BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 16 - 03:57 AM

More arrogance, more denials - no evidence and no response to the documented evidence that has been produced - in great detail.
Nothing new here
"Jenin"
We even appear to have the wrong massacre here - keep up cabin boy - or maybe the exaggerations of Jenin negate their having been one at Sabra-Shatila
Seems the Village Idiot's Day has come upon us once again.
The massacre was reported on by independent groups and was declared a crime against humanity
The fact that Billy the Bully has to ask if I know what the name of the Stadium is indicative that he hasn't bothered his arse to read back arguments.
I introduced that facts of the massacre in the first place - all the facts, including names, eye witness and official reports, world-wide reaction.... the lot - the hiding of the hiding of the bodies were gone into in detail - from official records.
Only Israel found itself not guilty of it's involvement in the massacre - and the enquiry reluctantly took place because 400,000 decent Israeli citizens demanded one.
The Israelis reacted to their own findings by appointing the man they deemed responsible by appointing him Prime Minister - a pretty fair summing up of the importance the Israeli regime attaches to human life   
ISRAEL'S PART IN THE MASSACRE remains a fact and remains unpunished.
Do you stupid pair think bullying arrogance and open lying changes those facts in any way - it certainly impresses nobody here?
You produce nothing by way of evidence, you both lie extensively in all your arguments and are persistently found to heve done so (tell us about the "unidentified" ammo again, Cap'n Pugwash)
You really are a distastefully pathetic pair
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Sep 16 - 02:18 AM

It is wicked of you to even suggest that anyone here regarded the massacre as "justified."
You should take that back now Steve.

These events happened in the context of the Lebanes civil war that had been grinding on for years.

"From 1975 to 1990, groups in competing alliances with neighboring countries fought against each other in the Lebanese Civil War. Infighting and massacres between these groups claimed several thousand victims. Examples: the Syrian-backed Karantina massacre (January 1976) by the Kataeb and its allies against Kurds, Syrians and Palestinians in the predominantly Muslim slum district of Beirut; Damour (January 1976) by the PLO against Christian Maronites, including the family and fiancée of the Lebanese Forces intelligence chief Elie Hobeika; and Tel al-Zaatar (August 1976) by Phalangists and their allies against Palestinian refugees living in a camp administered by UNRWA. The total death toll in Lebanon for the whole civil war period was around 150,000 victims"

"During the early years of the war, massacres on a large scale were perpetrated by the fighting forces against the civilian population. The Christian city of Damour was captured and destroyed by Palestinian terrorists in January 1976. The Christian residents fled the city, and the conquering forces carried out acts of slaughter that cost the lives of many Christians. In August 1976, the Christian forces captured the Tel Zaatar refugee camp in Beirut, where Palestinian terrorists had dug in, and thousands of Palestinian refugees were massacred. Each massacre brought in its wake acts of revenge of a similar nature. The number of victims of the civil war has been estimated at close to 100,000 killed, including a large number of civilians, among them women and children."

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 16 - 08:28 PM

Well, Teribus, perhaps you could tell us all why the phalangists feeling so "embittered" justified the merciless slaughters they carried out in the two refugee camps. Gosh, only last week I was terribly embittered when a local landlord served me a pint of flat Doom Bar that was at least three degrees too warm, then short-changed me by 10p. I think I'll take a machete to him tomorrow...

In other words, stop trying to defend the indefensible.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Sep 16 - 01:56 AM

Thank you for responding as you did Greg - another typical example of one of your meaningless non-posts - saying nothing, addressing nothing, contributing nothing.

"Normally anything I state can be backed up by documented verified fact. Which is why in response we get idiotic meaningless tripe from you, because you cannot counter the detail."


Greg F. - 10 Sep 16 - 05:29 PM

Quod Erat Demonstrandum

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Sep 16 - 05:29 PM

Normally anything I state can be backed up by documented verified fact

Now that really IS amusing, T-Bird. What about abnormally?

