BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 May 16 - 07:56 PM

It is fairly silly to suggest that only Jews or Zionists should define Zionism.

It is also fairly silly to suggest that there is any more than a microscopic amount of antisemitism in the Labour party.

What is pretty obvious though is that a cry of "antisemite" goes up when anyone tries to defend the inhabitants (for about 2,000 years) of lands now claimed by the Israeli state from Israeli brutality. Those inhabitants try to defend themselves with sticks and stones while the IDF have F16s white phosphorus and if push comes to shove nuclear weapons.

On the other hand, the conservatives have been a byword for racism of all types for decades, at least since Enoch Powell, and still are judging by the attacks on Sadiq Kahn orchestrated by the Lizard of Oz.

Now the next thing is the MSM. the BBC in general, Kuenssberg in particular, and even papers that are purportedly left of centre have been consistently recycling conservative or bitterite propaganda for months (one example of which has been the "antisemitism" campaign). Despite this and however you spin it JC has done great things and True Labour now has an impressive slate, starting with four mayors, with fewer council seat losses than the con-servatives, a crushing majority in the London Assembly, and a respectable second place in Wales. Scotland will have to wait - the Blairities did so much damage up there that it may take years to heal. Imagine what could be done with fair media (or an effective new media platform).

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 May 16 - 07:37 PM

You have to play the game to an extent, Paul. I have a feeling that a large number of my posts irritate the mods but not quite sufficiently enough. Lately, Joe has developed this thing about being "on-topic," as if we've ever managed to achieve that around here ever. 😂 That gives the mods the excuse to zap us unpopular types - unless, of course, we manage to sneak some on-topic point into our invective. Also, it's a very good idea to say "your point is disappointingly disingenuous and relatively remote from the truth" rather than "you're a bloody liar." That helps. I fear that more hints and tips from me at this juncture would only get up the mods' noses, so I'll desist for now. Suffice to say that I agree that antisemitism is not peculiar to Labour, in fact I think that there's far less of it writ large than the pro-Israel camp would have us believe. If you want to see antisemitism embedded, look no further than the Catholic Church, which has a lot to answer for when we look at the history of antisemitism over the last two ot three hundred years or more. They make today's Labour Party look like a collection of benign fluffy bunnies by comparison. Thankfully, the Church is successfully addressing the issue these days, not before time.

Let's see if this one survives...

You see, Paul? Annoying, but on-topic!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Paul Burke
Date: 07 May 16 - 07:09 PM

Reely Weered: Steve Shaw take notice> I posted to thios thread, a fairly innocuous thing about antrisemtism not being peculiar to Labour, and bugger me it ain't here any more. Someone with An Agenda is "moderating" this forum (not surprising, since if I ndon't sign in IU get barred). The arseholes are in charge here!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 May 16 - 02:27 PM

Bobad under both his name and his anonymous alter ego has attacked and sniped at me and many others for years, Keith, including calling me a Jew-hater. I note your deafening silence when that happens. I don't call you a hypocrite, but you sometimes sound awfully like one.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 07 May 16 - 01:46 PM

"Like too many Jewish Londoners, I know from personal experience how it feels to be discriminated against because of your faith. Shamefully, anti-Semitism and Islamophobia are both on the rise in London. Synagogues have to hire private security guards – as do Jewish schools. It's simply not acceptable that this is happening in 21st century London." -- SADIQ KHAN

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 May 16 - 01:12 PM

Steve,
Keith, I will choose what points I want to address and what points I want to shut up about.

And I can not stop you Steve, but I will still remind you when you break the rules by attacking the person instead of the issues they raise.
You have continued your personal attacks on Bobad.
Please stop.

Re the issue of antisemitism and the left, this Labour supporting Jew has some thoughtful comments.
Here is an extract, but please read her whole piece.

"There is principled opposition to Israeli policy on the Left. But there is also group-think, bald anti-Semitism – calling Jews Nazis; claiming Jews control the media; calling for Israel, in any form, to be destroyed as a legitimate state – and terrible ignorance, as Ken Livingstone displayed on Thursday.

