BS: Help me! Columbine Thread

Subject: Help me! Colunbine Thread
From: annamill
Date: 26 Apr 00 - 10:31 PM

I just saw the feelings of the parents of the students of Culenbine(SP)! The extremly intelligent most highly educated psycology(SP) expert says this is terrible! She says we will be DEsensitized! Right! I was DEsentized to Kent State! I was DEsensitized to the Mailai(SP) Murders! WRONG!! The tapes (even with the music) should be spread as much as possible!! PAIN! is exposed.

Now, I need to get in touch with these parents. I want to tell them the tapes hurt them...and they hurt us! Spread the pain!! Don't let it happen again!!

Can anyone help me get their e-mail addresses. I will be my normal sensitive self to their pain and express my sorrow to their loss, but explain the need to let others know this pain!

Love, annap

Subject: RE: BS: Help me! Colunbine Thread
From: wysiwyg
Date: 26 Apr 00 - 10:36 PM

annap,

I would like to understand what you are saying here... can you PM me?

~Susan~

Subject: RE: BS: Help me! Colunbine Thread
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Apr 00 - 10:39 PM

Annap, me, too, what is this about? I've missed something? Thanks, darlin'.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Help me! Colunbine Thread
From: Amergin
Date: 26 Apr 00 - 10:42 PM

I would like to know what this is about too.

Subject: RE: BS: Help me! Colunbine Thread
From: annamill
Date: 26 Apr 00 - 10:45 PM

It's real simple Susan. How do you feel when youn see the tapes? Doesn't it hurt you? Do you feel desensitized? I know I don't. I feel pain for the loss of beautiful young life.. the pain of a parent who has lost a child..

but then again, I'm a very empathetic person.

The authors of this tape were trying to let us see this pain, I think..I feel!

I don't know... I think we should all know..

Love, annap

Subject: RE: BS: Help me! Colunbine Thread
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Apr 00 - 10:48 PM

Annap, what tape? Just in case you are trying to find the thread from last year, it is here. Still not sure what you are referring to, sorry.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Help me! Colunbine Thread
From: annamill
Date: 26 Apr 00 - 10:56 PM

On the NEWS (NORTH, EAST, WEST, SOUTH..just in case you don't no what NEWS stand for) the are announcing the release of pictures of tapes of pictures of the killings with background music. They say it's terrible, but I think we should be exposed as much as possible to feel the pain. Seeing even the small shots hurt and thats what we need!

Love, annap

Subject: RE: BS: Help me! Colunbine Thread
From: Sorcha
Date: 26 Apr 00 - 10:58 PM

This is the anniverary of the Columbine tragedy....hard to beleive that a year has gone by.....sorry anna, I have no addresses,and these people may want their privacy now, but I know what you mean, and what you are feeling.

Subject: RE: BS: Help me! Colunbine Thread
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Apr 00 - 11:07 PM

The anniversary was the 20th and, just because I don't watch television news is no reason to be sarcastic, please. I was trying to be helpful.

Personally, I wouldn't get anything out of it except a sicker heart; those kind of things go immediately to my heart, physically, and I have to be very careful about watching such things. I DO understand, if it doesn't seem like it, please go to the Mudcat Songbook and listen/read my song written that day, one year ago, "Not My Colorado."

Where are these videos going to be shown? If I were one of the parents, I am afraid it would just cause more pain, upon pain, to have them viewed over and over. What is the background music for; to soften it? Make it more palatable? I'd really like to know the motivations of it all.

Thank you,

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Help me! Colunbine Thread
From: Amergin
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 12:59 AM

Personally, Annap, I have no reason to see this tape. If I wanted to go see a video that showed people really dying, I would watch something about the holocaust. Besides, these poor parents have had enough crows swooping down on them without you getting in on the action. BTW that little crack you said to Kat about her not knowing what news stands for was just bloody well rude and I think you owe the girl an apology.

Amergin

Subject: RE: BS: Help me! Colunbine Thread
From: wysiwyg
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 01:21 AM

annap,

Thank you for letting us all know more about the thing that was concerning you. It is indeed a painful subject. I see you have friends here who care what hurts you. I don't know you, but I care too.