But I've recently joined TRA (Turd-Wrestlers Anonymous) so will have to bow out.

Cheers.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Sep 16 - 05:11 PM

About as good as you can muster on this Forum Greg.

Normally anything I state can be backed up by documented verified fact. Which is why in response we get idiotic meaningless tripe from you, because you cannot counter the detail. From Jom it is spittle-flecked emotive froth, because he cannot counter or disprove the detail.

The Palestinians spun a yarn relating to Beirut in 1982 - none of you so far have questioned why the Christian Phalange were so embittered against the Palestinians and the PLO - you should look up what role they played in the destabilisation of the Lebanon and Beruit, you won't because of course it is all Israel's fault - you couldn't be further from the truth.The Palestinians also tried to spin the same yarn about Jenin but this time they got caught out in their lies and propaganda.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Sep 16 - 02:06 PM

Jim,
Ruth Smeeth attended the conference where Netunyahu racially attacked the Palestinian people

Firstly, Netunyahu did no such thing.
Secondly, she attended in 2007, and the speech you refer to was made at the 2003 conference.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Sep 16 - 01:15 PM

Just because they said it was so doesn't necessarily mean that that was how it was

Right back atcha, T-Bird.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Sep 16 - 01:02 PM

As you think that this is supposedly all so easy for you Jom, did you ever find out the name of that Sports Stadium?

Also could you explain how it would be possible for someone to dig a mass grave with a Bulldozer in the middle of a city, under full observation of those supposed witnesses, the Lebanese Army, the Multi-National Force (US, Italian, French and British armed forces), various NGOs and aid agencies and manage to keep it "secret".

Now similar tales were broadcast about another "massacre" as I recall - place called Jenin. How many innocent Palestinian "civilians" were the Israelis supposed to have "massacred" there Jom?

"The UN report to the Secretary General noted "Palestinians had claimed that between 400 and 500 people had been killed, fighters and civilians together. They had also claimed a number of summary executions and the transfer of corpses to an unknown place outside the city of Jenin."

Then the truth came out:

Human Rights Watch completed its report on Jenin in early May, stating "there was no massacre," but accusing the IDF of war crimes,[80] and Amnesty International's report concluded "No matter whose figures one accepts, "there was no massacre."[1] Amnesty's report specifically observed that "after the IDF temporarily withdrew from Jenin refugee camp on April 17, UNRWA set up teams to use the census lists to account for all the Palestinians (some 14,000) believed to be resident of the camp on April 3, 2002. Within five weeks all but one of the residents was accounted for."[81] A BBC report later noted, "Palestinian authorities made unsubstantiated claims of a wide-scale massacre,"[15] and a reporter for The Observer opined that what happened in Jenin was not a massacre.[82]

The war crimes allegation didn't stand up either, all that happened in an area under Israel's control.

Kinda pours doubts and completely destroys any credibility on claims by the PLO and their allies - Just because they said it was so doesn't necessarily mean that that was how it was - they are not beyond lying if they think it will be to their advantage.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Sep 16 - 12:59 PM

Jim dear, you are such a transparent old fraud.
If you had a point you thought would defeat me, you would shout it from the roof tops and post it in inch high red capitals!

The fact is that you have nothing.
We have had this debate many times before, you have come up with nothing new this time, and you know I can knock down anything you put up.

But I will give you another chance to prove that you are not just a sad, total loser.

Which point would you like to have re-answered first?
In your own time Jim dear.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Sep 16 - 09:47 AM

Is that what they do to dissidents in Israel?

There ARE no dissidents in Israel - all Israeli citizens support the right-wing government 100 per cent. Just ask Professor Bubo.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Sep 16 - 08:37 AM

"Which would you like to have re-answered first?"
Anold old and extremely dishonest ploy Keith
You have the list - you have responded to none.
If they are guilty of any one of those on the list, they are implicated in a major human rights crime - your refusal to respond is a clear indication that you know they are guilty of all of them - you really are a dishonest little man, aren't you - and not very bright, with it?
Sorry - this is far too easy - you're doing my work fror me
Have a good day now
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Sep 16 - 08:27 AM

So far, you have given us a blanket denial of every crime Israel has ever committed

No. I just put Israel's version of events, while you put the version promulgated by her enemies.
What is wrong with that?

