BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 15 May 16 - 04:59 PM

"One of the chief tasks of any dialogue with the Gentile world is to prove that the distinction between anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism is not a distinction at all. Anti-Zionism is merely the new anti-Semitism. The old classic anti-Semitism declared that equal rights belong to all individuals within the society, except the Jews. The new anti-Semitism says that the right to establish and maintain an independent national sovereign state is the prerogative of all nations, so long as they happen not to be Jewish."

Abba Eban

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 May 16 - 04:28 PM

I see the customary intellectual dishonesty of the small coterie of far right posters here. I identified the exact nature of the self interest that I mentioned. It did not involve conflating any of the four distinct things - Israel, Zionism, Judaism, or being Jewish. That was ignored. I have shown conclusively that the cited definition of "antisemitism" has been abandoned and is wrong. That was ignored too. It is also by now wholly clear that Khan will do or say anything at all to undermine Corbyn, with an eye to his own main chance and taking the Labour party back to the failed and dishonest Blairite philosophy. Yet the intellectually dishonest use his statements as a statement of Labour policy and at the same time ignore their plain meanings.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 May 16 - 07:25 PM

Just for once, my two favourite songs of the whole evening came first and second, though I might just have edged it in favour of the Aussie lass. Plenty of fun as usual along with plenty of buttock-clenching. And you wouldn't think that the UK is the nation that produced the Beatles, the Stones, the Who, the Animals, Dusty, Amy Winehouse...😢

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 May 16 - 07:09 PM

This is fun - Saturday night - Watching Eurovision Song Contest - a one night in a year festival of diversity and togetherness...

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 May 16 - 07:06 PM

Which one of you is losing the battle of wits? The anonymous Guest who called us Jew-haters, pretending that we "should attack the issue, not the man" whilst simultaneously calling us names if we so much as ever so slightly demurred from agreement with the Israeli regime's activities? I don't need to hide in any safe place, unlike you. Why, two minutes after reading this, you could be ringing my house phone. That's how much I hide. I'm Steve Shaw, proudly in the open and living here in north Cornwall, and always have been. As a matter of fact, the mods love you far more than they love me. I've been threatened for being a pain in the arse, yet they leave you alone even though you post under secret multiple identities, post bigotry as a matter of routine and call people vile names. Boy, you haven't got my number, but I have both yours, and schoolyard bullies love to hide behind a wall of anonymity, if they can get away with it. Which you can't, any more. Go on, deny it. I note that you haven't, despite a number of challenges from me, which speaks volumes. You know you can't, because I'm not the only person around here who knows who you were and are. And mods, you should know from his ISP who he is. As I say always, mods, it's your gig. I shrug in your direction.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 14 May 16 - 06:35 PM

Ah, ha, ha.....mods, mods help, save me, I'm losing the battle of wits.

Boy, have I got your number. Just like a schoolyard bully you can dish it out but you can't take it.

Go hide in your safe place behind the mods now so you won't be traumatized.

Suckhole Shaw....... what a freaking baby.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 May 16 - 05:34 PM

Quite right, pfr. Note the total lack of intellectual depth in any of bobad/anonymous coward-Guest's posts in this thread. Received wisdom, right-wing websites, blind Islamophobia, lies, pro-Zionist claptrap, kneejerk cries of antisemitism, sniping, bitterness. Apart from that, isn't he wonderful. He's probably lost the location of his hole (the one he needs to crawl back into, not the other one).

And, mods, that's me exercising free speech. Take a peek at every post of bobad's in this thread, then tell me who's the villain (you might like to take into account that some of us at least don't need to resort to secret multiple identities).

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 May 16 - 05:17 PM

I just reflexively mumble "Arsehole" at at any and all fanatics and extremists.... 😩

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 14 May 16 - 04:05 PM

I would also place into the category of "regressive left" those who while posing as being critical of all religions reflexively scream "Islamophobe" at anyone who is critical of Islam.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 14 May 16 - 03:52 PM

a list of people on the left who are pro-Islamist? Er, I don't appear to know any...

I guess you've never heard of Jeremy Corbyn who counts Islamist terrorist groups Hamas and Hezbollah among his friends or George "I glorify the Hizbollah national resistance movement, and I glorify the leader of Hizbollah, Sheikh Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah." Galloway.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 14 May 16 - 03:31 PM

It's perfectly possible to support Hamas in their resistance to Israeli aggression against Gaza

Is a perfect example of pandering to Islamists.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 May 16 - 02:26 PM

"regressive left"


It's actually no more than a fashionable new buzz word to beat up an element of the left that has always existed or been imagined to exist to a greater extent....

