BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 May 16 - 02:53 PM

"Come on, give us a list of them, Keith."
Sorry to be critical Steve, but you're usually much quicker on the uptake than this - you really don't appear to have grasped Keith's rule-book.
When Israel commits an act of terror you wait to see which politician of which "decent country" (carefully vetted, of course) condemns it as a war crime.
If one does, they cease to be a "decent country" because they have condemned Israel, which makes them "Anti-Semitic".
If the politicians of no (carefully vetted) "decent country" condemns it, no matter what it is, (the massacre of women and children, the facilitating of the mass slaughter of 3.500 unarmd refugees, the use of chemical weapons of fragment missile like flechettes), it can't possibly be described as a war crime.
As Keith doesn't believe in Human Rights organisations such as Amnesty or mercy organisations such as Médecins Sans Frontières, you can't possible take their word that war crimes have been committed - ergo, Israel has never committed a war crime.   
Are you 'fick or what Steve - have you never read 'Catch 22'?
The fact that war crimes and acts of state terrorism are defined by what it is, not by which State's politicians says nothing about it seem to be beyond the comprehension of 'humanists' like Keith.
Wake up there boy!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 May 16 - 01:15 PM

We've had this "decent countries" malarkey from Keith before. Come on, give us a list of them, Keith. Start with your top twenty...

(Blimey, Keith's even got me trying to set Keithly booby traps now...)

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 May 16 - 11:39 AM

"You are accusing all Jews of Israeli war crime and ats of terror.
No-one is, and no even accuses Israel of " war crime and acts of terror."
Where have I ever done that - I make a point of referring to The Israeli regime - you, on the other hand defend the unchallenged atrocities and war crimes of that regime without exception.
Parsonally, I don't give a shit what the politicians of your "decent democratic countries" condemn and don't condemn - many of them support and sell arms to terrorist states (another thing you have defended in the past) and countries like the U.S. have proved capable of committing war crimes and atrocities .
I accuse the Israeli regime of committing war crimes and atrocities - you say that is Antisemitic, which makes you an Antisemite.
By the way, your claim that equating Israeli behavior with Nazism is Antisemitic comes from the European definition which you have said is invalid and outdated.
You can't pick the bits you like as valid and reject the bits you don't
Oh - you Antisemites are silly!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 May 16 - 11:06 AM

Can't open your link to read the full article Boo-boo, as I am not longer a subscriber to Haaretz, but I did find related article on the debate.
Describing criticism of Israeli policy as Antisemitic is Antisemitic - can't get around that one.
Einstein's Group letter directly suggesting the rise of Zionist Fascism was probably the earliest one linking the terms.
Jim Carroll

Jewish community must 'welcome' anti-Zionist, pro-BDS Jews, Beinart says– but Shavit says, Excommunicate them

