BS: DARK CHEDDAR, Quite Sharp

Subject: BS: DARK CHEDDAR, Quite Sharp
From: robomatic
Date: 08 Feb 18 - 06:54 PM

I remember watching the televion special, it might have been done under the National Geographic logo, some time ago, where a bog man was DNA sampled and found to have modern descendant(s) from Bristol in present day England.

Now it is proposed that he was blue-eyed and dark skinned.

But for me the main issue is the lip smacking yen for a well-aged hunk of the stuff when I read or here a reference to 'cheddar man'. There must be a Monty Python episode to go with this. Oh. Yes. There is!

Subject: RE: BS: DARK CHEDDAR, Quite Sharp
From: keberoxu
Date: 08 Feb 18 - 07:57 PM

Oh yes!
In the US press they are showing everywhere
that looks-like-a-photograph image
which is said to have been his.

Ha! Here I thought this thread had been started
by Steve Shaw, cheese maven that he be.

Subject: RE: BS: DARK CHEDDAR, Quite Sharp
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Feb 18 - 08:21 PM

I've just happened on this thread whilst consuming a guilty late-night hunk of Wookey Hole Cave-Aged Cheddar. What a coincidence!   Or is it...

I hear that they have the chap's complete genome. I must confess that those steely blue eyes set in a gentle, dark-skinned face make for quite a haunting image, but those features are presumably highly probable in the light of the fact that they have all his DNA worked out.

By the way, if you live somewhere that doesn't have emporia selling Wookey Hole Cheddar, you are severely unlucky.

Subject: RE: BS: DARK CHEDDAR, Quite Sharp
From: keberoxu
Date: 08 Feb 18 - 08:33 PM

National Geographic had on its front cover, years ago,
a woman's face. If I recall right,
she lived in the Sahara, not south of it,
and she was not so much Arabic as maybe
Berber/Kabyle , the people who were there when the Arabs rolled in.
Striking blue eyes, and deep-toned skin.
Remember her?

Subject: RE: BS: DARK CHEDDAR, Quite Sharp
From: Senoufou
Date: 09 Feb 18 - 04:24 AM

A chap from the Bristol area yesterday posted his photo next to that of the image of the dark-skinned, blue-eyed man, and the resemblance was astonishing. (It was on Yahoo) His family and friends were all taking the Mickey; he'll never live it down!

I'm still thrilled with the idea of the 'Black Irish' who had/have very blue eyes and very dark skin. My mother was one such. Her hair was absolutely jet black too. Is there any connection do you think?

Subject: RE: BS: DARK CHEDDAR, Quite Sharp
From: Will Fly
Date: 09 Feb 18 - 05:02 AM

Over a period of 10,000 years or so, there will have been many regional genetic permutations and combinations.

But, more to the point, where is Stilton Man?

Subject: RE: BS: DARK CHEDDAR, Quite Sharp
From: Senoufou
Date: 09 Feb 18 - 06:12 AM

Or indeed Camembert Homme.

Subject: RE: BS: DARK CHEDDAR, Quite Sharp
From: Jos
Date: 09 Feb 18 - 06:26 AM

Or for a blue (eyed) variety, Rocquefort man, from where the cheese is matured in limestone caves.

Subject: RE: BS: DARK CHEDDAR, Quite Sharp
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Feb 18 - 07:18 AM

As indeed is Wookey Hole cave-aged cheddar, Jos. Will, ask not about Stilton Man; rather, ask about Stichelton Man, a finer fellow by far. I find most Stilton to be underwhelming, often too salty or too dry or acidic, even bitter, but Stichelton, made with unpasteurised milk by one cheese maker in the same region, is infinitely superior. It absolutely doesn't keep so never buy a piece that is beginning to darken and always eat it within a couple of days. The cheese maker isn't allowed to call it Stilton, as the latter must be made only with pasteurised milk, but it's Stilton in all but name and is better than any Stilton I've ever tried. Stilton is always a young cheese, not able to be aged for yonks like some cheddars. If you go for blue cheese, I defy you to find anything finer than Bath Blue. Same cautionary notes apply!

