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BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!

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Mark Ross 20 Oct 04 - 04:05 PM
DougR 20 Oct 04 - 04:36 PM
Once Famous 20 Oct 04 - 05:13 PM
GUEST,Clint Keller 20 Oct 04 - 05:22 PM
open mike 20 Oct 04 - 06:59 PM
Amos 20 Oct 04 - 07:20 PM
Alonzo M. Zilch (inactive) 20 Oct 04 - 09:00 PM
Once Famous 20 Oct 04 - 10:17 PM
frogprince 20 Oct 04 - 10:30 PM
Ebbie 20 Oct 04 - 10:38 PM
katlaughing 21 Oct 04 - 12:20 AM
GUEST,Clint Keller 21 Oct 04 - 12:48 AM
Seamus Kennedy 21 Oct 04 - 03:10 AM
Mark Ross 21 Oct 04 - 11:03 AM
Teresa 21 Oct 04 - 12:03 PM
GUEST,smiler 21 Oct 04 - 01:29 PM
George Papavgeris 21 Oct 04 - 02:07 PM
GUEST,smiler 21 Oct 04 - 02:35 PM
GUEST,Larry K 21 Oct 04 - 04:52 PM
Once Famous 21 Oct 04 - 05:34 PM
Ron Davies 21 Oct 04 - 08:06 PM
McGrath of Harlow 21 Oct 04 - 09:11 PM
katlaughing 21 Oct 04 - 09:16 PM
Ron Davies 21 Oct 04 - 09:53 PM
GUEST 22 Oct 04 - 11:20 AM
EBarnacle 22 Oct 04 - 11:54 AM
Amergin 22 Oct 04 - 12:00 PM
GUEST 22 Oct 04 - 12:18 PM
GUEST,smiler 22 Oct 04 - 04:03 PM
Peace 22 Oct 04 - 10:23 PM
Ron Davies 22 Oct 04 - 11:16 PM
Charley Noble 23 Oct 04 - 11:09 AM
GUEST,smiler 23 Oct 04 - 02:40 PM
Amergin 23 Oct 04 - 05:41 PM
GUEST,Amazed 23 Oct 04 - 06:00 PM
Jeri 23 Oct 04 - 06:24 PM
Charley Noble 23 Oct 04 - 07:53 PM
GUEST,Art Thieme 23 Oct 04 - 10:11 PM
GUEST 24 Oct 04 - 11:41 AM
GUEST,Art Thieme 24 Oct 04 - 12:11 PM
GUEST 24 Oct 04 - 12:39 PM
GUEST,smiler 24 Oct 04 - 12:41 PM
Jeri 24 Oct 04 - 02:09 PM
GUEST 24 Oct 04 - 02:25 PM
GUEST,smiler 24 Oct 04 - 02:46 PM
GUEST,Clint Keller 24 Oct 04 - 03:27 PM
Charley Noble 24 Oct 04 - 03:32 PM
GUEST 24 Oct 04 - 03:51 PM
GUEST,Clint Keller 24 Oct 04 - 05:00 PM
GUEST 24 Oct 04 - 05:19 PM

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Subject: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: Mark Ross
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 04:05 PM

Just got this and figured it needed to be passed on to all of you Mudcatter's.

Mark Ross



"Voting for the First Time"
    by Carolyn Crane


    Utah Phillips is a folk singer who tours the United States,
    delighting audiences with his outlandish stories and challenging them
    with the ruthless honesty of his insights. A veteran of the US Army
    who served in Korea, he rode the trains for years after coming home
    in despair from what he'd witnessed overseas. He met Ammon Hennacy in
    Utah at the Joe Hill House for Transients and Migrants and discovered
    anarchy and pacifism.

    These tenets have since shaped his life and work. Phillips and I live
    in the same Northern California town, Nevada City, where he was one
    of the founders of our thriving Peace Center of Nevada County. It was
    from the community radio station there that he produced Loafer's
    Glory, a collection of stories, poems and songs set to the
    accompaniment of Woody Guthrie-influenced guitarist Mark Ross. And it
    was to that radio station he went in late September to share with his
    community an important political decision he'd made, which caused him
    great difficulty and pain.

