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English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)

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GUEST,Archie 19 Mar 24 - 11:30 AM
The Sandman 19 Mar 24 - 11:43 AM
GUEST 19 Mar 24 - 12:53 PM
GUEST,Steve Shaw 19 Mar 24 - 02:32 PM
The Sandman 19 Mar 24 - 03:17 PM
Joe Offer 19 Mar 24 - 04:20 PM
Joe Offer 19 Mar 24 - 04:51 PM
Dave the Gnome 19 Mar 24 - 05:33 PM
The Sandman 19 Mar 24 - 05:34 PM
The Sandman 19 Mar 24 - 05:38 PM
Joe Offer 19 Mar 24 - 05:45 PM
Joe Offer 19 Mar 24 - 06:30 PM
Joe Offer 19 Mar 24 - 06:35 PM
Dave the Gnome 20 Mar 24 - 04:26 AM
The Sandman 20 Mar 24 - 05:33 AM
GUEST,Steve Shaw 20 Mar 24 - 01:34 PM
Joe Offer 20 Mar 24 - 02:05 PM
GUEST,henryp 20 Mar 24 - 05:31 PM
GUEST,Steve Shaw 20 Mar 24 - 06:15 PM
GUEST,henryp 20 Mar 24 - 07:22 PM
r.padgett 21 Mar 24 - 03:56 AM
Backwoodsman 21 Mar 24 - 04:57 AM
GUEST,henryp 21 Mar 24 - 06:37 AM
GUEST,Steve Shaw. 21 Mar 24 - 10:33 AM
Backwoodsman 21 Mar 24 - 10:55 AM
Joe Offer 21 Mar 24 - 01:55 PM
GUEST,Steve Shaw 21 Mar 24 - 05:06 PM
Dave the Gnome 22 Mar 24 - 03:04 AM
Dave the Gnome 22 Mar 24 - 03:31 AM
GUEST,Phil d'Conch 22 Mar 24 - 04:28 PM
r.padgett 22 Mar 24 - 04:33 PM
GUEST,Phil d'Conch 22 Mar 24 - 04:33 PM
GUEST,Steve Shaw 22 Mar 24 - 08:15 PM
Joe Offer 22 Mar 24 - 08:41 PM
Stilly River Sage 22 Mar 24 - 09:49 PM
Captain Swing 22 Mar 24 - 10:01 PM
Dave the Gnome 23 Mar 24 - 03:48 AM
GUEST,Steve Shaw 23 Mar 24 - 05:30 AM
GUEST,Steve Shaw 23 Mar 24 - 09:45 PM
GUEST,Phil d'Conch 24 Mar 24 - 01:58 PM
GUEST,Steve Shaw 24 Mar 24 - 03:32 PM
Joe Offer 24 Mar 24 - 07:28 PM
GUEST,Steve Shaw 24 Mar 24 - 08:26 PM
GUEST,Phil d'Conch 24 Mar 24 - 10:10 PM
GUEST,Steve Shaw 25 Mar 24 - 08:06 AM
GUEST,Phil d'Conch 25 Mar 24 - 02:57 PM
GUEST,Guest 25 Mar 24 - 03:20 PM
Stilly River Sage 25 Mar 24 - 08:02 PM
GUEST,Steve Shaw 25 Mar 24 - 09:02 PM
Stilly River Sage 25 Mar 24 - 11:00 PM
The Sandman 26 Mar 24 - 12:28 AM
The Sandman 26 Mar 24 - 01:00 AM
Joe Offer 26 Mar 24 - 02:11 AM
Dave the Gnome 26 Mar 24 - 04:23 AM
The Sandman 26 Mar 24 - 04:51 AM
Dave the Gnome 26 Mar 24 - 05:06 AM
The Sandman 26 Mar 24 - 05:49 AM
Dave the Gnome 26 Mar 24 - 06:28 AM
Stilly River Sage 26 Mar 24 - 09:26 AM
GUEST,Phil d'Conch 26 Mar 24 - 02:47 PM
Howard Jones 29 Mar 24 - 10:07 AM
Dave the Gnome 29 Mar 24 - 12:46 PM
Backwoodsman 29 Mar 24 - 01:56 PM
GUEST,Captain Swing 29 Mar 24 - 04:42 PM
GUEST,one of the 87%/77% 29 Mar 24 - 05:12 PM
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GUEST,henryp 30 Mar 24 - 05:55 AM
Howard Jones 30 Mar 24 - 06:23 AM
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Subject: English folk pro - life album
From: GUEST,Archie
Date: 19 Mar 24 - 11:30 AM

Hi all,

I seem to remember a folk album from the perspective of a fetus or just generally being pro life. I think it’s English, from the revival period…

Thanks


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Subject: RE: English folk pro - life album
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Mar 24 - 11:43 AM

vin garbutt?


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Subject: RE: English folk pro - life album
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 24 - 12:53 PM

Thanks mr sandman

Exactly right. This website is unbelievable. What a strange album! “Little innocents”


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Subject: RE: English folk pro - life album
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Mar 24 - 02:32 PM

I doubt whether Vin changed as many people's minds as the people he irritated with his "pro-life" song. We had him at our folk club (long gone, sadly) at least half a dozen times and he was just about the most personable and amusing bugger on the planet. He did his song, as he was entitled to, but folk club audiences don't necessarily care for being beaten around the head with someone's strong and possibly controversial views (Dick Gaughan, here's looking at ya, baby!). We just ummed and ahhed here in Bude but I heard that the song got him into hot water at some venues. But when I think of Vin I think of a cheery, upbeat, friendly and very funny man.