Subject: RE: BS: DARK CHEDDAR, Quite Sharp
From: Senoufou
Date: 09 Feb 18 - 08:30 AM

Oh stop it all of you!! I've been told by the doctor that my really bad episodes of vertigo may be painless migraines triggered by BLUE CHEESE and RUNNY FRENCH CHEESE!!! So I mustn't have even a smidgeon of these types of food. And I love and adore them. I could eat a whole blooming Stilton or Danish blue, and those delicious small Camemberts in little round wooden boxes, all runny and creamy...
Oh boo hoo woe is me..... :(

Subject: RE: BS: DARK CHEDDAR, Quite Sharp
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Feb 18 - 08:34 AM

the scary stuff is that Cheddar Valley cider. It looks something made at Windscale. Mad orange.

wouldn't be surprised what colour you turned after drinking that stuff!

Subject: RE: BS: DARK CHEDDAR, Quite Sharp
From: Jos
Date: 09 Feb 18 - 08:47 AM

Don't forget Dorset Blue Vinny. Rumour has it that in times gone by, the cheese was started by dipping a (sweaty) horse's harness in the milk. I can't remember where I heard that, but it certainly has a distinctive flavour all its own.

Subject: RE: BS: DARK CHEDDAR, Quite Sharp
From: Will Fly
Date: 09 Feb 18 - 09:09 AM

Thomas Hardy used to have a glass of claret, a Dorset knob (crusty bread roll) and a wedge of Blue Vinny for his elevenses at Max Gate every day.

Yum!

I also have to watch my cheese intake because of cholesterol, but I have a weensy binge now and then. Off to Brittany next week and stopping off at Honfleur on the way. Bring on the Calvados and Brie!

By the way, Steve, does Stichelton travel?

Subject: RE: BS: DARK CHEDDAR, Quite Sharp
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Feb 18 - 09:37 AM

I only ever see it in the farm shop at Gloucester Services, Will. Sometimes they don't have it at all and other times it's blackening, so I only buy it if the timing's right. Whenever I buy it I have a cool box in my car to put it in, as I also buy pork at Gloucester Services, free-range Gloucester Old Spot dontcha know, so I go prepared. I wouldn't buy big hunks of it as we'd never get through it before it went over. It's quite pricey, by the way - occasional treat territory only!

I've discovered a superb camembert in Morrisons. It's made in Somerset by the Lubborn Creamery. A good, hearty rind and a rich, creamy middle that ripens beautifully. I can say without fear or favour that it's better than most French camemberts I've ever tried.

Subject: RE: BS: DARK CHEDDAR, Quite Sharp
From: Senoufou
Date: 09 Feb 18 - 09:42 AM

:(

Subject: RE: BS: DARK CHEDDAR, Quite Sharp
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Feb 18 - 10:39 AM

Senoufou, I bought a whole Stilton last year ............ you may be able to eat a whole Stilton, given time.

This one weighed 7.5 Kilograms about 16lb !!!!

Subject: RE: BS: DARK CHEDDAR, Quite Sharp
From: Senoufou
Date: 09 Feb 18 - 12:30 PM

Pah! I could eat one of those Raggytash. No problem. As long as it's nice and mature, not too dry (as Steve says) nice and moist and crumbly.
I think you're all horrid, and I'm going to go away and eat worms. :(

Subject: RE: BS: DARK CHEDDAR, Quite Sharp
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Feb 18 - 01:18 PM

My dad's family were from 15 miles of Cheddar.. don't know how far back my roots go in that location...???

I have blue eyes and [used to have] long dark wavy hair..
but not such a big hooter,
and I'm a very pallid white from living far too long indoors in a nocturnal lifestyle...