    You surprised many people who are familiar with your work with your
    announcement that you were going to register to vote for the first
    time ever.

    This is not easy for me. I'm an anarchist and I've been an anarchist
    many, many years. The anarchy that I've followed and practiced all of
    that time came to me through Dorothy Day and the Catholic Workers,
    through Ammon Hennacy, the great Catholic anarchist and pacifist.
    Ammon taught me, as he did, to treat his body like a ballot. My body
    is my ballot. And he said, "Cast that body ballot on behalf of the
    people around you every day of your life, every day. And don't let
    anybody ever tell you you haven't voted." You just didn't assign
    responsibility to other people to do things. You accept
    responsibility and see to it that something gets done. That's the way
    he lived and that's the way the past forty, going on fifty, years
    that I have lived. It's a way to vote without caving in to the civil
    authority I'm committed to dissolving.

    But, we are in a desperate situation here. And it's not just us in
    the United States. There are people all over the world who are
    affected by these people who have staged a coup on our government.
    I can see a shopkeeper in Damascus who's threatened by being bombed
    out. I can see a schoolgirl who's collaterally killed by the action
    of these people. There are millions of people in the world who are
    affected by the actions of this government, and they can't vote in
    this election. I have no use for Kerry. I have no use for Bush. I
    don't like either one of them, but these folks can't vote in this
    election. They have to have people vote for them. And I intend to
    be one of those. What's the best chance they've got to keep them
    from being bombed and killed? I don't know. Kerry is an unknown
    quantity. Bush is a known quantity. A crapshoot, isn't it? But I'm
    going to stand in for one of these people. And if I'm wrong, I'm
    wrong by myself.

    When you made your announcement, you talked about women who have
    inspired and influenced your decision. Can you talk a little
    about that?

    I learned a great deal from Judi Barry. I drove and talked with her
    the day before her car got blown up in Oakland in 1990. She had come
    around to the idea that direct action and political action are two
    hands of the same body. I think as an anarchist and when you keep
    company with other anarchists, as I have in the IWW, the Industrial
    Workers of the World, and this is my fiftieth year in the IWW, you
    develop a great antagonism toward the political process, toward
    statism in any form. However, many of us have come to realize that
    political action and direct action are two hands of the same body. We
    have to learn how to work together: the street and the ballot box. In
    places like Philadelphia or Boston, Massachusetts, when they put
    freedom in jail, when they put freedom of assembly and freedom of
    association and freedom of speech in a bullpen with razor wire around
    it, they put freedom in jail. In the bullpen on Pier 57 in New York,
    when my daughter [Morrigan Phillips] was jailed for trying to shut
    down Wall Street in an act of nonviolence civil disobedience.

    They're trying to tie that direct-action hand behind our back. If
    they succeed in that, how long will it be, how long are we going to
    hang on to the other hand, the political action hand? Every
    significant social movement in this country--anti-slavery,
    suffragette, labor movement, peace movement--all started on the
    street. All of them began on the street. Don't give up the street.
    The street's where we win. We vote with our feet. That's where it all
    begins. Made a song about that. Bodhi Busick put a nice tune to it.
    No, I won't give up the street. But in this instance, at this time,
    at this place, I think the situation is so dire that yes, I have
    registered to vote and I am prepared to stand in for one of the
    victims of the kind of brutality that the people in Washington bring
    to the world.

    You've said that your choice to not vote, to not participate in the
    system in that way, is one of the most sacred promises you've made. I
    know what it means to you to make this decision. It's sobering,
    because I think: Are things really that bad?

    Yeah, it is that bad. Now, I am not putting myself forth as an
    example. I'm not putting myself forth as a role model. Anarchists
    don't make rules for other people. You make rules for yourself and
    then people have got to learn how to trust you. And if you blow it
    you have the courage to change, and you do change and an anarchist is
    always something you're becoming. I don't need any congratulations
    for what I'm doing at all. I feel lousy about it. I don't feel good
    about it all. I'm simply going to do it. And if there are
    consequences of my act, than I harvest those consequences. That too,
    is anarchy.


This article can be found on the web at:

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20041025&s=crane


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: DougR
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 04:36 PM

Wow! I'm awed.

