Songwriting 101

Subject: RE: Songwriting 101
From: kendall
Date: 16 Apr 02 - 08:01 AM

What works for me is to just drag one out in a group and sing it. Then, if someone likes it, they ask "Hey, that's ok, where did you get that"? you know it's passed muster.

Subject: RE: Songwriting 101
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 16 Apr 02 - 08:54 AM

Hi, Capri: I see that we both love You Can't Roller Skate In A Buffalo Herd. I've sung that ever since I herd it. It's the only song I do on bottleneck guitar. It has such a nice, loping rhythm that way.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Songwriting 101
From: MMario
Date: 16 Apr 02 - 09:02 AM

One of the best compliments I ever got was when a musician friend heard a song I wrote and asked for the author's name - because she wanted to look into recording it - and the utter look of total dumbfoundedment (if that's a word) on her face when I told her I was the author.

Subject: RE: Songwriting 101
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 16 Apr 02 - 09:14 AM

Yeah, Mario... that's a great feeling. I get a kick out of it when someone thinks that a song I wrote is traditional, and asks what old recording I learned it from.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Songwriting 101
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 16 Apr 02 - 09:28 AM

Capri, once again you're reminding me of ideas I've heard...and have trouble articulating...but here goes...

1) I love the scene in the movie Nell where Jodie Foster (playing Nell) makes the comment that people like her (attuned to nonverbal communication, and feeling greater truths in life) can recognize each other. (she made eye contact with the woman who was experiencing depression.)

2) I heard Judy Collins make a statement on the stage one time about how people in the arts and music just seemed to understand things and communicate on a level that most folks never experience.

I love the word joy too. Let me also add the words rejoice and celebrate.

Subject: RE: Songwriting 101
From: CapriUni
Date: 16 Apr 02 - 11:40 AM

Thanks for the links, McGrath! I've bookmarked the Independant Living homepage for later reference.

I think the dodgy thing about writing from the point of view of someone society considers "on the fringe" is that it's the point of view that becomes the focus, rather than the subject being examined.

If I wrote the song I AM PETER PAN with the line: "I can't walk, but I can fly!" chances are, the song would be end up being understood as being 'about' a disabled woman and her noble spirit, rather than about the experience of joy that we all have in common.

On the other hand, some points of view need to be shared, because injustice breeds where voices are silent, the way mold breeds in dark, damp places.

So I'm rather ambivilant about it... If I do it right, than I'll help break down walls we erect between each other and between our spirits and the fountain of life. (Thank you, W. B. Yeats, for that idea) But if I get it wrong, I'll only make those walls thicker with pity and bathos.

It must be a good line, though, because it has stuck with me ever since I had that dream over 22 years ago.

Subject: RE: Songwriting 101
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Apr 02 - 11:57 AM

It's the Peter Pan that would make that tricky, because of all the associations with childhood and never growing any older, which is terrribly prevalant a way of looking at disability, most especially learning disabioties, but ophysical as well.

"But I can't walk but I can fly" doesn't have to have that link.The same as if you said "I can't walk but I can swim"; or "I can't talk but I can sing". (And I know people like that.)

Subject: RE: Songwriting 101
From: CapriUni
Date: 16 Apr 02 - 03:38 PM

You're right about the Peter Pan, McGrath, but I think it's the I can't...but that's the really tricky part, because it defines the speaker by what s/he can't do, first.

But if the song is about flights of fancy in general, and the ability of the spirit to soar no matter what frustrations we face, then we're entering the realm of the universal...

But, BTW, that is another pet peeve of mine: that flights of fancy and believe in magic are allowed only to children: that Never-Never Land can only be inhabited by lost "boys", or that Puff the Magic Dragon must face a lonely, solitary eternity when Jackie Paper grows up, or that Christopher Robin must abandon the Hundred Acre Wood when he goes to school.