In the 1980s the popular reactionary media insult employed to marginalise, discredit, and divide, fringe factions within Labour
was "The Looney Left"...

Older mudcatters may remember the equivalent term back in the 1960s and 50s...???

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 May 16 - 02:25 PM

Well he must be very proud that people like you appreciate his road to Damascus conversion, I'm sure. To think, but a few years ago you might have been branding him a murderous Jew-hater (I hope you don't mind if I borrow your language), yet now he's your guru. Well I never! Now would you be so kind as give me a list of people on the left who are pro-Islamist? Er, I don't appear to know any...

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 14 May 16 - 02:10 PM

among the hard left

I find the term "regressive left" as coined by Maajid Nawaz, a former member of the radical Islamist group Hizb ut-Tahrir, to better describe this subset of "leftists" who give the progressive left a bad name.

Regressive left

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 May 16 - 01:58 PM

It was pounced on by other Labour members who were using it opportunistically to undermine Jeremy Corbyn. Stop pretending that you don't understand these really basic things,
It was pounced on by other Labour members who were using it opportunistically to undermine Jeremy Corbyn. Stop pretending that you don't understand these really basic things,

That is why I asked whither the party?
Also, it is hard not to conclude that among the hard left there is an issue about anti-semitism.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 May 16 - 01:48 PM

It was pounced on by other Labour members who were using it opportunistically to undermine Jeremy Corbyn. Stop pretending that you don't understand these really basic things, Keith. And of course it became a national issue, not because the people who made it into an issue give a stuff about antisemitism or the Jews but because they gleefully pounced on a perceived split in the Labour Party, a time-honoured ploy by the media.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 May 16 - 01:09 PM

Keith - obviously Khan can't pop up here to explain precisely what he meant...

sorry...

But we could waste all our time and attention applying the intellectual tools of critical analysis to the 'meaning'
of quickly dashed off headlines by hack reporters working to pressing deadlines...


PS.. I appreciate it's one of your key debating methods,
but I personally try my best to NEVER DO emphatic assertions of opinion or conjecture as statements of fact..

Which I was long ago educated to consider as not a particularly intelligent or honest approach to discussion
That's a discipline ingrained in me since Grammar School,
and reinforced by the nature of my long time ago cultural ideology field of degree and post grad studies...


NOTE: but I do understand how that is a valuable tool for propaganda and cynical amoral dogmatic political activists... 😣

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 May 16 - 12:38 PM

Khan is deliberately stressing the word "IF" as he acknowledges the possibility that there may be some problem,
and then positively confirming he would not hesitate in "calling it out" .. IF and WHEN he might ever encounter it...

He DOES call it out, and he accuses Corbyn of "failing to call it out."
That was in the Indy headline and the text,
"Jeremy Corbyn accused of failing to 'call out' Labour antisemitism by Sadiq Khan."

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 May 16 - 09:47 AM

Keith - it's a long time since I was a technically accurate writer of 'correct' English..
but even I can tell you are wrongly understanding Khan's isolated statement..

He is first and foremost a politician - it is a politician's statement in the idiomatic coded language of Politicians...

Khan is acutely aware that every word he utters in public will be over scrutinised without mercy.

He is carefully appearing to please everyone who might be listening..

He is addressing the public at a time of intense strategic media magnified discrediting of the Labour party.

This is the context for his statement.

Khan is deliberately stressing the word "IF" as he acknowledges the possibility that there may be some problem,
and then positively confirming he would not hesitate in "calling it out" .. IF and WHEN he might ever encounter it...

It's your misperception that he is appealing to what you think you are reading into it...


..and btw.. I am absolutely not in denial..

I am too cautiously objective and rigorously self disciplined a thinker to allow that to happen on any issue....

please remember and respect that !!!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 May 16 - 06:44 AM

I may not know much about the Labour party, but Khan and all those other members do.
Khan says, "If somebody is saying views that are appalling, disgusting and clearly anti-Semitic, I've got to call it out."

Ask him who those "somebodies" are who are "clearly anti-semetic" and if they are do you want them in the membership?

you pounce on the slightest hint of misjudged remarks and blow them out of all proportion

No I did not. It was pounced on by other Labour members and became a national issue.

your "views" which are actually predigested Israeli regime propaganda.

