Origins: Musha ringum duram da...

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 04:45 PM

There is an 1850 printing of the music hall version, referred to by Malcolm, on the Glasgow Broadside Ballads website. Just Google GBB and it should come up if you scroll down the first page a little.
It was printed by the Glasgow Poet's Box. the designated tune is 'The Sporting Hero' and the chorus runs:-

Mush a ring a do a da fal lal da do da addy
Mush a ring a do a da there's whiskey in the jar.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 12:22 PM

It might be as productive to have a thread explaining the linguistic and philological origins of Louis Armstrong's scat singing.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: PoppaGator
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 11:03 AM

"Musha, it's gaelic for ' sensitol ' "

Thanks, Eric. I hate to betray my own ignorance, but what does "sensitol" mean?

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 03:59 AM

So musha is a Gaelic word, fine, as I think the principle in writing anything cod, is to use a word or two people associate with whatver it is you are parodying! ALLLLLL Irishmen use musha, don't you see. As for proper pronunciation, there isn't any!!!!

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 03:15 AM

Musha, it's gaelic for ' sensitol '

eric

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,mickey the mope
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 06:32 PM

My dear sainted grandmother from County Waterford always said "Musha, musha,musha" when she saw people kissing on tv.

I am now watching the movie Mary Poppins and in the carousel/hunt scene a hunted fox ( who is Irish) says "Oh Musha!" when he notices he is being pursued. After reading all the comments I am thinking that "Musha" means "Well!" or "Indeed!"

p.s. the movie is good as you remember

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Big Phil
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 10:16 AM

Its a fine song whatever chorus you prefer.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,FINGON
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 09:52 AM

BEN HALL OF AUSTRALIAN FAME IS THE HIGHWAY MAN FROM THE ABERCROMBIE MOUNTAINS MENTIONED IN THE FOLKSONGS, RESTING PLACE OF AUSTRALIAS LARGEST GOLD HEIST AND SECRET SONG , WHISKEY IN THE JAR . AT THAT PERIOD OF 1864 THE ABERCROMBIE MOUNTAINS WAS FAMOUS FOR BANDITS AND HIDING AREAS FOR ALL REBELS AND OUTLAWS OF THE OLD SCHOOL. MANY GAELIC FAMILYS OF THE WEST COAST OF IRELAND AND SCOTLAND LIVED IN THESE RANGES. MANY CAPTIANS WHO WERE ALSO LARGE LANDOWNERS AND TROOPERS OF THE COLONYS STATE WERE FOR EVER TRYING TO GOVERN THESE PEOPLE WHO WOULD HIDE OUTLAWS AS IF THEY WERE FAMILY. BEN HALL WAS A STYLISH HIGHWAY MAN WHO WAS OFTEN IN FOLKSONGS OF THAT ERA. LEGEND HAS IT THE FORBES STAGECOACH GOLD IS HIDDEN IN A CREEK BED IN THE ABERCROMBIE BY HALLS GIRLFRIEND AND FAMILYFRIENDS. FACT OR FICTION!!! TO THE GROG SHANTY AND A ANOTHER WHISKEY IN THE JARRO, ME OLD MATES OF THE ABERCROMBIE MOUNTAINS? WHACK FOR ME DADDYO, WHACK FOR ME DADDYO!!! ANYWAY GOT TO GO, WHERE NOT ALL BUSH WHACKERS, SOME DO STAND AND DELIVER!!!???!!!

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: PoppaGator
Date: 03 Jul 07 - 05:18 PM

TJ, you are entirely ON base; this is an example of singing "without using actual words."

I think that the only essential difference between "scat" and the kind of nonsense syllables found in this and many other folksongs is that the word "scat" usually refers to improvised passages, where both the syllables and the melody are made up on the spot for "one-time use," whereas a nonsense-syllable refrain is normally exactly the same (or essentially so, at least) at the end of each verse.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 03 Jul 07 - 04:59 PM

I could be way off base, and invite contrarians to respond in case I am. However, having heard any number of Irish tunes with such syllables inserted into verses or ending them, I find it eerily akin to scat singing in the US - a sort of rhythmic extension of the piece, without using actual words.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: PoppaGator
Date: 03 Jul 07 - 02:09 PM

Lots about "musha," not so much about "daddy-o"/"laddie-o."