If the magic wand is a metaphor for personal power, and Never-Never land is the realm of possibility, then shouldn't grown-ups take those things with them into their everyday world, rather than leave them behind?

Perhaps that is one reason why the Harry Potter books are so popular, at least on one subconscious level: in that world, childhood is the training ground for magic, and even though we won't see any more of Harry after he graduates, we know that when he grows up, he'll be taking the magic with him.

Actually, there is already a fantastic song on this topic: Eleven Easy Pieces by Keith Grimwood and Ezra Idlet (aka Trout Fishing in America) -- a song that proves good lyrics don't have to rhyme, even though it may not come across as wonderfully on the screen as it does in the ear.

Subject: RE: Songwriting 101
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Apr 02 - 05:31 PM

I'd see "I can't..but I can" as saying "what you see is this, but what I am is something else". Which is more or less the same as Si Kahn is saying in that song - up to that last verse it's a great song too. Which shows that even great songs can use a bit of constructive criticism.

I imagine we'll likely have a chance to follow Harry Potter into adult life. Ursula Leguin has already done that with her student wizard Ged in A Wizard of Earhsea and the later books. (And there aren't any children in the Lord of the Rings. And Tolkien was very insistant that the idea that stories like that weren't for childen as such was nonsense. Or young adults for that matter.)

There are supposed to be sea birds that can never land - whether it's striucly true I wouldn't know, but it's a powerful image that ties into that line of yours. Just as mermaids could swim but not walk, and sing but not talk.

Subject: RE: Songwriting 101
From: Jeri
Date: 16 Apr 02 - 05:58 PM

Bert, I happen to know you like short songs, and I don't notice length the same way you do.

"Shine" has four, and I could probably cut one of the middle ones - probably the "darkness and despair" one. Unfortunately, I've had people following me around with tape recorders for that one. On the other hand, I'm apt to forget a verse anyway, so if I start with four, I'll have it just right.

"I Am The Song" I don't sing this. At some point, I think it's a bit pretentious. I'll take a look at it in light of what you've said.

"Islip" got printed in SingOut! It's got the same number of verses as the original Kilkelly, which no one likes because it's too long. *G* Mind you, I don't think anyone's going to sing Islip - it's more of a novelty.

When it comes to cutting things down, I've usually tried my best. Once I've got them as short as I think I can, I need people to tell me what verses don't mean anything to them - which ones aren't necessary.

CapriUni,
I think the line has wonderful potential, and I think you're very unlikely to convey that "oh, how special" feeling because it bugs you enough so you'd notice. I think you could write a song that makes the flying seem magical but not the person doing it. I think a lot of folks would be thinking "right on!" because we ALL have things we can't do, but we ALL have imaginations and creativity. You said "joy" isn't sentimental. Isn't that what you mean when you talk of flying?

Peter Pan gave up the idea of remaining young forever. He might have grown up (and doesn't look one bit like Robin Williams) and now can't walk. Didn't he tell people to crow, and they'd be able to fly? Maybe now he sings, maybe he just dreams he can crow, or maybe he just loves someone or something, and he can still fly, although maybe he didn't realise that for a while. Your "pet peeve" about flights of fancy would fit in there just fine. Maybe I'd better shut up before I start trying to write YOUR song, if I haven't already talked too much. I think it's a great line.

Subject: RE: Songwriting 101
From: harvey andrews
Date: 16 Apr 02 - 06:25 PM

I think songwriting is a gift, like ball sense, you've got it or you haven't.
All I've learned in 39 years is this
Say the most in the least
Tell me a story
Don't look in, look out.
Don't sing meyour life, find a way to sing me mine, if I'd been a sailor, a soldier, a writer, a drunk,or maybe, if I'd been you.
Always remember you're singing for someone else, not yourself
Communicate

Subject: RE: Songwriting 101
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Apr 02 - 06:40 PM

You could almost sing that last post.