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Subject: RE: English folk pro - life album
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Mar 24 - 03:17 PM

Hi Steve, outside the internet and certain forums, people show tolerance for views they might disagree with.
As you say Vin was a charming man, not a control freak, or a power maniac, he was extremely funny and is missed by many.
hope you are keeping well and look after yourself, best vwishes


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Subject: track listing: Little Innocents (Vin Garbutt)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Mar 24 - 04:20 PM

Interesting. Here's a link to Vin Garbutt's Little Innocents: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8r1LGmTsL4.

Apparently, the ten minute "Little Innocents" recording is only one cut on the album. Here's the track listing. The rest of the songs don't appear to be pro-life.
  1. The Royal Blackbird
  2. The Fear Of Imperfection/Lynda (Written-By – Vin Garbutt)
  3. Calum More (Written-By – Alan Mitchel)
  4. The Coalman (Written-By – Vin Garbutt)
  5. Leslie (Written-By – Vin Garbutt)
  6. Dormanstown Jimmy (Written-By – Vin Garbutt)
  7. If (Written-By – Rudyard Kipling)
  8. Blue Sunset (Written-By – Graeme Miles)
  9. Little Innocents (Written-By – Vin Garbutt)

Album notes & lyrics: https://www.topicrecords.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/TSDL428.pdf


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Subject: ADD: Little Innocents (Vin Garbutt)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Mar 24 - 04:51 PM

LITTLE INNOCENTS (A Civil Rights Song)
(Vin Garbutt)

In Roman days the law outlawed compassion
A word so rarely heard now with the unborn people’s plight,
Misguided ways set hearts ablaze with passion,
And Romans roared as lions gnawed their problems out of sight.
And again not quite so long ago it happened,
The Jewish Race were faced with an extermination plot,
Men swore and slammed the oven door behind them,
‘We’ve the right to prove we’ve the right to choose who’s human and who’s not.’

An unfamiliar freedom now belongs to common man,
It’s hard for us to say ‘No thanks’, we’re told, ‘You can, you can’.
We’ve even won the right that evil rich men always had,
It seems true forbidden fruit is priceless even when it’s bad.
So let’s scrutinise the package deals we’re offered,
Like anti-nuclear, save the whale, abortion on demand,
We may feel we’re so liberal and enlightened,
Like him who to defend his rights did napalm Vietnam.

One time when starving children stole, the law cut off a hand,
In desperation they’d ignore the strict laws of the land.
Oh, you wouldn’t change the law to make it legal for to steal,
No, you’d change the sensibilities of folk to make them feel.
But now those sensibilities are numbing once again,
Society has changed the law but not the hearts of men,
Yet only love and care can ease a troubled mother’s strife,
In a world that bids a doctor use a back street butcher’s knife.

Oh, the unborn child might be ill-treated, he might become a thief,
I’m told he might grow up unloved, might suffer untold grief,
Ah, but I might die of cancer in, say, ten or twenty years,
Would their misguided compassion kill me now to ease my fears?
No, they wouldn’t, ‘cos they’ve met me and society says no,
But the unborn child we’ve never met, his friendships never grown.
Oh, why must we at the friends we’ve never met point nuclear shells?
Oh, destroy the unmet friend, my friends, and we destroy ourselves.
Sure, there’s ifs and buts and possibles but they’re just not good enough,
With lives at stake you just can’t say smooth waters might turn rough.
Such ill-advice turns hearts to ice to freeze a poor girl’s hope,
We must change the world that would kill her child and steal her will to cope.
Oh, I know I’m just a man, I cannot share that mother’s fate,
And though I can’t apologise for Mother Nature’s own dictate,
I have to do my bit, I cannot bear those fascist views,
And I’ll defend the baby boy or baby girl whose death they’d choose.

When Martin Luther King said to the world, ‘I have a dream’,
That ignorance and prejudice would never more be seen,
The world stood up in praise but too few people understood
That colour, creed nor size can change the crimson of your blood.
Still they tell me we’ve the right to remain selfish if we please,
They ask me to respect that point of view and not be blind,
But I see the rights they claim have slaughtered countless Luther Kings,
And in Belfast shot a bullet in an unborn baby’s spine.
Ah, then, they say a foetus isn’t quite a baby,
But a baby isn’t quite a ten-year-old, it’s my belief,
And an adolescent isn’t quite a grown man,
But you just can’t choose to kill a man no matter what relief.
Without the right to life you couldn’t grow to make a choice,
Before you’re born you haven’t got a voice,
And innocents are silenced by good folk who live a lie,
With the might to prove they’ve the right to choose
who’ll live and who will die.
When Hitler changed the word from ‘kill’ to ‘exterminate’ the Jews,
The word was changed but it meant the same,
ANOTHER’S RIGHT TO CHOOSE.

CHORUS
Oh, cruel world, you try to make a beast of honest men,
You hand out rosy spectacles and then
You slaughter little innocents whose own lives can’t defend,
If you’d the right to choose would you do it to Jesus again?
(after last chorus:)
If you’d the right to choose would you end Luther King once again?
If you’d the right to choose would you push Steve Biko again?
If you’d the right to choose would you terminate Jesus again?
Like King Herod of old are we looking for Jesus again?

Source: https://www.topicrecords.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/TSDL428.pdf

Recording: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8r1LGmTsL4


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Subject: RE: English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Mar 24 - 05:33 PM

Fear of imperfection/Lynda and Leslie are both pro life, Joe, though not in the same way as Little Innocents.