I assume he will be voting for Nader, right?

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: Once Famous
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 05:13 PM

Amazing how people have died for the right for him to be such an arrogant non-voting American.


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 05:22 PM

If rights were granted only to those you -- or I -- approve of they wouldn't be worth much.

clint


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: open mike
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 06:59 PM

hello? Utah served his country...and continues to do so.
"A veteran of the US Army who served in Korea"


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: Amos
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 07:20 PM

Martin:

Arrogance is where you find it, I guess. SOmetimes an intensely deeply felt decision can take on the same colors. I suspect you know this first hand.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: Alonzo M. Zilch (inactive)
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 09:00 PM

I assume he will be voting for Nader, right?

From what I gather, it's the need to defeat Bush that is motivating Bruce to vote. If defeating Bush is the point of the exercise, then I would assume he'll be joining former-Naderites like Pete Seeger who are voting for Kerry.

Amazing how people have died for the right for him to be such an arrogant non-voting American.

I would think that a Korean War vet has earned the democratic to choose whether or not he votes.

About 50% of Americans don't vote. Some people don't vote out of pure apathy. Others don't vote because they don't feel that any of the candidates are worth voting for. That's a choice that we are free to make in a democracy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: Once Famous
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 10:17 PM

For sure we are free to make that decision.

The 50% who do not vote are truly the biggest losers.

Amos, arrogance is like a gaping wound. It's no mystery where to find it. Most who are arrogant wear it on their sleeve. Sometimes an intensly deeply felt decision is just pure arrogance in it's rawest form.

A Korean war vet who doesn't vote diminishes the memory of the ones who died during that and any war that America was in.


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: frogprince
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 10:30 PM

Martin, How much different is that from saying a conscientious objector doesn't deserve to live in America? This is a different thing than sitting out an election out of plain apathy.
(And why am I letting myself in for it by starting an exchange with Martin for the first time).


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 10:38 PM

If you have ever listened to the man, you are aware of where he stands politically, morally and ethically- and you can and will make up your own mind as to where you fit in. If voting is the act of letting others know what you believe in and work for, Utah Phillips has been voting all his life.

Go, UU Phillips.


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 12:20 AM

Thanks, Mark.

As Ebbie, said, Go UU Phillips!


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 12:48 AM

I think few of us have the integrity and courage to live, and have lived, Utah Phillips' life, or that of Ammon Hennacy. They both deserve great respect, whether or not you agree with them.

clint


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 03:10 AM

If you don't vote, you can't bitch about the results.
Arrogance or not.

Seamus


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: Mark Ross
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 11:03 AM

Martin
You obviously didn't read the article carefully enough.

Here's a song I wrote Tuesday, that I sent to Utah. It's to Woody Guthrie's tune for THE GREAT DUSTSTORM.

Mark Ross



"W" MUST GO
On the 2nd of November, in the year 2004,
The people will get together and show George Bush the door,
It's not that we like Kerry, but we can't stand George B,
He may be the worst President that we will ever see.

He's not our country's savior, he's not our country's hope,
When he smiles and says he's doing right, we think that he's a dope.
Every time he's on TV I just can't watch that man,
For everything he's done to all the poor folk in this land.

He spends more time in Texas than he does in D.C.
He thinks the price of freedom is giving up liberty.
He says the war on terror, that battle can be won,
But he wasn't paying attention on 9/11/01.

He has sent our soldiers overseas to conquer in Iraq,
And he leaves us wondering when they'll be coming back.
When he smiles and says the battle's won it makes my blood just boil,
For we know that what he's doing is trading blood for oil.

And all his friends the bankers, getting rich at our expense,
By taking money from the poor, it just don't make no sense.
Just like all politicians, he knows what gets him votes,
Even though his promises are nothing but a joke.

It's time that we got together to finally make a stand,
So head down to the voting booth with your ballot in your hand,
So let's send him back to Texas or some other very hot place,
Maybe that will finally wipe the smile from off his face.


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: Teresa
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 12:03 PM

Love the song, Mark.

Would that the world had more people with U U's integrity.

T


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: GUEST,smiler
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 01:29 PM

If you don't vote you have every right to bitch about the results.