Subject: RE: Songwriting 101
From: CapriUni
Date: 17 Apr 02 - 12:18 AM

Jeri, you wrote:

Peter Pan gave up the idea of remaining young forever. He might have grown up (and doesn't look one bit like Robin Williams) and now can't walk. Didn't he tell people to crow, and they'd be able to fly? Maybe now he sings, maybe he just dreams he can crow, or maybe he just loves someone or something, and he can still fly, although maybe he didn't realise that for a while. Your "pet peeve" about flights of fancy would fit in there just fine.

Interesting idea. In my dream, when the person called out: "Look! It's Peter Pan!" I understood that to be a nickname for myself -- that I was a living embodiment of Peter-Pan-ness ... in many ways, I haven't "Grown-up", either -- grown deeper, perhaps, or grown more complex (or confused ;-)), but not grown-up (ever notice that "grown-up" is in the past tense? Who would want that?).

But I like your idea of continuing the story of the character of Peter Pan, and writing the song as a ballad, though in telling the story, you'd probably have to tell what drove him out of Never-Never Land...

Maybe I'd better shut up before I start trying to write YOUR song, if I haven't already talked too much. I think it's a great line.

I don't think there's any danger of that. Even if we both start with the exact same central line, any song the two of us wrote would be completely different, simply because our experiences and aesthetic sense are different. Just look at the wide variety of songs that Aine's Song Challenges produce -- and each batch is inspired by the same event...

If you want to play around with the line, go right ahead. It came to me in a dream, but maybe the dream was only passing through my brain on the way to somewhere else.... Such as the Mudcat, perhaps ;-)

Subject: RE: Songwriting 101
From: KT
Date: 17 Apr 02 - 01:21 AM

CapriUni, I like the way you think!!

You said, "It came to me in a dream, but maybe the dream was only passing through my brain on the way to somewhere else..." I love it!

And isn't that what song writing is all about? Allowing the message to pass through on the way to somewhere else?

On that note, I think I will go and listen for a song in my dreams tonight. Thanks! KT

Subject: RE: Songwriting 101
From: Night Owl
Date: 17 Apr 02 - 02:11 AM

Jeri....thanks for starting this thread...wonderful info in it. I've read lyrics you've written and posted here in different threads, and they speak to my heart......and I've heard some of the beautiful music you've created. I DO hope you don't get discouraged while "honing" your skills.

I'm certainly NO expert...BUT I think you've got a LOT of "stuff" in you to come out in song. I'd be glad to give you HONEST feedback (from an amateur)if you want.

One of my personal favorite songs was written by my daughter, playing around with my Dulcimer during a blizzard, when she was six.

I had to giggle reading, cuz at 6 yrs. old, she followed some of the advice given here.

Chorus:

"I really like it when it snows
Because my snowman really grows
Grows and grows 'til he hits the sky
Momma will watch and so will I
Grows and grows 'til he hits the sky
Momma will watch and so will I

He's got two pine cones for his eyes
If he sees me I'll be surprised
He's got a carrot for his nose
If the rabbit comes
I'll get another one

Subject: RE: Songwriting 101
From: CapriUni
Date: 17 Apr 02 - 03:21 PM

That's great, Night Owl! Did you record/save the tune, too?

I really like the lines:

He's got two pine cones for his eyes
If he sees me I'll be surprised

Subject: RE: Songwriting 101
From: Kim C
Date: 17 Apr 02 - 05:53 PM

I write only to please myself. If anyone else is pleased, so much the better. But I have written a lot of things that no one besides me has ever heard, and I intend to keep it that way. Too personal.

Many years ago I was at a show featuring a local songwriter that I really liked, and I said to a friend, Man, I wish I could write like him. And he said, Why? Just write like yourself.

The songwriter and the friend have both drifted into the obscurity of times past, but I have never forgotten what he said to me.

