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Subject: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Joe Offer Date: 23 Jan 18 - 03:47 AM I was in Israel in the early part of December, 2017. It was a Catholic tour, a group of 208 people. Most were Filipino Catholics from Los Angeles - some were part of a Filipino-American choir who had been invited to perform at the Christmas tree lighting at Manger Square in Bethlehem. The tree lighting was a wonderful chance for Palestine to to show off a bit, to show what a civilized and credible nation it has become. Our tour company is owned by an Arab Israeli who lives in Los Angeles. We stayed in Arab-owned hotels in Bethlehem (Palestinian State), Nazareth (Israel, but a totally Arab city), and East Jerusalem. Our tour guide was an Armenian Christian citizen of Israel. He said that both Christians and Muslims feel like second-class citizens in Israel, and generally both Christians and Muslims have the same perspective. I had been in Israel in 1999, and I loved it. Our tour guide was Jewish, wife of the #2 man in Customs in Israel. We stayed in Jewish-owned hotels and saw things mostly from a Jewish perspective (although we were a Catholic pilgrimage group). We were supposed to have our last day free in Jerusalem, but our guide offered us a tour of Jericho, the Dead Sea, and Qumran for $30, and I couldn't pass it up. But I had wanted to walk the walls of the Old City of Jerusalem, and I missed that chance. I signed up for three tours of Israel after that, but two were cancelled because of the poor economy and unrest in Israel, and the third was overbooked. I finally got my chance last month. It was a very nice tour, but my main goal was to spend a day by myself, walking the walls of the Old City. The day that worked for me was Thursday, December 7, and it looked like it would work very well. But then, Trump annnounced on Wednesday that he was going to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel and move the U.S. Embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem. All hell broke loose, and the U.S. Department of State issued travelers' advisories. Our tour guide advised me that it was unwise for me to go to the Old City alone. But I decided that since I had been in Egypt in hotter times, I'd go anyway. So, I went. I got hopelessly lost, but I kinda didn't mind. I finally found the Old City, and spent the day there. I wasn't able to walk the walls around the whole Old City, but I did have time to walk the northern portion. I got to the Damascus Gate, and there was an orderly demonstration there. The demonstration was mostly young women chanting anti-Trump slogans, and there were a few young men being carried away by Israeli security. I wished I had been with those women chanting against Trump, but I don't know if they would have been able to understand. I'm glad I went on Thursday, because there were rubber bullets and tear gas at Damascus Gate on Friday. The Israeli soldiers were all young and seemed very intent on asserting their authority. That's a recipe for problems. If you'd like to take a look here are my photographs:
So, anyhow, after I got home, I found a small article in my favorite Catholic newspaper, the National Catholic Reporter. The article said that Israel is building a high-speed rail system that will carry passengers from Tel Aviv to Israel in 20 minutes, and now they are planning to extend the line under the old city of Jerusalem to an underground station that will be named "Trump Station." I was aghast. The railroad line, slated to open in 2019, sounds like a good idea. But why would they tunnel through an area with four millennia of achaeological treasures to build a railroad stations? And fer crissake, why name it Trump Station? I can't find the brief National Catholic Reporter article, but tthey did have a link to a longer Associate Press article that may have been the source of the article I read. Here's a good article on the topic in the New York Times, replete with a really weird photo of Trump in a yarmulke at the Western Wall. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Joe Offer Date: 23 Jan 18 - 03:58 AM Since we were on a tour with Arab ties, we spent a lot of time in Arab territory, both in the State of Israel and in the Palestinian Territory. Here and there as we drove through Palestine, we'd see a road off to the side marked with a huge flag of Israel. Each road led to a military checkpoint, and behind the checkpoint was a huge, luxurious, new condominium complex, surrounded by a very secure-looking wall. Our guide explained that these were Israeli settlements in Palestinian territory. These settlements seemed to be intentionally provocative, to spit in the faces of the Palestinians who lived in the surrounding area. I've always thought that Israelis were peaceable, well-intentioned people - but these settlements gave a very different message. I suppose this is a controversial subject and may end up in disaster, but I wonder what people think, and I wonder what experiences other people have had of Israel. It certainly is a beautiful place. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: banjoman Date: 23 Jan 18 - 06:21 AM Great set of Photos Joe. I think that the Israelis have a lot to answer for in terms of incitement and provocation. In some measure, its understandable in light of their history. However, they claim to be a nation of peacemakers. I feel that the real problem is that there is confusion between the Nation State and the Jewish religion. Thanks again for the photos and the narrative |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Steve Shaw Date: 23 Jan 18 - 07:00 AM Good perspective, Joe. I've tried to be more careful in recent years how I put things. I've been to a number of European countries, including northern Cyprus, and found without fail that the denizens thereof in all of 'em are just like "us." Same aspirations, same need for a peaceful life, same foibles, same irritating little ways (parking cars all over the pavements, dumping rubbish undetected, trying to kill me on pedestrian crossings) but always friendly, helpful and welcoming in every way, proud of their culture and heritage and rarely out to rip me off (the UK is the worst place I know for that). We had friends who lived on the Dhekelia military base in Cyprus who took us all over the island on three separate visits, and we stayed in Kyrenia, in the unrecognised northern republic, full of lovely people. There were thousands of strutting Turkish soldiers and a huge, threatening Turkish military base in Kyrenia, but the most menacing military guys I saw were on the Greek side near the Green Line checkpoints. Some real gits there. So I'm not over the moon about "the Israelis" having a lot to answer for. Living in a country where most people were kept pig-ignorant of the issues then goaded into voting in a referendum, and seeing what happened in the last US election, I have a feeling that most ordinary Israelis just want to get on with their lives and quite likely take little interest in the politics of the country on anything like a deep level. So I'd rather refer to the Israeli regime, who, in my view, have a hell of a lot to answer for, along with many another faction in the region. I'm pretty sure that is your sentiment too, banjoman. But best not to give the hawks around here any ammunition. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Steve Shaw Date: 23 Jan 18 - 07:12 AM Hugely enjoying the photos, Joe. The "no comment" one is a hoot - I have a few of those that I love to show the Catholics back home. Another place added to the bucket list... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: nickp Date: 23 Jan 18 - 08:09 AM Great photos, thank you for them and the background. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Greg F. Date: 23 Jan 18 - 10:11 AM But why would they tunnel through an area with four millennia of achaeological treasures to build a railroad stations? And fer crissake, why name it Trump Station? To stick a finger in the eye of the Palestinians particularly, the Arab world in general, the U.N., and the Isreli left. That's what dangerous jackasses like Bibi do. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Donuel Date: 23 Jan 18 - 12:01 PM The Indiana Jones aspect of this story is in the one trick pony thread with an accompanying non fiction speculation of the future of this saga. (ego-free) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: beardedbruce Date: 23 Jan 18 - 12:23 PM Too bad you only apply this to Jewish construction... "The Temple Mount Sifting Project (formerly known as the Temple Mount Salvage Operation) is an Israeli archaeological project begun in 2005 dedicated to recovering archaeological artifacts from 400 truckloads of topsoil removed from the Temple Mount by the Waqf during the construction of the underground el-Marwani Mosque from 1996 to 1999 The project is under the academic auspices of Bar Ilan University and until 2017 was funded by the Ir David Foundation and Israel Exploration Society." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: beardedbruce Date: 23 Jan 18 - 12:25 PM https://www.upi.com/News_Photos/Features/Israeli-archaeologists-sift-through-debris-from-the-Temple-Mount/fp/10660/ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 23 Jan 18 - 12:32 PM "why name it Trump Station?" To pay the debt the regime owes to him of course Doesn't seem to matter too much that the station will be named after a racist and antisemite thug of from the same school as those who sent six-million Jews to their deaths during the Holocaust Perhaps there might be a change of heart when Nessie is INDICTED FOR FRAUD as is quite likely Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Greg F. Date: 23 Jan 18 - 12:39 PM Same old "But Mommie, He Hit Me First" nonsense, eh Bruce? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Steve Shaw Date: 23 Jan 18 - 12:58 PM You were right, Joe. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: beardedbruce Date: 23 Jan 18 - 12:58 PM Attacking me rather than discuss why you hold Jews to a different standard than anyone else, eh GregtrF? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 23 Jan 18 - 01:09 PM "Attacking me rather than discuss why you hold Jews to a different standard than anyone else, eh GregtrF?" I thought the definition said that it was antisemitic to implicate the Jewish people in the cations of the actions of Israeli !! Jim Caarroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: beardedbruce Date: 23 Jan 18 - 01:27 PM Sorry, Jimmy boy, the Arabs in Jerusalem may well be Israeli citizens, yet THEY supported the Mosque construction, at the cost of Jewish archeological objects. " 400 truckloads of topsoil removed from the Temple Mount by the Waqf during the construction of the underground el-Marwani Mosque from 1996 to 1999 I was pointing out to the antisemitic GregtrF that NOT ONLY Israeli Jews were risking damaging archeological sites, but ONLY the JEWISH construction is criticized here. That is by definition AntiSemitic. ALL construction on or near the Temple Mount should be rigidly controlled and monitored- NOT JUST Israeli. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: beardedbruce Date: 23 Jan 18 - 01:29 PM I see that the normal Mudcat - "Attack the poster rather than defend your statements" is in full effect by the Liberal Gestapo. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 23 Jan 18 - 01:57 PM "Attack the poster rather than defend your statements" You mean like Sorry, Jimmy boy, " "is in full effect by the Liberal Gestapo." Another of your "brightestr and best" eh Brucie Mind you, you will have the chance to become an expert on the Gestapo if Nessie has his wicked way with Herr Trump Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: bobad Date: 23 Jan 18 - 02:04 PM Contrast Israel's treatment of archaeologic sites with that of Jordan's wanton destruction of sites sacred to Jews during their illegal occupation of east Jerusalem: 58 synagogues were desecrated or demolished in the Old City, resulting in the de-Judaization of Jerusalem.[5][6][7] The Western Wall was transformed into an exclusively Muslim holy site associated with al-Buraq.[8] 38,000 Jewish graves in the ancient Jewish cemetery on the Mount of Olives were systematically destroyed, and Jews were not allowed to be buried there.[5][6] This was all in violation of the Israel-Jordan Armistice Agreement Article VIII - 2 Wikipedia |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: beardedbruce Date: 23 Jan 18 - 02:12 PM But bobdad, it's not like Jimmy boyo thinks that Jews are really human, you know. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Steve Shaw Date: 23 Jan 18 - 02:27 PM Greg, Jim, don't post to this again. I fully respected the sentiment of the opening posts and enjoyed the photos. I wish this had stopped there. Only asking. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: bobad Date: 23 Jan 18 - 02:56 PM These settlements seemed to be intentionally provocative, to spit in the faces of the Palestinians who lived in the surrounding area. Do you not believe that Jews, who have lived in the area for millennia before having been ethnically cleansed by the Jordanians, have the right to build and live there again after having reclaimed their ancestral lands? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Joe Offer Date: 23 Jan 18 - 03:09 PM That's partially right, Bobad. The Jews have made Israel into a wonderful place. And the Arab Israelis have also done the same - Arab areas in Israel like Nazareth are remarkable and beautiful. And in the beautiful city of Haifa, Arabs and Jews and Bahai and others have lived together in relative peace and have built an amazing city from the slopes of Mount Carmel to the Mediterranean. But there is a strong right-wing faction in the Israeli government, and it has played hardball in politics for decades. And for them, it is most important that they assert and retain their power. To make it worse, there are strong factions in Palestine and all over the Middle East that are just as intent on asserting and defending their power. And so, we have the mess we have. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: beardedbruce Date: 23 Jan 18 - 03:24 PM A contributing factor almost always overlooked is that WHEN the Arabs had control of Jewish Holy sites, they destroyed them, or prevented Jews having access to them. NO Israeli government has ever done that to Muslim Holy sites, but the Jews still remember, and will NOT allow it again. NEVER AGAIN. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Joe Offer Date: 23 Jan 18 - 03:52 PM I meant to say more in response to Bobad. As far as I know, "the Jordanians" didn't exists at any of the many times that the Jews suffered "ethnic cleansing"; but they did more-or-less level the Jewish Quarter of the Old City of Jerusalem when they occupied the Old City 1948-67 - and that was a shame and a travesty. But the Arab peoples have lived in Israel as long as the Jews have. The Arabs were there a couple of millennia before they became Muslim. So you can't say the Muslims have no right there because they were latecomers and weren't there until the 7th century. They were there long before that - they just had different religions. I think it's clear that both Arabs and Jews have a right to live in Israel - and in many ways, they live together and make things work and have built a beautiful nation. But there are those in power on both sides who profit from the conflict, and the conflict serves to preserve their power. These people in power are not necessarily bad people, and it's useless to moralize against them even if they are "bad" in our eyes. They just see things differently. They have no concept of the impact of suffering and poverty and powerlessness. The things that little people suffer, are beyond their comprehension. To them, it's all about what's politically expedient. And polarizing the masses and fomenting conflict is politically expedient, so they continue to do it and continue to live in comfortable oblivion to the suffering of so many. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: bobad Date: 23 Jan 18 - 05:03 PM But the Arab peoples have lived in Israel as long as the Jews have. The Arabs were there a couple of millennia before they became Muslim. So you can't say the Muslims have no right there because they were latecomers and weren't there until the 7th century. They were there long before that - they just had different religions. You might find this of interest. It was written by a Canadian M?tis, Ryan Bellerose, who is, as his father before him was, an activist for the rights of indigenous peoples. http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/224254/bellerose-aboriginal-people |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Greg F. Date: 23 Jan 18 - 05:34 PM OK, Steve- you're absolutely right. Same clown(s) posting the same nonsensical bullshit, per omnia saecula saeculorum. I'll try to swear 'em all off - but I can't promise. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Greg F. Date: 23 Jan 18 - 05:36 PM The Jews have made Israel into a wonderful place. Unless you're a Palestinian in the occupied territories, Joe. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Steve Shaw Date: 23 Jan 18 - 05:45 PM Amen, Greg. :-( |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 23 Jan 18 - 06:52 PM "The Jews have made Israel into a wonderful place." Unfortunately, right wing administrations have attempted to do so by excluding non-Jews It is sad to remember that the Jews were exposed to the same process by the Nazis - all my Jewish friends said "never again, not to anybody", but they are now described as Jewish self-haters. You can see some of that here "But bobdad, it's not like Jimmy boyo thinks that Jews are really human, you know." Critiscise the extremist right-wing administration in Israel and you become a Jew hater Working definition of Antisemitism "Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel. However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic." Anybody who construes criticism of Israel is in breach of this definition Bruce and Bobad refuse to respond to this fact - neither have ever produced a single shred of evidence that any off those they have consistently described as "Antisemitic" have ever attacked the Jewish people - this makes them serial antisemites - by definition Bobad and Bruse have refused to comment on this trait in their character - it will be interesting to see if Christian Joe does. I'm comfortable with where I stand regardng the Jewish people I was brought up to despise Antisemitism - when my father saw what was happening in pre-war he volunteered to fight in Spain - he was wounded and imprisoned alongside Jews - three of his former International Brigade comrades turned up at his funeral OI worked with left wing Jews, described by Bruce as "the Liberal Gestapo", in the Peace Movement, and the Anti-Apartheid campaigns - I nearly married the daughter of a Holocaust survivor. This pair are happy to support ISRAEL'S ANTISEMITISM Now they are happy to see an underground station named after THIS ANTISEMITE I'm happy with my position and am not surprised they are happy with theirs Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Joe Offer Date: 23 Jan 18 - 07:00 PM Posted By: Greg F. 23-Jan-18 - 05:36 PM Thread Name: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
The Jews have made Israel into a wonderful place. I'd disagree. Many parts of the occupied territories are showing a lot of progress. I think the Palestinian State is doing a good job. Bethlehem is a wonderful town. Jericho is far better than it was when I visited there in 1999. Yes, there are places of poverty and misery, but things are improving. I believe in the Palestinian State. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: bobad Date: 23 Jan 18 - 07:13 PM Unless you're a Palestinian in the occupied territories So let's unpack that Greg. The terminology of "occupation" is derived from the actual lack of legal status to the territories over the "Green Cease-fire Line" agreed upon in the 1949 Rhodes Armistice Agreements. No borders have been established or recognized by the parties. Armistice lines do not establish borders, and the 1949 Armistice Agreements in particular specifically stated (at Arab insistence) that they were not creating permanent or de jure borders. Territories are only "occupied" if they are captured in war from an established and recognized sovereign, but no state had a legitimate or recognized sovereignty over the West Bank, Gaza Strip or East Jerusalem prior to the Six-Day War. Legally the Jews were recognized as "cestui sue trust" of the political rights to them as embodied in the Treaty of S?vres (Section VII, Art 94-97) with regard to the Palestine mandate which was finally confirmed by the Council of the League of Nations on 24 July 1922. As for your use of "Palestinian" a Palestinian is simply an inhabitant of Palestine. There are Jewish, Christian, Muslim and non-believers who are Palestinian. Palestinian is simply a national designation like Canadian or American. There are no racial, ethnic or religious criteria for being a Palestinian. Only by right of birth, naturalization and descent does one become a Palestinian, as in most other countries. BTW, my wife's family were real Palestinians, not the fake Palestinians of Yasser Arafat's creation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: bobad Date: 23 Jan 18 - 08:02 PM The thing is that people like Shaw and Greg avoid public debate because they know that they are in fact on the wrong side. So I too say goodnight to you Greg. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Joe Offer Date: 24 Jan 18 - 01:36 AM I haven't seen the refugee camps, but I have heard that they are bleak, hopeless places. I was favorably impressed by Jericho and Bethany and Bethlehem on the West Bank, and by the territory along the Jordan Valley. Our tour guide told me that Ramallah is also one of the nicest cities in Palestine. Along the road from Jerusalem to Jericho, there were some housing areas that looked like barrios in Mexicali - dirt floors and rooftops of corrugated metal. I couldn't tell if these were permanent homes, or if they were temporary quarters for sheepherders. But I get the feeling that the Palestinians are taking real pride in themselves as a nation. I think that's a great sign of hope. We went to the Christmas tree lighting in Manger Square in Bethlehem. It was a chance for Palestine to show off their stuff, and they did a good job of it with an animated LED Christmas tree and high-tech lighting, and great fireworks. The Prime Minister of Palestine spoke, and the mayor of Bethlehem. There was an element of small-town corniness to it, but I liked it. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Donuel Date: 24 Jan 18 - 07:03 AM In a true story about false motives, ego, international politics, religion and conspiracy theories comes a saga akin to Indiana Jones and the Dome of the Rock. Enter Donald Trump's ego fed with plastering his name on a train station at the Western Wall that will carve tunnels for 2 miles under the ancient Hebrew Temple. This is where the current Dome of the Rock mosque sits. The director of transportation AND intelligence officer for Israel Mr. Katz sold Donald Trump the project idea easily by presenting it to him as an honorary gift. Donald knows not what may be excavated in chambers under the Temple be it the arc of the covenant ;^| or other mysteries, nor would he care. However Muslims do care about the real estate above the tunnel that is currently theirs. Cue the soundtrack to Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade. This plot thickening Trump tunnel story will erupt again and when if does it will be explosive. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 24 Jan 18 - 07:43 AM Not one of you people have even bothered to refer to the Implications of Israel'sw admiration of the world's most dangerous and unstable leader - your attempts at appeasement to ethic cleansing are somewhat pathetic Joe Isreal ceased to speak for the Jewish people as a whole when, after the massacre of 3'500 unarmed refugees at Sabra-Shatila, it elected the man its own enquiry deemed responsible Prime Minister https://www.hrw.org/news/2014/01/11/israel-ariel-sharons-troubling-legacy This article in this morning's Times, sums up for me what has happened to Modern Israel; the one ray of hope is the humanity displayed by Jewish people in the face of the inhumanity of the Regime Jim Carroll HOLOCAUST SURVIVORS HELP SAVE MIGRANTS FROM REMOVAL Israel Anshel Pfeffer Jerusalem A plan to deport 38,000 migrants from Israel to Africa was on the verge of col?lapse last night amid growing domestic opposition and a failure to agree terms with Rwanda. Holocaust survivors have criticised the plan and Israeli pilots have refused to fly the migrants out of the country. Yesterday Yehuda Bauer, a survivor and renowned Holocaust historian, compared the migrants' plight to that of Jews who escaped to Israel after the Second World War. The deal with Rwanda was developed after Binyamin Netanyahu, the prime minister, ordered the National Security Council to speed up the deportation of migrants, mostly from Eritrea and Sudan, who had entered the country illegally from Egypt. The migrants were to be given the option of receiving $3,500 in cash and being resettled in Rwanda, or being jailed indefinitely. Most of those targeted in the scheme said they had escaped warfare and repression but Israel's government defines almost all of them as economic migrants. Of the 4,000 migrants whose requests for political asylum had been processed, only ten had been approved, refugee organisations said. Mr Netanyahu responded to critics, saying that "the infiltrators can co-operate and leave in a respectable and humane way or we will use other methods. What we are doing is totally legal and necessary. Israel's prison service has informed the government that it does not have space to incarcerate migrants who refuse to be deported. Legal opinions obtained by the government have raised question marks over whether deportation to a third country is lawful. Rwanda, the 'third country' to which the refugees were to be deported, seems to have gone cold on the deal. "The government of Rwanda wishes to inform that it has never signed any secret deal with Israel regarding the re?location of African migrants," the government's Twitter account announced. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: bobad Date: 24 Jan 18 - 08:35 AM under the ancient Hebrew Temple. This is where the current Dome of the Rock mosque sits. The grand mufti of Jerusalem, Sheikh Muhammad Ahmad Hussein the Muslim cleric in charge of the Al-Aqsa Mosque, says that there has never been a Jewish temple atop the Temple Mount, and that the site has been home to a mosque “since the creation of the world.” Arafat and Abbas have also tried to deny the historical Jewish connection to Jerusalem by claiming that no evidence has been found to prove any historical connection. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 24 Jan 18 - 08:40 AM Proof of ethnic cleansing PALESTINIAN REFUGEES Confirmation, if needed "There is no such thing as Palestine in history, absolutely not." Golda Meir Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Greg F. Date: 24 Jan 18 - 10:10 AM I'd disagree. Well, Joe, I'd pick up the discussion but my posts would likely just magically disappear (again) so what's the point? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Greg F. Date: 24 Jan 18 - 10:28 AM Former Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon was so intent on assassinating Palestinian Liberation Organization chairman Yasser Arafat in the 1980s that he considered downing commercial passenger planes “Since World War II, Israel has used assassination and targeted-killing more than any other country in the West, in many cases endangering the lives of civilians,” Bergman wrote. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/23/magazine/how-arafat-eluded-israels-assassination-machine.html? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 24 Jan 18 - 11:08 AM The biggest eye-opener I ever got was the documentary, 'THE GATEKEEPERS ' where six former directors of the Israeli Security Forces described on camera what their job was At least two of the interviews fall well into the many-times readjusted definition of the term 'Antisemitism' Right from the horses mouth from six Jews devoted to the Jewish people rather than the politicians Well worth a viewing if the Israeli powers-that-be (with the aid of their new ally, Trump) ever allow it to be shown again Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: bobad Date: 24 Jan 18 - 11:10 AM Well good thing he only considered it eh Greg, unlike the thug Arafat who was responsible for killing thousands. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Greg F. Date: 24 Jan 18 - 11:13 AM "Since World War II, Israel has used assassination and targeted-killing more than any other country in the West" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: bobad Date: 24 Jan 18 - 11:28 AM And those targeted were responsible for the deaths of thousands of Jews. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 24 Jan 18 - 11:31 AM "And those targeted were responsible for the deaths of thousands of Jews." The have targeted anybody who gets in their way - go count the non-combatant deaths Hitler used exactly the same excuse when Lidice was wiped out Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: bobad Date: 24 Jan 18 - 11:40 AM Damn those Jews for not letting themselves be peacefully killed, eh? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 24 Jan 18 - 11:48 AM 2Damn those Jews for not letting themselves be peacefully killed, eh?" Damn the bastards who excuse the Israeli Regime for behaving in exactly the same way and then allow them to blame the Jewish people for it A JEWISH VIEW Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Greg F. Date: 24 Jan 18 - 12:47 PM And those targeted were responsible for the deaths of thousands of Jews. But Mommie- Billy hit me first! You & BrucedBeard should perform as a duet, Boo. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: bobad Date: 24 Jan 18 - 01:00 PM Here you go Greg: List of Jews killed by terrorists in Israel (1993 to present) List of Jews killed by terrorists worldwide (1953 to 2003) Like I said damn those Jews for not letting themselves be peacefully killed, eh Greg. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: beardedbruce Date: 24 Jan 18 - 01:27 PM So, GregtrF, you are ok with people killing Jews, but object to THEM being killed after they have killed Jews??? And YOU are the Liberal Poster boy here that can tell us all what to think... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 24 Jan 18 - 01:32 PM One minute you are blaming Jews for Israeli atrocities, next you are pointing out how many are being killed Do you not see the link between the two? People who blame the Jewish people for what Israel is doing are directly responsible for the rise in Antisemitism You are the only ones to have brought the Jewish peole into this discussion |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 24 Jan 18 - 01:50 PM "So, GregtrF, you are ok with people killing Jews, but object to THEM being killed after they have killed Jews???" And you believe slaughtering civilians is an answer to terrorism - an eye for an eye You pair really are a bunch of racist savages bobad's list don't even add up to the number of women and children slaughtered in the last illegal incursion into Gaza - slaughtered by heavy artillery and anti personnel weapons You can't eve count the number who have been made homeless You pair are the ones who blame the Jews for all this - we blame Donald Trump's friend Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: beardedbruce Date: 24 Jan 18 - 02:04 PM jimmy boyo, I do not agree that there has been ANY "illegal incursion into Gaza". First you claim Israel is occupying territory, then you claim they are invading that territory? Look at the treat between Jordan and Israel. Look for the boundaries agreed to. The West Bank is Israeli territory that COULD become a Palestinian state AFTER NEGOTIATION- Which the Palestinians refuse to do. Would YOU say that it OK for the Israelis to treat the Palestinians on the West Bank THE VERY SAME WAY that the Arab League treated the Jews that were on the West Bank in 1948? Yes or No: If No, WHY NOT????? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: beardedbruce Date: 24 Jan 18 - 02:17 PM "And you believe slaughtering civilians is an answer to terrorism - an eye for an eye" No I do not. YOU should not judge others by what YOU think. It is OK after trial to execute people who have been convicted of murder. When those executions are by Jews, you call them assassinations. But you have praised and supported the killing of innocent civilian, including women and children ( as long as they are Jews, or Israeli Arabs that happen to be in the way), BY the Palestinians. So I think rather that YOU and GregtrF are the "bunch of racist savages" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 24 Jan 18 - 02:20 PM " I do not agree that there has been ANY "illegal incursion into Gaza". I'm sure that anybody who believes it right to slaughter man women and children would never believe such a thing of the Isreali regime Not would anybody who blames the Jewish people for such atrocities Keep it up lads - you are making our argument for us Sick antisemites - the pair of you Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: beardedbruce Date: 24 Jan 18 - 02:38 PM And you do not answer the question. Would YOU say that it OK for the Israelis to treat the Palestinians on the West Bank THE VERY SAME WAY that the Arab League treated the Jews that were on the West Bank in 1948? Yes or No: If No, WHY NOT????? YOU are the antisemite- and the racist savage. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 24 Jan 18 - 02:49 PM One last comment before I shut doen fro the night This thread is about the fact that a new station is to be named after Donald Trumps Trump is an open racist, an antisemite surrounded by antisemitesa misogynist and has been described He draws a great deal of support from the Ku Klux Klan, who, historically are the leading antisemitic group in the United States with a history of persecuting American Jews He has allowed them back on the streets of America - should the Klan gain enough strength to do so they will no doubt return to their old habits of persecuting Jews and defacing and burning Synagogues S concerned are these two for the Jewish people that they have offered not a single word, either of defence or support for the fact that this is the man who is about to be immortalised by having a Jerusalem railway statione named after hium The Jewish people really do need supporters like Bruce and Bobad - don't they!!! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 24 Jan 18 - 02:51 PM Should read "and has been described by his own supporters as "unstable" Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: beardedbruce Date: 24 Jan 18 - 03:20 PM Trump was a bad choice- But the alternative was worse. But you have not answered the question: Would YOU say that it OK for the Israelis to treat the Palestinians on the West Bank THE VERY SAME WAY that the Arab League treated the Jews that were on the West Bank in 1948? Yes or No: If No, WHY NOT????? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Joe Offer Date: 24 Jan 18 - 03:31 PM Well, here's a post from Greg that was deleted. I deleted the part that resorted to name-calling, but here's the rest:
From: Greg F. - PM Date: 23 Jan 18 - 07:07 PM Disagree all you want, Joe. However, any number of human rights organizations with excellent records of credibility and decades of selfless service would beg to differ with your facile assessment. Get real. Or go talk to a few Palestinians living under the illegal occupation. I was there, Greg. I talked to the people. I saw the cities, and I saw that the cities were doing pretty well - much better than many of the cities I saw in Egypt. I said that I did not see the refugee camps. Those camps are 70 years old now, and generations have been born and raised there. From what I understand, living conditions in these camps are deplorable - and I said all that above, Jim and Greg. The reality may not agree with your propaganda, but what I saw and described is the truth. There is both good and bad in Palestine, but the Nation of Palestine is making real progress and deserves credit for it. I think there is great hope for Palestine....and I think that East Jerusalem should be declared the Capital of Palestine. What's sauce for the goose, is sauce for the gander. I'm a pacifist, and I do not believe in the efficacy of warfare or revolution. Warfare and revolution only serve to transfer power from one strongman to another - and all the people do is suffer. Strongmen thrive on fomenting animosity among the masses. The only thing powerful enough to defeat the strongmen, is when little people have the integrity to overcome the hatred and work with each other. Trump and his alt-right supporters thrive on misinformation and propaganda that sets one faction against another. They create bigotry and anger because it destabilizes and disempowers the masses, and magnifies the power of the Trump Elite. The Trump Elite, just like the wealthy elite everywhere, have no concern for the little people. They find it offensive to have to provide healthcare and pensions and a living wage, or to allow people to migrate from one country to another fo find work and a safe place to live. It's not that the Trump Elite are bad people, although some of them are. The elite have absolutely no concept of what it is to have to work for a living. Just like those who have been enraged into animosity and bigotry by the Trump propaganda, Jim and Greg buy into that same animosity and bigotry - but from the other side. The only way for good to prevail, is for good people to work together. And there are good people on both sides of the conflict in Israel and Palestine. It's just that they're not in power. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Greg F. Date: 24 Jan 18 - 06:45 PM The reality may not agree with your propaganda, Not my propaganda, Joe. Take it up with the U.N., the American Friends Service Committee, Amnesty International, dozens of other human rights organizations and, by the way, Israelis to the left of Likud. Of course, they're all wrong and you're right. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Joe Offer Date: 24 Jan 18 - 07:07 PM Maybe, Greg, maybe sometime you will grow up and learn the difference between the words "some" and "all." I regularly read and understand and appreciate regular notices from the UNHCR, the American Friends Service Committee, Amnesty International. I support all of the organizations you mention and occasionally donate to some of them. Most things, most groups, and most countries have some good and some bad. Rarely is anything all good or all bad. Time for you to learn the difference. Here's another word for you to learn: "balance." The only word you seem to understand, is "combat." -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 24 Jan 18 - 07:39 PM "Trump was a bad choice- But the alternative was worse." You people are pathetic - you scream "Jew hater" whenever anybody criticisms Israel yet you accept honouring an antisemite without a word of criticism You strut and fret about "Leftie liberals", displaying your own extreme right wing politics like a badge of honour Bobad produced the largest cut-n-paste I have ever seen on this forum in an attempt to prove Muslims had been monsters right back to early Christian times - his sources - mainly Muslim Watch and The White Supremacist - extreme fascist websites of the kind that sent six million Jews to their deaths It is often forgotten that, while we remember the six million Jews that died in the Holocaust, alongside them were Gypsies, those regarded as mental deficits TRADES UNIONISTS, COMMUNISTS, SOCIALISTS, HUMANISTS, ANYBODY VAGUELY LEFT WING all victims of right wing thugs who expressed similar views to your own, especially towards other cultures German RIGHT WING capitalism in the shape of Krupps, I G Farben and Volkwagen profited by Jewish slave labour, financed the people who created The Holocaust, and sent their slaves to be exterminated when they were too weak to work any more If you want to learn the role of those who shared your political views I suggest you avail yourself of Martin Gilbert's 'Holocaust' (Gilbert is a great Jewish historian, by the way) You admirers of Trump, Farrage and Netunyahu need to take time out to remember that it was their right wing politics that filled the mass graves of Auschwitz and Buchenwald Joe You carefully avoid commenting on the way Palestinians, and Bedouins are gradually being driven out of land they have occupied for millennia in order to create a 'pure' Jewish nation - millions of decent Jews, holocaust survivors and their families, American groups like 'Jews for Justice', 'Rabbis for Justice', Jewish humanists, intellectuals are protesting, taking to the streets and writing about the atrocities that are takking place there - teh ghettos, the Berlin-type Wall, the ten year blockage in order to force Palestinians into submission to the persecution, the evictions and the illegal settlements Palestinians make up the single largest (7.2 million) and longest established national group of refugees driven from their home and refused the right to return on this planet at the present time And you describe our opposition to this as "bigoted animosity" You should be ashamed of yourself Try a little humanity and soul-searching Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Steve Shaw Date: 24 Jan 18 - 08:01 PM It is very regrettable, though utterly predictable, that this thread has turned out the way it has. Unfortunately, Joe, despite your valiant attempts to be neutral, you haven't managed it at all if you're leaving posts alone from bobad and Bruce yet deleting posts from Greg. In so doing you are fomenting, naively, an anti-Palestinian hate-fest. I know that that is not your intention, but understanding the agenda of the ratbags who will pounce on these threads at the merest mention of the word "Israel" (they probably have some kind of alert set on their computers) is vital. I've warned you in PMs about bobad, haven't I, and I know for a fact that one of the other mods "protects" him. Ask me privately if you like. As for Bruce, you really do have to ask yourself, looking at his negative and hate-filled posts on this thread among many others, why he's still here while akenaton and Teribus are not. Just musings, Joe. This is your gig, not mine. But you have the means, not I, to make this a better place. I really hope that this thread has taught you that lesson. You will probably delete this post (I've copied it as a precaution), but, if you do, please ask yourself whether it's because you hate what I'm saying or simply whether it's embarrassing. The thread started so well, didn't it. I loved your photos and have put Jerusalem, Bethlehem and Nazareth on my bucket list. Cheers.
-Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: beardedbruce Date: 24 Jan 18 - 08:16 PM So, Jimmy boy, you still don't answer the question why you approve of the Arab's removal of Jews from 1948, but not the far less effective Israeli resettlement of the West Bank. But you never have answered questions, just accused others of being what you demonstrate yourself to be by your posts. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Greg F. Date: 24 Jan 18 - 08:16 PM Most things, most groups, and most countries have some good and some bad. Rarely is anything all good or all bad. Time for you to learn the difference. Time for you to learn to read and reason, Joe. Where have I maintained this all good/all bad dichotomy you attribute to me? As for the Palestinians, I'm sure that you as a tourist know much better the real state of things than those who have spent years or their entire lives there. I guess the only word YOU understand is "hubris". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Greg F. Date: 24 Jan 18 - 08:22 PM And there are good people on both sides of the conflict in Israel.... Absolutely, Joe - just like the good Nazis, good white supremacists, good racists, good anti-Semites that Trump praised in Charlottesville. You bet. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 24 Jan 18 - 08:30 PM "So, Jimmy boy, you still don't answer the question why you approve of the Arab's removal of Jews from 1948, but not the far less effective Israeli resettlement of the West Bank." Why should I answer any of your questions - you have responded to none of mine - Trump, your support for the Fascism that sent millions to their deaths, your extreme right politicas, your accusing the Jews of Israeli atrocities,..... Now you are resorting to historical evasion I'll answer any question you like when you explain your open support for an Antisemite like Trump "Trump was a bad choice" You are criticising Israel - that makes you an antisemite, doesn't it? You really aren't very good at this - are you? Jim Carroll By the way, a reminder to Bruce Bobad andd Joe - all of whom have called me an anti semite on one occasion or another My offer of a generous donation to a named charity for any example of my ever attacking, THE JEWISH PEOPLE still stands What a sad, sorry bunch Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Joe Offer Date: 25 Jan 18 - 01:39 AM Jim Carroll says: You carefully avoid commenting on the way Palestinians, and Bedouins are gradually being driven out of land they have occupied for millennia in order to create a 'pure' Jewish nation - millions of decent Jews, holocaust survivors and their families, American groups like 'Jews for Justice', 'Rabbis for Justice', Jewish humanists, intellectuals are protesting, taking to the streets and writing about the atrocities that are taking place there - teh ghettos, the Berlin-type Wall, the ten year blockage in order to force Palestinians into submission to the persecution, the evictions and the illegal settlements Palestinians make up the single largest (7.2 million) and longest established national group of refugees driven from their home and refused the right to return on this planet at the present time And you describe our opposition to this as "bigoted animosity" You should be ashamed of yourself Try a little humanity and soul-searching Jim Carroll Can't say I know enough about the Bedouins to comment, Jim; and I don't know of any significant removal of Palestinians. I only reported what I saw - and I did see that the Palestinian State is making good progress, although it has a long way to go. I'm wondering if those corrougated metal shacks I saw on the Jericho Road were Bedouins. That was the worst housing that I saw, but I did not see much of it. You won't like hearing me say this, but I wonder if the Wall had an unexpected side effect - it seems to me that the Wall may have solidified the resolve of Palestinians to build their own nation. Way up at the top of this thread, I did speak of the Jewish settlements and what I thought of them. I expected to see a few small outposts here and there, but not the case. These settlements are huge and ostentatiously lavish in appearance, and there is a great number of them, and they are protected by military force. I neglected to say that I read that in the building of some of the settlements, the Israelis bulldozed some homes where Palestinians had lived for fifty years. That's not something that I observed myself, but I read that and I believe it. Ok, I suppose I have to admit that I "carefully avoid commenting on the way Palestinians, and Bedouins are gradually being driven out of land." I tried to report only what I had observed myself, the good and the bad - and I think I did that fairly. But go and visit Arab towns like Bethlehem and Nazareth and Bethany and Jericho and East Jerusalem. I think you'll be impressed - and I think that's proof that Palestinians deserve to have a nation of their own. I don't know why you find that opinion to be offensive. You dismiss me as "only a tourist," but I am a seasoned world traveler and I think a pretty good observer. I make a point of walking cities by myself and taking public transportation and stopping to talk with people. I go off by myself because I don't like being in an "American bubble." If I'm alone, people are more likely to talk. Go to Palestine, Jim. I think you'll like it. And Beardedbruce, I am intentionally ignoring what you say about what anyone did in 1948. I know that people like you and Jim Carroll work very hard to keep 70-year-old grudges alive, but I think those grudges are irrelevant. The ideologues work hard to keep that animosity alive, because it keeps them in power. I'll stick with those who are working to resolve the issues, not prolong them. Go to Palestine, Bruce. I think you'll like it. Don't go to Palestine, Greg. You'll just end up getting arrested - by the Palestinian authorities. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: robomatic Date: 25 Jan 18 - 02:28 AM To the powers that be: Thanks for leaving the thread open, so far. We've been getting the same entrenched positions and, unfortunately, the usual name calling. Whether or not the name calling is accurate I do not venture to comment, but for sure it isn't going to convince anyone of anything, and that includes Trump. Joe, I value your opening of this thread in spite of the obvious danger of where it would go. I had a Catholic co-worker visit the Middle East about thirty years ago, and he came back spouting the Palestinian viewpoint, although it was more in sadness than in vitriol. I asked him if he'd talked to any Israelis or people from other backgrounds, and he had not. You made clear in your opening posts that you have given consideration to both sides, moreover you have seen the situation with your own eyes, which I have not yet done. There is nothing like a personal viewing. Thank you for writing about yours. My current attitude is no news: I'm a partisant for Israel as a Jewish State. I would go along if the Israelis wanted to exchange land for peace, but I do not believe the Palestinians in power want peace, and this is not new. Yasir Arafat refused a pretty good deal during the Clinton summit towards the end of his second term. The Palestinian government has been prey to corruption and religious extremism. That doesn't mean the Israelis don't have similar issues, but they do a far better job of exposing them and they actually have had a working democratic government for their lengthening history (Israel turns 70 this May as a modern state). I believe you when you report the feelings of Muslim and Christian Palestinians, but would they be better off in any of the border countries? I had the opportunity of talking to some local Palestinians here in Alaska. They were charming and frank; among their opinions was they hated Shiite Muslims more than they hated Jews, they felt that among the sins of Israel were the coming of African immigrants and gay liberation. They also said that as an American Jew I should visit Israel. They are right about that list bit. As a student, I got to visit Rome once, we had an excellent guide, and when she told us there were 400 churches in Rome, presumably most/all Catholic, I responded without thinking with a question of "how many synagogue?" "Four" she answered, (part of me was surprised there were any). I visited one of them, on a week day so very few people. It was sad to see military guards with machine guns guarding the Temple (This was in the 1970s, so memories of the Six Day War were fresh). There was a gift shop therein and the woman running it knew some English. I mentioned that I'd heard that Jews were not supposed to walk under the Arch of Titus because it commemmorated the conquest and sacking of Jerusalem. Her answer was "We can walk under it now, we have Jerusalem back!" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Joe Offer Date: 25 Jan 18 - 02:40 AM Hi, robomatic - thanks for your comments in the thread. I get a little overwhelmed by the ideologues. I haven't dared to lay one bombshell, and I don't know if I'll be able to do it. Oh, well, what the hell? While things in Palestine are looking up, the truth is that Arabs in Israel have a terrific standard of living, and the Jewish and Arab Israelis have built an absolutely beautiful and prosperous country. In some ways, it seems like the people of Palestine would be better off to give in and ask to unite with Israel. The trouble is, I'm not sure that Israel would be willing to incorporate the Palestinian Territory, because that would give the Palestinians a vast and instant majority in the Knesset. What would happen then? -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Joe Offer Date: 25 Jan 18 - 03:32 AM Jim and Greg_F and Beardedbruce and all the rest of you who are out for blood, you have to realize that many of us are here to discuss and learn, and don't claim to have all the answers that you have sworn yourselves to support. We're still in the process of learning. So, Jim and Greg_F and Beardedbruce, have you ever been to Israel and Palestine? Maybe you're in the learning stage, too, and just don't realize it? -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 25 Jan 18 - 04:23 AM "We're still in the process of learning." What kind of pathetic question is that Joe I have never been to Vietnam, but I don't need tyo have to realise that pouring burningpetrol onto peasants is evil There has been enough information streaming out of Israel since it was founded to make up your mind on what is happening there How many Knesset Council meetings did you visit, how many prisons did you visit, did you get a chance to drop in on - did you get a chance to drop in on Mordachai Vannunu while you were there....? There is a world-wide movement against what is happening at present and it has taken over 100 vetoes at the UN by your government to keep the Israeli regime out of the International criminal courts for their bahaviour You really seem to have fallen in love with this regime People visit these countries and are shown what they are allowed to be shown, and some see what they want to see My late friend, Tom Munnelly, a humanist with no strong political links, attended the International Ballad Conference in Jerusalem some time in the late 1980s - we still have a post card from him which says simply "Beam me up Scotty" He later told us of witnessing the smartly uniformed young men constantly humiliating, stopping and searching Palestinian men women and children, lines of frightened Arab children being spat on and dodging the taunts and stones of their Israeli contemporaries, the racist comments from virtually every Israeli the talked to.... he said the atmosphere was that of a World War Two film outside the conference meetings. Tou have had opportunity enough here to join discussions on Sabra Shatila (3,500 refugees massacred, women raped and left with their throats cut, pregnant women disemoelled and the foeteses left lying beside their corpses... three days and nights worth of this overseen by the Israeli troops who had armed the killers, transported them to the site and provided illumination so the killing could go on day and night) The man responsible became Prime Minister - obviously another of your "bad apples" How man discussions have we had on the incursions into Gaza, the civilian slaughter, the destruction of homes, the Israeli death-squads mopping up the survivors, the chemical and anti-personell weapons, the massive slaughter of civilians and wholesale destruction of homes, schools and hospitals We forget all this because Joe Offer has just come back from his trip and wound the place wonderful You want to know what is happening in the Middle East at present, go read it up - anything from 'Amnesty' or the United Nations will suffice You might start here (can't blue clickie) https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/middle-east-and-north-africa/israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/ Enjoy, if you have the balls to read it through Sorry Joe - I don't "enjoy" that sort of thing Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 25 Jan 18 - 05:37 AM IN CASE YOU MISSED THIS Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Greg F. Date: 25 Jan 18 - 08:49 AM So, Jim and Greg_F and Beardedbruce, have you ever been to Israel and Palestine? Maybe you're in the learning stage, too, and just don't realize it? .............I am a seasoned world traveler Hubris again,Joe, so I repeat: I'm sure that you as a tourist [ or any tourist would ] know much better the real state of things than those who have spent years or their entire lives there. I suppose at some point you intend to actually speak to the points I've raised rather than hurl insults and make lame "jokes"? Or perhaps not. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Joe Offer Date: 25 Jan 18 - 09:23 AM So, I guess it's clear that Jim Carroll and Greg_F haven't actually been to Palestine and Israel, huh? Jim, I don't remember having said anything good about the government of Israel. I did applaud the Nation of Palestine for the progress it has made in spite of what Israel has done. Israel has been ruled by a corrupt, right-wing coalition for most of the last thirty years. The opposition in the Knesset is significant, but not sufficient to take the upper hand. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Donuel Date: 25 Jan 18 - 09:35 AM I would like to know why the Israel director of transportation is also an intelligence officer. The intelligence officer and transportation minister Mr. Katz sold Donald Trump the project idea easily by presenting it to him as an honorary gift. Why was Mr. Katz chosen to be the Trump gift giver? Wouldn't that be something for their president to bequeath? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: bobad Date: 25 Jan 18 - 10:12 AM For those who continuously toss out the classic anti-Semitic trope that the Jews stole their land from the "Palestinians" this history of land ownership in Palestine may hopefully open your mind to the truth (which is highly doubtable but it never hurts to try) Land Ownership in Palestine, 1880-1948 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: bobad Date: 25 Jan 18 - 10:24 AM Arabs in Israel have a terrific standard of living Yes and they also have the longest life expectancy of Arabs in any Arab or Muslim majority country. It seems that the Jews just can't get this genocide thing right........lol. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Joe Offer Date: 25 Jan 18 - 11:13 AM Yes, Bobad, by European standards of land ownership, the Jews took possession of Palestinian lands legitimately. But the Palestinian people who lived on the land for millennia, didn't operate by European standards of land ownership. The Arabs were squatters in Israel since before the arrival of Abraham. And you say the Arabs have no right to the land? By the way, more-or-less the same thing happened when Europeans arrived in the Americas and Australia. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: bobad Date: 25 Jan 18 - 11:17 AM And you say they have no right to the land? Except I never said that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: bobad Date: 25 Jan 18 - 11:20 AM The Arabs were squatters in Israel since before the arrival of Abraham. Source please. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Joe Offer Date: 25 Jan 18 - 12:35 PM My source, Bobad? Genesis 15:18-21. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: bobad Date: 25 Jan 18 - 12:52 PM The myth of an indigenous "Palestinian" population that had it's land stolen from them by the Jews is simply that - a myth. In fact this CENSUS done by a Dutchman, Hadriani Relandi in 1695 finds virtually no Arab presence whatsoever in Palestine. The truth of the matter is that the vast, overwhelming majority of Arabs living in Palestine arrived there between 1831 and 1947 brought in by the colonizers. The earlier ones came from Egypt and Sudan after the conquest of the Land of Israel by Egypt?s Mohammed Ali (1831-1840). Libyan migrants settled in Gedera, south of Tel Aviv. Algerian refugees escaped the French conquest of 1830 and settled in Safed alongside Syrians and Jordanian Bedouins in Tiberias. Circassian refugees, fleeing Russian oppression (1878), and Moslems from Bosnia, Turkmenistan, and Yemen (1908), further diversified the Arab demography west of the Jordan River. Arab migrant workers were imported by the Ottoman Empire, and then by the British Mandate, to work in major civilian and military infrastructure projects. Legal and illegal Arab migrants were also attracted by economic growth, which was generated by the Jewish community beginning in 1882. They came from Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Yemen, Libya, North Africa, Bosnia, India, Afghanistan, etc. Britain enticed Arab immigration and blocked Jewish immigration. I am disappointed to find someone like Joe, who professes to being a good Christian, perpetuating this demonizing myth, something which I would expect from some of our other, let's say, ideologically driven members. For crissake just take a look at this MAP. Virtually all the green except for the Arabian peninsula was taken from the indigenous peoples by force and is maintained as such to this day. That tiny red speck is Israel. Why so many today begrudge a relative handful of people, a people who have been persecuted throughout history, this tiny piece of land for a homeland is beyond my comprehension. I can only attribute it to one thing - hatred. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: bobad Date: 25 Jan 18 - 12:57 PM My source, Bobad? Genesis 15:18-21. And the Qu'ran says that Allah gave the land to the Israelites. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Steve Shaw Date: 25 Jan 18 - 01:03 PM You give every impression that you want us to hate the Jews so that you can have a handle for your arguments. What a shame for you that we just don't. None of us. I've never once seen anybody on this forum expressing or implying hatred for Jews, and neither have you. I have seen a lot of people who want everyone who lives TODAY in that region to be treated like equal human beings. I'm not posting again to this particular facet of the argument because I don't like talking to you. I'm sure you will feel free to bite back. Go ahead. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 25 Jan 18 - 01:25 PM "So, I guess it's clear that Jim Carroll and Greg_F haven't actually been to Palestine and Israel, huh?" And I guess you haven't been following what has been going on in Israel for the last 90 years, huhy? You are refusing to face facts just as you did with what was happening in your church - hopefully for your sake, I hope you doin't dig the same hole for yourself Now this argument is back to whether people people who have settled the area for well over 1000 years have any claim to live there Utter, inhuman madness I wonder where such an argument would leave the present American, Sustralian and New Zealand populations if the same criteria were applied I suppose it is a waste of time for me to ask you to respond to the links on Sabra and the Human Rights Watch survey - you seem to have chosen your side It seems that you have no right to comment on what is happening in any pert of the world you have never visited Some more links for you to ignore THE POPE IS AN ANTISEMITE UNITED NATIONS Land Seziure (won't blue clickie) https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/israel-passes-bill-to-seize-private-palestinian-land-for-jewish-settlements/2017/02/06/b6d14220-ec90-11e6-a100-fdaaf400369a_story.html?utm_term=.262dff4f5db2 FIFTY YEARS OF ABUSES SCHOOL ATTACKS HOSPITAL ATTACKS RABBIS SAY END OCCUPATION Enjoy - or not, as teh case may be Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Greg F. Date: 25 Jan 18 - 01:41 PM Hi, Joe- So, I guess it's clear that Jim Carroll and Greg_F haven't actually been to Palestine and Israel, huh? I'm sure that you as a tourist, Joe, or any tourist, would know much better the real state of things than those who have spent years or their entire lives there. Or than those organizations world-wide that report on the situation. By the way, of those organizations you belong to as per 24 Jan 18 - 07:07 PM - Do you REALLY read what they publish as to the situation confronting the Palestinians (and Jewish dissidents in Israel) since you dismiss their descriptions and analysis of the situation out of hand? Are they just another bunch of bigots looking for combat? I reposted one message from Greg that somebody else had deleted, but I left out the name-calling. You mean like calling someone a source of "propaganda" (24 Jan 18 - 03:31 PM),a bigot worthy of the Klan (Another year, 24 Jan 18 - 03:59 PM). an "hysteric" or "habitually hateful" (Another year, 20 Jan 18 - 01:12 PM), an obsessed anti-Catholic( Another year, 20 Jan 18 - 11:28 AM), an anti-religious asshole bigot (Another year, 19 Jan 18 - 09:19 PM) and dozens of other examples??? I have never been one to delete messages unless I have a darn good reason, and that is almost always only cases of impersonation or direct personal attack. Hmmm- impersonation & personal attack. Funny, you don't seem to apply this standard to Bobad & BeardedBruce. I suppose at some point you intend to actually speak to the points I've raised rather than hurl insults and make lame "jokes"? Or perhaps not. Greg F.- Charter Member, Hateful Anti-Catholic Combat Bigots Of America Out For Blood, Inc. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Joe Offer Date: 25 Jan 18 - 02:35 PM Bobad, since biblical times, Palestine has been multi-ethnic. No one ethnic group can lay complete claim to it. Therefore, they have to learn to live together. Greg_F, I generally do my best to ignore what you have to say, since so much of it is false and unfounded. And yes, Greg, as I said before, I REALLY read what UNHCR and AFSC and Amnesty International say about what happens in Palestine, and I believe those reports and do not discount them. However, there is another side to the story of Palestine, facts that do not get as much publicity. The Palestinians are not just wallowing in self-pity, waiting for you to ride in on your white horse to rescue them (if you ever get to Palestine). They are building a nation and show great signs of advancement. I saw Jericho in 1999, and I saw it in 2017. The improvement is dramatic. The same thing applies to both East and West Jerusalem - they have improved greatly since I last saw them in 1999. Why is it that you and Jim Carroll are so offended when I say that the Palestinians are doing good things? I certainly acknowledge that there is a vast need for improvement in Palestine and in most of the Arab world, but there is also much good in those places. And Palestinians in particular have a right to be proud of their country. I suppose it's the same with how offended you are when I say anything good about the Catholic Church, although I certainly acknowledge the bad. You, Greg, and Jim Carroll have some sort of mental limitation that allows you to think only in absolutes. You have a very black-and-white, moralizing point of view. But that's not real life. Real life includes both the good and the bad. And another mistake you make, is to think that politics is the be-all and end-all of everything. In most of daily life for most people, politics is far in the background. It's not politics that made Israel a beautiful place - it's the individual work of individual people, both Arabs and Jews. Politics is indeed important, but it has a limited effect on the daily lives of most people. You put all your emphasis on what leaders do, and that's a mistake. Real life does not happen in the midst of the elite. It happens in families and neighborhoods and workplaces. For the most part, the elite are irrelevant to the rest of us. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: bobad Date: 25 Jan 18 - 02:48 PM Bobad, since biblical times, Palestine has been multi-ethnic. No one ethnic group can lay complete claim to it. Therefore, they have to learn to live together And they are doing that wonderfully in Israel. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: bobad Date: 25 Jan 18 - 02:55 PM Oh and Joe, it's not about any one ethnic group having a claim to it, it's about the Jewish peoples' right to a state on their ancestral homeland. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Greg F. Date: 25 Jan 18 - 03:20 PM Well, Joe - Greg_F, I generally do my best to ignore what you have to say, since so much of it is false and unfounded. Except for the fact that you DON"T ignore it and are almost universally unwilling or unable to substantiate how it is "false and unfounded" and instead prefer to label those who disagree with you bigots & etc. The Palestinians are not just wallowing in self-pity, waiting for you to ride in on your white horse to rescue them Ya think Joe? Where did I ever maintain that they were? You're making this crap up as you go along. Or do you mean to say that the Palestinians are waiting for the AFSC et. al. to ride in on their white horses to rescue them as well?? Why is it that you and Jim Carroll are so offended when I say that the Palestinians are doing good things? Made up shit (to stel a phrase from The Professor), Joe. How the hell can you maintain that I am in any way offended that the Palestinians - despite the Isreaeli occuping forces and Israeli government intervention - are "doing good things"? What, exactly do you base this assertion on? You're just flailing about wildly - or being disingenuous. how offended you are when I say anything good about the Catholic Church Again, you're being idiotic with this baseless assertion. And have no facts to back it up. Politics is indeed important, but it has a limited effect on the daily lives of most people. Unless said politics are those of the right-wing Israeli Likud government- which has a very real and direct negative impact on the daily lives of the Palestinian people- as the UNHCR and AFSC and Amnesty International and a host of others document. Or unless said politics are those of Trump (a.k.a. President Shithole) screwing over the lives of the majority of people in the U.S. Real life does not happen in the midst of the elite..... the elite are irrelevant to the rest of us. Absolutely right, Joe - what Trump, or the Koch Brothers, or Theresa May, & the rest of 'em do has NO EFFECT WHATSOEVER on the rest of us. Joe, you need to take a deep breath and stop behaving like an ass. I had thought you were better than this - now I 'm not so sure. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 25 Jan 18 - 03:31 PM "You, Greg, and Jim Carroll have some sort of mental limitation that allows you to think only in absolutes" For crying out loud Joe do you really have to dtrag this down to this level Why will you not respond to what has been put up - another place where angels fear to tread, no doubt Hypocrisy rules OK in your book I will continue to put up these glimpses into real life for millions of people - not for your benefit - your refusal to respond makes my point for me far more than anything I could possibly write Another idol with clay feet, sadly Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Joe Offer Date: 25 Jan 18 - 03:34 PM Sorry, Greg. You haven't said anything worth responding to. I don't want to be drawn down to your level of petty combat. I started this thread to discuss Israel and Palestine. Say something rational and factual and specific, and I'll respond to it. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Greg F. Date: 25 Jan 18 - 03:36 PM Sorry, Greg. You haven't said anything worth responding to. Pathetic, Joe, really pathetic. You didn't seem to have any trouble responding to spew unsubstantiated accusations, errors of fact, and insults. Pathetic. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 25 Jan 18 - 03:37 PM WAR CRIMES TRIBUNAL Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Joe Offer Date: 25 Jan 18 - 03:46 PM So, Jim and Greg, the specific points you wish to make are.....???? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Greg F. Date: 25 Jan 18 - 04:08 PM So...he specific points you wish to make are? See at least three or four of my posts above, Joe. Any number of unanswered questions there. Which I fully suspect will REMAIN inanswered. However, thanks for at least one post without unfounded accusations, errors of fact, and gratuitous insults. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Joe Offer Date: 25 Jan 18 - 05:45 PM So, I went back more than three or four of Greg's posts, and I couldn't find anything specific to respond to, other than some he said/he said squabbling that I don't want to be sucked into again. It's really hard to find anything factual in Greg's posts - and when I challenge him to make a specific point, he just says to look above to his previous unspecific posts. One would think that if he had said something specific that I could respond to, he could copy-paste it when I asked for it. And I don't know what the hell Jim is talking about. No, I haven't been to Knesset meetings or visited Israeli prisons, but I've read a considerable amount about them and do not have a favorable impression. It would be good to have a factual discussion of those things. I wonder if Jim would like to tell us of his personal experiences. I've read a lot of unfavorable things about the Palestinian government, and I was pleasantly surprised to see how much good they have accomplished. I couldn't take pictures of the wall or of Israeli soldiers when I was there. Our Armenian guide said the Israelis have cameras everywhere, and they take action against people who photograph soldiers or military installations or the Wall. We had to go through a checkpoint at the Wall to get into Bethlehem from Jerusalem. The Wall was stark and ominous on the Israeli side, and covered with clever graffiti on the Bethlehem side. One made reference to Trump birthing a twin wall in the U.S. My main impression of Israeli soldiers, was that they were awfully young - most looked to be about 20 years old, and I don't recall seeing any soldiers who looked older than 25. During the demonstration at Damascus Gate, maybe 30 young Arab women were sitting on the amphitheatre seats together, chanting anti-Trump slogans and having a good time. I wish I could have sat there with them. You'll see in my photos that the soldiers were dragging two or three young men away. I didn't see what the young men had done, if anything. There was a bit of struggling, but I didn't notice anything particularly abusive. Seemed like the same thing I've seen at demonstrations in the U.S. - demonstrators resisting, and officers dragging them away. I did talk to one or two soldiers and they were polite and helpful. The Palestinian soldiers were much friendlier and more talkative and relaxed. Our drive from Jericho through the Jordan Valley was through Palestinian territory, so we had to go through a checkpoint when we turned off toward Nazareth. Our guide told us to say we had been in Jerusalem and had not stayed in Bethlehem. Otherwise, the soldiers would inspect all our baggage and we'd be delayed for an hour. So, two young soldiers got on the bus at the checkpoint. They checked the passport of one person at the front of the bus, and then went all the way to the back of the bus to wake up an Irish friend of mine who was the only one sleeping. Seemed to me to be petty harassment, just showing off their authority. But after that, they let us go on. It was dark, so I could not see if there was a wall connected to the checkpoint buildings there. Aljazeera (click) has an interesting page on the wall. Wikipedia has some good pictures, like the ones I was too chicken to take.... -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: bobad Date: 25 Jan 18 - 06:42 PM The Palestinian soldiers were much friendlier and more talkative and relaxed. Do you think that might be because they don't have to fear being stabbed by a Jew or being run over by a car driven by a Jew? One thing that is little appreciated by those who have a tendency to blame Israel for every misfortune suffered by Arabs in Judea and Samaria is that 98% of them live under Palestinian Arab rule. These territories are governed by Palestinian Arabs, with their own legislatures, courts, TV, radio, newspapers, police, hospitals, school system and municipal services. These Palestinian Arab governmental agencies are largely corrupt, brutal and hate-mongering, spending a substantial portion of donated monies ($1.12 billion over the past 4 years) to reward citizens for murdering Jews. But they are their own, not Israel's. In short, Israel no longer runs PA-controlled areas. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Greg F. Date: 25 Jan 18 - 06:45 PM Pathetic. Good night Joe. Get well soon. Greg F, HABA (Hateful Asshole Bigots of America.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Steve Shaw Date: 25 Jan 18 - 07:31 PM In spite of the valiant efforts of one or two people, this thread, which rapidly lurched away from its original intent, has turned into a hate-fest. It ain't right. No balance. Anyway, I did enjoy those photos a lot and I've put the country on my bucket list. I'll need to stick a lot more two-pound coins in the piggy bank first as we've had to buy seven new windows this winter... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Joe Offer Date: 25 Jan 18 - 08:45 PM I decided to drink beer instead of swimming in the Dead Sea this time. The last time, I dove in. As I was in midair, our tour guide shouted, "Joe, don't!" But I did. It's too late to turn back when you're midair in a dive. When I hit the water, everything stung - my eyes, my ears, my lips, every little cut, and every place where I had shaved. As a matter of fact, I've grown a beard ever since and shave just my neck. Luckily, there were freshwater showers on the beach. I went back into the water again, but kept my head above water. I found I could raise my arms and feet out of the water, too. The water felt slimy to me, but I guess that was chemicals because I don't think any slime can live in the Dead Sea. That was 1999. In 2017, I had no desire to go back into the waters of the Dead Sea. But the beer was good. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Steve Shaw Date: 25 Jan 18 - 09:08 PM We have a very special sea pool in Bude, Joe. Google that! It has a beautiful view and there's great beer close by, but I can't promise you Dead Sea temperatures... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Joe Offer Date: 25 Jan 18 - 09:26 PM I'll take the beer, Steve. I'm geting too old for bracing dives into the sea.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: bobad Date: 25 Jan 18 - 09:43 PM How is the beer there, Joe? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Joe Offer Date: 25 Jan 18 - 10:01 PM The beer? Moderately good, but not extraordinary. Much easier to get cold beer in Israel and Palestine, than it is in Egypt. Middle Eastern beer is light, so it really needs to be cold. But in Luxor, we toured until it got hot, then had the hotel restaurant to ourselves for wonderful concoctions in clay pots. We had to talk them into making the beer a bit colder, but then it was a trip to heaven.... It felt a little decadent to go to the Winter Palace Hotel in Luxor for tea, but we had to do it. Most of the time, we enjoyed our very Egyptian hotel on the other side of the Nile, and took the ferry across for 20 cents a trip. I didn't find a decadent expat hotel in Jerusalem. I have to go back and look a little harder. I think the American Colony Hotel in East Jerusalem might do the trick. The King David Hotel is a little beyond my imagination (and pocketbook, even if just for tea). I got kicked out of the Ritz in Paris in disgrace and not really knowing why, so I'm a little nervous about going into places that are beyond my class. And hey, I found a great place for beer and pizza in the Jewish Quarter of the Old City in Jerusalem. That's more my style. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 26 Jan 18 - 04:07 AM "So, Jim and Greg, the specific points you wish to make are.....????" You've had them over and over again Joe and you have responded to none of them The Israeli regime is ETHNICALLY CLEANSING the Palestinian people out of territory they have occupied for thousands of years using methods that are regarded all over the planet as war crimes You are defending that behaviour on the basis on one visit and are choosing to ignore documented evidence In doing to, you are siding with two of the most vicious hate-filled trolls on this forum. Enjoy your dinner party - take a long spoon If we are bigots, so are all the decent people of this planet Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Joe Offer Date: 26 Jan 18 - 04:38 AM I don't defend the conduct of the Israelis, Jim; and you will not find one word of defense from me in this entire thread. All I said, is that Israel is a beautiful place. I have tried my best to honestly report my experiences in Israel and Palestine, and I have tried to present what I saw without analysis. But despite what the Israelis are trying to do, the Palestinians are making great progress in their efforts to build themselves a nation. I have lavished praise on what I saw of the people and government of Palestine. I did not comment much about the Israeli government because I did not really have a chance to observe it this time. My contact was almost exclusively with Arabs, and I was very favorably impressed. Can you get that through your thick skull? -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 26 Jan 18 - 05:16 AM "All I said, is that Israel is a beautiful place." The discussion, which you started, is not about the beauty of Israel, and you well know with your insulting behavior towards those who criticise the Israeli regime Your anodyne presentation of your visit and your refusal to respond to what is actually happening to the Palestinian people indicates which side you have taken As the joke said, your eye test may say that you are unfir for service but your prick is pointing strait to West Point Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Joe Offer Date: 26 Jan 18 - 05:30 AM OK, Jim, I was talking about PALESTINE. Do you know about Palestine? It's a nation where Arab peoples have lived for centuries. Israel conquered it in 1967, but the PALESTINIAN people have held firm and are finally beginning to show signs of success. Although I visited Israel and found it to be beautiful, I did not have any chance this time to interact with Jewish Israelis. The people I had contact with were ARAB people, and I learned a lot from them. ARAB Palestinians, and ARAB Israelis. Do you know about them? They are very admirable people. In other words, Jim, get your head out of your ass. I don't see where there's anything I've said in this thread that you can disagree with. I agree with everything you say, except for your condemnation of me for thinking more-or-less the same way you're thinking. Do you condemn me for supporting the nation of Palestine? -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Joe Offer Date: 26 Jan 18 - 05:49 AM This is very important, so despite the efforts of mindless ideologues to silence me, let me say it. The United Nations supports a two-state solution to the situation in Israel, but the conservatives in Israel and their U.S. supporters have done their best to thwart that - and the rest of the world has sat back and protested, and nothing has been resolved. But the Palestinian people aren't waiting. They are going ahead and building a second state, whether the Israelis like it or not, and they have succeeded in building a very credible nation for themselves. They haven't resolved all the problems yet, but it sure looks like they are doing things right. I see a lot of hope for the Nation of Palestine. Palestine has become a force to be reckoned with. This is the main thing that I have been trying to explain, and I think that it is not widely known how much progress Palestine has been making. To my mind, it is truly remarkable. Now, why is it that Jim Carroll objects to my saying this? I thought that this is exactly the goal that he is seeking. Somebody, please explain this to me. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Steve Shaw Date: 26 Jan 18 - 06:17 AM Well I for one enjoyed that "anodyne" first post and I read into it that Joe was definitely not intending to start yet another tedious Israel hate-fest. I'm not joining in with that. Why can't you give an account of your holiday along with hundreds of photos without getting a bollocking for it, just because it was Israel you went to? I'm getting sorely pissed off by the fact that you can't mention Israel round here without it automatically turning into yet another depressing flame war, and in the past I've been as guilty as anyone else (though not as extreme as some and I can prove that). There seems to be a false polarisation going on here. The real trolls who didn't hesitate to whip this up must be laughing their heads off. Anyway, Joe, to get back to anodynenessitudinousness, a plunge into our sea pool may well take your breath away but you'll feel one of two things for the rest of the day, either great or dead. It's three miles from my house along a glorious stretch of coast path. I'm a long-time member of the Friends Of Bude Sea Pool, though I've never been in (I only ever paddle). The buggers have put my membership fee up by five quid this year. Now THAT'S something worth getting aerated about. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 26 Jan 18 - 06:21 AM "mindless ideologues" No need to ask which side you are on Joe How can support of a people under seige be a "mindless ideology" After a decade of blockade and a series of brutal military incursions Gaza is on the point of collapse Yet you say that we should visit the homeland of the perpetrators because we "might like it" You have yet to acknowledge a single example of what is going on in the area - you should be ashamed of yourself, yet you continue to hurl abuse against those of us who see Israel for what it has become In your defence, yu do come from a church that has a history of siding with the powerful rather than the oppressed Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Joe Offer Date: 26 Jan 18 - 06:43 AM Palestine, Jim, Palestine. Do you know anything at all about Palestine? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 26 Jan 18 - 07:00 AM Yeah, it's full of Palestinians who are being ethnically cleansed The ones you have accused us of being "mindless ideologues" for defending Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Steve Shaw Date: 26 Jan 18 - 07:05 AM There are trolls who are undoubtedly reading this thread who don't believe that there's any such thing as Palestine or Palestinians and it seems to me that they will be taking great pleasure in observing how the thread is panning out. You blokes should be on the same side, shouldn't you? You can be on the same side yet have very different perspectives, you know! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 26 Jan 18 - 08:29 AM Yeah, it's full of Palestinians who are being ethnically cleansed Says who? No single liberal democratic country accuses Israel of ethnic cleansing. Such accusations come only from declared enemies of Israel who have a worse human rights record than Israel does. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 26 Jan 18 - 08:35 AM "The Seattle Mideast Awareness Campaign (Jim's "ethnic cleansing" link) is an offshoot of "Coalition to Stop $30 billion to Israel." This started in 2009 and tried to get support from J-Street. On April 8, 2009, they set up 10 billboards around Albuquerque, New Mexico in a 2 month contract. They were quite open in their intentions to slam Israel. The billboards mentioning "killing children" were removed after 3 weeks of the 8 week contract after many complaints. Then again in December 2009 more appeared in Albuquerque but the message was modified. A video was made" http://jewishfactsfromportland.blogspot.co.uk/2010/12/who-is-seattle-mideast-awareness.html |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Steve Shaw Date: 26 Jan 18 - 08:37 AM Yet another depressing turn in this thread. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 26 Jan 18 - 08:45 AM Sorry Steve, but the claim for "ethnic cleansing" needed to be challenged. Are you happy that Jim kept making it? Why did you not say something? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Steve Shaw Date: 26 Jan 18 - 08:57 AM You are the first to complain when threads go off-topic. You are deliberately fomenting further trouble here. Tell us instead, and exclusively instead, what you think of Joe's photographs and holiday narrative. We know your agenda and I for one am sick to death of these threads turning in the same old negative direction. Go and find something useful to do with your time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: bobad Date: 26 Jan 18 - 09:07 AM Do you know about Palestine? It's a nation where Arab peoples have lived for centuries. Israel conquered it in 1967 Some corrections of factual errors: By Palestine I presume you are referring to the area which historically has been known as Judea and Samaria where Jews have also lived for millenia, as a matter of fact Judea, previously the kingdom of Judah, is the root of the word Judaism. Judea and Samaria are part of the lands granted to the Jewish people by the League of Nations for their national home in the Treaty of Sevres 1920. In 1948 Israel declared independence and was immediately attacked by six Arab armies one of which was Jordan who illegally occupied Judea and Samaria. The occupation ended after the Six Day War in 1967 and Judea and Samaria were liberated and returned to Israel by formal treaty in which Jordan renounced all claim to the area and acknowledged the west bank of the Jordan river as Israel's western border. There is no country named Palestine today, hopefully one day there will be and it's people will live and prosper in peace with their neighbours. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 26 Jan 18 - 09:35 AM "No single liberal democratic country accuses Israel of ethnic cleansing." You mean liberal democratic countried like Britain who have bunged 1 billion£ of the British Taxpayers money to a party with terrorist connections, ot the US who is now headed by a ravinbg antisemitic, racist lunatic To expect self-serving politicians to do the decent thing is a defence beyond belife Virtually every Human Rights organisation and groups made up of Jews and non-Jews have claimed suggested that the Israeli regime is involved in ethnic cleansing To take the word of the politicians above those of these groups is classical fascism - the State over the people Address the facts Keith rather than hiding behind the actions of politicians Ethnic cleansing has been an issue in Israel since it was first discussed after the SIX DAY WAR Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 26 Jan 18 - 09:43 AM ETHNIC CLEANSERS DEFENDING ETHNIC CLEANSING Israel has been up to its arse in the terrorising of ethnic groups since it tried to sell APARTHEID SOUTH AFRICA Nuclear Weapons Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: bobad Date: 26 Jan 18 - 09:58 AM Sorry, the west bank of the Jordan river as Israel's western border should, of course, read the west bank of the Jordan river as Israel's eastern border. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 26 Jan 18 - 10:02 AM SEAMAC Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Greg F. Date: 26 Jan 18 - 10:37 AM Well I for one enjoyed that "anodyne" first post..... Almost, Steve, but not quite so "anodyne" perhaps? If you'll recall it included this question posed by Joe: But why would they tunnel through an area with four millennia of achaeological treasures to build a railroad stations? And fer crissake, why name it Trump Station? Joe didn't like the answers he received to that, and thence came the "bigots", other insults & personal attacks he seems to enjoy tossing around. Cheers - Greg F, HABA |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Joe Offer Date: 26 Jan 18 - 11:16 AM Well, neither Greg nor Jim is making any sense, so I won't argue with them any more. Greg can go on and on without actually posting any content or logic. I don't know what that's about. I think he just likes to fight. As for Jim, I just don't know. But I'm not going to bother arguing with either of them any more. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: robomatic Date: 26 Jan 18 - 11:22 AM I think one thing is clear that the subject stirs vitriol. The emotional attacks that arise from simple observations is an observation in itself. I think it has been valuable to leave this thread open but I'd like it if someone who responded to an observation with a personal attack would re-think this approach. It reminds me of my reactions to the following: "It's nothing personal" "Calm down" "Don't get excited" "You're not going to like this" "What you've got to understand is..." "You're the first person to call with this problem" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Greg F. Date: 26 Jan 18 - 11:36 AM Greg can go on and on without actually posting any content or logic. Pathetic. Another personal attack with no substance whatsoever. But I'm not going to bother arguing with either of them any more. Thanks Joe - If you don't care to deal with points raised that's fine- but don't act the injured party- you likely HAVE no valid argument to present. By the way, are you also not going to bother calling me names & hurling insults? Just curious..... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 26 Jan 18 - 12:13 PM So Jim, does your Ireland or any other EU state accuse Israel of ethnic cleansing? No. Neither does any Scandinavian country, or Canada, or Australia or any liberal democracy, because it is just anti-Israel propaganda propagated by its enemies. Once again your views on Israel are shown to be extreme. Steve, if it is OK for Jim to make those claims it must be OK for me to challenge them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Steve Shaw Date: 26 Jan 18 - 12:27 PM Do what the hell you like, Keith. But you know what will happen. Where was it now that I once read a definition of insanity, which went something like "Insanity is when you repeatedly do the same thing knowing that it doesn't work, but you keep doing it anyway..." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 26 Jan 18 - 12:52 PM "So Jim, does your Ireland or any other EU state accuse Israel of ethnic cleansing?" Many thousands of people in Ireland most certainly do BDS has a strong support here Last year Dublin was visited by a delegation of Israeli soldiers who spoke at public meetings on the part they had been forced to play in driving Palestinians from their home - ethnic cleansing Only a fascist would rather take the word of politicians over what they were saying Scandinavia has a strong BDS movement a s does Canada, Australia and virtually every Liberal demmocracy As I say - if you'd rather take the word of politicians over that of the people, it is you who is the extremist Instead of hiding behind spineless, self-serving and extremist politicians, how about addressing the facts of what is happening - you have had enough ogf them Stop lying on behalf aof an Antisemitic regime who is now consorting with antisemitism up to the point of naming an undergeround station in their mahjor city after an open antisemite SDo you wish to claim that Trump isn't Antisemitic Do you deny that the Israeli regime have connived with antisemites in Hungary Do you believe the Shin Bet security directors who claimed that Israel was now adopting similar tactics to the Nazis has suddenly become antisemitic Are you really claiming that the UN, Human Rights Watch and Amnesty are all antisemitic liars No answer is as good as any Within my lifetime the 'Free, democratic world stood by and watched the rise of Hitler and did nothing There's SFA new about politicians staying silent and allowing monsters to wipe out politicians Perhaps you'd like to call TIMES of ISRAEL liars or peddlers of 'Fake News' Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 26 Jan 18 - 12:54 PM "Well, neither Greg nor Jim is making any sense, " Going without attempting to respond to one single piece of evidence Joe And WE are not making sense Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Joe Offer Date: 26 Jan 18 - 01:47 PM I know a few Israeli Jews. All are classical or folk musicians that I met in the United States. I have not heard one good word from any of them about Benjamin Netanyahu. I'm guessing that most of them are supporters of the Labor Party. They seem to think of Netanyahu, like most of us think of Trump. Wikipedia lists 17 different political parties in the Knesset, none with a majority. Whichever party wants to form a government, must form a coalition with somebody. But with such a wide spead of parties, it's hard to make definite statements about the politics of the Knesset. Israel is a wonderful place, it really is. I think it would be ideal for Israel and the occupied territories to be blended into one state, but that would be disastrous for the Jews because it would create a vast Arab electoral majority that would not allow the Jews to survive. That being the case, I think a two-state solution is the only viable option. But Israel feels threatened by that and rightly so, so it is blocking that option. But as I said above, it seems that the wall is actually serving to strengthen Palestine while giving Israel the security it needs, so now maybe Israel will be willing to agree to a second state. But there is so much animosity and anger blocking any attempt at a solution, so I don't know if a permanent solution is possible. Maybe the current stasis is the best we can hope for, until the situation evolves. Somehow, in the current stasis, the Israelis and Palestinians are able to make things work - usually. But it's a delicate balance, and any number of things can upset that balance and cause disaster. Trump's decision to move the U.S. embassy to Jerusalem is one such action that could lead to disaster. There are two possible perspectives on the proposal to build a train station under the Old City of Jerusalem. It could be an absolute disaster, destroying any semblance of stasis that the Israelis and Palestinians have been able to achieve. I'm afraid that all hell would break loose on the day they started construction, so I think I have to oppose the building of such a station. At one time, I would have opposed underground construction like this in any archaeologically sensitive area - and especially this one. But then I saw the Acropolis subway station in Athens. The construction of the subway allowed for outstanding archaeological work to take place, and the artifacts that were found were placed in a new museum built right next to the subway. The stations itself is delightful, decorated with features reminiscent of the historical site above. I went into the station at 6 one morning, and classical music was playing on the platform - on high-quality speakers. This underground station could be an extraordinary opportunity for archaeologists. Maybe the political climate would be good for such a station in 50 or 100 years, but right now, I think it would be disastrous. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 26 Jan 18 - 02:23 PM "But Israel feels threatened by that and rightly so" Israel has ben the aggressor since the state was formed - British servicemen sailed away to the sound of hand grenades being thrown into occupied homes to cllear whole towns for the new settlers You are justifying the unjustifiable without even having the courage to either admit or deny what is actually happening - shame on you The Nazis claimed everything they did was in defence of their country and the German people May your god forgive you Joe PERHAPS YOU RECOGNISE YOUR CHURCH HERE Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Steve Shaw Date: 26 Jan 18 - 03:10 PM What would be the Palestinian state has become so fragmented by settlement building that it's hard to envisage a two-state setup working. On top of that, it's hard to see how two countries that would quite likely be hostile to each other could sit peaceably side by side. Israel isn't very good at that and the Palestinians have plenty of allies who love fighting proxy wars, and Israel has the US giving totally unconditional support. Not a recipe for success, even if both sides were initially satisfied with the carve-up, another obstacle. Those settlements... One great big democracy is the only answer, but that is impossible for Israel to stomach for the demographic reason Joe describes and due to the fact that Israel will never be persuaded to drop its "Jewish state" claim. In the long run I think that American aid to Israel must be made conditional on its dropping its bellicose attitude and settlement building and that the west should invest heavily in the development of the Palestinian territories. Prosperous and thriving countries seldom see the need to be at war with each other. Give both sides prosperity but give them both something to lose. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Greg F. Date: 26 Jan 18 - 05:03 PM I know a few Israeli Jews. But don't get us wrong! Some of our best Negroes are our friends. vide Phil Ochs. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: bobad Date: 26 Jan 18 - 05:22 PM But Israel feels threatened by that and rightly so Israel, and Britain before them, have been trying to give the Arab people in Judea and Samaria a state of their own since 1937. Here is a summary of those attempts: In 1937, the Palestinians were offered a state (Peel Commision), they said NO. In 1947, The Palestinians were offered a state (UN Partition), they said NO. In 1967, The Palestinians were offered a state (Khartoum), they said NO. In 2000, the Palestinians were offered a state (Camp David), they said NO. In 2001, the Palestinians were offered a state (TABA), they said NO. In 2008, the Palestinians were offered a state (Olmert offer), they said NO. In 2015, the Palestinians were offered a state (French sponsored UN offer), they said NO. Each time it was offered and they refused, they resorted to violence against Israel. What do you think the Palestinians really want? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Steve Shaw Date: 26 Jan 18 - 05:44 PM "What do you think the Palestinians really want?" Who exactly are you talking about? The Palestinian leadership? Or everybody in Palestine? You don't make it clear, do you? I don't criticise "Israel." I do criticise the Israeli regime. If I did criticise Israel, or the Israeli people, or "the Jews," you'd be down my throat like a shot. So who do you mean by "the Palestinians?" Sounds like exactly the loose talk that you would instantly castigate your "adversaries" for. Well I'll tell you what I think "the Palestinians" want. They want what you want. They want what I want. They want what the Israeli people want. They want a bit of prosperity, they want nice places to live, they want security and they want peace. "The Palestinians" are human beings just like you, me and the Jews in Israel and everywhere else. If there's one thing that Joe's narrative has brought into focus, it's that "the Palestinians" are proud people who value their culture and heritage. Try to see it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Joe Offer Date: 26 Jan 18 - 07:25 PM The most distressing thing I saw on my trip to Israel and Palestine, were the Israeli Settlements (cliki for Wiki). They're scattered everywhere in Palestine, and they're of very substantial size. I thought they were just a few rustic outposts here and there, but that's not the case. I have read that the worst instrument of terrorism that the Israelis use, is the bulldozer. At least some of the settlements were built on the sites of Palestinian homes, which were bulldozed. National Public Radio has an excellent article (29 Dec 2016) on this:
When Israel captured the West Bank in the 1967 Six-Day War, no Israeli citizens had lived in the territory for nearly two decades, since an earlier war. But in 1968, a small group of religious Jews rented rooms at the Park Hotel in Hebron for Passover, saying they wanted to be near the Tomb of the Patriarchs, one of the holiest sites in Judaism (as well as Islam and Christianity). The Israeli government reluctantly allowed them to stay "temporarily." From that beginning, hundreds of thousands of Israeli Jews now reside in the West Bank, citing religion, history and Israel's security among their reasons for being there. But the Palestinians, along with the rest of the world, see their presence as one of the key obstacles to a peace agreement and the creation of a Palestinian state. The issue returned to the headlines when the United Nations Security Council recently voted 14 to 0 to condemn Israeli settlements. The United States, which often vetoes resolutions critical of Israel, abstained and allowed the resolution to pass. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu responded angrily, unleashing a stream of accusations against the Obama administration. U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry defended the U.S. position Wednesday in a lengthy speech that repeatedly admonished Israel over settlements. Here are seven key things to know about the settlements: 1. Settlements are growing rapidly The term "settlements" may conjure up images of small encampments or temporary housing, and many have started that way. But they now include large subdivisions, even sizable cities, with manicured lawns and streets full of middle-class villas often set on arid hilltops. Israel is constantly building new homes and offers financial incentives for Israelis to live in the West Bank. When the Israelis and Palestinians first began peace talks after a 1993 interim agreement, the West Bank settlers numbered a little over 100,000. Today they total around 400,000 and live in about 130 separate settlements (this doesn't include East Jerusalem, which we'll address in a moment). They have grown under every Israeli government over the past half-century despite consistent international opposition. Hard-line leaders like Netanyahu have actively supported them. Moderates and liberals have also allowed settlements to expand, though usually at a slower rate. The settler movement is a powerful political force, and any prime minister who takes it on risks the collapse of his government. You can click here to see data on the settlements and a detailed map from Peace Now, an Israeli group that is opposed to settlements and closely monitors them. 2. Settlements complicate efforts for a two-state solution Critics of settlements say they've intentionally been established in every corner of the West Bank, giving the Israeli military a reason to be present throughout the territory and making it impossible to create a viable Palestinian state. The settlement locations and the roads that connect them make Palestinian movement difficult. The settlements are just one of many obstacles to a peace deal. Drawing boundaries, the status of Jerusalem, the fate of Palestinian refugees, and myriad security questions — including terrorism — are equally challenging, if not more so. A Palestinian man walks near a construction site for new Israeli housing in the East Jerusalem neighborhood of Har Homa in September. The Palestinians claim East Jerusalem as a capital of a future state and object to Israeli building in the eastern part of the city and throughout the West Bank. Israel claims all of Jerusalem as its capital. And as the settlements grow, it will be increasingly difficult to remove a large number of them, a tactic known as "creating facts on the ground." 3. The distinction between East Jerusalem and the West Bank Shortly after the 1967 war, Israel annexed East Jerusalem, which is part of the West Bank and had a population that was then entirely Palestinian. Israel declared the entire city to be Israel's "eternal and indivisible" capital. No other country recognizes Israel's annexation of East Jerusalem, with the United States and others saying the city's status must be determined in negotiations. This is why the U.S. and other countries have never moved their embassies to Jerusalem. Most are in Tel Aviv. The Palestinians, meanwhile, claim the eastern part of the city as their future capital. Around 200,000 Israelis now live in East Jerusalem. Combined with the roughly 400,000 settlers in the West Bank, about 600,000 Israelis now live beyond the country's 1967 borders. That's nearly 10 percent of Israel's 6.3 million Jewish citizens. While the Israelis tend to speak of East Jerusalem and the West Bank as two separate entities, the Palestinians regard them as a single body — the occupied West Bank. 4. What does Israel say about settlements? The settlers and their supporters cite the Jewish Bible, thousands of years of Jewish history, and Israel's need for "strategic depth" as reasons for living in the West Bank. They also note that Israel took the territory from Jordan, which has since relinquished its claim to the West Bank. Therefore, the settlers argue, there is no legal sovereign in the territory. However, no country, not even Israel, considers West Bank settlements to be sovereign Israeli territory. As we noted, Israel annexed East Jerusalem and administers it as part of Israel. But Israel has never annexed any other part of the West Bank. The settlers want to be formally incorporated into Israel, but that would ignite a major controversy. For now, Israel regards the West Bank as "disputed" territory that has been under the Israeli military since the 1967 war. 5. How about the Palestinians? From some Palestinian cities, there are clear views of Israeli settlements — and new construction — on nearby hillsides. And in most settlement neighborhoods, there are wide areas of empty hillside closed to Palestinians, which Israel says are necessary buffers for security. Palestinians see them as visual proof that their sought-after independent state is being taken from them. Palestinian leaders have opposed peace talks in recent years while, as they see it, Israel is building on land that is part of those talks. 6. Has Israel ever dismantled settlements? Yes, on a few occasions, most notably in 2005, when it removed all 8,000 settlers from the Gaza Strip. Israel decided these small, isolated settlements were too difficult to defend in a territory where the Jewish residents accounted for less than 1 percent of the population. The evacuation of the settlements was deeply divisive within Israel, and Israel's security forces had to drag some settlers from their homes kicking and screaming. The episode demonstrated that Israel could remove settlers, but it also showed how much friction it creates inside Israel. 7. What are the proposed solutions? Kerry on Wednesday outlined the general approach: land swaps. Under this scenario, the largest Jewish settlements, which are near the boundary with Israel, would formally become Israeli territory. In exchange, Israel would turn over an equal amount of its current land that would become part of a Palestinian state. In addition, settlements deep in the West Bank, far from Israel, would be disbanded. It would be a difficult political move for an Israeli prime minister, but it would also be difficult for a Palestinian leader to accept a peace deal without removing settlements. Greg Myre is the international editor of NPR.org. Follow him @gregmyre1 Larry Kaplow is NPR's Middle East editor. Follow him @larrykaplow |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Joe Offer Date: 26 Jan 18 - 07:28 PM Note this most important part from the NPR story: When the Israelis and Palestinians first began peace talks after a 1993 interim agreement, the West Bank settlers numbered a little over 100,000. Today they total around 400,000 and live in about 130 separate settlements (this doesn't include East Jerusalem, which we'll address in a moment). 400,000 "settlers." Sounds like an invasion to me. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: bobad Date: 26 Jan 18 - 07:43 PM When Israel captured the West Bank in the 1967 Six-Day War, no Israeli citizens had lived in the territory for nearly two decades Duh Joe, did you forget that the Jews who had lived there for generations had been ethnically cleansed by the Jordanians who had ILLEGALLY occupied it. I find it hard to believe that anyone who would make such an idiotic comment is motivated by anything but malevolence. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Joe Offer Date: 26 Jan 18 - 07:56 PM Bobad, I realize that there were atrocities committed on both sides. I see no value on dwelling on long-ago history. If there ever is to be peace in Palestine and Israel, we must disregard what people did 40, 50, and 70 years ago and consider the present reality. I am both pro-Israeli and pro-Palestinian. I have met and talked at length with people from both sides, and I think I understand and accept the positions of each fairly well. I find that most people on both sides are willing to disregard what happened so long ago. All they want is peace and stable housing and employment and education, and the ability to move on from the present instead of being hampered by past grudges. What happened in 1967 is irrelevant. That was over fifty years ago, and the people who fought those battles are now dead or nearly so. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: bobad Date: 26 Jan 18 - 08:28 PM Well Joe, history (rightly or wrongly) informs the present and lying about it only serves to perpetuate hostility especially when the lies are used to incite one side against the other. Interestingly, as I was typing this this popped up on my Facebook wall written by Qanta A. Ahmed, Qanta Ahmed, M.D., is Associate Professor of Medicine, State University of New York, and Honorary Professor Glasgow Caledonian University, School of Public Health. She is currently a Ford Foundation Public Voices Fellow with the OpEd Project. as a believing Muslim observing Islam, I am compelled by the Quran to support Israel's sole claim to the Holy Land; the Quran says it is so. The 80,000-word document 1.6 billion Muslims accept as the revealed word of God, the Quran, is categorical about the destiny of Israel and the people who can claim its ownership. The Quran states: 'Moses said to his people: O my people! Remember the bounty of God upon you when He bestowed prophets upon you, and made you kings and gave you that which had not been given to anyone before you amongst the nations. O my people! Enter the Holy Land which God has written for you, and do not turn tail, otherwise you will be losers.' Nowhere does the Quran make mention of the Muslims' claim to the Holy Land. Instead, God reveals in the Quran that The Holy Land is designated for the followers of Moses. Because the Promised Land is theirs according to the Quran, only the followers of Moses may determine where their capital must lie. It is this Islamic truth that political Islamists vehemently deny. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Steve Shaw Date: 26 Jan 18 - 08:37 PM And the outcome of your divisive attitude is what, bobad? How does that in any way inform the situation that currently obtains? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: bobad Date: 26 Jan 18 - 08:44 PM Dr. Qanta A. Ahmed, MD, is a British American Muslim, author of In the Land of Invisible Women,member of the Council on Foreign Relations, and Next Generation Council Member of the University of Southern California’s Shoah Foundation Institute for Visual History and Education. @MissDiagnosis |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Joe Offer Date: 26 Jan 18 - 08:58 PM OK, so I hear the Quran says this. Pleace cite chapter and verse, so I can look it up myself. Whatever the case may be, the Palestinians have been there for a long, long time. Once the "long time" passes one generation, I'm not willing to deport anyone. If they were born and raised there, deporting them is immoral. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Steve Shaw Date: 26 Jan 18 - 09:22 PM Same here, Joe. At risk of losing friends, I can't tolerate any talk, no matter who from, of wiping Israel off the map. Israel isn't Bibi. Israel is eight million citizens, mostly people who were born there. A big bunch of real live human beings. Just like us! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: bobad Date: 26 Jan 18 - 09:24 PM Joe, Qanta A. Ahmed quotes relevant verses from the Qu'ran in my post of 26 Jan 18 - 08:28 PM, if you want to read them from the source I suggest you look it up for yourself. Where does this talk about deporting Palestinians comes from? The Israelis have done a commendable job of integrating people of all faiths into their country, so much so that the vast majority of Arab Israelis say that they would rather live in the state of Israel than any other country in the world. My sincere hope is that the people of Judea and Samaria will one day be able to say the same about their own country. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Joe Offer Date: 26 Jan 18 - 11:14 PM OK, so I looked it up. The primary Quran quotes used are 5:21 and 17:104. And while your Dr. Ahmed says I am compelled by the Quran to support Israel's sole claim to the Holy Land, I don't see anything in the cited texts that specify the possession to be exclusive. Yes, Muslim tradition recognizes the right of Israelis to live in the Holy Land. It does not go on to specify that the Jews are permitted to displace others. But I've never been one to support literal interpretation of sacred texts, particularly individual verses taken out of context. Common decency dictates that one can't drive another from home, simply because of religious texts. Both Jews and Muslims call the Levant their home and have valid historical claims - they need to learn to live there together. And as the Hebrew Scriptures indicate in Genesis 15:18-21, the Holy Land is meant to be multi-ethnic. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 27 Jan 18 - 03:48 AM Bobad has placed the argument where it has always been - 'A people chosen by the Sky Fairies' - a terrifying concept Israel uber alles The world has been here before Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 27 Jan 18 - 04:01 AM So Steve, why do you not complain about Jim making the same old accusations? Why do you only complain when they are challenged? Jim, BDS has a strong support here No it does not. None of you parties espouses it and neither do any in Scandinavia or any other liberal country. You and Steve have extreme anti-Israel views that are not widely held in any liberal democratic country. Guardian, "Jeremy Corbyn would be happy to buy goods from Israel and does not support a blanket boycott, divestment and sanctions (BDS) policy" https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/13/jeremy-corbyn-does-not-support-boycott-of-israel-bds-movement |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 27 Jan 18 - 04:33 AM "So Steve, why do you not complain about Jim making the same old accusations?" These are no longer accusations Keith - they are researched facts by eye-witnesses and presented to an indifferent world - by human rights groups, by on the spot medical teams and by journalists How dare you incite members of this forum one against the other by deliberately distorting what people are saying When have I, when has anybody on this forum ever suggested "wiping Israel off the map?" This despicable level of lying is a perfect example of what is happening in Israel today - political extremists like yourself slaughtering innocent victims and blaming them for their own deaths The same decent democratic states - your only argument for this shit - are being wqually silent on what is happening in Myanmar and Syria.... a deadly silence because the atrocities are being committed by "our monsters" It seems to be a trait of Christians like yourself on this forum to lie on behalf of State Terrorism Thank god I don't believe in him Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 27 Jan 18 - 05:17 AM None of you parties espouses it and neither do any in Scandinavia or any other liberal country." Only fascists judge countries by what the politicians say and ignore the opinions of the people, though we do have some decent politicians THere is a Palestinian flag flying over Dublin City Hall in support of the Gazans |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Steve Shaw Date: 27 Jan 18 - 05:27 AM Disagreeing with Keith means having extreme views, folks. Ah, why didn't I think of that before! I invite you to look through this thread with a fine-tooth comb and find any anti-Israel views expressed by me, Keith. I have always been on the side of ordinary Israeli people and must have said so a hundred times. I'm anti-Theresa May. Doesn't mean I'm anti-British. I'm anti-Trump. Doesn't mean I'm anti-America. I'm anti-Netanyahu. So? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 27 Jan 18 - 06:39 AM By the way Keith Perhaps it might be a good time for you to withdraw your accusation that I or anybody here has ever suggested wiping Israel off the map. Steve made it as a a general point, you chose to apply it to me Just clean up your mess and withdraw the accusation (I know an apology is out of the question with you) before we find ourselves up to our arses in your defending your "implanted rapists" theory - there's a good lad Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 27 Jan 18 - 08:45 AM BY THE WAY Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 27 Jan 18 - 08:46 AM Steve, Disagreeing with Keith means having extreme views, folks. No but you and Jim both support BDS which no political party in any liberal democracy does, because that is an extreme political view. Jim accuses Israel of ethnic cleansing which no political party in any liberal democracy does, because that too is an extreme political view. "Extremists are people who have either extreme views ..." DtG. Perhaps it might be a good time for you to withdraw your accusation that I or anybody here has ever suggested wiping Israel off the map. I have made no such accusation. Do you accuse Israel of ethnic cleansing? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: bobad Date: 27 Jan 18 - 09:17 AM And as the Hebrew Scriptures indicate in Genesis 15:18-21, the Holy Land is meant to be multi-ethnic. And so it is. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 27 Jan 18 - 09:59 AM "which no political party in any liberal democracy does, because that too is an extreme political view." Sigh..... Jewish people all over the planet are now accusing Israel of ethnic cleansing - hiding by the silence of politicians who are ignoring what is happening in Myanmar and Sysia is as sick as it gets The decent nations stood silently by when the U.S. poured burning petrol on Vietnamese peasants#This "argument" is no more than a stonewalling ploy in order to avod having to discuss what is actually happening Israeli papers have announced that a little under half of the Israeli peoiple are no in favour of ethnic cleansing - are they not part of one of your "liberal democracies" - youi have always claimed they are You are not going to withdraw your accusations so perhaps it is time to remind you of your claim that all muslim males are implanted to rape underage women If that is not an incitement to ethnically cleanse such people, nothing is Withdraw your foul accusation and let us maintain some degree of civility in this thread Keith Or perhaps, if you refuse to, perhaps Joe will have the sense to remove the offending accusation Steve "At risk of losing friends, I can't tolerate any talk, no matter who from, of wiping Israel off the map. " Keith "So Steve, why do you not complain about Jim making the same old accusations?" Steve made a general point which we all agree with - Keith uses it to smear Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 27 Jan 18 - 01:01 PM Jim, So Steve, why do you not complain about Jim making the same old accusations?" The accusation Steve did not complain about were yours about ethnic cleansing, nothing else. your claim that all muslim males are implanted to rape underage women Once again you resort to lies and abuse, always a sign that you have lost the argument. Your views on BDS and israel's supposed crimes are extreme way beyond those of any party in any liberal democracy on Earth. You are an anti_Israel extremist. That is OK, but you can not expect to be taken seriously by normal, informed and open minded folks. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: bobad Date: 27 Jan 18 - 01:55 PM A brief interview with Ramadan Dabash, head of Sur Baher, a Palestinian neighborhood in East Jerusalem. YouTube "We want to live in East Jerusalem under Israeli rule....The Palestinian Authority did not succeed in West Bank and it won't succeed in East Jerusalem...We don't believe in the PA...We identify more with Israel...Nobody wants to give up their Israeli ID...People are scared to condemn the violence due to implicit threats by "other" authorities...90% want to live under Israeli rule" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 27 Jan 18 - 01:59 PM "The accusation Steve did not complain about were yours about ethnic cleansing, nothing else." You are ar to fond of setting one member against the other Keith - doesn't matter - you provide an excellent example fo the typse of slimeballs who support mas killing and spread hate claims about implanted communities Just keep your shit off this forum "Once again you resort to lies and abuse, " Do you really ant me to dig up your claim once again - more than happy to oblige Your mindless rant about which politicians support your foul cause makes my point for me adequately I'm pissed off with you racists and bigots fouling up these discussions Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 27 Jan 18 - 02:19 PM your claim that all muslim males are implanted to rape underage women As you know because we have been over it hundreds of times over the last seven years, I made no such claim. How is any of that relevant to this discussion please? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 28 Jan 18 - 04:17 AM "How is any of that relevant to this discussion please?" It's relevant to stopping you stooping to your usual level of maligning contributors to this thread with lies and attempting to set one member against the other - seems to have done the trick as you have now denied what you actually said - so let's move on Israel is carrying on a policy of ethnic cleansing in order to drive out the Palestinians and move in yet more settlers - that is what the trouble is about and that is what you, Bobad, Bruce, and now Joe are defending are defending (I have no intention of responding to your forthcoming denials - our dialogue is over) At least Bruce and Bobad have had the courage to say whet they believe - that the Arabs have no claim to the territory they occupy as the scriptures say it belongs to the Jews - that sums up perfectly the argument the Israelis have been hiding behind to excuse their atrocities - it was stated over and over again by settlers interviewed by Simon Schama in his series 'History of The Jews a couple of years ago when Mike Grovenor Myer was a valued contributor to this forum. A recent survey in Israel has found that hald the Israeli population want the Palestinians ethnically cleansed out of the territory (The Jerusalem Post says so, so you can't dismiss it as 'Antisemitic propaganda' as you usually do) You have denied every act of inhumanity, every war crime, every atrocity that Israel has carried out Joe opened this thread to paint an anodyne picture of what is happening in Jerusalem and you have resorted to your old ploy that there cant be ethnic cleansing because the Governments who stayed silent about Vietnam, the atrocities of the oil wars and now the atrocities still being committed by Assad and Russia in Syria and the ethnic cleansing in Myanmar haven't said anything about it (not that they have denied that ethnic cleansing isn't taking place - just political silence) If theser countries didn't believe Israel to be guilty that would publicly announce that Israel as being maligned As it is, only the U.S. have leaped to Israel's defence with around 100 U.N. vetoes which have kept Israel from being tried for war crimes and crimes against humanity The facts of Israel's policy are obvious and some of the most vociferous opponents to it are Jews who, according to the Regime, have become "self-hating" liars and Jewish antisemites To criticise Israeli policy is to be Antisemitic - even the ISRAELI MINISTER OF JUSTICE has said so Making any Government immune to criticism in this way is fascism, pure and simple That is what has happened to Israel under an extremist right wing administration These administrations have destroyed the dream of a Jewish homeland and have turned it into a nightmare Discuss it honestly instead of making extremist excuses of your own (that is what your "silence of politicians" argument - political extremism Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 28 Jan 18 - 04:50 AM Steve has chosen not to support you by saying that he accuses Israel of ethnic cleansing. If all your links and jinks have failed to convince even him, then you have not convinced anybody. Your views are so extreme that they are beyond the fringe of normal, reasoned discourse. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Steve Shaw Date: 28 Jan 18 - 05:21 AM Well, Keith, I do post a lot to this board but I don't leap in at every juncture at your behest. Your remarks about my attitude to Jim's remarks are completely out of order. I will say or not say what I like and you do not get to jump to conclusions when I choose to say nothing. Mostly, when I say nothing it's either because I have a life to live beyond these shores or because I've probably said it a hundred times before. On ethnic cleansing, a term we shouldn't too easily resort to, I regard the treatment of the Bedouin in the Negev as an egregious example of it. As for settlement building, certainly there are areas that have been cleared for exclusive Jewish occupation. In the long term that is making a two-state solution unviable, and a single state is unpalatable to the Israeli regime for the demographic reason Joe has stated and the fact that a single state would no longer be able to be called a Jewish state. What that adds up to is that successive Israeli regimes haven't wanted a solution. They appear to want the Palestinians out. We'll have to see whether their actions in the long term move closer to achieving that. I would hesitate to call it ethnic cleansing apropos of the occupied territories or parts of them until we see how things pan out in the future. But it looks like it's moving in that direction unless political or moral pressure can be put on the regime to stop the settlement building and even hand territory back and to desist from their attritional treatment of Gaza. That isn't looking likely unless wise people in America make aid to Israel conditional on precisely that, and the pro-Israel lobby will make damn sure that that won't happen. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 28 Jan 18 - 06:29 AM "Steve has chosen not to support you by saying that he accuses Israel of ethnic cleansing." As he just pointed out, he said nothing of the sort, but beside the point anyway You scurry behind anything that resembles a way to avoid the points that have been put up It is despicable to use other members of this thread one against the other rather than answer direct points You have the evidence, counteract it with evidence of your own rather than trying to assemble an army of imaginary friends - that's what children do when they feel alone Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 28 Jan 18 - 10:52 AM So Steve also accuses Israel of ethnic cleansing. He also supports BDS. That means that both of you have more extreme views than Labour and Jeremy Corbyn. You are entitled to your extreme views, but that is what they are. Who shares them? Iran? Yes. Saudi?? Yes. Any party in any democratic country? No. They are just extreme views not to be taken seriously by informed people. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 28 Jan 18 - 11:16 AM 2So Steve also accuses Israel of ethnic cleansing." That seems to have blown up in your face, doesn't it Has Corbyn made a claim about ethnic cleansing - it seems to me he belives there is a different way of dealing with it Why don't you either answer the points incited of hiding behind people who don't support BDS or just go away here First Steve,then Corbyn - who you have accused of being leftie extremists at one time or the other "Who shares them?" How about every human rights group on teh planet and all the aid agencies that saw the results of Israeli brutality Who shares your view? - Donald friggin' Trump - that's who Are you really as thick as you appear to be? No more Keith - just piss off Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 28 Jan 18 - 12:24 PM Has Corbyn made a claim about ethnic cleansing Not in regard to Israel, no. Neither he, nor the Labour Party nor any party in any democracy on Earth has. You and Steve believe such shit but no democratic government or party does. Only ant-Israel extremists like you two. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 28 Jan 18 - 12:41 PM Israel's side of the Bedouin story. "Yet a comparison of the situation of the Bedouin in Israel to that in Arab countries will show that Israeli Bedouin enjoy conditions that their brethren lack, mainly in two areas: welfare and land ownership." "In January 2013, the Israeli government created a policy designed to solve a range of problems affecting Israel's Bedouin population. This January 2013 plan, named after then-minister Ze'ev Binyamin Begin, was created to enhance and expand technological and adult education, develop industrial centers, establish employment guidance centers, assist in bolstering Bedouin local governments, and improve transportation systems, centers of excellence for students and support for Bedouin women who want to work or even begin their own businesses. The first Bedouin high-tech company in Israel, Sadel Technologies, was cofounded by Ibrahim Sana, a Bedouion, and his two Arab-Israeli business partners. Sadeltech provides their clients with services including but not limited to: mobile app development, web application development and software quality assurance. Most of the employees at Sadeltech are Bedouins who have graduated from computer science programs at Israeli universities and have a tough time finding work; their first Jewish employee was hired in early 2016. " "The National Health Insurance Law (NHIL) which took effect on January 1, 1996 considerably improved health services for about 30% of the Bedouin population who had not belonged to a sick fund. According to the NHIL, every resident is entitled to a basket of health services provided by clinics, specialists and hospitals. Mother-and-child care centers provide health education, check-ups monitoring development and immunization. Today, hardly any Bedouin women give birth at home; going to hospital makes the mother eligible for a grant from the National Insurance Institute and provides unaccustomed pampering." http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the-bedouin-in-israel#negev |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: bobad Date: 28 Jan 18 - 01:50 PM With a birth rate amongst the highest in the world, the Israeli Bedouin population has grown tenfold since the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948. Today the Bedouin are almost three percent of the population of Israel, but in the stark Negev desert Bedouin make up one out of every four residents. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Greg F. Date: 28 Jan 18 - 04:09 PM Quite an accomplishment considering the numbers the Israeli government annihialated, innit, Boo. You should have posted this yesterday, considering the anniversary involved. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: robomatic Date: 28 Jan 18 - 04:21 PM I once attended a lecture by a Holocaust survivor in honor of Paul Celan. In the question-and-answer period at the end of the lecture this gentleman was asked -Are you still a religious Jew- and the answer was: -No, the Germans knew all the important Jewish dates and holidays and threw them in our faces.- Welcome to the fold Greg F. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Greg F. Date: 28 Jan 18 - 05:36 PM Which fold is the, Robo? Obviously not the fold that denies or apologizes for the Bedouin genocide at the hands of Israel. Sholom. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: bobad Date: 28 Jan 18 - 06:41 PM It doesn't take much to winkle them out does it Robo? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Steve Shaw Date: 28 Jan 18 - 06:44 PM Don't react, chaps. He's not worth it, honest. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: robomatic Date: 28 Jan 18 - 06:45 PM Nope. They can't help themselves. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Joe Offer Date: 28 Jan 18 - 07:02 PM What's BDS? I see it in lots of posts, but have no idea what it means. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: bobad Date: 28 Jan 18 - 07:10 PM Here ya go Joe: BDS: The Global Campaign to Delegitimize Israel |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Steve Shaw Date: 28 Jan 18 - 07:31 PM Ok, Joe. Basically, BDS is an international campaign to sanction Israel for its misdeeds against the Palestinians. Bobad's link is to an extremist pro-Israel organisation that regards any attack at all against Israel as antisemitic. Your best bet is to google it and find a neutral source of information. Cheers. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Greg F. Date: 28 Jan 18 - 07:45 PM Bobad: The Global Campaign to Legitimize Israeli Atrocies. Look that one up, Joe. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: bobad Date: 28 Jan 18 - 07:52 PM The three main goals of the BDS movement targeting Israel are: 1. Ending its occupation and colonization of all Arab lands and dismantling the Wall. 2. Recognizing the fundamental rights of the Arab-Palestinian citizens of Israel to full equality. 3. Respecting, protecting and promoting the rights of Palestinian refugees to return to their homes and properties as stipulated in UN Resolution 194. 1. All Arab lands is defined as; "from the river to the sea" 2. Irrelevant because it is codified in Israel's founding document and is in practice. 3. Everyone knows this would mean the end of Israel as a Jewish state and that is the goal of the movement. Many countries, state jurisdictions, cities and universities have banned BDS as a thinly disguised anti-Semitic movement and have made it illegal. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: bobad Date: 28 Jan 18 - 08:04 PM Even Norman Finkelstein a relentless critic of Israel and much to the chagrin of those who use him to legitimize their anti-Semitism, has charged that the BDS movement is a childish “cult” whose goal is to destroy Israel as the nation-state of the Jewish people. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: robomatic Date: 28 Jan 18 - 08:21 PM BDS always reminds me of BTK, as in the BTK Killer. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Joe Offer Date: 28 Jan 18 - 08:26 PM Hi, Steve - well, Bobad's link is from the Jewish Anti-Defamation League, a respected organization founded in the U.S. in 1913. For the record, BDS means 'boycott, divestment and sanctions' against Israel. BDS, however, seems to me to be a very peaceful and legitimate and effective response to Israel. The problem with all of this, is that there are two sides to this story, and both sides are right - and both sides are wrong. There are certainly legitimate reasons to accuse Israel of "ethnic cleansing," although the term has overtones of propaganda because it's a "judgement term" and does not provide specifics or proof. I see that the pro-Israeli factions here have tried to blame the Arabs (particularly Jordan) for "ethnic cleansing," but their accusations date back to 1967 (and Israel and Jordan are at peace now). But what outsiders consider "ethnic cleansing," Israelis consider to be a legitimate struggle for survival. After the horrors of the Holocaust and centuries of pogroms in Eastern Europe before that, the Jewish people finally have a home - and they feel their home is threatened by Palestinians who bomb Israel and fire rockets into Tel Aviv. But it's also true that Israel has used extreme and unjust measures to respond to the threats against its security - bulldozing homes, imprisoning young Palestinians for unreasonable terms, building settlements in Palestinian areas, planning to deport refugees, and any number of unreasonable strongarm tactics. I see a lot of posturing and propaganda from both sides up above, but I don't see any workable solutions. It's nice to find individual Arabs who support the Israeli side and individual Israelis who support the Arabs; but I'm afraid I think those individuals are simply traitors, like token blacks in the U.S. Republican Party. I tried to stay away from the posturing and propaganda when I started this thread, to simply report was I was able to observe - and the reality I reserved was generally positive, on both sides. And although the problems in Israel are very serious, they sure seem easier than what I know of other Arab nations and what I observed myself in Egypt. So, propaganda and accusations aside, what are the options available that would serve both sides well? -Joe- P.S. I looked up "Global Campaign to Legitimize Israeli Atrocies" and found nothing, even when I spelled "Atrocities" right. Must be another one of those made-up fraud things... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: bobad Date: 28 Jan 18 - 08:52 PM Joe, you say BDS is a very peaceful and legitimate and effective response to Israel. Does that mean you agree with it's stated goals as outlined in my post of 28 Jan 18 - 07:52 PM? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Steve Shaw Date: 28 Jan 18 - 09:32 PM You're being just a tad naive, Joe. Just because that disreputable organisation has been going for a hundred years, it doesn't mean that it's respectable. From that link: ... However, the predominant drive of the BDS campaign and its leadership is not criticism of policies, but the demonization and delegitimization of Israel. BDS campaigns promote a biased and simplistic approach to the complex Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and present this dispute over territorial and nationalist claims as the fault of only one party: Israel... ...Increasingly, BDS campaigns are used by anti-Israel activists to attract attention to their message, particularly on college campuses where BDS initiatives draw students, faculty, campus organizations and administrations into a highly politicized and publicized debate. Is BDS Anti-Semitic? Many of the founding goals of the BDS movement, including denying the Jewish people the universal right of self-determination, along with many of the strategies employed in BDS campaigns are anti-Semitic. Many individuals involved in BDS campaigns are driven by opposition to Israel's very existence as a Jewish state. Often time, BDS campaigns give rise to tensions in communities (particularly on college campuses) that can result in harassment or intimidation of Jews and Israel supporters, including overt anti-Semitic expression and acts. This dynamic can create an environment in which anti-Semitism can be express more freely. And, all too often, BDS advocates employ anti-Semitic rhetoric and narratives to isolate and demonize Israel. Spot any bias there, Joe? Any propaganda? Well I do. If you tell me that you can't see it, in the interests of balance, feel free to ask and I'll give you chapter and verse, though I know that you're more than clever enough to work it out for yourself. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Joe Offer Date: 28 Jan 18 - 11:52 PM Hi, Steve - I admit that I was a little taken aback by some of the stuff I saw on the Website of the Anti-Defamation League. I've always thought of ADL as representative of "mainstream" Judaism. The Jewish Defense League has been thought of as the extremist organization. Maybe it's unfair to judge an organization from just one page on its Website. The Home Page of ADL is more representative of how I view the organization: https://www.adl.org/. I think you would agree with most of the stuff you find there. Still, as the ADL Web page on BDS says, at least a portion of BDS seeks "the demonization and delegitimization of Israel." That's a legitimate viewpoint, I think. There are elements of BDS that certainly seem anti-Semitic. I tend to favor the Palestinians because they are clearly the underdogs in this disagreement, and my family has far more Arab and Palestinian connections than Jewish ones - but I have to try to understand the Jewish point of view, too. My sister has close connections with several families in Palestine, and she can tend to jump on me for being pro-Jewish when I see myself as just trying to be fair. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Steve Shaw Date: 29 Jan 18 - 09:24 AM Still, as the ADL Web page on BDS says, at least a portion of BDS seeks "the demonization and delegitimization of Israel." That's a legitimate viewpoint, I think." I completely disagree and that is exactly the kind of statement that feeds into attempts to make out any criticism AT ALL of Israel to be antisemitic. The BDS website front page states: Boycott, Divestment, Sanctions (BDS) is a Palestinian-led movement for freedom, justice and equality. BDS upholds the simple principle that Palestinians are entitled to the same rights as the rest of humanity. Israel is occupying and colonising Palestinian land, discriminating against Palestinian citizens of Israel and denying Palestinian refugees the right to return to their homes. Inspired by the South African anti-apartheid movement, the BDS call urges action to pressure Israel to comply with international law. BDS is now a vibrant global movement made up of unions, academic associations, churches and grassroots movements across the world. Eleven years since its launch, BDS is having a major impact and is effectively challenging international support for Israeli apartheid and settler-colonialism. The BDS movement has no interest in wiping Israel off the map or of criticising Jews because they are Jews. It is all about fighting the injustices meted out to Palestinians that I note you recognise. It calls for sanctions and boycotts to be applied in order to get the Israeli regime to stop doing the things that you tell me you find just as outrageous as I do. If you can find a single antisemitic statement on the BDS website or coming from anyone at all speaking on behalf of the movement, let's be having it. At least two people on this forum use easy accusations of antisemitism whenever we dare to criticise the actions of the regime. Don't fall into that same lazy habit. An accusation of antisemitism is a very serious matter and you should be prepared to defend making that accusation by way of presenting us with solid facts to back it up. If you've seen anything at all coming from BDS that appears to demonise or delegitimise Israel in general terms outside of the remit of the movement, telling us about it would be a start. That remit will clearly include criticism of the actions of the regime but will not include criticising Jews, their culture, their religion or their right to live in Israel or anywhere else. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 29 Jan 18 - 09:25 AM None of this addresses what is actually happening in Israel and what has always happened and it is to the shame of people who consistently defend Israel that they refuse to address facts and instead concentrate on the claimed "aims" of organisations like B.D.S. (this includes Joe, who so far has refused to respond to one single link that has been put up - not even to dismiss them as lies, as is the standard ploy) The loss of land, the number of refugees, the destruction of homes, hospitals, schools..... and the number of civilians slaughtered by a well armed, well trained army, speak far louder than any hypothetical policies ever can The plainest indication of who is the victim and who the perpetrator lies in the number of U.S. vetoes that have been necessary to keep Israel out of the International courts - without them, Israel would have been tried and found either guilty or not guilty of what they are accused of Instead of facing trial, Israel has demanded the dismantling of these Courts That says all that needs to be said about the possibly outcome of any trial that should take place Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 29 Jan 18 - 09:55 AM AN ISRAELI HISTORIAN'S OPINION Dr. Ilan Pappe is a senior lecturer in the college of political sciences at the University of Haifa. He is also the head of the Emile Touma Institute for Palestinian and Israeli Studies, Haifa. Dr. Pappe is considered one of the new Israeli historians. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 29 Jan 18 - 10:10 AM MORE OPINIONS from the same historian Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: robomatic Date: 29 Jan 18 - 01:44 PM Interesting tactical distinction: Israeli opinions are legitimately diverse due to a diverse society. They have diverse sources. Their antagonists, including the BDS, are subversive. You get diverse opinions from the same sources. BDS will opine that they mean no 'harm' but only what the same rights for their charges while also seeking the elimination of the Jewish state. Sort of like wanting their own opinions AND their own facts. Calling a Democratically elected government a 'regime' is a tactic along those very lines, smearing the distinctions between Israel and her neighbor states which are glaringly obvious to all those with unshackled minds. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 29 Jan 18 - 02:49 PM "Calling a Democratically elected government a 'regime' " Israel's behaviour earned it the title "regime" long before BDS I read somewhere that the Nazis were elected democratically BDS stands alongside the Anti Apartheid Movement and the opposition to what was happening in Vietnam as opponents to the behavior of "democratically elected governments" The fact that the man found responsible for the Sabra Shatila massacre (by the Israeli enquiry, among others) went on to become Prime Minister of Israel shows exactly how reliable elected governments are as a guide to democracy Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Steve Shaw Date: 29 Jan 18 - 03:14 PM What nonsense. There is no desire within the movement to eliminate the state of Israel and you know it. That is empty words intended to inflame. If I'm wrong, prove it. Show me any BDS publication or quote me one speech sanctioned by BDS that has called for it. I'll save you the trouble: there aren't any. BDS is an international movement. The people who support it get their information from many sources within their own countries and from online sources, among others, and they mainly live in countries which are democracies with free and open media. I support BDS and I get my information about what goes on in Israel from a multitude of sources, thank you very much, and my antennae are kept tuned for sites or publications that don't meet my requirements for free and factual non-tendentious reporting, whatever side they belong to. BDS is fully open about its aims and is in no way subversive, another lazy slur. You talk as if all the people who oppose the policies of the Israeli regime towards Palestinians are a bunch of half-wits who rely solely on electronic intifada. Well we don't. And yes, regime. If you act in discriminatory fashion against a section of your population and barricade almost two million people for over a decade in what amounts to an open-air prison, lock up people for months or years without charge or trial, evacuate families from their homes in order to build exclusive walled settlements for Jews only and build a wall that divides Palestinian farms and families, you are acting like any regime that was ever worthy of the accolade. Perhaps your problem is YOUR sources. They certainly don't appear to be giving you the information you need for you to come to even a remotely fair-minded judgement about what's going on. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Steve Shaw Date: 29 Jan 18 - 03:15 PM My post was clearly directed at robomatic. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Greg F. Date: 29 Jan 18 - 04:00 PM while also seeking the elimination of the Jewish state. Well, Robo's gone over to the side of the lunatics & advocates of "alternative facts"**. Or maybe he's a Trump supporter. Same difference. ** i.e., lies |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Joe Offer Date: 29 Jan 18 - 06:08 PM So, Steve says about the Anti-Defamation League: You're being just a tad naive, Joe. Just because that disreputable organisation has been going for a hundred years, it doesn't mean that it's respectable. I think you're going a bit far, Steve. There's no question that is ADL and represents the Israeli point of view to Americans. BDS (Boycott, Divestment, Sanctions) is essentially a sanctions campaign. It's meant to hit Israel where it hurts - to push Israel toward more ethical conduct toward Palestinians. The fact that ADL says "ouch" on behalf of Israel, does not mean that ADL is "disreputable" or whatever other names Jim Carroll called it. In other words, ADL is calling BDS effective. The fact that people or organizations make statements you disagree with, does not make them "disreputable." I don't always agree with ADL, but I've found them to be quite reputable, and to be honestly representative of Israeli and Jewish viewpoints. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Joe Offer Date: 29 Jan 18 - 06:26 PM I find this post to be problematic: Thread #163483 Message #3902516 Posted By: bobad 28-Jan-18 - 07:52 PM Thread Name: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
The three main goals of the BDS movement targeting Israel are: The first three points appear to come from some official source. They seem to be an accurate description of the goals of BDS - and they seem like reasonable goals.