The intensity of the loathing for Israel – the Jewish state – in parts of the far Left is curious. Where is the similar loathing for hosts of countries who observe no human rights whatsoever, including Israel's Arab neighbours? Say this and you will be accused of changing the subject.

It does not answer the question. To answer the question, you must travel to early Christian Europe: to the Christ-killing. When does anti-Zionism become anti-Semitism? For me, when you call Israel an 'illegitimate state'. I would love to know if Jeremy Corbyn believes, like Naz Shah, that Israel should not exist."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/labours-anti-semitism-problem-should-sicken-any-voter---includin/

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 May 16 - 11:45 AM

well... London backfired on the tories aggressive divide and rule race campaign strategies... 😀

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: DMcG
Date: 07 May 16 - 02:44 AM

"One can no more separate it from Judaism than separate the City of London from Great Britain"

I'm not sure you appreciate are many people who strongly support Great Britain but think the City of London is a major problem for the country.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 May 16 - 07:43 PM

Beware of the troll, pfr. Engage him and you're on a hiding to nothing, believe me. He's been playing us along for ages, but has only now been forced out of the woodwork by the new members-only rule. Until Max changed the rule, you didn't see bobad in these threads, just the vile anonymous Guest. Funny that he's suddenly crawled out, now that he can't be a Guest any more, innit?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 06 May 16 - 07:31 PM

the worst problem with extremist zealots is they don't care who gets caught in the cross fire or is torn apart by shrapnel...

By extremist zealots I presume you are referring to Islamist terrorists like Hamas, Hezbollah, IS, Al Qaeda etc. I would have to agree with you on that.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 May 16 - 07:07 PM

Bobad - the worst problem with extremist zealots is they don't care who gets caught in the cross fire or is torn apart by shrapnel...

At least mudcat single-issue religious/political zealots are only trying to bore us to death... 😜

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 May 16 - 06:50 PM

That was to bobad, aka anonymous Guest-coward, by the way.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 May 16 - 06:48 PM

Absolute blinkered rubbish. Zionism and faith-based Judaism have nothing whatsoever to do with each other. Why, "Zionists" can't even agree among themselves what "Zionism" actually means. And please don't assume that "non-Jews" are always totally blind as to what goes on. We are just as capable as watching and reading the news and looking up sources as anyone else. As ever, your post is full of bilious, hateful nonsense. And I note that you have failed to deny that you were the troll-Guest who called us Jew-haters. Cor, I'll bet you're dying to call us that again, aren't you. But what a giveaway that would be, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 May 16 - 06:36 PM

If I can be bothered googling, it's not to find out anyone's religion or race,
but to trust my own judgement to consider if they are reactionary right wing arseholes or not.

Whether they be under educated brutal street thugs, or upper class academic tossers in ivory towers..

A right wing arsehole, is a right wing arsehole..... 😜

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 06 May 16 - 03:53 PM

If you think this is astonishing, hang around at Mudcat for a while and you will not only see Zionism defined by non Jews but antisemitism as well. This the regressive Left justifying their bigotry.

"It is astonishing to see figures on the hard Left of the British political spectrum presuming to define the relationship between Judaism and Zionism despite themselves being neither Jews nor Zionists. The likes of Ken Livingstone and Malia Boattia claim that Zionism is separate from Judaism as a faith; that it is purely political; that it is expansionist, colonialist and imperialist.

It is unclear why these people feel qualified to provide such an analysis of one of the axioms of Jewish belief. But let me be very clear. Their claims are a fiction. They are a wilful distortion of a noble and integral part of Judaism. Zionism is a belief in the right to Jewish self-determination in a land that has been at the centre of the Jewish world for more than 3,000 years. One can no more separate it from Judaism than separate the City of London from Great Britain."

Ken Livingstone and the hard Left are spreading the insidious virus of anti-Semitism: The Telegraph

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 06 May 16 - 03:35 PM

This was posted by my friend Fred Maroun, an Arab originally from Lebanon (for those who are Googling to see if he is a Jew in order to discredit him). Fred is an unapologetic supporter of Israel.