Just write like yourself. :-)

Subject: RE: Songwriting 101
From: 53
Date: 17 Apr 02 - 05:58 PM

I've written the music to quite a few Gospel songs and a few Country song, but like I said earlier just the words to 1, but thanks for the words of encouragement. Bob

Subject: RE: Songwriting 101
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Apr 02 - 07:06 PM

A workshop sort of thing would be nice. Someone (???) could say "write a song on this topic." People would write songs, then the workshop 'someone' and the rest of us would discuss and critique the songs. I doubt it would work since there's some degree of organization involved. (insert winky-face here) Jeri

I think a Songwriter's Workshop on Mudcat would be great.

Anyone up for finishing a song I haven't gotten very far on? At this point, it needs not only some rhyming words/thoughts but some serious paring. Any ideas? Have at it, and thanks.

And yes. I do realize this could be seen as a navel-gazing song!

"Ten Thousand Tomorrows

Long ago, you were all the world to me
From here to horizon, far as I (eye?) could see
But time- it moved on, leaving you behind
Ten thousand tomorrows out of my mind

Once I really loved you
dah, dah, dah, dah, dah
Once I really loved you
Why have I forgot.

Forgotten the way you sat in a chair
Forgotten your smile and the scent of your hair
Don't even recall the touch of your hand
Forgotten it all, it's not what I planned.

Once I really loved you
dah, dah, dah, etc

In this morning's paper, there is your face
Next to some strangers, each one in its place
"He died yesterday" it dah, dah, dah, dah
Once I really loved you. Why have I forgot."

Ebbie

Subject: RE: Songwriting 101
From: Jeri
Date: 17 Apr 02 - 07:38 PM

Ebbie, "forgot" really sticks out because my brain wants to hear "forgotten."

You could put the "forgotten" in the third line of the chorus, and rhyme the second line with the last:
Once I really loved you,
dah, dah, dah, dah, dah
Why have I forgotten
dah, dah deedle, dah

Sometimes it makes it easier to just swap lines around when the rhyme is too difficult.

Subject: RE: Songwriting 101
From: Jeri
Date: 17 Apr 02 - 08:04 PM

OK - I keep threatening to do this.

More background than you want:
I started writing this after the Getaway last Oct. I started thinking how much I enjoyed being around people who were truly in love with someone or something. That love spills over into everything they do. Certain people made me realise this, but I guess I've always known it, and I've always known folks like this. This is sort of a thank you.

Please feel free to critique here or by PM. (Should I have started a separate thread?) No tune yet, but I hope the rhythm will be clear. Thanks.

---

Sirens

I'm always on the outside looking in
I'm always looking anywhere but where I am
Backward to a time long gone or forward to a dream
Alone, out on the edges where I stand

There are those who live their lives in the center of the flame
They're never far away from heat and light
Though mighty in its passion, it's love, all the same
And love, it is a beacon when a life burns so bright

Some are no less passionate, but sing a quieter song
Their love is at the heart of who they are
The light burns though the darkest times, ever steady, strong
They navigate their lives, with love their guiding star

Your love is a light, drawing moth to flame-
It's a siren's call, far away, but strong.
One stands apart, on hushed and shadowed path,
And yearns to join the vision or the song.

And never mind the song is one not meant for me to hear
Never mind if you don't even know I listen
I stand in silence, and to me, it's wondrous and clear
On these edges, even shadows dance and glisten

Out here on the edges, almost out of sight.
I hear the joyous song, I feel the call
If it were not for your love that shows my heart the way back home
There are times I'd never find my way at all

Subject: RE: Songwriting 101
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Apr 02 - 08:39 PM

Ebbie: Maybe "How could I forget?"

(Which is ambiguous as well; I like ambiguity in songs.)

Jeri: You might try changing the pronouns, and make it "he" instead of I, or the "you" to "her" etc. I'm not saying that's needed, but it might give an interesting angle. And Sirens in Grek mythology are not safe people to be around, they lure sailors to their death - I don't know if that idea is part of the image here, or if you want it to be.