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Subject: RE: English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Mar 24 - 05:34 PM

Polemic.
how about the rights of women to make their own choices ,do they need a Man to preach at them


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Subject: RE: English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Mar 24 - 05:38 PM

before my post is deleted, Vin was entitled to his view and i am entitled to mine, its called freedom of speech


    Your post will not be deleted, and you know it. But you like to play the martyr.
    -Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Mar 24 - 05:45 PM

Here in the U.S., the pro-life movement believes they can legislate abortion away (and they have come dangerously close to success), and they expect pro-life advocates to buy into the entire authoritarian conservative agenda. On top of that, they seem to feel justified about giving false information to support their agenda. I am appalled by the dishonesty of the American pro-life movement.

I'm a lifelong Catholic, and I believe that abortion is not a good thing. If my daughter wanted an abortion, I'd advise against it, and then I'd make clear that I would accept whatever decision she made. The "Little Innocents" song is more-or-less in alignment with my thinking. I do not believe I have the right to coerce a woman not to have an abortion, but I do think I have the right to believe whether it's good or bad. That a woman's right to make that decision. I can speak my opinion, but that's her decision. As a Planned Parenthood physician once told me, an abortion is never a cause for celebration. But sometimes, it's the only reasonable choice.

And so I call myself a "pro-life, pro-choice Catholic." And everybody hates me for that. I also call myself a "radical moderate," and people hate that, too. But that's who I am.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Mar 24 - 06:30 PM

The album notes don't give the lyrics, but here are the notes for "Lynda":
    LYNDA
    This is a song of optimism and amazing courage.
    Lynda is based on the mother of a Middlesbrough boy suffering from Spina Bifida. There are two ways we can rid this world of handicap. One is to destroy the handicap, the other is to destroy the handicapped.
    The society that the many Lyndas of this world are fighting has opted for the latter.
    I sang this song in the north of England recently and a young woman in tears said to me, ‘Don’t ever stop singing that song. I was expecting twins. They told me one of them was deformed… they took both of them…’


The recording: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLDlzgUSI9E

And as I said above, I think it's completely proper to express an opinion about abortion - but it's a travesty to legislate against this very personal opinion that must be made by the pregnant woman alone.


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Subject: RE: English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Mar 24 - 06:35 PM

The album notes don't give the lyrics, but here are the notes for "Leslie":

    LESLIE (Just a Lone Stick of Wheat)
    An all too common tragedy these days with so many people walking the streets and wondering ‘what it’s all about’. Perhaps Leslie had so much more to offer the world than his depraved industrial society required of him.
    Like Calum More Leslie was a gentleman when sober but a stranger to all when drunk. At the age of 29 Leslie died of exposure in a derelict building.

The recording: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gOWwReAX8g

Can't really see how this is an anti-abortion song, but it certainly is "pro-life."


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Subject: RE: English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Mar 24 - 04:26 AM

As I said, Joe, pro life but not in the way of Little Innocents


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Subject: RE: English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Mar 24 - 05:33 AM

no problem glad to help Archie


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Subject: RE: English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Mar 24 - 01:34 PM

The term "pro-life" is an insult to those who support women's right to choose. We are not anti-life. So-called "pro-lifers" are no more than anti-abortionists, no more, no less. That doesn't sound so good, so they prefer to insult us instead.


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Subject: RE: English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Mar 24 - 02:05 PM

I agree, Steve. Since I'm an active Catholic and a Democrat, I get a lot of that shit. The crap rarely comes from priests or nuns. It's usually Trumpist lay people who are the anti-abortion fanatics. And they're scary. I'm teaching two classes on Catholic Social Justice Teaching next month. I hope the Trumpists don't gang up on me for that. They think that stuff is "Communist." Wish me luck.


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Subject: RE: English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 20 Mar 24 - 05:31 PM

Vin Garbutt released “Dish of Glass” in 1986 on The By-pass Syndrome.

He describes an "in vitro" embryo about to be destroyed in a laboratory. It is not clear - to me, at least - whether the song is totally opposed to "in vitro" fertilisation and "test tube" babies.

Well I can’t get hold of that dish of glass
Though I’m all geared to cling to it fast
It’s my first and only home and my last
And I’m dying

Full words can be found on the pro-life site https://www.lifenews.com/2017/06/08/pro-life-folk-singer-vin-garbutt-passes-away-he-gave-a-voice-to-unborn-children/


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Subject: RE: English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Mar 24 - 06:15 PM

Vin was brave enough to share his (to me, wrong-headed) opinions. He won't have changed many minds I suppose. But I far prefer to remember his friendliness and his corset-busting humour and sense of fun. It was a privilege to know the ould bugger. That'll do me!


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Subject: RE: English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 20 Mar 24 - 07:22 PM

I'm not making a judgement.

I'm just trying to answer an enquiry!

"I seem to remember a folk album from the perspective of a fetus or just generally being pro life. I think it’s English, from the revival period…"

Well I can’t get hold of that dish of glass
Though I’m all geared to cling to it fast
It’s my first and only home and my last
And I’m dying


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Subject: RE: English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)
From: r.padgett
Date: 21 Mar 24 - 03:56 AM

I remember Vin from his annual appearances at Saltburn ff ~ he was I believe a Catholic lad of Irish extraction growing up and going to school with his mate Pete Betts, another singer songwriter of note

I will not get involved in controversial issues ~ let choice and reason prevail ~I am not a Catholic

Ray


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Subject: RE: English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Mar 24 - 04:57 AM

I’m very proud that Vin recorded a song which a band-mate and I co-wrote. He was a lovely man, the consummate professional, a true entertainer and writer - those things should be his legacy, and they are the things I will always remember him for.

I find attempts to discredit him for his personal, moral viewpoints distasteful. Let he who is without sin, etc…..


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Subject: RE: English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 21 Mar 24 - 06:37 AM

Joe, Vin had another anti-abortion song, The Secret, but I can't find the words.

There is a video on line https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYKtIy-1Xs4 but it isn't easy to penetrate Vin's accent.

