rainbows just because it sells newspaper copy.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Mar 16 - 04:26 AM

What is obvious to me is a lack of spirituality, a lack of either humanist or true christian values, its the epitome of Thatcherism, looking after number one believing that there is no such thing as society,
the very antithesis of Christian[ as originally advocated by jesus christ] and also humanist values.
the only difference between true christian values and humanist values is that humanists believe that people will be good to each other if they are reasoned to, and Christians believe that people should be good to each other by obeying certain commandments and rules.
The dangerous nutters are people like thatcher, trump, monsanto, edward heath, jimmy saville, greville janner, mao tse tung., MUGABE.
all people who cause or have caused damage to society or to other people in society, they are all power abusers and they get protected by their establishment friends, right now no one criticise the man who killed more people than anyone else, The man who invaded Tibet, Mao Tse Tung, because China still occupies Tibet and they dont want to upset trade with China,.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Mar 16 - 04:43 AM

So Norway leads the way in that a lot of people do not believe in God, so what, that doesnt surprise me at all, The whole world and our capitalist system appears to me to be spiritually bankrupt, but apparantly this makes me a dangerous nutter, a bit like jesus christ who the establishment crucified.
we need more people who try to point out the wrong doing and decadence of some of our politicians who are power abusers [ a proportion of them who are also sexual abusers] who administer the orders of the very wealthy.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Mar 16 - 05:28 AM

"So Norway leads the way in that a lot of people do not believe in God, so what, that doesnt surprise me at all, The whole world and our capitalist system appears to me to be spiritually bankrupt"

Are we really to think that these two statements are linked?

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Mar 16 - 10:27 AM

The nearest to a reasonable explanation of telepathy is that, under conditions of great stress or physical pain, the brain can transmit feelings/ alarm/ fear.
These transmissions can be focused on someone extremely close emotionally to the sender. Certainly that is what happened on the three occasions that I have experienced what I suppose to be mental telepathy.
I don't think it could ever be replicated under "scientific conditions".

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Mar 16 - 02:13 PM

The nearest to a reasonable explanation of telepathy is that, under conditions of great stress or physical pain, the brain can transmit feelings/ alarm/ fear.
These transmissions can be focused on someone extremely close emotionally to the sender. Certainly that is what happened on the three occasions that I have experienced what I suppose to be mental telepathy.
I don't think it could ever be replicated under "scientific conditions".

I don't want the nearest thing to a reasonable explanation. I want a reasonable explanation, or a hypothesis, even if it later proves to be wrong. The "explanation" you provide here is not an explanation at all. It is mere conjecture. Guesswork. A flight of the vulnerable imagination. Unsupportable. If it can't be replicated under scientific conditions then it hasn't, as you earlier informed us, been "verified" at all. I must say, I'm grievously disappointed. The game-changing scientific breakthrough you led us to expect turns out to be the biggest damp squib since Adam were a lad. I shall assist you now by providing the null hypothesis, expressed in the immortal words of Jim Royle:




TELEPATHY MY ARSE!

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Mar 16 - 02:14 PM

Link don't work, Dave.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Mar 16 - 02:18 PM

I'll try again

Ake will probably enjoy this one more anyway...

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Mar 16 - 02:23 PM

Woo Hoo

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Mar 16 - 02:29 PM

Blimey Dave... something told me you had that on your mind.. must definitely be telepathy !!!!! 😜

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Mar 16 - 02:59 PM

Better WooHoos

Nearly...

And a different thread...

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Penny S.
Date: 24 Mar 16 - 04:22 PM

Steve, there is a serious problem with the experiences that some people have that appear to simulate what might be expected if there were such a thing as telepathy. (And I've had a few. And things that simulate precognition. Which could, if it made sense, explain telepathy, if it existed.) Since they almost always refer to things where extreme emotions are involved, there is no way they could be replicated in laboratory conditions. Even if there could be some way to make people feel so emotional that something could be "transmitted", that would not be allowable under most experimental protocols.

What does get through, if something is getting through, is usually very blurred and lacking in useful detail, and it would be much better to phone, text, email, or send a guy with a cleft stick. Which is, of course, why we have developed language instead of relying on slightly differentiated hoots which might distinguish between snakes, eagles and leopards. (I refer to work on monkeys.)

I shouldn't bother trying to persuade people who believe it happens that it doesn't. That won't work. If people believe they have experienced something which has subsequently been confirmed, they will go on doing so. Would you be convinced if someone wrote down what they thought they had "received" and posted it to themself, and kept it sealed until such time it was confirmed by another party, or events?