Subject: RE: Songwriting 101
From: Jeri
Date: 17 Apr 02 - 09:47 PM

Sirens got a bad rap! I wanted to get across the idea of a compelling call from afar. Nobody dies in the song. The moth and flame one is probably worse. (Crackle - poof!) Moths aren't really drawn to flames anyway - I believe they're drawn to electric lights because the frequency makes the lights pulse, and the moths think they're navigating in between divided bits of moonlight and go into the light instead of through it sideways. Or something like that, but I digress...

Thanks!

Subject: RE: Songwriting 101
From: Bert
Date: 17 Apr 02 - 10:36 PM

Yup, I know I go on about long songs but three and a half minutes is the absolute maximum length of a song if you want it to get air time. Three minutes or less is better.

The ONLY exceptions to this are if you're really famous or if you belong to a group that sings old ballads.

Next time you're at a sing and someone is singing a long song, take a look around the audience, you'll see that most of them are looking at the ceiling or the walls and not paying attention to the song. Is that what you want for your songs?

Subject: RE: Songwriting 101
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Apr 02 - 02:57 AM

Jeri and McGrath, you're so right- I always knew it jarred. I think I used it because of that- but I'm not locked into it.

'Forget' is a lot easier to find rhyming syllables for, too. I'll take another look- maybe I can finally get the silly thing finished!

Ebbie

Subject: RE: Songwriting 101
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Apr 02 - 05:10 AM

McGofH: what do you mean "You could almost sing that/the last post" We always did in cubs. (many moons ago)
Day's done
Gone the sun
From the sea; from the hills; from the sky
All is well; Safely rest
God is nigh.

Subject: RE: Songwriting 101
From: Night Owl
Date: 18 Apr 02 - 09:11 AM

sooooo.....I have a question. When someone writes powerful poetry...like Jeri has done (IMHO).....with words that stand strong withOUT the music...is there a way to "forecast" it'll be a wonderful song....before knowing WHAT the music for it IS??? Feels like a dumb question here...gonna go re-read the advice up above there.......lol.

Subject: RE: Songwriting 101
From: MMario
Date: 18 Apr 02 - 09:26 AM

if the poetry is powerful - I figure the is usually some way to find a tune that won't detract.

jeri - I have goosebumps! - literal goosebumps on both arms from reading that!

Subject: RE: Songwriting 101
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 18 Apr 02 - 10:23 AM

I had a friend of mine who was not a singer, a musician or a poet, who decided he wanted to perform, reciting the lyrics to folk songs. He recited the lyrics to one of my songs, and it sounded so self-important (how can you make a song about living on the river and frying catfish in a skillet sound important?)that It was difficult not to laugh. Not at him, because he was/probably still is a good man. Most lyrics to songs don't stand alone. I imagine that there are the reverse... poetry that loses something being sung. Just like I feel that there are certain songs that should be sung a capella, because the song is complete in itself and will only be diminished with instrumentation.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Songwriting 101
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Apr 02 - 12:12 PM

I think it's true generally that the best poems aren't the ones that make the best songs, and the other way round. Yeats wrote a lot of poems which as poems have much more power than the Sally Gardens, but they probably wouldn't make anywhere near as good songs. I doubt if many people would rank Kipling as high as Gerald Manley Hopkins, as a poet, but when it comes to verse that makes good songs he's pretty good.

There are exceptions. One that I'd put in that category among modern songs would be Dave Goulder's The January Man (and others by him as well). And that's an example of a song that doesn't need to have an instrumental accompaniment, and in fact is likely to lose by having one imposed on it.

