Simon and Garfunkel; generation gap

Subject: RE: Simon and Garfunkel; generation gap
From: Celtaddict
Date: 18 Jul 04 - 06:24 PM

When I was in middle school (junior high it was called then) and listened to people like Peter, Paul and Mary, The Dave Clark Five, Chad and Jeremy, or Peter and Gordon, my dad, who would have been in his mid-late forties, and who introduced me to loads of big band, classical, Broadway show, and jazz players, came home and said, "I just ordered a record I think you will like by a duet called, of all things, Simon and Garfunkel." The were wonderful and I was hooked, as was he. When my daughter, now in her twenties, was in her early teens, she discovered them for herself, and was thrilled, and when she started telling me about them and playing her new CDs, she was astonished that I knew all the lyrics to every song.
Enjoyment of a particular genre of music is, I think, more about what we have learned and what we have shared, and the gap in appreciation of a specific type may well be less about generation than about social circle. When all my daughter's friends were listening to Top 40 on the radio, she did too, but she also heard traditional, classic, reggae, "oldies" (a term that always sounds a little silly applied to the music of the 60s and 70s, to people who love music from earlier centuries) and an eclectic variety as well. Most of the music she enjoys is older than she is. She did realize that when she heard a Top 40 group live it was a big show, major social event, costly, and shared with thousands, almost none of whom would ever meet the musicians personally, and when she went to hear a traditional singer, she was likely to get a seat at the front table and hear from the stage, "Hi, how's the softball team, what would you like to hear?" Her CD case is now full of Simon & Garfunkel, OutKast, Bob Marley, Gordon Bok, Buddy Holly, Pink Floyd, Blues Traveler, Tommy Makem, and the Philadelphia Philharmonic.

Subject: RE: Simon and Garfunkel; generation gap
From: Celtaddict
Date: 18 Jul 04 - 06:27 PM

We just heard Simon and Garfunkel in concert too. It was absolutely wonderful. They have never needed to do anything more than stand there and sing. Incredible. And as already observed, thirty years of singing the same songs have not made the songs routine; the performances have acquired a rich and subtle patina.

Subject: RE: Simon and Garfunkel; generation gap
From: harvey andrews
Date: 18 Jul 04 - 06:34 PM

That's about as eclectic a set of records as I had at 14!
"Round, like a circle in a spiral....."
I think we all agree on fundamentals. All I ask is; challenge sloppy stereotyping and lazy criticism wherever you find it. The critics that started me on this thread were on "Newsnight" on BBC2. They'd just reviewed films...Spiderman and Thunderbirds! I ask you!!! Those of you who remember the days of Joan Bakewell know what "dumbing down" means.Think on't and weep!
Thanks all for your postings.

Subject: RE: Simon and Garfunkel; generation gap
From: Celtaddict
Date: 18 Jul 04 - 06:55 PM

Absolutely! A reviewer should know the genre being reviewed. I would not seek out Roger Ebert's evaluation of a pottery show, nor would I wish to watch a basketball game with commentary by a brass quartet. Perhaps we should all be contacting the channels or papers whose reviews we encounter, suggesting that more interest and more balanced evaluation could be obtained by having reviewers of different backgrounds, who did not necessarily agree, and who recognized the diversity of their patrons.

Subject: RE: Simon and Garfunkel; generation gap
From: Celtaddict
Date: 18 Jul 04 - 07:01 PM

All of which reminds me of hearing Brian McNeill telling a story one time and describing a BBC interviewer, who had "all the usual prerequisites for a BBC interviewer: lots of hair, lots of teeth..."

But there is both "quality" (whatever that is; I think it has to do with what endures) and enjoyment to be found in all genres, though some may be more likely to stand the test of time more than others. Music or any other cultural attribute that has already stood the test of time will naturally seem to have quality, and that which has been shared and enjoyed by many generations is likely to continue to endure.
Is this not more or less why we read real literature to our children, hang actual art work on their walls instead of cartoon cutouts, take them to good restaurants instead of fast food places?

