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BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!

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Mark Ross 20 Oct 04 - 04:05 PM
DougR 20 Oct 04 - 04:36 PM
Once Famous 20 Oct 04 - 05:13 PM
GUEST,Clint Keller 20 Oct 04 - 05:22 PM
open mike 20 Oct 04 - 06:59 PM
Amos 20 Oct 04 - 07:20 PM
Alonzo M. Zilch (inactive) 20 Oct 04 - 09:00 PM
Once Famous 20 Oct 04 - 10:17 PM
frogprince 20 Oct 04 - 10:30 PM
Ebbie 20 Oct 04 - 10:38 PM
katlaughing 21 Oct 04 - 12:20 AM
GUEST,Clint Keller 21 Oct 04 - 12:48 AM
Seamus Kennedy 21 Oct 04 - 03:10 AM
Mark Ross 21 Oct 04 - 11:03 AM
Teresa 21 Oct 04 - 12:03 PM
GUEST,smiler 21 Oct 04 - 01:29 PM
George Papavgeris 21 Oct 04 - 02:07 PM
GUEST,smiler 21 Oct 04 - 02:35 PM
GUEST,Larry K 21 Oct 04 - 04:52 PM
Once Famous 21 Oct 04 - 05:34 PM
Ron Davies 21 Oct 04 - 08:06 PM
McGrath of Harlow 21 Oct 04 - 09:11 PM
katlaughing 21 Oct 04 - 09:16 PM
Ron Davies 21 Oct 04 - 09:53 PM
GUEST 22 Oct 04 - 11:20 AM
EBarnacle 22 Oct 04 - 11:54 AM
Amergin 22 Oct 04 - 12:00 PM
GUEST 22 Oct 04 - 12:18 PM
GUEST,smiler 22 Oct 04 - 04:03 PM
Peace 22 Oct 04 - 10:23 PM
Ron Davies 22 Oct 04 - 11:16 PM
Charley Noble 23 Oct 04 - 11:09 AM
GUEST,smiler 23 Oct 04 - 02:40 PM
Amergin 23 Oct 04 - 05:41 PM
GUEST,Amazed 23 Oct 04 - 06:00 PM
Jeri 23 Oct 04 - 06:24 PM
Charley Noble 23 Oct 04 - 07:53 PM
GUEST,Art Thieme 23 Oct 04 - 10:11 PM
GUEST 24 Oct 04 - 11:41 AM
GUEST,Art Thieme 24 Oct 04 - 12:11 PM
GUEST 24 Oct 04 - 12:39 PM
GUEST,smiler 24 Oct 04 - 12:41 PM
Jeri 24 Oct 04 - 02:09 PM
GUEST 24 Oct 04 - 02:25 PM
GUEST,smiler 24 Oct 04 - 02:46 PM
GUEST,Clint Keller 24 Oct 04 - 03:27 PM
Charley Noble 24 Oct 04 - 03:32 PM
GUEST 24 Oct 04 - 03:51 PM
GUEST,Clint Keller 24 Oct 04 - 05:00 PM
GUEST 24 Oct 04 - 05:19 PM
GUEST,smiler 24 Oct 04 - 05:24 PM
Ron Davies 24 Oct 04 - 05:40 PM
Once Famous 24 Oct 04 - 05:41 PM
Ron Davies 24 Oct 04 - 05:45 PM
GUEST 24 Oct 04 - 05:52 PM
Ron Davies 24 Oct 04 - 06:00 PM
GUEST 24 Oct 04 - 06:00 PM
Ron Davies 24 Oct 04 - 06:04 PM
GUEST 24 Oct 04 - 06:09 PM
Ebbie 24 Oct 04 - 06:20 PM
GUEST 24 Oct 04 - 06:23 PM
Ron Davies 24 Oct 04 - 07:21 PM
GUEST,Clint Keller 24 Oct 04 - 08:25 PM
Jeri 24 Oct 04 - 08:33 PM
GUEST 24 Oct 04 - 08:57 PM
GUEST,Clint Keller 24 Oct 04 - 09:02 PM
GUEST,Art Thieme 25 Oct 04 - 11:25 AM
GUEST,Art Thieme 25 Oct 04 - 05:49 PM
GUEST,Disgusted in Catville 25 Oct 04 - 08:48 PM
frogprince 25 Oct 04 - 08:59 PM
Ron Davies 25 Oct 04 - 09:02 PM
GUEST,Art Thieme 25 Oct 04 - 10:42 PM
GUEST,Even More Disgusted in Catville 26 Oct 04 - 11:24 AM
Big Mick 26 Oct 04 - 12:23 PM
GUEST,Disgusted in Catville 26 Oct 04 - 12:38 PM
Big Mick 26 Oct 04 - 12:48 PM
GUEST,Disgusted in Catville 26 Oct 04 - 12:57 PM
Big Mick 26 Oct 04 - 01:04 PM
DougR 26 Oct 04 - 01:04 PM
Mark Ross 26 Oct 04 - 01:06 PM
Amos 26 Oct 04 - 01:20 PM
GUEST,Disgusted in Catville 26 Oct 04 - 01:33 PM
Big Mick 26 Oct 04 - 03:41 PM
Peace 26 Oct 04 - 07:27 PM
Peace 26 Oct 04 - 07:28 PM
Ron Davies 27 Oct 04 - 08:37 AM
Charley Noble 27 Oct 04 - 09:55 AM
GUEST,Art Thieme 27 Oct 04 - 11:20 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 27 Oct 04 - 11:36 AM
GUEST 27 Oct 04 - 02:13 PM
GUEST 27 Oct 04 - 02:46 PM
Tannywheeler 27 Oct 04 - 02:47 PM
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Seamus Kennedy 29 Oct 04 - 12:00 AM
Peace 29 Oct 04 - 12:28 AM
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Cluin 29 Oct 04 - 06:49 PM
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Subject: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: Mark Ross
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 04:05 PM

Just got this and figured it needed to be passed on to all of you Mudcatter's.

Mark Ross



"Voting for the First Time"
    by Carolyn Crane


    Utah Phillips is a folk singer who tours the United States,
    delighting audiences with his outlandish stories and challenging them
    with the ruthless honesty of his insights. A veteran of the US Army
    who served in Korea, he rode the trains for years after coming home
    in despair from what he'd witnessed overseas. He met Ammon Hennacy in
    Utah at the Joe Hill House for Transients and Migrants and discovered
    anarchy and pacifism.

    These tenets have since shaped his life and work. Phillips and I live
    in the same Northern California town, Nevada City, where he was one
    of the founders of our thriving Peace Center of Nevada County. It was
    from the community radio station there that he produced Loafer's
    Glory, a collection of stories, poems and songs set to the
    accompaniment of Woody Guthrie-influenced guitarist Mark Ross. And it
    was to that radio station he went in late September to share with his
    community an important political decision he'd made, which caused him
    great difficulty and pain.

    You surprised many people who are familiar with your work with your
    announcement that you were going to register to vote for the first
    time ever.