Finally, Vin did a concert in Borneo, where he introduced himself as the Wild Man of Middlesbrough.


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Subject: RE: English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw.
Date: 21 Mar 24 - 10:33 AM

Well, he did put himself out there and he did use his platform to express controversial opinions, leaving himself open to criticism by those who neither shared his views nor had the same opportunities to publicly put the counter-arguments. He was brave enough to accept the risk of being discredited from that point of view. I neither shared his views on abortion nor had a platform to disagree with him in front of audiences, but please note my first, measured post to this thread. He was an upbeat, cheery, friendly and funny man, he sang anti-abortionist lyrics and there's nothing distasteful about bringing up both those sides of his character. I'm an ardent supporter of women's right to choose, I think he was completely wrong about that and I think he took advantage of his public position to make his case. But that was a small part of him to my mind, and it wouldn't be an exaggeration to say that I loved him to bits on each of the numerous occasions I went to his gigs and enjoyed the banter.


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Subject: RE: English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Mar 24 - 10:55 AM

My comment wasn't aimed at you Steve - my views are very much the same as yours - but on morality issues I believe we are all entitled to our own views. I would rather remember the impact he had on our music and the great entertainer he was than get a wedgie over his anti-abortion stance.

In other words, I think we agree! ;-)


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Subject: RE: English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Mar 24 - 01:55 PM

But in the U.S. pro-life movement, the tone is coercive. They want laws to prohibit abortion, and they won't stop at anything less. Garbutt expresses his opinion of abortion without attacking - or at least I haven't seen him in attack mode.


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Subject: RE: English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Mar 24 - 05:06 PM

That's right. He found a way of expressing his views in a non-combative and non-pressurising mode. However, in common with most other "pro-life" advocates, he chose to appeal to emotion rather than deal with the hard realities that girls and women can face if their pregnancy is unwanted. Not exactly a feminist then.

He died in 2017, by the way.


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Subject: RE: English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Mar 24 - 03:04 AM

Yet if you listen to Filipino Maid or Calum More he champion's some women's rights. As with most people, nothing is black or white and Vin was probably more complex than most. As has been said, he was a lovely man with a great talent. I find his "When the tide turns" very interesting. Lovely version on the Vin Garbutt songbook if anyone wants to listen. That album is certainly more representative of his work than Little Innocents.


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Subject: RE: English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Mar 24 - 03:31 AM

When the tide turn For anyone who has not heard it :-)


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Subject: RE: English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 22 Mar 24 - 04:28 PM

Oy… this thread.

"LITTLE INNOCENTS (A Civil Rights Song)
‘On Sunday he was our foetus
On Monday our son did greet us,
For the rest of his life, may we help him in strife,
And please God, the world won’t defeat us.’

The above verse was written as part of the birth announcement for the arrival of our son Tim. The Cleveland newspaper Evening Gazette refused to print it! – ‘because it made some of the girls in the office feel sick…’ After contacting the editor I was told: ‘This is a family newspaper’!

When David Steele’s 1967 abortion law was passed, it seems that WE, society, turned our backs on the very people that this law was designed to help, namely those women who, through desperation, were forced into risking their lives at the hands of the back-street abortionist. We could have helped those women and their babies but sadly our utilitarian society found it more cost-effective to legalese their desperation. Just ten years later and the snowball is still rolling: Pulse. 19 March 1977. Dr Tom Mayer, a GP:
‘… any patient who is not terminated will subsequently require antenatal care, attention during confinement and postnatal follow-up. All the time taken in these procedures is a factor many times that required for a termination. Therefore, all that is needed in order to create sufficient beds for termination is to convert a few antenatal beds and a delivery theatre at present in use on obstetric units for abortion work.’

I believe that something has gone terribly wrong. What was always a tragic exception is becoming an even more tragic norm.

At the time of writing, my wife Pat is five months pregnant, our third child is jumping about busily in her womb. In theory our child is already protected bylaw; in practice, however, this is not so. A local doctor has already offered Pat an abortion should she ‘need' one.

If Pat and I were forced, by whatever desperation, into even contemplating the terminating of our child's life, then it is our human right to be helped out of that desperation and not ‘helped’ along with it. It is our child’s human right to be protected from the consequences of our desperation!

In common with every other human in this world, my wife and I were once foetuses. We were not inferior humans then, we are not inferior humans now, and our child is inferior to no man. WE DEMAND EQUAL RIGHTS FOR OUR CHILD, whether he/she be ‘normal' or handicapped. We wish to have nothing whatsoever to do with any Master Race ideology. Our child is equal, along with each and every other child that is awaiting silently for the next stage in the ongoing process of life, in what should be the safest place on earth!

First, may I apologise to my many good friends and to all others who have been through the trauma of abortion and may be upset by my views as expressed in some of these notes and in the songs Little Innocents and Lynda. My intention is not to offend but to inform those unaware of what is, to my mind, the grossest excess of our materialistic ‘throw-away' society.

This album is dedicated to the mothers of Britain’s 2,000,000 ‘Desaparecidos’."
[Liner notes, Vin Garbutt, Little Innocents, Topic TSDL428, 1983]


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Subject: ADD: When the Tide Turns (Vin Garbutt)
From: r.padgett
Date: 22 Mar 24 - 04:33 PM

As recorded by Vin Garbutt on "The Vin Garbutt Songbook, Vol. 1" (2003)

WHEN THE TIDE TURNS
(Vin Garbutt)

When Columbus set sail, sophisticated men wailed,
Calling him a fool saying, "You'll topple over."
The top brains of his day said, "That can't be the way.
You know the world is flat. Think on that, foolish rover."

Now we gaze to the stars knowing they're not so far
As America was to Mr Columbus,
But the brains of today tell us that's not the way.
They say to concentrate on reducing our numbers.