"This is heart-wrenching real-life story that says volumes about what is going on in the world today while the world's leaders look elsewhere - a growing and blind hatred that uses Israel to revive old anti-Semitisms. Please read this ESPECIALLY if you are not Jewish."

On becoming un-assimilated

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 16 - 09:44 AM

"He merges a paste from wiki with his own text with no quotes or accreditation."
I had considered asking this to be removed, but after thought, perhaps it is better that it remains where it is as an example of Keith's dishonest and underhand behaviour towards other members of this thread.
It has not place here and should have been brought up on the relevant thread where it could have been easily dealt with.
I do feel that Keith owes an apology to contributors to this thread, but I don't believe for one minute they will get it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 May 16 - 09:05 AM

Keith, I will choose what points I want to address and what points I want to shut up about. You do not get to dictate that to me or anyone else. I have better things to do than walk into your silly booby traps. Bobad, together with his anonymous alter ego, is a long-standing troll here, as he has ably demonstrated in this thread. Were I to be an Israeli citizen I would absolutely hate to think that people like him were "on my side." Jim is spot on when he describes the attitudes of people like him as antisemitic. People in power who are like him simply put Jewish people, especially the ones in Israel, in harm's way. They are certainly not angling for the peace and security that the Jewish people and all the other people in the Middle East deserve.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 16 - 07:27 AM

"Jim, I stand by my description of your post."
And I stand behind by my description of your behaviour - this has no place here - you want to make it on the relevant thread where I can treat it with the contempt it deserves, feel free - not behind my back elsewhere
You behaviour is beyond description
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 May 16 - 06:54 AM

Jim, I stand by my description of your post.
Do you deny that you merged a Wiki paste with your own text without quotes or accreditation?
If you do you are revealed as a liar.

Richard, you have chosen not to defend what appears to be an antisemitic claim that those board members had a "vested interest" in broadening the definition of antisemitism to gain more "influence."

Such a statement would lead to your expulsion from Labour if you were a member.

Richard,
hates the fact that the Times of Israel exposes that the EUMC definition has been discarded

I think that is just me.
I do not hate the fact of ToI report, I just point out that there has been no change to reflect that on the EUMC site.

If it has been discarded, how would anyone know?
Few read the ToI after all.
I don't.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 16 - 06:05 AM

"He merges a paste from wiki with his own text with no quotes or accreditation."
I had considered asking this to be removed, but after thought, perhaps it is better that it remains where it is as an example of Keith's dishonest and underhand behaviour towards other members of this thread.
It has not place here and should have been brought up on the relevant thread where it could have been easily dealt with.
I do feel that Keith owes an apology to contributors to this thread, but I don't believe for one minute they will get it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 16 - 05:52 AM

Ken Livingstone displays his ignorance of history and his antisemitism by once again repeating that Hitler supported Zionism"
The bit from the article in The Irish Times you choose to ignore.
While Livingston e in sot entirely correct, there is a degree f substance to his statement.

"The calls for his expulsion came after Livingstone said in a BBC interview that Hitler had supported Zionism "before he went mad and ended up killing six million Jews". The claim itself was clumsy but based on historical fact - Hitler originally sought to expel rather than exterminate European Jews. As part of this, he negotiated the Haavara Agreement with Zionist organisations which allowed some Jews to escape to Palestine with some of their property in return for Zionist opposition to the global boycott of German goods. This was hardly "support for Zionism", but Livingstone's critics went further with fellow Labour MPs accusing him of anti-Semitism."

"blaming Israel for IS attacks in Europe and the mass expulsion of Jews from the Arab world."
Making any criticism of Israel "Antisemitic" is not only responsible for these actions, but it has contributed to the disturbing rise in Antisemitism in the world today.
If Israel says that the Jewish people were responsible for facilitating Sabra/Shatila, or the massacres of civilians and destruction of Gaza, it's hardly surprising that some people are going to believe them.
If Israel's demands that the International Criminal Court be closed down are successful it is going to be very difficult to bring groups like Isis to justice.
Israel's cowardice in heaping their crimes on the heads of the Jewish people as a whole have painted targets on all Jews.
You have been part of this Bobad, in your continual accusing those who criticise Israel as hating Jews - you continue to target the Jewish people.
Jim Carroll
A reminder of some "self-hating Jews"
Holocaust survivors

http://www.rense.com/general59/ein.htm

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 16 - 05:52 AM

Ken Livingstone displays his ignorance of history and his antisemitism by once again repeating that Hitler supported Zionism"
The bit from the article in The Irish Times you choose to ignore.
While Livingston e in sot entirely correct, there is a degree f substance to his statement.

