How to play the 'Blues Harp'

Subject: RE: How to play the 'Blues Harp'
From: Tootler
Date: 22 Sep 09 - 04:41 PM

Did someone mention Sonny?

or how about this?

Subject: RE: How to play the 'Blues Harp'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Sep 09 - 07:34 PM

I think I recognise you, old soldier, and I think that you will contradict whatever I say. And I've never heard of your harmonica-playing. Tempt me (as for me, send me a tenner and you can have my CD!) Perhaps I'll continue talking to sensible people only and not those with some agenda or other. Good night, old chap.

Subject: RE: How to play the 'Blues Harp'
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Sep 09 - 09:00 PM

well Steve,search and you will find,its out there and available
I have listened to your tracks,which are competent,and Very occasionally very good. but [imo]not in the class of the Murphys.
I would agree with the reviewer,quote [Perhaps sometimes the pace veers towards the plodding, as on the jigs, Out on the Ocean and Blarney Pilgrim.]
On those tracks and a couple of others you dont sound like your enjoying yourself,it sounds like your being too careful,and are frightened of making mistakes.
when I listen to Trip to Cullenstown[the Murphys]I hear musicians who sound like they are enjoying themselves,I hear musicians who sound at ease with their instrument , their joy of playing and their skill shines through.,it sounds like dance music,you cant stop your feet tapping
they very occasionally make chordal mistakes,however their music makes you want to get up and dance.,and IMO is a joy to listen to.
your playing of the Carolan numbers is good,your song accompaniment and your ornamentation is good,but its all too restrained and polite for my taste,to me the harmonica is a dirty low down instrument,you sound like you would be at home at the vicars tea party eating cucumber sandwiches, its clean cut, very refined and[imo] just too polite.

Subject: RE: How to play the 'Blues Harp'
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 22 Sep 09 - 09:40 PM

Can you kids play nice? I'm sure you are both a hell of a lot better than me and Tootler on the old gob iron, but you don't see us taking pot shots at anybody.
Or, if you can't play nice, at least stage a YouTube Harp Duel and let us all be the judges.

Subject: RE: How to play the 'Blues Harp'
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 12:11 AM

"How to play the 'Blues Harp?'" ... listen to Little Walter.

Subject: RE: How to play the 'Blues Harp'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 04:41 AM

Thanks for the "review." Clueless though interesting.

Subject: RE: How to play the 'Blues Harp'
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 07:34 AM

I hope you take my criticism as constructive,your playing is good,I do think that if you were to add chords occasionally[only a personal opinion]your style would be improved,my thoughts are these,that the addition of occasional chords would turn your playing from being good to excellent ,I think chords [in the right places]help to provide more emphasis and a bit more oomph and drive.
this is why I think your playing of the o carolan peices is better than the polkas and the out on the ocean set.
its these two tracks that particularly lack drive.
I would be interested to know why you think my remarks are clueless.
I live close to the sliabh luchra area,and am very well acquainted with the cork/ kerry style of polkas,I hear a lot of Sliabh Luchra music and I reckon your playing lacks the necessary drive and rhythym.,its just not dancey enough.
if you cant take constructive criticism ,thats your problem not mine.

Subject: RE: How to play the 'Blues Harp'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 08:25 AM

Good. Enjoy your Sliabh Luachra. Your credentials for criticism are far from convincing. But fire away. As Jeremy has probably often bid you in PMs, bye!

Subject: RE: How to play the 'Blues Harp'
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 10:03 AM

Steve,this is not a competitionbetwen you and I.
I have complimented you upon some of your playing,I also agreed with the reviewers criticisms.
this is about two different styles,you made a remark about chordal playing and irish music,you dismiss a three times all ireland champion phil murphy who chooses to use a chordal style.
like you, I have made cds which contain my harmonica playing,like you my playing is available for people to listen to.
I can only say that all the judges I have played harmonica for have been complimentary,and have remarked upon my sliabh luchra style of polka playing.
These are my credentials,I am a Munster champion,and one of my pupils has won an all ireland.
plus my harmonica music which is available on the net and on my cds
unlike you I do not dismiss other styles other than my own,but actually believe [as I have said earlier in this thread],that different styles are what make Irish music interesting.
it is you that made the following remark
[Melodies is what Irish music is all about, not chords, old chap.]
tell that to the Murphys.