I accept that it's a nonsense chorus, but I'd still like to learn how to pronounce and sing it "authentically," or at least closely enough not to embarrasss myself.

In my very limited experience of Ireland ~ a one-week visit four Augusts ago ~ I heard a few renditions of this old favorite, and no one performer pronounced these nonsense-chorus syllables exactly the same as any other. A trio I heard in Lisdoonvarna gave perhaps the most remarkable interpretation, featuring consonant sounds completely alien to the English language (which I surmise must have been Gaelic). My reaction was that anything I myself was unable to pronounce was very likely to be authentic, something I might do well to try learning.

This discussion reminds of a similar thread about the Mardi Gras Indians and some of their phrases, like "Jockamo fee nah nay" (or "fee on day," the preferred Ninth Ward pronunciation) and "Honda Wonda Yo Mama," etc., which may once have had literal meanings that no one knows any longer, and which may or may not come from French/African/Creole/Choctaw patois. No one has any firm answers, there is no one "correct" version, but a discerning listener can still tell the difference between a true insider's vocal performance and a poorly-informed imitator's.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 02 Jul 07 - 07:55 PM

Years ago, I performed that song frequently. Then, one fine day, a friend of mine, who was a radio announcer with a deep, stentorian voice, delivered the words as if he were reading them on the evening news - with gravitas and careful pronunciation. I was never able to see "Whiskey in the Jar" in quite the same way afterward.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,periko
Date: 02 Jul 07 - 05:39 PM

what a load of crap to ridiculize one serious question. i read an interesting interpretation on the "meanings"forum by patrick sheenan: "m'uishe rinne me don amadan" meaning... well... why don't you go there yourself if you 'd like to know... and about the origin: somewhere between the uk and the usa i'd guess; during a period of moral decay, anytime from 1499 'till 1899. most likely "knocked together" by some alcoholic would-be-outlaw male kaukasian illiterate singer-songmaker. red hair, blue eyes. paranoïd. iq ca 75 (can't tell jenny from molly). his enormous moodswings, fear of abandonment, leaning towards addiction and impulsive behaviour combined with blaming external factors for his awkward situation point in the direction of a borderliner avant la lettre.
"must you real dumb and do the madder" was his mantra, which he compulsively had to produce every minute of the day (night).

www.periko61.nl

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,Bardan
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 04:16 PM

I think if you play that song backwards, you'll find that the nonsense bit turns into 'hail satan, I offer unto thee bitten off bat's heads' or something.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 08:07 AM

"Meself, you surprise me. Do calves REALLY eat at your table?"

I hold with the enlightened notion that animals are our equals if not superiors - not only do the calves, cows, bulls, sheep, horses and chickens eat at the table, but I wait on them hand and hoof. By the way, there's nothing they enjoy more after a hearty repast than a rousing chorus of Whiskey in the Jar ...

(The pigs insist on dining in separate quarters ... they have their own ways ... ).

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Declan
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 06:37 AM

On reflection I think the line is actually "Bainne na mBó ins na gamhna" which means cows milk in the calves" - in other words - milk is for calves, I'll drink whiskey.

Gamhna definitely means calves, the word for goat is Gabhar, pronounced (sort of) like Gower, so close but incorrect.

Back to the thread ...

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Gurney
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 03:05 AM

Meself, you surprise me. Do calves REALLY eat at your table?

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 11:35 PM

Good one, sorefingers!

As for, "but couldn't drink calves milk. Only a calf could" - not necessarily: calves are remarkably gullible - it would be easy as saying, with some urgency, "Look over there!", and when the curley-headed little fellow does so, you snatch his milk right off the table, and Bob's your uncle ... (and he's off feeding the pigs) ...

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 11:10 PM

It means, 'Musha' = would you please, 'Ringum' = ringup or order or charge, 'Durum' = two rums, and Dah = Father or Pappy.

