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Help: seperation - any advice
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Subject: seperation - any advice From: GUEST,Patrish Date: 14 Jan 02 - 12:38 PM I am about to seek a seperation from my husband of 26 years, father of my 5 children. I am going to make an appointment with a lawyer tomorrow - I am hoping for an amicable peaceful settlement - am I living in the real world? Any help - advice wanted. love Patrish PS remember I am simple, no nasty revenge stories or stuff like that. |
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Subject: RE: Help: seperation - any advice From: AllisonA(Animaterra) Date: 14 Jan 02 - 12:42 PM Patrish- email me at animaterra@monad.net- I'd be happy to share from my recent experience (for me it was 20 years). The most important advice I can give here is to be clear about your own boundaries and expectations and to communicate with respect and firmness with your soon-to-be-X Best of luck on this difficult journey- Allison |
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Subject: RE: Help: seperation - any advice From: JenEllen Date: 14 Jan 02 - 12:51 PM Ditto. You can e-mail me at jenny_oaks@hotmail.com I think the best way to live through an amicable seperation is to remember that there was some reason the two of you got together to begin with, and you shared a lot of life together, so there is no way you can be expected to go 'cold turkey'. The nasty revenge stuff is a lot of fun in theory, but it doesn't work in real life. Another thing to remember is to take care of yourself, stay away from the chemicals (no sleeping pills and coffee chasers), and allow yourself time to heal.
Best of luck, and love, |
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Subject: RE: Help: seperation - any advice From: Airto Date: 14 Jan 02 - 02:07 PM Have you told your husband yet? If not, why are you going straight to a lawyer if you're hoping for a peaceful separation? |
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Subject: RE: Help: seperation - any advice From: Mrrzy Date: 14 Jan 02 - 02:17 PM Oh, Patrish, sorry to hear but it sounds like a thought out decision. My advice is to look at how your relationship is now; is it cordial? If so, then the separation is likely to be about half that cordial. Is it already acrimonious? Then double the acrimony for the separation. If you want to share details, or just get moral support, you can email me too, I'm in the system somewhere members can get to. I'm assuming you're OUR Patrish albeit temporarily sans cookie. If not... let us know and we'll still be glad to help all we can. |
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Subject: RE: Help: seperation - any advice From: Steve in Idaho Date: 14 Jan 02 - 02:41 PM I work with families for a living. Most's goal is to work things out - yet about 4-5 a year divorce. Of those only 1 has gotten ugly. If your husband is willing I'd suggest you find a social worker/mediator/couselor that is willing to sit down with you and help you sort out your intermingled lives (if you can't do it with each other). I'm being very general here so take it for what it is worth. Don't get in a rush to sort 20 years out in a couple of days. Many things that you have in common could go to your children as they are the ones who it will mean something to. Be honest with yourself about what you want and why you want it. Sometimes giving in and giving up with property dispersal are the same thing. Be clear about why you want something and what you are willing to trade for it if the other partner wants it also. One of the very best divorces I ever saw was a couple went into the house and took turns taking things. After it was all sorted out they swapped for items that they really wanted. Negotiation is key, patience is paramount, and ask for help if you need it. You are certainly welcome to PM me for any service I might be able to provide. My best to you both - but especially your children. Since you didn't say how old they are I'll not comment on what is appropriate and what isn't concerning them. Steve |
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Subject: RE: Help: seperation - any advice From: Jeanie Date: 14 Jan 02 - 02:42 PM Yes, Patrish - ditto. Please do get in touch by personal message. There's a lot of us who have been through this, and believe me, you *will* get through it. It's sensible to get legal advice - but remember that lawyers want to make money. It's their business. If you are in Britain, go to the Citizen's Advice Bureau as well as talking to a solicitor. My local C.A.B. were my first port of call, and they were marvellous: lots of sensible, free advice and encouragement, and a sympathetic shoulder to cry on. Good luck ! With love and every good wish - Jeanie |
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Subject: RE: Help: seperation - any advice From: M.Ted Date: 14 Jan 02 - 03:13 PM As a guy, I reinforce what Airto said-- If you have not talked with your husband about this, and if he is not expecting it, then you are about to create a nightmare, not just for yourself, not just for him, but for the five kids-- Don't say that he "knows" that you are unhappy--guys can drink heavily, cheat on their wives, abandon them, and even beat them, and still be completely surprised when their wives leave, file for divorce, or even file for a restraining order--we are kind of dumb that way-- We are also creatures of habit, and it is hard to tell(even for us) how we will respond to anything that shakes up our daily routine(no matter how empty or unpleasant it may seem)--your best shot, generally, is to lay a solid foundation for what is going to happen, before you drop any bombs--otherwise, we scramble in a panic to find bombs of our own to drop-- Lawyers should be the last resort, for negotiating child custody, property, and financial arrangements, when other options have failed--If you don't know what your options are, a family therapist, a counselor, a clergy person, or some sort of women's support group should be your first stop. I am not suggesting that you you give things one more try, or anything like that--if, after 25 years and five kids, you want to bail, you probably have plenty of good reasons--I am just saying that you shouldn't make any sudden moves--remember, no matter how bad things seem, the can always get worse-- If you, or your kids, are in fear of your lives, it is a slightly different story--go to one of the above, and tell them what is going on, so they can get you into a protected situation, ASAP--even in this case, the lawyers come into the picture later--