Peter Beinart called on the Jewish community last week to admit anti-Zionist and pro-BDS Jews. These young Jews are supporting BDS (boycott, divestment and sanctions of Israel) because they hear "the voice of Sinai," he said.
Ari Shavit, the Israeli author who has become a celebrity in American Jewish spaces, sharply contradicted Beinart. He said that these young Jews must be kept out of community spaces because BDS is an "evil, sophisticated" campaign that is filled with anti-Semitism.
The difference between the two men reflects differences over the definition of Judaism and what Jews owe to their community. Shavit described Judaism as support for Israel. Beinart described Judaism as an ancient and living religion that has often contained anti-Zionist strains.
The two writers spoke June 12 on an all-Zionist and mostly-right-wing panel about "What's Next for Israel?" at the 92nd Street Y, an organization that has censored Palestinian and anti-Zionist voices. They were introduced by Thomas Kaplan, a billionaire who has supported Israel and has investments that could profit from a war with Iran.
At the end of the discussion, Beinart challenged the hall filled with 500 mostly older folks (and surely almost all Jews, and paying $40 a head) to include anti-Zionists at the table:
"And the last thing I'll say and this is the most challenging I think maybe for most people, including for me: Our tent, our Jewish community, our proverbial Seder table, is going to have to include the Jewish kids who are not Zionists, including the Jewish kids who are involved in the BDS movement. Because Jewish kids are overrepresented in the BDS movement. You may find that frightening beyond belief, you may find it terrifying. And I understand why you do, but it's true."
Beinart then related an anecdote of a campus meeting of Students for Justice for Palestine where most of the group was Jewish, and continued:
"Every generation hears the voice of Sinai anew. This generation– one way it is hearing it makes us radically uncomfortable. We cannot afford to tell them that they are not welcome in Jewish spaces, because then we alienate them not only from Israel but from being Jews as well. We need to welcome them in, we need to argue with them, we need to challenge them, we need to be challenged by them. We may be entering– I take no pleasure in this, I find it a terrifying reality– We are entering, An era in which there is no longer going to be a Zionist consensus in the U.S. Especially if Israel continues on its current path. We will have to remain a Jewish community in that environment and we will have to be welcoming even to those people on the far left or the far right whose views we find deeply, deeply upsetting."
Shavit responded sharply. He disagreed with Beinart because of his experiences touring campuses in the 18 months since his book My Promised Land came out.
"I've been there. I've been listening to them," he said of the BDS supporters. "I'm for free discussion… but BDS in so many places has serious anti-Semitic dimensions….I've seen young liberal Jews in such a state because they are aware of that." (Many Jewish students have said that BDS makes them fearful.)
Shavit said what was needed was a new partnership between American Jews and Israeli Jews that would change Israel's image in the world. He called it the David challenge: "We have to convince ourselves and others that we are the David. We cannot be perceived as the Goliath."
How will Israel pull that off? If young American Jews and Israeli Jews worked to bring social justice in Israel and helped Palestine too, it would put Israel on "the right side of history" and show the world, "we are right and we stand for the right kind of things."
He called it a "Martin Luther King Zionism": because Martin Luther King fought for his people and for universal values too. "We are the universal tribe," Shavit explained.
American Jews will want to participate in this partnership because they face an "existential" challenge: they depend on Israel to maintain their Jewish identity. So this is the partnership:
"You help us survive there, we help you survive here."
(I must say here, I cannot imagine a more dispiriting view of religion and affiliation than Shavit's.)
Throughout the conversation, Beinart stood up for a view of Jewish religion that was based on ancient traditions and texts– and is therefore very conservative (and not my cup of tea)– but that is freed of the burden of Zionism. He said movingly that it upset him to see gleaming new Holocaust memorials in cities where the Jewish school doesn't have a gym or a science lab, and people can't afford to send their kids there without getting a second mortgage. Our community cares more about the dead than the young, he said. He said that the only place he can find translated Torah portions from Genesis and Exodus to give to his children is from ultra-Orthodox publishers in Borough Park, Brooklyn.
Shavit seemed to hold it over Beinart and Dan Senor, a second panelist, that they send their children to the Heschel school in New York. His children do not need a Jewish education to know that they are Jewish; no, that is "easy" for them.
"My 11 year old and 6 year old– they don't go to the shul in their life. Don't go to Heschel. They're Jewish." But American Jews "have to choose to be Jewish every day."
Really he was talking about Jewish nationality, and the definition of Israel as a Jewish state. Throughout his comments about Israeli political life, Shavit never included Palestinians as equal members of that society.
It was Beinart who stood up for universal rights. He said that Israel has a "security subcontractor in the West Bank" – the Palestinian Authority – "which allows them to pretend that the West Bank doesn't exist in the elections"—a point you hear at SJP meetings all the time. And he said that only conservatives really participate in the Israeli elections because Palestinians are the left and though they compose 20 percent of Israeli society they are written out of the governing coalitions (a point I have been making for many years).
He said that because older American Jews never speak to Palestinians, they have little idea why Israel's image is shifting. He knows why. The BDS movement is growing because young Americans are attracted by Palestinian-Americans' message. These advocates are "very impressive, very articulate, deeply American," and they don't believe in a Jewish state.
"I never met a Palestinian who believed that Israel's existence is anything but a tragedy and a disaster. Who in their fantasy world would have Israel not exist."
By deeply American, he said he meant that they don't have "thick accents," they don't see America as a foreign world. They are particularly effective with LGBT and non-white audiences. And when they say all they want is "one person, one vote" and equality, young people agree with them. Meanwhile, the pro-Israel coalition on campus is "Hillel and the college Republicans."
Beinart was repeatedly applauded for his remarks.
He struggles openly with his tribal affiliation. Shavit does not. The Israeli is surely an excellent writer who composes ideas in an elegant compelling manner. That is why his book did so well here, why he is feted by synagogues across the country. He is a storyteller who knows how to place himself in the edge of the frame; and he has been honest about the ethnic cleansing of Lydda during the Nakba, the chapter the New Yorker published.
But his politics left me cold, and will surely leave a lot of young Jews cold. They are essentially tribal politics. And the real point of his remarks was that the audience must maintain the Israel lobby so that Jews can carry on their society in Israel (because Israel utterly depends on a superpower's support).
Shavit began the evening by saluting the miracle of American Jewish life alongside the miracle that is Israel. He didn't know America before he came for the publication of his book, he said. That was a huge emotional event for him: the launching of his international career, with "my beloved friend" the editor of the New Yorker doing downfield blocking for him. He told a story of seeing his book being sold as a Hanukkah gift on the Upper West Side and being so moved that he sat down in a cafe to have a glass of wine and make "my first and last tweet."
Often that night his understanding of US cultural and political life struck me as self-involved and provincial. Certainly his view of religion is.
BTW, all the panelists at the Y wrung their hands over the young Jews. The hall was filled with older ones. A social revolution is taking place inside Jewish life, in which those who feel true solidarity with Palestinians are the primary movers. There can be no doubt of the truth of Beinart's statement, the era of Zionist consensus is over.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 May 16 - 10:31 AM

Until this thread the words "anti-Zionist & anti-Semitism" have never been included in my vocabulary

I knew the words existed, but had, and still have no practical use for them.

Back out in the real world I will continue to rely on the word "Racism"

It's powerful in it's strength of meaning, and well understood.