"The calls for his expulsion came after Livingstone said in a BBC interview that Hitler had supported Zionism "before he went mad and ended up killing six million Jews". The claim itself was clumsy but based on historical fact - Hitler originally sought to expel rather than exterminate European Jews. As part of this, he negotiated the Haavara Agreement with Zionist organisations which allowed some Jews to escape to Palestine with some of their property in return for Zionist opposition to the global boycott of German goods. This was hardly "support for Zionism", but Livingstone's critics went further with fellow Labour MPs accusing him of anti-Semitism."

"blaming Israel for IS attacks in Europe and the mass expulsion of Jews from the Arab world."
Making any criticism of Israel "Antisemitic" is not only responsible for these actions, but it has contributed to the disturbing rise in Antisemitism in the world today.
If Israel says that the Jewish people were responsible for facilitating Sabra/Shatila, or the massacres of civilians and destruction of Gaza, it's hardly surprising that some people are going to believe them.
If Israel's demands that the International Criminal Court be closed down are successful it is going to be very difficult to bring groups like Isis to justice.
Israel's cowardice in heaping their crimes on the heads of the Jewish people as a whole have painted targets on all Jews.
You have been part of this Bobad, in your continual accusing those who criticise Israel as hating Jews - you continue to target the Jewish people.
Jim Carroll
A reminder of some "self-hating Jews"
Holocaust survivors

http://www.rense.com/general59/ein.htm

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 May 16 - 05:48 AM

Wonderful irony - the tag team here, the one that supports Israel's expansionism and oppression of others - hates the fact that the Times of Israel exposes that the EUMC definition has been discarded - but loves it when the same newspaper supports baseless allegations of antisemitism (for example those against Jackie Walker - not my late wife of the same name, obvs, but a lifelong antiracist).

In the meantime, in the elections, Labour is doing FAR better than the fash, the MSM, the con-servatives, the bitterites and fellow travellers predicted.

Remember "Jeremy Corbyn must resign if Labour loses 200 seats (or 150 seats)"? Looks like Labour will lose 50 seats or fewer, and the bellwether seats in the UK (for example Crawley) show significant swings to Labour.

I'd prefer to wipe the con-servatives out (although I have no AK47, so I speak figuratively or electorally) but this looks very like steady true Labour progress under a true and honest man. This may well accelerate when the battlebus prosecutions really bite.

Must go and rest - I have strep throat again and it was NOT a good night. Back on the prescribed Class As.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 16 - 05:27 AM

Ken Livingstone displays his ignorance of history and his antisemitism by once again repeating that Hitler supported Zionism"
The bit from the article in The Irish Times you choose to ignore.
While Livingston e in sot entirely correct, there is a degree f substance to his statement.

"The calls for his expulsion came after Livingstone said in a BBC interview that Hitler had supported Zionism "before he went mad and ended up killing six million Jews". The claim itself was clumsy but based on historical fact - Hitler originally sought to expel rather than exterminate European Jews. As part of this, he negotiated the Haavara Agreement with Zionist organisations which allowed some Jews to escape to Palestine with some of their property in return for Zionist opposition to the global boycott of German goods. This was hardly "support for Zionism", but Livingstone's critics went further with fellow Labour MPs accusing him of anti-Semitism."