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Subject: RE: Help: seperation - any advice From: Bobert Date: 14 Jan 02 - 03:23 PM Norton1 has given you some GREAT ADVICE, Patrish. Try mediation first. Unfortunatly, most attorneys just like fighting. It's their nature. I just finished helping a friend of mine thru a seperation and divorce and in the end the only thing that an attorney did was document preparation. I'd still keep the appointment tomorrow so you'll understand the legal issues but again, mediation is a far more civilized approach, especially since children are concerned. Good luck, and it sounds like you have a nice support group assembled here allready. |
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Subject: RE: Help: seperation - any advice From: Noreen Date: 14 Jan 02 - 06:20 PM Patrish, you know where I stand on this, and I know you've done the hardest part- making the decision to go. You're a lovely person and deserve better. I found talking to a solicitor (free initial 30min consultation) was very useful to find out where I stood legally, and what the options were. I'm holding out for the 2 year separation, as this should be the most straightforward, and save enriching the legal profession more than necessary. Talk soon? I'll be thinking about you. Love, Noreen |
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Subject: RE: Help: seperation - any advice From: Clinton Hammond Date: 14 Jan 02 - 06:50 PM All I can say is that i know people who have separated/divorced on good terms, so it must not be totally impossible... and don't let ANYONE talk you into staying just for the sake of the kids... That's all I have to add, besides best wishes and such for ya as well... |
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Subject: RE: Help: seperation - any advice From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 14 Jan 02 - 06:52 PM Patrish- See the lawyer. Most of them do point the client towards an amicable settlement. He-She will help you towards settling the important issues and steer you away from the little things that may cause unnecessary rancor. (daughter undergoing divorce; son with a law firm) |
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Subject: RE: Help: seperation - any advice From: Micca Date: 14 Jan 02 - 07:25 PM Patrish, I am in the same boat, as you know, and am here also, if I can help in any way, just pick up the phone... |
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Subject: RE: Help: seperation - any advice From: Irish sergeant Date: 14 Jan 02 - 08:07 PM I feel for you Kiddo. When I divorced my first wife it was because she took a powder. It's never easy and you have a lot more time invested than I did. I can't offer much except to say it would be best if you can keep things civil. Best of luck and PM if you'd like to talk. Kindest regards, Neil |
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Subject: RE: Help: seperation - any advice From: kendall Date: 14 Jan 02 - 08:35 PM What are the ages of the kids? |
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Subject: RE: Help: seperation - any advice From: Jon Freeman Date: 14 Jan 02 - 08:40 PM They are possible Patrish but an amicable peaceful settlement will be more the product of your husband's willingness than of the advice of lawyers. Jon |
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Subject: RE: Help: seperation - any advice From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 14 Jan 02 - 08:52 PM Reading your previous postings - PLEASE get to a family therapist immediately!
There is hope for you and your family ... but you must get help NOW!
............. It is mid-winter, it is dark
............................................but SPRING will bloom again. Don't throw 26 years away.
The LAST PLACE you should be seeking advice is from a "Folk Song Group"
Sincerely, |
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Subject: RE: Help: seperation - any advice From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 14 Jan 02 - 10:44 PM Lots of well-meaning advice, some offered with a point of view and not particularly useful. Reading them through, two succeeding posts by Noreen and by Clinton Hammond are, to me, the ones that seem the most clear-headed. Different states, and different provinces, have legal quirks that can be troublesome unless you understand them clearly. Unless you are millionaires, lawyers are only too happy to point you towards an amicable settlement, since time spent relative to possible income is greater in divorce court actions than in most litigations. In some jurisdictions, only property gained during the marriage is subject to contest, in others, all of the property brought into the marriage is considered. There are differences in custody statutes. There are differences in what constitutes effective separation. ETC. Amicable separation, with agreement on custodial and property matters, based on accurate legal advice, is the objective to be strived for. There was one case here a few years ago where everything was agreed upon except for custody of an income-producing male stud (dog) (probably less than $500 per year), and this led to other disagreements and to court. The lawyer finally got them to agree to give the dog to a third party, who was willing to care for it. Be prepared to give up on things like this to keep the course of the divorce running smoothly and the other person involved will also tend to be reasonable. Agreeing with Clinton, staying together for the sake of the kids and for no other reason is one of the worst things you can do. The kids, not being stupid, will know that the relationship is empty. Proper direction to children is seldom given in such a home. |
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Subject: RE: Help: seperation - any advice From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 14 Jan 02 - 11:33 PM As was previously written, DON'T accept the advice of "folkys"....they have a hard enough time finding harmony in a duet.
