Origins: Musha ringum duram da...

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Gurney
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 09:09 PM

Thanks, Declan. 37 years ago, now.
However, it occurs to me that this translation makes less sense than the other, since a man could drink cows and goats milk and whiskey, but couldn't drink calves milk. Only a calf could.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 11:10 PM

It means, 'Musha' = would you please, 'Ringum' = ringup or order or charge, 'Durum' = two rums, and Dah = Father or Pappy.

So the locquant in a nice way is requesting his sire to put up two rums.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 11:35 PM

Good one, sorefingers!

As for, "but couldn't drink calves milk. Only a calf could" - not necessarily: calves are remarkably gullible - it would be easy as saying, with some urgency, "Look over there!", and when the curley-headed little fellow does so, you snatch his milk right off the table, and Bob's your uncle ... (and he's off feeding the pigs) ...

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Gurney
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 03:05 AM

Meself, you surprise me. Do calves REALLY eat at your table?

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Declan
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 06:37 AM

On reflection I think the line is actually "Bainne na mBó ins na gamhna" which means cows milk in the calves" - in other words - milk is for calves, I'll drink whiskey.

Gamhna definitely means calves, the word for goat is Gabhar, pronounced (sort of) like Gower, so close but incorrect.

Back to the thread ...

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 08:07 AM

"Meself, you surprise me. Do calves REALLY eat at your table?"

I hold with the enlightened notion that animals are our equals if not superiors - not only do the calves, cows, bulls, sheep, horses and chickens eat at the table, but I wait on them hand and hoof. By the way, there's nothing they enjoy more after a hearty repast than a rousing chorus of Whiskey in the Jar ...

(The pigs insist on dining in separate quarters ... they have their own ways ... ).

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,Bardan
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 04:16 PM

I think if you play that song backwards, you'll find that the nonsense bit turns into 'hail satan, I offer unto thee bitten off bat's heads' or something.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,periko
Date: 02 Jul 07 - 05:39 PM

what a load of crap to ridiculize one serious question. i read an interesting interpretation on the "meanings"forum by patrick sheenan: "m'uishe rinne me don amadan" meaning... well... why don't you go there yourself if you 'd like to know... and about the origin: somewhere between the uk and the usa i'd guess; during a period of moral decay, anytime from 1499 'till 1899. most likely "knocked together" by some alcoholic would-be-outlaw male kaukasian illiterate singer-songmaker. red hair, blue eyes. paranoïd. iq ca 75 (can't tell jenny from molly). his enormous moodswings, fear of abandonment, leaning towards addiction and impulsive behaviour combined with blaming external factors for his awkward situation point in the direction of a borderliner avant la lettre.
"must you real dumb and do the madder" was his mantra, which he compulsively had to produce every minute of the day (night).

www.periko61.nl

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 02 Jul 07 - 07:55 PM

Years ago, I performed that song frequently. Then, one fine day, a friend of mine, who was a radio announcer with a deep, stentorian voice, delivered the words as if he were reading them on the evening news - with gravitas and careful pronunciation. I was never able to see "Whiskey in the Jar" in quite the same way afterward.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: PoppaGator
Date: 03 Jul 07 - 02:09 PM

Lots about "musha," not so much about "daddy-o"/"laddie-o."

I accept that it's a nonsense chorus, but I'd still like to learn how to pronounce and sing it "authentically," or at least closely enough not to embarrasss myself.

In my very limited experience of Ireland ~ a one-week visit four Augusts ago ~ I heard a few renditions of this old favorite, and no one performer pronounced these nonsense-chorus syllables exactly the same as any other. A trio I heard in Lisdoonvarna gave perhaps the most remarkable interpretation, featuring consonant sounds completely alien to the English language (which I surmise must have been Gaelic). My reaction was that anything I myself was unable to pronounce was very likely to be authentic, something I might do well to try learning.