    This is not easy for me. I'm an anarchist and I've been an anarchist
    many, many years. The anarchy that I've followed and practiced all of
    that time came to me through Dorothy Day and the Catholic Workers,
    through Ammon Hennacy, the great Catholic anarchist and pacifist.
    Ammon taught me, as he did, to treat his body like a ballot. My body
    is my ballot. And he said, "Cast that body ballot on behalf of the
    people around you every day of your life, every day. And don't let
    anybody ever tell you you haven't voted." You just didn't assign
    responsibility to other people to do things. You accept
    responsibility and see to it that something gets done. That's the way
    he lived and that's the way the past forty, going on fifty, years
    that I have lived. It's a way to vote without caving in to the civil
    authority I'm committed to dissolving.

    But, we are in a desperate situation here. And it's not just us in
    the United States. There are people all over the world who are
    affected by these people who have staged a coup on our government.
    I can see a shopkeeper in Damascus who's threatened by being bombed
    out. I can see a schoolgirl who's collaterally killed by the action
    of these people. There are millions of people in the world who are
    affected by the actions of this government, and they can't vote in
    this election. I have no use for Kerry. I have no use for Bush. I
    don't like either one of them, but these folks can't vote in this
    election. They have to have people vote for them. And I intend to
    be one of those. What's the best chance they've got to keep them
    from being bombed and killed? I don't know. Kerry is an unknown
    quantity. Bush is a known quantity. A crapshoot, isn't it? But I'm
    going to stand in for one of these people. And if I'm wrong, I'm
    wrong by myself.

    When you made your announcement, you talked about women who have
    inspired and influenced your decision. Can you talk a little
    about that?

    I learned a great deal from Judi Barry. I drove and talked with her
    the day before her car got blown up in Oakland in 1990. She had come
    around to the idea that direct action and political action are two
    hands of the same body. I think as an anarchist and when you keep
    company with other anarchists, as I have in the IWW, the Industrial
    Workers of the World, and this is my fiftieth year in the IWW, you
    develop a great antagonism toward the political process, toward
    statism in any form. However, many of us have come to realize that
    political action and direct action are two hands of the same body. We
    have to learn how to work together: the street and the ballot box. In
    places like Philadelphia or Boston, Massachusetts, when they put
    freedom in jail, when they put freedom of assembly and freedom of
    association and freedom of speech in a bullpen with razor wire around
    it, they put freedom in jail. In the bullpen on Pier 57 in New York,
    when my daughter [Morrigan Phillips] was jailed for trying to shut
    down Wall Street in an act of nonviolence civil disobedience.

    They're trying to tie that direct-action hand behind our back. If
    they succeed in that, how long will it be, how long are we going to
    hang on to the other hand, the political action hand? Every
    significant social movement in this country--anti-slavery,
    suffragette, labor movement, peace movement--all started on the
    street. All of them began on the street. Don't give up the street.
    The street's where we win. We vote with our feet. That's where it all
    begins. Made a song about that. Bodhi Busick put a nice tune to it.
    No, I won't give up the street. But in this instance, at this time,
    at this place, I think the situation is so dire that yes, I have
    registered to vote and I am prepared to stand in for one of the
    victims of the kind of brutality that the people in Washington bring
    to the world.

    You've said that your choice to not vote, to not participate in the
    system in that way, is one of the most sacred promises you've made. I
    know what it means to you to make this decision. It's sobering,
    because I think: Are things really that bad?

    Yeah, it is that bad. Now, I am not putting myself forth as an
    example. I'm not putting myself forth as a role model. Anarchists
    don't make rules for other people. You make rules for yourself and
    then people have got to learn how to trust you. And if you blow it
    you have the courage to change, and you do change and an anarchist is
    always something you're becoming. I don't need any congratulations
    for what I'm doing at all. I feel lousy about it. I don't feel good
    about it all. I'm simply going to do it. And if there are
    consequences of my act, than I harvest those consequences. That too,
    is anarchy.


This article can be found on the web at:

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20041025&s=crane


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: DougR
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 04:36 PM

Wow! I'm awed.

I assume he will be voting for Nader, right?

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: Once Famous
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 05:13 PM

Amazing how people have died for the right for him to be such an arrogant non-voting American.


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 05:22 PM

If rights were granted only to those you -- or I -- approve of they wouldn't be worth much.

clint


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: open mike
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 06:59 PM

hello? Utah served his country...and continues to do so.
"A veteran of the US Army who served in Korea"


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: Amos
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 07:20 PM

Martin:

Arrogance is where you find it, I guess. SOmetimes an intensely deeply felt decision can take on the same colors. I suspect you know this first hand.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: Alonzo M. Zilch (inactive)
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 09:00 PM

I assume he will be voting for Nader, right?

From what I gather, it's the need to defeat Bush that is motivating Bruce to vote. If defeating Bush is the point of the exercise, then I would assume he'll be joining former-Naderites like Pete Seeger who are voting for Kerry.

Amazing how people have died for the right for him to be such an arrogant non-voting American.

I would think that a Korean War vet has earned the democratic to choose whether or not he votes.

About 50% of Americans don't vote. Some people don't vote out of pure apathy. Others don't vote because they don't feel that any of the candidates are worth voting for. That's a choice that we are free to make in a democracy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: Once Famous
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 10:17 PM

For sure we are free to make that decision.

The 50% who do not vote are truly the biggest losers.

Amos, arrogance is like a gaping wound. It's no mystery where to find it. Most who are arrogant wear it on their sleeve. Sometimes an intensly deeply felt decision is just pure arrogance in it's rawest form.

A Korean war vet who doesn't vote diminishes the memory of the ones who died during that and any war that America was in.


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: frogprince
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 10:30 PM

Martin, How much different is that from saying a conscientious objector doesn't deserve to live in America? This is a different thing than sitting out an election out of plain apathy.
(And why am I letting myself in for it by starting an exchange with Martin for the first time).


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 10:38 PM

If you have ever listened to the man, you are aware of where he stands politically, morally and ethically- and you can and will make up your own mind as to where you fit in. If voting is the act of letting others know what you believe in and work for, Utah Phillips has been voting all his life.

Go, UU Phillips.


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 12:20 AM

Thanks, Mark.

As Ebbie, said, Go UU Phillips!


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 12:48 AM

I think few of us have the integrity and courage to live, and have lived, Utah Phillips' life, or that of Ammon Hennacy. They both deserve great respect, whether or not you agree with them.

clint


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 03:10 AM

If you don't vote, you can't bitch about the results.
Arrogance or not.

Seamus


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: Mark Ross
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 11:03 AM

Martin
You obviously didn't read the article carefully enough.

Here's a song I wrote Tuesday, that I sent to Utah. It's to Woody Guthrie's tune for THE GREAT DUSTSTORM.

Mark Ross



"W" MUST GO
On the 2nd of November, in the year 2004,
The people will get together and show George Bush the door,
It's not that we like Kerry, but we can't stand George B,
He may be the worst President that we will ever see.

He's not our country's savior, he's not our country's hope,
When he smiles and says he's doing right, we think that he's a dope.
Every time he's on TV I just can't watch that man,
For everything he's done to all the poor folk in this land.

