Origins: Musha ringum duram da...

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,KESx
Date: 05 Jun 22 - 01:27 PM

context: it's a retelling of a story. He was betrayed by his lover.
She got him drunk in their chamber as part of the betrayal (the devil is in her)

after centuries of it being heard, rhymed, scatted - we get what we hear.

This may be what he said in the chamber...

"Indeed, lets drink (indeed! (musha) he realizes the betrayal now in the song)

(she says:) all of it my old man (whack fol da daddi-o)

there's whiskey in the jar

He repeats the betrayal in the song as things get worse

2cents :)

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: meself
Date: 11 Dec 21 - 12:01 PM

"Captain Farrell would be English" - Of course - with a name like 'Farrell'! (Yeah, I know: the post referred to is a few years old, but - couldn't help it ... !)

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,Pet
Date: 11 Dec 21 - 08:47 AM

Such a fan of Lizzie, I know its an old folk song. But its been fascinating reading. Its funny too because I thought it meant a 'Ring of Mushrooms" as in a fairy ring.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 02 Sep 21 - 01:34 PM

I know it was 4 years ago but if Mick is still interested the kids' song he was after is the ring game 'The Farmer wants a wife'

The farmer wants a wife
The farmer wants a wife
Ee I addio
The farmer wants a wife

etc. a choosing game ending with the dog being patted sometimes quite forcibly by all the rest.

We all pat the dog etc.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Sep 21 - 11:57 PM

The devil is in the woman.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,Y Garth
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 06:07 PM

Well, Captain Farrell would be English, so there'd be no point in talking to him with any sort of heavenly language. I've got something that seems to make sense to me (given the circumstances):

"Push your ring, dummer do, dumb or die."

That would be, "Shove your ring over here dumb person, remain dumb or you'll die..."

If you push your ring off your finger you hand is outstretched and in full view. If you pull your ring off your finger your hands are crooked and close to your body and may be concealing something, or may quickly grab a weopon from inside your clothing.

Roadside arguments, and pleas for clemency were the bane of a highwayman's life, hence silence was a requirement (in this case anyway). A dumber or dummer was a mute person in those days.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: mayomick
Date: 27 Dec 17 - 12:25 PM

something on what Gallus Moll wrote about the fragment the ballad of King Orfeo at the link below .......from the singing of John Stickle of Unst recorded in 1952 ...."Apparently Stickle himself thought the song to be something of a nonsense lyric and was totally unaware of its rarity."

https://mainlynorfolk.info/steeleye.span/songs/orfeo.html

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Thompson
Date: 25 Dec 17 - 05:12 AM

There's also a long tradition of mouth-music - nonsense syllables spoken fast or sung for the heck of it - in Ireland.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Gallus Moll
Date: 24 Dec 17 - 07:08 PM

Regarding what appear to be nonsense words / choruses, there was someone in the North - Shetland? Orkney? Caithness? - a number of years ago who was singing what appeared to be a nonsense song/rhyme- till the right person heard him and realised it was a fragment of Norn, and the song was the remains of the ballad of King Orfeo.

I think there's details of this in John Purser's book (Music of Scotland?) , and I also think I heard Archie Fisher speaking about it on Travelling Folk many years ago -- -

I will take so long to seek out the information I am sure someone will be able to elaborate on this much sooner than I shall!

- However - sometimes the nonsense words are not actually so?!

(I can sing a number of foreign songs eg the Norwegian National Anthem, without having a clue as to what the words mean. I am quick at picking up and remembering songs by ear---some are from over 50 years ago.)

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: mayomick
Date: 23 Dec 17 - 09:00 AM

"Tá Mamaí ag teacht". Yes, that's what my friend told me it was at the time

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: mayomick
Date: 23 Dec 17 - 08:57 AM

I think it could be a case of gibberish made up to sound Irish , interspersed with real Irish words as heard by second or third generation Irish people. Which is not to say that some choruses aren't completely made-up .

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: mayomick
Date: 23 Dec 17 - 08:47 AM

talking about corruption, how come my apostrophes comes out as question marks?

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Thompson
Date: 23 Dec 17 - 08:33 AM

Sorry, I mean "said Granddad" if it's Daideó.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Thompson
Date: 23 Dec 17 - 08:32 AM

I don't, but it's "Mammy's coming, said Daddy, Mammy is coming" and it's really Tá Mamaí ag teacht. Unless it's Tá Mamaí san teach, or "Mammy's in the house".

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: mayomick
Date: 23 Dec 17 - 08:05 AM

When I moved to Ireland I heard a friend’s five year old singing “Ta mamai is teach , duirt dadio ta mamai’s is teach” ( not sure if that’s the right gaelic, I still cant speak it ! ) . It was to the same tune as a football chant used to be sung in England.”We won the cup ee I addio we won the cup”The addio bit is “daddio” as gailge ,the teach sounded like “cup”. (It could be the case that the Irish kid’s song was taken from the English football chant by the Irish nianra , mind you .I’ve tried to find a link to the song Do you know the one I’m talking about?)