I thought I had answered all your points Jim.
Which would you like to have re-answered first?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Sep 16 - 06:45 AM

"Jim, produce something, anything, that contradicts Israel's version of events."
Try answering the points I have put up Keith - they did all of those things unless you can prove otherwise.
So far, you have given us a blanket denial of every crime Israel has ever committed (pretty much the same with anything the British establishment has been accused of).
That is what has made you the laughing stock of this thread
"And, how many Labour members are still suspended Jim?Mus be guilty then =- lets' get a rope and find a tree.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Sep 16 - 06:37 AM

Jim, produce something, anything, that contradicts Israel's version of events.
You have taken us back over thirty years, and yet you still fail to make any case. You really have nothing on Israel at all except propaganda.

And, how many Labour members are still suspended Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Sep 16 - 05:53 AM

"Careful Keith, from the look of his posts they'll be carting him off in a straight jacket pretty soon."
Is that what they do to dissidents in Israel?
Wouldn't surprise me in the least.
So there we have it - a wheedlingly hand-wringing "Israel didn't do it" Dalek and a vitriol-spouting Antimesmite who blames the Jewish people for the crimes committed by Israel.
The Bullying Blusterer appears to have retired back under his bridge to lick his wounds
Nothing more on the series of events - which confirms that they are not disputed - not even here.
Case proven, I think.
Meanwhile - back at the ranch.
It seems Labour is pretty well off the hook - 1 possible case being taken further out of - how many members?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Sep 16 - 04:50 AM

Both of you have tried to smear her but have declined to substantiate a single accusation.
Nasty.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Sep 16 - 04:35 AM

Jim,
Robert Fisk's account contradicts it - Ellen Seigal, the eyewitness, has devoted her life to telling it as it was.

There is nothing in their original accounts that contradict Israel's version, and despite you protestations you have produced nothing either.

WHICH ONE OF YOUR "DECENT" COUNTRIES HAS EVER SUPPORTED ISRAEL'S ROLE IN THE MASSACRE - IGNORE THIS AND YOU CONFIRM THAT NO-ONE DOES

Not one held or holds Israel to be directly responsible. That is why you can find no single denunciation or imposition of sanctions from any of them.

Steve,
"He himself says he was expelled over the media reports of his antisemitim."
That's precisely what you said, Keith

Yes and it is precisely accurate. He says it was over the media reports, which were about his antisemitism, which he denies but the Party still expelled him.
I note that you have joined in the hate campaign against Ruth Smeeth.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 09 Sep 16 - 08:37 PM

Amazing how little self awareness some people have.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Sep 16 - 08:13 PM

I don't look good in anything. I'm the sort of bloke who can make a brand-new two hundred quid pair of Levis look like I just picked them up at the Boy Scouts' jumble sale.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Sep 16 - 07:05 PM

Same old nonsensical Boo Spew.

Tedious

Boring.

Bullshit.

vide turd wrestling, above.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 09 Sep 16 - 05:48 PM

You'd look good in one too, Shaw.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 09 Sep 16 - 05:37 PM

Straitjacket, idiot. Do try to get at least something right.

Blow me!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Sep 16 - 05:26 PM

"He himself says he was expelled over the media reports of his antisemitim."