This is not about israel, but on threads that are I have put Israel's side of the argument.
Why does that make you angry?
Why should not both sides be heard?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 May 16 - 06:24 AM

I am not in denial at all. I'm asking you to tell me who has not been outed who hasn't already been dealt with, who in your opinion is antisemitic in the Labour Party and what's your evidence, and who do you think should be expelled? You know summat, Keith, you're very good at asking us "challenging questions" but you appear to be congenitally incapable of answering them yourself. I asked you a question and instead of answering it you've twisted it into a "Steve's in denial" fib. My opinion is as follows, Keith. As in any larger organisation, there may be antisemitism in the Labour Party. However, it is not endemic or institutionalised - there is no evidence for that. The woman who suggested that Israel should be moved to the US is a bloody idiot, but it was not an antisemitic remark. She did not say that JEWS should be ethnically-cleansed out of Israel. Now that WOULD have been antisemitic. Ken Livingstone was a bloody fool for saying what he did, but what he said was technically accurate and not antisemitic and the remark was not intended to demonise or disadvantage Jews BECAUSE THEY ARE JEWS. They both deserve a good bollocking and should be made to promise to not make such remarks again, at the very least.

Be honest, Keith. You are a sycophantic supporter of Israel and its regime. They can do no wrong in your eyes. Like that regime and its ardent backers, you pounce on the slightest hint of misjudged remarks and blow them out of all proportion in order to wrong-foot your political enemies and divert attention from the gross misdeeds of the Israeli regime. I get that you support Israel. As a matter of fact, I support all the citizens of Israel regardless of ethnicity or religion and wish them peace, prosperity and security, and anyone who says Israel should be wiped off the map is insane. But I do not support their regime. You take the whole package, without trying to think for yourself. That's great, but don't pretend to come here with your "views" which are actually predigested Israeli regime propaganda. That just makes you a mouthpiece. As we know, a mouthpiece is too easily separated from the brain six inches above it.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 May 16 - 05:17 AM


I don't see obvious proof that he believes Labour is stuffed full of 'jew haters'..

No-one is suggesting that.
Many people inside and outside the party are saying that there is a problem, and an enquiry is being set up.
Khan seems to think that it is self evidently a fact.

You two seem to be in denial that there is any issue at all.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 May 16 - 02:23 PM

I think politically ambitious nails it, pfr. Where would we be without 'em! Interesting that people like Keith find solace in lefties like him, innit, when they happen to "say the right thing." I think we call it expediency on their part.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 May 16 - 02:05 PM

I see 2 subtexts to Khan's statement..

1.. He's a muslim being very cautiously diplomatic in needing to appease and not alienate various factions of supporters and potential enemies..

1.5.. He is a successful politician after all... 😜


2.. He's politically ambitious and basking in new found power and glory,
and making clear his position on Corbyn, whatever may happen regarding Labour Leadership rancour in the coming months..

I don't see obvious proof that he believes Labour is stuffed full of 'jew haters'..
though, as a muslim he's bound to be over sensitive to insinuations and accusations, and inference of 'guilt by association'
that will no doubt continuously be pointing his way.. ???

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 May 16 - 01:40 PM

So who should be expelled for antisemitism, Keith, and can you give precise details of what they've done to deserve expulsion? Keith...?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 May 16 - 01:23 PM

Pfr, yes Mudcat is not running well recently for me either.

Khan says "if" but he does call it, so he clearly accepts it.

"If somebody is saying views that are appalling, disgusting and clearly anti-Semitic, I've got to call it out. The fact that that person happens to be from my party, the fact that the leader of my party is failing to call it out, that's irrelevant. I have to call it out."

Steve,

I'm a bit bemused here, Keith. If the Mayor of London insists on calling out antisemitism, who are the antisemites he's calling out that Jeremy Corbyn hasn't already called out? Keith...?

I do not speak for Khan, but I assume he means that the response has been inadequate. No expulsions yet.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 May 16 - 01:13 PM

I'm a bit bemused here, Keith. If the Mayor of London insists on calling out antisemitism, who are the antisemites he's calling out that Jeremy Corbyn hasn't already called out? Keith...?

And Keith, if you want to do a really useful piece of calling out, how's about calling out your mate bobad, name-caller-in-chief (which you profess not to like) and posting secretly under multiple identities, a form of dishonesty (which you profess not to like) - or is it OK because he thinks we're all antisemites? I've called him out already, but it doesn't get me anywhere...