Some can be low fee, some can be no fee.
It is a pathetic-personal world when one must "turn to the kindness of strangers" to seek marital advice! Surely, there is another streetcar running towards your desire. PLEASE look elsewhere!
Sincerely, |
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Subject: RE: Help: seperation - any advice From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 14 Jan 02 - 11:36 PM Folks, PLEASE read what she has posted to previous threads and see if you would STILL give her the same advice? |
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Subject: RE: Help: seperation - any advice From: Stilly River Sage Date: 14 Jan 02 - 11:47 PM Patrish, If you've been married for 26 years, have 5 children, and are ready to go to the attorney tomorrow, then you've no doubt been also reading the thread on dealing with depression. Don't let people start talking you into things because it meets their agendas. This list included. Depending on the counselor's agenda, they can help, or they can just try to get you to change your mind, making a hard situation worse. Yes, it does surprise men that their wives file for divorce. Statistically (in the US) 75% of those who do the filing for divorce are women. The reasons are clear. If you file first, you are most likely to get your dibs on custody of your children. That's why I did it that way--I was the classic stay-home mom while my kids were small, I stopped working when the first was born. Skills were somewhat out of date, no job, how else was I going to get my kids except to be the first one to ask for custody? I went back to school for my master's, got a job, (lost both parents at this time, so it was an extremely difficult process). Counseling can help, when timed right, so we actually only entered into counseling for a month right before the papers were signed, not before. He was refusing to answer any questions or give me any idea of how he intended to keep in touch with the kids and me if I moved. I am not constrained to stay in Texas, and I will leave when I finish graduate school. Ours is an amicable divorce, but when I look at us now, I know that we're much better off divorced. Because we're not going for days without speaking. (We were remarkably civil, except for not talking--we were stuck living in the same house until the papers were signed). I admit I had to trick him into counseling (said I'd reconsider staying if he'd go into counseling). The moment it was out of my mouth I knew I couldn't stay, but at the same time, after a few sessions with the psychologist, he knew that we were still headed for divorce and it wouldn't be so bad if we could still talk. That was two and a half years ago. My kids this summer, in a conversation about a friend still troubled by her parents' divorce, said they'd gotten over our divorce ages ago. That was the best thing they could tell me--and I called my ex to let him know what they'd said. Because we worked very hard to put them first and not let them start playing us off against each other. (Neither of us has remarried, not from lack of interest, but because it isn't where we're focused right now). Oh, and another thing that helped us get rid of all the silly shit in the post-divorce relationship and figure out what was really important--I got cancer. Had to go in for surgery in October of 2000. It's all gone, I'm completely healed, but along with it is gone the petty stuff, because we all know how very lucky we are, and that when we need help, the other is still there to lend a hand. We went from being resentful spouses back to being friends. Divorce binds you closer, rather than giving you freedom from a spouse, if you have children. Here in the US, many things are automatic in the divorce decree. It's something to be prepared for, and to keep in mind--if you approach the process respectfully, you're much more likely to get respect in return. Not necessarily right away, but eventually. Several have spoken other supportive words, and given personal email addresses. I've given examples--I hope not so much that it becomes maudlin or too personal. Just meant for examples, not to vent, because I'm past that. Divorce doesn't mean your life is over, or that you're entering a downward spiral. It's painful, but you'll get over it. Good luck. Maggie |
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Subject: RE: Help: seperation - any advice From: Stilly River Sage Date: 14 Jan 02 - 11:48 PM P.S. We were together for 20 years. |
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Subject: RE: Help: seperation - any advice From: M.Ted Date: 14 Jan 02 - 11:54 PM Separation and Divorce are not primarily legal issues-- property division, support and custody issues are generally problems because of mutual anger and distrust, not because of the complexities of the law--You can't guarantee that things will go well, but if you start things off the way that many lawyers do, by grabbing assets, by changing locks, by leaving town with the kids, and by using the service of legal papers as an opportunity to embarass and humiliate, then you can assure that there will be long, unpleasant, and expensive battles.