That's precisely what you said, Keith. That he said he was antisemitic and that he was expelled over media reports of it. But he didn't, did he. He has consistently and correctly denied the accusations of antisemitism. He is a lifelong campaigner against all forms of racism and discrimination and has worked alongside Jews to fight antisemitism. You should be attacking the charlatan who unjustly accused him even though he didn't know she was a Jew, and who produced fake tears and a staged walkout. Like most of the anticorbynites she was out for trouble. And why not. After all, she is a professed supporter of the same Israeli regime which has spent months briefing against Corbyn and stoking up the dishonest campaign over Labour "antisemitism." She is a prime mover in the UK pro-Israel lobby and she opposes the boycott of Israeli goods. But no, she fits your agenda nicely and you'll fit your tissue of lies around people like her.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Sep 16 - 05:03 PM

Straitjacket, idiot. Do try to get at least something right.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 09 Sep 16 - 04:38 PM

Careful Keith, from the look of his posts they'll be carting him off in a straight jacket pretty soon.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Sep 16 - 02:58 PM

"Jim, there is no evidence that contradicts Israel's version,"
Yes there is Keith and you have been given it
You even called the eye-wirtnesses "liars" for contradicting Israel's story 0- thereby contradicting your own statement
If there was no dispute of Israel's version - what were they "lying" about.
I have given you a list of what Israel didand asked you to provide proof that it was not true - you refuse to do so, therefore confirming it all to be true
Robert Fisk's account contradicts it - Ellen Seigal, the eyewitness, has devoted her life to telling it as it was.
The experience of an Israeli Soldier who was traumatised after witnessing the entire three days was ade into a prizewinning animated film 'Waltz with Bashir' - the MacBride commission evidence contradicts it...... history condemns it as a massacre facilitated by the Israelis
You contradict it without evidence - you deny a massacre, as I said you would
One more time
The let the killers in, they provided arms, they turned escaping refugees back into the clutches of the killers, they provided lighting for three nights, they provided bulldozers to bury the bodies, they drove the killers to the airport
That is total implication in a mass murder.
If any of the things on this list are not true - please provide liinked evidence that they are not.
If these things do not show that Israel co-operated in the mass murder of 3,500 unarnmed refugees, prove it does not
Or
WHICH ONE OF YOUR "DECENT" COUNTRIES HAS EVER SUPPORTED ISRAEL'S ROLE IN THE MASSACRE - IGNORE THIS AND YOU CONFIRM THAT NO-ONE DOES
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Sep 16 - 01:38 PM

Steve,
. You said that Wadworth admitted to antisemitism.

I did not. I will be kind and say you are mistaken not lying.

. You said that the massacres were carried out by Arab militia, clearly implying that the Palestinians in the camps were massacred by their own people.

The massacres were carried out by Arab militias, and saying that does not imply "that the Palestinians in the camps were massacred by their own people" except that they are all Arabs.

They were massacred by Lebanese Christians who had tried for years to get Palestinians, who they hated, out of Lebanon.

The Palestinians also wanted the Christians out, and had perpetrated massacres in Christian villages.

Jim, there is no evidence that contradicts Israel's version, and no liberal democracy held them responsible. They would not continue friendly relations with a state guilty of such an atrocity, so do not pretend that responsibility is accepted by anyone but Israel's enemies .
Why not quote a decent government blaming Israel?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Sep 16 - 01:09 PM

And by the way
"Why do you assert shit like that when you know it is questioned and denied?"
Don't you know the first sign of a fascist is somebody who objects to people passing an opinnion because others disagree with is an indisputable sign of fascism - it appears that free speech doesn't register on your wavelength!!
But we know that already, don't we (please don't send me to The Tower!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Sep 16 - 12:59 PM