I see deep pain nearly every day. (I run a small Red Cross chapter and I am up to my soul in human suffering on a regular basis. As are my Red Cross counterparts in Littleton, Colorado.) To work with, observe, or learn about such pain is itself deeply painful to human beings; and this pain must be addressed if we are to keep our full humanity functioning. And without that, how do we make anything better?

I don't worry so much about being desensitized. I have tools that help me avoid that. I do worry, though, about being paralyzed rather than healed.

I find that there are lots of means of dealing with hurts. One way is to relive them, and this can be very valuable. Me, I prefer, when possible, to weep the tears that release joy into the grief.... to focus so strongly on goodness that it wrings cleansing tears right out of my eyes and my heart. It isn't the same as only seeing what is good and pretending everything is good-- but to put one's attention intensely on the pure power of good can be a powerful tool in prying up the hurts from what is very, very bad. I call it good-news crying. The easiest example is the tears we shed at weddings. Is it because there is a tragedy unfolding at the wedding? No, it is the irresistable restoration of hope that true love may be real after all.

In fact, I spent much of today on just that-- letting the good of the present shine into the dark corners of old abuse memories as I lay on the doctor's table. It was very difficult... The memories were there, and the pain was alive as though more than 40 years had not passed. But the key to using these tears redemptively-- for healing wasted years-- was choosing to accept the memories while fixing my attention firmly on the warmth of my husband's hand. And fixed as well upon the knowledge, which I had intentionally dwelt upon all day, that my life now is pretty wonderful and full of dear friends and allies.

And after such release (and believe me, the tears were wrackingly deep), instead of being sunk in the memories, I am securely rooted in my life and loves-- where I can continue to make the small differences that can make all the difference in the world.

So I would ask you, annap, as you grieve this tragedy, about the dear and strong and marvelous young people you know 'round about you. What is their honor and how glorious is it to see them growing into their lives? How much good pours into the world because they are in it? How much does it matter that they are treated well? What do you see that is brave and loving and courageous, as you look about this world? How precious is life itself?

~Susan~

Subject: RE: BS: Help me! Colunbine Thread
From: The Beanster
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 01:29 AM

annap,

Are you talking about the "training video" made by the fire dept. in that Colorado town? They showed a clip of it on Good Morning, America this morning and although they spared showing us this specific part, they said there is some footage shot in the library where pools of blood can be seen.

I understand your emotionality about this horrible crime but I disagree with you that this tape should be seen. Unfortunately, I think we're already desensitized so I don't consider that the issue. The thing is, I can't see where any benefit would come from airing this ghoulish video--to the loved ones of the victims or any of us strangers. Whether it is shown widely or not has nothing to do with if/when this kind of thing will happen again--rest assured, it (or something just as tragic, or worse) WILL happen again. Airing this video won't prevent that. I think these parents and family members should be left alone. This is not a news story to them, it's very personal--they don't need to be part of a cause unless they choose to be.

It's obvious that your intentions are good, but maybe you could redirect your energy in a different way, away from these particular people and more toward a community effort in your own area. It's obvious you have strong feelings and a strong motivation to help which shouldn't be wasted.

Just my 2 cents...

Subject: RE: BS: Help me! Colunbine Thread
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 03:23 AM

Annap-

Here is the address for the Denver Post's ongoing archive-- they have all of their articles, as well as links to sites, including memorials and message boards for the community-- Some of the articles have contact info on the survivors groups and the family support groups--Denver Post Columbine Tragedy Archive

I went out to the school about a week after the shootings to see what I could see, and people tended to respond to me like they are responding to you--

I think that people should look as closely as the need to, in order to understand--and I think that if they feel moved to say something or do something, that they should do that, as well--I hope you find what you need--

Subject: RE: BS: Help me! Colunbine Thread
From: annamill
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 08:34 AM

Kat, Kat!! We've been talking to each other for about a year. Do you think I would say anything to flame you? I was being funny (though at the time I wasn't feeling funny). Maybe that's why it didn't come out funny. When I found out that NEWS stood for North, East, West, South, I thought that was pretty clever. I was just passing on a bit of knowledge. I'm sorry it came out wrong. I know how sensitive you are!