This discussion reminds of a similar thread about the Mardi Gras Indians and some of their phrases, like "Jockamo fee nah nay" (or "fee on day," the preferred Ninth Ward pronunciation) and "Honda Wonda Yo Mama," etc., which may once have had literal meanings that no one knows any longer, and which may or may not come from French/African/Creole/Choctaw patois. No one has any firm answers, there is no one "correct" version, but a discerning listener can still tell the difference between a true insider's vocal performance and a poorly-informed imitator's.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 03 Jul 07 - 04:59 PM

I could be way off base, and invite contrarians to respond in case I am. However, having heard any number of Irish tunes with such syllables inserted into verses or ending them, I find it eerily akin to scat singing in the US - a sort of rhythmic extension of the piece, without using actual words.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: PoppaGator
Date: 03 Jul 07 - 05:18 PM

TJ, you are entirely ON base; this is an example of singing "without using actual words."

I think that the only essential difference between "scat" and the kind of nonsense syllables found in this and many other folksongs is that the word "scat" usually refers to improvised passages, where both the syllables and the melody are made up on the spot for "one-time use," whereas a nonsense-syllable refrain is normally exactly the same (or essentially so, at least) at the end of each verse.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,FINGON
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 09:52 AM

BEN HALL OF AUSTRALIAN FAME IS THE HIGHWAY MAN FROM THE ABERCROMBIE MOUNTAINS MENTIONED IN THE FOLKSONGS, RESTING PLACE OF AUSTRALIAS LARGEST GOLD HEIST AND SECRET SONG , WHISKEY IN THE JAR . AT THAT PERIOD OF 1864 THE ABERCROMBIE MOUNTAINS WAS FAMOUS FOR BANDITS AND HIDING AREAS FOR ALL REBELS AND OUTLAWS OF THE OLD SCHOOL. MANY GAELIC FAMILYS OF THE WEST COAST OF IRELAND AND SCOTLAND LIVED IN THESE RANGES. MANY CAPTIANS WHO WERE ALSO LARGE LANDOWNERS AND TROOPERS OF THE COLONYS STATE WERE FOR EVER TRYING TO GOVERN THESE PEOPLE WHO WOULD HIDE OUTLAWS AS IF THEY WERE FAMILY. BEN HALL WAS A STYLISH HIGHWAY MAN WHO WAS OFTEN IN FOLKSONGS OF THAT ERA. LEGEND HAS IT THE FORBES STAGECOACH GOLD IS HIDDEN IN A CREEK BED IN THE ABERCROMBIE BY HALLS GIRLFRIEND AND FAMILYFRIENDS. FACT OR FICTION!!! TO THE GROG SHANTY AND A ANOTHER WHISKEY IN THE JARRO, ME OLD MATES OF THE ABERCROMBIE MOUNTAINS? WHACK FOR ME DADDYO, WHACK FOR ME DADDYO!!! ANYWAY GOT TO GO, WHERE NOT ALL BUSH WHACKERS, SOME DO STAND AND DELIVER!!!???!!!

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Big Phil
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 10:16 AM

Its a fine song whatever chorus you prefer.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,mickey the mope
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 06:32 PM

My dear sainted grandmother from County Waterford always said "Musha, musha,musha" when she saw people kissing on tv.

I am now watching the movie Mary Poppins and in the carousel/hunt scene a hunted fox ( who is Irish) says "Oh Musha!" when he notices he is being pursued. After reading all the comments I am thinking that "Musha" means "Well!" or "Indeed!"

p.s. the movie is good as you remember

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 03:15 AM

Musha, it's gaelic for ' sensitol '

eric

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 03:59 AM

So musha is a Gaelic word, fine, as I think the principle in writing anything cod, is to use a word or two people associate with whatver it is you are parodying! ALLLLLL Irishmen use musha, don't you see. As for proper pronunciation, there isn't any!!!!

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: PoppaGator
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 11:03 AM

"Musha, it's gaelic for ' sensitol ' "

Thanks, Eric. I hate to betray my own ignorance, but what does "sensitol" mean?