Subject: RE: Simon and Garfunkel; generation gap
From: Celtaddict
Date: 18 Jul 04 - 07:04 PM

This thread and the Songs from Shakespeare thread are coalescing to a certain degree.

Subject: RE: Simon and Garfunkel; generation gap
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 18 Jul 04 - 09:24 PM

If we can figure a way for it to see the light of day, "SIOUX INDIANS" will be on my new CD (from old tapes) that Dennis Cook is trying to make presentable right now as we speak. It was recorded at a benefit concert we did for Michael Cooney in Chicago after he was grivously injured in a road accident several years ago. He is doing great right now (July 18, 2004).

The tapes of that whole concert ought to be issued. It was me and Cindy Mangsen and Steve Goodman and a fellow named Pete Seeger. Pete had a terrible cold but still (of course) pretty much pulled it off with Stevie Goodman leading songs and picking up the ball and running with it like the champ he always was. The benefit was held at a large folk venue called Stages Music Hall that was run then by Ed Holstein. This was on Clark Street -- pretty much right across from Wrigley Field--where the Cubs play---and where some of Stevie's ashes were secretly scattered at the base of the left-center field wall---among the ivy roots. The concert was November 4th, 1979. --- I didn't know it at the time, but I do think that night was some kind of highpoint for me. Hindsight can be enlightening--and quite nice.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Simon and Garfunkel; generation gap
From: Nerd
Date: 18 Jul 04 - 11:53 PM

Weirdly, I dreamt about having a long conversation with Pete Seeger last night. I think it was because of posting to this thread and getting replies from Art and Harvey...only a short step from that to a chinwag with Pete!

Harvey, the detail that the same reviewers had just reviewed films does, of course, make their fitness to review the concert far more suspect. Maybe they don't know anything about music at all!

Subject: RE: Simon and Garfunkel; generation gap
From: MAG
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 12:09 AM

"Is this not more or less why we read real literature to our children, hang actual art work on their walls instead of cartoon cutouts, take them to good restaurants instead of fast food places? "

I only wish. I see the select few on the job (library) who seek out real literature and read it to their kids. When the majority of parents do read to their kids, it tends to be the tripe on the rack at chain stores.

sorry, that's a real hot button for me. Kids who get good literature grow up knowing how to think, and we know where that leads, don't we???

Sorry I missed that concert, Art; I was trying to finish up Library school AND serving in the organizing drive at that time.

Subject: RE: Simon and Garfunkel; generation gap
From: Celtaddict
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 12:36 AM

"Is this not more or less why we read real literature to our children, hang actual art work on their walls instead of cartoon cutouts, take them to good restaurants instead of fast food places?"

The painful observation that the "we" may be a smaller group than ideal does not change the point, except perhaps to strengthen it!

Subject: RE: Simon and Garfunkel; generation gap
From: ScottAndrews
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 08:01 AM

As someone who makes his living as both a film and music critic I have to stand up for people who multi task and review both, but I can't disagree with my dad when he lambasts those two critics who patently didn't have the first clue of the cutural context of what it was they were reviewing. It always drives me nuts to see lazy critics getting away with spouting the kind of rent-a-view rubbish that gives my profession a bad name. But they probably knew the producer, hence they get the gig.

Case in point. A while back I was given the job of interviewing Robert Palmer, this was just before he died. Now I don't much care for his music but I didn't want to go in ignorant so I spent a whole day reading background material and composing a list of questions that were all about his music, because the one thing I've learnt from interviewing people over the last year or so is that musicians get asked about touring and release schedules and videos and all the paraphernalia, but the one thing they get asked about least often is music. And it it, naturally, the one thing they REALLY want to to talk about. So the interview went really well and I got a lovely message from his manager later to tell me how much he'd enjoyed being interviewed by someone who knew what he was talking about - all the other interviewers that day had asked him over and over again about the 'Addicted to Love' video and not much else.