But I still think a documentary of the horror is a good idea. Oh I don't know, maybe not. Instead of showing kids how terrible such a thing is, maybe it would set some of them off.

I'm sorry I started this thread.

Love (apologies) annap

Subject: RE: BS: Help me! Colunbine Thread
From: Grab
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 09:06 AM

Can anyone tell me what this tape would be for? Maybe I'm missing something here, not being American? But how's showing a video to someone going to put them off?

If you're sick enough (and I use sick to mean illness, rather than as a judgemental thing) to go on the rampage through a school, a la Columbine and Dunblane, what's a video going to do? By that point you're beyond any kind of reason - the people who do this are not rational creatures, and cannot be swayed be logic or empathy. If they felt empathy for their victims, they wouldn't be doing it! And if you're not that sick, then all you're going to do is find the video offensive, or gratuitous.

My point is that to show such a tape to everyone is unpleasant for nearly everyone, and for those at whom it's allegedly targetted it's irrelevant, cos they're not reasoning rationally anyway. Of course, the people at whom it's really aimed are the same low-intellect folks who watch wrestling and other predigested TV crap - I bet that tape got a high viewer rating. Never underestimate the tendency for TV to cater to the lowest instincts...

Grab.

Subject: RE: BS: Help me! Colunbine Thread
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 09:30 AM

The tapes are about three hours of a camera panning through the high school, particularly the library--no dead bodies--they apparently have been released in some sort of effort to avert lawsuits--there is music on them, because whoever it was that shot them decided to put it on--I saw a few minutes on this mornings news, and they are basically not very interesting--

Subject: RE: BS: Help me! Colunbine Thread
From: Gern
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 09:44 AM

My understanding is different on this. One of the parents says the video DOES show dead bodies and graphic footage, that the networks gratefully haven't shared. This mother saw her daughter's body being dragged out of the library. I can't imagine the benefit of broadcasting this pain, although I appreciate the original poster's feelings on this. She (?) says she would not be desensitized, but she cannot speak for others who cannot control their blooklust. How many students would view footage of a shot-up school library and say "Cool!"? I guess any decision to release such footage should require the approval of all parents involved. The sale of film displaying the death of my child would be a trauma hard to endure, for people who have already suffered immeasurably. As with graphic pictures of war atrocities and controversial surgical procedures... can't we sympathize without delving in bloody images and invading the privacy of victims?

Subject: RE: BS: Help me! Colunbine Thread
From: SINSULL
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 11:00 AM

I agree with Praise. Spend some time encouraging a young teenager, especially one who is not getting it at home. This should be a lot more profitable for all concerned than wallowing in the destruction of a year ago.

I am not suggesting that you ignore or forget it. Learn from it and move on.

Lastly, as a mother, it would break my heart to see my son's body manhandled by strangers. And I believe those "strangers" are still trying to "learn and move on". What purpose is there in showing the grim details over and over again?

Subject: RE: BS: Help me! Colunbine Thread
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 11:12 AM

Annap, thanks for that. I have to admit I didn't think it sounded quite like you, even an upset you, but it didn't come off the way you intended. Sorry and thansk very much for coming back to clarify it.:-)

According to the newspaper this monrning, the video is about 30 minutes long; has been used as a training tape in over 82 seminars across the US and Canada; was "adapted by a firefighter" from raw footage; shows no dead bodies, but does show obvious bloodstains and markers of where bodies were; and shows a boy, who was shot & paralyzed, being dragged by his feet to rescue.

According to the same story, the Jefferson COunty Attorney is making copies of the tape available to the public for $25. This, after the families of vicitms had to go to court and fight for the right to view footage. One family member questioned where the money is going to go.

The article also mentioned the music behind it, which includes the song, "If it were up to me", by Cheryl Wheeler: "Maybe it's the movies, maybe it's the books, maybe it's the drugs, maybe it's the parents.....Maybe its the end, but I know one thing. If it were to me, I'd take away the guns."

From what I've read, I can see no earthly reason for the police to have done this, esp. in making it available to any sicko who gets off on watching such stuff. I seems it should be a gross violation of the families right to privacy or something.