CHORUS: {But/And} when the tide turns, a black priest will come.
When the tide turns to England, {our/my} home;
When the tide turns, a new rising sun
Like a bright flame will burn, when the tide turns.

Sophistication can't kill nations quite as much as starvation.
See it in the eyes; hear the cries of the West's depressed.
For the weak we've no room. Now the womb is a tomb.
Tomorrow's world must die if the mighty say it's for best.

Oh, there once was a time. Oh, there once was a time
When these people of mine coexisted, one with the fauna and fields,
Where Mother Nature gives breath to the soil with each death.
Her simple symbiosis produces her yield.

Human life like the grass in one season does pass.
Fall and feed the soil as our seeds feed tomorrow.
Every man, every beast host and share the same feast,
Giving back the earth quite as much as we borrow.

But as man's chart unfurled, his materialist world
Has turned away from Nature's advice and God's wonder,
And with our hands in Earth's till, starving millions we kill,
Naively denying our part in the plunder.

But the brains of today, they shall not have their way.
Tomorrow's world belongs to the weak and the needing,
For the meek still give birth and inherit this earth
While we, now used to greed, overfeed and cease breeding.

These are the words to "When the tide turns" to see when listening to the above clip

Yes Vin could be difficult to follow, but his playing and singing are brilliant ~ a really star entertainer and honest thinking man and folk singer of distinction

Ray


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Subject: RE: English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 22 Mar 24 - 04:33 PM

Just fwiw:

Conchy Apostleship of the Sea version: Anti-contraception, -abortion, -euthanasia, -suicide, -execution, -war &c&c&c are all “Pro-Life”… itself coming from “Right to Life” sloganeering. “Pro-Choice” was the other side's later re-branding of its own “Pro-Abortion” message in response to the perceived marketing successes of their political/moral “others.”

The lyrics, though dated, are still about right for most Americans I speak with on the subject(s.) But most of them are dealing with real world medical policy and procedure. “Pro” or “Anti” anything have been red flags there, and cause for removal from the discussion, for all of this century.


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Subject: RE: English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Mar 24 - 08:15 PM

To be very clear. And I think that Joe Offer might heartily agree: there is not a caring, thinking person on this planet who is "pro-abortion." There are plenty of people who support a woman's right to choose what she does with her body. Who lament the fact that we are bloody useless at doing what we should be doing to radically improve education, for girls and boys, about sex and relationships. About providing free contraception and family planning support to women. About developing respect for both yourself and your partners. About how to resist the baleful influence of social media. About how to fight ignorance and inequality in our societies.   About how we need to stop religions from imposing their fake morality when it comes to the kind of sexual activity that is so widespread among their own kind. I don't want to hear anti-abortionist shit. I want to hear how we can improve our society in ways that would ensure that abortion would be reduced to vanishingly small numbers, done without repressive laws and without the persecution of our women.


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Subject: RE: English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Mar 24 - 08:41 PM

Yep, Steve, I agree 100%. I wish my fellow Catholics would stop attacking our Catholic President and our Catholic former Speaker of the House.
I know Biden is getting a lot of flak right now because of Gaza, but I think he's working on a more permanent solution to this travesty. There really needs to be an independent Palestinian state, and Israel has to continue to exist.
But I digress....
Vin Garbutt's songs are more anti-abortion than I feel comfortable with, but at least he does not seem to be promoting American-style legislation against a woman's right to choose what to do about her pregnancy.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 Mar 24 - 09:49 PM

This is turning into a BS thread . . . it's one thing to discuss the song itself, it's another to drill down into the subject matter politics.


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Subject: RE: English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)
From: Captain Swing
Date: 22 Mar 24 - 10:01 PM

Joe and Steve, I speak as an ex Catholic, now atheist, and also a long-time fan of Vin. Thank you for your balanced and pragmatic contributions to this thread (I wish Mudcat had a 'like' button). Of all the debates on civil morality, abortion must be one of the most nuanced and in need of the most gentle handling. Such a pity that some exploit it as a political football.


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Subject: RE: English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Mar 24 - 03:48 AM

And as an ex Catholic brought up in Orthodoxy, I agree with the last few posts too! Apart from the comment about BS. We cannot discuss this album without bringing the controversial subject matter into it.


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Subject: RE: English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Mar 24 - 05:30 AM

And thank you, Captain! :-)


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Subject: RE: English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Mar 24 - 09:45 PM

Well Joe has probably worked out that, though I regard meself to be an atheist, I'm still, sort of, a Catholic. I'm very happy to think that my upbringing is impossible to shake off, and why would I want to do that anyway. In 1976 Mrs Steve and I argued face to face with Bishop Victor Guazzelli that we shouldn't be forced to raise our future children as Catholics if we didn't want to (Mrs Steve is not a Catholic) - and he agreed, after some very tough talking, and gave us the dispensation. We then married in the Catholic Church. Maybe I wouldn't go down such a path today, but hey ho. I wonder what such a free-thinking man as the rather fearsome Bishop Victor would have thought of our current debate. I have a sneaky feeling that he would have sided with me and Joe!

Bishop Victor, champion of the poor in London's East End. Well worth a google! He'd make a damn sight better saint than John-Paul II for sure!


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Subject: RE: English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 24 Mar 24 - 01:58 PM

The original Hippocratic Oath used the old gods.

The problem with leaving any use of the A-word in political marketing/sloganeering is reminding people of those hundred million+ indeterminate something/someones per year for whom/which abortion is a death penalty. That is Garbutt's #1 issue.

The dividing line in medicine is neither religion nor voter registration. It is non/elective and no different for any other necessary procedure. Purely elective Hollywood boob job$ &c are a whole different kind of back & front office medicine altogether. Post-mastectomy, it's just another Wednesday afternoon at the hospital.