Yes, I am aware fruitcake academics and activists will have prefab pre-scripted pejorative 'accusations'
prepared for anyone like me who is content and assured in remaining to consider anti-Zionist & anti-Semitism
as sub classifications within the umbrella heading "Racism"...

but sod 'em, that's their egocentric problem..
I've got more important issues & priorities to be concerned about.... 😣

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 May 16 - 10:23 AM

Can't pay, won't pay, won't read. And again, no comment from you. Not debate really is it, ex-Guest? And what bit you've posted is a pack of lies and distortions, all of which have already been addressed in the thread. I'll leave it brief.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 11 May 16 - 09:57 AM

"The anti-Zionist mutation of anti-Semitism is particularly pernicious, because it denies not only the right of the Jews to a state, but their very identity as a people. Very few anti-Zionists hold that Judaism as a religion should be eradicated. That distinction is, at the same time, their fig leaf and their weapon. By "tolerating" Judaism as a religion, they can try to shake off the designation of anti-Semitism, a curious attempt since they are trying to lecture the Jewish people about the nature (the negation, actually) of our own identity. The claim is that Judaism is a legitimate religion, but that the Jews are not a legitimate nation—just a collection of people of other nationalities who practice the religion of Judaism, who, therefore, are not entitled to a nation-state. This desire to dictate the parameters of Jewish identity to the Jewish people may be worse than traditional Christian anti-Semitism, or even than some forms of racial anti-Semitism, neither of which deny the Jews our place among the nations, hate us though they may."


Anti-Zionism Is Indeed a Form of anti-Semitism

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 May 16 - 09:38 AM

An excellent letter in today's Guardian, signed by over 80 British Jews. Note the insistence on the separation of Zionism from religion. Spot on. And, Keith, as you always seem to want balance when we discuss Israel, how about the point in the letter about the serious anti-Muslim racism in our politics? Never seems to come up much, does it? In your perpetual attempts to make Jews sound like victims, what price your sense of unfairness and lack of balance now? These are British Jews calling for fairness, balance, and a sense of proportion with regard to history. Are they all misguided, Keith?

Anti-Zionism does not equate to antisemitism

In his Daily Telegraph article on which you report (Chief rabbi: Labour has severe problem with antisemitism, theguardian.com, 4 May), Rabbi Ephraim Mirvis said the antisemitism crisis engulfing Labour had "lifted the lid" on bigotry.
He joins in the sensationalist allegations of antisemitism in the Labour party, where the headlines' decibel level is in inverse proportion to the evidence supporting them. Ignoring the more serious anti-Muslim racism in electoral politics, Rabbi Mirvis attacks the Labour party by launching a defence of Zionism which turns it from a political ideology (that can be supported or opposed) into a religion that is beyond question. We British Jews reject this categorically.
Mirvis attacks as "antisemitic" those who separate Judaism from Zionism. Yet most Jews who perished in the Holocaust were indifferent to Zionism and many opposed it. In the last municipal elections in Europe's largest Jewish community, in Poland, just before the second world war, Poland's Jews voted overwhelmingly for the secular, anti-Zionist, socialists of the Bund, while Zionist parties got derisory votes. Is Rabbi Mirvis recasting those victims of the Holocaust posthumously as enemies of Judaism and therefore as antisemites?

Alexei Sayle, Leon Rosselson, Les Levidow, Michael Rosen, Mike Leigh, Miriam Margolyes, Moshe Machover, Naomi Wimborne-Idrissi and 80 others (full list at gu.com/letters)

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 May 16 - 06:13 AM

Each time one of these people make these statements it's an attack on the Jewish People, many of whome are far more critical of Israel than we are.
Despicably, the Israeli authorities have branded all Jewish critics of their policy, "Self-hating Jews" about as low as you can sink I would have thought, but early days yet, I suppose.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 May 16 - 05:59 AM

Agreed, Jim. It's just upping the ante and potentially putting Jewish people, in Israel and elsewhere, in harm's way via polarisation. Now that's real antisemitism, Keith. Examine your conscience.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 May 16 - 04:56 AM

"Not unless Israel is unfairly singled out while the worse crimes of its enemies and other neighbours ignored."
Which is happening where exactly, unless you are referring to say the crimes of the west against the Third World, which I'm sure you're not?
Israel is mounting a propaganda campaign in defence of its aggressive actions, acts of terror, crimes against humanity and expansionism by claiming that any criticism of those actions is "Anti-Semitic".
Nobody here has blamed "the Jews" for Israel's proven behaviour other than people like you who have consistently defended Israel's every action, every massacre, every aggressive invasion, and are now suggesting that someone who is criticising Israel is Antisemitic - you've done the same to me in the past.
Who here has ever suggested that the Jews should not have a homeland?
Nobody – then why make such a claim unless you have decided to be part of Israel's propaganda campaign?
This has now become a standard defence of Israeli terrorism and, as far as I am concerned, anybody who resorts to it is an Antisemite - welcome to the club.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 May 16 - 12:32 AM

My birthday happens to be tomorrow.

I do not drink alcohol as has oft been stated here.