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: mayomick
Date: 23 Dec 17 - 07:48 AM

as I said , I didn't know that the "bainne na mbó is na gamhna" chorus meant anything until I started to learn a cupla focal . I grew up in England . How many in the Appalachian mountains would have immediately recognised that they were singing a corrupted version of siúl a rún? Had you asked some good ol' boy a hundred years ago they would   have said "'t'ain't supposed to mean nothing , just a bit a ol' time mouth music." I imagine so anyway lol!

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Thompson
Date: 23 Dec 17 - 06:59 AM

Yeah, but anyone hearing banya na mo etc will immediately recognise it as bainne na mbó is na gamhna (the milk of the cow and the heifer), and shule a roo as siúl a rún (go, my darling) and so on.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: mayomick
Date: 23 Dec 17 - 06:03 AM

I'm not so sure,Thompson .Mouth music as sang in English language Irish songs could in some instances have been attempts at imitating the old gaelic. The first Google search entry for the song Juice Of The Barley For Me gives the chorus as:
" Singing banya na mo if an ganna. And the juice of the barley for me."
That's the way I always used to sing it thinking it was just mouth music .
Check out the Buttermilk Hill chorus as sung by Peter Paul and Mary:
Shule, shule, shule-a-roo
Shule-a-rak-shak, shule-a-ba-ba-coo
See this link for how the original Gaelic chorus became "splendidly mangled" :
https://mainlynorfolk.info/folk/songs/shuleagra.html

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Thompson
Date: 21 Dec 17 - 05:38 PM

Má 'sea = If it be so

Ring dum a doorum da = mouth music of the kind that's used in singing all over the world, like the scat (skat?) in American black city music, like Cab Calloway's Hidey hidey hidey hi, hodey hodey hodey ho, heedey heedey heedy he, skiddly-boom skiddly-ba skiddly… umm, he loses me at that stage. But that's what it is. Vocal play, just for fun.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: mayomick
Date: 21 Dec 17 - 07:52 AM

If it does mean anything it would be more like a corruption of “rince (rinka) do mo da “ I'd have thought . Dance to your daddy

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Dec 17 - 07:55 PM

Meaning of "musha ring dumma do dumma da" in the song "Whiskey in the Jar"

From:http://www.irishgaelictranslator.com/translation/topic82172.html

Post February 19 2009, 6:54 AM by CaoimhínSF

Muise (spelling varies) is an Irish expression of frustration with no actual meaning, but usually said at the beginning of sentences with varying meanings like "heck", "darn", "the hell with it", "f-word", or just "Aargh!".

I think it might be: Muise, rinne mé díom amadán. Means: F---, I made a fool [out] of myself.

Similar from: https://johnaffeymuseum.tumblr.com/post/102105659364/the-eiderhare-1-a-childs-charm-here-we-see-a

This is similar to several Irish folk songs in which seemingly nonsensical lines are arguably corrupted Gaelic. One such is Whiskey in the Jar, where the repeated line “Musha ring dum-a do dum-a da” is likely a ‘Hobson-Jobson’ of the Gaelic “Muise, rinne mé díom amadán” (“Damn, I made a fool of myself”), or similar.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Lighter
Date: 22 Feb 14 - 02:23 PM

Except that it's clearly "whack fol the daddy o."

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,Gary
Date: 22 Feb 14 - 11:53 AM

"Whack" is an old sailor's term for daily ration, which included all food and water, (and for a while, rum.)

If "daddy-o" could refer to the singer (as in "Come to Papa,) then "Whack for my daddy-o" might roughly translate to "I have all that I need, because there's whiskey in the jar."

As for the "Musha ringum ...," that's what brought me here.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,bmwwxman
Date: 01 Dec 12 - 07:21 PM

The translation of the chorus is:

"This ought to keep you bloody Yanks scratching your heads for years to come"

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,3m
Date: 06 Jun 12 - 09:31 AM

i always thought it was " put a ring on your finger ma da" "wait for my daddio" "wait for my daddio , there's whiskey in the jar o" sounds a reads so much better

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,Johnimo
Date: 18 Jan 12 - 09:15 PM