Annap, no need to apologise for starting this thread. Where else but at the Mudcat can we share such strong emotions AND get intelligent, genuine concern, care, and perspectives so well said? If you hadn't started it, someone else probably would have.

Thanks,

luvyakat

Subject: RE: BS: Help me! Colunbine Thread
From: BlueJay
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 11:14 AM

This was covered in several articles in theis morning's Denver Post. I have a copy in my hands. I quote Beth Nimmo, the mother of murdered Columbine student Rachel Scott: For the first time, I saw my daughter be dragged to the fire engine. I didn't need to see that. Nobody else needs to see that. I'm outraged. It does so much harm to the victims and their families.

"I'm Rachels mom. I raised her. I feel violated by seeing her body pulled through the grass. It was not a time to be silent.

"It crushed me to think people all over the country can watch my daughter be handled... It's very humiliating. Rachel had a lot of dignity."

End Quote. I happen to sympathize with her, and can see no good coming from this. She also mentions how these scenes could impact Craig, Rachel's brother, who while uninjured saw his friends killed in the library, and later learned of his sister's death. I haven't read enough, but I fail to understand why a purported "Training" video for the Fire Dept. needs to be made public AND FOR SALE AT TWENTY FIVE DOLLARS!!! They sold 40 of them the first hour they were available. The whole thing smells bad to me. BlueJay

Subject: RE: BS: Help me! Colunbine Thread
From: Molly Malone
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 11:49 AM

Call me a freak. Call me anything you like. But when tragedy stricks, I WANT to be desensitized. I will take any horrible memory and relive it over and over so that I can get through it on my terms. So the next time I see it unexpectantly I'm not such a basketcase. But it has to be on MY TERMS. Not whenever the TV stations want me to see it.

And I can't imagine what kind of effect this would have on the children involved. How many months of counselling would be ruined by replaying these? I have three small children. I'm not sure I would want them to be watching TV and suddenly see this again.

annap, I understand your point of view, and certainly respect it. But I can't agree with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Help me! Colunbine Thread
From: GUEST,Kelida
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 11:54 AM

Personally, I think it's horrible that people are always trying to capitalise on other people's pain and suffering. It's really rather tasteless. I've grown up in a time when violence is splashed across all media, and I don't feel desensitized. However, I don't need to SEE the stuff that happened at Columbine to be horrified. I will never understand why people have to SEE things to feel what I feel just HEARING about it. There is no earthly reason that I can see to SELL other people's pain--that in and of itself speaks of desensitisation. How can people reconcile that with the idea of spreading and increasing sensitivity?

Peace--Keli

Subject: RE: BS: Help me! Colunbine Thread
From: GUEST,Charlton Heston
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 12:34 PM

I agree that it is completely insensitive to make this video available.

But there is a part of me that would feel gratified in seeing the two killers do themselves in. Pity they didn't do that first, BEFORE going to the school.

Subject: RE: BS: Help me! Colunbine Thread
From: SINSULL
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 01:08 PM

Blue Jay, Brace yourself. We will be flooded with "made for TV" crap involving this, Elian, the murdered gypsy cab drivers in NY... You name it. Someone out there thrives on reliving it. And there is always someone willing to fill the need and make a profit.

Subject: RE: BS: Help me! Colunbine Thread
From: annamill
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 01:15 PM

Don't worry Molly. Thinking back on it I don't think I agree with me either. It was written late and I was tired and I didn't really get the whole story. No one should have to be put through that again and again.

Again, I apologize.

Love, annap

Subject: RE: BS: Help me! Colunbine Thread
From: BlueJay
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 01:39 PM

SINSULL- I agree 100%. I think the Columbine families are probably expecting the onslaught also. Fortunes are made, empires founded on this sort of feeding frenzy. But realistically, any Hollywood version of the Columbine Massacre PALES in comparison to the effect on this family of seeing the actual body of their daughter/sister/niece being dragged through the grass, in real time. Along with scenes from the slaughter, soundtrack provided. BTW, the singers, Sarah McLachlan and Cheryl Wheeler contend that their songs were used without their permission. I grewup in Jefferson County, and each passing day makes me wonder exactly what the f**k happened to that place. BlueJay

Subject: RE: BS: Help me! Colunbine Thread
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 01:50 PM