And what I have experienced on a very few occasions has been quite different from being with someone whose mind follows similar thought paths and who suddenly comes out with whatever it was that I have been thinking, even though to an outsider it would not obviously follow previous utterances.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 24 Mar 16 - 04:44 PM

Wot Musket said. (That's the academic Musket, not me.)

Telepathy has no basis in our present scientific understanding, indeed for it to exist, many well proven theories and principles in neuro workings would have to be discarded.

Coincidence, suggestion, mind over matter and the ability of the brain to protect us are the areas where we explore what people report as their telepathy.

Forgive me if I laugh at nutters, I have this problem with my outlook, I expect better of people who have an education.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Mar 16 - 06:54 PM

Well it's like believing in God. You needn't waste your time trying to persuade someone that there's probably no God and that they're deluded. People of a particular mindset see magic in ordinary coincidences and have a penchant for choosing the most improbable explanation possible for the ordinary things they see as mysteries. I live in a house in the middle of nowhere. There are noises going on all night. It'll be jackdaws, or the wind, or a lamb, or a blue tit crashing into the window, or a moth in the bedroom, or a brown owl, or a fox, or cats having a scrap. Or is it a ghost, a goblin, a fairy... When the ordinary is TOO ordinary for you, the normal might as well become the outlandish. It's OK to believe in telepathy. It simply makes you a harmless fool. All we can do is keep asking you for your evidence.

"Would you be convinced if someone wrote down what they thought they had "received" and posted it to themself, and kept it sealed until such time it was confirmed by another party, or events?"

At 6.41pm on 21 March I set out the conditions I need in order to be convinced. I could add in this case that I'd also need to eliminate the potential for fraud.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Mar 16 - 07:24 PM

Steve you do not appear to understand the concept of God,as I understand the word GOD. it is about the spirit of goodness.
it is possible to believe in God, without accepting the creationist theory.
other people may not agree with that, that is their problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Mar 16 - 09:29 PM

It's also possible to possess the spirit of goodness (whatever the "spirit" part of that means, but I'm biting) without bolting God on to it. In fact, I suspect that being good without a Godly crutch is more virtuous than needing him on board in order to make you good. Anyway, there are good and bad Godsquadders and there are good and bad heathens, so hey ho.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 02:00 AM

being virtuous is not the reason why some christians try to be kind to others.
Buddhist beliefs


Religious beliefs are important in Buddhism, but its central doctrines aren't necessarily the same as those of other world religions. Depending on the sect, Buddhist beliefs may include gods, ancestors, and the afterlife, but the most important Buddhist beliefs about suffering and how to escape it.

The Buddha himself was called the "Enlightened One." After he became enlightened, he taught that the way to eliminate suffering begins with understanding the true nature of the world.

However, the Buddha considered knowledge important only insofar as it remains practical. He rejected speculation about such matters as God, the nature of the universe, and the afterlife, urging his followers to focus instead on the Four Noble Truths by which they can free themselves from suffering.

Basic Points of Buddhism

In the 2,500 years since the Buddha's enlightenment, Buddhism has spread over many countries, split into numerous sects, and adopted a wide variety of beliefs, practices, rituals and customs. However, an essential unity centered around the teachings of the Buddha underlies these differences.

Is Buddhism Atheistic?

One general doctrine agreed upon by Buddhists is: "We do not believe that this world is created and ruled by a God." However, disbelief in a creator God does not mean that Buddhism is atheistic.

Buddhas and Deities

In Mahayana Buddhism, the universe is populated with celestial buddhas, bodhisattvas, and deities that assist and inspire the Buddhist practitioner. Among the most popular are Kuan Yin, the Medicine Buddha, the Laughing Buddha and the Green and White Taras. These and other fascinating figures are explored in this section.

Human Nature

In Hinduism, the soul, or atman, is an eternally existing spiritual substance or being and the abiding self that moves from one body to the next at rebirth. The Buddha rejected this concept.

Purpose of Life

In Buddhism, the purpose of life is to end suffering. The Buddha taught that humans suffer because we continually strive after things that do not give lasting happiness.

Reincarnation and Afterlife

The Buddha said of death: Life is a journey. Death is a return to earth. The universe is like an inn. The passing years are like dust. Regard this phantom world As a star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, A flash of lightning in a summer cloud, A flickering lamp - a phantom - and a dream

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 02:03 AM

for it (telepathy) to exist, many well proven theories and principles in neuro workings would have to be discarded.