"No I did not."
Yes you did
"The evidence also supports Israel's version, which I have given."
Then produce it.
"Why do you assert shit like that when you know it is questioned and denied?"
Of courser it is denied - by Israel.
Even America warned Israel that they could no longer rely on their support after the last bloodbath
Produce your evidence
You have just been given a statement by an Israeli statesman linking the present regime with Fascism
A leading military man made the same comparison not so long ago.
A few years ago, ex heads of Mossad said the same.
An ex Israeli Prime Minister (Barak) has described what is happening in Israel as "fascist"
Holocause survivors and their families made the same accusation recently.
Accusations and warnings of Zionist Fascism go back to the birth of the State
Any State that places itself above criticism by accusing its critics of being "self-hating Jews" or "Antisemites" for criticising its policies, as Israel is doing, is well on the road to fascism - and that is without mentioning the massacre of non-combatant civilians.
It is most certainly not a "liberal democracy" if you don't happen to be Jewish - far from it.
Comparisons witf neighbouring states do not in any way negate Israel's behaviour
Don't you dare suggest that this accusation comes from me - you have totally ignored all the statements I have put up describing the Israeli regime of being "fascist".
I ask again - who supports Israel's role in the Sabra Shatila massacre - apart for Israel and atrocity supporters like you?
How do you explain a State that declares itself above criticism apart from a fascist one?
Any political regime which describes its critics as "SELF HATING JEWS" is a fascist one at war with its own people
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Sep 16 - 12:13 PM

Both lies are in your post. You said that Wadworth admitted to antisemitism. He did the precise opposite. You said that the massacres were carried out by Arab militia, clearly implying that the Palestinians in the camps were massacred by their own people. Well they were not. They were massacred by Lebanese Christians who had tried for years to get Palestinians, who they hated, out of Lebanon. A lie by omission, a deliberate misrepresentation in order to blacken the reputation of Arabs, is as bad a lie as any antisemitism. You have forfeited the right to criticise anyone else for bigotry, you hateful little man.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Sep 16 - 11:45 AM

Steve,
The murders at the camps were carried out by Lebanese Christians

That would be the '82 massacre.
The "Lebanese Christians" were a militia known as Phalanges and were Arabs, as were the other militias guilty of massacres in those camps.
Where is the lie?

"He himself says he was expelled over the media reports of his antisemitim" [sic], "he himself" DENIED Smeeth's egregiously false and trumped-up charge of antisemitism.

Yes he did, but the Party decided otherwise and expelled him.
Where is the lie Steve?

Jim,
When you first came up with this ludicrous excuse, you included Turkey among "decent, democratic countries"

No I did not.

Unless you can provide evidence that none of those things I have listed happened, it is as I said -

The evidence also supports Israel's version, which I have given.
I have not invented evidence, as I have exposed you doing!

Isreal's defence for right-wing extreme behaviour - totally unquestionable

Why do you assert shit like that when you know it is questioned and denied?

When the Israeli Justice Minister claimed that any criticism of Israeli policy was "Antisemitic", Israel joined prewar Germany in it's Deutschland Uber Alles club - it is now Israel Uber Alles
That is a blatantly antisemitic statement Jim. See Chakrabarti's report.

Israel is now becoming rexcognisably a fascist State
No. It is the only liberal democracy in the region.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Sep 16 - 10:45 AM

"I am sure everyone else understands it to mean liberal Western democracies"
When you first came up with this ludicrous excuse, you included Turkey among "decent, democratic countries" until it was pointed out to you that Turkey was a fact state - indicating that what you mean by a D. D. State is anybody who supports Israel.
It is a nonsense argument - America, who is Israel's main supporter is noted for past war crimes.
Unless you can provide evidence that none of those things I have listed happened, it is as I said - Israel has been part of a massive crime against humanity and, despite you protests, you are a supporter of war crimes and atrocities - end of story.
This excuse is probably one of the most stupidly dishonest arguments you have ever put up - beats historians you have never read by miles
"Eye witnesses" frequently lie against Israel."
Who has lied - the victims - the Israeli soldiers who were traumatised at what they say - the Jewish nurse......
Isreal's defence for right-wing extreme behaviour - totally unquestionable - covered by the world media - described by Human rights organisations - Medical Organisations - Members of the United Nations - Journalists - Eye witnesses..... as possible war crimes and atrocities, has been defended by Israel and nodding dogs like you as "Antisemitic lies"
This defence has gone so far as to demand the closure of the International Criminal Court.
When the Israeli Justice Minister claimed that any criticism of Israeli policy was "Antisemitic", Israel joined prewar Germany in it's Deutschland Uber Alles club - it is now Israel Uber Alles
Israel is now becoming rexcognisably a fascist State
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Sep 16 - 10:19 AM

"Is there nothing you won't lie about?"