So, when all the politics, religion & choices have been spoken and signs waved, the “Pro-Choice” will require the services of a decidedly unapologetic elective “Pro-Abortion” provider. There were never enough of those, not in 1983 or 2023. That science/tech has long since moved on to more shareholder value friendly big-pharma and little pills.


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Subject: RE: English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Mar 24 - 03:32 PM

Well, Phil, despite all that we can still quietly forgive the God that, er, permits millions of miscarriages (abortions in all but name) and foetuses that are going to end up being severely disabled children. These are things that Vin, God-fearing man that he was, didn't really address as far as I know in his songs. In my case there are more than several instances of these things in my own life, so close as to be quite raw. And, as I said, I have never met anyone who is "pro-choice" who is pro-abortion. I do have a big problem with MALE anti-abortionists who would like to dictate how women should control their bodies...

Maybe it's a bit like most wars: no good guys in sight but plenty of victims...


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Subject: RE: English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Mar 24 - 07:28 PM

Still, I think that Steve and Vin and I and a few others in this thread could have a very fruitful discussion of this, and still remain friends. And others, perhaps not.

Back when the BS section was created, the intention was stated (and approved by Max) that we did not want a hard-and-fast line between Music and non-music threads, and that it was perfectly ok to discuss related non-music things in a thread that's in the Music section, and music things in a thread that's in the BS section. At the time, the BS threads had far more posts than the Music threads, so the BS thread were always at the Forum Menu list, and the Music threads were at the bottom. We wanted to promote music discussion and enforce the idea that Mudcat is primarily a music forum, so we artificially divided the two and rigged it so that the music discussions were always at the top of the list. But it was never the idea to make a rigid division between music and non-music discussions. Mudcat is open to all subjects that folk music people might be interested in, and the intention is to promote free discussion. -Joe-


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Subject: RE: English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Mar 24 - 08:26 PM

Cheers for that measured view, Joe. I've had a good few spats with you down the years (I can prove, e.g., that you threatened to ban me in 2016!) but that's more a reflection of our passionate views - sometimes conflicting but often not - than anything else, and it's good that we can express them. Can one be an atheist Catholic? Am I that man??   ;-)


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Subject: RE: English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 24 Mar 24 - 10:10 PM

Steve: God that, er, permits millions of miscarriages (abortions in all but name)...
Only in the politics of religion. Medicine = entirely different policies, procedures & employees. The lyrics & liner notes above are (mostly) about medicine. 'God' is about everything that ever was, is and will be. Believe it... or not.

Joe: Vin's thoughts on your thoughts on his lyrics? The artist now resides in the Grand Perhaps. If he replies, it means we are all dead. Of that much we can be certain enough.


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Subject: RE: English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Mar 24 - 08:06 AM

That's like saying that God works in mysterious ways, which is like saying that God can never be wrong. He can be cruel, unjust or vengeful (according to the ways we humans define those things), but we can't hold him to account because we don't understand and it's just the way it is. I wonder if Vin, as a Christian, had much to say about natural abortions (i.e., miscarriages) and how much crueller they are than elective abortions, as the women who lose their foetuses in that way dearly wanted those children.

By the way, I neither believe it nor don't believe it.


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Subject: RE: English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 25 Mar 24 - 02:57 PM

That's like saying that God works in mysterious ways,
Nope, it don't.

Lord of Lords; Host of Hosts; King of Kings; all knowing; all seeing, omnipresent &c&c&c. Believe "it" or don't believe "it" ... the "it" never changes all that much.

If one goes that route, pro or con, then 'God' was performing your 'natural abortions' on millions of generations of dinosaur; more hundreds of millions of years before 'God' ever got around to humans and writing. And 'God' will still be carrying on billions of years hence. And so what? Dinos do not do elective. And Vin Garbutt lyrics are not about "it."

What the song lyrics, liner notes and album dedication all object to are the values, or lack thereof, reflected in the written prenatal care policies & procedures his doctor was working to. "Pro-choice" simply can't risk the conversation even going in there. Hence, all the tortured, pseudo-medical gloassary and thread drift.

Trust and believe 'God' is not on anybody's circulation list for the loftiest medical policy or lowest order calibration log/work instruction.


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Subject: RE: English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 25 Mar 24 - 03:20 PM

Amen


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Subject: RE: English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Mar 24 - 08:02 PM

had much to say about natural abortions (i.e., miscarriages) and how much crueller they are than elective abortions, as the women who lose their foetuses in that way dearly wanted those children.

There is just so much wrong with that, and to unpack it requires a lot more content than needs to be in a music thread. Suffice to say that abortion is a medical procedure and many wanted pregnancies must resolve that way when they are not viable and the life of the mother is at risk. But then, this thread isn't about the real world, participants (save one) are all old men discussing women's business, and that song is pretty awful, packed full of misinformation, logical fallacies, and specious charges against the motives of people who make personal medical decisions (apparently without his say so.)


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Subject: RE: English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Mar 24 - 09:02 PM

So much wrong with it, but you didn't say what. Most of the "old men" here are actually saying that Vin's song is wrong-headed and that we support the right of women to make their choices NOT men's business. Don't you get that, Maggie? You seem to want to excoriate us for discussing it at all, then try to shut the conversation down. That is completely against the spirit of this thread.


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Subject: RE: English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Mar 24 - 11:00 PM

Focus on what I commented on - the remark about "natural abortions" - call them miscarriages. I reject alluding to some abortions are better than others, or the attempt to characterize the pregnancies as wanted or not - that is simply none of your business. And the no one is "pro abortion" nonsense. I am pro-abortion because it is a medical procedure that needs to be available and the reasons are no one's business except that of the pregnant person. And you are all old men discussing women's business. I wasn't wrong about that. (Yes I saw that many of you don't agree with the song.)