Subject: RE: Songwriting 101
From: Jim Krause
Date: 18 Apr 02 - 03:28 PM

Jeri, Excuse me, I have not read any of the posts after your original. One of the things that opened my eyes about songwriting, or specifically lyric writing is a book by Sheila Davis called [aptly] The Craft of Successful Lyric Writing. Davis has been a professional songwriter, and now teaches songwriting at New York City College, I think. Any of her books on the craft of lyric writing are pretty good and would be worth your money.
Jim

Subject: RE: Songwriting 101
From: Jeri
Date: 18 Apr 02 - 08:20 PM

Bert, what happened to "size doesn't matter?" ;-)
The one above clocks in at just over 2 minutes when I extemporise a tune. As far as people nodding off during a song, if it's got a good chorus, I'd like it to last for a while, and choruses adds quite a bit of time onto a song.

Night Owl, I agree with McGrath about poems not necessarily making good songs. The words have got to be singable and have to fall in the right places to emphasize the rhythm. I think Kipling put that "punch" into his poetry, and so did C.F. Smith. Notes and syllables are held in songs, and they aren't when you read a poem. Some words are just difficult to sing because they twist your tongue or interfere the flow of air.

I don't know if what I wrote will sound decent when I get around to writing the tune. It's a lot easier for me to write the tune to the words than the other way around. I don't know why that's so, and I know it's not true for everybody. I have another song I'm writing. I'm trying to come up with words to fit a tune that's already done, and it's HARD!

Subject: RE: Songwriting 101
From: CapriUni
Date: 19 Apr 02 - 01:48 PM

Jeri --

I'm that way, too (writing words first, and then writing the tune), and generally, I try to model the melody on the sounds of the words as spoken -- that is, I speak the line out loud, as if I were having a spirited conversation with somebody (as though I were trying to convince them of the truth of my argument -- not as though I were reciting a poem for an English class), and listen for when my inflection goes up or down, and then write the melody to match that. As for the duration of each note, I try to match the spoken words, too. For example, in the word "into", it takes longer to say the second syllable than the first, so I might make the first syllable an eighth note, and the second syllable a quarter note.

The first verse and chorus give me the melody. Then I sing that over and over, and write the subsequent verses as though I were writing a filk.

It's a system that works well for my ear, and produces songs that I can sing easily while I putter 'round the house (which is when I do most of my singing). Which is why I find it completely baffling and frustrating when my Dad informs me that the words and notes don't match up. And this is true for every song I've shared with him.

It's like we're speaking two different musical languages, and I don't know how to translate.

And I haven't gotten any "second opinion" feedback on the matter to figure out whether or not it's my ear and & brain combo that is out of kilter. Though I do belong to a mailing list dedicated to singing and sharing rounds, and I've gotten feedback on the melody to a round I'd written [the overlap among the parts led to a chord progression that shifted keys]. But no one said that the words and notes didn't match up. Part of me assumes that's because the words and tune did match up. I can never be sure, though, if the others on the list had the same problem my dad does, and just didn't want to say anything. ...I really wouldn't be surprised if it was my brain, though, since visible symptoms of my CP (out of whack muscle tone, coordination and balance) are controlled in the same part of the brain that processes the experience of rhythm. And when my dad was a kid, he took music lessons as a drummer, so his ear is really attuned to rhythm. But if there is a test for "rhythm deafness", I've never taken it (being able to clap along at a song circle is not a skill that's rated with great importance by the mainstream medical community, unfortunately).

The above long ramble has been a set-up for the following question:

Is there some formula for matching notes to syllables that I can use as a back-up for when my own ear may not be reliable? Should I, for example, base duration of notes not on the length of a syllable as spoken, but on its accent (In which case, "into" would get a longer note on its first syllable, instead of its second)?

Subject: RE: Songwriting 101
From: MMario
Date: 19 Apr 02 - 02:07 PM

Something "we" found when rehearsing Christmas carols is that some of the differences are in how people pronounce words or inflect their sentences - ; in many cases we would have to stop and decide WHICH way we as a group were going to sing a particular phrase -

The way I sing "Mingulay" and the way a friend sing it have different inflections on several lines - and after several false starts we have learned to do it whichever way the one taking the lead does it - and neither is "wrong" as we have both heard recorded versions in both styles (and several others)

the same friend and I use VERY differnet phrasing on the round "Hey ho, nobody home" and the attempts to put the two together are hilarious, since we CAN adjust while singing in unison but tend to slip back into individual styles when we break into the round itself.