"blaming Israel for IS attacks in Europe and the mass expulsion of Jews from the Arab world."
Making any criticism of Israel "Antisemitic" is not only responsible for these actions, but it has contributed to the disturbing rise in Antisemitism in the world today.
If Israel says that the Jewish people were responsible for facilitating Sabra/Shatila, or the massacres of civilians and destruction of Gaza, it's hardly surprising that some people are going to believe them.
If Israel's demands that the International Criminal Court be closed down are successful it is going to be very difficult to bring groups like Isis to justice.
Israel's cowardice in heaping their crimes on the heads of the Jewish people as a whole have painted targets on all Jews.
You have been part of this Bobad, in your continual accusing those who criticise Israel as hating Jews - you continue to target the Jewish people.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 May 16 - 04:59 AM

Steve, just answer his points if you can.
You can not silence anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 May 16 - 04:59 AM

Steve, just answer his points if you can.
You can not silence anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 May 16 - 05:16 PM

Yeah,sure. You're sussed. A period of silence from you would be nice. How about five years, Guest?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 05 May 16 - 04:37 PM

Ken Livingstone displays his ignorance of history and his antisemitism by once again repeating that Hitler supported Zionism, and blaming Israel for IS attacks in Europe and the mass expulsion of Jews from the Arab world.

The Times of Israel

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 May 16 - 04:06 PM

Keith, bobad calls people Jew haters. Open your eyes, please. No-one is picking on him. Just look at his posts in this thread. Bobad/Guest picks on anyone who even remotely criticises Israel or defends Palestinians. That is not debate, Keith. As I said, knowing you, it's hardly surprising that you side with him.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 May 16 - 04:01 PM

The issue was mentioned in my previous post. Perhaps if you didn't try and twist other people words we wouldn't have this problem. The ball in this case is firmly in your court.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 16 - 03:14 PM

More personal attack without reference to the issues.
Please stop.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 May 16 - 03:04 PM

Are you really THAT thick ??

Don't bother to answer we already know the answer.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 16 - 03:01 PM

Rag,
How can you equate one person saying "And the vested interest of the members of that board" to someone saying "those Jews"

Because thes are the groups that comprise the board.
All Jewish except the first one.

INTER-PARLIAMENTARY COALITION FOR COMBATING ANTISEMITISM        

EUROPEAN JEWISH CONGRESS

B'NAI BRITH INTERNATIONAL        

CEJI – A JEWISH CONTRIBUTION TO AN INCLUSIVE EUROPE

Richard said,
"And the vested interest of the members of that board is that the the wider the definition of antisemitism, the more influence they can gain."

What vested interest could the non-Jewish group have?
None.
He was accusing those Jewish groups of using the board to increase Jewish influence.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 16 - 02:50 PM

Steve, look at this post of Jim's.

Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 30 Apr 16 - 03:38 AM

He merges a paste from wiki with his own text with no quotes or accreditation.

Why pick on Bobad?

He is using quotes to argue his case on the issues.
He does not make personal accusations against anyone.
Please stop doing it yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 May 16 - 02:47 PM

Do you ever wonder professor why many people on this site have such a low opinion of you.

How can you equate one person saying "And the vested interest of the members of that board" to someone saying "those Jews"

Shhhhhhhhhheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesh

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 May 16 - 02:38 PM

Bobad/anonymous ex-Guest does not "discuss issues," Keith. He copies and pastes and he snipes. If you disagree, give me an example of his "discussing issues," please. I'm not exactly surprised that you ally yourself with him, by the way. Speaks volumes, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 16 - 02:28 PM

EUMC should not leave it on their site if it is not in force.
What was your point about some "Zionist" site?

Why are you and Steve making this personal against Bobad?
Can we not just discuss the issues like he does?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 16 - 02:10 PM

"It also remains on the EUMC "
Don't get your point
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 16 - 02:08 PM

Steve

I didn't see Richard saying "those Jews" - did you, Keith?

He said, "And the vested interest of the members of that board ..."

The board was made up of Jewish groups.
Those were the Jews he said were using it for "more influence."