I might just as well have been living deep underground in a cave like an Axolotl...

There are however old eccentric west country naturists who tan nearly as dark a brown as Cheddar man.

Maybe he might really have been a very keen local nudist...???

Subject: RE: BS: DARK CHEDDAR, Quite Sharp
From: Joe_F
Date: 09 Feb 18 - 02:03 PM

There is a cheddar in US supermarkets that describes itself as "seriously sharp". I am glad to be protected from *frivolously* sharp cheese.

Subject: RE: BS: DARK CHEDDAR, Quite Sharp
From: Senoufou
Date: 09 Feb 18 - 02:20 PM

The reconstruction photo is actually very attractive. I could easily fancy him!

Subject: RE: BS: DARK CHEDDAR, Quite Sharp
From: MikeL2
Date: 09 Feb 18 - 02:32 PM

Hi

Cheshire all creamy and crumbly. Literally live with the stuff. !!

Got a nice bottle of Momtepulciano breathing ready for washing down some Cheshire cheese and some lovely very crusty bread....yum yum.

Cheers

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: DARK CHEDDAR, Quite Sharp
From: michaelr
Date: 09 Feb 18 - 03:29 PM

keberoxu: https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2017/12/afghan-girl-home-afghanistan/

Subject: RE: BS: DARK CHEDDAR, Quite Sharp
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Feb 18 - 03:44 PM

Mike, I too will be consuming Cheshire a very few minutes after typing this (along with some Wookey Hole and the Somerset Camembert), but I shall be washing it down with a gorgeous Primitivo from Puglia. You need to know, Cheshire-wise, that there is now only one Cheshire that's made the traditional way with unpasteurised milk. It's a glorious creation made by Appleby's, slightly orange in colour and a far cry from the usual Cheshires (which I love). M&S sell it. Give it a whirl and see if you like it as much as I do!

Subject: RE: BS: DARK CHEDDAR, Quite Sharp
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Feb 18 - 05:41 PM

I don't know how often I have to tell you lot. The further you get from Lancashire, the worse the cheese gets.

DtG

Ducking and running:-)

Subject: RE: BS: DARK CHEDDAR, Quite Sharp
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Feb 18 - 06:28 PM

There are several fine Lancashires, but the best is Mrs Kirkham's, made with unpasteurised milk, a rarity these days. Seek it out. You will LOVE it!

Subject: RE: BS: DARK CHEDDAR, Quite Sharp
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Feb 18 - 09:40 PM

This has become a bit runnier than I like.

Subject: RE: BS: DARK CHEDDAR, Quite Sharp
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Feb 18 - 04:49 AM

What.. early mankind moved to Cheddar because of the great cheese and cider...!!!??

Subject: RE: BS: DARK CHEDDAR, Quite Sharp
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 18 - 10:07 AM

Nah. It was easy to get to because the M5 was nowhere near as congested in those days.

Subject: RE: BS: DARK CHEDDAR, Quite Sharp
From: MikeL2
Date: 10 Feb 18 - 10:14 AM

Hi Steve

I have not heard or seen that special Cheshire. Off to Marks in the morning.

Thanks for the tip Cheers

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: DARK CHEDDAR, Quite Sharp
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 18 - 11:38 AM

There's no doubt that individual tastes vary wildly when it comes to cheese. Bland cheddar won't do for me at all. My favourites are Wookey Hole and Montgomery's. I don't mind the little crystals in some cheddars though some people object. Of the more artisanal cheddars, I've tried Quicke's in several varieties, Keens, Barber's, Green's, Lincolnshire Poacher and Westcombe, all good in their way. I found Gould's to be bitter. I've tried several supermarket ones too. The trouble is that cheddar sold in large quantities uses milk from many different farms and there must be some jiggerypokery going on at the creamery to get consistency. The creamery (owned by Dairy Crest) that makes all those Davidstow cheeses you see in M&S and elsewhere is just up the road from us. Its advertising blurb used to depict crashing Cornish seas at Bedruthan Steps. Well the creamery is not only miles from the coast but is even more miles from Bedruthan Steps, situated as it is next to a disused airfield in a bleak, foggy spot just outside Camelford, and the buildings resemble some sort of ghastly incineration plant. They collect their milk from hundreds of local farms in huge articulated tankers that frequently clog up the roads round here. The creamery makes all the Cathedral City cheese that you can buy everywhere. Actually, the Cathedral City Extra Mature (read the label carefully as the varieties all look similar) is rather good. There are one or two nice own-brand ones at Waitrose.