He spends more time in Texas than he does in D.C.
He thinks the price of freedom is giving up liberty.
He says the war on terror, that battle can be won,
But he wasn't paying attention on 9/11/01.

He has sent our soldiers overseas to conquer in Iraq,
And he leaves us wondering when they'll be coming back.
When he smiles and says the battle's won it makes my blood just boil,
For we know that what he's doing is trading blood for oil.

And all his friends the bankers, getting rich at our expense,
By taking money from the poor, it just don't make no sense.
Just like all politicians, he knows what gets him votes,
Even though his promises are nothing but a joke.

It's time that we got together to finally make a stand,
So head down to the voting booth with your ballot in your hand,
So let's send him back to Texas or some other very hot place,
Maybe that will finally wipe the smile from off his face.


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: Teresa
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 12:03 PM

Love the song, Mark.

Would that the world had more people with U U's integrity.

T


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: GUEST,smiler
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 01:29 PM

If you don't vote you have every right to bitch about the results.

It's when you DO vote you have no right to complain about the result, as you accepted the deal.

Some people don't believe that one cross every four or five years, for someone who may or may not keep to their manisfesto is democracy. People are worth more than that.

If I don't vote, I am not subject to the government, their taxes or laws as I didn't partake of the deal by voting.


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 02:07 PM

For the record, I admire UU for his integrity, though I am not aligned with him politically.

GUEST,smiler, I suggest that you DO in fact partake of the deal, even when voting; every time you make use of a civil service (just getting a passport, or a driver's licence, or sending your kids to school, or drinking the tap water that has been certified by inspectors, or fly in an aeroplane and use the FAA services). Just by posting this message in fact you have partaken of the regulation of frequencies over the telecommunications lines.

It is virtually impossible to live in a place and to not partake of that country's government and its decisions and constructs.

So, as you take advantage (knowingly or not) from "the deal", you also carry the responsibility. By not voting you register a personal position on the matter - neutral to the voting process, but a position all the same.


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: GUEST,smiler
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 02:35 PM

These things EG, are done whether I am there or not. I am not consulted in the matter. What passes for western democracy consists of about 10 or 15 crosses throughout a lifetime

Also, everyone who disagrees with an illegal war, is also responsible for it, if they voted for any party in such a system.
that elected a rogue party.

Hitler was elected in this way. If no-one votes, it would be a chance to replace it with a local, not global form of government, based on needs,not exploitation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 04:52 PM

I had the pleasure of having Utah Phillips stay at our house at a guest for 3 days and provide transportation to and from our folk music festival.    A few observations.

What you see is what you get.    Utah and I disagree politically on just about everything.   However, we never got into an argument and he showed great respect for everyones opinion.   He spent a lot of time on the phone calling people and checking votes, and elections, and following up on causes.    No phonyness about him whatsoever.

He mentioned that he would not do public tv as he didn't want to support that.   Probably hurt his carreer.   The funny story is that the planes went on strike right before our festival and he had no other way of getting to NJ.   He had never crossed a picket line before, but got permission for the local unions.   At the airports he joined each picket line before getting on the flight.   He did a whole set of union songs on Saturday night as pennance.

A utah line-   A guy came up to me and put a gun to my head and said who are you going to vote for- Bush or Kerry?   I thought about it for a few seconds and said shoot me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: Once Famous
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 05:34 PM

I read your song Mark. You have to much time on your hands.

If Bush wins, you should have spent your time doing something else. If he loses, it's definately because of the song you wrote.

"If you don't vote, you can't bitch about the results.
Arrogance or not.

Seamus "

Right on, Seamus

Not voting and whining equals just whining.


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: Ron Davies
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 08:06 PM

"When no-one votes"----yeah right Guest smiler----I'll clue you, since you're touchingly naive----that will never happen. There will always be true believers of one stamp or another who will vote. If you don't, you're subject to their decisions. Didn't you even once pay attention in your civics class?


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 09:11 PM

"My body is my ballot. Cast that body ballot on behalf of the people around you every day of your life, every day. And don't let anybody ever tell you you haven't voted."

How many people can put their hand on their heart and say they would measure up to that? Compared to that, putting a cross in a box or pushing a button every few years doesn't add up to that much.

If voting is the start of doing that, it can mean something. If it's just an excuse for sitting back and doing bugger all, it means bugger all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 09:16 PM

Great job, Mark! Thanks for sharing it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: Ron Davies
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 09:53 PM

Actually Guest smiler, civics lessons shouldn't be necessary--a bit of common sense would do the trick----is that a foreign concept to you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 11:20 AM

I don't care if or how Utah Phillips votes. If or how a celebrity (folk or otherwise) votes has never influenced my voting and it never will. I don't know why anyone would care one way or the other about Utah Phillips voting habits. It all seems silly to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: EBarnacle
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 11:54 AM

If it's not too late where you are, register to vote. Then choose whether or not to vote and for whom. If you ain't registered, you have no choices and deserve what you get.

EBarnacle (who has already voted by absentee ballot because he will be in Florida keepin' an eye on things)


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: Amergin
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 12:00 PM

Well good for him!

I am one of those who always votes, in every selection. You know in Oz voting is compulsory? I hear you get fined if you don't go down to the polls.


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 12:18 PM

Not voting merely ensures that democracy fails. If every voter dissatisfied with the system showed up and destroyed their ballots, it shows politicians that they care, and are not satisfied with the status quo. Better yet, get involved and create a third party to garner such support, and you would see a vast change for the better in politics.


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: GUEST,smiler
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 04:03 PM

As the old saying goes, “If voting changed anything, they'd abolish itâ€쳌.

I urge everyone not to vote. It only encourages politicians to drop bombs on some poor buggers somewhere.

This comes from common sense.


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: Peace
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 10:23 PM

I have missed very few opportunities in this life to vote. On occasion I have marred my ballot and put a few words on it to voice disapproval with the candidates. However, personally, I think voting is important, even if it means I only destroy the ballot. I have to go there to do that. It's the goin' there that's important, along with the decision as to who gets the vote.

I met Bruce a few times, and although I don't agree with his anarchist views, he is an honourable man, good story teller and fine singer/musician. I have respect for him, and I also like many of his political conclusions.

That he will vote on this occasion is a statement from him that maybe some folks should consider. He has only one vote, and when he casts it, he will cast with it a lifetime of nonviolent non-participation in that aspect of politics. Interesting.


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 11:16 PM

Tell you what---- GUEST 22 Oct 2004 12:18 PM--" If every voter dissatisfied with the system showed up and destroyed their ballots...."

You do that.

I'll vote.

Hope you like being governed by the people I choose.


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: Charley Noble
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 11:09 AM

Now I have led a good life, full of peace and quiet
But I shall have an old age, steeped in rum and riot;
Yes, I have been a good lad, gentile and artistic;
I shall be a grandad, coarse and anarchistic!

Having marched a picket line or two with Utah and shared a few late morning digressions, I am pleased to hear this gruff old bear is willing to join a growing majority of voters who are gonna vote Bush out of office.

And, yes, I'll be happy to join Utah in any subsequent demonstrations against the new Kerry Administration if he fucks up as well!