Can't get even the slightest thing right can you, Steve?, you poor little fellow!

Off this silly thread now so do not fash yersel' to rejoin.

Adieu...

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 May 16 - 09:38 PM

Grr. I just realised that my latest denigration of Hamas was on another website, not here. Here's what I said.

It's perfectly possible to support Hamas in their resistance to Israeli aggression against Gaza without supporting their ludicrous stated intent to wipe Israel off the map. I've vehemently opposed nuclear weapons all my life, but I've still voted for a party* that embraces them. I vehemently opposed the Iraq invasion but I still voted for the party that took us in, knowing that the alternative was far worse. If I lived in Northern Ireland I would vote for Sinn Fein, in spite of the bloody history of the IRA. That's how the world is. It is not antisemitic to say that I support Hamas in resisting the IDF abuses if I make it clear that I oppose the targeting of Jews BECAUSE THEY ARE JEWS. To me, that's what antisemitism is, nothing else.

*Voted tactically in their favour, to be accurate.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 May 16 - 07:41 PM

...gibbers Steve yet a·bloody·gain...

...Sorry Steve: but that is semantic and taxonomic rubbish...

...I think you are making a fantastically fulsome fool of yourself by so pertinaciously declining to grasp so hyalinely patent a point. Surprised at such intransigent idiocy on the part of one whom I generally regard as of at least average intelligence! Please don't wreck a fairly intelligent point, reasonably germane to the theme of the thread, by further pathetic parroting of this piddling non-point...

I have far better things to do than respond to this flowery nonsense. As it appears to be your birthday, why don't you toddle off and have another vat of wine.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 May 16 - 07:00 PM

Sorry, Steve; but can't identify what you find in the least uncivil in my last post addressed to you, whose tone seems not dissimilar to your last addressed to me --

"Michael, keep up. Read any article..." Sounds pretty peremptory to me; and the word 'please' appears nowhere within it -- tho it does in mine:- "please, in particular, specify anything I have said..."

What more do you want? I do not take kindly to being accused of incivility when I have clearly been considerably more civil in my response to you than you were to me in the post to which I was replying.

What on earth has got into you -- PLEASE!? Never seen such a blatant & pusillanimous cop·out! Surprised at you! You should be ashamed of yourself.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 May 16 - 06:38 PM

A civil response from you, Michael, might have received a riposte from me. Try again. I await.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 May 16 - 06:34 PM

"There is nothing wrong with that Jim, and no-one is claiming that there is.
Not unless Israel is unfairly singled out while the worse crimes of its enemies and other neighbours ignored."

Define unfairly. Define worse crimes. Tell us when we ignore what "its enemies and other neighbours" do. Tell us why we should always be obliged to catalogue the wrongdoings of other nations when we are discussing what Israel does. Little Jimmy was being told off by his teacher for pushing a girl. He complained that it wasn't fair because his friend Peter was worse because he'd been looking up girls' skirts. Hands up those of us who think the teacher should have let Jimmy off just because he wasn't telling Peter off at the same time. If you want to discuss the worse crimes of the other Middle East nations, start a thread on it. You could start with Saudi Arabia, which perpetrates human rights abuses that make most other countries look like fluffy bunnies. And I have said so many times. No ignoring by me.


"Then you have to ask why the Jewish state only is singled out for criticism."

It isn't. I for one have criticised Hamas (not a state, but hey ho) many times. You haven't noticed because it would be inconvenient for you to notice. I think my most recent attack on Hamas may have been in the last 24 hours. Saudi Arabia, see above.

"No-one is, and no decent democratic country even accuses israel of 'war crime and ats of terror.'"

Define decent. The US? Would you like me to repeat my litany of foreign policy abuses I made the other day? The U.K., which colluded in the invasion of Iraq, helping to cause the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent people and misery for millions? That kind of decent country? Why do you put war crimes and acts of terror in quotes? Should we ask the Lebanese children whose limbs were blown off by Israeli cluster bomblets left in hundreds of thousands all over their countryside about war crimes and acts of terror, or was that OK because their mums and dads were to blame? Or does collateral damage to children not count?   

"'only if everyone living there is a Muslim, otherwise I level the same stricture at them as I do at Israel for calling itself a Jewish state.'

Except that you never have Steve!"

OK, tell me who qualifies, Keith. You know me. I hate religion and I'll take no prisoners! I hold no candle for Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Egypt, Syria, etc. Not a one of them. They have one thing in common with Israel: I feel sorry for the ordinary people who live in all of them for their lack of security and guaranteed peace. We in the West have fuelled their conflicts and propped up their dictators and we should be ashamed.

To be honest, I don't know why I bother with you. Your take on the Middle East is simplistic, one-sided and argued from a position of wilful ignorance, especially in relation to Israel, and you don't have any original thoughts, resorting only to higher authorities. You set out to confirm your prejudices and shun any information that gets in the way.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 May 16 - 06:15 PM

Steve -- Do keep up right back 2U! Leaving aside that boring whiskery old "How far is it a religion or an ethnicity or an itsy·bitsy·ickle·bit of both?" bit, please, in particular, specify anything I have said which can possibly be interpreted as implying that I think that "anyone who criticises Israel is a wholehearted supporter of Islam".