I feel certain, being myself a lover of Mr. John Barleycorn, that the refrain in question, "Musha ringum duram da, Whack fol de daddy-o," and so forth refers explicity to the thrashing and processing of the barley, wheat, and other grains necessary for the production of the "Whiskey in the Jar." Once must confess however -- after all this analysis -- it's a mighty fine song, sure 'nuff.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,kiwipunk
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 10:58 PM

im a kiwi of irish descent, my grandmother was from galway and a gaelic speaker, my grandfather was born here but had come from a long line of only irish, 7 generations in fact, im 9th.
he didnt really speak gaelic but he was a staunch republican and liked a drink with the lads, he said to me that 'musha rig darum do damada' is gaelic for 'oh well, i fucked up' and that 'whack fol de daddio' is 'drink to your fathers/ancestors' referring to those that died fighting the english, as the hero of the song is resigning himself to doing, now that he is an outlaw.
he actually asked my grandmother for clarification on that, she concurred saying its nonsense words but must have meant something like that originally, before getting mashed by non-gaelic speakers...

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,Zero
Date: 29 Dec 10 - 10:33 PM

I'm going to take a shot at this. Take it with a grain of salt. All these people British or Cornish, Celtic or Cymric, engaged in word play of all sorts. Rhyming slang, double meaning, etc . . . they're singing in a language not their own, English. A lot of phonetics are in play. Not saying they were illiterate. Often people back in the day were more literate than people now, in many way. But you don't have to read music to come up with a song anymore than you have to be Shakespeare to write a poem. If you listen to a child pronounce a word without knowing the spelling it comes out a bit funny sometimes. Same as when Japanese borrow foreign words. Sometimes you have to get a little creative to get what the original word was. Remember even the Irish in the film Snatch had trouble understanding Brad Pitt's Pikey character. If you've ever hung out drinking with someone with a strong accent of any kind you know what I mean. So it isn't much of a stretch to turn 'Work For The Devil' into 'Whack Fal the Diddle'. Drink a few whiskeys, and "Must Have" quickly become "Musta" and finally "Musha". I'm not saying that's what it is. Remember when writing a song it doesn't matter what it means to anyone but the author, as long as it sounds good. The Melvins write unintelligible lyrics all the time. Maybe it means something to them, but they probably prefer that it isn't understood. John Lennon found out college professors had students analyze Beatle songs, so he put in more nonsense than usual, that's how you get I Am The Walrus. Could be a song about someone's mustache. Out of Boyo you get Boy. Someone said, Daddy-O means Grandfather. Makes sense to me, since O, just like Mc or Mac means Of, or Son Of. Here's the question... does he mean his real Grandfather, or Grandfather in a kindly was, or just some old fool? Wrap your head around that one. And then drink a couple of whiskeys and try to figure out the lyrics from a writer's perspective while switching between Gaelic, Brythonic & Alcoholic. You'll find all sorts of new meanings! ; )

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,Brian McGuire
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 02:32 PM

The "Musha ring un do um a da" and the "Whack fol ma daddy-o (or laddie-o)" WERE originally Gaelic, they are just a phonetic pronunciation of the original Gaelic.
Now here's where you have to take it on faith; I KNOW that they are both originally Gaelic because I've seen the traditional lyrics both in a friends book of Celtic music AND on a folk song web site a couple years ago.
My memory is fuzzy but I think Declan had the first part right with "Bainne na mBó ins na gamhna" because I remember the original Gaelic looking absolutely nothing like the song sounds.
Unfortunately I don't remember the name of the web site I saw it on, so I might as well be telling you that I saw Bigfoot. I think I followed the link from a RenFest performers web site. If I can find it again I will post the link on here.

Cheers,
Brian

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,justjosh
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 02:30 AM

Here is a gem I found on another similar post:

"Musha ring um a do um a da" is very very similar sounding to these Irish words:
Musha => M'uishe (my whiskey)
ring um a => rinne me/ (rinne = past tense of "de/an" which is "do, make, perform, carry out, commit, turn out, reach, establish"; me/ = "I, me")
do => don (from "do" + "an" = "to the, for the")
um a da => amada/n (fool)

which translates to "I made my whiskey for the fool."

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,Jay
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 08:28 PM

M'uishe rinne me don amada - Whiskey made me a fool, or Whiskey made a fool of me.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: MartinRyan
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 10:54 AM

Hi denisha

It would be a lovely story if true but I'm afraid.... it's not.

Regards

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,Denisha Shae
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 12:40 PM

I looked it up and the phrase in fact does have a meaning... It's derived from the Irish language... Basically meaning "Whiskey for the fool", or "Whiskey for me, the fool".

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 12:52 AM

karma?

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 09:25 AM

So if the story's about his misses dobbing him in to the captain could it not be just "Wait for my daddy, oh, there's whiskey in the jar"?
Inviting him to wait and get hammered on the whiskey until the captain arrives?

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,Roy
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 02:39 PM

Gee....I am glad we got that all cleared up. And wish I had known the meaning of that before I recorded the song. Well, MUSHA !!!!