Subject: RE: How to play the 'Blues Harp'
From: GUEST,Rob the roadie
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 12:12 PM

Ask Brendan Power he should know as he is awsome on it!

Subject: RE: How to play the 'Blues Harp'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 02:24 PM

Dick Miles, I will not discuss anything with you whilst you continue to misrepresent what I have said in the thread. Anyone even faintly interested in this discussion (assuming here that I'm not the only madman around) can see this for themselves so I don't know why you carry on doing it.

Subject: RE: How to play the 'Blues Harp'
From: meself
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 07:36 PM

Mr Schweik, a few points, if I may:

1) On diplomacy. There is no reason to suppose that Steve S. is not as open to "constructive criticism" as the next man - however, criticism is rarely constructive when it is preceded by an unpleasant exchange of barbed remarks. If you really want your criticism to be constructive, you need to establish, or re-establish, some kind of fellow-feeling before making it. Assertion of one's bona fides is not an acceptable substitute.

2) Your criticisms of Steve's CD are unfair on several counts. Firstly, he is not trying to play like the Murphys; it is clear from his and your comments that he is not quite as taken with their style as you are. Steve has made it clear here and elsewhere that he is put off by the occasionally discordant or slightly-out-of-tune effect of chording/vamping, and presumably does not feel that the "oomph and drive" factor make up for it - so why would he put into his playing? This seems to me an entirely subjective matter; your ear vs. his ear - there's a kind of sound that appeals to you; there's another kind that appeals to Steve. Secondly, and similarly, the supposed almost "plodding" of the jigs - entirely subjective; one man's plodding is another man's racing, and some prefer plodding to racing anyway. (And that was my opinion when I read the review which you quote). As for his playing being "not dancey enough" - not dancey enough for who or what? Thirdly, re: your remark that Steve on his CD sounded at times "too careful" or like he's "not enjoying himself", and that this means he's not in the "same class" as the Murphys - well, perhaps the Murphys are able to relax and enjoy themselves in a recording studio, but I have known and known of many masterful trad. musicians whose studio recordings have nothing of the excitement of their usual ("live") playing. In the same vein, I've known musicians who have been tremendous in the kitchen, but who are just ordinary on the stage. When I listen to Steve's CD, btw, it never occurs to me to wonder whether or not he was enjoying himself. I enjoy myself.

3) Why does everyone pick on the poor old vicar and his cucumber sandwiches? Never did anyone no harm as far as I know.

FWIW, based solely on your comments, I suspect that my own musical sensibility is closer to yours than to Steve's - but his approach is perfectly valid, as far as I am concerned, and his music should be appreciated on its own terms rather than being criticised for not being more like the Murphys'.

Subject: RE: How to play the 'Blues Harp'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 08:51 PM

The tempo for those jigs was my choosing, having heard Irvine and Brady play "Blarney Pilgrim" at that tempo on ~that~ recording. I wish we'd done it faster. But that was us, there and then. I like the Murphys' record and I picked up several tunes from it, but I rarely listen to it these days. Probably about as often as I listen to my own.

For the record, Dick has had issues with me, Michael Gill (whom he twice insulted in a most unforced way in this thread) and the reviewer of my CD in the past, and denizens of TheSession will be fully aware of this, despite Dick's propensity for changing his name at frequent intervals. Some of us can discuss things afresh with all baggage left behind. Alas, others cannot.

Subject: RE: How to play the 'Blues Harp'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 08:52 PM

Cheers, meself, by the way. :-)

Subject: RE: How to play the 'Blues Harp'
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 08:21 AM

meself ,I have made it quite clear,that I thought some of Steves playing very good,I have made it clear that my comments were subjective[imo]over and over again.
his music was criticised by a reviewer,criticisms that I agreed with,I also praised some of his tunes.
[not dancey enough not dancey enough for who or what ]quote.
sliabh luchra dancing.
this is supposed to be dance music the addition of a few appropriate chotrds can[imo] gives the music some omph.
   finally IT WAS Steve who had an issue with me and also with Will Evans OVER on the session,despite that, I have been fair in my review,praising that which I thought good and criticising as did the reviewer [two tracks]the reviewer criticised only one specifically.
[Dick's propensity for changing his name at frequent intervals. Some of us can discuss things afresh with all baggage left behind]QUOTE .       I have changed my name here once in SEVERAL YEARS,the reason for that was because Geoff Wallis called me Captain Birdbrain[instead of Captain Birdseye].
I am of the opinion that chords in irish music are very appropriate if the players knows what they are doing,listen to piano accompanists like the one with the allow ceilidh band.
[sometimes it is more appropriate to use dyads or double stops of a fifth,it just depends.
to get back on topic the ideal[imo] is to have three harmonicas one tuned in paddy richter and one tuned the traditional way,plus amelody maker.