Jim,
"It remains on display on the current Zionism on line site"

Does it?
It also remains on the EUMC site, which suggests it is still current.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 May 16 - 10:40 AM

From his posts

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 May 16 - 10:22 AM

Those are not the words of bobad. Google any selection from his post and you'll find that he's copied and pasted stuff from all over the place with just a bit of light editing. He has form, both as bobad and as the anonymous former guest who plagued any thread remotely connected to Israel/Palestine/Islam with bigotry and slurs. It's either copy and pasting a load of stuff or else it's the kind of sniping we've seen from him in this thread. The style, the content and the modus operandi are exactly the same.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 16 - 09:43 AM

David Hirsch is an activist for Israeli policy, particicularly opposing the boycott of Israeli goods)
"But there is antisemitism on the left"
All those points have been answered and have nothing to do with The Left, which basically adherse to an anti-racist policy (exceptions to every shade of political opinion, of course)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 05 May 16 - 09:09 AM

this current crisis is a storm, manufactured by pro Israeli Government regime supporters, to silence criticism of Israel and to benefit the Tories.

David Hirsh (born 29 September 1967) is a Lecturer in Sociology at Goldsmiths College, University of London, and the founder of Engage, a campaign against academic boycotts of Israel.[1]

Hirsh is a graduate of City University, London. He holds an M.A. in Philosophy and Social Theory and a PhD from University of Warwick. He wrote his dissertation on Crimes Against Humanity and International Law.[2]

Hirsh won the Philip Abrams Prize for the best first book in sociology from the British Sociological Association in 2004 for his book Law Against Genocide: Cosmopolitan trials. The book, an argument concerning the significance of "cosmopolitan law", also contains a full account of the trial of Anthony Sawoniuk in Britain in 1999 for crimes committed as part of the Holocaust in Belarus in 1942.

As a student of contemporary antisemitism, Hirsh is known for coining the term "Livingstone Formulation," after its effective use by the mayor of London, Ken Livingstone. In Hirsh's formulation, when an individual like Livingstone, with alleged antisemitic attitudes is confronted with this allegation, he immediately reverses the charge, accusing his accuser of "playing the antisemitic card" to stifle debate

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 May 16 - 08:55 AM

First of all - I haven't a clue who David Hirsh is - and why should I... ???.

Secondly it's not clear if any of that is you talking Bobad, or if it's entirely the words of Hirsh.

But most significantly, it actually serves to deepen my suspicions that
" this current crisis is a storm, manufactured by pro Israeli Government regime supporters, to silence criticism of Israel and to benefit the Tories.


It's seriously wrong that a bunch of organized vociferous intellectual pro Israeli zealots
may be so maliciously intent on discrediting and punishing the UK Labour Party.
Not giving a shit about the callous harm that will be caused to many thousands of ordinary hard pressed hard up Labour voting families....

Right I'll be away for the rest of the day taking my elderly mum to see a Doctor at an provincial health centre,
which is under resourced and under staffed, and at near crisis breaking point.
I expect we will be queuing for some time.

Not that the Baroness and Mr Hirsh probably care that much for our day to day living conditions.... 😫

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 05 May 16 - 08:02 AM

But there is antisemitism on the left. The campaign to exclude Israelis, and only Israelis, from the global academic, sporting, artistic and economic community is antisemitic. It singles out Israel for unique punishment and it finds all Israelis, and the Jews who are said to support them, guilty of the crimes, real or imagined, of their state. Huge and emotional hostility to Israel creates antisemitic discourse and fosters an institutional antisemitism of norms and practices in the left. This has been manifested recently in a number of clear examples.

    The election to leader of the Labour Party of Jeremy Corbyn:

       Presented a show on Press TV, Iran's antisemitic propaganda channel.
       Was Patron of the "Palestine Solidarity Campaign" which fights for a boycott of Israel and which tolerates antisemitism within its ranks.
       Says that Hamas and Hezbollah are dedicated to the good of the Palestinian people and to social and political justice.
       Jumped to the defence of antisemites, Raed Salah who indulged in medieval blood libel and Stephen Sizer who said that Israel was behind 9/11.
       Does not say anything when a 911 truther and associate of David Duke, who he's sharing a platform with, defends Palestinian suicide bombing.
       Continued to support "Deir Yassin Remembered" even when it was well known that it was run by a Holocaust Denier.
       Agreed to speak alongside Carlos Latuff, 2nd prize winner in Ahmadinejad's Holocaust denial cartoon competition.
       Agreed to speak alongside Azzam Tamimi, who said that he'd like to have been a suicide bomber against Israel.
       Addressed a LaRouche front organisation in Australia.
       Called for an official inquiry into "pro-Israel" influence in the Foreign Office.
       Celebrated the anniversary of the Iranian revolution at an event called to "commemorate the auspicious anniversary of the victory of the Islamic Revolution in Iran".