I learnt an important lesson that day: being a critic is all about two things - research and respect. Oh, and being opinionated, of course!

Now it seems clear that the critics who discussed S&G on Newsnight had given their back catalogue no more than the most cursory glance, so why should their opinions matter to me, or to anyone? Which is why I should be on Newsnight not them ;-)

As for the decline of music and film in general, well, dad knows I don't entirely buy that. Adaptation or Northfork prove that independent American cinema is the healthiest it's ever been, and don't get me started on how good The Divine Comedy and Fountains of Wayne are for I shall just rant on and on and bore everyone to tears.

I think there's still loads of good stuff out there, it's just that it takes a bit more finding than it used to. The cream is still in the churn, it just doesn't rise to the top as easily as it once did. The only way to get the best out of the fractured, over saturated media world we live in nowadays is to be extremely pro-active in your search for whatever it is you personally define as quality. It's out there, but you've got to root about for it coz much of the media designed to draw your attention to new music and film is created by lazy journos who rarely look beyond the latest press release they're spoonfed by the publicity company.

I signed up to the newly legal Napster and I just found, by surfing other people's favourites list, Uncle Tupelo. I'm four tracks into their last album and I'm wondering how I never heard this before coz it's great. Proactive, the only way to be.

Subject: RE: Simon and Garfunkel; generation gap
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 08:22 AM

Hey, Scott: I just turned 69 and I'm a great Fountains Of Wayne fan, and also like Uncle Tupelo. You're right. You have to search for good music and good movies (I also have Northfork on DVD.) With critics, whether they're movie or music or book critics, you have to get to know their tastes, their strengths and weaknesses. Even a renowned movie critic like Roger Ebert is a sucker for movies that tap into his childhood. He seems very objective and analytical on 95% of his reviews, but when it comes to movies about comic book characters he doesn't seem to be able to give a detached review.

Oh yeah, I still like Simon and Garfunkel, although I like Paul Simon's body of work better on the whole.. even most of the music from Capeman, which bombed on broadway.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Simon and Garfunkel; generation gap
From: JJ
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 08:33 AM

Maybe one day Paul will let them release the original cast recording of THE CAPEMAN. It's in the can, I understand, but he's keeping it locked there because the wounds are still too fresh, even now.

Subject: RE: Simon and Garfunkel; generation gap
From: Nerd
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 02:31 PM

Thanks, Scott and Jerry,

Scott, I wasn't saying it was impossible to be good at both film and music reviews; I know other people who also do both. I was just suggesting that they were more likely to be scrubs at reviewing music if it was only a sideline to reviewing films. You sound like you SHOULD be on the BBC instead of them :-)

Jerry, your observations about Ebert are spot on! I've noticed that myself. But once you are used to it, you can read his reviews and adjust for the "Ebert Factor."

Subject: RE: Simon and Garfunkel; generation gap
From: MAG
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 03:15 PM

You mean, like the 4 stars he (Ebert) gave the Gibson snuff movie??

MAG, ducking for cover ...

Subject: RE: Simon and Garfunkel; generation gap
From: The Stage Manager
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 06:18 PM

"…….demand something visual and participatory with content coming a bad third….."

Andrews, I'm beginning to wonder if old fartdom hasn't finally crept up on you!    I won't repeat here what I once heard a middle aged school music teacher say about some of your early songs… I seem to remember though that "Not a fit subject" came into it somewhere.   

Surely it's the job of youngsters to get seriously up the noses of their parent's generation, and create their own music and means of expression.   I don't seem to remember Elvis Presley and the Rolling Stones being universally admired for their artistry, unlike your good self of course.