No they would not.

Telepathy has no basis in our present scientific understanding,

Consciousness itself has no basis in our present scientific understanding, so an obscure facet of consciousness that is not even under conscious control will obviously have to wait even longer.

One kind of telepathy is an established fact. Entangled particles can communicate their state one to the other.
It is not even limited by the speed of light! The communication is instant irrespective of distance.
It is an established fact, experimentally proven, but has no basis in our present scientific understanding. No-one has even a theory about how it is done.

Telepathy is considered a respectable subject for scientific research.
Describing people who accept its existence on the basis of compelling personal experience as "fools" marks you out as a fool.
Describing people who accept its existence on the basis of compelling personal experience as "nutters" to be "laughed" at marks you out as a ridiculous fool.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Musket
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 03:40 AM

Nutter

Ok. I'll qualify that.

Disingenuous nutter.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Musket
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 04:02 AM

Who is trying to get it classed as "respectable science?" The same nutters who call themselves creationist scientists?

My first comment you sneered at is impressed on medical students during myth dismissing lectures. My second statement stands as we understand the basis of neural networking if not the results. (Man invented and developed microprocessors but since introducing fuzzy logic could never explain in sequence how the binary leads to what you are staring at right now.)

Telepathy is explained, had been debunked and there is extensive research into utilising suggestion and mind over matter, but the transference of conscious thought? 😹😹😹

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 04:50 AM

Your statement, "for it (telepathy) to exist, many well proven theories and principles in neuro workings would have to be discarded." does not stand.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Musket
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 04:57 AM

By the way, entanglement and other quantum level phenomena are not exactly serious comparisons to the landlord of my local putting his fingers on his temples and murmuring "Pub to Musket. Are you feeling a great thirst?"

Today, I got up at 8.12am, looked out of the window then trotted to the bathroom. If anyone else had the exact same urge at the exact same time and carried out the exact same action, telepathy!!!

Oh, as you bring physics into it. Telepathy, if we must give it substance, is about cause and effect. Entanglement isn't. Time lag is not a feature, based on our current knowledge of course. 🤓

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 05:09 AM

Telepathy, if we must give it substance, is about cause and effect. Entanglement isn't.

Yes it is.
Establishing the state of one particle causes the state of the other to become fixed.
Information is transferred between them in some way that should be impossible, is impossible, has no basis in our present scientific understanding, but happens anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 05:12 AM

Does describing members of this forum as "nutters" not deserve the censors button?
I thought the medical profession were supposed to be more circumspect?
Penny is correct, my experiences involved great emotional trauma on the part of the "sender", who was also very close to me emotionally.
It culminated in a horrific fatality, and my "premonition" was conveyed to my wife minutes before the accident( which happened in his home at 2:00 am.)

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 07:01 AM

Establishing the state of a particle "causes"? I think you ought to read up on quantum mechanics as you keep spouting off about it. I especially commend the work of Heisenberg, where causality is dismissed as not relevant. Information transferred? Your grasp of physics seems up there with your take on WW1 and belief v believe.

If you discover the state of one, the other was ever thus, not caused to be. It's alright, even Einstein and Schroedinger took their time to come to terms with it. They had the disadvantage of an enquiring mind though, not one that gets its position from being impressed by books.

Oh, and take Akenhateon with you. He seems to be exhibiting his credentials for the title every time he hits Submit Message.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 07:45 AM

Back to the OP,

Just 37% of Norwegians said they actually believe in a god. What the survey doesn't tell us is how many of that 37% actually attend a place of worship on any regular basis.

I would surmise it is a smaller proportion, as it is in the UK.