So the locquant in a nice way is requesting his sire to put up two rums.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Gurney
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 09:09 PM

Thanks, Declan. 37 years ago, now.
However, it occurs to me that this translation makes less sense than the other, since a man could drink cows and goats milk and whiskey, but couldn't drink calves milk. Only a calf could.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Declan
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 04:23 PM

Gurney,

Bainne na Mbó is na gamhna, means the milk of the cow and the calves -it is definitely an Irish (gaelic) phrase.

The phrase under discussion here is nonsense however.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Jim Lad
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 03:03 AM

Actually, it's Inuit.
                     Ring, Dummado & Dummada are the three slowest dogs. Whackfolthedaddyo may be the destination. Not too sure what "There's Whiskeyinthejar" means. Could be a sled operator going the other way.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Gurney
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 02:24 AM

I'll vote with Malcolm Douglas and Ms.Amy. I asked the same question about a different song of a long-ago flatmate who 'had the Gaelic.'
My chorus was 'Ban yu na mor iffen ghana, and the juice of the barley for me!'
After about 20 reiterations, John translated it as "The milk of the cow and the goat, and the...."


I wouldn't argue with someone who had five languages and two doctorates. Bloody useless with tools, but.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,Ms.Amy
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 01:48 AM

Hmm.. well i'm thinking that this phrase probably did have a mean once... and maybe somebody somewhere still knows what they line actually said... BUT Seeing as most all who were to sing the song was Drunk off their sorry bums... i'm sure whoever picked it up and brought it elsewhere than where it was from probably misunderstood the slurrs.. of the irish or english or british or whoevers drunkin soul was singing the song.. My question is why do they sya Whack?? See here is the chorus :    Musha ringum duram da
            whack! for the laddie-O
            whack! for the laddie-O
          there's whiskey in the jar

And another question how is it sung? the tune i mean..

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: slowerairs
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 07:04 PM

Musha, was a word regularly used by my mother and grandmother, usually when giving sympathy to someone. I only ever heard it used in that vein. Both were from Galway.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Greg B
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 03:03 PM

My Grandma (from West Leigh, Lancs. nee Hamill) used 'musha!'
as her favorite expletive. Said often and with varying degrees of
emphasis. When I was old enough to understand such things,
it seemed to me that it was roughly the equivalent of 'shit!'
in American parlance, though properly more mild and ladylike,
as she was loath to refer to excrement except as a 'jobbie.'

Her parents, from whom she presumably acquired it, were Welsh
and Irish.

Until this thread, I hadn't connected it with anything Celtic,
but she must have had it from her Irish relatives.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Bernard
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 01:55 PM

I suspect it's a cunning coded message from another planet...

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 03:27 PM

Bull duram tobacco in the little cloth sack!

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Paul Burke
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 07:11 AM

It's also the kind of wheat they make pasta out of.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Bernard
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 06:57 AM

Oh yes... forgot about that. It's where the Pink Panther lives!

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 06:54 AM

Duram is a city in north east England.

eric

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Bernard
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 06:52 AM

'Musha' probably refers to the kind of peas sold by UK chip shops, 'ringum' indicates they take telephone orders, 'duram' is a miss-spelled kind of wheat used for making pasta...

So the whole thing is about fast food - just what people look for when they've partaken of whiskey from the jar...

Seems simple enough to me!!

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Amos
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 02:12 AM

The fact that "musha" has some possible meaning such as "Well...." does not mean that "musha ringum duram da" has any meaning at all, which I am willing to bet it has not nor ever had. "To me right fa la" begins with not one but THREE English words, all of which have clear meanings, and the whole means less sense than a cackle in a henhouse.


A

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 09:53 PM

What? Obviously brought back by some veteran of the first British invasion of Afganistan. He was clobbered on the side of the head which resulted in ringing therein, and he was explaining it to his Da - OK, forget it.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,Duane
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 08:05 PM

I have read many explanations for the origins of this line. It seems to me that perhaps it started as an old irish saying and indeed perhaps evolved into something else.
Whenever I play this song I explain to the audience that the chorus is irish for "No shit, There i was!" which may not be accurate but it sounds good to people who don't know any better.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,krazymummy
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 03:08 PM

WoW !!    ??