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 May 16 - 08:12 AM

oh yeah.... Keith - ""Khan states "saying views that are appalling, disgusting and clearly anti-Semitic""

Errrmmm.. don't you remember you initially posted that Khan quote
with the magic big difference word "if" at the start of it...

ie..""If somebody is saying views that are appalling, disgusting and clearly anti-Semitic""......

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 May 16 - 08:10 AM

The Israel regime and its supporters are continuing to equate criticism of Israel with Antisemitism to the extent that the former European definition has now been called into question.
I was quite interested to read the American State Department's definition, part of which reads:

"The fifth trend is the blurring of the lines between What I hear from our diplomatic missions, and from non-governmental organizations alike, is that this happens easily and often. I want to be clear – legitimate criticism of policies of the State of Israel is not anti-Semitism. We do record huge increases in anti-Semitic acts whenever there are hostilities in the Middle East. This form of anti-Semitism is more difficult for many to identify. But if all Jews are held responsible for the decisions of the sovereign State of Israel, this is not objecting to a policy – this is hatred of the collective Jew or anti-Semitism. "
So in fact the Israeli regime are still guilty of Antisemitism in claiming that all criticism o Israel is Antisemitic - in other wortds, it is The Jews who are committing the atrocities and war crimes, not the Israeli regime.
They have certainly blurred the lines between opposition to the policies of the State of Israel and anti-Semitism, and deliberately so.
The piece also includes:
"The sixth trend is the growing nationalistic movements which target "the other" – be they immigrants, or religious and ethnic minorities – in the name of protecting the identity and "purity" of nations"
which is, of course, what Israel is in the process of doing in ejecting Palestinians and replecing them with Israeli settler, thereby creating an Apartheid State (an accusation widely made by Israeli Jews and Jews elsewhere throughout the world.
It seem, despite its herclean efforts of propaganda, Israel cannot avoid being recognised as what is it a terrorist state defending its terrorism by blaming The Jewish People as a whole.
Jim Carroll.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 13 May 16 - 08:07 AM

all parties harbour their fair share of mentally deficient fanatics....

Some more than others it would appear.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 May 16 - 07:59 AM

Tech Query: Keith - I've been having problems all week with this thread opening very slowly and frequently crashing half way.
It's a pain in the arse trying to follow and keep up with this discussion.
As you are in the UK as well [not abroad or using a VPN - as others often might be]
are you having similar problems ?

I just assumed it's mudcat server problems again...???

=================================================================

ok back on topic...

Sadiq Khan - he's high in the public spotlight, and presumably not a big fan of Corbyn.
And uniquely for a UK muslim, in such a position of power he has to tread extra carefully on multi cultural issues...

fair play to him... and well done for winning London.


Musabbir Ali - sounds like a complete fukwit arsehole,
if all that is true then he needs to feel the full clout of Labour Party discipline...

Sad fact of life, all parties harbour their fair share of mentally deficient fanatics.... 😣

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 13 May 16 - 07:49 AM

bingo.. go on bobad.. you're dying to call me it...!!!!!

"You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows."

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 13 May 16 - 07:42 AM

Labour Party Suspends Member for Accusing Jews of 'Genocide' Against British

In the latest in a long series of suspensions of members of the British Labour Party for anti-Semitic comments, the party has suspended Musabbir Ali, of the Tower Hamlets branch of the party in East London "pending an investigation," the London Jewish Chronicle reported Thursday.

Ali's suspension followed his tweet of a blatantly anti-Semitic blogpost that alleged that Jews have committed genocide against the British people. Britain's Jewish News website reported that the suspicion followed a complaint on the matter to the Jewish Labour Movement, which is affiliated with the British Labour Party.

Ali is said to have posted a link to the blogpost, entitled "Timeline Of The Jewish Genocide Of The British People," on Tuesday. The timeline runs from the year 1066 to the present. Among the distortions of history in the blogpost is a description of 1933, the year in which the Nazis took power in Germany, stating: "International Jewry declared all-out war on the German People and swear to destroy them after they threw off the shackles of Jewish oppression."

Among the British leaders which the blogpost dubs "Jewish puppets" are 17th century British leader Oliver Cromwell and 20th century British prime ministers, Neville Chamberlain, Winston Churchill, Edward Heath and Tony Blair, the Jewish Chronicle said. The newspaper added that after more than 100 people were killed in the Turkish capital, Ankara, in a terrorist attack in October, Ali tweeted: "I think it's must be work evil #Israeli."