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: GUEST,smiler
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 02:40 PM

You've got no moral right to demonstrate against those you voted in. You give them your cross for the next five years, and that is one you have to bear.

Elections are a waste of time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: Amergin
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 05:41 PM

Smiler, as we are living in a country that bestows free speach to it's citizens...and visitors, we have a moral DUTY to picket against those who do not follow the will of the people, irregardless whether or not we voted them in or not.

I just came back from a couple of hours knocking on doors getting people to vote. Voting is the important thing here, how you vote is your business. ACT now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: GUEST,Amazed
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 06:00 PM

The most amazing part of this thread is that the most arrogant mudcatter in the history of Mudcat, Martin Gibson, calls someone else arrogant!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: Jeri
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 06:24 PM

GUEST, smiler wrote: " If I don't vote, I am not subject to the government, their taxes or laws as I didn't partake of the deal by voting." That's one of the funniest things I've read in a while.

You also said " It's when you DO vote you have no right to complain about the result, as you accepted the deal."

I didn't accept it if my candidate loses. Even if he wins and I don't like what he's doing, I still have the right to complain. In fact, I probably should complain even louder. In the US we can basically complain about whatever or whomever we want, whenever we want.

In reality, the only meaning not voting has is that your voice isn't heard. The results will still affect you, but if you're comfortable handing over your future to others, I don't see any problem with not voting.


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: Charley Noble
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 07:53 PM

I think I'll go watch our video of last Wednesday's West Wing.

Thanks for the support, and cheers for Utah!

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 10:11 PM

My friend, Utah, in reacting so admirably to the life that has been dealt him, has made a remarkable philosophy for that life and for himself. He has once again shown brilliantly why he has always been so worthy of my admiration. As Van Ronk said, "Sometimes you must part with your principles, and do the right thing."

Art Thieme


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 11:41 AM

"Sometimes you must part with your principles, and do the right thing."

If you have to part with your principles to do the right thing, you've obviously been holding to the wrong principles.


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 12:11 PM

Not at all.

Art Thieme


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 12:39 PM

Really? Would you please explain how, if one believes firmly that the principles and values one adheres to are good, fair, and just, that one's actions would not follow?

This is exactly the disconnect I, and other radical progressives, have with the liberal Democrat politics of capitulation and appeasement. We keep hearing from the liberal Democrats how the left in America has a history of splintering apart at the first sign of weakness or drift to the right in their political party.

One reason why I have decisively left behind the notion of voting for Green Party candidate Cobb, is because of just that sort of fallacious argument being put forth against those who chose to stand by their principles and do what they believe is the right thing.

There is a faction within the Greens that has capitulated to the Democratic Party, to appease the Democrats' wrath with Nader and the Greens for the 2000 election. That faction is being led by David Cobb, and the Green Party members who argued for and won the right turn at the June convention in Milwaukee, where Nader/Camejo were shut out.

That overreaction to the events of the 2000 election is what is at the root of the current progressive movements splintering, not the rightward movement of the Democratic party. Times change, even if the tired old dirty tricks and tactics of the imperial liberal Democrat reactionaries stay the same.

I am not now, nor have I ever been, a member of the Green Party. For that very reason. The Green Party is now mostly made up of middle class liberals with very narrow, naive, and narcissistic worldviews, and mostly single issue "in my backyard" politics. They fear the rigorous, theoretical and practical debates which are, IMO, the great strength of the progressive left, not it's weakness. I have never been a "within the system" activist. My political and social activism has always been to agitate, educate, and organize for change from outside the political system, not inside it. I have participated in successful and unsuccessful campaigns for change. That is par for the course.

My fears about this election are rooted in an understanding that the threats to the global environment, global justice and world peace come not from a single person or party but from systems, and that no matter who is elected, the systems of empire and capitalism remain in place. Both Bush and Kerry are committed--by their words and deeds--to the maintenance of the capitalist empire. I recognize there are differences between the two, and some of the differences aren't inconsequential. But those differences are not substantial enough for me to vote for Kerry, because of his clearly stated goals of fighting to defend the middle class (at the expense of the working class and poor) and the capitalist empire that protects the interests of the middle and upper class.

Bush and Kerry are both pro-war candidates. Both pledge virtually unconditional support to Israel in its brutal and illegal occupation of Palestine. The two candidates' hawkish rhetoric on Latin America and the Caribbean is virtually indistinguishable. And both Bush and Kerry are committed to continuing to spend more than $400 billion on an insane military system that has little to do with national security and much to do with the maintenance of empire and corporate profits.

On foreign and military policy, Bush and Kerry differ mostly in style and strategy, not fundamental aims. Much is made of Kerry's commitment to traditional alliance politics, which some have pointed out would likely be more effective in the long term than Bush's go-it-alone strategy. If Kerry rebuilds U.S. alliances with other powerful states, especially in Europe, it might allow the empire to continue for a longer period.

That is why I am both sticking to my radical progressive principles AND doing the right thing, by voting for Nader on November 2nd. Lucky for me I have that right in Minnesota. Unfortunately for many Nader supporters, they have been deprived of that right by the liberal Democrat lawyers who have fought so undemocratically to keep Nader off the ballot in the other battleground states.

I'll also be here doing the same work I have always done on November 3rd, opposing either Kerry or Bush after the election, just as I did before the election. It makes no difference to me which one is president, because it is the systems I am fighting against, not just the systems leadership.


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: GUEST,smiler
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 12:41 PM

Jeri

Re your last post.

An election is a contract between the state and the people. You enter that contract by voting. If I don't vote, I am not subject to that contract. What's so funny about that?

It seems that Utah Phillips is a hero a) Because he didn't vote b) because he's now voting.

That's his choice. He'll only be voting for a different person delivering the same shit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: Jeri
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 02:09 PM

What's funny? The idea that a person isn't subject to taxation or laws simply because they don't vote. Try holding up a bank or refusing to pay your federal income tax. Send them a letter explaining why it's ok for you to do these things and see what happens.

It's not a contract, it's a process that contiues and changes. If you remove yourself from the process, you only remove yourself from the process and the decisions made. It sounds like this whole process and the concepts involve seem foriegn to you anyway.

As to principles vs 'doing the right thing', it comes down to compromises between ideals and reality. A person may believe in communism, and yet still has to work for a living.


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 02:25 PM

Everyone is free to compromise their ideals, their values, and their principles to justify voting for a bad guy. In fact, that is what most of the US voters do election after election, so I don't expect it will be any harder for them to do this time than it is any other election year.

The statement "A person may believe in communism, and yet still has to work for a living" shows a profound ignorance of facts. Communism doesn't have anything to do with working vs not working. It has to do with distribution of the wealth that is created by collective work, and an opposition to allowing individuals and nowadays individual corporations acting legally as entities with the same rights as individual persons, amassing wealth/capital which is inherited, stolen, extorted, etc. from others.


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: GUEST,smiler
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 02:46 PM

Jeri

There's a subtle difference between holding up a bank, and withholding your taxes.

In the first instance you are robbing others (however much the bank may morally deserve it). In the second instance, you are preventing the government from robbing you, of the fruits of your labour.