Some would maintain that this as a massive step forward.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 08:12 AM

Several things. When it comes to consciousness we are attempting to define a phenomenon that we may think is a discrete entity but which we may not have characterised articulately. In other words, when we attempt to study it and explain it, we may be asking the wrong questions. Hard to put into words. However, once we have defined and explained it we will have done it using the laws of nature. The anatomy, the physiology and the biochemistry are all in place, ready for us to disentangle. There is no law of nature that can explain how a thought process that occurs in one person's brain can be transferred over a distance to another without the normal methods of communication. To say that it happens is mere conjecture. A flight of the imagination only. That's fine. But without evidence of any kind (which can't include claims made by individuals that can't be verified and which are notoriously subject to fraud), and with no physical laws that can be brought into play towards achieving an explanation, claims for telepathy are on exactly the same level as claims for the existence of God or the Loch Ness Monster. Beyond science, in other words, and deliberately made so. There hasn't been a single incidence of telepathy that has ever been verified by science. That's serious, Keith. Leave it to the wacky. A scientist proclaiming telepathy is disreputable.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 08:14 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Musket
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 09:47 AM

The problem is, they claim us all as believing in fairy tales. For instance, Church of England, Methodists, left footers etc add up baptism records. I don't know for certain whether I was, I'd have to ask my older brother. Certainly we kept my gran happy by having a christening bash for my two.

They include them in their delusional statistics. They also confuse attendances at weddings, christenings and funerals in their attendance statistics. Plus of course, most vicars lie on their returns to keep their parish and not lose it to a "team" vicar.

Sunday attendances are the best record. Less than 1% of people on average attend Christian churches, and that's their own figures...   I doubt Norway is any more delusional. They haven't had the history of monarchy using religion as a tool in the same way we did. We kept our empire and enjoyed the fruits of slavery because God said we are the anointed country so fill yer boots.

More people classed as Muslim, Sikh etc observe their faith, and mosques, temples etc get good attendances. Christian leaders just assume they are relevant because their granddads were.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 10:26 AM

I don't care if it can be verified by science.....it probably never will be due to the circumstances which seem to be required.

What I know is that it is real....and Steve I never lie on this forum and hardly ever in real life.

To people of faith I'm sure God is real, though again, science will never verify it......I am also sure they have seen God, just as I have experienced telepathy...and none of it is any of your business.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 10:43 AM

If you raise stuff on a public forum, you forfeit the right to say its none of our business. Obviously.

Several times I've reported here that I've seen ball lightning. I'm in no doubt about it myself, but I can't verify it. I've also said that I don't expect anyone to believe me. As a true phenomenon, ball lightning is controversial. There is evidence from videos and photos that fit the bill, much better evidence than for flying saucers or the Loch Ness Monster, and there are several plausible explanations that don't breach the laws of nature. But not quite evidence that absolutely nails it as true.

So why am I so much humbler about my ball lightning than you are about your telepathy, I ask myself. And when you say you're sure they've seen God, where's the evidence that makes you sure? You told us that your telepathic experience was verified. Your words. Who verified it, and how? Now listen here. I don't know whether you had a telepathic experience or not. But don't expect to confront intelligent people with a statement that you clearly can't support and tell us that it's true. If you haven't realised by now that you can't get away with that here, you haven't learned much.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Musket
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 12:57 PM

I got as far as the bit about not lying.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 02:13 PM

I don't particularly care what you think Steve.
I don't care what you consider verification, I had an experience which was real to me and the person who verified it.

I don't expect you to believe me, you are too closed minded for that, but I treat people of faith with respect, because I am aware of how limited scientific knowledge actually is and although I have no faith I allow people who do the courtesy of keeping my snout out of what is to them something sacred.
My telepathic experience is sacred to me and links me forever to someone who meant as much as life itself to me.

Go and play at being a scientist, I am no more impressed than I am of our spiteful Mudcat trinity.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 02:20 PM

"Does describing members of this forum as "nutters" not deserve the censors button?"

I thought we were all nutters to some extent for even coming to mudcat more than a few times after realising what a bunch of nutters we all are.....????? 😜

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 02:47 PM

I'm happy to be considered a fully-fledged Nudcat mutter.

Closed-minded, am I now? Didn't I just tell you that I don't know whether you had your telepathic experience or not? Don't I keep saying that I don't know whether there's a God or not? Dammit, I wouldn't even stake my life on there not being a Loch Ness Monster. How's all that closed-minded then?

Now I know that we're used to you spouting nonsense here. But you said, and I quote, "I have experienced telepathy(verified) several times." That came unprompted, out of the blue and you failed to follow it up with supporting statements. Nobody forced it out of you. That kind of ploy is generally designed to afford the perpetrator exaggerated importance. To make us pause to admire your heightened powers or something like that. Well, no incidence of telepathy has ever been verified by anyone. That much I know. There have, on the other hand, been plenty of fraudulent attempts, in line with things like seances, faked photographs of ghosts, false reports of "poltergeists" and the like. Plenty of people have been hoodwinked. So you proclaim your telepathic abilities on here and all I do is ask you for evidence. I'm not calling you a liar though I think there is a fair chance that you have not experienced telepathy. I don't care whether or not you care what I think. You say you're telepathic and I'm challenging that. There's a chance that you are but I think there's a far greater chance that you are deluded. That's the way it'll stay unless you produce the evidence you claim to possess.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: GUEST,mudcat
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 02:56 PM

Best not get even started on confronting those women who believe they can communicate telepathically with their cats...

