BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 16 - 05:05 AM

And I'd point out that you frequently discount any opinion expressed by an Arab or Muslim merely because they are Arabs or Muslims -

I would point out that I have never done any such thing.


And the vested interest of the members of that board is that the the wider the definition of antisemitism, the more influence they can gain.

Are you saying that those Jews used the board as a means to gain more influence for Jews?
Is there a problem with Jews having too much influence?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 May 16 - 04:59 AM

Can you not read, Keith - "Oh, and, Keith, you like the Times of Israel, don't you? Here they report that the definition that you like (despite its obvious flaws) was dropped in 2013. http://www.timesofisrael.com/eu-drops-its-working-definition-of-anti-semitism/"

And the vested interest of the members of that board is that the the wider the definition of antisemitism, the more influence they can gain. It's not rocket science. And I'd point out that you frequently discount any opinion expressed by an Arab or Muslim merely because they are Arabs or Muslims - or even seek to defend Arabs or Muslims. It is you who is a racist.

As to offensive behaviour - I repeat - http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Politics-And-Diplomacy/IDF-general-in-bombshell-speech-Israel-today-shows-signs-of-1930s-Germany-453142?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 May 16 - 04:48 AM

I don't care really, Keith. My view is that it is wrong-headed and unconstructive in the extreme to say that Israel is acting like Nazi Germany, basically because it isn't, and because the remark is likely to inflame. It is fairly likely to be said by someone who has antisemitic sentiments, but it is in itself antisemitic only if the context of the remark is that Israel acts that way because Israelis are Jews. Antisemitic means anti-Jew, not anti-what politicians happen to decide to do. That's my opinion, Keith, along with the reasoning. As ever, your opinion is not your own but that of a higher authority to whom you're appealing.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 16 - 04:15 AM

Richard, if it was dropped three years ago, why is it still on the website unchanged?

All have a vested interest in an over-broad definition (of antisemitism).

The only vested interest I see is that many are Jews.
Is that what you meant?

Steve,
If you say that Israel is acting like Nazi Germany, you're being an idiot but you're not being antisemitic.

You are according to the EUMC working definition.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 16 - 04:01 AM

"Once again the Baroness hits the nail on the head:"
Where does the Baroness's make the many thousand of Jews, Israelis and throughout the world, who have openly criticised Israeli policy, including high-ranking members of the Israeli security forces, soldiers, politicians, churchmen, scientists, writers, intellectuals, medical workers........ "Antisemitic".
To accuse anybody who criticises Israeli of being Antisemite is not only an Antisemitic act, but it puts the Jewish people as a whole in danger.
Israel's behavior in adopting this as a tactic to avoid being tries for war crimes and atrocities is a major contributor to the present rise in Antisemitism - it has also contributed to the fact that terrorists who target Jewish establishments and people have been told that the atrocities carried out by Israel are the fault of the Jews.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 May 16 - 12:22 AM

Oh, and, Keith, you like the Times of Israel, don't you? Here they report that the definition that you like (despite its obvious flaws) was dropped in 2013. http://www.timesofisrael.com/eu-drops-its-working-definition-of-anti-semitism/

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 May 16 - 12:17 AM

Have a look, Keith, at the composition of the advisory board of the panel that adopted the obviously and irrationally over-expansive definition of antisemitism that you like. All have a vested interest in an over-broad definition. http://www.antisem.eu/advisory-board/

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 May 16 - 12:10 AM

Today the 5th May - http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Politics-And-Diplomacy/IDF-general-in-bombshell-speech-Israel-today-shows-signs-of-1930s-Germany-453142?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 May 16 - 12:09 AM

From 2013 - http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2013/01/all-6-former-israeli-secret-service-chiefs-slam-occupation-of-palestine.html

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 May 16 - 12:04 AM

Baroness Deech She was a member of the Jewish Leadership Council until 2010.

She is the daughter of the late historian and journalist, Josef Fraenkel (b. 1903, Ustrzyki Dolne, Poland) who fled Vienna and then Prague from the Nazis. Several other members of her family were murdered in Nazi concentration camps during World War II. Her first cousin is Maurice Frankel, Director of the UK Campaign for Freedom of Information.

She is not an inertial observer. Her remarks cited are over a year old. On the other hand, it is a fact that over the last day of so, Israeli F16s have been pounding Gaza - while those in Gaza have scarcely a bow and arrow to defend themselves with. The IDF summarily execute Palestinians including teenagers, manhandle women, and arrest children under 10. Israeli forces kill about 160 Palestinians for every Israeli killed by a Palestinian. Israel continues to annex land, even past its war gains of 1967.