    Norman Finkelstein's cartoon depicting the ethnic cleansing of Israel and the 'transportation' of all Jews there to America was shared on Facebook by Naz Shah, who was to become a Labour MP and also by a number of Labour councillors including Blackburn mayor Salim Mulla, who also said that Israel was behind ISIS, and Ilyas Aziz who also posted images appearing to call for Jews to "stop drinking Gaza blood".

    Ken Livingstone:

       Said that Hitler supported Zionism. What better way to bait Jews than to compare them to Nazis?
       In 1982 the paper that Livingstone edited ran a cartoon depicting the Prime Minister of Israel, Menachem Begin, wearing a Nazi uniform and doing a straight-arm salute, standing on a pile of skulls.
       Hosted Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi at City Hall. Qaradawi says that Hitler put the Jews in their place; he described the Holocaust as both exaggerated and also as divine punishment.
       On March 21 2012, a group of Jewish Labour supporters reported that at "various points in the discussion Ken used the words 'Zionist', 'Jewish' and 'Israeli', interchangeably, as if they meant the same, and did so in a pejorative manner." Livingstone told the group that Jews are rich and so are not likely anyway to vote Labour.
       Ken Livingstone was paid to present a programme on Iran's antisemitic propaganda channel, Press TV.
       Persistently put down a Jewish journalist by accusing him of being like a German war criminal.
    A co-chair of Oxford University Labour Club resigned, saying that a 'large proportion' of members had 'some kind of problem with Jews'. Jews were belittled by the epithet 'Zios' and taunted by the song: 'Bombs over Tel Aviv'.
    The election of Malia Bouattia as President of NUS. She supports the campaign of murder against Jewish civilians in Israel. She refers to a university with a strong Jewish society is a 'Zionist outpost'. She talks about "mainstream Zionist-led media outlets". She supports a boycott of Israel but of nowhere else.
    John Mann, Chair of the All-Party Group against Antisemitism: "I've had a number of highly precise threats of violence. I'm going to report this to the police. They are threatening me with physical assault — 'when I see you I will be punching you' and worse than that. This shows the mind-set of the mob."
    Muhammed Butt, who is the Lead for Equalities at London Councils, shared a clip on social media that appeared to show a young girl from the Palestinian Authority in a conflict with an Israeli soldier. The clip was captioned at the bottom with the words, "Israel is a terrorist state like ISIS."
    Shah Hussain, a Labour councillor in Burnley, tweeted at Israeli footballer Yossi Benayoun: "you are a complete and utter plonker, you and your country doing the same thing Hitler did to ur race in ww2".
    Khadim Hussain, a Labour councillor and a former Lord Mayor of Bradford, resigned from the party after sharing a Facebook post that said: "Your school education system only tells you about Anne Frank and the six million Zionists that were killed by Hitler."
    John McAuliffe: "The Holocaust has been the most useful political tool of the Zionist government in Israel to establish a financial racket in the West, whereby Israel receives an unlimited sum for the duration of its existence."
    Gerry Downing called for Marxists to 'address the Jewish question'.
    In 2011, Labour MP Sir Gerald Kaufman turned to a neighbour on the Commons benches as pro-Israel MP Louise Ellman rose to speak and muttered: 'Here we are, the Jews again'. He has a record of talking about the influence of 'Jewish millionaires' in UK politics and how the Israeli government exploits Holocaust guilt as justification for their murder of Palestinians.
    In 2014, Vicki Kirby, a Labour Parliamentary candidate, was warned by the party for posting antisemitic tweets. 'We invented Israel when saving them from Hitler, who now seems to be their teacher,' she wrote. She also asked why ISIS was not attacking the 'real oppressor', 'evil' Israel. She also tweeted that Jews have "big noses" and "slaughter the oppressed".
    In 2011 Labour MP Paul Flynn had said that Matthew Gould, Britain's first Jewish ambassador to Israel, had "divided loyalties".
    In 2003, Tam Dalyell, accused the Prime Minister Tony Blair of "being unduly influenced by a cabal of Jewish advisers".
    There are press reports that Labour has secretly suspended fifty more Labour members for issues connected with antisemitism.
    Labour's Murad Qureshi, who has already served 12 years on the London Assembly, re-tweeted the claim that Katie Hopkins "is proof positive you can get away with deeply offending anyone in this country as long as they're not Jewish."