Subject: RE: BS: DARK CHEDDAR, Quite Sharp
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Feb 18 - 12:05 PM

I have an allergy to some cheeses but not too serious so I can experiment. It seems to be mainly cheddars but not many. I get a prickly heat sensation and my asthma plays up a bit. Same with some chillies but again not many. Oddest reaction I have though is with smoked mackerel. Floors me with stomach cramps for about an hour. Unsmoked mackerel is fine as are all other types of smoked fish I have tried. Must be a Gnome thing:-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: DARK CHEDDAR, Quite Sharp
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 18 - 12:17 PM

I can eat everything, and I do, except for that disgusting sour slop known as apple sauce. Mrs Steve has a few aversions, but she is seriously allergic to walnuts. I'm deprived of coriander because she hates it, and she won't eat any shell-on seafood, squid or octopus. Damn. I can't eat chocolate too late in the evening unless I want to taste it back all night and half the next day. That has been known to not stop me.

Subject: RE: BS: DARK CHEDDAR, Quite Sharp
From: Senoufou
Date: 10 Feb 18 - 02:04 PM

I love apple sauce Steve! (sorry) and I also love ANY type of cheese. Any at all. It's just this stupid vertigo (bedridden for a couple of days) which keeps me away from soft/blue varieties.
I've eaten some strange stuff in my travels, and my insides are very multi-purpose/all-terrain.
My husband's the one though. He actually crunches up those terrifying Scotch bonnets he chucks in his Spicy Horror dishes. And his eyes don't even water. He must have an asbestos mouth.

Subject: RE: BS: DARK CHEDDAR, Quite Sharp
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 10 Feb 18 - 02:20 PM

Will:Stichelton certainly travels as far as Tunbridge Wells farmers' market. I can bring you some over next time I get to the Ditchling session! ??

Subject: RE: BS: DARK CHEDDAR, Quite Sharp
From: Jos
Date: 10 Feb 18 - 04:05 PM

As a challenge to anyone who claims they would eat ANY cheese, I offer this, not only available in Sardinia incidentally. I once bought some accidentally in a remote hamlet in Spain.

http://www.ilovecheese.co.uk/casu-marzu-worlds-dangerous-cheese.html

I didn't eat it.

Subject: RE: BS: DARK CHEDDAR, Quite Sharp
From: Senoufou
Date: 10 Feb 18 - 04:19 PM

Groo! Yuk! Oh Jos, that's absolutely gross isn't it? Not only sickenly horrid, but dangerous to health as well
.
Africa has tumbu flies which lay eggs in washing hanging out to dry. The maggots can enter the skin (tumbu myiasis) and the thing burrows well in, emerging later after it pupates and then becomes a tumbu fly. My husband has had this. But in the intestines??

Okay, I review my post above. I would eat any type of cheese, except 'casu marzu'!

Subject: RE: BS: DARK CHEDDAR, Quite Sharp
From: robomatic
Date: 10 Feb 18 - 08:43 PM

We know that taste has genetic links, therefore it is not a sin if a particular 'thing' tastes bad to you but good to others. I've heard that it is documented that cilantro, tasty to some, including me, tastes soapy to others. I know how horrible licorice tasts to me, quite the reverse to others. Therefore, some cheeses might have physcally related taste results to some of us. I tend to like the runny, smelly types, limburger included. But I also like the innocuous ones that many turn their noses up at, including processed American cheese, so long as it does not come wrapped in individual plastic wrapping.