Do you realise that in 1910 around 90% of those living in the land that is now occupied by Israel were non-Jewish?

Finkelstein and Walker are quite right.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 May 16 - 10:10 PM

"What was that Baroness Deech said bout the "Left" again.....oh yeah:

"to be of the "Left" is to be righteous, sanctimonious and beyond criticism or reproof."

I would hazard a guess that the Baroness knows f@ck all about the realities and families of ordinary hard working grass roots labour voters and supporters
living in provincial council estates like the one I grew up on... 😣

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 May 16 - 10:10 PM

Er, I said, "Anyway, that's how I see it." And thanks for falling into the trap and revealing yourself to be that obnoxious anonymous Guest-troll that suddenly disappeared when the no-guest rule was brought in. Funny how you've suddenly reappeared, isn't it. I didn't quite expect it to work so quickly. Naturally, you'll deny it. Which is what cowards do. 😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 04 May 16 - 09:49 PM

Ha, ha, ha Shaw defining what makes an antisemite for us.

What was that Baroness Deech said bout the "Left" again.....oh yeah:

"to be of the "Left" is to be righteous, sanctimonious and beyond criticism or reproof."

She must be an avid reader of Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 May 16 - 09:36 PM

I'm a very simple man. You're an antisemite if you demonise a person because he is a Jew. You are not an antisemite because you criticise his country, his actions, his government or his dad. In the latter cases, you may well be wrong, but you are not being antisemitic. Israel wishes to be regarded as a Jewish state. Personally, I don't think that's wise, when a quarter of its population are not Jewish. Equally, I don't think it's wise to criticise "Israel." Far better to be specific and criticise the Israeli regime, specifying the actions it takes that you see as objectionable, which are manifold. If you state that Israel should be wiped off the map, you're a fool, because that is neither possible nor desirable, but it isn't an an antisemitic statement if you mean that you object to the creation of the state of Israel after WW2. If you mean that Jews should be wiped off the map, that's different. If you say that Israel is acting like Nazi Germany, you're being an idiot but you're not being antisemitic. You are being antisemitic if you say that Jews are like Nazis. Anyway, that's how I see it. I don't think Ken Livingstone said anything that was technically wrong, but I do think that his timing was execrable. I sort of like Ken, but Christ knows what he was thinking of when he said what he did.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 May 16 - 05:23 PM

"you must believe that reactionary arseholes are whipping up staged hysteria

Yes.. that much to me is highly probable.. to such an extent I find it hard to disbelieve...

But not all those playing a part are reactionary arseholes..

Some are otherwise respectable credible figures, getting swept up in this hysterical smear campaign..
and opening themselves up to being manipulated by the arseholes
to be used to fit in with be seen to add support to their arshole agendas.....


"The subtlety of your use of semantics escaped me as I am anti-semantic"

My excuse is even simpler.. I'm just not very good at writing these days....

It's quarter of a century since I was a post grad student of 'concepts of belief and ideology' .. or some such clever dick humanities field of education..

.. analysis of media and propaganda being a key element...

But that was then....

Now I'm older, worn out by all the negativity and disappointments life throws out and rarely get much free quality time for stimulating thinking...

Though I still trust my judgement to smell attacks intended to destabilise a party
that exists to at least try to fight the odds stacked up against ordinary folks having a fair safe decent standard of living...

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 04 May 16 - 04:35 PM

I don't believe.. I try to question...

Pardon me for taking your use of the word condemning in your statement I feel entitled and unrestricted in condemning all the reactionary arseholes who are whipping up staged hysteria to fuck up support and votes for a labour Party lead by Corbyn..... to mean that you must believe that reactionary arseholes are whipping up staged hysteria rather than you are questioning that fact. The subtlety of your use of semantics escaped me as I am anti-semantic.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 May 16 - 04:18 PM

I don't believe.. I try to question...

I consider reasonable possibilities / probabilities as objectively as I can based on available reliable/unreliable media sourced information..
and my own experiece and judgement.

Therefore, I consider it not impossible that 'unknown' agencies acting on their own agendas
may have quite possibly ignited the sparks of this recent strategic smear attack on Corbyn's leadership.

Feeding the frenzy of right wing media exaggerated outrage and hostile anti Corbyn Labour stooges.