Haaretz

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 May 16 - 07:40 AM

Pfr please note, that although I said "appeared antisemitic" Khan states "saying views that are appalling, disgusting and clearly anti-Semitic,"

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 May 16 - 07:36 AM

The Independant, 22 hours ago,

"Jeremy Corbyn accused of failing to 'call out' Labour antisemitism by Sadiq Khan

He added: "If somebody is saying views that are appalling, disgusting and clearly anti-Semitic, I've got to call it out. The fact that that person happens to be from my party, the fact that the leader of my party is failing to call it out, that's irrelevant. I have to call it out."

"In an article for The Observer, Mr Khan had already criticised Mr Corbyn's electoral strategy, writing: "It should never be about 'picking sides', [or] a 'them-or-us' attitude,"

"Our aim should be to unite people from all backgrounds as a broad and welcoming tent – not to divide and rule.""

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-corbyn-failing-to-call-out-antisemitism-in-labour-sadiq-khan-a7025696.html

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 May 16 - 07:33 AM

"And so another one outs himself."

bingo.. go on bobad.. you're dying to call me it...!!!!! 😜

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 May 16 - 07:28 AM

Sweden...???

reminds me...

A comical aspect of the Israeli propaganda machine...

In Sweden last night at the semi final of the Eurovision Song Contest.
The Israeli entry [not a bad young singer, hugely expensive stage costume & presentation, but dull song]
somehow gained enough votes to win a place in the finals..

A member of the jubilant Israeli team barged forward through the line up of finalists to the front,
desperately waving his full size flag centre stage at the cameras, almost knocking the Swedish star presenter out of the way..

Kinda illustrates how Israel, tiny nation that it is, desperately seeks attention on the world stage.
For instance hijacking the run up to the recent UK elections
to make it all about antisemitic 'hard left' Labour critics of The Israeli Regime...????

[it's the weekend - time to have fun with entertaining conspiracy theories... 😜 ]

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 13 May 16 - 07:07 AM

..there is an element of truth revealing itself,
in as much as the extent to which powerful well funded/resourced pro israeli political lobbyists & activists
can exert immense interfering influence on western media and Govts..

And so another one outs himself.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 May 16 - 06:46 AM

bobad - you may think you are being cleverly ironic / sarcastic...

.. and whilst genuine neo n@zi halfwits would agree with you without any doubt in their thick thug skulls;


..there is an element of truth revealing itself,
in as much as the extent to which powerful well funded/resourced pro israeli political lobbyists & activists
can exert immense interfering influence on western media and Govts..

Israeli intelligence agencies have never [allegedly] been too restrained in taking their covert fight onto the soil of other friendly nations...???

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 13 May 16 - 06:21 AM

Exactly, Keith. Say one word against Israel and out come the big guns.

Surely, Keith, you must know by now that Jews control everything in the world, even Swedish government officials.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 May 16 - 05:17 AM

"Some Swedish politicians said this about her."
And Wiki says this about her
A truely remarkable woman with a track record to prove it, no matter what some politicians say about her.
Tzipi Hotovely (Hebrew: ציפי חוטובלי‎, born 2 December 1978) is an Israeli politician who currently serves as a member of the Knesset for the Likud, and as Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs since 2015.
Hotovely is a doctorate student at the Faculty of Law in Tel Aviv University. Hotovely practises Orthodox Judaism and is a self-described "religious rightwinger"
Wiki
Ofir Akuni is an extremist Israeli right-wing politician.
Akunis is opposed to relinquishing the Occupied Territories and supports settlement in all parts of the country "with no disparity between the Golan, the Galil, the Negev or Yehuda and Shomron". Akunis believes that Israel has the historical and moral right to the territory under Israeli control, according to the teachings of Jabotinsky, "All Mine".
Wiki
Another attempt to smear opponents of Israel by the extreme right.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 May 16 - 04:37 AM

Exactly, Keith. Say one word against Israel and out come the big guns. Thanks for the perfect illustration. Now we know why US presidents daren't take on the Israeli regime.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 May 16 - 04:29 AM

The extra judicial killing concern was raised by Sweden's Foreign Mister, Margot Wallstrom.
Some Swedish politicians said this about her.

"The statement provoked a strong reaction across the political spectrum with deputy foreign minister Tzipi Hotovely declaring Wallström persona non grata, stating that her Swedish colleague was "de facto supporting" terrorism via "a terrible combination of foolishness and diplomatic stupidity."