It is wrong to say that there is no antisemitism in the Labour Party, and that this current crisis is a storm, manufactured by Jews, to silence criticism of Israel and to benefit the Tories.

These are not random bad apples in a Labour barrel. They are important because they are manifestations of a way that many people, including the leader, thinks about Israel and the Jews who relate to Israel.

David Hirsh

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 16 - 07:12 AM

The Israeli Embassy in Ireland had been systematically targeting critics of Israel, on occasion, reaching the level of hysteria following particularly vicious acts of atrocity by its regime.
They have gleefully jumped on the Anti-Labour bandwagon and Israeli are now mounting a campaign to debunk Landin and Ronin's relatively non-confrontational article.
This interesting letter appeared in the Irish Times this morning:

Criticism of Israel v anti-Semitism
Sir, - The current crisis facing the Labour Party in the UK over Ken Livingstone's comments have brought anti-Semitism into focus.
In this light, the piece by David Landy and Ronit Lentin (Opinion, May 2nd) is a timely insight into the lengths the Israeli state will go to in order to tarnish critics of its policies.
Europe has a troubled record on anti-Semitism and thus it is vital that, on any occasion it manifests itself, it needs to be dealt with abruptly and forcibly. However the accusation of anti-Semitism, when abused, is a powerful one which can ruin a career and render solid arguments impotent.
In recent times the Israeli government and its supporters, under pressure from the success of the BDS (boycotts, divestment and sanctions) movement, have begun to throw the accusation of anti-Semitism liberally at anybody who dares question its policies and stands up for justice for the Palestinian people. Not only does this apply to non-Jews but also to the many Jews who are vocal critics of the Israeli state, such as the noted US academic Norman Finkelstein who lost many family members in the concentration camps.
This is a dangerous precedent as it not only diminishes the fight against anti-Semitism but also undermines rational arguments for a just and peaceful solution to the ongoing Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
There is a serious vacuum in the peace process into which extremism is rushing on both sides. Creating an atmosphere whereby critical analysis of the behaviour of the Israeli state is subject to accusations of anti-Semitism does nothing to help find a secure future for Israel or Palestine.
-Yours, etc,
BARRY WALSH, Blackrock, Cork.

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 May 16 - 06:44 AM

So it's ok and acceptable then to admire and promote the Baroness's smug dismissive disparaging prejudiced sweeping statements about 'the left'...

..whilst sweeping negative published statements putting down any other whole classification of diverse people
can justifiably get the culprit in a huge mess of trouble and condemnation in the news media....?????? 😕

funny old world... innit... 😜

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 May 16 - 06:00 AM

"Are you saying that those Jews used the board as a means to gain more influence for Jews?
Is there a problem with Jews having too much influence?"

I didn't see Richard saying "those Jews" - did you, Keith? Would it have helped had he said "those representatives of Israel's interests" or "those who were pro-Israel?" Your manner of debate is disingenuous and dishonest.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 16 - 05:15 AM

"I would point out that I have never done any such thing."
Worse than that
"Richard, if it was dropped three years ago, why is it still on the website unchanged?
"It remains on display on the current Zionism on line site" and that aspect of the defintion has never been challenged.
Israel claims there is no currently accepted official definition of Antisemitism so blaming the Jews for Israeli terrorism seems a pretty fair one as a rule of thumb.
Jim Carroll