Subject: RE: Songwriting 101
From: CapriUni
Date: 19 Apr 02 - 03:53 PM

Interesting, MMario,

Maybe I should ask Dad to read my lyrics out loud, and see if he interprets the rhythm of the lines differently.

I do know that we hear recorded songs differently (say, when we're listening to a song on the car radio) -- he almost never understands the lyrics as they are sung, and it doesn't bother him at all, but he can pick out unique syncopations that the drummer is doing in the background. I, on the other hand, hear the lyrics first: the rhyme scheme, rhythm, etc., and can memorize the lyrics after a few listenings.

As much as I want to share what I do with my father, I may have to resign myself to the fact that as valuable as his advice is in other matters, we're just too different, musically, for his critiques to be valuable.

Which is why I like the idea of a song workshop thread -- In the Mudcat, we have all sorts of musical types.

Subject: RE: Songwriting 101
From: harvey andrews
Date: 19 Apr 02 - 07:24 PM

CAPRI UNI---you sound like a lyricist to me.I didn't realise everybody didn't record the words and the rhyming schemes in their heads as well as the tunes and the feel until I was really quite old! Although I've written hundreds of songs I still don't think of myself as a musician,although I can come up with singable tunes, I can't play in singarounds, and I really envy people who can just JAM! But there is something special about hearing other people who are musicians taking your work and putting their stamp on it.You write it, let your dad work out the rhythm section!

Subject: RE: Songwriting 101
From: Jeri
Date: 19 Apr 02 - 11:42 PM

A good backup for matching notes to syllables if you think your ear is missing a bit of awkwardness is somebody else's ear. I can't think of anything else that would be as reliable, but you'll still wonder if the other person's ear is off. (Is this the "Van Gogh Syndrome?") I guess you'd want to ask more than one person, or find someone you know is rhytmically savvy.

Your idea about asking your Dad to read the lyrics aloud is a good one. You'd figure out what was causing the problem and it may give you some insight into how he hears written words in his head.

Feel free to consider me an alternate ear if you should want one. I'd be happy to share my opinions. (Why do I think I probably didn't need to tell you that?)

Subject: RE: Songwriting 101
From: CapriUni
Date: 20 Apr 02 - 12:21 AM

Jeri -- thanks for the offer.

I may just take you up on it and PM you something. Do you have Alan Foster's Text to midi translating programs? If not, I can always email you the midi/s.

Harvey -- I don't know that I'm a lyricist (yet). That is a very specific skill (like illustration -- it's more than just drawing nice pictures), but I've always been a word person -- I think I was born an English major ;-). I've written poems and stories ever since I can remember... as a kid, even my self-talk thoughts were novelistic style narration (this is crazy, she thought, as she typed the words into the message,... wait, does "self-talk thoughts" even make sense?) ;-).

And as has been noted above, good poems don't always make good lyrics, and vice-versa.

Lyric and song writing do not come easily to me, which is why I want to try my hand at it, and maybe grow in the process [but not grow "up" ;-)]

Subject: RE: Songwriting 101
From: Night Owl
Date: 20 Apr 02 - 02:17 AM

Jeri/CapriUni......I HOPE you two don't stop talking here in this thread. I'm finding the conversation and "peeks" into a songwriter's brain...(the processes you guys use etc.) and the advice being given fascinating....