Met more than my share in the 80s in certain post codes in Bristol.

The things a young bloke will put up with in hope of a shag.... 😼 💭

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 02:58 PM

Best not get even started on confronting those women who believe they can communicate telepathically with their cats...

Met more than my share in the 80s in certain post codes in Bristol.

The things a young bloke will put up with in hope of a shag.... 😼 💭

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 02:59 PM

... ????????.. I don't know how that happened either....????

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: GUEST,Tuesmith
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 03:21 PM

akenaton said:

"To people of faith I'm sure God is real, though again, science will never verify it......I am also sure they have seen God, just as I have experienced telepathy...and none of it is any of your business.!

Nonsense!

If anyone gives credibility to a Christian/Jewish/Muslim God, then they are endorsing the holy books.

They are endorsing primitive superstition over logic and science.

Such people are dangerous.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 03:39 PM

Musket,
If you discover the state of one, the other was ever thus, not caused to be.

Completely wrong!
You have exposed your own ignorance while mocking my actual knowledge.
I hope there are a decent few who will understand and enjoy your silly pratfall.

The state of both is undetermined until one of them is observed.
Observing one causes the state of both to be determined, instantly, however far apart they are.
As I said.
Look it up Musket.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 03:45 PM

do any quantum scientists actually believe that their most current prevailing theories are definitely set indisputably in stone...

i wouldn't risk taking an absolutist stance if I was one of 'em...

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 03:50 PM

The effect I described has been experimentally proven to occur.
There is no theory to explain how the information passes between the particles.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 04:10 PM

Please excuse me I've been in the pub all afternoon.

Keith says "The state of both is undetermined until one of them is observed. Observing one causes the state of both to be determined, instantly, however far apart they are"

Musket said "If you discover the state of one, the other was ever thus, not caused to be"

Is this not saying the same thing, or is my alcohol addled brain mistaken.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 04:56 PM

I love the idea that you can 'look up' anything on Google and become an instant expert on anything ranging from quantum physics to scrotal warts. There is a phrase for the kind of person that does. Just look it up :-)

Out of interest I have had my fair share of unexplainable occurrences. Including falling over a non existent black Labrador on our landing, Stone cold sober in the middle of the day. Literally. Yes, it was a literal fall. Not virtual or figurative ;-) I never put any of these experiences down to gods, faeries or bogie men. One day we will understand more :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Penny S.
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 06:01 PM

A really stupid example, for which I have no explanation, and no independent confirmation. And it didn't involve serious emotional content, either.

I'm sure you remember the first TV broadcast by Uri Geller, with the chap from Kings College London well taken in by his schtick. And I'm sure you are aware that the trick with him seeming to "see" the drawing apparently sealed in an envelope was spurious, as he had had an opportunity to see the drawing unobserved.

What I recall from that broadcast was the way he manipulated the audience, at least, me, to want him to succeed. And he drew people in to try an emulate his ability to "see" that drawing.

It was a child's type drawing of a sailing ship, with two triangular sails. I had drawn two triangles. Separated. and more like a pair of gables on a roof, but two triangles.

I've not been able to see the programme again to see if there were any visual clues which led me to get something that Geller got by cheating. Nor do I recall much said about other people picking up on that image. Quite a bit about watches starting and stopping. I was not, to be honest, happy about that occurrence. I don't like being manipulated.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 06:56 PM

Aint it weird that the "non stamp collectors" seem to be obsessed with the devotions of the "stamp collectors".......

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Musket
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 07:16 PM

Not quite Raggy. Keith was trying to say that entanglement had cause and effect. Utter nonsense and trying to put quantum mechanics into Newtonian ideals. There is no cause and effect, entanglement is pure indeterminate till observed and observing causes result. None of us were born when Heisenberg determined as such. Quantum mechanics has been based on such things ever since.

It's the sort of concept in the jacket cover of Quantum Mechanics for Idiots. If you can't grasp it, don't bother reading further till you can. If state and observation is too difficult, not much point in reading the Topsy and Tim guide to wave / particle duality...,

I know I moan about what schools churn out these days but is there any bloody wonder?