Subject: RE: How to play the 'Blues Harp'
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 10:24 AM

of course one of the other advantages of tongue blocking,is the ability to play octaves,something I cant do,but it is another feature of Sliabh Luchra music.
meself,
visit dickmiles music,or my websitehttp://www.dickmiles.com there are harmonica tracks on mycds,and on you tube

Subject: RE: How to play the 'Blues Harp'
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Sep 09 - 07:06 AM

MESELF ,this is purely subjective,but I think part of the style of playing blues harp is bending notes.
I also think [and I live very close to Sliabh Luchra,and hear a lot of the music]that Sliabh Luchra,style of Irish Polkas requires a driving aggressive vigorous approach.which is suited by chordal or octave playing,Octave playing can be achieved by tongue blocking,chordal can be acheived either way.
Steve your playing of OCarolan,and the reels is very good,but you havent got it on the polkas or the out on the ocean set,you need to listen to Johhny o leary,or jackie daly.

Subject: RE: How to play the 'Blues Harp'
From: meself
Date: 25 Sep 09 - 11:20 AM

Dick - Read and noted. I don't have time to respond now, going to be away for a few days. Maybe when I get back ....

Subject: RE: How to play the 'Blues Harp'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Sep 09 - 06:17 PM

Not only do I listen to Johnny O'Leary, I've heard him live, chatted with him and bought him a pint or three. Salt of the Earth. Rest ye, Johnny! I also listen to and admire the playing of Jackie Daly, whose "Sliabh Luachra Vol 6" album got me playing Irish tunes on the harmonica. The problem is, Dick, is that you seem to think that living there is some kind of qualification for sounding off about it. Not so, as you so amply demonstrate with your ill-considered opinions. I'm sure that there are hundreds of country music fans who live near you who are about as qualified to pontificate about Sliabh Luachra tunes as I am to expound my opinions on the little green men who live on Saturn's fifth rock. Proximity is no qualification at all. One of the great things that sets Sliabh Luachra music apart, if indeed it is apart these days, is the direct and unadorned approach. When I play those slides and polkas that's what I try to do. If it's wrong but I'm still having fun anyway I shall simply have to shrug in your general direction. Chordal my arse, octaves my arse. Do what you do do well and stop trying to be so prescriptive. Neither Johnny nor Jackie would admire you for that. And neither do I.

Subject: RE: How to play the 'Blues Harp'
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 25 Sep 09 - 09:31 PM

You know, we have the Fighting Irish in the US too. They don't play Blues Harps though. They play football.

Subject: RE: How to play the 'Blues Harp'
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Sep 09 - 06:25 AM

steve if you cant take constructive criticism thats your problem,
[One of the great things that sets Sliabh Luachra music apart, if indeed it is apart these days, is the direct and unadorned approach. When I play those slides and polkas that's what I try to do] quote SteveShaw.
the reviewer remarked that the out on the ocean set is plodding,I agree,
I also think it applies to the polka set[a purely subjective opinion],but relevant to this discussion because you are using a SINGLE NOTE STYLE,and I reckon that if you were to use chords,or octaves you would get a bit more emphasis,that is part of the point of double stopping or octaving or chording it provides dynamics,dynamism is what is lacking on those tunes[in my opinion].
the rest of yor playing is very good,I think your style particularly suits the O carolan tunes.
if you cant take the heat get out of the kitchen,or dont make a cd.

Subject: RE: How to play the 'Blues Harp'
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Sep 09 - 08:08 AM

I will put alink up to my playing of an irish polka,using chords on a 10 hole hamonica not in paddy richter tuning.
it illusrates how chords do suit SOME tunes,it also shows a different style not necessarily better[thats subjective]it shows how on occasions a chordal approach does work.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1y_fG9GUWz8http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1y_fG9GUWz8
This is not a competition,hopefully just a demonstration of how several styles can work

Subject: RE: How to play the 'Blues Harp'
From: Tootler
Date: 26 Sep 09 - 02:45 PM

You know, we have the Fighting Irish in the US too. They don't play Blues Harps though. They play football.