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Subject: RE: Help: seperation - any advice From: Stilly River Sage Date: 15 Jan 02 - 12:05 AM I gave my ex the papers myself, no constables walking into his workplace. I made sure that there was none of what M.Ted describes, and as little embarrassment and discomfort as possible. You hire the attorney, they charge every time you call, so you have to be sure to make it clear what you want them to do and what you DON'T want them to do. They work for you (though a lot of them would like you to forget that). |
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Subject: RE: Help: seperation - any advice From: GUEST Date: 15 Jan 02 - 12:14 AM My divorce should be final this week. Finally! It has taken just shy of two years, even though it was amicable. The problem was the lawyers on both sides not being responsible enough to file things on time for the courts. When you get an engagement contract with your lawyer, make sure it specifies performance criteria -- that they must do what they say they will do when they say they will do it. Otherwise prepare to be screwed around, especially if the divorce is unencumbered (and therefore cheap). As much as you might not like your spouse, I will bet you will come to hate your lawyer. A.N. |
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Subject: RE: Help: seperation - any advice From: Bert Date: 15 Jan 02 - 12:32 AM You have given us a couple of sentences and asked us to give you meaningful advice. That's not possible because we don't have enough information. All that we can say is what we would have done differently if we had to live life over. My advice under those circumstances would be "Ditch him 26 years ago". It's a tragady, it's going to be hard, keep your spirits up and lean heavily upon your friends. |
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Subject: RE: Help: seperation - any advice From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 15 Jan 02 - 12:42 AM LONDON - One of the largest surveys of teenagers has found that teenagers are twice as likely to engage in underage sex if their parents are separated or cohabiting rather than married. The survey of 2,000 teenagers aged 13-15 was published July 24, by the Family Matters Institute and presented to the Lords and Commons Family and Child Protection Group of the British Parliament.
Dr. Clifford Hill, one of the authors of the report, told the UK's Observer that the number of children born to unmarried couples in Britain had risen from 5 per cent in 1960 to 10 per cent in 1980, and to 38 per cent in 1999. The number of babies born to teenage mothers in the country totaled 48,000 last year.
Other studies on divorce were cited by fourteen-year-old Clayton Giles, who has been biking across Canada... bringing a simple message that "despite a divorce, children need two parents." According to a UPI story covering Clayton's quest, "Although children of divorce make up only one-sixth of the child population, they account for 91 percent of child suicides, 78 percent of young offenders, 65 percent of teen pregnancies, 90 percent of runaways, and 71 percent of school dropouts. They make up 85 percent of children with behavioral problems, 75 percent of the occupants of chemical abuse centers, and 80 percent of the adolescents in psychiatric facilities, according to research studies."
LifeSite Daily News, 7/23/2001
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Subject: RE: Help: seperation - any advice From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 15 Jan 02 - 12:43 AM Bert...and others...read her PREVIOUS postings to other threads! |
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Subject: RE: Help: seperation - any advice From: Stilly River Sage Date: 15 Jan 02 - 12:49 AM Statistics. Never believe them. Gargoyle has an agenda going here, and is pulling out statistics to force a point. But people who are unhappy living together DO NOT SET GOOD EXAMPLES FOR THEIR CHILDREN. On the contrary. I have a number of friends who felt that their miserable childhoods were due to parents who should have divorced and just gotten it over with. Enough said. It's way past bedtime on this side of the Atlantic. |
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Subject: RE: Help: seperation - any advice From: Stilly River Sage Date: 15 Jan 02 - 12:51 AM Why don't you just link to the smoking gun? I found nothing to be concerned about one way or another. Do you know the html? |
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Subject: RE: Help: seperation - any advice From: GUEST,Patrish Date: 15 Jan 02 - 03:53 AM Many thanks for your concern and advice. I only want to talk to a lawyer to find out what my legal position is. I think I will be the one to move out of the marital home. I have two children at home a girl 15 and boy 10. I am aware that if you don't spell it out to some people that they never realise that something is wrong. My worst fear initially is telling my husband. My children are all aware of the problems. I need a good dose of my own company and my own privacy and some courage would come in handy. love Patrish |
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Subject: RE: Help: seperation - any advice From: katlaughing Date: 15 Jan 02 - 04:43 AM Patrish, I would suggest you have a third party there when you do tell your husband. Not necessarily a friend, although moral support would be helpful, but someone like a counselor, pastor or some other neutral party, perhaps someone from a women's shelter or from the CAB which someone mentioned earlier. If you have fear of telling him, you shouldn't do it alone, imo. Obviously you have thought this out, as many others have, in their own lives, who've posted from your side of the pond. I hope you can call on them for the assistance and support they've offered. I was divorced the first time after five years and two children. The second time after 3 years and 1 child. They have all thanked me for the way they were raised, with my third husband, Roger, as their adoptive father (we're going on 22 yrs now) and I would never have considered staying in an abusive relationship for the misguided "sake of the children." They are all healthy, well-adjusted adults, independent and productive. Had I stayed, they would have possibly grown up to be very unhappy, dysfunctional and even abusive. We are your friends, here, and will support you in anyway possible. Consulting a lawyer to find where you stand and what to do next makes perfect sense to me. The only thing I would say is make sure you find one who does the work they are supposed to; my girlfriend's didn't...she was married to a local attorney and couldn't get one to go up against him, so she lost all of the property to him, with shared custody of the kids and a pittance for support and he is a millionaire. You are in our thoughts and we wish you well, Kat & Rog |