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 03:27 PM

Ammon Hennacy, Utah's mentor in many ways, didn't believe in taxes because he didn't believe in governments. He also believed in taking the consequences of his actions - that's part of being an anarchist - and he didn't want to go to jail because it would interfere with his work.

Now, you can only stay out of jail and pay no taxes if you don't own anything so Ammon faced up to it and quit owning things. He gave all he had away, including any income he got, and lived and ate in the mission he ran. and he never owned anything the rest of his life.

He wouldn't ever call the police because they're an arm of the government. And so on.

That's integrity; putting your money where your mouth is. Go and do thou likewise, smiler.

clint


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: Charley Noble
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 03:32 PM

Well argued, Guest (could you provide us a Guest name?), but in my opinion your vote for Nader is somewhat tarnished by his financial support from conservative right-wingers. I was not aware of such cyncial financial support for Nader when I voted for him in 2000; he captured 6% of the vote in Maine then.

However, I'll welcome you at the barricades if you've got the courage to follow through on your convictions. However, I'm not gonna hold my breath waiting. I'm sure you can rationalize why it's more important for you to be some place else.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 03:51 PM

Sigh.

Charley, the nasty, Democratic circulated rumor that Nader has accepted money from the Republicans is just that, nothing else. It isn't true. He didn't accept tainted money in 2000 or in 2004.

As to your second looney paragraph, I don't expect anyone to take what I say at face value here, for many reasons. But then, I'm the only one looking myself in the mirror every morning, so what an entity calling itself "Charley Noble" says in an internet chat forum about me and the way I vote matters not one iota to me.

What should matter to everyone else, is that no one here has succeeded in hobbling together a cogent argument that rings true enough to defeat my arguments. Now, why is that? I don't profess to know. I just know that the arguments for Kerry are as weak and contradictory as arguments against Nader are around here.

And BTW Charley, nobody's vote can be tarnished, period. But especially not by the opinions of someone who disagrees with the way the the person freely chooses to vote.

Kerry's supporters really are insecure. They seem to have no faith in the system they profess to be working within, to save us all from conservative Republican rule.

I am increasingly convinced that a whole lot of Democratic Party supporting Mudcatters are increasingly comfortable with the idea of fascism, so long as the fascism is applied to Republicans they hate, and the people they perceive as being their enemies, like Nader and his supporters, people who don't vote because they don't believe in the system, etc. Way too comfortable with it for my blood.

Thank the lucky stars above for folks like Bobert and Guest Smiley being here is all I can say!


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 05:00 PM

GUEST

Please read what I posted above on 24 Oct 04 - 03:27 PM, and measure yourself against Ammon Hennacy as far as sticking by your ideals, values & principles. Let us know how you come out.

clint


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 05:19 PM

Why should I Clint? I have never claimed I would or should hold myself anyone else to some obscure old anarchist's standards, just because I choose to stick by my own principles.

What is the matter with some of you people? Why on earth would you think I am to be held to some person's standards (who I not only don't know, but have never even heard of) rather than my own, just because of how I choose to vote?

Oh right--because some of you people believe you should have the control over others to dictate what YOU think their values SHOULD be.

You people are looney tunes! Cuckoo!


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: GUEST,smiler
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 05:24 PM

Clint

I've only offered you my arguments. You don't know anything about me, and it's physically impossible to put my money where my mouth is on an internet chat room.

Its not the point either.

When some people put their vote where there mouth is, it means a lot of families get murdered in places like Iraq.

Guest 3.51pm cheers for your comments.


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 05:40 PM

Guest smiler---

Look, nobody's threatening to show up at your door with storm troopers.

It's real simple.

1) If you don't vote, you have no voice in government.
2) This time, if you don't vote for Kerry, you may get another 4 years of Bush. Do you really think Kerry would be worse than that?


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: Once Famous
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 05:41 PM

Yes, perhaps.


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 05:45 PM

Martin--

Thanks so much for your well-reasoned contribution, supported with all the well-documented evidence we have come to expect from you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 05:52 PM

I'm with Smiler. Voting does NOT give you a voice in government any more than not voting doesn't.

The only voices in government are the ruling elite, which ain't the majority of voters or non-voters. They are that less than 1% club Kerry keeps talking about.


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 06:00 PM

Oh joy, another conspiracy theory mental giant.


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 06:00 PM

Ron.... Vote garbage in and you get more garbage. Register your dissent by spoiling your ballot is a vote; and if a decent independant or another party runs, they will get my vote! No i doubt if i will like who you voted for this election.


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 06:04 PM

Too bad you won't like my choice this time.

Only one way to do something about it----vote yourself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 06:09 PM

The fundamental problem here is that both sides of the Dem/Rep partisan divide fall into the same trap of assigning elections much more importance than they are due. Yes, Bush stole the election last time, and yes, corporations have too much power over politics, and both are important issues. But the real problem with our electoral system is that it reduces political decision-making to choosing bureaucrats to make decisions for us. In the end, elections function as an ideological tool to delude us into thinking that we have any control over the political process. We don't. The money guys own and operate this system. Voters are their audience.


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 06:20 PM

Guest/ October 24, 12:39, no one is deprived of voting for Ralph Nader. If anyone anywhere in the country thinks it important to go on record for Nader, one can write him in on OTHER. (Don't forget to check the box.) There. Feel better?


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 06:23 PM

No I don't feel better, Ebbie. The story of the Democratic Party suing to keep Nader off the ballot is a David and Goliath story.

I guess that means you favor Goliath, in this instance.


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 07:21 PM

Terribly sorry you don't feel better. Lie down til it goes away.


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 08:25 PM

Guest & smiler:

I don't think you boys should stick to Hennacy's standards; I think you should stick to your own as well as he did to his.

You think voting is supporting the power structure? Well, paying taxes supports it a lot more. When you pay taxes, when you ask the police or fire department or the dog catcher for help, you are making a contract with the System.

And I fail to see how my vote for Gore got people in Iraq killed. Explain how they'd be alive if I hadn't voted, please.

clint


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: Jeri
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 08:33 PM

GUEST,smiler, "There's a subtle difference between holding up a bank, and withholding your taxes."

Perhaps you'd like to explain why the 'subtle differences' matter to this discussion, in which you claimed you aren't subject to laws and taxes? Assuming you're a citizen of a country that requires everyone to abide by laws and pay taxes, you're still going to be in trouble if you don't do these things.

GUEST, it's not so much that I'm profoundly ignorant of the facts. I wasn't precise. Most people likely would have understood, but to you, I was dangling a nice, juicy opportunity for you to call someone stupid. Here's a reprhase: A person may believe in communism and hate capitalism, but if they live in a capitalist country, they still have to work for capitalists, buy products and services sold by capitalists, thereby supporting capitalism and functioning as a capitalist.


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 08:57 PM

That's right Jeri, that's right, we all work for the capitalists and we all for the empire, and all I want to know Jeri, is where do we go to get our get of capitalist jail, get our get out of imperial jail cards? I know it won't be a free card, but just tell me, where do you think we should all begin to look for that card, that candidate, that party, that process, that is going to set us all free?