It's when you DO vote you have no right to complain about the result, as you accepted the deal.

Some people don't believe that one cross every four or five years, for someone who may or may not keep to their manisfesto is democracy. People are worth more than that.

If I don't vote, I am not subject to the government, their taxes or laws as I didn't partake of the deal by voting.


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 02:07 PM

For the record, I admire UU for his integrity, though I am not aligned with him politically.

GUEST,smiler, I suggest that you DO in fact partake of the deal, even when voting; every time you make use of a civil service (just getting a passport, or a driver's licence, or sending your kids to school, or drinking the tap water that has been certified by inspectors, or fly in an aeroplane and use the FAA services). Just by posting this message in fact you have partaken of the regulation of frequencies over the telecommunications lines.

It is virtually impossible to live in a place and to not partake of that country's government and its decisions and constructs.

So, as you take advantage (knowingly or not) from "the deal", you also carry the responsibility. By not voting you register a personal position on the matter - neutral to the voting process, but a position all the same.


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: GUEST,smiler
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 02:35 PM

These things EG, are done whether I am there or not. I am not consulted in the matter. What passes for western democracy consists of about 10 or 15 crosses throughout a lifetime

Also, everyone who disagrees with an illegal war, is also responsible for it, if they voted for any party in such a system.
that elected a rogue party.

Hitler was elected in this way. If no-one votes, it would be a chance to replace it with a local, not global form of government, based on needs,not exploitation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 04:52 PM

I had the pleasure of having Utah Phillips stay at our house at a guest for 3 days and provide transportation to and from our folk music festival.    A few observations.

What you see is what you get.    Utah and I disagree politically on just about everything.   However, we never got into an argument and he showed great respect for everyones opinion.   He spent a lot of time on the phone calling people and checking votes, and elections, and following up on causes.    No phonyness about him whatsoever.

He mentioned that he would not do public tv as he didn't want to support that.   Probably hurt his carreer.   The funny story is that the planes went on strike right before our festival and he had no other way of getting to NJ.   He had never crossed a picket line before, but got permission for the local unions.   At the airports he joined each picket line before getting on the flight.   He did a whole set of union songs on Saturday night as pennance.

A utah line-   A guy came up to me and put a gun to my head and said who are you going to vote for- Bush or Kerry?   I thought about it for a few seconds and said shoot me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: Once Famous
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 05:34 PM

I read your song Mark. You have to much time on your hands.

If Bush wins, you should have spent your time doing something else. If he loses, it's definately because of the song you wrote.

"If you don't vote, you can't bitch about the results.
Arrogance or not.

Seamus "

Right on, Seamus

Not voting and whining equals just whining.


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: Ron Davies
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 08:06 PM

"When no-one votes"----yeah right Guest smiler----I'll clue you, since you're touchingly naive----that will never happen. There will always be true believers of one stamp or another who will vote. If you don't, you're subject to their decisions. Didn't you even once pay attention in your civics class?


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 09:11 PM

"My body is my ballot. Cast that body ballot on behalf of the people around you every day of your life, every day. And don't let anybody ever tell you you haven't voted."

How many people can put their hand on their heart and say they would measure up to that? Compared to that, putting a cross in a box or pushing a button every few years doesn't add up to that much.

If voting is the start of doing that, it can mean something. If it's just an excuse for sitting back and doing bugger all, it means bugger all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 09:16 PM

Great job, Mark! Thanks for sharing it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: Ron Davies
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 09:53 PM

Actually Guest smiler, civics lessons shouldn't be necessary--a bit of common sense would do the trick----is that a foreign concept to you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 11:20 AM

I don't care if or how Utah Phillips votes. If or how a celebrity (folk or otherwise) votes has never influenced my voting and it never will. I don't know why anyone would care one way or the other about Utah Phillips voting habits. It all seems silly to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: EBarnacle
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 11:54 AM

If it's not too late where you are, register to vote. Then choose whether or not to vote and for whom. If you ain't registered, you have no choices and deserve what you get.

EBarnacle (who has already voted by absentee ballot because he will be in Florida keepin' an eye on things)


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: Amergin
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 12:00 PM

Well good for him!