Although just like Michael in the other thread, trying to make me look a twat seems so important to them, perhaps we should just suspend reality and let them get on with it?

It's almost as funny as a post further up saying their telepathy has been verified. Random words by weird people.



No pete. Nobody is fascinated by stamp collecting but if philatelists tried to push their hobby into law in the same way God botherers do, I would have been doing an impersonation of a penny black with a huge arse instead of, as I did less than an hour ago, my take of Jesus on a rubber cross.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 07:35 PM

Steve, my wife could give evidence, but is much too sick at the moment to be bothered satisfying your curiosity.
I don't care what you think, and I'm sure the Christians here don't care what you think either....we KNOW what we believe and your opinions are of no consequence.
My experiences mean nothing to you, Joe, Pete or Hilo's faith makes no impression on you.
It is a personal matter, accept it and move on.

I give little credence to science, it has produced a little good and very much bad.
It has enabled us to survive in an unhealthy environment, we are becoming weaker with each new generation, more dependent on science,
soon humanity will be obsolete.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 07:41 PM

Get a grip, Pharoah.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Musket
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 07:59 PM

"I give little credence to science."

Or anything much else for that matter.

As you said, one day you will be obsolete. Humanity has little use for your attitudes anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Mar 16 - 08:04 PM

"Steve, my wife could give evidence"

Well that's interesting. I wonder whether it would stack up when scientific principles were applied to it. I hope she gets well soon, by the way.

"I don't care what you think, and I'm sure the Christians here don't care what you think either....we KNOW what we believe and your opinions are of no consequence."

Well I'm really glad you said this. In a very pithy way you've defined, unconsciously of course, what's wrong with religious faith. In a sentence, it's just fingers in ears. Thanks for that.

"My experiences mean nothing to you."

Cor, don't feel so threatened! Why would I waste all this time on this telepathy malarkey if your alleged experiences mean nothing to me? Au contraire, I'm intrigued by what you claim and all I ask for is your evidence.

"It is a personal matter, accept it and move on."

Well I have a number of personal matters that I would feel very offended about were you to address them. But you can't, because I haven't broadcast them here, unlike you with your telepathy claim. My advice to you is to keep your personal matters personal. Once they're out here, it's open season, old chap. Into the bearpit with your notions. You of all people should have realised that by now.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Mar 16 - 04:18 AM

Ake says: I give little credence to science, it has produced a little good and very much bad.

C'mon, Ake, you don't really mean that. For the most part, scientists do a good and very honest job of investigating the phenomenon/phenomena of the universe. There are some "scientists" who take on an anti-philosophical, anti-theological agenda, but I don't think that's most of them. Most are interested in finding scientific answers to scientific questions. Who can find fault with that?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Mar 16 - 04:31 AM

Musket, you still try to mock my supposed ignorance only to reveal your own total ignorance of quantum effects.

Rag, Musket said "If you discover the state of one, the other was ever thus, not caused to be"
That is wrong. He has failed to grasp that the quantum world is different.

If you had an individually wrapped pair of gloves, unwrapping one would reveal if it was left or right. You would also know that the other was the opposite and was ever thus.

A pair of quantum entangled gloves is different.
Each are both left and right until observed. That was beyond Musket's understanding.

When you unwrap one, its state collapses, randomly, to either left or right. At the same instant, the state of the other glove collapses to be opposite, even if at the other end of the universe!

It was not ever in that state until its partner was observed CAUSING its state to collapse. Musket was wrong. I was right.

Somehow information passes between them instantly over any distance, which of course is impossible, but it happens anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 26 Mar 16 - 04:38 AM

"I give little credence to science, it has produced a little good and very much bad"

Hmmmmm ............... a Latter Day Luddite.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Mar 16 - 05:33 AM

Yes I suppose so Raggytash, to an extent.
Joe, I suppose I should have said....how science has been misused.

Back to Luddism, science and technology in the main have not worked in the interests of humanity or the planet. Primitive societies existed for many thousands of years, this technological Pandora's Box has been in fully opened for perhaps three hundred.....anybody taking bets that we as a species last another three hundred?

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 26 Mar 16 - 05:40 AM

When you consider an average life span was about 40 years in the early 1800's and people worked an average 70 hours per week I would suggest that science has done us all a lot of favours.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Mar 16 - 06:24 AM

Its all relative R.....go to the average or even above average old folks home and ask what they think of longevity.