As to Cheddar man, quite intrigued by the blue eyes. How do they know?

Subject: RE: BS: DARK CHEDDAR, Quite Sharp
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 18 - 08:54 PM

Odd that we'll eat prawns, very insectiferous-looking things, yet not actual insects...

I do like a nice Stilton, hard though it is to find a decent specimen, and Cornish Blue, milder and creamy, is a thing of beauty. I'm not that keen on things like Blacksticks Blue, which I find dry and a bit pasty in texture. A very pleasant softer blue is Cashel Blue from Ireland, though, ultimately, it's a tad bland. Despite the cholesterol threat, which I tend to ignore, I've become an aficionado of triple-cream cheeses. Extra cream is included in the cheesemaking process so they are very rich and creamy in texture, fairly soft and best eaten at room temp. My favourite non-blue triple cream cheese is Vallage Triple from France. Waitrose sell it loose. I love St Agur, possibly the commonest triple-cream blue. It's a relatively recent invention but I absolutely love it, and what a feast it is with crusty bread and any juicy red wine. I first came across it on the Val De Loire car ferry from Plymouth to Santander in a force ten gale over twenty years ago. Mrs Steve stayed below deck praying for deliverance, but Sonny Jim and I decided that by far the better ploy was to eat cheese and get a bit pissed in the bar, so we did, and that's when I discovered St Agur. But blue cheese lovers should also definitely try Montagnolo d'Affine, which, despite its name, is German. I've mostly seen it sold loose in Waitrose, though Tesco and Sainsbury's have been known to stock it. It's a brilliant triple-cream cheese that will blow your mind. It's not strong but it's rich and creamy and has enough blue-cheese about it to let you know that, well, you're eating blue cheese...

By the way, Cambozola, another recent invention, is also a triple-cream blue, but I find it far too bland and commercial. Go for Montagnolo instead and you'll never look back.

Subject: RE: BS: DARK CHEDDAR, Quite Sharp
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 04:08 AM

Swaledale blue is pretty rare but very nice. It is always available at E!ijah Allen's in Hawes but precious few other emporia. I do like a bit of Shropshire blue as well and I can get that with my staff discount at Morrisons:-) Talking of which they had Cornish sardines in our local Mossers yesterday. Steve, thank any local fishermen you know for providing me with a couple of lovely meals.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: DARK CHEDDAR, Quite Sharp
From: Senoufou
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 04:15 AM

robomatic, I imagine they deduced that he had blue eyes from examining his DNA. But I'm intrigued too, because I always thought the gene for blue eyes was recessive, and brown ayes dominant. If this chap migrated across from North Africa, with his dark skin and curly hair, presumably he'd have had brown eyes? Even if he'd interbred with some blue-eyed race, the brown eyes would have been inherited, not the blue.

Subject: RE: BS: DARK CHEDDAR, Quite Sharp
From: Jos
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 05:23 AM

Even if both parents have brown eyes, they can still carry the gene for blue eyes, so their children can have blue eyes if they happen to inherit the blue-eye gene from both parents. Cheddar man's ancestors presumably carried the blue-eye gene, whatever their eye colour was (which we don't know). Blue eyes and dark skin are not unusual in North Africa, but I don't know whether or not that was the case many thousands of years ago.
The report on Cheddar man says that he would not have been able to digest milk as an adult, so he probably didn't eat cheese. That doesn't mean he didn't drink cider, though.

Subject: RE: BS: DARK CHEDDAR, Quite Sharp
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 05:41 AM

Unfortunately, the inheritance of eye colour is not a simple matter of single genes. It's likely that the number of genes involved runs into the teens. Yer man in Cheddar is actually fairly typical of Mesolithic hunter-gatherers in Western Europe in having dark skin and pale eyes.