As a consequence drawing in very credible commentators whose well intended comments & involvement
are fanning the flames and helping perpetrate a fake high profile scandal.
Way out of proportion than these issues deserve at this precise time so close to elections..

It's as if 'some people' 'somewhere' desperately need the UK public's minds to be more focused on Israel / Jew versus Muslim issues,
than our own immediate shared communities social welfare / Health / Education / etc / problems...????


Distract, Divide and Rule...

.. weird old world... innit...!!!??? 😕


Hopefully not too unrealistic an appraisal...???

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 04 May 16 - 03:33 PM

Well.. of course you can presume to predict what what any other individual might believe in or agrees with..

So, do you believe it's all staged hysteria whipped up by reactionary arseholes or not, I am confused.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 04 May 16 - 03:24 PM

As did a former head of Mossad and the Holocaust survivors and their families - and a lorra, lorra Israelis and Jews inside and outside of Israel - Einstein and his mates described the extremist behaviour of Israel as Fascism
All Antisemitic, of course


Once again the Baroness hits the nail on the head:

"That in itself is an anti-Semitic conclusion, one that collapses the ability to call out anti-Semitic comments by virtue of its 'Jewish' imprimatur. If one black person were to defend slavery would that make it acceptable? Would that person immediately be perceived as the spokesperson for all black people? Of course not. It is only when some renegade Jews can be found to attack Zionism and Jewish history that they become the representative Jewish voice — Gerald Kaufman, Norman Finkelstein, Avi Shlaim, Noam Chomsky, Ilan Pappe, Gilad Atzmon — too many, regrettably, with their own reasons for what they say."

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 May 16 - 03:03 PM

"So I take it you are in agreement with ....."


Well.. of course you can presume to predict what what any other individual might believe in or agrees with..
You can also rightly or falsely continue to imply accusations of guilt by association..
or imagine any thing you like,
if you are that intent on undermining and discrediting your perceived opponents ..
You can also be completely wrong and talk as much as you like out your arse.. it's all entirely your prerogative....

Btw.. the word "zionist" has never existed in my vocabulary for any purpose...

This might even be the first time I have ever written it...????

.. and back on topic of crazy conspiracy theories..

"Israel funds ISIS" might not be totally too far fetched to be the basis of a pop culture fictional satirical paranoid political thriller movie...

Then again... neither would "Covert Mossad agents fermenting a proxy political war between Jews & Muslims on UK soil, irrespective of collateral damage"...

Add Russell Crowe, John Hurt, Helen Mirren, Benedict Cumberbatch.. and maybe Ridley Scott directing.....

Producers would be throwing $$$$$ to green light the project



Take your pick of conspiracies.. or imagine some more...

Any ideas can exist in an over fertile paranoid imagination..... 😜

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 16 - 03:02 PM

"I feel entitled and unrestricted in condemning Israel"
Amen to all that PFR
"Labour Party councillors who have been suspended for comparisons between Israel and Hitler"
As did a former head of Mossad and the Holocaust survivors and their families - and a lorra, lorra Israelis and Jews inside and outside of Israel - Einstein and his mates described the extremist behaviour of Israel as Fascism
All Antisemitic, of course
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 04 May 16 - 01:55 PM

I feel entitled and unrestricted in condemning all the reactionary arseholes who are whipping up staged hysteria to fuck up support and votes for a labour Party lead by Corbyn.....

So I take it you are in agreement with the Labour Party councillors who have been suspended for comparisons between Israel and Hitler, for stating that Israel funds ISIS and for calling for the "relocation" of Israelis.

Baroness Deech hits the regressive Left's nail on the head:

"Yes, there are right-wing anti-Semites and there are Holocaust deniers, but they have for long been treated as buffoons of no importance — which is true — and being of the "Right" they are not taken seriously, whereas to be of the "Left" is to be righteous, sanctimonious and beyond criticism or reproof."

"it's curious how many anti-Zionists cannot refrain from bringing Hitler and Nazism into every discussion, as a way of coloring perceptions of Israel"

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 May 16 - 12:51 PM

I'm only quarter jew.. so I can only hate an arm or a leg...

But it's probably still enough to have won me a train ride to a n@zi 'work' camp...

I feel entitled and unrestricted in condemning Israeli govt & military,
I feel entitled and unrestricted in condemning any racism within the Labour party..
I feel entitled and unrestricted in criticising aspects of the Jewish & Muslim & Christian religions..
I feel entitled and unrestricted in condemning all the reactionary arseholes who are whipping up staged hysteria
to fuck up support and votes for a labour Party lead by Corbyn.....