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 12:22 PM

It might be as productive to have a thread explaining the linguistic and philological origins of Louis Armstrong's scat singing.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 04:45 PM

There is an 1850 printing of the music hall version, referred to by Malcolm, on the Glasgow Broadside Ballads website. Just Google GBB and it should come up if you scroll down the first page a little.
It was printed by the Glasgow Poet's Box. the designated tune is 'The Sporting Hero' and the chorus runs:-

Mush a ring a do a da fal lal da do da addy
Mush a ring a do a da there's whiskey in the jar.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: PoppaGator
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 05:10 PM

That GBB version is pretty interesting; the verses are a bit different from most of the current-day ones I've encountered, but fit the familar tune just about right. However, the GBB's nonsense-syllable chorus doesn't scan/fit nearly as well.

I have no knowledge of "The Sporting Hero" tune. Might we assume that it's significantly different from the "Whiskey in the Jar" melody with which most of us are familiar today?

I'm reminded that my very first Mudcat post ~ under my real name, before I became PoppaGator ~ was about this song. It must be somewhere among those "Related threads" listed at the top of the page.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 02:14 AM

It's an old joke PoppaGator, there was a certain late folk comedian in the UK who used to say it about words that had no particular meaning, the word sensitol comes from a certain condom packet ' sensitol lubricated ' which itself is a bit meaningless.

eric

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: PoppaGator
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 02:43 AM

Aha ~ "sense it all," indeed...

It occurred to me, when first watching Clint Eastwood's film Million Dollar Baby a couple of years ago, that the professional nickname his trainer/manager character gives to Hilary Swank's woman-boxer character ~ "Mi-coosh-la" {that's phonetic} ~ sounds quite similar to "musha" [ringum durum da]. Could there be a possible connection?

It's some sort of term of endearment, like "sweetheart," etc. Clint's character carries around an Irih-language textbook that he's studying, and the word is spelled correctly on the back of his boxer's green-and-gold robe. But I don't remember the Gaelic spelling, just the pronunciation...

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 01:16 PM

Sorry about throwing in 'The Sporting Hero' red herring. It's actually just another broadside title for WITJ. What could be relevant though is that the WITJ could be the music hall title based on the earlier broadside title TSH hence designating the tune from the broadside version.
IMHO the words of the chorus on the GBB broadside fit well enough to the current tune if you slow it down to Denny Bartley speed. I would suggest that like many old songs the tempo has been much jazzed up for modern-day ears a-la Thin Lizzie.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,Robert Andrew Jaffray
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 11:58 AM

I got this off the web...The words themselves have no meaning. An old singing tradition in Ireland is lilting, diddling or sometimes called mouth music. When the language and music were banned the Irish improvised the sound of instruments with their voice and lilting became an art. Many Irish and Scottish ballads written in English have some of these 'nonsense' words or lilts added. It is also akin to Swiss yodeling.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 12:20 PM

Steve in County Chatham

Me mum told me "musha" means donkey balls, but I'm not real sure on that one.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 12:49 PM

While we're on the subject, what does Wop boppa loopa ba lop bam boom mean?

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,VOlgadon
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 02:48 PM

I thought music being banned was a bit of an urban legend.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 08:16 AM

Didn't the Beeb ban the playing of Caledonia during the first swelling of Scots national feeling?

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 10:08 AM

People are always claiming that such-and-such a thing has been 'banned' by somebody or other, but they never seem to be able to produce a shred of evidence. Such claims, though widely believed, are usually just old wives' tales; 'modern myths' if you prefer. I would be astonished if the BBC had ever 'banned' Dougie MacLean's innocuous song, though its adoption as a campaign song by the SNP may well have meant that it wasn't played much on air during elections. The BBC has a statutory duty to be politically neutral, and would have to avoid appearing to favour one party over another.

The comment 'Robert Andrew Jaffray' quoted was copied from a pseudonymous post to 'Yahoo Answers' (Phillipines branch, apparently) made by somebody who (in that particular case) didn't know what they were talking about. It may be that Robert didn't read much of this discussion before posting to it; but he certainly isn't alone in that, unfortunately. The internet is the most effective way of spreading misinformation ever devised: 'I got this off the web' is usually best read as 'Ignore the following'.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: meself
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 10:53 AM

And it is curious that someone would suppose that some other, generic, site would trump this one on questions of folksong arcana ...