Where do we go? What do we do? Smiler says not to vote, not at all. Clint and his anarchist mentor say not to pay taxes, not at all. You say, you say we all work for the man, the capitalist man, the imperialist man. It seems like nearly everyone around me says don't you DARE vote for Ralph Nader, don't you DARE! How DARE you vote for Ralph Nader, do you not UNDERSTAND what four more years of George W. Bush will DO? What that will mean? Don't you DARE! You are FOR Bush. You are proving NOTHING by standing by your principles because this time, this time, this time you just CAN'T stand by your principles because standing by your principles at THIS TIME, is just WRONG.

Thank you Jeri, I know you are not profoundly ignorant, and that all of this is maddeningly ambiguous but can you please tell me, please just tell me Jeri, just where I have to go, and what I have to do to be RIGHT? Do I go stand over there in the Kerry line? Is that where I go to be right? To take a stand? To not take a stand? Should I take a stand? Should I stand down, stand up? What should I do to do THE RIGHT THING that we are being lectured to do by art thieme and clint keller and you and Ron Davies and all of you who are SO RIGHT and all of you who are SO CERTAIN and all of you who are doing the RIGHT thing, which of course means so many of us must be doing the WRONG thing by standing by our principles...because I know, I know, I know that you just used that word COMMUNISM so you could be oppositional to my use of the word CAPITALIST because, because, because well that means you could trick me, you could lure me, you could prove what a fool I am by making me call you profoundly ignorant.

You are so right, you are so right Jeri. You all are so, so right.


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 09:02 PM

Maybe I'd ought to make it clear that I'm not holding myself up as an example. People who try to meet the system head-on need the courage and dedication to devote all aspects of their life to it. And the faith that it'll work. I don't have that in me.

And even at best, you can't live in the system and not be of it to some extent.

I quit voting myself after I helped get LBJ into office, and he went and did the very thing I was afraid Goldwater would do. But after a while I saw I wasn't accomplishing a whole lot.

The whole culture has to change to change the pieces you don't like, and it's going to be slow.

clint


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 11:25 AM

Guest, I think you are showing me how unblievably young and naive you are.

It must be nice to know that new information, no matter how impressive, ought not be taken into the Gestalt. You stick to your principles and watch as good possibilites go down the drain with the washwater. And, yes, that is the baby you just saw go down for the third time as, gasping, as it went into oblivion.

In '68 I was for Senator Eugene McCarthy. No matter how many told me that only Robert Kennedy could win, I stuck with E.M. because he was there for us early on as a rallying point against the war in Viet Nam and Lyndon Johnson. Lyndon did abdicate as a result of that good pressure. Then Bobby was killed---and Hubert Humphrey was the pale nominee of the Dems. He lost!!! It became a moot point tha Bbobby would've been the one that COULD win.

That is the bottom line. Hubert Humphrey lost!! This political system, as age has shown me, caters to the POSSIBLE---and little else. One vote can mean an insane regime might take over----or stay in power.

I now can see clearer. Once again, as in 2000 you GREENS will cause a 243rd trimester abortion to take place as not only the baby but your entire basket of fragile eggs goes breaking and cascading into the tumult and chaos of George Bush's sewer.

Art Thieme


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 05:49 PM

But I hope not.   ;-)

Art


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: GUEST,Disgusted in Catville
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 08:48 PM

Once again, as in 2000 you GREENS will cause a 243rd trimester abortion to take place as not only the baby but your entire basket of fragile eggs goes breaking and cascading into the tumult and chaos of George Bush's sewer.

?????????

How dare YOU speak like that to someone, art thieme, just because you disagree with their politics?!?!?

An apology is in order, not to mention getting a grip on doing the right thing HERE IN MUDCAT as well as in the voting booth! This sort of thing is below the belt, and uncalled for, art. I'm surprised--nay shocked at you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: frogprince
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 08:59 PM

1. Never forget your ideals
2. Never sacrifice other peoples lives to your ideals.


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: Ron Davies
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 09:02 PM

For some reason he's not enthusiastic about another 4 years of Bush. Are you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 10:42 PM

My intent was to state---once again--my feelings that Nader being in the race could cause the same thing again that happened in 2000. It was not a personal attack on anyone---but it was stated way over the top in order to get their attention. Those who cannot see that their actions will cause more harm than good simply cannot see reality as I'm seeing it at all. My too strong verbage was, again, to get the mule's attention--and possibly change the animals mind this once--at least. ------- I heard Ralph Nader speak today. I agree with him on every position he takes. BUT he and those he leads cannot see that this is the wrong moment to stand for those ideals.

To those of you who see my polemic/diatribe as a personal insult, I must say that I am very sorry for that. It was aimed at the situation and not at individuals whose stands, idealistically if not practically, I agree with. In another week all rhetorical spewing here will be moot points. Then we can roll over, share a cigarette, get dressed and move on.

After watching the political machinations of the last four years, I feel obligated to be emphatic now. It seems that important to me. Lately, I tend to be too much a people pleaser. That must come from being on stage for a living of sorts and wanting approval from my audience. It seems my words have distressed some of my old friends. Well, O.K. then. I guess I'm the one who must live with clay feet.

Art Thieme


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: GUEST,Even More Disgusted in Catville
Date: 26 Oct 04 - 11:24 AM

Art, your provisional apology is accepted.

But just because you believe Nader is a threat to Kerry, doesn't justify you stooping to these levels and going over the top like that. This is politics Art. Even though this year's presidential race will be close, doesn't mean all decency and decorum should be thrown out the window. Nader and his supporters don't deserve this level of invective, no matter how deep your personal beliefs are about the 2000 election, and nor do the citizens of Mudcat.

Art, I have to take exception to something specific you said above, which was "In another week all rhetorical spewing here will be moot points. Then we can roll over, share a cigarette, get dressed and move on."

You know and I know that isn't necessarily going to be true. Like Jon Stewart said to the Crossfire boys recently, this sort of invective and combativeness is hurting the nation. I would second that, and add that your invective and combativeness towards Nader and his supporters here is also hurting Mudcat. People won't necessarily kiss and make up, Art. Sometimes the wounds are too deep, and the divide becomes impossible to close. Just keep that in mind, please, the next time you decide to start Nader raging at people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: Big Mick
Date: 26 Oct 04 - 12:23 PM

You are right on, Art, and don't back off a bit. This person gets her kicks out of this stuff, and as long as she is getting hers she could care less about the the result. There is a time for revolution, but this one should be about throwing out Bush.

And, not so young lady, you of all people have no business lecturing Art Thieme. You see, he actually has done something other than tell us what is wrong. You on the other hand only know how to point out what is wrong, but offer no solutions.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: GUEST,Disgusted in Catville
Date: 26 Oct 04 - 12:38 PM

I don't know who you think you are talking to Big Mick, but engaging in these internet road rage attacks against people whose political opinions are different than yours is never the right thing to do, regardless of whether you are both planning on voting for the same candidate or not.

Raging at people like this over an election, no matter how important YOU think the election will be, is wrong. So please, take it down a few notches, and calm down.