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 16 - 12:38 PM

"Jim just can't help transforming any thread with a political slant into a denunciation of Israel:"
This subject is about how Israel is using the accusation of 'Antisemitism' as a defence or their behaviour and how that has affected British politics - and all because the lady doesn't like.... The International Criminal Court.
A little difficult to ignore that fact and all your somewhat pretentious waffle really doesn't alter that fact.
You may be happy to see the Jewish people blamed for Israeli crimes - personally, I find it offensive enough to comment on, but then again, that's me.
Perhaps you would like to respond to the article I put up - no/
I paid a flying visit to Manchester last week - you wouldn't believe what the "self-hating Jews" (quote) are saying there.
Thought not.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 May 16 - 12:12 PM

A prominent British Jew's explanation for the party's problems.

"Why the Labour Party Won't Confront British Muslim anti-Semitism

Too many Labour politicians cravenly adopted the anti-Semitic tropes and anti-Israel demonization they think will get them British Muslim votes, rather than standing up to the prejudice that exists in the community."

Baroness Deech is an independent peer in the House of Lords. A lawyer, she was formerly Principal of St Anne's College Oxford, a governor of the BBC, chair of the Human Fertilisation & Embryology Authority and a trustee of the Rhodes Scholarships.
read more: http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.717851
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.717851

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 May 16 - 05:46 PM

Trouble is that, for all his undoubted virtues, Jim just can't help transforming any thread with a political slant into a denunciation of Israel: it's a King Charles's Head of his. As that character in Shaw's You Never Can Tell might have said: 'He thinks it isn't but it is'. Admittedly Israel was intro'd by Les in 3rd post: but just look at the truculent tone of Jim's instant rejoinder in the 4th, & the way the thread inevitably progressed thereafter!!

Didn't mean to maintain the drift. Just saying

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 May 16 - 02:16 PM

Yes.
I was not going to pursue it any further either.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 May 16 - 12:48 PM

Keith - ok.. you're the OP.. it's your thread... but weren't we supposed to be discussing the Labour party...??? 😜

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 May 16 - 12:42 PM

Not true Keith - I have questioned their opinions - I have never rejected their views on the basis of their race, as you have here.
No more dialogue Keith - once again, you have plainly demonstrated your attitude to other races.
Bye-eee
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 May 16 - 10:32 AM

Those supporting Israeli policy are "anti Palestinian" by definition are incapably of neutrality and objctivity, so we discount what all of them have to say, is that right?

You would not accept the view of such a person as objective and neutral about the motivation and tactics of the Palestinians.
You always challenge anything quoted from such people as being inadmissible to the discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 May 16 - 08:19 AM

Where does it suggest that either of these authors are "anti-Israeli"
Those supporting Israeli policy are "anti Palestinian" by definition are incapably of neutrality and objctivity, so we discount what all of them have to say, is that right?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 May 16 - 07:10 AM

So anyone from Palestine, no matter who they are, are incapable of being "neutral or objective" - do I have that right.

No, but anti-Israel Palestinian activists are by definition not neutral.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 May 16 - 07:00 AM

"We are entitled to know that it was not written by a neutral, objective observer. "
So anyone from Palestine, no matter who they are, are incapable of being "neutral or objective" - do I have that right.
You decline to comment on the co-author - is that because she is Israeli and therefore "neutral or objective"?
Bit racist, doncha think?
I pointed out the fact that the article by 'The Campaign Against Antisemitism' was questionable not because its authors were Jews, but because the organisation was actually set up to defend Israeli atrocities and war crimes - not the Jewish people but the behaviour of the Israeli Regime - who contributes to its upkeep.

These definitions are still displayed on the current 'Zionism on the Web site' - the same as the old one in an expanded form
"Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.
However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic. Antisemitic acts are criminal when they are so defined by law (for example, denial of the Holocaust or distribution of antisemitic materials in some countries). Criminal acts are antisemitic when the targets of attacks, whether they are people or property---such as buildings, schools, places of worship and cemeteries---are selected because they are, or are perceived to be, Jewish or linked to Jews. Antisemitic discrimination is the denial to Jews of opportunities or services available to others and is illegal in many countries."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 May 16 - 06:56 AM

Richard, that is produced by representatives from all counties of the EU as indicative of antisemitism.
I would hardly expect the antisemetic site "Electronic Intifada" to agree.
Is that your only evidence for saying,
"the reality of the matter is that the definition you like is no longer treated as a working definition?"