" See the bubble-headed bleach-blond
Comes on at Five
She can tell you 'bout the plane crash
With a gleam in her eye
It's interesting when people die
Give us dirty laundry"- Don Henley

The video portion of the tape was culled from post-crime documentary footage by Denver Safety personnel. It was edited into time-line sequence by a Denver Fire Dept employee, showing the aftermath of the shootings on up to the funrals and memorial services. Music was dubbed to the tape, including Wheeler's gun-control song and the Cohen Bros "Columbine" commemoration. Apparently, the finished product was shared with other Municipal Fire Depts as part of a training film re adapting to traumatic and violent incidents. The victims' families sued to gain access to this tape and won. The judge then declared them public property.

Be aware...there are reputed tapes documenting the actual slaughter. Can release of these be far behind?

Subject: RE: BS: Help me! Colunbine Thread
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 02:07 PM

A personal note on this - my opinion only, not intended to be Right or anything.
Some of you know that my father was killed by terrorists on April 18th, 1983. Well, it was extremely distressing to all of us (my mom and sisters) that the coverage of that bombing was so curtailed. It wasn't even on the cover of Time Magazine that week - Nastassia Kinski was ("Hot New Faces From Europe") (aside: and we've never forgiven her, although of course it wasn't her fault). It was off the front page in 3 days, and out of TV within the week. We all felt that coverage should have gone on and on and on. We felt that it was being forgotten about. Every year, when there was no Remember This, we get upset again. And especially with all these other horrible things happening in April are remembered - nobody mentions "our" bombing. The Never Forget (can't recall the exact name) website lists all the other April dates - the 19th (Waco, Oklahoma city), the 20th (Columbine) - CNN just did a big thing on the history of terrorism - and where is the remembrance of the bombing that destroyed our Embassy? n NOT MENTIONED ONCE. In fact, CNN has been known to show footage of the Embassy bombing aftermath while discussing the Marine one.
Sorry to vent. It still bugs me that nobody remembers this one - if you say Beirut bombing most people think of the Marine Corps barracks one.

As a separate aside, I find it disturbing that the US news media coverage of disasters is so US-centric. For example, the latest plane crash off our coast, that killed dozens, was the day after a plane crash off the Ivory Coast in which hundreds were killed and some people actually survived to swim to shore! I can't recall any other plane crashing into the sea after takeoff and leaving any survivors - but to read about this crash, I had to web over to the African newspapers, all the US ones were talking about was the one closer to home with so many fewer deaths. I'd like to see the number of people involved begin to take precedence over the number of AMERICANS involved. But again, that's just MY opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Help me! Colunbine Thread
From: BlueJay
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 02:11 PM

LEJ, so there was an actual training purpose to the film? I hadn't heard about that. Perhaps the film started out with good intent: many fire and police departments are keenly aware of the need for immediate post-traumatic intervention. I have been helped in such a way myself, recommended by the Denver Police Dept. But putting a soundtrack to it, releasing it to the public for sale? I have to wonder if the judge who ruled it to be public ate his Wheaties that day. Seems like we're pitting one victim's right to full disclosure against another victim's right to privacy. I don't know. Hope you didn't take too much offense at my comment about JeffCo. It's going on all over. BlueJay

Subject: RE: BS: Help me! Colunbine Thread
From: Wesley S
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 02:18 PM

It would seem to me that both singers mentioned that have songs on the "soundtrack" could get the sale of these tapes yanked due to copyright infringment. Where's ASCAP and BMI when you need them ??

Subject: RE: BS: Help me! Colunbine Thread
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 02:24 PM

It's No Greater Love, not Never Forget. Address http://www.ngl.org. If I knew how to do a blicky I would, sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: Help me! Colunbine Thread
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 08:28 PM

My understanding is that the judge ruled that survivors and families of survivors learned that the tape had been created and was being used for training, and they demanded that it be released as evidence--under Freedom of information or some such thing--If this is the case, then legally the songs cannot be removed, and the tape cannot be altered in anyway that is not incidental to the process of reproduction--

This misunderstanding is why I hate TV news so much--when you got to the newspaper archive website and read, you come away with a completely different picture than if you listen to or watch the news--