I'm also the only one in this discussion who has had an abortion.

The song is posted here for anyone who wants to use it. That's a matter of fact. It is my opinion that it is a dreadful song.


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Subject: RE: English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Mar 24 - 12:28 AM

Disagreeing with the sentiments of a song does not necesarrily mean it is a poorly written song .
I disagree with the songs sentiments, but i would not say it was a poorly written song, or that it was dreadful.
Stilly River Sage, please CLARIFY why the song is dreadful, where is is poorly written.
Here ismy opinion where the song detioriorates
"With the might to prove they’ve the right to choose
who’ll live and who will die.
When Hitler changed the word from ‘kill’ to ‘exterminate’ the Jews,
The word was changed but it meant the same,
ANOTHER’S RIGHT TO CHOOSE."

and here to make a comparison with the death of Martin Luther King, is like comparing artichokes with grapefruit.
"If you’d the right to choose would you end Luther King once again?
If you’d the right to choose would you push Steve Biko again?
If you’d the right to choose would you terminate Jesus again?
Like King Herod of old are we looking for Jesus again?


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Subject: RE: English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Mar 24 - 01:00 AM

it is poorly written because it is hyperbole


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Subject: RE: English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Mar 24 - 02:11 AM

I don't agree with the position expressed in the "Little Innocents" song, but I look on it as an effective expression of a valid point of view that I disagree with. I have seen all sorts of negative comments here through the years about Vin Garbutt. I'm glad to see his songs finally posted here so I can see for myself. I disagree with what he's saying, but he's not as objectionable as the American pro-life folks. And I'm glad that much of Vin Garbutt's work wasn't focused on this one issue.

Stilly, we old men vote. You need us on your side. Don't tell us we shouldn't discuss this issue.


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Subject: RE: English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Mar 24 - 04:23 AM

I, as stated earlier, disagree with the sentiment but cannot agree that it is poorly written. The language used is suitably emotive for the personal feelings Vin is trying to express.


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Subject: RE: English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Mar 24 - 04:51 AM

it depends what your reason is for writing the song,
if you want to convince somebody to your point of view,being aggressive, using emotive language, comparing someone to Hitler is not the way to do it.
The song has not changed your view has it Dave?,so has it failed as a song?


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Subject: RE: English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Mar 24 - 05:06 AM

Vin's reasons for writing the song are well documented, including this line from the sleeve notes

"My intention is not to offend but to inform those unaware of what is, to my mind, the grossest excess of our materialistic ‘throw-away' society"

The song, like most arguments on here, will never change anyones mind. It is not meant to be a logical argument but it is a strong statement of opinion (note "to my mind") and in that it works very well. So, no, it has not failed as a song


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Subject: RE: English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Mar 24 - 05:49 AM

well, we have to agree to disagree,imo it has nothing to do with consumerism or a throw away materialistic society,
i


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Subject: RE: English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Mar 24 - 06:28 AM

Sorry, Dick, but those were Vin's owm words and I think he knows what it was about better than anyone else!


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Subject: RE: English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 Mar 24 - 09:26 AM

I didn't say don't discuss it, I merely pointed out WHO is discussing it. I didn't say it's badly written, I said it's dreadful.


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Subject: RE: English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 26 Mar 24 - 02:47 PM

Four function calculator and a calendar... beats prose, scripture, song lyrics & social media 'likes'... and anything else you got... no contest.

There is no 'pro-choice' or elective in the third tri. Pat Garbutt was in her fifth month. Vin Garbutt's complaint was is an in-policy "last chance for choice" the doctor was (and still is) required to give. One month hence, Vin & Pat's little bundle of 'something' became a legal "person" with the "civil rights" in his song's sub-title... no social media likes, politics or 'God' required.

In my world, nobody can be relied upon to recognize 'God' if 'He' slapped them on all four cheeks. The Lord of Lords gets a wristband and everybody with an assigned task gets a scanner.


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Subject: RE: English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)
From: Howard Jones
Date: 29 Mar 24 - 10:07 AM

It should perhaps be pointed out that in the UK abortion is far less of a political issue than in the US. A recent opinion poll showed that 87% of the public agreed that abortion should be permitted, and 77% think that protests in the immediate vicinity of clinics should be banned. When the matter has been discussed in Parliament it has always been a 'free vote', where MPs vote according to their own views rather than as their party instructs them.

This is not only a woman's issue, it is something which affects society as a whole. However men should be conscious that the stakes for them and for women are of course very different.

The UK poll found that attitudes among men and women here are identical on the main question of whether abortion should be permitted.

Folk song is often used to express a political or social message. Often these are more or less aligned with the views of the audience and the performer is taking little risk in singing them. Most of Vin's many social commentary songs were uncontroversial to a typically mainly left-ish folk audience, but this was something he felt strongly about and he had the courage to express a point of view which he knew would probably be unpopular with many of his audience. I doubt he expected to change minds, just to ask people to think about it from a different perspective.

Although his views on abortion affected his career and alienated him from parts of the folk media and some of the public, he remained a very popular and much-loved performer and his unexpected death came as a great shock to many. He is still widely missed. I remember him most fondly for his lengthy and hilarious introductions.


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Subject: RE: English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Mar 24 - 12:46 PM

Spot on and well said, Howard.


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Subject: RE: English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Mar 24 - 01:56 PM

Absolutely right on the button, Howard - well said!


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Subject: RE: English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 29 Mar 24 - 04:42 PM

Couldn't agree more Howard!