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 May 16 - 06:34 AM

"We are entitled to know that it was not written by a neutral, objective observer. That is all."
So being Palestinian presumes they are incapable of being neutral or objective, no matter who they are?
Bit racist doncha think?
You decline to comment on the co-author being an Israel - is that because the fact she was born in Israel makes her "objective and reliable"
To all articles have to undergo you racial purity test before we can take them seriously?
bit of a blast from the past, eh what!!
The Nazis were defeated, South Africal Apartheid is Dead and the Good ol' South is emancipated - hopefully, their ideologies went with them, but not here apparently.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 May 16 - 06:27 AM

These definitions are still displayed on the current 'Zionism on the Web site' - the same as in the past in an expanded form
Jim Carroll

Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.
However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic. Antisemitic acts are criminal when they are so defined by law (for example, denial of the Holocaust or distribution of antisemitic materials in some countries). Criminal acts are antisemitic when the targets of attacks, whether they are people or property---such as buildings, schools, places of worship and cemeteries---are selected because they are, or are perceived to be, Jewish or linked to Jews. Antisemitic discrimination is the denial to Jews of opportunities or services available to others and is illegal in many countries.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 May 16 - 04:42 AM

Keith, the reality of the matter is that the definition you like is no longer treated as a working definition except by those who want to muzzle criticism of Israel and its oppressive conduct - for example but not by way of limitation see - https://electronicintifada.net/content/israel-lobby-uses-discredited-anti-semitism-definition-muzzle-debate/11716

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 May 16 - 04:28 AM

So what - don't those who support the Palestinians have a voice?
They do.
What is your point.
We are entitled to know that it was not written by a neutral, objective observer. That is all.

They did say, " The EUMC has since abandoned this wording" but that exact wording is still on their site.
http://www.antisem.eu/projects/eumc-working-definition-of-antisemitism/

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 May 16 - 04:13 AM

"David Landy (co-author Irish Times article) is national organizer of the Ireland-Palestine Solidarity Campaign and author of Jewish Identity and Palestinian Rights: Diaspora Jewish Opposition to Israel."
So what - don't those who support the Palestinians have a voice?
Ronit Lentin, the other author, is Jewish, born in the newly-formed State of Israel
What's your point Keith?
Do you actually have anything to say on the points made by the article or would you rather nit-pick possible errors?
It suggests that Israel is using "Antisemitism" as a catch-all defence of its criminal behaviour and goes to great pains to suggest why.
How about dealing with that?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 May 16 - 04:01 AM

Why, at a time when Labour members in general, and the Parliamentary Labour Party in particular, should be uniting and waging non-stop war on the vilest, most deceitful and damaging Tory government ever inflicted on the United Kingdom, are they wittering on, attacking their own members and their leader, and wasting their combined energy over some perceived 'anti-semitism'?

Labour MPs were elected to oppose the Self-Servatives in Parliament. Time they got on with it, or found a different job. There's considerably more than enough to keep them fully occupied fighting Tory mis-rule, without indulging in stupid playground-games trying to unseat their own leader (who, incidentally, was elected in a landslide, by Labour Party members).

They should do what they were elected to do, or Foxtrot Oscar.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 May 16 - 03:22 AM

David Landy (co-author Irish Times article) is national organizer of the Ireland-Palestine Solidarity Campaign and author of Jewish Identity and Palestinian Rights: Diaspora Jewish Opposition to Israel.
Electronic Intifada.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 02 May 16 - 07:49 PM

No surprise that, this is what the regressive left has become.

"Over 50 members of the British Labour Party have been suspended over anti-Semitic and racist remarks over the last two months, the Telegraph reported on Monday, nearly 40 more than publicly admitted by the party.

Labour suspended up to 20 members in the last two weeks alone, according to the report, which cited an unnamed senior source within the party, who added that the suspensions made public were just the "tip of the iceberg."

Haaretz

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 02 May 16 - 06:41 PM

Keith, it's the Irish Times, no more needs to be said.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 May 16 - 03:26 PM

Jim's Irish Times artical states,
" In this, they use an obsolete formulation from the European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia (EUMC) which includes as a possible sign of anti-Semitism: "denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, eg, by claiming that the existence of a state of Israel is a racist endeavour". The EUMC has since abandoned this wording as it was being used to launch attacks on critics of Israel, rather than to tackle real anti-Semitism."