I have this dream that one day, during a power cut, some spotty oik is going to stand up a sing his song unaccompanied. A couple of hundred other spotty oiks will then all say "Woooo that was amazing…He sung without the lights…"

Singing and playing while standing still will suddenly be the epitome of cool, performers will talk enthusiastically 'really communicating with the audience', somebody will moan that music has no production standards any more, promoters and managers will suddenly realise they can save shed loads of money. Of course we'll all have to listen to the words, good or bad, because there'll be bugger all else to distract us from the song.....then we'll all go round the block once more. …

Meanwhile, we can be sure, somewhere in the upstairs room of a pub a bunch of balding old grey hairs will be singing mournfully about English Ale, moaning about the state of contemporary song writing, and protesting that they've been singing that way for years anbyway.

Then all will be well with the world, because for one thing, we will all be spared the spectacle of 60 year old blokes (and gals) getting up on stage and behaving like they were twenty once again.

SM

Subject: RE: Simon and Garfunkel; generation gap
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 06:50 PM

I just picked up a prev-viewed copy of The Singing Detective. After one look last night I found it possibly very good. But I need to watch it several more times to get the nuances and plot details. Robt. Downey jr. seemed to make his slightly(?) over the top peformance mesmerizing. The way the old pop hits music was used was just great. It really lightened up the illness of Downey in a inventive manner.----And Mel Gibson as the shrink fooled me the entire way through. I didn't know it was Mel.

I'm hoping for a comment on this film by some in this thread---that's why I didn't start a new thread. I wanted you people to see it.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Simon and Garfunkel; generation gap
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 07:05 PM

Dennis Potter's original brilliant The Singing Detective screenplay was for a six-part television series. I'd be interested to know whether it's actually possible to follow the complicated plot when boiled down to feature film length. Though I suspect that what Art is hinting at is that this remake is yet another instance of how content doesn't really matter nowadays...

Subject: RE: Simon and Garfunkel; generation gap
From: ScottAndrews
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 07:10 PM

re: Singing 'Tec. Haven't seen the US film version, but the original UK TV version is such a masterpiece I'm reluctant to watch the remake.

However, the film IS from a script by the same writer, Dennis Potter, and he expressly stated that he wanted it remade as a film set in the US so I'll probably give it a try. I dunno if you've seen the original or not, but it's out on DVD in the US and UK and I can't recommend it highly enough, it's a seminal piece of TV and the best thing Potter ever wrote - you may have guessed I'm a huge Potter fan.

When I do see the film I may end up being accused of fogeyism myself tho, and start ranting about how it's not as good as the original version I saw when I was a lad :-) Grief, a fogey at 32. The pace of life is just so much FASTER these days isn't it!

Subject: RE: Simon and Garfunkel; generation gap
From: harvey andrews
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 03:52 AM

spared the spectacle of 60 year old blokes (and gals) getting up on stage and behaving like they were twenty once again.

Well. provided they do it with taste and skill and make use of their subsequent experience, I have no objection to that.

Subject: RE: Simon and Garfunkel; generation gap
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 09:29 AM

I love S & G but there is a difference between CD's and concerts.   Some groups like S & G are much better in CD.   Some groups I would never buy their CD, but enjoy them in concert.   

I go to about 20 coffeehouse and 4-5 folk festivals a year.   I also get free tickets to about 40-50 rock concerts a year and go to 10-15. In the past few years, I have changed my mind about performing. I loved the "Discomania" show with Village People and KC and the Sunshine Band even though I would never buy or listen to any of their music.   It was hugely fun and entertaining.   Conversely, I go to many singer songwriters who sit in a chair and sing non descript songs.    Most of them don't draw me in.

I think part of the "performance" involves doing more than just "standing there and singing"   At most folk concerts you get the story behind the song and learn a little about the performer.   (that never happens at a rock concert)   Getting the group to sing or clap or participate is another part of performing.   Cape Breton fiddle players are very "showy" in performance and many step dance.   Other groups like the Arrogrant Worms or Barachois add theatrics and odd props.   There are many things you can do.   Art uses humor very effectively "folklore, jolklore, and corn" on his business card.

I think folkies should learn from MTV and the Rolling Stones.   Put more performance into a concert.   I don't think it has to take away from the music.