I do not think that; & I challenge you to quote back to me any statement of mine, on this thread or elsewhere, which could possibly be so construed by any person of reasonable intelligence.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 May 16 - 02:46 PM

only if everyone living there is a Muslim, otherwise I level the same stricture at them as I do at Israel for calling itself a Jewish state.

Except that you never have Steve!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 May 16 - 02:43 PM


Am I suffering false memories...???

No Pfr. Back then Israel was recognised as a David fighting for its very survival against a Goliath.

Jim,
then you are an Antisemite
Huh??
- the criticism here is of the Isreali regime, not the Jewish people.

There is nothing wrong with that Jim, and no-one is claiming that there is.
Not unless Israel is unfairly singled out while the worse crimes of its enemies and other neighbours ignored.
Then you have to ask why the Jewish state only is singled out for criticism.

You are accusing all Jews of Israeli war crime and ats of terror.
No-one is, and no decent democratic country even accuses israel of " war crime and ats of terror."

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 May 16 - 02:41 PM

Michael, keep up. Read any article on this matter penned by a Jewish person and they will tell you that the question of the Jewish state is one of ethnicity, not religion. There is no Christian ethnicity to speak of. As for "Muslim states," well they are just that only if everyone living there is a Muslim, otherwise I level the same stricture at them as I do at Israel for calling itself a Jewish state. You are falling into the usual pro-Israel trap of thinking that anyone who criticises Israel is a wholehearted supporter of Islam. Well I'm not, any more than I'm a wholehearted supporter of Christianity (not much doubt where I stand on that, is there?)

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 May 16 - 01:15 PM

Am I suffering false memories...???

But back in the 70s going to Israel to spend a summer working in a kibbutz was seen as a really cool admirable thing for young Brit counter culture students to do...

... like in some regards back then Israel was being portrayed as progressive almost communist utopia...??? 😕

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 May 16 - 12:58 PM

"...referring to a country that is a quarter non-Jewish as a Jewish state, by you, me, the UN, Jews inside or outside Israel or anybody else is not accurate," gibbers Steve yet a·bloody·gain.

Sorry Steve: but that is semantic and taxonomic rubbish, which I dealt with some posts back. Is Spain not a Catholic country because a number of Anglicans have taken up residence there? Does the presence of a sizeable Druze minority stop Syria from being a Muslim state? England is a Christian country because it has an established church by statute & tradition. But that doesn't mean that everyone who lives in it has to be a member of that one establishment, does it? — or why do Bradford & Leicester look so different from so many other of our cities?

Similarly, Israel is a state with an official national religion, so it is a Jewish state, properly called, having been declared and established as such -- which doesn't in any way deprive members of any other religion {or none} domiciled there of citizenship.

I think you are making a fantastically fulsome fool of yourself by so pertinaciously declining to grasp so hyalinely patent a point. Surprised at such intransigent idiocy on the part of one whom I generally regard as of at least average intelligence! Please don't wreck a fairly intelligent point, reasonably germane to the theme of the thread, by further pathetic parroting of this piddling non-point!

Thank you!

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 May 16 - 12:17 PM

"Steve, I am not accusing you of all the things you say I am, just that you do not seem to want Jews to have a homeland, a Jewish State."

Not once, in all the thousands of posts in this forum, nor inside my brain, in all of my three score years and four, have I EVER expressed or alluded to the notion that Jews should not have their homeland. You betray once again your utter lack of any interpretive powers whatsoever. What I do say is that referring to a country that is a quarter non-Jewish as a Jewish state, by you, me, the UN, Jews inside or outside Israel or anybody else is not accurate. Further, it is likely to lead to discrimination against non-Jews. That discrimination certainly occurs, the name they give their state may have little to do with that, but it can't be helping. I'll not be accused of post hoc ergo propter hoc.

As for this:

"....The Jews were given one by the UN in 1948, and they will not give it up without a fight to the end."

Well there you are. Fight to the end. That's exactly the way to make ordinary Israelis feel happy and secure, isn't it, not to speak of the people who live in neighbouring states. No talk of making peace, of compromise, of getting round the table. Of course, as the military aid from the US is unconditional, they don't have to do any of that. But, by God, they can fight, fight, fight, right to the end, with all that mighty weaponry. And they will.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 May 16 - 11:53 AM

"I am, just that you do not seem to want Jews to have a homeland, a Jewish State."
then you are an Antisemite - the criticism here is of the Isreali regime, not the Jewish people.
You are accusing all Jews of Israeli war crime and ats of terror.
You are the only one making that assumption - nobody else.
The Israelis are entitled to a homeland - their own but not anybody else's
The Arabs have as much right to their land, including that confiscated by aggression, as the Israelis have.
A reminder of the real world outside of that created by Israeli propaganda
Ongoing settlement policy
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 May 16 - 11:36 AM

ok.. I bit... I googled...

So that'll be Guardian correspondent Hadley Freeman, author of such weighty socio political tomes as..