That appears not to be true.
it is still current on the EUMC site.http://www.antisem.eu/projects/eumc-working-definition-of-antisemitism/

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 May 16 - 02:54 PM

As I said, the Israelis have deliberately made it damn near impossible to distinguish between real Antisemitism and criticism of their crimes
They even describe Jews who critice their crimes ( Einsteing - the holocaust survivors, Jews for Justice, Rabbis for Peace) as "self-hating Jews"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 02 May 16 - 01:30 PM

Campaign Against Antisemitism has analysed research undertaken by ICM Unlimited for Channel 4 and Juniper Television. We were not involved in the production of the research, and have not influenced its methodology.

Two surveys were undertaken: a survey of a representative sample of British Muslims and a representative survey of a sample of the general British population. ICM conducted face-to-face interviews of 1,081 British Muslims aged over 18 between 25th April and 31st May 2015. They then conducted telephone interviews of 1,008 members of the general British public aged over 18 between 5th June and 7th June 2015. In both cases, the data was weighted by age, gender, region and work status, to ensure that it was as representative as possible. The data was released in April 2016 in advance of a Channel 4 television programme based on the data.

The analysis in this document does not make up part of the Channel 4 programme; it represents a close reading of the ICM polling data with a view to better understanding the specific issue of Muslim antisemitism in Britain.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 May 16 - 11:42 AM

"Read the Report"
It's worth noting that The Campaign Against Antisemitism is an organisation that was set up specifically in 2014 to offset of the condemnation of Massacres, atrocities and potential war crimes carried out by Israel in Gaza, (avoided as being judged such by the efforts of the Israelis to have the International Criminal Court, also accused of "Antisemitism" discontinued)
Basically,the C.A.A. is an Israel support group which has co-operated with Israel to change the definition of 'Antisemitism' to include any criticism of Israel - making it virtually impossible to distinguish between real Antisemitism and condemnation of War crimes and atrocities by Israel.
Equating Israeli policy with The Jewish People as a whole is in itself Antisemitic by definition.
"Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.
However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic."
Accepted definition by the European Parliament Working Group on Antisemitism
Anybody who accuses critics of Israel of being Antisemitic are, in fact Antisemitic - this includes the present Israeli regime.
Read the Irish Times article
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 02 May 16 - 09:50 AM

Campaign Against Antisemitism issues report on British Muslims and antisemitism

12th April 2016

For at least twenty years, the British Jewish community has been out in front when it comes to interfaith work. As Britain's Muslim population has grown, British Jews assumed that interfaith models that led to huge advances in relations with British Christians, could apply just as well to relations with British Muslims. Indeed building bridges with British Muslims has become the focus of outreach work by British Jews.

Today, our analysis of the ICM survey of British Muslims for Channel 4 and Juniper Television shows that the gradual buildup of understanding and friendship between Britain's Jews and Muslims has been utterly eclipsed by growing antisemitism amongst British Muslims.

On every single count, British Muslims were more likely by far than the general British population to hold deeply antisemitic views. It is clear that many British Muslims reserve a special hatred for British Jews, rating Jews much less favourably than people of other religions or no religion, yet astonishingly British Muslims largely do not recognise antisemitism as a major problem.

It has long been suspected that sections of the British Muslim population harboured hatred towards British Jews. This survey goes some way to identifying pockets of prejudice, but it also shows that the prejudice is horrifyingly widespread.

From the ICM survey data made available by Channel 4 and Juniper Television, we have been able to identify some of the worst pockets of prejudice. Antisemitic British Muslims are more likely to be men, to be older than 35, to be social renters, to be in employment, to have been born outside Britain, to live south of the Midlands in England, or in Scotland, and they are overwhelmingly likely to sympathise with terrorism, violence and extremism.

The data is frustratingly limited in one some respects, and one in particular: it does not delve into the various political and religious movements that comprise the British Muslim population.

This data shows that Jews remain the 'canary in the coal mine', as they have been throughout history: those who harbour hatred of Jews also hate British society and sympathise with our most deadly enemies. Britain must confront rampant antisemitism within its Muslim population, but also amongst the general population, whose shocking views should be no less concerning simply because the views of British Muslims are worse.