I am one of those who always votes, in every selection. You know in Oz voting is compulsory? I hear you get fined if you don't go down to the polls.


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 12:18 PM

Not voting merely ensures that democracy fails. If every voter dissatisfied with the system showed up and destroyed their ballots, it shows politicians that they care, and are not satisfied with the status quo. Better yet, get involved and create a third party to garner such support, and you would see a vast change for the better in politics.


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: GUEST,smiler
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 04:03 PM

As the old saying goes, “If voting changed anything, they'd abolish itâ€쳌.

I urge everyone not to vote. It only encourages politicians to drop bombs on some poor buggers somewhere.

This comes from common sense.


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: Peace
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 10:23 PM

I have missed very few opportunities in this life to vote. On occasion I have marred my ballot and put a few words on it to voice disapproval with the candidates. However, personally, I think voting is important, even if it means I only destroy the ballot. I have to go there to do that. It's the goin' there that's important, along with the decision as to who gets the vote.

I met Bruce a few times, and although I don't agree with his anarchist views, he is an honourable man, good story teller and fine singer/musician. I have respect for him, and I also like many of his political conclusions.

That he will vote on this occasion is a statement from him that maybe some folks should consider. He has only one vote, and when he casts it, he will cast with it a lifetime of nonviolent non-participation in that aspect of politics. Interesting.


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 11:16 PM

Tell you what---- GUEST 22 Oct 2004 12:18 PM--" If every voter dissatisfied with the system showed up and destroyed their ballots...."

You do that.

I'll vote.

Hope you like being governed by the people I choose.


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: Charley Noble
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 11:09 AM

Now I have led a good life, full of peace and quiet
But I shall have an old age, steeped in rum and riot;
Yes, I have been a good lad, gentile and artistic;
I shall be a grandad, coarse and anarchistic!

Having marched a picket line or two with Utah and shared a few late morning digressions, I am pleased to hear this gruff old bear is willing to join a growing majority of voters who are gonna vote Bush out of office.

And, yes, I'll be happy to join Utah in any subsequent demonstrations against the new Kerry Administration if he fucks up as well!

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: GUEST,smiler
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 02:40 PM

You've got no moral right to demonstrate against those you voted in. You give them your cross for the next five years, and that is one you have to bear.

Elections are a waste of time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: Amergin
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 05:41 PM

Smiler, as we are living in a country that bestows free speach to it's citizens...and visitors, we have a moral DUTY to picket against those who do not follow the will of the people, irregardless whether or not we voted them in or not.

I just came back from a couple of hours knocking on doors getting people to vote. Voting is the important thing here, how you vote is your business. ACT now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: GUEST,Amazed
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 06:00 PM

The most amazing part of this thread is that the most arrogant mudcatter in the history of Mudcat, Martin Gibson, calls someone else arrogant!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: Jeri
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 06:24 PM

GUEST, smiler wrote: " If I don't vote, I am not subject to the government, their taxes or laws as I didn't partake of the deal by voting." That's one of the funniest things I've read in a while.

You also said " It's when you DO vote you have no right to complain about the result, as you accepted the deal."

I didn't accept it if my candidate loses. Even if he wins and I don't like what he's doing, I still have the right to complain. In fact, I probably should complain even louder. In the US we can basically complain about whatever or whomever we want, whenever we want.

In reality, the only meaning not voting has is that your voice isn't heard. The results will still affect you, but if you're comfortable handing over your future to others, I don't see any problem with not voting.


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: Charley Noble
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 07:53 PM

I think I'll go watch our video of last Wednesday's West Wing.

Thanks for the support, and cheers for Utah!

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 10:11 PM

My friend, Utah, in reacting so admirably to the life that has been dealt him, has made a remarkable philosophy for that life and for himself. He has once again shown brilliantly why he has always been so worthy of my admiration. As Van Ronk said, "Sometimes you must part with your principles, and do the right thing."

Art Thieme


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 11:41 AM

"Sometimes you must part with your principles, and do the right thing."

If you have to part with your principles to do the right thing, you've obviously been holding to the wrong principles.


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 12:11 PM

Not at all.

Art Thieme


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 12:39 PM

Really? Would you please explain how, if one believes firmly that the principles and values one adheres to are good, fair, and just, that one's actions would not follow?