Infant mortality was the problem a couple of hundred years ago, if one survived infancy you stood a very good chance of attaining your three score and ten.
In our local churchyard it amazes me how many people in the 17 and 1800's lived to over ninety years......but by then the industrial revolution was just beginning to bite!

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 26 Mar 16 - 06:33 AM

Infant mortality certainly, and war and disease. They all combined to reduce life expectancy. But working 70 hours a week isn't fun I've done it. Cold, unsanitary housing, rudimentary medical care, low income, having to kowtow to my "betters", the massive influence of the church in my life etc etc.

Yep just the sort of thing I want to return to.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Mar 16 - 09:54 AM

if one survived infancy you stood a very good chance of attaining your three score and ten.

Not hardly. You'd best re-check your statistics.

I suppose I should have said....how science has been misused.

Damn good thing religion has never been misused, innit?

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Mar 16 - 10:40 AM

Wrong Greg.

"the increase in life expectancy between 1907 and 2007 was largely due to a decreasing infant mortality rate, which was 9.99 percent in 1907; 2.63 percent in 1957; and 0.68 percent in 2007.

But the inclusion of infant mortality rates in calculating life expectancy creates the mistaken impression that earlier generations died at a young age; Americans were not dying en masse at the age of 46 in 1907"

http://www.livescience.com/10569-human-lifespans-constant-2-000-years.html

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Mar 16 - 11:10 AM

Professor, your cut-n-pastes are OPINIONS - for which he cites no facts whatsoever - by Benjamin Radford, "paranormal investigator" of psychics, ghosts, exorcisms, miracles, Bigfoot, stigmata, lake monsters, UFO sightings, reincarnation, crop circles, and other topics.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 26 Mar 16 - 12:04 PM

"I want to know how God created this world. I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts; the rest are details."-----Albert Einstein

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." -----Albert Einstein

"My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind."-----Albert Einstein

"The further the spiritual evolution of mankind advances, the more certain it seems to me that the path to genuine religiosity does not lie through the fear of life, and the fear of death, and blind faith, but through striving after rational knowledge."-----Albert Einstein

"Every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe-a spirit vastly superior to that of man, and one in the face of which we with our modest powers must feel humble."-----Albert Einstein

"The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift."-----Albert Einstein

"When the solution is simple, God is answering."-----Albert Einstein

"The man who regards his own life and that of his fellow creatures as meaningless is not merely unfortunate but almost disqualified for life."-----Albert Einstein

"Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding."-----Albert Einstein


....and now a word from YOUR 'opinions'..can I here an 'Amen?"

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: olddude
Date: 26 Mar 16 - 12:13 PM

Great thing about freedom, you can believe or not believe anything You want, unlike many places on earth

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Mar 16 - 12:34 PM

hooray !!! do i get extra points for being one of the last guest posters...!!!??? 😜

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Mar 16 - 12:38 PM

Yeh, three house marks and a gold star.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Mar 16 - 12:41 PM

Yippee ki-yay, mother assisted living providers !!!!!! 😜

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Mar 16 - 01:37 PM

Greg, I was wrong to quote such a person, but the stats. referred to are respectable and genuine.

See this source.
"To help gain an answer to this question, scientists have compared the life span of adults in contemporary hunter-gat once infant mortality rates were removed, life span was calculated to between 70 and 80 years, the same rate as that found in contemporary industrialised societies. - See more at: http://www.ancient-origins.net/news-evolution-human-origins/life-expectancy-myth-and-why-many-ancient-humans-lived-long-077889#sthash.0Gb3S9SC.dpuf

http://www.ancient-origins.net/news-evolution-human-origins/life-expectancy-myth-and-why-many-ancient-humans-lived-long-077889

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Mar 16 - 01:50 PM

Professor:

Your statement was:

"if one survived infancy you stood a very good chance of attaining your three score and ten."

The article says (emphasis mine):

The early years from infancy through to about 15 was perilous, due to risks posed by disease, injuries, and accidents. But those who survived this hazardous period of life could well make it into old age.

COULD well. But didn't necessarily.

And also:

scientists have compared the life span of adults in contemporary hunter-gatherer tribes

We're not talking about "contemporary hunter-gatherer tribes", but of pre-industrial populations in the 18th and 19th centuries.