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Subject: RE: Help: seperation - any advice From: Alio Date: 15 Jan 02 - 04:49 AM Patrish, I've been down this road too, and I feel for you. Noreen's advice is good - I had a free consultation with a solicitor who set everything out very clearly for me, but I also took a good friend with me. I was in such a state, feeling I'd failed etc., that I wouldn't have taken everything in on my own. The next thing is to take it slowly. Don't push yourself too far or too fast, and let the healing process take time. Good luck - our thoughts are with you. Ali |
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Subject: RE: Help: seperation - any advice From: katlaughing Date: 15 Jan 02 - 05:07 AM Yes, Ali, good point, take a friend by all means. My friend was so abused she was afraid to ask questions, speak up for herself, and didn't hear half of what the attorney said. I went with her, asked questions and took notes. It helped. |
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Subject: RE: Help: seperation - any advice From: GUEST,MC Fat Date: 15 Jan 02 - 06:05 AM Pat, knowing you as I do and knowing a little of your personal situation, I can only think that for your own (and your children's) peace of mind and sanity it's the best thing for you all. I know you'll have thought long and hard and it's a very difficult decision for you to make. I think you'll find that the odds (sorry) are, or should be stacked in your favour, he will have to contribute to your new situation financially and this may be better under a legal framework. I know we've had our differences recently but I am thinking about you and I wish you all the best and all the luck and happiness that you deserve. I'm here if you need a shoulder to cry on, or just to sound off remember I am if nothing else a good listener. All the best and I hope everything goes well.Jim P.S. Who's going to get custody of the hole in the Floor !! |
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Subject: RE: Help: seperation - any advice From: Deckman Date: 15 Jan 02 - 06:19 AM CHEERS to you ... Bob Nelson |
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Subject: RE: Help: seperation - any advice From: GUEST,Patrish Date: 15 Jan 02 - 07:22 AM Again thanks for your help and good wishes. I have tried unsuccessfully to contact the CAB - will try again this afternoon. Jim - thanks. I think I will let my husband keep the hole in the floor As for the odds being stacked in my favour - well that makes a refreshing change! love Patrish |
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Subject: RE: Help: seperation - any advice From: Hollowfox Date: 15 Jan 02 - 08:21 AM I just walked that path myself, add me to your PM-if-you-like list. Some things apply on both sides of the pond. First, your level of stress is high, and it will be that way for quite a while. This means that you should be more careful about things. Your reaction time won't be quite as fast, so be more careful when you drive. Your short-term memory won't be as good, so write yourslf notes, do what you must and then do what you can. In spite of what guest/gargoyle says, your posting here is a good thing in that you are establishing a support base (if that's still the "in" term) of friends. Experets and professionals have their place, and you're making use of them, but a friendly word, and just knowing that somewhere in the world there's somebody who gives a whatever about you and what you're going through can make all the difference. The advice of having someone with you when you talk to your husband is a good one, as you both then have a witness (and a third person's memory) as to just what was said. My separation wasn't all that bad (he left), but there were a few "but you said/no what I said was.." irritating moments. One last thing. When you go to the lawyer, have as much information together as you can. Lawyers do charge by the hour, and if they have to listen to extraneous, if heartfelt, stories to get the information that's needed, it just runs up your bill. Crying's ok, though, bring some tissues, just in case. Take care, Mary |
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Subject: RE: Help: seperation - any advice From: Llanfair Date: 15 Jan 02 - 11:13 AM I've only just seen this thread, Pat, and I have some idea of what you have been tolerating for a long time, so I am pleased that you are now ready to take action. I know that you are a brave and resourceful woman, and will get through this. If your husband was capable of reasonable two-way communication, it wouldn't be so difficult right now. You know where I am if you need anything, and the spare room is vacant if you need it. Cheers, Bron. |
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Subject: RE: Help: seperation - any advice From: M.Ted Date: 15 Jan 02 - 12:58 PM I don't recommend that you try to keep the marriage together because of what Gargoyle posted, but please don't ignore the information that he posted-- No matter how hard it seems for you, it is worse for the children-remember that they didn't decide that they couldn't continue living with either of you, and the only world that they know is going to be ripped apart--no matter how much you think they understand, they will have no way of preparing for the pain that they will feel, and keep inside--also remember that they will blame themselves-- Look very carefully at the problems mentioned in Gargoyle's post--chances are, you will have to deal with at least one of them, and probably more, over the next few years-- |