"The Meaning of Sunglasses: A Guide to (Almost) All Things Fashionable"

"Be Awesome: Modern Life for Modern Ladies"........ 😬

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 May 16 - 11:10 AM

.. yet more quotes about well off privileged careerist politicians and cloud cuckoo land student politics...

Seems the media and other storm in a teacup shit stirrers have forgotten that the millions of ordinary grass roots labour voting families have ever even existed... 😣

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 May 16 - 10:52 AM

Guardian correspondent. Extract here but please read the rest.

" Corbyn has developed some strange tic that compels him to say "and all forms of racism" every time he is obliged to condemn antisemitism, even though none of his old friends or MPs are being racist against anyone but the Jews. Diane Abbott insisted that the whole thing was a "smear", as though Livingstone was a figment of our collective imagination. When Livingstone announced that he couldn't possibly be antisemitic because he'd slept with Jewish women, the country wished he was. George Galloway, another old pal of Corbyn's, appeared with the inevitability of dry rot, insisting that this was "an entirely synthetic crisis", perhaps confusing the crisis with his hat. Others insist the whole thing is a plot against the Labour leader, which makes me wonder if perhaps all antisemitism is actually, secretly, about Corbyn. Honestly, you could have powered the National Grid with the amount of energy the left was expending on telling Britain's Jews they were wrong to feel grossed out by all this.

Like I said, no one ever thinks they're the bad guy. So the new NUS president Malia Bouattia claims her stance against Zionism is purely political, even while using decrepit antisemitic tropes such as "mainstream Zionist-led media", which is about as political as a joke about hooked noses."
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/07/hadley-freeman-labour-party-hitler-antisemitism

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 May 16 - 10:42 AM

I can't make my mind up if Nationalists or Religious zealots are historically the worst blight on the peace and safety of mankind..

But when both pernicious traits are combined in in a big bunch of loud mouthed dogma blinded power mad sociopaths..

Then the world truly knows fear... 😱


.. just speaking generally.. not pointing at any one particular group of dangerous nutters...

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 May 16 - 10:33 AM

....The Jews were given one by the UN in 1948, and they will not give it up without a fight to the end.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 May 16 - 10:31 AM

Steve, I am not accusing you of all the things you say I am, just that you do not seem to want Jews to have a homeland, a Jewish State.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 May 16 - 09:07 AM

Judaism is not the state religion of Israel. It doesn't have one. Anglicanism is not the state religion in the UK because it is not the religion of Scotland or Wales, which, last time I checked, are still in the UK. De facto may be another matter, of course. When discussing Israel it is important not to unconsciously conflate Judaism with Jewish ethnicity. In many regards that is the problem when it comes to these spats over antisemitism, which, to me, means attacks on Jews as an ethnic group BECAUSE THEY ARE JEWS. The right of Jews to be regarded as an ethnic entity, not a religious grouping, is to be respected in my view. Ethnicity within Christianity is a far more diffuse issue.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 May 16 - 08:48 AM

3rd para, bugger·it!

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 May 16 - 08:46 AM

Apologies for the anacoluthon at the beginning of my 2nd para above; but I think my drift is clear enough.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 May 16 - 08:39 AM

Steve -- This is, as often averred, tho less so perhaps than whilome, "a Christian country"; in that it has its own Established Church, recognised as such by statute, whose senior clergy are ex officio members of the legislature, and whose membership is by statute enjoined on the country's Head Of State &c &c &c ···   The fact that actual practising churchgoing members of the Church of England are now a small minority does not in itself invalidate that designation.

In the sense that Judaism is its recognised state religion (tho notionally without prejudice to the rights of belief of any of its citizens who choose to follow other faiths, or none, in what is a free society), Israel remains a "Jewish state" by the statutory status within its establishment of the religion named...

It is admittedly an unfortunate fact that the principles of such a free society are not being practised as might be wished by many of the country's erstwhile supporters — who now, like me, find themselves unhappily unable to maintain that support in view of many of the actions of its current administration — does not of itself undo the principle on which the designation is based: any more, I reiterate, than the fact, that so few UK citizens are nowadays active churchgoers, prevents this from being accurately called "a Christian country", both by tradition & by various statutory enactments.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 May 16 - 08:35 AM

"Reflexively dismissing the charge of antisemitism as a plot to unseat Jeremy Corbyn comes from precisely the same conspiratorial logic as antisemitism itself"

No one has quite got round to calling me an 'antisemite yet.. but seem to be slowly inching ever closer....


I was 18 in 1977 - the peak punk rock year - I, along with best mates, had studied Govt & Politics / Brit constitution at FE college..

We were already en route to becoming politicized towards socialism,
when at that time "Rock Against Racism" and the "Anti N@zi League"
emerged as popularist crusades that inspired and educated youth all around the nation;
crucially in backwater provincial towns like mine,
where the non white population was near zero
and jewish school mates had been segregated for morning assembly at our grammar school....

I moved to Leeds / Bradford at 19, it was an imense culture shock, but one I revelled in.

Rock against Racism and The 2 Tone multiracial ska movement was in full swing.

My generation has that foundation

It was a most culturally progressive of learning times for all teenagers involved in music and arts.