Guess again.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Mar 16 - 02:36 PM

Greg, in reply to "if one survived infancy you stood a very good chance of attaining your three score and ten" you replied, "Not hardly. You'd best re-check your statistics."

The stats. support Ake's contention.
You were wrong Greg.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Mar 16 - 02:45 PM

Apparently, Greg, you lose ;-) Sorry but everyone will now forever see that you also have dirty underwear and pick your nose. Mind you, everyone loses in these arguments. Best just call it a day I suppose...

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Mar 16 - 02:46 PM

Pre-industrial Britain.
"35! Average life expectancy at birth was around 35 but a great many of the people born died in childhood. We don't know exactly what percentage died but if we say about 25% of people died before they were 5 years old we are probably not wide of the mark. Perhaps as many as 40% died before they reached adulthood. However if you could survive childhood and your teenage years you had a good chance of living to your 50s or your early 60s and even in the Middle Ages in Western Europe there were some people who lived to 70 or 80."

"Life expectancy rose further in Britain in the late 19th century. By 1900 in Britain it was about 47 for a man and about 50 for a woman. (That does not mean of course that people dropped dead in their late forties. The figures are skewed because death in childhood was still common in the early 20th century. That affected the average figure.)"
http://www.localhistories.org/life.html

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Mar 16 - 02:53 PM

Dueling is legal in Paraguay as long as both parties are registered blood donors.



http://uselessfacts.net

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Mar 16 - 05:50 PM

Professor, more opinions and blogs. You haven't come up with anything that relies on or references facts.

Take another walk in that cemetery and note down the ages of persons that died between, say, 1820 and 1870.

Then come back and report to the class.

-----------------------------

Dave, that Paraguay item is pretty good. Has more to do with the discussion than either Pharoah or The Professor.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Mar 16 - 07:21 PM

Greg why don't you just refer to members by their usernames?

I rather like "Pharaoh" but others probably get pissed off with this stuff. I know you're not a bad fellow, a bit spikey at times, but in the spirit of Max's edict hows about a truce and concentration on the issues.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Mar 16 - 08:10 PM

So your name Really IS "Akhenaten" then? Or do you prefer Amenhotep IV?

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Mar 16 - 04:26 AM

Not opinions Greg.
It is fact as shown by the statistics given.
It is just your opinion that the stats. are wrong.

You are entitled to your opinion but you should not be so abusive in challenging the opinions of others who the stats. endorse.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Mar 16 - 10:03 AM

Go away, Professor. You have no idea what you're talking about. I'm not going to get into an argument with a six year old.

And yeah, Dave, I know - "I lose". And my mother wears combat boots.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Mar 16 - 12:30 PM

Greg,
Professor, more opinions and blogs. You haven't come up with anything that relies on or references facts.

They were not blogs and they were factual.
The pieces were written by Tim Lambert and April Holloway, both qualified professionals.

Look up anything on historical life span and you will find the same thing.
You will find nothing whatsoever to justify your attack on Ake, who was quite correct in what he said.

It is you who "have no idea what you're talking about."
By your aggressive refutation of the actual truth you have made yourself ridiculous.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Mar 16 - 12:36 PM

Bugger.. if human lifespan is increasing to such an alarming extent,
that means many of us mudcat nutters will be stuck with each other for at least another decade or so.. 😜

Max permitting.....

Also bear in mind, dementia is setting in earlier in late middle age for many more of us...

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Mar 16 - 02:05 PM

Yo, Professor! Your mother was a hamster and your father smelled of elderberries!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Mar 16 - 02:40 PM

Just more abuse then Greg.
Why can you never be nice?

Why could you not reply to Ake with something like,
"I think you might be wrong about that. It contradicts my observations in old cemeteries?"

We could then have discussed the issue like grown ups.
Anyone can name call. No actual knowledge is needed.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Mar 16 - 06:29 PM

Yo, Professor! Yo mama so fat....!

Now, go away before I taunt you a second time.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Mar 16 - 04:47 AM

Empty threat Greg.
Sticks and stones.

Name calling requires no knowledge or intelligence and in debate indicates surrender to the other side, so do it some more Greg.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Mar 16 - 04:59 AM

Greg, this is only a tiny forum, the important thing is getting to express your views on issues, not have a shouting match.
Keith treats you respectfully why don't you do the same, when you are being serious we all listen.

Subject: RE: BS: Norway Leads The Way
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Mar 16 - 10:15 AM

Apparently not a Monty Python fan.