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Subject: RE: Help: seperation - any advice From: Mr Red Date: 15 Jan 02 - 01:45 PM Treat him gently get the offspring on board, they don't have to agree but give the opportunity to contribute or disagree. Do I assume there are teenagers? Complete with hormones and angst? Discuss it with them especially. Who knows which way they see it, they may feel a measure of guilt. I remember a girlfriend who as an adolescent found by surprise her mother was er.... intimate upstairs and later even as a youngish widow couldn't rationalize the fact that her mother was enjoying what she was gadding about in pusuit of. Logic has nothing to do with parent/child thingies. The solicitor will be advising you, but be sure it is what you feel comfortable with, solicitors have a vested interest in stringing the process despite what they tell you. Mine informed me that they have a duty in law to advise you to seek "Relate" type help. I declined that quagmire, as I saw it - if someone is trying to tell me something through lawyers they have already told me. Don't desert the Mudcat, you will need some touchstone. I found Folk Clubs again (blame the ex for the deserting) and songwriting, and boy was that a saviour. |
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Subject: RE: Help: seperation - any advice From: John J Date: 15 Jan 02 - 01:51 PM Sorry to hear of the problems Patrish, but I'm impressed you've got the guts to walk the talk. Good luck. I had no idea you were even married, let alone for 26 years and with 5 children. You look bloody marvellous! Keep yer chin up. John |
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Subject: RE: Help: seperation - any advice From: Morticia Date: 15 Jan 02 - 02:39 PM just want to add my " I am here" bit, Patrish, been down that road, stayed good friends, have happy and reasonably sane children and a much happier life.I also have a spare room and broad shoulders....feel free to use both at any time. |
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Subject: RE: Help: seperation - any advice From: GUEST,nyfiddler Date: 15 Jan 02 - 02:43 PM Hi I was separated in July 2001, and am in the process of an amicable divorce. An amicable divorce is possible if both partners in the process remain considerate of one another, which is alot easier to say than to do. No matter how amicable your divorce is, bear in mind that you are both (including your children), about to go through a major life change. Some days will be better than others, sometimes you will feel like your life is an open road, other days it will feel dead-ended. Let your lawyers handle as much as possible so you both can give eachother the bearth you will need while going through the inevitable process of "this is mine and that is yours". Good luck. |
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Subject: RE: Help: seperation - any advice From: Stilly River Sage Date: 15 Jan 02 - 03:32 PM Kids are smart, M.Ted, and it doesn't take them long to figure out that if they have full access to both parents (a good thing, as long as there isn't an abusive situation going on) and if they know that they're the most important thing to both of you. Two relaxed households (or at least one that becomes relaxed after the separation!) has a calming effect. I told my two kids the options as far as moving out and they told me which apartment complex they liked, because they had friends there. Fine with me. Also has a good playground. Yes there were tears. And they called their dad every night at bedtime for a good month before they relaxed and realized they were seeing him every day after school. I was in the position to let their dad keep the house. It's small, but we had equity. What was MORE important to me was that if I stayed in the area or moved (more important if I moved) that when they return to stay with their dad they're in the same house, with the same friends and neighbors and support system for all of us. The funny thing out of this is that we've been divorced for more than two years, but because I come and go all of the time and the kids are there a lot, several of the meighbors have still not caught onto the fact that we're divorced. Two different people were surprised at the news just this month. It sounds from Patrish's friends that she is making the correct move. That inspires more confidence than do the doom-and-gloom comments from those who would try to scare her into preventing the breakup of a family. Your children aren't at peril if you take very good care to put them first.
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Subject: RE: Help: seperation - any advice From: Cobble Date: 15 Jan 02 - 04:36 PM Patrish.. if you need to talk just MP me I could meet you any time, I have the time if you can make use of it. Have been there myself , and I was very greatful for good friends who listened without passing judgement or comment. If you need to get away for a night just yell! Blessings Margaret ( MRS. C)
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Subject: RE: Help: seperation - any advice From: M.Ted Date: 15 Jan 02 - 04:58 PM "Doom and Gloom"? Sorry SRS--the truth isn't doom and gloom-it is something that you have to deal with--and the problems don't appear right away, they appear over time-- Your attitude seems to be that after a month or so, when everything had settled, things were fine, and you all went on merrily with your lives--Maybe for you it worked like that, but not for the kids--They seem to go with the flow at first, but they really just internalized the pain--it sometimes takes years before they let it out-- Having seen, first hand, how this plays out over the years, I know what the mistakes are--I would prefer that people take care not to make the same mistakes, because I know where they lead you--
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Subject: RE: Help: seperation - any advice From: Stilly River Sage Date: 15 Jan 02 - 05:20 PM M.Ted, sounds like you have some of your own issues here you're addressing also. My parents were divorced (as many on this list are aware of, but that's ancient history) and they were both very attentive parents. My attitude is that kids are flexible and if their parents take good care of them they'll be okay. It's as simple as that. It took a couple of years before my kids looked back, on their own, and through hindsight saw that things were okay. I think you're borrowing trouble by predicting dire outcomes. Of course I went through periods of adjustment with my parents, as I will with my children, but that's also a part of growth, not just a result of divorce. I'm sorry that your bitterness is possibly the result of someone not putting your youthful needs first. You're convinced that divorce causes these problems for children; others of us are equally certain that this isn't the case. It looks like an instance where we'll have to agree to disagree.