It is at my core and in my bones...

These pro Israeli academics that are being quoted here are theorising themselves so far up their own arseholes
they are a divisive menace to the UK multi cultural Labour movement... 😠

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 May 16 - 08:22 AM

I have said in these threads until I'm blue in the face that I oppose people who want to wipe Israel from the map, kill Jews because they are Jews or move Jews out of Israel. That is a bloody stupid post, Keith, and you know it. In fact, it's a troll post containing defamatory remarks. "Presumably," eh? On what grounds do you "presume" it? To complete the picture, you support a situation in which Arabs are turned into second-class citizens in their own country. You have failed to address any of the points I made. Do you or do you not justify the clear discrimination against Arabs in Israel that is staring you in the face? Did you know that the Israeli national anthem contains only strongly Zionist sentiment with reference to Jews only? Would you like to be an Israeli Arab soldier, singing that anthem, or with others singing it around you, Keith? Do you really understand the regime you so blindly and unconditionally support? It doesn't sound much like it from here.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 May 16 - 07:51 AM

"Presumably you think the Jews should be deprived of their homeland"
Nobody has ever claimed that here - it is Israeli expansionism that is the problem, and that is opposed by many Israeli and non-Israeli Jews alike - are you claiming they they believe Israel should be expunged from the map?

Israelis Against Settlements
Britain and Empire stood alone in 1940.
When it had no alternative
During the rise of "Herr Hitler" Britain was happy to let it happen and criminalised those who opposed fascism as "premature Anti Fascists".
Some right wing IRA members did have contact with the Nazis, but on the other hand, the British Monarch and his wife were supporters of the Nazis, as was the proprietor of the leading Bristish right-wing newspaper, the Daily Mail - support for Hitler in Britain lasted throughout the war.
DAily Mail's friendship with Herr Hitler

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 May 16 - 07:14 AM

Do YOU, Keith, think that it's right to call a nation that is a quarter non-Jewish a "Jewish state?" Yes or no will do.


It was set up by the UN as a Jewish State and it remains the only one in the world, so yes.
Presumably you think the Jews should be deprived of their homeland.
That the only Jewish State should be expunged from the map.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 May 16 - 07:08 AM

Well I'm a member of the Labour Party, and not only was I a postgraduate student (once I'd got my degree from Imperial College) but I passed the postgrad course too and got the letters. That puts me one up on your source, Keith, but you don't bloody listen to me, do you? 😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 May 16 - 07:03 AM

The term Jewish State was invented by arch-Zionist Theodot Herzl, as Michael said. It was pounced on with glee at the time of the Declaration in 1948 by Israel's founding fathers, who mentioned it five times in the document. The UN did not demur, but the term was not theirs. And you have not answered my very simple question yet, Keith. Do YOU, Keith, think that it's right to call a nation that is a quarter non-Jewish a "Jewish state?" Yes or no will do.

As for this gem:

"The Arabs in the Jewish state are the lucky ones."

Why, I suppose the house-boys who lived with their wives and kids in tiny shacks at the bottom of my uncles' gardens in Rhodesia were also "the lucky ones." And how "lucky" to be an Arab in Israel, if you've had your land and water supply stolen, your family olive groves slashed in half by an apartheid wall, when you're waiting for three days to get through a road block, to be stuck for months or years in an Israeli jail without charge. Gosh, I'm so jealous! Were that I should come by such good luck! Citizenship and full rights, eh? Well let's have a look at how far that has got the Arabs who are so lucky to live in Israel. Arab men twice as likely to be jobless. Arab women three times as likely. Arab men on half the pay of Jewish men. Far less funding for Arab schools leading to twice the Jewish dropout rate. Hardly any industrial investment in mainly-Arab areas. Buses that go around Arab areas instead of through them, making getting to work and school difficult. Israel almost at the bottom of OECD equality ratings because of this ghettoisation of Arab areas. Equality laws largely unenforced. All this is in a report funded by the Bank of Israel in 2014 called "The labour market of Israeli Arabs." I can't do links.

My uncles said that the house-boys were basically lazy and feckless, like the blacks in Rhodesia in general, and were lucky to have such kind employers. What's your excuse for why those lucky Arabs in Israel aren't even luckier, Keith?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 May 16 - 06:43 AM

It was the Conservative right who appeased "Her Hitler" when he was embarking on his crusade to wipe out the Jews,

No, but the IRA cheered his armies for "cleansing" Europe of Jews.
Britain and Empire stood alone in 19140.

The unqualified opinion of a postgraduate student at U.C.L.

Who is qualified to have an opinion, and why not a postgraduate of UCL?
Tanya Gold?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/labours-anti-semitism-problem-should-sicken-any-voter---includin/

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 May 16 - 06:09 AM

"Another Labour member speaks,"
The unqualified opinion of a postgraduate student at U.C.L.
Antisemitism is traditionally the domain of the Right
It was the Conservative right who appeased "Her Hitler" when he was embarking on his crusade to wipe out the Jews, it was Industrial right-wing capitalism in Germany which herded six million Jews into the extermination chambers.
Unsubstantiated accusations
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 May 16 - 05:30 AM

Another Labour member speaks,
"Reflexively dismissing the charge of antisemitism as a plot to unseat Jeremy Corbyn comes from precisely the same conspiratorial logic as antisemitism itself: it is a denial of agency over our own ideas and methods of political organisation.