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Paul Burke
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 05:55 AM

And also in any chip shop in northern england; musha peas.

Blame Sean McGuire for my spelling of the song name, that's how it is on one of his records.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,Joe_F
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 09:07 PM

"Musha" also appears in "The Night before Larry Was Stretched": "Then, musha! his colour turned white".

--- Joe Fineman    [e-mail]

||: All men would be cowards if they durst. :||

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 08:00 PM

The song, as it stands, appears to have been written for the early music hall; and in Scotland (or even England), rather than Ireland (see various other threads on the subject); although it was evidently based on an earlier, Irish broadside song about a real event that took place in Ireland. That, however, did not contain the familiar chorus.

It may well be that the "cod-Irish" of the music hall song is based on a genuine Irish Gaelic phrase. That doesn't necessarily mean that it was understood as such by whoever wrote the song, or by their audience; or that whatever meaning the phrase may have had in other contexts is relevant to any examination of this particular case.

It's certainly interesting, though. The 19th century popular stage produced vast quantities of "Irish-style" songs, particularly in England and America, many of which included "cod-Irish" expressions and phrases. Some can reasonably be interpreted as deriving from real Gaelic; many more cannot, without very agile jumps of imagination.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Brían
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 05:43 PM

I believe the expression you are looking for is, 'Sé fath mo bhuartha, which translates to, "'Tis the reason for my sorrow." Buartha also means sorrow.

Brían

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Windsinger
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 02:21 PM

(Note to self: stop trying to do HTML first thing in the morning. Second post in a bloody row that's gone wacky-format like that...)

Sorry for the eye strain, y'all.

Slán,

~Fionn

www.geocities.com/children_of_lir

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Arnie
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 10:25 AM

I was told by a Volcan some years ago that it's actually from the Klingon and means 'Are those dilithium crystals ready yet?' The bit about There's Whiskey in the Jar was added by Scottie at a much later date.

Live Long and Prosper

Arnold Spock

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Windsinger
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 09:28 AM

You may have sussed it. :) "Mhuire, Mhuire!" does sound like "Mary, Mary!"

As for the meaning of the song title Se Fearr Mo Mhuire, that's tougher. Fearr -- two "r"'s, as opposed to fear (man) -- is a superlative meaning "better" or "preferable"; beyond that, you got me.

I have a friend who's a lot more fluent, I can ask him.

("Sorrow"/"sadness" is brón, BTW.)

Slán,

~Fionn

www.geocities.com/children_of_lir

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Paul Burke
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 08:39 AM

wurra? How about mhuire, as in se fearr mo mhuire? I think that translates as this is my sorrow, but according to the online dictionary, muire means charge.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,HughM
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 08:05 AM

I saw "musha" written as "muise" (in the song "Peigin mo Chroi) and an Irish workmate told me it was an introductory word implying a relaxed attitude on the part of the speaker, so "well" would be the nearest equivalent in English.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Windsinger
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 07:21 AM

Muise! ("Musha!") is commonly translated as "indeed!" or "Oh my!"

Two possible origins given, are that it's either a euphamism for Muire (Mary, as in "the Virgin") or a worn-down version of Má 's ea? ("is that so?")

It's got a lot in common with "wurra, wurra!" -- a phrase that's a lot harder to cough up an etymology for.

Slán,

~Fionn

www.geocities.com/children_of_lir

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,J C
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 04:35 AM

Musha - from amossa or mossa = well, well!!

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 01:04 AM

None of you have explained the meaning. Zero marks.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Tannywheeler
Date: 05 Jan 06 - 10:58 AM

When I see it written I hear it sung. The chorus ends, "...There's whiskey in the jar."   It's a party/pub song that's a long (repeated) invitation to have a(nother) drink. Seems like....Tw

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: s&r
Date: 05 Jan 06 - 04:54 AM

Perhaps 'Musha' is used as 'to me (right fol lol...)' or 'with a' ..
The introductory phrase can have meaning - the following syllables may or may not

Stu