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Subject: RE: English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)
From: GUEST,one of the 87%/77%
Date: 29 Mar 24 - 05:12 PM

Well said Howard.

It wasn't until I heard Little Innocents that I realised why my female folkie friends were so enraged by such an enjoyable performer.

And just to show others are following the discussion.


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Subject: RE: English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)
From: GUEST,EM
Date: 29 Mar 24 - 05:49 PM

I believe even the much-adored Leonard Cohen got a lot of kick back for his lines that sound abortion-critical in "Diamonds in the Mine" and "The Future".


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Subject: RE: English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 30 Mar 24 - 05:55 AM

Howard Jones; It should perhaps be pointed out that in the UK abortion is far less of a political issue than in the US.

Abortion is still very much a political issue in Northern Ireland, where the Unionist parties strongly oppose any liberal changes to abortion legislation. Amnesty International reports;

Nearly every single person Amnesty International spoke to for this report mentioned anti-abortion activists as a significant issue and barrier to accessing abortion services. Various forms of intimidation and threatening behaviour are displayed towards people seeking abortion, those providing abortion, and those supporting abortion rights in Northern Ireland. Methods of intimidation and threatening behaviour include verbal intimidation and physically threatening behaviour, trolling, and threats by text messages. Intimidation by anti-abortion activists outside clinics and hospitals has long been part of anti-abortion activities in Northern Ireland. This harmful behaviour takes a significant toll on people seeking abortion services and on healthcare providers, as well as other patients and staff entering those buildings.

In 2022, the Northern Ireland Assembly passed The Abortion Services (Safe Access Zones) Act to create safe access zones around premises where abortions are provided. The Act aimed to implement the UK’s legal obligation, stemming from the CEDAW inquiry report, to prevent harassment outside abortion clinics. It is the first piece of legislation passed of its kind in the UK. The bill became law on 6 February 2023 and the zones became enforceable on 7 May 2023. As of August 2023, the zones have not been implemented and people entering healthcare facilities continue to be harassed, although the Department of Health has stated zones will be in place by the end of September 2023.

However, the balance of power is changing. Last month, assembly members gathered at Stormont after a two year absence.

2022 Northern Ireland Assembly election; Sinn Féin became the largest party, marking the first time an Irish nationalist/republican party won the most seats in an assembly election in Northern Ireland, and has the right to nominate Northern Ireland's first nationalist First Minister. The unionists won two more seats than nationalists - 37 seats to 35 - and a marginally higher share of the vote. Alliance made large gains, as the only party to gain seats at the election, overtaking the UUP and the SDLP to become the third-largest party in the Assembly. wikipedia

The Guardian Friday 29 March; Sir Jeffrey Donaldson has resigned as leader of the Democratic Unionist party after being charged with sexual offences, throwing Northern Irish politics into turmoil. Donaldson had served three years as DUP leader and recently bolstered his authority by agreeing a deal with Downing Street that revived the Stormont executive and assembly.

In 2018, the Republic of Ireland voted to remove the constitutional ban on abortion by a two-thirds majority.


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Subject: RE: English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)
From: Howard Jones
Date: 30 Mar 24 - 06:23 AM

NenryP: A fair point. To me, and probably to most of the rest of the UK, the peculiarities and grudges of Northern Ireland politics are a mystery. You are quite right that the issue is not settled there. However Vin was from Teesside, in mainland Britain, and the controversy around his pro-life songs was mainly from mainland audiences and media. I have no idea how he was received in Northern Ireland.


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Subject: RE: English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 30 Mar 24 - 07:43 AM

Northern Ireland politics are particularly complicated and unpredictable! The Westminster Government has imposed legislation upon Northern Ireland for the provision of abortion services.

BBC News timeline; https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-politics-56041849
June 2020; The NI Assembly backs a non-binding motion brought by the DUP rejecting the changes to NI's abortion laws.
February 2021; DUP MLA Paul Givan proposes a new law to prevent abortions being carried out in Northern Ireland in cases of non-fatal disabilities.
March 2021; The Westminster government signals its intention to give NI Secretary Brandon Lewis new powers to compel Stormont to implement abortion laws.
February 2022; A High Court judge held that Mr Lewis was compelled to take the step after a United Nations body found in 2018 the UK had breached the rights of women in Northern Ireland by limiting access to abortions.
May 2022; Stormont's Department of Health is told that it must start setting up a fully-funded abortion service for Northern Ireland "within days to weeks" by Northern Ireland Secretary Brandon Lewis. Mr Lewis was acting under new powers to remove the need for the executive to approve plans first. The UK government had indicated it would itself act on abortion services after the Stormont assembly election, if an executive was not restored by then. Mr Lewis said he had a "legal and moral duty" to intervene due to the lack of progress.

The DUP blocked the restoration of Stormont's power-sharing institutions in 2022 in protest against post-Brexit trade checks between Northern Ireland and Great Britain. Assembly meetings only resumed in February 2024.

The Guardian now paints a completely different picture! https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/21/how-northern-ireland-came-to-lead-the-uk-on-abortion
Siege days are over: how Northern Ireland came to lead the UK on abortion. The chilling atmosphere of pickets and protests at clinics has given way to a new ‘gold standard’ of care.
Rory Carroll Ireland correspondent Thu 21 Mar 2024


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Subject: RE: English pro-life album: Little Innocents (Garbutt)
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Mar 24 - 12:51 PM

Yep, I saw it meself, chaps. ;-)

Steve is extremely slow to take a hint. When you abuse not one but TWO moderators in the same thread, your presence is no longer welcome. Stop poking the bear, and consider yourself lucky every single post on Mudcat isn't deleted. This thread is temporarily closed. ---mudelf


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Mudcat time: 13 April 11:49 AM EDT

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