Not quite Lonesome EJ. Two Englishmen arguing over Irish music in the manner only the English can. Go to any pub in England and you will hear arguments like this every day of the week; live - usually over football, though (the round ball type played over here) [grin]

Subject: RE: How to play the 'Blues Harp'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Sep 09 - 04:54 PM

I'm not arguing with him. There's no point. In any case, he's put his harmonica "playing" up there now for all to savour. My case is well and truly rested (what was it now...I seem to have forgotten...)

:-D

Subject: RE: How to play the 'Blues Harp'
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Sep 09 - 05:33 PM

so whats all the crap about the fact I changed my name.
quote[despite Dick's propensity for changing his name at frequent intervals.]In any case, he's put his harmonica "playing" up there now for all to savour.
it was up there all the time,on you tube under dickmilesmusic,there was/is a slow air,jig, hornpipe, reel.,plus its on my cds,along with my singing,concertina playing ,and guitar playing .

I have had the temerity to critcise two tracks on your cd,get over it.

Subject: RE: How to play the 'Blues Harp'
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Sep 09 - 01:17 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JZZPRPbV5Q
heres a jig with a bit of tongueing,some blue notes,some dirty notes,and some jaw triplets ,I reckon the blues harp techniques are not out of place in irish music,sorry if its not clean cut enough.
but I dont do cucumber andwiches

Subject: RE: How to play the 'Blues Harp'
From: Ernest
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 01:41 PM

Not bad for a...........................drafted dogcatcher from Prague.

;0)
Ernest

Subject: RE: How to play the 'Blues Harp'
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 06:11 AM

"I've got a Folk Harp, and I wanna paint it Bl-oo-oo-ue!"


I'll get me 'at...

Subject: RE: How to play the 'Blues Harp'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 11:16 AM

Dick, having just endured that, I don't know how you can possibly think that you could set yourself up as a critic of my playing. Still, fire away. No skin off my nose! :-)

Subject: RE: How to play the 'Blues Harp'
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 01:05 PM

Did /does Geoff Wallis [the reviewer]play?,does any critic have to play,
no they dont,
however I do play,and have won harmonica competitions[and there were seven other contestants].
Steve, get over it.

Subject: RE: How to play the 'Blues Harp'
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 01:50 PM

Actually, Dick,

I've been playing the harmonica for some forty years.

Subject: RE: How to play the 'Blues Harp'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 01:57 PM

For goodness sake, Dick. That clip is just awful! Someone has to tell you. As for competitions, frankly I've never felt the need to compete. I do this for fun. Good luck to those who think differently. As for Geoff, I seem to remember your quoting him several times to support your own "review." Make yer mind up!

And what's a "jaw triplet," while you're here? Nighty night!

Subject: RE: How to play the 'Blues Harp'
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 08:11 AM

a jaw triplet,are you serious?,
it is a flick to the right or the left with the jaw,to make a note either a third above or below in the same wind direction.
Steve,You know very well that a critic does not have to play the instrument to criticise, whatever you think of my playing the fact of the matter is ,I have been playing Irish music on the concertina and harmonica for many years I am acquainted with ornamentation and styles, a reasonable enough basis to make a criticism,if you cant take constructive criticism,you might as well pack up.
your playing good though it is lacks drive on two tracks,one way you could improve would be to use octave tongue blocking,this allows you to play in octaves[especially on the sliabh luchra polkas].

Subject: RE: How to play the 'Blues Harp'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 09:07 AM

Ah, jaw flicks. Yep, I use those. I won't start to list the ways I think you could improve, Dick. Knowing your own limitations is a good start, in fact it's half the battle.

Subject: RE: How to play the 'Blues Harp'
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 10:41 AM

what is your problem I have said your cd is very good,I have criticised two tracks,the same criticism that the reviewer made.
I know my limitations,I also know that I can sing, play the concertina and the guitar well[check out my you tube videos or my cds],the harmonica is not my first instrument,but I am still a munster champion,and one of my pupils won the all ireland on the harmonica,I would think that would make my criticism valid enough.
even if I couldnt play anything,that would not be a reason why I could not make a valid criticism.
I think if you used more chords and some octave work,your playing would be even better.
octave tongue blocking is a difficult technique[I am working on it myself]but I reckon it sounds pretty good on sliabh luchra music ,reminiscent of the octave fiddling style.
many music critics can not play anything,does that stop them?
no, of course it doesnt.