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Subject: RE: Help: seperation - any advice From: katlaughing Date: 15 Jan 02 - 05:25 PM Not all kids internalise the pain, esp. if their parents are upfront with them and allow discussion, offer reassurance, and are completely honest. Despite some acrimony in my divorces, my children didn't go through any of what M.Ted is reporting. |
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Subject: RE: Help: seperation - any advice From: Noreen Date: 15 Jan 02 - 06:01 PM My children are so much calmer and seemingly happier since my separation- I'm not trying to make a point here, just reporting what I see and feel. One major reason for leaving my husband was that I hated to see what the constant rows and tension were doing to my children- not to mention seeing one of their parents being treated with utter contempt by the other... think of the damage that will do to developing minds, when you try and persuade an unhappy couple to stay together. gargoyle, some of us here know Patrish very well and know what she's had to put up with for a long time, which is why we feel able to advise her. If you are ignorant of the situation, feel free to stay out of this thread. Noreen |
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Subject: RE: Help: seperation - any advice From: M.Ted Date: 15 Jan 02 - 06:08 PM You don't know me, so it really isn't wise to pass judgement on my life-- Anyway, my view on this is hardly unique--ask a few family therapists, and check with your local child psychologist before you dismiss what I have to say--Talk to school guidance counselors, and check the adolescent correctional institutions--You check it out, too, Kat---
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Subject: RE: Help: seperation - any advice From: katlaughing Date: 15 Jan 02 - 06:27 PM M. Ted, what is that supposed to imply? The teachers, guidance counsellors, and school psychologists who saw my children as a matter of routine in their education can attest to what I have said about them. I have to agree with SRS, it *sounds* as though you are bitter from a personal experience and painting with a pretty broad brush because of it. Not all kids fit into the same shaped holes; not all are going to react in the ways you have reported. Who are you going to believe, when it comes to our own personal experiences? Hang in there, Patrish. |
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Subject: RE: Help: seperation - any advice From: M.Ted Date: 15 Jan 02 - 08:12 PM I'm not sure what you think I am saying--but what it seem like you are saying is that, because your kids didn't have any long term problems as a result of your divorce, that it isn't anything anyone needs to worry about-- I am saying two things--that a lot of kids who have trouble of one kind or another, also have experienced a divorce, and that kids in that situation keep a lot inside, so that often, it isn't obvious-- Parents going through divorce tend to be pretty wrapped up in their own problems, emotional, financial, and legal--leaving the kids on their own to deal with what is probably the worst experience of their lives-- Your kids may be fine, and thats good--I hope everybody's kids do all right--If you are aware that they are in a situation that often results in problems down the road--you've got a better chance of protecting them--
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Subject: RE: Help: seperation - any advice From: Stilly River Sage Date: 15 Jan 02 - 09:30 PM M.Ted--I grew up with a MSW (Master of Social Work) who worked for the state in Child Protective Services. You don't want to hear the stories I heard through the years about the children who were abused and killed while in their parents' custody. I know precisely what I'm talking about when I describe children and divorce. But what we're not taking into account here, as in guest/gargoyle's statistics, are the parents who ARE so wrapped up in themselves that they set their children adrift. The source of my depression as filing for divorce approached was my grief at what could do to everyone else. I beat up on myself pretty badly, no one else pointed any accusing fingers. I take it for granted the mere fact that this talented group of caring individuals who have the interest in supporting a friend (or stranger) through a difficult time, a group of literate, educated adults who have good critical thinking skills, are going to do a better job of raising their kids than those without these gifts.