This is exactly the disconnect I, and other radical progressives, have with the liberal Democrat politics of capitulation and appeasement. We keep hearing from the liberal Democrats how the left in America has a history of splintering apart at the first sign of weakness or drift to the right in their political party.

One reason why I have decisively left behind the notion of voting for Green Party candidate Cobb, is because of just that sort of fallacious argument being put forth against those who chose to stand by their principles and do what they believe is the right thing.

There is a faction within the Greens that has capitulated to the Democratic Party, to appease the Democrats' wrath with Nader and the Greens for the 2000 election. That faction is being led by David Cobb, and the Green Party members who argued for and won the right turn at the June convention in Milwaukee, where Nader/Camejo were shut out.

That overreaction to the events of the 2000 election is what is at the root of the current progressive movements splintering, not the rightward movement of the Democratic party. Times change, even if the tired old dirty tricks and tactics of the imperial liberal Democrat reactionaries stay the same.

I am not now, nor have I ever been, a member of the Green Party. For that very reason. The Green Party is now mostly made up of middle class liberals with very narrow, naive, and narcissistic worldviews, and mostly single issue "in my backyard" politics. They fear the rigorous, theoretical and practical debates which are, IMO, the great strength of the progressive left, not it's weakness. I have never been a "within the system" activist. My political and social activism has always been to agitate, educate, and organize for change from outside the political system, not inside it. I have participated in successful and unsuccessful campaigns for change. That is par for the course.

My fears about this election are rooted in an understanding that the threats to the global environment, global justice and world peace come not from a single person or party but from systems, and that no matter who is elected, the systems of empire and capitalism remain in place. Both Bush and Kerry are committed--by their words and deeds--to the maintenance of the capitalist empire. I recognize there are differences between the two, and some of the differences aren't inconsequential. But those differences are not substantial enough for me to vote for Kerry, because of his clearly stated goals of fighting to defend the middle class (at the expense of the working class and poor) and the capitalist empire that protects the interests of the middle and upper class.

Bush and Kerry are both pro-war candidates. Both pledge virtually unconditional support to Israel in its brutal and illegal occupation of Palestine. The two candidates' hawkish rhetoric on Latin America and the Caribbean is virtually indistinguishable. And both Bush and Kerry are committed to continuing to spend more than $400 billion on an insane military system that has little to do with national security and much to do with the maintenance of empire and corporate profits.

On foreign and military policy, Bush and Kerry differ mostly in style and strategy, not fundamental aims. Much is made of Kerry's commitment to traditional alliance politics, which some have pointed out would likely be more effective in the long term than Bush's go-it-alone strategy. If Kerry rebuilds U.S. alliances with other powerful states, especially in Europe, it might allow the empire to continue for a longer period.

That is why I am both sticking to my radical progressive principles AND doing the right thing, by voting for Nader on November 2nd. Lucky for me I have that right in Minnesota. Unfortunately for many Nader supporters, they have been deprived of that right by the liberal Democrat lawyers who have fought so undemocratically to keep Nader off the ballot in the other battleground states.

I'll also be here doing the same work I have always done on November 3rd, opposing either Kerry or Bush after the election, just as I did before the election. It makes no difference to me which one is president, because it is the systems I am fighting against, not just the systems leadership.


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: GUEST,smiler
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 12:41 PM

Jeri

Re your last post.

An election is a contract between the state and the people. You enter that contract by voting. If I don't vote, I am not subject to that contract. What's so funny about that?

It seems that Utah Phillips is a hero a) Because he didn't vote b) because he's now voting.

That's his choice. He'll only be voting for a different person delivering the same shit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: Jeri
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 02:09 PM

What's funny? The idea that a person isn't subject to taxation or laws simply because they don't vote. Try holding up a bank or refusing to pay your federal income tax. Send them a letter explaining why it's ok for you to do these things and see what happens.

It's not a contract, it's a process that contiues and changes. If you remove yourself from the process, you only remove yourself from the process and the decisions made. It sounds like this whole process and the concepts involve seem foriegn to you anyway.