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: Big Mick
Date: 26 Oct 04 - 12:48 PM

That is your typical response. You seem to think that when someone disagrees with you, they are raging. The mental health care professionals can probably help you with the name for it. You should check into what it means when you attack constantly, but when someone attacks back you revert to namecalling and issue shifting.

The simple fact is that Art is right on in his premise. I agree with a great deal of Nader's positions also. But right now working families cannot deal with another four years of this man. But of course, you wouldn't be able to relate to that.

Stay the course Art.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: GUEST,Disgusted in Catville
Date: 26 Oct 04 - 12:57 PM

I don't have any idea what you are talking about Big Mick, except to say it is my opinion that the raging and political bloodletting at Mudcat has to stop. Not after the election, but now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: Big Mick
Date: 26 Oct 04 - 01:04 PM

Then it should start with you. You have attacked, you have chastised, you have spoken down to, anyone who disagrees with you. On any number of occasions I have offered to just debate the issues, free of the invective, and you have responded with filthy language and demeaning comments. It is you who attacks anyone who doesn't agree with you. It is you that is the cause of most of the bloodletting that occurs. If you would like it to stop, then I challenge you to say now, in this thread, that you won't participate in it any longer.

You should have noticed that when you are making decent arguments, even though they run counter to my philosophy, I haven't attacked you.

Nice of you to finally come to this.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: DougR
Date: 26 Oct 04 - 01:04 PM

Ron Davies: Yes, I believe the country would be better off with four more years of George W. Bush. Electing a anti-war candidate as your leader while at war makes no sense to me what-so-ever.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: Mark Ross
Date: 26 Oct 04 - 01:06 PM

Much as I hate to say it, I'm going to have to bite the bullet this year and vote for Kerry. I would rather vote for someone like Nader, but this country is teetering on the edge of fascism(if we're not over it already). The worst part is it reminds me of '64, Johnson vs. Goldwater, and I'm afraid we're going to get the same result, BUT, we have to send that Neandarthal back to Texas. And I apologize to all you Neandarthals out there!

Mark Ross


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: Amos
Date: 26 Oct 04 - 01:20 PM

Mark Ross:

Send the Neanderthal Back to Texas!~



Good phrase.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: GUEST,Disgusted in Catville
Date: 26 Oct 04 - 01:33 PM

Mick, I honestly don't know what you are going on about. I simply am trying to make peace here, and to help cool down the rhetoric a bit before people start the cyber equivalent of WWIII here.

All I'm trying to say here is let's follow the example of DougR, and speak our minds forcefully and confidently, as Mark and he have done above. That can easily be done without making abhorrent statements about other peoples' political beliefs being the equivalent of aborting a fetus.

All I am doing is making a plea to keep it clean here, and for people to stop hitting below the belt, regardless of their political beliefs.

Now, I realize that if some of you feel justified in your venom spewing, you are going to do spew venom regardless of what any of the rest of us says about it.

But let's be clear: no one but you yourselves have the power to regulate your behavior. Your political opposition can't make you behave badly, only you can make yourself behave badly.

How you behave is your choice.


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: Big Mick
Date: 26 Oct 04 - 03:41 PM

I should pull up the posts you have posted under various monikers to make the point, but I won't. Instead I will see if you can live up to what you have just stated. In fact, I applaud you for it.

Now, on with the debate.

The fact that folks like Bruce (Utah) Phillips can see what is happening should be a bellweather for those of you wishing to make a statement with your vote. Folks like him, who have much in common with Nader, know that this current President has very dangerous and destructive policies. I am not sure how much we can undo if we put him out now, let alone do anything that would insure him another 4 years. It just seems to me that Nader and company only exacerbate that. And nothing I have heard from your side indicates that you see a difference between the two major candidates. Quite frankly that puzzles me. I think the differences are profound. It seems to me that those that espouse your philosophy are willing to make a point at the expense of millions of working poor. Is that a price you are willing to pay?

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: Peace
Date: 26 Oct 04 - 07:27 PM

"This is exactly the disconnect I, and other radical progressives, have with the liberal Democrat politics of capitulation and appeasement."

What, pray tell, is a radical progressive? (Sounds a bit like an adjective of not first, second or third, but rather fourth degree, and as such seems it would have more commerce with a grammar thread, if indeed such a thread existed.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: Peace
Date: 26 Oct 04 - 07:28 PM

Or such an adjective.


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: Ron Davies
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 08:37 AM

Doug R-

"While at war"---what war?

Oh, I know--the war against terrorism.

So we must continue to elect dangerously short-sighted deluded self-appointed messiahs whose idea of foreign policy is an unending series of unilateral pre-emptive wars.   

And, don't kid yourself--thanks to Bush they will be unending---and Bush is now willing to sacrifice world nuclear safety to the interests of a few corporate buddies---see the Nuclear Non-Proliferation thread---and pay particular attention to the REPUBLICAN opposition to Bush's stupidity.

At any rate ,as I have pointed out earlier, the more "collateral damage"--your and Bush's wonderful term for people killed inadvertently, the more terrorists. And Bush's brilliant policies put us on track for a bottomless supply of terrorists.

Tell you what---here's my Modest Proposal (don't suppose you know Swift--except Swift
boats)--- for you.

Let's send YOUR sons to fight these unending wars.



There is a better way--to think and plan before going to war--and just maybe to not always do it.

No hope of that with Bush.


Kerry can and will think.

Pardon my effrontery for suggesting that even (especially) in wartime, thinking is useful.


Sorry it's a foreign concept to you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: Charley Noble
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 09:55 AM

I'm surprised and pleased with the number of long term Republicans I have encountered these past few months in my small Maine town who agree that Bush does not deserve another four years and plan to vote for Kerry. Our town has about 2500 registered voters, about evenly divided between Democrats, Republicans, and undisignated independents. There are also a few dozen Green Party and Libertarian registered voters.

The concerns the Republicans generally mention is the War on Iraq and how it has made the world and our country more vulnerable to terrorism; their other concern is the huge deficits the Bush Administration has run up in the last 4 years.

I am more concerned with talking with moderate Republicans at this point than trying to bring over the remaining Nader supporters. Our polling in Maine indicates that Nader's support has dropped from 6% in 2000 to about 2%. Officially the National Green Party has also encouraged its members to vote for Kerry in the battleground states instead of their national candidates; however, we'll still have people voting for Green Party legislative candidates in Maine, and one is actually running for re-election.

If the Bush Administration hadn't so grossly mismanaged the Iraq War and its occupation, I doubt that Kerry would have much likelihood of winning, even with his strength on the economic and social issues he's been concerned with.

One more week and then we'll probably have a month or two of end game to contend with. What joy!

Charley Noble

P.S.

Doug R- you've still got time to come over from the dark side, unless you've already voted absentee...


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 11:20 AM

Disgusted in Catville,

I back off nothing I said. My pronouncements are where I am, how I see it, how I want it to be --- and calling it simply "politics", as you have in order to denegrate it is way off the mark. Politics, as we have come to know it and love it (or leave it), is our modern version of BUGHOUSE SQUARE in my home town of Chicago. It was FREE SPEECH. People up on the soapbox trying to change opinions. It was no more truthful than what we see today. It was in your face and deceptively manipulating in order to obtain the desired result. It was TACTICS. And it was beautiful in that it made a final decision of sorts that let our dumbnesses function in some kind of an orderly but not a perfect fashion.