The simple answer is no.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Sep 16 - 10:05 AM

The murders at the camps were carried out by Lebanese Christians under the gaze of the IDF. "Arab militias" is a completely disingenuous and wilful misrepresentation and you know it. You are trying to divert the blame for the Palestinian deaths at the camps on to their own side and away from the then Israeli regime. That is revisionism no less immoral than Holocaust denial.s

As for this:

"He himself says he was expelled over the media reports of his antisemitim" [sic], "he himself" DENIED Smeeth's egregiously false and trumped-up charge of antisemitism. Is there nothing you won't lie about?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Sep 16 - 09:15 AM

Steve, its past time you abjured turd-wrestling. Jim ditto.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Sep 16 - 09:09 AM

Steve,
You must be the only person in the world who thinks that the massacres were carried out by an "Arab militia." Absolute racist nonsense.

Arab militias Steve. An historical fact. Which of them do you doubt and I will give you chapter and verse.

I want you to tell me about a direct Labour source that says he was EXPELLED FOR ANTISEMITISM,

He himself says he was expelled over the media reports of his antisemitim.
I am sure you care as little for what I believe as I do you, but the Labour Party does not believe his protests and denials.
He is still suspended.

burble on about "decent democratic countries" as though there's some objective measure of what that's supposed to mean.

I am sure everyone else understands it to mean liberal Western democracies such as EU states, Canada, Australia, Scandinavian states, etc.
Now you understand my shorthand too.

Jim,
Tell me one country that has ever disputed Isreal's part in the Sabra Shatila massacre

See above Jim. No decent state would continue friendly relations with a state they thought guilty of such an atrocity.

She reported seeing the bulldozers on the site - the help with digging the graves is a known fact

No. She reported a single bulldozer by the camp entrance moving earth.
It is a made up lie to say "the help with digging the graves is a known fact." It is no such thing.

Human rights enquiries

Huh??

eye witness accounts have confirmed Israel's culpability

"Eye witnesses" frequently lie against Israel.
Remember the nurses on the Marmara who "saw" Israelis throwing bodies into the sea?
Remember the "witnesses" who "saw" bodies being trucked out of Jenin?
All lies

Not one reputable, independent group has absolved Israel from this massacre.
No decent democratic country holds them responsible.

You asked for proof that you support mass murder - ther - you have it AGAIN

There is no such proof. You certainly have not produced anything that challenges Israel's version of events.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Sep 16 - 07:10 AM

"It is not accepted by any decent democratic country, and certainly not documented."
Not ths again
Tell me one country that has ever disputed Isreal's part in the Sabra Shatila massacre
This is the most stupid and dishonest defence of State terrorism I have ever come across - POLITICIANS SILENCE - YOU HAVE TO BE JOKING!!
"She reported nothing about graves."
She reported seeing the bulldozers on the site - the help with digging the graves is a known fact
If the Israelis didn't bury them - who did - the killers were off the site within hours of the massacre, the refugees didn't bury them otherwise the whereabouts would have been discovered
The missing corpses is stated as a reason for there being no final figure on the massacre BECAUSE THE ISRAELIS BURIED THEM TO HIDE THEIR CRIME.
"No document or investigation has found Israel directly responsible."
The McBride Commission said they were probably guilty - Their own eport absolved themselves from major blme
Human rights enquiries and eye witness accounts have confirmed Israel's culpability
Not one reputable, independent group has absolved Israel from this massacre.
The let the killers in, they provided arms, they turned escaping refugees nback into the clutvces of the killers, they provided lighting for three nights, they provided bulldozers to bury the bodies, they drove the killers to the airport
That is total implication in a mass murder.
If any of the things on this list are not true - please provide liinked evidence that they are not.
If these things do not show that Israel co-operated in the mass murder of 3,500 unarnmed refugees, prove it does not
Your disgusting denial of this in no more than that - denial, making you an atrocity denier.
You asked for proof that you support mass murder - ther - you have it AGAIN
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Sep 16 - 06:10 AM