Subject: RE: Songwriting 101
From: GUEST,mELVIN
Date: 20 Apr 02 - 03:46 AM

Man,when I think about how to teach someone how to write a song, or worse yet, how to write a good song, it really blew my mind. Yeah, I've been formally instucted, and yes I've been in cowboy bands, jazz bands, symphonies, play by ear etc... So I thought what did I do wrong? Well one of the worst things I did was to enjoy my own work too much and "ignore" those little bothersome spots I knew were not just right. The thing that I think I did correctly was to listen to myself and be inspired by what was already happening.

Subject: RE: Songwriting 101
From: harvey andrews
Date: 20 Apr 02 - 05:15 AM

Capri-Uni..what I meant was your comments told me you were a word person. The craft of good songwriting takes years to learn (and is great fun) but as I said before it's like ball sense.Throw a ball at a kid who's got it and he'll catch it and play happily, throw it at a kid who's not got it and he'll fumble and drop it and walk away to do something else. The one with the ball sense can take it as far as he wants, there's no point the other kid trying. So if you like playing with words, pick 'em up and run with them, you never know how far you'll get!

Subject: RE: Songwriting 101
From: Jeri
Date: 20 Apr 02 - 08:48 AM

CapriUni, MidiText is fine. E-mailed MIDIs is fine.

I've grown up just enough that I pay my bills, sometimes on time, and I show up where I'm supposed to be. Other than that, my grown-upness is mostly a disguise I wear to hang around with other grown-ups, who are just as likely to be wearing grown-up disguises. (I wrote a song about this too. What a surprise.)

Subject: RE: Songwriting 101
From: CapriUni
Date: 20 Apr 02 - 12:12 PM

Night Owl --

I wasn't thinking of taking the discussion (of general priciples, ect.) private, just specific songs... But maybe it's time to start that "Workshop" thread, where specific songs can be posted and critiqued.

You up for it, Jeri?

Are we fairly sure it won't turn into trollbait?

Warning: Thread Drift Zone Ahead>

Though having said that, I think it's time for a confession: I have a secret alter-ego. I am a Pro-fun Troll, and as such, a golden fire extinguisher is part of my basic equipment (along with a kazzoo, paper birthday hat, and a blow tickler party horn)

The Mission Statement of the Pro-Fun Trolls: To slurp bandwidth with thoughtful posts, praising what we enjoy before criticizing what we don't, enticing lurkers into the sunlight, and hosting the occasional hoedown.

Of course, like all trolls, our goal is to take over cyber-space. In our case, though, our tactic is to spread so much kindness and laughter that the nasty trolls won't have room to gnash their teeth ;-).

On Mudcat, I nominate Áine to be our Pro-Fun Troll brigade captain.

End Thread Drift Zone

Subject: RE: Songwriting 101
From: Jeri
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 07:53 PM

CapriUni, I think the best way to ask for a critique of lyrics here is to start a thread and post 'em. I still don't think this is the best place to do it. It's like asking a roomful of people if they like your dress. Most of them will just keep quiet to stay out of trouble. Two will say it's too long, two will say it's too short. Two will love the color, two will hate it. Someone will point out it looks a bit like the dress Helvitica Noodleflip wore to dinner last Friday, but NO ONE will mention, or perhaps even notice, the the big rip under your arm. (Or if they do, they'll phrase it something like "I see you've done something very different and creative with your seams.")

You can try it. In my experience, people seem to like talking about songwriting in general and don't respond to requests for help with specific songs. There are probably many reasons why and I can only speculate about what they are.

McGrath thank you for your input. You were the only person who critiqued the song at all. My initial reactions to things often don't determine what I'll eventually do, and you've given me things to consider.

Bert, you got the other songs, and I thank you too.

Subject: RE: Songwriting 101
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 08:17 PM

I've started a part 2 for this thread, and suggest anyone who wants to post does it there instead of here, since this thread is a bit long.

Subject: RE: Songwriting 101
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 08:37 PM

*****************Thread split**********



See the preceding entry to be re-directed to the continuation of this thread.



Please do no post her, Thread split! see above.*******************************************