The next group of three points attempts to explain the first three, but I find them to be misleading and unreasonable. Where'd you get the two 3-point sets, Bobad? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Greg F. Date: 29 Jan 18 - 06:28 PM The fact that ADL says "ouch" on behalf of Israel, does not mean that ADL is "disreputable" No, Joe, but the fact that they misrepresent what the BDS folks are all about MOST DEFINATELY DOES! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Greg F. Date: 29 Jan 18 - 06:45 PM Where'd you get the two 3-point sets, Bobad? Out of his arse. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: bobad Date: 29 Jan 18 - 07:11 PM 1.Ending its occupation and colonization of all Arab lands and dismantling the Wall. What Arab lands do you think are being referred to here? 2.Recognizing the fundamental rights of the Arab-Palestinian citizens of Israel to full equality. ALL citizens in Israel have full equality. 3. Respecting, protecting and promoting the rights of Palestinian refugees to return to their homes and properties as stipulated in UN Resolution 194. The official BDS site states there are 7.25 million "Palestinian" refugees. Use your fucking head. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Steve Shaw Date: 29 Jan 18 - 07:18 PM ADL has, for many decades, obsessively collected mountains of information about any individual it sees as a threat, and that amounts to thousands of individuals. I wonder why. They bestowed great honour on Silvio Berlusconi, ignoring his totally corrupt character because he is such a stalwart friend of the Israeli state. Wow. Their claim that BDS has the aim of dismantling the state of Israel is utterly without foundation. To put it another way, Joe, it's a damned lie. But this is what they do. They pounce on any criticism of the actions or policies of the Israeli regime and, more or less automatically, condemn it as antisemitic. So yes, it is a highly disreputable organisation. That is not to say that they haven't done some good work to promote the cause of Jewish people, but they have routinely tarnished themselves as described. Even Mussolini made the bloody trains run on time. Wiki: In 1989, the linguist and left-wing commentator and activist Noam Chomsky characterized the ADL as having lost entirely its focus on civil rights issues in order to become solely an advocate for Israeli policy; he held that the ADL cast all left-wing opposition to Israeli interests as antisemitism. Wanna deny that? Norman Finkelstein claims that organizations such as the Anti-Defamation League have brought forward charges of new anti-Semitism at various intervals since the 1970s, "not to fight antisemitism, but rather to exploit the historical suffering of Jews in order to immunize Israel against criticism".The Washington Post has noted that the ADL has repeatedly accused Finkelstein of being a "Holocaust denier", and that "these charges have proved baseless". Just read their stuff! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Steve Shaw Date: 29 Jan 18 - 07:54 PM "Many countries, state jurisdictions, cities and universities have banned BDS as a thinly disguised anti-Semitic movement and have made it illegal." Untrue. Hardly any countries have banned BDS. 21 states in the US have stated opposition to BDS and passed some form of legislature but these do not all necessarily amount to blanket "bans," and states are not countries in any case. A few city legislatures, and I mean a few, have passed laws banning BDS or some of their activities. The reasons for these decisions are very varied, but "thinly-disguised antisemitic movement" is rarely, if ever, expressed as one of them. The EU opposes the calling of sanctions against Israel but there is no ban. Israel has certainly banned BDS and has caused outrage by preventing BDS supporters from entering the country. What price free speech? There are plenty of Israelis who oppose what their regime is doing but they are not permitted to hear similar dissenting voices in their own country. I'll remember that next time somebody tells me what a mighty democracy Israel is. It's against the law in Israel to call for a boycott either of the country or of settlements. As individuals calling for boycotts are not allowed into the country, if Bibi reads my posts, Joe, that proposed holiday of mine will never happen! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Joe Offer Date: 29 Jan 18 - 08:36 PM From what I hear, Steve, Bibi is known to be corrupt and will most likely go to trial soon after he leaves his office as Prime Minister. I don't think you have anything to worry about. Trouble is, our Armenian-Israeli tour guide says most Israeli Prime Ministers over the last thirty years have been corrupt and have gone to trial. So, go on your trip - and be sure to try the Palestinian beer - TaybehGoldstar and Maccabee are the two favorite beers in Israel. I think I liked Taybeh best. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Steve Shaw Date: 29 Jan 18 - 08:51 PM Three points about what follows,which is from wiki. First, it's a boring read. Sometimes you have to wade through boring things to tease out the reality of the situation. The reality appears to be that bobad's claim that the aim is for full equality for Palestinians in Israel is poppycock. Second, a lot of the stuff is a good few years out of date. And third, in connection with the last point, there have been some improvements for Arabs in Israel, largely for better-off ones. I'm sure that someone disagreeing with the tenor of this post will jump in and, hopefully, provide the facts of the matter. But, substantially, what I've pasted below is, I believe, a reflection of the state of inequality in Israel. And I do recognise that every country on Earth has too much inequality. In Israel's case, it seems that inequality between Jews and Arabs is very sharp and many points of it need a fair bit of explaining. Not all of it is the result of deliberate discrimination, but a lot of it definitely is. Read on if you have the strength. In 2005, of the 40 towns in Israel with the highest unemployment rates, 36 were Arab towns.According to the Central Bank of Israel statistics for 2003, salary averages for Arab workers were 29% lower than for Jewish workers. Difficulties in procuring employment have been attributed to a comparatively low level of education vis-a-vis their Jewish counterparts, insufficient employment opportunities in the vicinity of their towns, discrimination by Jewish employers, and competition with foreign workers in fields, such as construction and agriculture.Arab women have a higher unemployment rate in the work force relative to both religious and secular Jewish women. While among Arab men the employment was found to be on par with Jewish men, 17% of Arab women were found to be employed. This puts the Arab employment at 68% of the Israeli average. The Druze and Christian Arabs have higher employment than Muslims. Further, due largely to improvements in health care, the Arab infant mortality rate dropped from 32 deaths per thousand births in 1970 to 8.6 per thousand in 2000. However, the Bedouin infant mortality rate is still the highest in Israel, and one of the highest in the developed world. In 2003, the infant mortality rate among Arab citizens overall was 8.4 per thousand, more than twice as high as the rate 3.6 per thousand among the Jewish population. In the 2002 budget, Israel's health ministry allocated Arab communities less than 0.6% of its 277 m-shekel (?35m) budget (1.6 m shekels {?200,000}) to develop healthcare facilities. In 2001, Human Rights Watch described government-run Arab schools as "a world apart from government-run Jewish schools." The report found striking differences in virtually every aspect of the education system. In 2005, the Follow-Up Committee for Arab Education said that the Israeli government spent an average of $192 a year on Arab students compared to $1,100 for Jewish students. The drop-out rate for Arabs was twice as high as for Jews (12 percent versus 6 percent). There was a 5,000-classroom shortage in the Arab sector. According to the 2004 U.S. State Department Country Reports on Human Rights Practices for Israel and the occupied territories, "Israeli Arabs were underrepresented in the student bodies and faculties of most universities and in higher professional and business ranks. Well educated Arabs often were unable to find jobs commensurate with their level of education. According to Sikkuy, Arab citizens held approximately 60 to 70 of the country's 5,000 university faculty positions." Arab educators have long voiced concerns over institutionalized budgetary discrimination. An August 2009 study published by the Hebrew University's School of Education claimed that Israel's Education Ministry discriminated against Arabs in its allocations of special assistance for students from low socioeconomic backgrounds and the average per-student allocation at Arab junior high schools was one-fifth the average at Jewish ones. This was due to the allocation method: funds were first divided between Arab and Jewish school systems according to the number of students in each, and then allocated to needy students; however, due to the large proportion of such students in the Arab sector, they receive less funds, per student, than Jewish students. The Ministry of Education said it was discontinuing this method in favor of a uniform index.Ministry data on the percentage of high school students who passed their matriculation exams showed that Arab towns were ranked lowest except for Fureidis, which had the third highest pass rate (75.86 percent) in Israel. Nearly half of Arab students who passed their matriculation exams failed to win a place in higher education because they performed poorly in the Psychometric Entrance Test, compared to 20% of Jewish applicants. Khaled Arar, a professor at Beit Berl College, believes the psychometric test is culturally biased: "The gap in psychometric scores between Jewish and Arab students has remained steady "at more than 100 points out of a total of 800" since 1982. That alone should have raised suspicions." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Steve Shaw Date: 29 Jan 18 - 08:54 PM I've got another £1600 to pay for those windows still, Joe, and that's just the last third of the total. The Israeli ladies are safe for a little while longer yet! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Steve Shaw Date: 29 Jan 18 - 08:56 PM Grrr. The software will let me do dollar signs but not pound signs. I've been discriminated against! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Joe Offer Date: 29 Jan 18 - 10:29 PM I think our Armenian Israeli tour guide would verify what you say, Steve. He said all non-Jews in Israel are second-class citizens. The standard of living is quite good for everyone, but Arabs and others simply do not have the same rights and status that Jews have. He acknowledged that the Jewish Israelis do a lot of their "dirty tricks" to maintain control in the Knesset because they fear that if they didn't they wouldn't survive - but still and all, mistreatment of non-Jews in Israel is the rule, not the exception - as is oppression of Arab Palestinians. So - my question is: how can the Jewish Israelis maintain their own security in a way that does not oppress non-Jews? It seems impossible, but somebody has to find a way. It seems to me, that Jewish Israelis need their Arab population to maintain prosperity while moving away from dependence on U.S. subsidies - but how can that be made to work? -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Joe Offer Date: 30 Jan 18 - 03:50 AM Seems to me that Jerusalem is a big impediment to any sort of two-state resolution, since the city is important to all the world. Seems to me that the walled Old City ought to be an international city, property of no one, perhaps as a United Nations UNESCO Heritage Site. Then West Jerusalem could be capital of Israel, and East Jerusalem of Palestine. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 30 Jan 18 - 04:00 AM "disreputable" or whatever other names Jim Carroll called it." Instead of referring to "what I called it" inderectly Joe, why not trying to address the points I made head-on; they are either accurate or wrong, simple as that, but they are specific - a million miles from your own amorphous defence of Israel Try again; why not read this through and see if it rings any bells. INEQUALITY REPORT Once again I find it necessary to make my own attitude to Israel clear All my life I have been brought up to respect the idea of a Jewish State My father went to Spain when his family realised from information being passed on to them from Jewish refugees living in close to where they lived in Liverpool Politically, members of my family associated with Jewish activists and were part of the anti-Fascist demonstrations ahet took place in the thirties - my grandmother was arrested for throwing a stone that hit Mosly at one of his street meetings (a good Catholic lady who told the arresting officer "that stone was guided by the hand of God") My father's brother was a regular soldier and was present at the opening of one of the concentration camps - a traumatic experience He later went on to serve in British Palestine and was among the last to leave when the British handed over power - he described hearing the gunfire and explosions as Arabs here cleared out of their homes to make room for the new settlers. I first became aware of what was happening in Israel from Jewish friends in Manchester, mainly left-wing, who had become increasingly disturbed at the behaviour of the Jewish administration towards the Arab population After a visit to the film, Shoah, my girl-friends mother, a Holocaust survivor, exploded in anger one night and called them "a bunch of ****** fascists" - it led to the break-up in my relationship with her daughter - I was iunable to get my head around the concept of a Jewish fascist, knowing what I knew about their experience in the camps. The mother once spoke to me at length about their experiences and left me with a saying that has influenced my life ever since "Never again - not to anybody" THat has had a major influence on my attitude to what is happening - in the world, not just Israel, ever since So when the scumbags fling around their accusations of antisemitism and refuse to debate honestly, (as you are doing here), it acts as confirmation of what I believe I have learned from people who know better Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Joe Offer Date: 30 Jan 18 - 05:33 AM I'm not disagreeing with you, Jim. That's why I can't figure out why you're getting so upset about what I've posted. I am, however, trying to flesh things out by adding my photos and personal observations. I also prefer to rely on rational, dispassionate sources and to stay away from propaganda. But since you've been so irrational, I haven't been responding to you. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Steve Shaw Date: 30 Jan 18 - 05:54 AM "So - my question is: how can the Jewish Israelis maintain their own security in a way that does not oppress non-Jews?" I don't want to be giving glib or clever-clogs answers, Joe, but the best way of achieving that security would be to stop oppressing non-Jews in Israel, to unblock Gaza and to jaw-jaw first with the neighbouring states before going into attack mode. There's an awful lot of unresolved chicken-and-egg about conflicts in that region. Jim may not like that, but I don't see too many innocents in the mix. Israel has the prosperity, the allies and the influence to make far more positive moves than it has done towards solutions. And those allies could be a damn sight more critical whilst still remaining allies. That lack of REAL criticism, along with the lack of conditionality in their dealings with Israel, is a massive part of the problem. It simply feeds the hubris of the regime. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 30 Jan 18 - 06:02 AM "I also prefer to rely on rational, dispassionate sources and to stay away from propaganda." You have been given no propaganda Joe - unless you regard press reports of actual events as such You have put forward a great deal yourself Refusing to respond to such information is as "irrational as it gets. Once you take an interest in Israel the facts speak for themselves How dare you accuse half the world, in cluding groups like Amnesty, Human Rihghts Watch, Medicins Sans Frontieres, Robert Fisk.... et al, of peddling "propaganda You really have chosen your side, havent you I see there was little point in posting The Inequality Report, but as with Keith, Bobad and Bearded Bruce, it wasn't aimed at closed minds. Respond to what has been posted or stand disgraced as someone who just doesn't want to lnow Lies or facts - make up your mind Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 30 Jan 18 - 06:04 AM By the way, do you believe the Pope to be an Antisemite? That was one link you've ignored to date Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Steve Shaw Date: 30 Jan 18 - 07:24 AM The Inequality Report certainly gives the lie to the notion that the Israeli regime is striving for greater equality and an end to discrimination, and they seem to have done little to fight prejudicial views among Jewish citizens. The report is without hype and drama and deals largely with unarguable statistics. It makes for uncomfortable reading. Inequalities arise in every country and the US and UK have absolutely nothing to brag about in this regard. But this report shows that much of the inequality in Israel arises from discriminatory practices which are largely deliberate. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 30 Jan 18 - 07:50 AM This interesting letter from this morning's Irish Times seems to put things in a nutshell Jim Carroll ISRAELI SETTLEMENTS IN OCCUPIED TERRITORIES Sir, - We, concerned citizens of Israel, are writing to you re?garding the Control of Econom?ic Activity (Occupied Territo?ries) Bill 2018, which was brought to our attention and which is due to be debated in Seaanad Eireann on January 30th.(Irish Senate) We urge Ireland to support any legislation that will help en?force differentiation between Israel per se and the settlements in the occupied territories of the West Bank and East Jerusa?lem. The Israeli occupation of the territories beyond the 1967 bor?ders, ongoing for more than 50 years with no end in sight, is not only unjust but also stands in vi?olation of numerous UN resolu?tions. UN Security Council Res?olution 2334 of December 23rd, 2016, adopted 14:1 by the Security Council (the US ab?stained), calls for the interna?tional community to differenti?ate between its relations with Is?rael per se within its 1967 bor?ders and its dealings with the Is?raeli settlements in the occu?pied territories. We are convinced that Isra?el's ongoing occupation of the Palestinian land in the West Bank and East Jerusalem is morally and strategically unsus?tainable, is detrimental to peace, and poses a threat to the security of Israel itself. It has been enabled by the le?niency of the international com?munity, whose rhetoric regard?ing the dire situation in Pales?tine has not been matched by ap?propriate action. While Ireland, along with the rest of the EU, considers the oc?cupation illegal, it continues to economically sustain it by trad?ing with illegal Israeli settle?ments established in clear and direct violation of international law. The occupation has been correctly identified by succes?sive Irish governments as a ma?jor obstacle to peace, which we believe remains attainable should we see the termination of the occupation and the reali?sation of the two-state para?digm that would lead to the emergence of a sovereign State of Palestine alongside Israel. It is clear to us that genuine reconciliation between Israel and Palestine, Israelis and Pal?estinians, is possible only if the paradigm of two separate and independent states prevails. As people who care deeply for Israel's future and long for our country to live in peace with its neighbours, we urge you to support the aforementioned Bill.-Yours, etc, URIAVNERY, Former member of Knesset, Sheli Party; Prof ELIE BARNAVI, Former ambassador to France; ILAN BARUCH, former ambassador to South Africa, Namibia, Botswana and Zimbabwe; MICHAEL BEN-YAIR, Former attorney-general of Israel; former acting supreme court justice; ROMAN BRONFMAN, Former member of Knesset, Meretz Party; AVRAHAM AVRUM BURG, Former speaker of the Knesset, Labor Party, Former chairman of the Jewish Agency for Israel; Prof NAOMI CHAZAN, former member of Knesset, Meretz Party, former president, New Israel Fund; YAEL DAYAN, former member of Knesset, Labor Party, former deputy mayor of Tel Aviv; Prof ITZHAK GALNOOR, former head of the Israeli Civil Service Commission, professor emeritus at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem; ERELA HADAR, former ambassador to the Czech Republic; Prof DAVID HAREL, vice-president, Israel Academy of Sciences and Humanities, computer scientist, Israel Prize recipient (2004) and EMET Prize laureate (2010); DANIKARAVAN, Sculptor, Israel Prize recipient (1977); MIKIKRATSMAN, Artist, EMET Prize laureate (2011); ALEXLEVAC, photojournalist, Israel Prize recipient (2005); Dr ALONLIEL, former director general of Ministry of Foreign Affairs, former ambassador to South Africa and Turkey; Prof YEHUDA JUDDNE'EMAN, Filmmaker, Israel Prize recipient (2009); TZALIRESHEF, former member of Knesset, Labor Party; Prof ZEEV STERNHELL, Political scientist, Israel Prize recipient (2008); DAVID TARTAKOVER, Designer, Israel Prize recipient (2002). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: bobad Date: 30 Jan 18 - 08:02 AM There are no illegal settlements - unless of course one assumes that Jews should not own property or build in those areas because they are Jews. Every current Jewish "settlement" is on land owned by Jews before 1948 or purchased after 1967. Settlements that tried to set up on land that was not Jewish owned have been dismantled. We continue to hear the term "illegal", but "legal and illegal" has to be more that political desires and interests. It has to refer to law. And, frankly, law established during the illegal Jordanian occupation of the area in which Jewish property was confiscated and retitled, and current PA regulations that ban sales or ownership of property by Jews is not valid. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Steve Shaw Date: 30 Jan 18 - 08:11 AM Yeah, right. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 30 Jan 18 - 12:32 PM "There are no illegal settlements " Course there aren't Bobad - what doi those ex-Knesset or United nations, or Human Rights members know about **** *** Why trust them when we have our own expert who knows so much that he blames the Jewish People for every crime committed by the the Israeli regime Keep up the good work Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Joe Offer Date: 30 Jan 18 - 01:59 PM Jim says: How dare you accuse half the world, in cluding groups like Amnesty, Human Rihghts Watch, Medicins Sans Frontieres, Robert Fisk.... et al, of peddling "propaganda. You really have chosen your side, havent you Jim, let me say this again: I am not disagreeing with you. I don't know of Robert Fisk, but all the others you list are agencies that I consider to be very credible sources of information. I do not deny the plight of Palestinians, but I have trying to study and understand what is happening in Israel in a rational manner, devoid of posturing and propaganda. If we stay on the stage of yelling and accusations and do not study the situation deeply, all we will have in the end is yelling and accusations - and no progress. The agencies you list HAVE studied the situation in a dispassionate, objective manner. Many of them have accomplished great things. But how much do WE understand of what they have learned. How can I blend what they have to say with my valid personal experience, and make sense of things? From what I could see, it seems that living conditions for Arabs in Israel, are similar to those of Mexicans living here in California. There are a few who have become very successful, but most are working-class people. Many are gardeners and dishwashers, or work in similar jobs. They do not have the access to education that Jewish Israelis have. But generally, they have adequate food and housing and other essentials. My personal observations make me suspect that there are many Jewish people in Israel, mostly recent immigrants, who live in similar conditions. The difference is that these immigrants can assimilate and succeed, and the Arabs who have lived in Palestine for generations do not have that hope. For Arabs in Palestine, the situation is more like life for lower-class Mexicans in Mexico - most seem to be living on the brink of poverty, with no hope of getting out. Back in 1999, I heard one Israeli speak of Palestinians as "always wanting something for nothing." It reminded me of how some Americans talk of welfare recipients - blaming people for their poverty, with no sympathy or understanding for the hopeless conditions these people live in. A few messages above, Steve posted a lengthy excerpt from Wikipedia about conditions for Arabs in Israel. It seems to be quite accurate and objective, and it's worthy of consideration. But back to the Anti-Defamation League - I think they give an accurate representation of mainstream thought among Jewish Israelis. They express what Jewish Israelis believe, whether or not those beliefs are correct. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 30 Jan 18 - 02:00 PM Fine, then leave the "propaganda" bit out of the conversation Joe - it confuses things Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Joe Offer Date: 30 Jan 18 - 02:10 PM And yet, in the cities of Israel and Palestine, living conditions for the common people seem to be far better than what I saw in Egypt. I do not know about village life in Palestine, and life in the refugee camps. I suspect that life in the camps in Palestine is similar to what I saw in the slums of Cairo and in the "City of the Dead" cemeteries that tens of thousands call home in Cairo. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 30 Jan 18 - 02:59 PM "Jim, let me say this again: I am not disagreeing with you." So what Joe? These countries are historically impoverished states - Israel is wealthy and powerful You compare the position of people living within a state, not to those living elsewhere Go read the Inequality Report and you'll find it's not just about living conditions, it's how people are teated, what rghts they have, their security, the say they have in their lives and the right to be treated as human beings.... and many more things This area has been home to Arabs for thousands of years and now they live with the risk of being driven out of it to make room for people of a different culture - ethnically cleansed. Even the Nazis were able to produce films showing how well-off Jews were in the concentration camps You really do need to get your head around what is happening in Israel Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Joe Offer Date: 30 Jan 18 - 03:39 PM [Sigh] |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 30 Jan 18 - 04:01 PM I know exactly what you mean Joe Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: robomatic Date: 30 Jan 18 - 04:27 PM Man, Jim, you really love dem Nazis! You can't lay off trying to put the girl in bed with the guy who raped her! Even Hollywood is gettin' tired of this kind of harrassment. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Joe Offer Date: 30 Jan 18 - 04:48 PM Well, let's get back to something of substance. I wanted to reply to this post from above: Thread #163483 Message #3901716 Posted By: bobad 25-Jan-18 - 12:52 PM Thread Name: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem
The myth of an indigenous "Palestinian" population that had it's land stolen from them by the Jews is simply that - a myth. In fact this CENSUS done by a Dutchman, Hadriani Relandi in 1695 finds virtually no Arab presence whatsoever in Palestine. That's all well and good, Bobad, but this photo (click) shows two very obvious pieces of evidence that contradict what you have to say:
And Bobad, those were real bulldozers that destroyed the homes where Palestinians had lived for generations, so that they could build their fancy Jewish condominium "settlements." That was the paragon of cruelty, and the whole world is outraged by those huge, fancy, military-guarded "settlements." I saw those settlements with my own eyes - they are beautiful, but they are an outrage. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: bobad Date: 30 Jan 18 - 05:19 PM Kinda blows your "Jews legitimately purchased unoccupied territory" all to smithereens, doesn't it? You're conflating two different things there Joe, but I get why you're doing that and you're not the only one to do it. Also you are putting words in my mouth - just thought I would point that out. You do know that the Dome of the Rock was built by invading Arab colonizers who displaced the Jews and that it was built on the former Jewish temple that had been destroyed by the Roman colonizers don't you? Or do you believe Abbas' revisionist history when he says that there was never a Jewish presence there? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: bobad Date: 30 Jan 18 - 05:26 PM Land Ownership in Palestine 1880-1948 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Greg F. Date: 30 Jan 18 - 05:54 PM Anti-Defamation League ...an accurate representation of mainstream thought among Jewish Israelis. And therein lies a good part of the problem, Joe, dunnit? Since a lot of what they believe is simply not true- rather like our own Trumpists- and the ADL does its best to perpetuate the myths and misrepresentations - rather like our own Fux News and/or Breitbart. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: bobad Date: 30 Jan 18 - 06:24 PM Something to think about by those so eager to perpetuate the classic anti-Semitic trope that the Jews stole the land of the Palestinians: Land stolen from Jews in Arab countries equals over 100,000 sq. km: nearly five times the entire size of the state of Israel pre-1967 (22,000 sq. km) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Greg F. Date: 30 Jan 18 - 06:36 PM But Mommie! Billy hit me first! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Steve Shaw Date: 30 Jan 18 - 07:00 PM "...and the ADL does its best to perpetuate the myths and misrepresentations..." True. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Steve Shaw Date: 30 Jan 18 - 07:42 PM Not exactly an unbiased source, bobad. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: bobad Date: 30 Jan 18 - 07:46 PM Not exactly an unbiased source, bobad. So point any factual errors and we'll examine them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Steve Shaw Date: 30 Jan 18 - 07:54 PM Why does it have to be "factual errors?" The overall tone is tendentiously anti-Arab and racist. The perspective is the thing, bobad. The Daily Mail is exceptionally careful to avoid anything that can be called "a factual error," yet is still a scurrilous rag. To deny these things is to be disingenuous in the extreme. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: bobad Date: 30 Jan 18 - 07:55 PM Yup, thought so - you're so effing transparent. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Steve Shaw Date: 30 Jan 18 - 08:42 PM Sorry, it's you who isn't answering. The challenge is that your source is biased, it has an anti-Arab racist tone and that it tries to conceal the bias with "moderate" language. I read exactly the same kind of "reasonable" language in Iain Smith's illegal constitution for Southern Rhodesia after he'd declared UDI in the 60s. Very carefully-couched tones that made it look so reasonable that whites were given 49% of the land while twenty times as many blacks were given 51%. Needless to say, the whites got the oil and the blacks got the grease. My two uncles kept families of "servants," the main man known as the house boy, in shacks at the edge of their land. Those "chappies" were told that they should be grateful as they were a damn sight better off there than living out in the bush or in any of the neighbouring countries. Now where have I heard that argument before? I know that you will stick to your guns but it's still worth pointing out to anyone left reading this that they should read your source with eyes wide open, look at its origin and look for unbiased ones as well while they're at it. And I'm not insulting you, by the way. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Joe Offer Date: 31 Jan 18 - 12:54 AM So, Bobad, can you give us a little history of the presence of Jews in the Levant from the destruction of Jerusalem by Rome in 70 AD until the Jews began moving to Israel through the Zionist movement of the 19th century? History shows the continuing presence of Muslims in Jerusalem since the Dome of the Rock was built in 691 CE. Otherwise, with whom did the Crusaders do battle? -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Joe Offer Date: 31 Jan 18 - 03:36 AM OK, so Bobad quotes a document titled LAND OWNERSHIP IN PALESTINE, 1880?1948, from the Rohr Jewish Learning Institute. I'm not sure which document Steve is calling "anti-Arab and racist" in tone, but that description certainly fits this document. Here's a passage from the document that's a pretty good summary of the whole thing. It's more-or-less consistent with my understanding - that the lands were owned by absentee landlords, mostly Ottoman Turks, who left the residents alone as long as they paid reasonably low rents. There was no system that allowed the Palestinians to take ownership of the lands where they lived. The Jews legitimately bought the land from the absentee landlords, leaving the Palestinians without homes. I'm having a hard time understanding why Bobad considers that to be justice. Here's the excerpt:
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 31 Jan 18 - 03:53 AM "Man, Jim, you really love dem Nazis! " Since meeting to many of their lookalikes on this thread I've learned to live with 'em Robo The first time I heard what was happening in Israel compared to what happened under the Nazis was when a Holocaust survive made the comparison back in the 1960s (about twenty five years after she had experienced the real thing first hand) The last time I heard it from anybody with authority on the subject was while watching the documentary film, 'The Gatekeepers', when an ex director of the Israeli security group, Shin Bet made the comparison " 70 AD until the Jews began moving to Israel through the Zionist movement of the 19th century?" Why on earth are we discussing what happened centuries even millennia ago as part of what is happening in today's Israel? Maybe when we've finished, perhaps we can go on to discuss whether Native Americans have a greater right to occupy the United States than do the present incumbents !!! Similarly, comparing the living standards of Arabs living in Israel with that of Egypt or neighbouring countries is somewhat reminiscent of arguments put forward by supporters of slavery who pointed out that plantation slaves lived better lives in bondage than they did "back home in Africa" Stupid and inhuman The land is occupied by Arabs and Jews - that is the situation at the present time and has been for many centuries; to attempt to change that by force is Ethnic Cleansing and that is what is happening in Israel - it is also what is being argued for here Much of the trouble of the world today is directly traceable back to British rule under the Empire - Israel is a prime example of the mess left behind when Britain departed. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 31 Jan 18 - 04:03 AM "Rohr Jewish Learning Institute" A religious organisation founded in 1999 with 117,500 enrolled members Hardly an unbiased authority with a confirmed reputation Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Steve Shaw Date: 31 Jan 18 - 06:01 AM Didn't have time last night and I'm a bit pushed today, but I was going to go through that document and illustrate what I meant by tendentiously anti-Arab and racist. "Factual errors" is absolutely NOT the issue. If it continues to simmer I'll do it later on today. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 31 Jan 18 - 06:56 AM Yesterday the Irish senate debated a bill supporting Irish support for B.D.S. Netanyahu has summoned the Irish ambassador to protest such a debate Since when...... Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: bobad Date: 31 Jan 18 - 08:28 AM Yesterday the Irish senate debated a bill supporting Irish support for B.D.S. No surprise there considering the behaviour of the Irish government during WWII. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: bobad Date: 31 Jan 18 - 08:29 AM Joe, the census I linked to that found little Arab presence in Palestine was from 1695 - the crusades took place in the 11th, 12th and 13th centuries - try to keep coherent. You say: There was no system that allowed the Palestinians to take ownership of the lands where they lived. The Jews legitimately bought the land from the absentee landlords, leaving the Palestinians without homes. I'm having a hard time understanding why Bobad considers that to be justice. First off, you you say leaving "Palestinians" without homes. FYI at this time the world understood that "Palestinian" meant "Jew", the non Jews were Christians and Arabs. As for no system that allowed the Palestinians to take ownership of the lands where they lived the system was the same as it was for the Jews, why would it have been different? Besides, the land was mostly unused, barren and sparsely populated, it was only once the Jews improved the land and started industries that the influx of Arabs from neighbouring countries began. To somehow attempt to denigrate the Jews for acquiring land by legal means contrasted by how most of the Middle East and North Africa was taken by force from the indigenous population by the Arabs smacks of racism. As a matter of fact the entire tone of this thread is beginning to smack of racism as it usually does with the usual suspects. I will leave you all now to carry on with your Jew bashing - have fun. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 31 Jan 18 - 08:40 AM "No surprise there considering the behaviour of the Irish government during WWII." Staying neutral in a war that need not have happened if the allies hadn't stood by while Hitler was happily turning the Jews into second-rate citizens in preparation for exterminating six million of them seems a laudable enough action to me The Jewish population of Ireland has nothing but praise for the treatment they receive in Ireland - go look it up Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 31 Jan 18 - 08:49 AM Jewish/Irish relations and HOW IT IS BEING FOULED UP BY ISRAEL Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Steve Shaw Date: 31 Jan 18 - 07:30 PM And what precisely has the Irish government in WW11 got to go with today? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 31 Jan 18 - 08:25 PM "And what precisely has the Irish government in WW11 got to go with today?" Bobad and Keith have a "racist" thing about Ireland The former has accused Ireland of being Antisemitic on numerous occasions, the latter thinks that all Irish children have been "brainwashed to hate Britain" Bobad, of course, believes everybody who accuses Israel of anything, from massacring refugees to dropping litter, is "a Jew hater" Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Joe Offer Date: 31 Jan 18 - 10:16 PM Bobad, I am curious about the history of both Jewish and Arab peoples in Palestine. I join discussions like this to try to learn, to test out ideas and to see what other people have to say, and then Whack!- I get hit upside the head by some sophomoric know-it-all who has all the answers and thinks me The Enemy, when all I was trying to do was think and discuss. And in this thread, I get theWhack!from both sides.But basically, I'm not interested in what Jews or Arabs were were in the past. The past is good for providing context and understanding, but what I'm worried about is now. And NOW is the time when Israeli bulldozers are destroying Palestinian homes to build these hideous "settlements." How can that be just? -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Jim Carroll Date: 01 Feb 18 - 04:37 AM "sophomoric know-it-all who has all the answers and thinks me The Enemy" Joe I was born almost exactly six months before the secret Wannsee Conference took place, where the Nazis first sat down and carefully planned the murders of up to and probably more than ten million human beings (we tend only to remember six million of them nowadays) The events coming from that conference affected my and my family's lives - for me, it meant I didn't get to know the man who was the greatest and most important influence on my life and thinking until I was about ten years old - my father. He and his parents cared enough about their fellow human beings to take to the streets when they learned what was happening in 1930s Germany, he went to Spain because of those events, was wounded, captured and persecuted and mentally tortured for the period of his captivity When he returned home, he found himself with an MI5 record as a "premature anti-fascist", blacklisted from a promising career and condemned to Eternal Damnation by his/your Church (luckily, he had shaken off the spiritual bogeymen that your church had saddled him with in his youth) He passed on to me in the 15 years I knew him up to his death, a deep concern about how human beings treat each other. The events of Europe in the 1930s and 40s have formed a large part of my thinking throughout my life, and were added to by the Jewish People I knew and befriended in the four years I lived in Manchester You came back from Israel with and anodyne picture of what was happening in Israel, berating us for not having been there and telling us we would like it if we went - completely at odds with my own interpretation of the events there. You have been both dismissive of those who didn't accept your rose-tinted picture and abusive towards the arguments we have put forward, refusing to respond to any of them - you still haven't done so. You complain about being abused, yet you have done your share of abusing. You moved gradually from your rosy, uncritical picture of Israel, to fence-sitting and now you appear to be edging into maybe a rational discussion (nobody is asking for surrender - just an exchange of ideas and experiences) Your complaining about being whacked by both sides is, in my opinion, the result of your shifting position - unfortunately that's the way arguments are conducted on this forum (guilty as charged on that one) What concerned me most is that someone who I respect (while disagreeing with strongly on some subjects) took the position you did on so obvious (to me anyway) a massive abuse of humanity - a repetition of history where the victims have become the perpetrators. I apologise if I have overstated my case - put it down to a poor upbringing - but please don't reduce my concern for something that has occupied a large part of my life and thinking to an academic study ("some sophomoric know-it-all") It's a little more than that, to me anyway Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Greg F. Date: 01 Feb 18 - 08:59 AM How can that be just? Because God gave then the land to do with whatever thay want. Next question. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Joe Offer Date: 01 Feb 18 - 04:25 PM I admire your passion, Jim. I am sorry that you are so quick to judge me. I prefer to explore issues before coming to conclusions. My description of my observations was hardly "anodyne." From the very first post, I described the outrage of the settlements, the violent conduct of the soldiers, and the fact that non-Jewish citizens of Israel are treated as second-class citizens. All of this stuff that you condemn, is your imagination of what I think. Same goes for your endless condemnations of what you think I think of the Catholic Church. I prefer to carefully gather facts and explore alternatives and find solutions that are constructive, peaceable, and beneficial for all. That takes careful thought and discussion. Quick condemnation doesn't accomplish anything. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Steve Shaw Date: 02 Feb 18 - 07:43 PM Israel uses tourism to legitimise illegal settlements. All over the internet today. Here's a snippet or two from the Guardian report. Israel is developing archaeological and tourism sites to legitimise illegal settlements in Palestinian neighbourhoods of Jerusalem, European Union diplomats in the city have warned. A leaked report acquired by the Guardian cited projects in parts of East Jerusalem, occupied by Israel since 1967, that are being used as a political tool to modify the historical narrative and to support, legitimise and expand settlements. The report identified settler-run excavation sites in the heart of majority-Arab districts, a proposed cable car project with stops on confiscated land and the designation of built-up urban areas as national parks.... ...Marginalisation of Palestinians, who comprise about 37% of the city's residents, continued unabated, with more than 130 building demolitions and the displacement of 228 people, it said... ...Archaeology and tourism development by government institutions as well as private settler organisations established what it said was a "narrative based on historic continuity of the Jewish presence in the area at the expense of other religions and cultures." Chief among them, the report warned, was the City of David, a government-funded archeological park in the Palestinian neighbourhood of Silwan that provides tours in the ruins of ancient Jerusalem. The site is operated by a settler organisation "promoting an exclusively Jewish narrative, while detaching the place from its Palestinian surroundings." Approximately 450 settlers live under heavy protection in Silwan, the report said, alongside almost 10,000 Palestinians. Continued evictions of Palestinian families and the increased Israeli security presence have created a particular tension, it warned. More recently, a cable car project approved by the Israeli cabinet in May plans to connect West Jerusalem with the Old City, part of Jerusalem internationally recognised as occupied.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Joe Offer Date: 02 Feb 18 - 10:00 PM I don't completely understand the status of East Jerusalem. We stayed at an Arab-owned hotel in what we were told was East Jerusalem, but we were on the west side of the infamous Wall. If I'm understanding the story correctly, Israel "annexed" the portion of East Jerusalem that is west of the Wall - and this is valuable commercial property. I'm wondering if the Arabs living there became Israeli citizens. The Wall is 708 kilometres (440 mi) long. Along its length, it cuts off various Palestinian enclaves and denies 25,000 Palestinians access to Palestine. It is true that before the Wall was built, Jewish Israelis did have reason to fear suicide bombers, especially in Jerusalem. Suicide bombings were a frequent occurrence, and the number of suicide bombings has dwindled to almost nothing. But in building the Wall, the Israelis did not take the needs of Palestinians into consideration, and that's a major injustice. And then there's Gaza. The Gaza Strip is one of the most densely populated places in the world. It is 41 kilometers (25 mi) long, and from 6 to 12 kilometers (3.7 to 7.5 mi) wide, with a total area of 365 square kilometers (141 sq mi). That's about twice the size of the Sea of Galilee, and a little bit smaller than Lake Tahoe in California - with a population of 1.85 million. It has a border with Egypt that is 11 kilometers (6.8 mi) long, and it has been able to get supplies from Egypt off and on - mostly off, I understand. Otherwise, its other land borders are adjacent to Israel, and Israel currently does allow Gaza to import non-military goods through Israel. Its Mediterranean coastline is 40 kilometers (25 mi). There is a small resort, Al-Bustan on the beach north of Gaza City. Between 1967 and 2005, Israel established 21 settlements in Gaza, comprising 20% of the total territory. I'm imagining that these Jewish "settlements" were ritzy seaside condominium complexes like I saw all around the Palestinian territory outside Jerusalem. In 2005, Israel evicted all 9,000 Jewish settlers from Gaza and abandoned its efforts to occupy the Gaza Strip. Gaza is not far from Tel Aviv, and short-range missiles have occasionally been fired from Gaza into the outskirts of Tel Aviv. I didn't get a chance to visit Gaza, so all I know is what I read. Gaza does show signs of progress, however. Th literacy rate is very high, and there are college level schools in the Gaza Strip. I've said this before, and some people have scoffed. But I think it's important to realize that more and more, Palestininians are becoming proud of their nation and its ability to continue existing and growing in defiance of all efforts by Israel to control it. My sister has hosted a number of Palestinian exchange students in Wisconsin, and I have met at least two or three of them. These are good kids, and they're smart, and they're proud of Palestine and defiant against Israel. -Joe- This looks like an interesting article from the Jerusalem Post: Living in Jerusalem Behind the Wall. It's an interesting article, and the photos are especially disturbing. I thought I hadn't seen the refugee camps, but our bus drove right past the Qalandiya camp on the highway to Tel Aviv just west of Jerusalem, and through the neighborhood described in the article. We couldn't see much. It was a crowded area, and there was a big prison adjacent to the military checkpoint we went through. Our guide said the prison was for Arab political prisoners. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: robomatic Date: 03 Feb 18 - 08:03 PM There is a clear distinction to be made in this and other threads. between folks who can make clear statements of facts and events and link to useful articles from outside this thread, yet be critical of Israel while open to ideas and concepts and refrain from ad hominem attacks. I have no problem with these posters. There are other posters who are contentious and abusive and repetitive. They do not have anything new to add but they insist on bringing in the same old tropes (Nazis especially. What reason is there to bring up Nazis except to be personally offensive?) and they are easily provoked into personal observations. They are ultimately not convincing even to themselves (or they wouldn't be so repetitive and self-righteous). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: Steve Shaw Date: 03 Feb 18 - 08:29 PM Well maybe. But contentious and abusive and repetitive people are important in this world. They are the way we get things changed. I dare say the Suffragettes were regarded as contentious and abusive and repetitive in their time, as were the people who, contrary to establishment wishes, opposed Mosley and fascism in the East End in the thirties. I suppose that Harvey Weinstein and his fellow-travellers regard some of his women victims as contentious, abusive and repetitive. It would be very nice for the Israeli regime if all their adversaries were non-contentious, non-abusive and non-repetitive, we know that. We know how much inconvenience contentious, abusive and repetitive people cause the powers that be. We call it democracy, actually. Your job, if you disagree with them, is to take them on, not try to shout them down as inconveniences. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Station in Old Jerusalem From: robomatic Date: 03 Feb 18 - 11:13 PM You by any chance a relation of George Bernard? You don't write like him (yet). I agree with the sentiment of your last post but it doesn't really change my post. We are not on the streets here, we're in a forum using words to spread heat and light. It is our choice how we choose to do that. My comments were of course my opinion (and of course it's right). |