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: trevek
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 04:57 PM

Poppagator, wasn't it Macushla? Yes, it means "My darling". Lots of songs with it in the title or chorus.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Big Elk
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 01:10 PM

The lyrics are easy to translate.

Drink 4 pints of Guinness followed by ½ a bottle of Powers.

The lyrics make perfect sense.

The challenge is in remembering the answer once you sober up.

Jokes aside the tradition includes mouth music, that is a collection of near random noises, to which people used to dance, perhaps with simple percussion at best. In Scot's Irish and English traditions perhaps some of the more obscure re occurring phrases could have their origins in this form.

Don't question it, enjoy it, it is what it is.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,an aussie muso
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 01:54 PM

if musha is "if it is so/it shall be" it makes sense, i've been told "whack" is to have a drink for somebody ie toast, daddy-o means grandfather, so to lament the grandfather (after being caught with the booty), who probably taught son/grandson their wicked ways, makes sense to me.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,Roy
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 02:39 PM

Gee....I am glad we got that all cleared up. And wish I had known the meaning of that before I recorded the song. Well, MUSHA !!!!

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 09:25 AM

So if the story's about his misses dobbing him in to the captain could it not be just "Wait for my daddy, oh, there's whiskey in the jar"?
Inviting him to wait and get hammered on the whiskey until the captain arrives?

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 12:52 AM

karma?

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,Denisha Shae
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 12:40 PM

I looked it up and the phrase in fact does have a meaning... It's derived from the Irish language... Basically meaning "Whiskey for the fool", or "Whiskey for me, the fool".

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: MartinRyan
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 10:54 AM

Hi denisha

It would be a lovely story if true but I'm afraid.... it's not.

Regards

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,Jay
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 08:28 PM

M'uishe rinne me don amada - Whiskey made me a fool, or Whiskey made a fool of me.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,justjosh
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 02:30 AM

Here is a gem I found on another similar post:

"Musha ring um a do um a da" is very very similar sounding to these Irish words:
Musha => M'uishe (my whiskey)
ring um a => rinne me/ (rinne = past tense of "de/an" which is "do, make, perform, carry out, commit, turn out, reach, establish"; me/ = "I, me")
do => don (from "do" + "an" = "to the, for the")
um a da => amada/n (fool)

which translates to "I made my whiskey for the fool."

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,Brian McGuire
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 02:32 PM

The "Musha ring un do um a da" and the "Whack fol ma daddy-o (or laddie-o)" WERE originally Gaelic, they are just a phonetic pronunciation of the original Gaelic.
Now here's where you have to take it on faith; I KNOW that they are both originally Gaelic because I've seen the traditional lyrics both in a friends book of Celtic music AND on a folk song web site a couple years ago.
My memory is fuzzy but I think Declan had the first part right with "Bainne na mBó ins na gamhna" because I remember the original Gaelic looking absolutely nothing like the song sounds.
Unfortunately I don't remember the name of the web site I saw it on, so I might as well be telling you that I saw Bigfoot. I think I followed the link from a RenFest performers web site. If I can find it again I will post the link on here.

Cheers,
Brian

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,Zero
Date: 29 Dec 10 - 10:33 PM