As to principles vs 'doing the right thing', it comes down to compromises between ideals and reality. A person may believe in communism, and yet still has to work for a living.


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 02:25 PM

Everyone is free to compromise their ideals, their values, and their principles to justify voting for a bad guy. In fact, that is what most of the US voters do election after election, so I don't expect it will be any harder for them to do this time than it is any other election year.

The statement "A person may believe in communism, and yet still has to work for a living" shows a profound ignorance of facts. Communism doesn't have anything to do with working vs not working. It has to do with distribution of the wealth that is created by collective work, and an opposition to allowing individuals and nowadays individual corporations acting legally as entities with the same rights as individual persons, amassing wealth/capital which is inherited, stolen, extorted, etc. from others.


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: GUEST,smiler
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 02:46 PM

Jeri

There's a subtle difference between holding up a bank, and withholding your taxes.

In the first instance you are robbing others (however much the bank may morally deserve it). In the second instance, you are preventing the government from robbing you, of the fruits of your labour.


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 03:27 PM

Ammon Hennacy, Utah's mentor in many ways, didn't believe in taxes because he didn't believe in governments. He also believed in taking the consequences of his actions - that's part of being an anarchist - and he didn't want to go to jail because it would interfere with his work.

Now, you can only stay out of jail and pay no taxes if you don't own anything so Ammon faced up to it and quit owning things. He gave all he had away, including any income he got, and lived and ate in the mission he ran. and he never owned anything the rest of his life.

He wouldn't ever call the police because they're an arm of the government. And so on.

That's integrity; putting your money where your mouth is. Go and do thou likewise, smiler.

clint


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: Charley Noble
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 03:32 PM

Well argued, Guest (could you provide us a Guest name?), but in my opinion your vote for Nader is somewhat tarnished by his financial support from conservative right-wingers. I was not aware of such cyncial financial support for Nader when I voted for him in 2000; he captured 6% of the vote in Maine then.

However, I'll welcome you at the barricades if you've got the courage to follow through on your convictions. However, I'm not gonna hold my breath waiting. I'm sure you can rationalize why it's more important for you to be some place else.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 03:51 PM

Sigh.

Charley, the nasty, Democratic circulated rumor that Nader has accepted money from the Republicans is just that, nothing else. It isn't true. He didn't accept tainted money in 2000 or in 2004.

As to your second looney paragraph, I don't expect anyone to take what I say at face value here, for many reasons. But then, I'm the only one looking myself in the mirror every morning, so what an entity calling itself "Charley Noble" says in an internet chat forum about me and the way I vote matters not one iota to me.

What should matter to everyone else, is that no one here has succeeded in hobbling together a cogent argument that rings true enough to defeat my arguments. Now, why is that? I don't profess to know. I just know that the arguments for Kerry are as weak and contradictory as arguments against Nader are around here.

And BTW Charley, nobody's vote can be tarnished, period. But especially not by the opinions of someone who disagrees with the way the the person freely chooses to vote.

Kerry's supporters really are insecure. They seem to have no faith in the system they profess to be working within, to save us all from conservative Republican rule.

I am increasingly convinced that a whole lot of Democratic Party supporting Mudcatters are increasingly comfortable with the idea of fascism, so long as the fascism is applied to Republicans they hate, and the people they perceive as being their enemies, like Nader and his supporters, people who don't vote because they don't believe in the system, etc. Way too comfortable with it for my blood.

Thank the lucky stars above for folks like Bobert and Guest Smiley being here is all I can say!


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 05:00 PM

GUEST

Please read what I posted above on 24 Oct 04 - 03:27 PM, and measure yourself against Ammon Hennacy as far as sticking by your ideals, values & principles. Let us know how you come out.

clint


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Subject: RE: BS: Utah Phillips is going to vote!
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 05:19 PM

Why should I Clint? I have never claimed I would or should hold myself anyone else to some obscure old anarchist's standards, just because I choose to stick by my own principles.

What is the matter with some of you people? Why on earth would you think I am to be held to some person's standards (who I not only don't know, but have never even heard of) rather than my own, just because of how I choose to vote?

Oh right--because some of you people believe you should have the control over others to dictate what YOU think their values SHOULD be.

You people are looney tunes! Cuckoo!


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