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,an aussie muso
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 01:54 PM

if musha is "if it is so/it shall be" it makes sense, i've been told "whack" is to have a drink for somebody ie toast, daddy-o means grandfather, so to lament the grandfather (after being caught with the booty), who probably taught son/grandson their wicked ways, makes sense to me.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Big Elk
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 01:10 PM

The lyrics are easy to translate.

Drink 4 pints of Guinness followed by ½ a bottle of Powers.

The lyrics make perfect sense.

The challenge is in remembering the answer once you sober up.

Jokes aside the tradition includes mouth music, that is a collection of near random noises, to which people used to dance, perhaps with simple percussion at best. In Scot's Irish and English traditions perhaps some of the more obscure re occurring phrases could have their origins in this form.

Don't question it, enjoy it, it is what it is.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: trevek
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 04:57 PM

Poppagator, wasn't it Macushla? Yes, it means "My darling". Lots of songs with it in the title or chorus.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: meself
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 10:53 AM

And it is curious that someone would suppose that some other, generic, site would trump this one on questions of folksong arcana ...

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 10:08 AM

People are always claiming that such-and-such a thing has been 'banned' by somebody or other, but they never seem to be able to produce a shred of evidence. Such claims, though widely believed, are usually just old wives' tales; 'modern myths' if you prefer. I would be astonished if the BBC had ever 'banned' Dougie MacLean's innocuous song, though its adoption as a campaign song by the SNP may well have meant that it wasn't played much on air during elections. The BBC has a statutory duty to be politically neutral, and would have to avoid appearing to favour one party over another.

The comment 'Robert Andrew Jaffray' quoted was copied from a pseudonymous post to 'Yahoo Answers' (Phillipines branch, apparently) made by somebody who (in that particular case) didn't know what they were talking about. It may be that Robert didn't read much of this discussion before posting to it; but he certainly isn't alone in that, unfortunately. The internet is the most effective way of spreading misinformation ever devised: 'I got this off the web' is usually best read as 'Ignore the following'.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 08:16 AM

Didn't the Beeb ban the playing of Caledonia during the first swelling of Scots national feeling?

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,VOlgadon
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 02:48 PM

I thought music being banned was a bit of an urban legend.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 12:49 PM

While we're on the subject, what does Wop boppa loopa ba lop bam boom mean?

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 12:20 PM

Steve in County Chatham

Me mum told me "musha" means donkey balls, but I'm not real sure on that one.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,Robert Andrew Jaffray
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 11:58 AM

I got this off the web...The words themselves have no meaning. An old singing tradition in Ireland is lilting, diddling or sometimes called mouth music. When the language and music were banned the Irish improvised the sound of instruments with their voice and lilting became an art. Many Irish and Scottish ballads written in English have some of these 'nonsense' words or lilts added. It is also akin to Swiss yodeling.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 01:16 PM

Sorry about throwing in 'The Sporting Hero' red herring. It's actually just another broadside title for WITJ. What could be relevant though is that the WITJ could be the music hall title based on the earlier broadside title TSH hence designating the tune from the broadside version.
IMHO the words of the chorus on the GBB broadside fit well enough to the current tune if you slow it down to Denny Bartley speed. I would suggest that like many old songs the tempo has been much jazzed up for modern-day ears a-la Thin Lizzie.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: PoppaGator
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 02:43 AM

Aha ~ "sense it all," indeed...

It occurred to me, when first watching Clint Eastwood's film Million Dollar Baby a couple of years ago, that the professional nickname his trainer/manager character gives to Hilary Swank's woman-boxer character ~ "Mi-coosh-la" {that's phonetic} ~ sounds quite similar to "musha" [ringum durum da]. Could there be a possible connection?

It's some sort of term of endearment, like "sweetheart," etc. Clint's character carries around an Irih-language textbook that he's studying, and the word is spelled correctly on the back of his boxer's green-and-gold robe. But I don't remember the Gaelic spelling, just the pronunciation...

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 02:14 AM

It's an old joke PoppaGator, there was a certain late folk comedian in the UK who used to say it about words that had no particular meaning, the word sensitol comes from a certain condom packet ' sensitol lubricated ' which itself is a bit meaningless.

eric

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: PoppaGator
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 05:10 PM

That GBB version is pretty interesting; the verses are a bit different from most of the current-day ones I've encountered, but fit the familar tune just about right. However, the GBB's nonsense-syllable chorus doesn't scan/fit nearly as well.

I have no knowledge of "The Sporting Hero" tune. Might we assume that it's significantly different from the "Whiskey in the Jar" melody with which most of us are familiar today?

I'm reminded that my very first Mudcat post ~ under my real name, before I became PoppaGator ~ was about this song. It must be somewhere among those "Related threads" listed at the top of the page.