I'm going to take a shot at this. Take it with a grain of salt. All these people British or Cornish, Celtic or Cymric, engaged in word play of all sorts. Rhyming slang, double meaning, etc . . . they're singing in a language not their own, English. A lot of phonetics are in play. Not saying they were illiterate. Often people back in the day were more literate than people now, in many way. But you don't have to read music to come up with a song anymore than you have to be Shakespeare to write a poem. If you listen to a child pronounce a word without knowing the spelling it comes out a bit funny sometimes. Same as when Japanese borrow foreign words. Sometimes you have to get a little creative to get what the original word was. Remember even the Irish in the film Snatch had trouble understanding Brad Pitt's Pikey character. If you've ever hung out drinking with someone with a strong accent of any kind you know what I mean. So it isn't much of a stretch to turn 'Work For The Devil' into 'Whack Fal the Diddle'. Drink a few whiskeys, and "Must Have" quickly become "Musta" and finally "Musha". I'm not saying that's what it is. Remember when writing a song it doesn't matter what it means to anyone but the author, as long as it sounds good. The Melvins write unintelligible lyrics all the time. Maybe it means something to them, but they probably prefer that it isn't understood. John Lennon found out college professors had students analyze Beatle songs, so he put in more nonsense than usual, that's how you get I Am The Walrus. Could be a song about someone's mustache. Out of Boyo you get Boy. Someone said, Daddy-O means Grandfather. Makes sense to me, since O, just like Mc or Mac means Of, or Son Of. Here's the question... does he mean his real Grandfather, or Grandfather in a kindly was, or just some old fool? Wrap your head around that one. And then drink a couple of whiskeys and try to figure out the lyrics from a writer's perspective while switching between Gaelic, Brythonic & Alcoholic. You'll find all sorts of new meanings! ; )

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,kiwipunk
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 10:58 PM

im a kiwi of irish descent, my grandmother was from galway and a gaelic speaker, my grandfather was born here but had come from a long line of only irish, 7 generations in fact, im 9th.
he didnt really speak gaelic but he was a staunch republican and liked a drink with the lads, he said to me that 'musha rig darum do damada' is gaelic for 'oh well, i fucked up' and that 'whack fol de daddio' is 'drink to your fathers/ancestors' referring to those that died fighting the english, as the hero of the song is resigning himself to doing, now that he is an outlaw.
he actually asked my grandmother for clarification on that, she concurred saying its nonsense words but must have meant something like that originally, before getting mashed by non-gaelic speakers...

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,Johnimo
Date: 18 Jan 12 - 09:15 PM

I feel certain, being myself a lover of Mr. John Barleycorn, that the refrain in question, "Musha ringum duram da, Whack fol de daddy-o," and so forth refers explicity to the thrashing and processing of the barley, wheat, and other grains necessary for the production of the "Whiskey in the Jar." Once must confess however -- after all this analysis -- it's a mighty fine song, sure 'nuff.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,3m
Date: 06 Jun 12 - 09:31 AM

i always thought it was " put a ring on your finger ma da" "wait for my daddio" "wait for my daddio , there's whiskey in the jar o" sounds a reads so much better

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,bmwwxman
Date: 01 Dec 12 - 07:21 PM

The translation of the chorus is:

"This ought to keep you bloody Yanks scratching your heads for years to come"

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST,Gary
Date: 22 Feb 14 - 11:53 AM

"Whack" is an old sailor's term for daily ration, which included all food and water, (and for a while, rum.)

If "daddy-o" could refer to the singer (as in "Come to Papa,) then "Whack for my daddy-o" might roughly translate to "I have all that I need, because there's whiskey in the jar."

As for the "Musha ringum ...," that's what brought me here.

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: Lighter
Date: 22 Feb 14 - 02:23 PM

Except that it's clearly "whack fol the daddy o."

Subject: RE: Origins: Musha ringum duram da...
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Dec 17 - 07:55 PM

Meaning of "musha ring dumma do dumma da" in the song "Whiskey in the Jar"

From:http://www.irishgaelictranslator.com/translation/topic82172.html

Post February 19 2009, 6:54 AM by CaoimhínSF

Muise (spelling varies) is an Irish expression of frustration with no actual meaning, but usually said at the beginning of sentences with varying meanings like "heck", "darn", "the hell with it", "f-word", or just "Aargh!".

I think it might be: Muise, rinne mé díom amadán. Means: F---, I made a fool [out] of myself.

Similar from: https://johnaffeymuseum.tumblr.com/post/102105659364/the-eiderhare-1-a-childs-charm-here-we-see-a

This is similar to several Irish folk songs in which seemingly nonsensical lines are arguably corrupted Gaelic. One such is Whiskey in the Jar, where the repeated line “Musha ring dum-a do dum-a da” is likely a ‘Hobson-Jobson’ of the Gaelic “Muise, rinne mé díom amadán” (“Damn, I made a fool of myself”), or similar.