And you demand objectivity from everybody else whilst continuing to burble on about "decent democratic countries" as though there's some objective measure of what that's supposed to mean. You're a joke.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Sep 16 - 06:05 AM

You must be the only person in the world who thinks that the massacres were carried out by an "Arab militia." Absolute racist nonsense.

So Ruth Smeeth, with her fake tears and staged walkout (yes there were witnesses to that), Ruth Smeeth who is one of the leading lights in the pro-Israeli regime lobby in this country, Ruth Smeeth who campaigns to get boycotts of Israeli goods lifted, Ruth Smeeth who dearly wants Jeremy Corbyn out, called Wadworth antisemitic for remarks that made no reference whatsoever to Jews, and you believe her. Wadworth, a lifelong campaigner against all forms of racism and discrimination, who didn't know she was a Jew, on the other hand, simply must be antisemitic in order to fit your agenda, even though he's worked alongside Jews to fight antisemitism. I want you to tell me about a direct Labour source that says he was EXPELLED FOR ANTISEMITISM, your words Keith, not "because of media reports." As we all know, your idea of a "media report" is generally a shabby right-wing reinterpretation of the facts. You won't find a source because there isn't one. In other words, you're a liar.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Sep 16 - 04:48 AM

..promulgated by...

You two are being very nasty and personal. Try to be objective.
I do not deny the'82 massacre, but like all the massacres in those camps it was perpetrated by an Arab militia.

I have not told any lie. If you accuse please substantiate.
Jim has lied.

"American Jewish nurse, reported Israeli bulldozers clearing the site in order to dig mass graves."
She reported nothing about graves.

" the massacre of 3,500 unarmed civilians, fully investigated and documented."
No document or investigation has found Israel directly responsible.

They acknowledge indirect responsibility as the controlling force in Lebanon at the time, and that the danger of a revenge massacre should have been foreseen.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Sep 16 - 04:05 AM

Jim,
All documented and fully accepted except by the atrocity deniers

It is not accepted by any decent democratic country, and certainly not documented.

Steve,
Smeeth accused Wadsworth of antisemitism, and that is what all the media reports were about, and the party expelled him for it.

Keith, that your lying denial of what happened at Sabra and Shatila
I am just giving Israel's version of events, which all decent governments have accepted.
There are always two sides to a story. You give the version promulgated of Israel's enemies.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Sep 16 - 03:40 AM

Refugee camps as they are, are a stain on the Landscape
Refugees should not be housed in mud-swilling, tent-town slums for months or even years on end, and certainly not be subject to massacres as the residents of Sabra-Shatila were.
Please don't attempt to feign concern for people who, you have declared, have no right to the homeland they have been driven out of and whose decimation you have attempted to defend at the hands of the Israelis.
You and your fick friend would have to fill in application forms in order to be even considered human beings.
Keith had denigrated and undermined the rights of refugees (including those who have been forced off Traveller sites in Britain and have become Britain's own home-grown permanent refugees) and you are no different.
Here, both of you have attempted to open a long-settled debate in order to defend the perpetrators of the mass-murder of people you pretend to have concern for (don't think I've ever come across anything quite so stupid as 'it wasn't a massacre because we don't know how many were killed'.
You want to see a "stain on the landscape" - look at Calais, populated by refugees fleeing being slaughtered by despotic friends of Britain, (often by arms and equipment sold by us) in wars we have helped instigate.
If the Arab nations have done what you claim - it is exactly what we are doing now by refusing refuge to those fleeing oil wars and slavery-level poverty - also assisted by western greed.
If wartime Britons of the past had treated the fleeing Jews the way we are treating today's refugees. there would have been a few more digits added to the six million who died then.
These camps are not only "stains on the landscape" - they are living and ongoing proof of the inhumanity of the wealthy nations.
Your smug finger-pointing at third-world nations for doing what we are doing just about sums you up.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Sep 16 - 02:22 AM

To Shaw and Greg F.