So far, the centrist plan to 'tackle antisemitism' in the Labour Party has amounted to a heavier reliance on internal party bureaucracy – more investigations and more powers to a 'Compliance Unit' to root out activists far beyond the pale of any democratic accountability.

But antisemitism is a problem with faulty ideas, not individuals; it corrupts our solidarity with foreign peoples and estrange one of the world's most historically oppressed minorities from the cause of labour. There are better ways to build internationalism – and better ways to 'criticise Israel'.

Labour's left flank has had some astounding victories over the past few months – now we need the intellectual integrity to be worthy of them. If we do not call out our own prejudices, then those who would return us to the footnotes of history will do so on our behalf.

They may very well succeed, and perhaps they would be right to try."

Mark Crawford is a postgraduate student at UCL and a member of the Labour Party
http://leftfootforward.org/2016/05/antisemitism-is-built-on-flawed-thinking-the-labour-left-can-call-it-out/

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 May 16 - 05:25 AM

Indeed. Is it not a disgrace to the entire Arab world that an entity like Shatila Refugee Camp should still exist nearly 70 years after such Arabs as chose to leave then-Palestine were herded there by their refuge-hosts: a third or fourth generation of interned refugees of all things! — in glaring contrast to the number of Jewish immigrants to Israel since then who have been entirely integrated and absorbed! What is wrong with the Lebanese & their allies, to allow such an enormity to persist for so long, for purely [counterproductive, it might well be said] propaganda purposes!

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 May 16 - 03:13 AM

Steve,
Exactly. "Jewish state" is the characterisation that Israel bestowed on itself.

Exactly not!
It was the UN that created israel as the "Jewish State."
A homeland for Jews.
Why do you deny the Jews alone the right to a state?

Yes there were some Arabs living there.
Should the Jews have expelled them all?
Instead they gave them citizenship and full citizenship rights.
Those Arabs who chose to leave in 1948 were denied citizenship by their Arab hosts, denied the right to settle, denied citizenship or employment rights, and forced into camps where their descendants live to this day.
The Arabs in the Jewish State are the lucky ones.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 May 16 - 01:31 AM

The locution "Jewish state" in fact probably derives from the influential late C19 book called The Jewish State, in which Theodor Herzl, a non-observant Jewish reporter who had covered the Dreyfus trial, argued the necessity of such an entity, having been shocked by the widespread antisemitism revealed by the case of which he had previously been unaware. Herzl is thus widely regarded as the actual progenitor of the Zionist* movement.

≈M≈

*in the erstwhile merely political sense, rather than the oddly tendentious recent pejorative application, with its overtones of nationalistic belligerence. I belonged in my early teens, eg, to an organisation called the Federation of Zionist Youth, whose aim was simply to establish that state which ultimately came about when I was 16, and not to kill anyone or commit any other atrocities -- 'Zionism' then constituting a 'house', as the Good Book sez, of 'many mansions' [which we nowadays would call 'rooms'].

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 May 16 - 06:51 PM

Wiki,
The "Jewish state" is a political term used to describe the nation state of Israel.
Modern Israel came into existence on 14 May 1948 as the homeland for the Jewish people. It was also defined in its declaration of independence as a "Jewish state..."

Exactly. "Jewish state" is the characterisation that Israel bestowed on itself. Barely three-quarters of its citizens are Jews. Is this the third or the fourth time I've mentioned that rather inconvenient fact? What do YOU think, Keith? Do YOU think that a quarter of the population of a country should be excluded on racial grounds from its soi-disant definition? Yes or no, Keith? Can you answer just this one question on your own without resorting to what some document, declaration, guru or selected historian has said? Antisemitism is racist, yet, without irony, you are defending the right of a country to define itself solely on racial grounds, excluding millions of its people, turning them in effect (and in practice in many cases) into second-class citizens. That isn't very nice, Keith. I have heard it called racist...

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 May 16 - 05:56 PM

Well there you have it. Thank you for publishing that without our having to pay, and proving once again that your obsession is seeking out the rantings of unbalanced, near-lunatics to prove that we're all Jew-haters if we ever raise the slightest criticism of Israel. I also note your total lack of comment about the article.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 May 16 - 05:49 PM

.. well.. that seems to emphasise just how divorced from reality student politics still are...

Nothing seems to have changed much since I was a mature student back in the 1980s....

Nor my opinion that young relatively well off middle class students who adopt a fashionable leftist political identity
and later end up as careerist Labour party MPs and admin employees, or 'leftist' academics
have anything but a theoretical book learned concept of what the core values of Labour policies really mean,
and what families like mine experienced in factories and council estates.

.. and no, a gap year slumming with the chavs & oiks doesn't really count... 😜

Of course, students struggling to cope with tuition fees, and juggling studies with long hours of minimum wage part time jobs
deserve full consideration and respect...