Science, Technology and Space Minister Ofir Akunis went further, suggesting that, instead, there should be an investigation into "how a woman who so bluntly hates Israel was elected and still holds the role of foreign minister of Sweden."

Swedish Government,
"Economic relations between Sweden and Israel are in a positive stage of development and we see a clear increase in the numbers of business-related visits and inquires.

The Swedish Government actively promotes such contacts. Lately Israel has received several delegations from Sweden with businessmen and senior officials to develop co-operation in a wide range of fields, including hi-tech, IT, telecommunications, biotech, environmental technology, infrastructure and consumer goods.

We want to develop trade – in both directions "

"Embassy of Israel, Stockholm
As part of the Ministry of Industry and Trade and in close association with the Israel Export Institute, the Commercial Departments can offer a variety of free services to companies and individuals wishing to trade between Israel and the Nordic countries."

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 May 16 - 09:26 AM

"This is a perfect example of the kind of dissembling antisemites like to employ."

Well, ex-Guest, how can we help it if you never read the news? 😂😂😂

It's quite interesting to do some Google-doodling about the attitudes of some of Keith's decent and democratic countries towards the Israeli regime's aggression towards Palestinians. Try things like Sweden's/France's attitude towards Israel, or just "other nations' attitudes towards Israel." Go on, have an investigative Google for an entertaining half hour, like I did this morning. There's tons of stuff out there to have you shifting uncomfortably from one buttock to the other, Keith and the article formerly known as Guest. Cor, fancy the Swedes, for example, publicly suspecting the regime of extrajudicial killings (nice euphemism, eh?) Last time I looked, Sweden was a decent and democratic country. Of course, you may prefer to stay in your comfort zone. I'm sure you'll find succour in some more Haaretz articles, or on the Jewish Chronicle website, or on AIPAC's website. Keep 'em coming, guys, but just remember that some of us are more than up for confronting unpalatable truths, unlike you deniers.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 May 16 - 08:29 AM

"I was hoping to discuss the current problems of Labour including the number of members who appear to be antisemites."

thank you Keith.. because as we all should know by now, appearances can be deceptive...

And can most certainly be intentionally distorted, manipulated, misconstrued, misrepresented, etc.. etc..

That's the cynical nature of media & politics, and a propaganda strategy for malicious opponents with hostile agendas... 😫

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 12 May 16 - 08:21 AM

Israeli aggression against Gaza.

This is a perfect example of the kind of dissembling antisemites like to employ.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 May 16 - 06:33 AM

It was not a "Guardian piece." It was a letter signed by over 80 British Jews. Kindly refrain from misrepresenting just for once. The person who referred to the article in Haaretz was bobad, not Bobert, who may not be overjoyed to be associated with it. You have my opinion already on the Haaretz article. It was biased, twisted, pro-Zionist nonsense of the worst kind. Even you should be able to come up with something more considered and challenging than that. The "points" it raises have all been dealt with in this thread.

"What Israeli aggression against Gaza" - you really are having a laugh, aren't you.

What's an "enemy of Israel," Keith? The same thing as a "critic of Israel," perhaps? How many countries have waged war on Israel lately? Well I'm most decidedly not an enemy of Israel, I'm making those accusations, so your assertion is woefully off the mark.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 May 16 - 05:11 AM

Once again Bobert's Haaretz article can be read for free if you arrive via Google.
Just Google part of the text in quotes.
I used
"The anti-Zionist mutation of anti-Semitism is particularly pernicious,"

Worth a read because it argues the opposite case to Steve's Guardian piece.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 May 16 - 05:02 AM

Steve,
"No-one is, and no decent democratic country even accuses israel of 'war crime and ats of terror.'"
Define decent.

Shorthand for liberal democracies such as Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Scandinavian and other EU states,.....
None accuse Israel of war crimes or acts of terror.

Why do you put war crimes and acts of terror in quotes?

Because they are unsubstantiated accusations made only by enemies of Israel.

It's perfectly possible to support Hamas in their resistance to Israeli aggression against Gaza

What Israeli aggression against Gaza. The aggression has always come from Hamas and Israel has just responded to it.

Steve, this is not a thread to rehash all those old arguments.
I acknowledge that it is legitimate to criticise Israel and any other state.

I was hoping to discuss the current problems of Labour including the number of members who appear to be antisemites.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 May 16 - 03:09 PM

Ah, shite, Jim - you may consider my botty well and truly smacked... 😳🔫