It is happening here in this forum too. And your feeling that my polemic isn't correct and polite enough says that you would not be very much good on a picket line when the goons and the ginks and the company finks came around to didcommode your niceness.

What I said is basically what I feel. I do not say what I BELIEVE because I don't feel that belief is enough to go on---ever. It isn't truth. It is based, as I've said in the past, on wishful thinking.

And changing one's mind when new facts are presented ought not be called flip-flopping or wishy-washy fom my point of view. This is, truly, the only way to go and be true to ones so-called ideals.

Ideals ought to be the starting point from which wisdom MIGHT be gleaned. ----- Ideals are not usually ideal!!!

Art Thieme


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 11:36 AM

"Electing a anti-war candidate as your leader while at war makes no sense to me what-so-ever."

Are you saying that Bush is "Pro-War"????   What kind of moral person believes in war?   Sounds like the biggest flip-flop of all.

What you probably meant to infer is that war is sometimes a necessary option. I would actually agree to that. Unfortunaly, most people realize that Iraq is not a just war.   Kerry has a strategy, Bush does not.

What is the difference between Vietnam and Iraq?

Bush had a plan to get out of Vietman.


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 02:13 PM

"Success is the ability to rise above principle."

                            Gerald Barzan


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 02:46 PM

"The greatest art of a politician is to render vice serviceable to the cause of virtue."
                           Henry Bolingbroke


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: Tannywheeler
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 02:47 PM

In the original post on top of this thread Utah Phillips is quoted as saying, "...An anarchist is something you're always becoming..." Among the odd pieces of info I have amassed over my life is the following:

The Hebrew letter string that becomes YHWH, or JHVH -- and translates as Yahweh, or Jehovah -- is a form of the verb TO BE. It is ONLY used as a name of God, and its closest translation is "always in a state of becoming".

I am grateful for the learning I've done because of the someones like Woody, Pete, Utah P., etc. who've written/sung songs and taught me what's right and good. If I choose to take that education to the polls, I hope Mr. Phillips understands I'm working toward some of the same goals he is. Jehovah bless Utah Phillips.    Tw


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 04:18 PM

Is "GUEST,Disgusted in Catville" the same as the GUEST who has been posting so enthusiastically about Nader and very so dismissively about the idea of Kerry, and "anyone-but-Bush"?

If so, thanks for taking on a handle, however temporary, because you aren't the only (nameless) GUEST on this thread, I think, and it gets confusing.

Anyway, two points - one is that you seem hung up on the notion that the people who are advocating voting for Kerry all think that this is going to make everything all right. Pretty clearly that would be a nonsensical view. If elected, Kerry is going to do all kinds of things that Bush would do. But even if the difference between Bush and Kerry is marginal, that's an important margin. It's a margin which you can stand and fight, and you won't have that if Bush gets in.

And the other point is that elections indeed are not that important - or rather, they are not in themselves the levers by which the world is changed for the better. Treating them as an occasion to get into bitter and irreconcilable fights with the kind of people you would need alongside in the kind of movement you might hope to build is just bad thinking. It's playing games.

As I said earlier, I think in this thread, if Gore had got in last time, "progressives" would be a lot stronger now, and they'd be reinforced by a lot of people who had hoped for more from him than they would actually have got; and if Bush gets in again, then four years down the line, "progressives" will be far less effective than you are even now. (Incidentally, I stick "progressive" in commas there, because it's a label that's very likely to get adopted by our own Conservative Party at some point. All kinds of people can call themselves "progressives". It's like "libertarian", which used to be a way of calling yourself an anarchist, but a bit less likely to frighten the horses.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 05:49 PM

My reference to a VERY late trimester abortion above was a tongue-in-cheek allusion to tossing out the baby with the washwater----and was intended only to clarify, not muddy, folks' recognition of what I was saying. I meant no parallels between my chosen terminology and the debate between choice and life. I am sorry if I used a baggage laden image.

Art


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 06:10 PM

VERY late indeed. Since a trimester is a period of three months, a 243rd trimester baby would be some 60 years old.

It's best to actually read things through before erupting in indignation. Sometimes even looking up words in a dictionary is a good idea.


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 06:14 PM

way back up there,^ 'guest' said .."Voting does NOT give you a voice in government any more than not voting doesn't."

in 1976, I, personally, affected governtment in the state of Kansas by being a candidate for state Senator. I did not win, but the votes I got from 794 OTHER participants kept an avowed racist from winning and allowed a decent man to have the job.

There are stories like this all over the land....and 500 different votes...less than the number I recieved in 1976... in Florida 4 years ago would have made an entire nation and world different.

I see why Bruce Phillips refrained from voting in the past, but in his case it was to make a point which probably did more good than his actual vote would have. You & I are not the activists and lightening rods he was...we need to vote.


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 11:16 PM

Guys, that reference was a COMIC reference with a serious intent on and within a serious topic. 243rd trimester abortion being a VERY LATE abortion is a JOKE !!   To me, that seemed and seems obvious.

Art ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 28 Oct 04 - 12:44 AM

" …Bruce Phillips refrained from voting in the past, but in his case it was to make a point which probably did more good than his actual vote would have. You & I are not the activists and lightening rods he was...we need to vote. "

Yes. Utah Phillips' not-voting means more in the context of his life than me not-voting after Johnson's administration means in the context of mine.

(Is that perfectly clear?)

Not-voting in elections but "voting with his body" has made a point and had an effect that my not-voting didn't. I was just disillusioned and grumpy.

clint


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 29 Oct 04 - 12:00 AM

Clint, run that by me again...

Seamus


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: Peace
Date: 29 Oct 04 - 12:28 AM

Clint, I gotta disagree. A vote's a vote.


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: Peace
Date: 29 Oct 04 - 12:28 AM

. . . or not a vote's not a vote.


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 29 Oct 04 - 01:49 AM

Well, it seemed to mean something at the time. (If I don't vote in a forest will it not make a non-sound? Don't answer that.)

Strike what I said. Looking back up the line, I notice Bill D said it briefer and better:

"I see why Bruce Phillips refrained from voting in the past, but in his case it was to make a point which probably did more good than his actual vote would have. You & I are not the activists and lightening rods he was...we need to vote."

clint


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: Cluin
Date: 29 Oct 04 - 06:49 PM

Voting in Florida 2004.


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: Ron Davies
Date: 29 Oct 04 - 11:28 PM

Cluin--

That's just fantastic--actually, although I'm hard-core pro Kerry, I thought the Kerry video lampooning his not exactly folksy style was dead on.


The idea of coaching from Clinton was inspired, and the gauge.

Everybody, all over the political spectrum, should see it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: Ron Davies
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 10:15 PM

Refreshing to remind everybody to check out Cluin's link on "Florida Voting 2004"---it's some of the best humor of the political season---both the Bush and, especially the Kerry video.


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: Peace
Date: 04 Apr 05 - 12:31 PM

Refresh

(Can't do the link.)


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