Subject: RE: BS: DARK CHEDDAR, Quite Sharp
From: Senoufou
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 05:58 AM

Ah yes, I remember now my biology lessons (over sixty years ago, so a bit hazy)

If B is brown eyes and b is blue eyes:-

BB x Bb produces BB BB BB and Bb
Bb X Bb produces BB Bb Bb or bb. The latter would be the blue eyes.

Have I got that right? I'm nearly old enough to have met blooming Mendel personally, so I've probably forgotten more than I remember!

Subject: RE: BS: DARK CHEDDAR, Quite Sharp
From: Will Fly
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 06:12 AM

Rob - offer accepted!

Subject: RE: BS: DARK CHEDDAR, Quite Sharp
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 06:35 AM

Nope. That's not right. That's just single-gene inheritance and it doesn't apply to eye colour. Your suspicions should be aroused by the fact that there are many more eye colours/colour intensities than just "brown" and "blue." There's a whole wiki page on it that loses me within seconds!

Subject: RE: BS: DARK CHEDDAR, Quite Sharp
From: Jos
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 07:01 AM

Understanding of DNA has obviously progressed a great deal since some of us were taught the basics at school many years ago. I am happy to accept that Western European hunter-gatherers had dark skin and pale eyes. And I suspect that while some of them would have stayed in the little communities where they were born, others would have travelled to distant lands, and mixed their genes with some of the people they found there - even people of different human species such as Neanderthals.
I have often wondered whether those other species are the origins of our ancient tales about goblins and ogres and gnomes.

Subject: RE: BS: DARK CHEDDAR, Quite Sharp
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 08:04 AM

Hey! Us Gnomes are still here:-)

Little off topic but to do with the last post. Jean Auel's "Clan of the cave bear", while being a work of fiction, is an interesting tale of interaction between early people's and of their travels.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: DARK CHEDDAR, Quite Sharp
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 08:04 AM

Gotta be a bit careful here with chronology. Yer man from Cheddar is only 10,000 years old, whereas Neanderthals died out thirty thousand years earlier. It seems that Homo sapiens was the only human species around in Cheddarman's time, as now.
Interestingly, the extinction of the Neanderthals coincided almost exactly with a massive volcanic eruption in Italy, the Campanian Ignimbrite, which left deposits over an area fifteen times bigger than Britain. The volcano was situated at what is now the Campi Flegrei ("fiery fields") caldera, now mostly but not completely under water, a few miles west of Naples. There are still places in the area where there are fumaroles and boiling mud pools, notably in the Solfatara crater at Pozzuoli (been there, got the t-shirt). San Gennaro, the patron saint of Naples, was beheaded there in the third century.   There's a notion afoot among some that the eruption helped to finish off the Neanderthals. There's still a big lump of magma not far under the surface in the area, and Pozzuoli goes up and down like a yo-yo. The town endured massive panic-stricken evacuations in the early 80s when the ground heaved by over a metre in a few months, but nothing came of it - that time!

Subject: RE: BS: DARK CHEDDAR, Quite Sharp
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 08:41 AM

Speaking of Italy, I am looking forward to trying some Italian Zinfandel at a do we are going to this afternoon. It is made from grapes grown on old vines in Puglia and then aged in American oak barrels. Could be either a treat for the taste buds or a disaster!

How do I know it will be available at this do? I am taking it with me along with a bottle of rather promising Viognier. Our host is a whisky conousier as well so don't expect any sense from me this evening. Not that you ever do...

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: DARK CHEDDAR, Quite Sharp
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 10:04 AM

Zinfandel is identical with Primitivo, which is what the southern Italians usually call it. Lidl sell a glorious Primitivo for £4.99, Peuceta 2016. It's currently our favourite plonk, at least until Bude Morrisons restock the Nero d'Avola, preferably at five quid...