In answer to your posts:

Keith A of Hertford - 08 Sep 16 - 02:59 PM

"Refugee camps a permanent stain on the landscape? Well what does that remark tell us about your sheer lack of humanity?"

It tells us much about the lack of humanity of their hosts.

Thank you Keith saved me the trouble.

The so called "Leaders" of the Arabs of Palestine, and the governments of so called "friendly" or "allied" neighbouring states have deliberately kept and held the "Palestinian" refugees in camps, in poverty and in despair to be used as they see fit as political pawns and a source of revenue from which they make millions - take a look at the personal fortunes amassed by Yasser Arafat and by Mahmoud Abbas.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Sep 16 - 02:22 AM

To Shaw and Greg F.

In answer to your posts:

Keith A of Hertford - 08 Sep 16 - 02:59 PM

"Refugee camps a permanent stain on the landscape? Well what does that remark tell us about your sheer lack of humanity?"

It tells us much about the lack of humanity of their hosts.

Thank you Keith saved me the trouble.

The so called "Leaders" of the Arabs of Palestine, and the governments of so called "friendly" or "allied" neighbouring states have deliberately kept and held the "Palestinian" refugees in camps, in poverty and in despair to be used as they see fit as political pawns and a source of revenue from which they make millions - take a look at the personal fortunes amassed by Yasser Arafat and by Mahmoud Abbas.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 08:13 PM

the most revolting, disgusting and hate-filled bile

That's our Professor!

vide 07 Sep 16 - 04:53 PM

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 07:38 PM

And I must say, Keith, that your lying denial of what happened at Sabra and Shatila is far and away the most revolting, disgusting and hate-filled bile that I've ever seen on this website by a country mile. You make me sick.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 03:58 PM

And what precisely was in those those " media reports," Keith? Can you quote me one "media report" that concluded without fear or favour that he made antisemitic remarks? No you cannot. The "full video with sound" contains nothing even remotely antisemitic. You are living in a dream world, Keith. Wadworth has spent most of his life campaigning against discrimination against minorities and is vehemently opposed to all forms of racism, including antisemitism, and has worked alongside Jews to fight prejudice. He said he didn't know that the highly-disreputable and dishonest Smeeth was Jewish. You don't believe him. Tough shit. Maybe we'll get him on the NEC then you'll have to believe him! 😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 03:32 PM

WHAT THIS PAIR ARE SUPPORTING
AND THIS
AND THIS
"Stop making idiotic ridiculous claims and exaggerated emotive assertions that do not even stand up to the most cursory examination."
And you produce evidence for uyour disgustingly inhuman denialks
Atrocity denying in the face of evidence at its very worst
The Sabra Shatila massace is a done deal - the Israeli's facilitated it, armed the killers, illuminated the killing, helped bury the bodies, and gave the killers safe passage out of the country.
All documented and fully accepted except by the atrocity deniers - and every claim backed up by produced evidence on this forum.
The response arrogant strutting denial and two people who never produce anything else.
Where is youir evideence - either of you (or don't you need eveidence again, as you have claimed in the past?
Jim Carroll
WHERE ISRAEL STANDS IN THE HUMAN RIGHTS LEAGUE

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 02:59 PM

Refugee camps a permanent stain on the landscape? Well what does that remark tell us about your sheer lack of humanity?

It tells us much about the lack of humanity of their hosts.
Those Arab countries who forced the refugees in camps to the second and third generation, denying them citizenship and employment rights.
Meanwhile Israel, on its tiny sliver of land, accepted and integrated many times more refugees than all those in the Arab's camps.