Read the Report

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 May 16 - 09:23 AM

Interesting article here from this morning's Irish Times.
Jim Carroll

Anti-Semitism claims are used for political End
David Landy and Ronit Lentin
Opposition to Israel must not be confused with the evil hatred of Jewish people.

The recent calls to expel former London mayor Ken Livingstone from the British Labour Party have created a worrying alliance between those who use accusations of anti-Semitism to silence critics of Israel and those who use them to attack supporters of the Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn. The calls for his expulsion came after Livingstone said in a BBC interview that Hitler had supported Zionism "before he went mad and ended up killing six million Jews". The claim itself was clumsy but based on historical fact - Hitler originally sought to expel rather than exterminate European Jews. As part of this, he negotiated the Haavara Agreement with Zionist organisations which allowed some Jews to escape to Palestine with some of their property in return for Zionist opposition to the global boycott of German goods. This was hardly "support for Zionism", but Livingstone's critics went further with fellow Labour MPs accusing him of anti-Semitism.
In response, Livingstone cautioned against "confusing criticism of the Israeli government policy with anti-Semitism", and defended Corbyn, who had been accused of not taking firm enough action against anti-Semitism in the party, which, he said, was part of a smear campaign against the party leader.
Europeans need to face their history of anti-Semitism that culminated in the Nazi Holocaust. Ireland has its own part in that history, the Irish government only admitted 60 Jewish refugees fleeing Nazi persecution between 1933 and 1946. Anti-Semitic sentiments continue - this was clear during the attack on the Hyper Casher supermarket in Paris after the Charlie Hebdo murders.
Israel vs Jews
However, supporters of Israel have sought to widen the definition of anti-Semitism to include those who call themselves anti-Zionist and most recently, those who support the Boycott Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) movement. In this, they use an obsolete formulation from the European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia (EUMC) which includes as a possible sign of anti-Semitism: "denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, eg, by claiming that the existence of a state of Israel is a racist endeavour". The EUMC has since abandoned this wording as it was being used to launch attacks on critics of Israel, rather than to tackle real anti-Semitism.
Such efforts to equate anti-Semitism with anti-Zionism follow the state of Israel in conflating Jews with Zionists, even though not all Jews are Zionists or Israel supporters.
Growing numbers of Jewish people in and outside Israel - international groups such as Jewish Voice for Peace and the International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network, as well as Israeli groups such as Boycott from Within - oppose Israeli policies, do not define themselves as Zionists and support the BDS movement. The growing accusations of anti-Semitism against critics of Israel are aimed primarily at discrediting the successful BDS movement.
Israel has announced a $26 million investment in an anti-BDS campaign. Accusing its non-Jewish critics of anti-Semitism and its Jewish critics of being "self-hating Jews" is a central element of this campaign.
Accusations as weapons
Returning to the Labour Party, the Jewish Socialist Group has attacked the "weaponising" of accusations of anti-Semitism by forces intent on undermining the leadership of Corbyn.
Likewise the group Jews for Boycotting Israeli Goods worries that "the pro-Zionist lobby - Jewish and non-Jewish - deliberately and maliciously seeks to associate Jew-hatred with criticism of Israel in the public mind", despite the insistence by Corbyn's team that "anti-Semitism is a vile prejudice that is not permitted in the Labour Party" and its pledge to expel anyone found guilty of it.
The expulsions have taken on the character of a witch hunt. For instance, Jewish activist Tony Greenstein who has long campaigned against anti-Semitism in Palestine solidarity circles, has been accused of anti-Semitism and suspended from the Labour Party. The collection of scalps has emboldened supporters of Israel with the Britain Israel communications and Research Centre seeking to whip up animosity and tweeting followers to "save your pitch fork for Corbyn".
Such cynical political acts cheapen the grave charge of anti-Semitism. In this atmosphere where such allegations are used to silence political opponents, it is tempting to reject any and all accusations of anti-Semitism. This too must be guarded against - anti-Semitism needs to be tackled wherever it exists. In this battle, there is an urgent need to resist conflating
opposition to Israel with anti-Jewish racism.

David Landy is an assistant professor of sociology and Ronit Lentin is a retired associate professor of sociology at Trinity College Dublin

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 02 May 16 - 09:07 AM

According to a report issued by the Campaign Against Anti-semitism    the number of hate crimes against Jews in Britain has reached a shocking high. Police recorded almost 1,000 anti-Semitic offences in 2015 - up 25 per cent. The findings also revealed that the growth in anti-Semitism is a core part of far-Left ideology.