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Subject: RE: Help: seperation - any advice From: M.Ted Date: 16 Jan 02 - 02:50 PM No disagreements from me--just trying to help, though it seems to have gone all out of hand-- |
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Subject: RE: Help: seperation - any advice From: beadie Date: 16 Jan 02 - 03:44 PM Patrish: My own experience (from the y chromosome side of the equation) was very amicable. The key was that we had already approached the topic, discussed it, agreed on general terms for the future of our soon-to-be fragmented family (support, visitation, and such) and reduced our agreement to writing BEFORE getting a lawyer involved. True, it seemed like we were paying someone to do what we had already done, but the value of the simplicity and amiability was (to paraphrase the credit card people) priceless. Although there is the possibility in our state of doing a divorce without benefit of a lawyer, it is restricted to situations not involving kids and only where the parties have been married for less than (I think) five years. Check your own laws if you think this might be an option (but from your tone, I'd be hesitant to recommend it). As well, ask a family lawyer (or the local court clerk) about the process of mediation. As mentioned above, this represents a much less adversarial alternative if you can make it work. Remember, as much as communication is a necessary part of living together, its even more important when breaking up if you want to avoid the agony and anguish of all that fighting. |
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Subject: RE: Help: seperation - any advice From: Mr Red Date: 16 Jan 02 - 06:04 PM Good luck. My ex got most of the money and I got most of the sanity. A fair and equitable settlement I think you would agree. But if you have been half the household for 26 years you are entitled to a goodly share, even if that is deferred while the children are dependant. Stay with Mudcat When I am not working I use the library for the internet, I get 1 hour (only) per day but it is free (here in Gloucestershire). |
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Subject: RE: Help: seperation - any advice From: Deda Date: 16 Jan 02 - 10:44 PM Another chorus of "Been there done that" -- I was married for fifteen years, two kids, who were 8 and 11 when I left. My daugher, the older child, lived with me during her most hell-raising teenage years; my son only spent a few weeks each summer with me. They are now 22 and 26, and both are strong, warm, generally well people. They are no worse off psychologically than most people I know and much better off than a lot of people. I have generally excellent relationships with both of them and with my ex. The first years are the toughest in dealing with your ex and probably for your kids -- but the relief of being out of a terrible situation is immediate and very tangible, and will sustain you. Of course you have to be open to conversations with your kids -- doesn't that go without saying? The thing that I don't know how to deal with is this: the ex telling the kids something like, "She's left us, it's just us now, if it weren't for you kids I'd have no reason to live" and other things that rope the kids into terrible guilt and a kind of codependent assuming of the left parent's misery. I kept remembering the silly old nursery rhyme, "Leave them alone and they'll come home, [bringing?] their tails behind them." What I meant was that I wasn't going to force anything on my kids, not even visits. I made sure they knew that I wanted them and loved them, and I just trusted that they would come around eventually. It was hard and I shed tears, but it was easier than being wretchedly unhappy. It takes courage to leave, partly because of the disapproval you'll get. Those people, too, will come around eventually, or else they'll disappear. They understand or they don't, they are well-meaning or they aren't, they don't really matter. Their approval or dis- has no more substance than a cobweb. Your own well-being matters, and your kids. I wish you all the luck and strength in the world. This could, truly, be the start of something great, in the long run, for everyone involved. |
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Subject: RE: Help: seperation - any advice From: Steve in Idaho Date: 17 Jan 02 - 12:53 PM Deda In Idaho the parent telling the child that would find themselves in contempt of court. Probably a warning the first time - but the second? A night in jail. Very strict rules around alienation of affection here. Not to mention it just isn't right. My initial post is based on my experience with families. I am an MSW, my specialty is families, and I would like to think I have a fairly solid working knowledge of the dynamics surrounding children involved in divorce. M.Ted is correct in that one must be careful in their interactions with children. But I believe one should always be careful when interacting with children. I think it simply wasn't worded in a manner that clarified M.Ted's intent - M.Ted's last post was quite elequent about where he was coming from I thought. SRS - I also do Child Protection. So I understand where you are coming from. And the statistics presented earlier are not reflective of the reality I deal with on a daily basis. Very few children suffer long term debilitating effects from a divorce. Those that do are usually as a result of physical, sexual, and severe emotional abuse prior to the divorce. You must remember that since I do work where I do we have a bit of a different outlook on things. One of our favorite sayings is, "Children survive and thrive in spite of all our parents best efforts to raise us correctly." This has been a good thread - many here have a solid working knowledge of the issue and the main concerns were well addressed. I find that anytime one can openly ask for help the faster they move into recovery. Steve |
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Subject: RE: Help: seperation - any advice From: GUEST,Patrish Date: 18 Jan 02 - 03:50 AM Again, all my thanks for your help and advice. At the moment I am feeling shell shocked. Thanks for all the offers to send PM's but I cant cos I am only a guest. love Patrish |
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Subject: RE: Help: seperation - any advice From: Trevor Date: 18 Jan 02 - 05:43 AM Hello Pat, Yet another here - if you want to e-mail me I'm on trevor.hedges@countytraining.com. I'm married and divorced twice and there are a couple of things that, when I twigged, made a big difference for me. In the first instance, although for a long time after the separation things were horrible, after the dust had settled all I wanted was to be able to talk with my ex-wife (12 years, 2 kids)in a civilised, amicable way. As soon as this was possible it took a lot of pressure off both of us. What it needed, to draw the anger and suspicion and defensiveness, was the realisation about what we really were post-divorce - two people who had shared a big chunk of their lives, intimacy, laughter, love, pain and soforth, who had for various reasons decided to follow separate paths. It took along time but we are now there and it is such a weight from our shoulders. The second time it happened I was able to draw on my previous experience and be sure in the knowledge that in the immediate aftermath I would feel like shit, that a few weeks down the line I would still be feeling bad but maybe not quite so desperate, that after a couple of months I would be smiling again and that at some point in the future I would be through it and living my new life. And, no solicitor, counsellor, adviser or friend could help me until I'd sorted my own head out. Don't know if that's of any value but there you go. Give me a shout if you want - and I remember you saying that you loved Shropshire - you would definitely love our bit of it if you need a little peace. Good luck! |
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