BS: US Politics and Global Warming

Subject: BS: US Politics and Global Warming
From: Pied Piper
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 12:12 PM

I'm really worried; looking at the map of those states that showed some sense and didn't vote for Bush, what you see is that there all near the coast.
Sea level rise due to global warming (and come to think of it earthquakes) could further reduce the number of decent folks and the handling Rattle Snakes mob could be in permanent control.

PP

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics and Global Warming
From: DougR
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 04:14 PM

PP: I think you can go back to your cage now. They should have it cleaned up by now.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics and Global Warming
From: Once Famous
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 04:19 PM

Why don't you worry about changing your shorts everyday? Or is it that you have no clean ones because you are worried that you might use up all of the water?

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics and Global Warming
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 01:32 AM

Pied Piper, you are in real serious trouble. You appear to have titivated the appetites of the predators!You will be smothered by words of wisdom. Just look at the MG stuff----
A news item on CNN today [Monday] reported that there was evidence of a looming tragedy due to the melting of the polar icecap, and that this was attributable to global warming. The inevitable editorialising on Blitzer's own channel brought the comment from the bright blonde newscaster that the news wasn't all bad, as it was thought that gas and oilfields in Northern Russia might well become exploitable. As all the posters on this thread so far know, this is typical of attitudes found all the way to the top--and not only in the U.S. The wilfully blind, the greedy, and the plain stupid ones deny the existence of the stone wall ahead. The rest are coming close to despair.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics and Global Warming
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 01:37 AM

That's right, Doug and Martin, keep repeating to yourselves;

"There's no such thing as Global Warming"
"There's no such thing as Global Warming"
"There's no such thing as Global Warming"
"There's no such thing as Global Warming"
"There's no such thing as Global Warming"
"There's no such thing as Global Warming"
"There's no such thing as Global Warming"

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics and Global Warming
From: Peace
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 01:41 AM

Google

Global Warming

and read the latest articles about it. Then, have a good night's sleep. It is NO joke, folks.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics and Global Warming
From: freda underhill
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 01:50 AM

new report on warming in the arctic

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics and Global Warming
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 01:50 AM

Global warming is indeed real, and NOT man-made. If one looks at climate over the long term, we have been in a "little" ice age for some time- which got worse in about 1100 AD. Now, the climate is shifting back to the normal that we can expect. The polar ice caps will melt, reducing the reflectivity of the earth even more, and we will have near tropical condition well up towards the poles. Just a natural shift. You can't blame this on modern industry, the Bush administration, or even Diebold. It's just the way things are- so get used to it.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics and Global Warming
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 01:53 AM

of course, we will have hundreds of years to sit back and argue over whose fault it is.....

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics and Global Warming
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 01:57 AM

BB, if you really think we have the luxury of that kind of timeline left for our species, then feel free to join in the chorus of;

"We don't need to worry about Global Warming,
Stickin my head right back into the saaannnd"

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics and Global Warming
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 01:58 AM

Even Democrats should be able to move uphill, if they get their heads out of the sand and look at reality....

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics and Global Warming
From: dianavan
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 02:00 AM

beardedbruce - Sources please.

d

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics and Global Warming
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 02:06 AM

crossposted:

I meant that the effect of global warming will be to raise the water level by some feet per year. The first state to go under will be Florida. Look at the elevations, and you will see that the BLUE states will have almost no loss of area.... Pied Piper is really out of line on this one. If anything, all those red states will send population into the blue states, where the liberals can properly educate them and make sure that they vote according to the Party Line.

We are far more likely to destroy enough of the infrastructure, or allow terrorists of some sort to destroy it, so that the poulation will be greatly reduced, without any need to worry about global warming.

Or that asteroid that we should be looking for, but don't quite want to fund the search for is going to hit, and give us a few hundred years of winter- Now that would stop global warming, since once the ice caps build up, they reflect the sunlight that would melt them, and the glaciers would return...

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics and Global Warming
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 02:09 AM

Sources?

Books on climatology, history ( think about the viking Greenland colony), basic physics, astrodynamics.... Not everything requires a soundbite from the net.

I am more authoritative on crustal motion- climate is such a transient phenomenom...

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics and Global Warming
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 02:10 AM

But, of course, it is all theory, so we can argue about it, as the water rises arond our feet, and the world starves as the food growing regions shift...

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics and Global Warming
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 03:03 AM

"And the melting of glaciers is expected to raise world sea levels by about 10 cm (4 inches) by the end of the century."

from the CNN article...

Looks like I was wrong on the feet per century- but I don't know if this includes the polar ice caps, or just glaciers.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics and Global Warming
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 03:06 AM

You seem confused b.b. Sometimes in denial. Are you saying that man made atmospheric pollution has NO effect on the climate? If you are not, then to advocate letting the status quo prevail reeks of moral bankruptcy. Or are you one of those who have recognised the likely future and has just given up? Global warming is happening NOW at a faster rate by far than has ever been detected through archeological investigation. Reputable science has suggested that the rate of species extinction today is faster than the great extinctions of the dinosaur period. If humankind accepts that their actions are having climatic effects, then it follows that it has a much greater moral obligation to take action to arrest or reverse those effects than any that George Bush ever prayed to his "god" about. The measures promised by the Kyoto accord are woefully inadequate. Those being approached by the US administration are abysmal, and, frankly, cowardly.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics and Global Warming
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 03:17 AM

Boab,

Have you ever looked at the numbers? The primary cause of climatic change is NATURAL causes, such as volcanoes ( how many major erruptions in the last 20 years?) and solar flux change. The sun is a variable star, to some degree.

Should we try to reduce pollution? OF COURSE. But to decide that that is the cause of the warming is an act of hubris far beyound any that the Bush Administration has ever demonstated. We might slow, or speed things by a percent- but that would take a major effort, and I think that the effort would be better spent using the resources to help ease the REAL shift that will happen, regardless of political decisions.

As for species extinction, that is primarily due to habitat destruction. All we need to do is have mandatory birth control, and reduce the population down to sustainable levels, to keep the level of available animal habitate constant. So, who gets to decide who will have children? (And I mean a serious, population reducing level- like one birth per 10 couples per decade.)You? Me? I certainly don't want that job. Or should we just kill off everyone who disagrees with you, leaving enough room for the animals? I am open to a reasonable method- but the moral bankruptcy is not on my part.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics and Global Warming
From: freda underhill
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 03:35 AM

I guess the title and responses on this thread say it all - when politics (read business interests) tries to interfere with science, we have global warming being denied by those ideologoically opposed to accepting it is occurring, including those responsible for taking measures to address it.

Boston Globe on global warning 9th Nov 04

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics and Global Warming
From: muppett
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 04:36 AM

The end of the last ice age was due to global warming and sea levals rose by several tens of feet, that wasn't due to industry,lack of government policies or the greed of companies. However that's not to say that the modern way of life doesn't contribute towards it, t'other week I was going to a conferance in Rotherham (UK),went in a mini bus with some local residents and we went along the motorway, the journey was only 30 odd miles in length but it took a couple of hours to do it, we got stuck in lines of traffic and the vast majority of them had one person in them. Three or four buses or coaches could have carried these folk, but no what happens instead gridlock, road rage & pollution and they say it'll get worse, Roll on Amergedon!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics and Global Warming
From: emjay
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 01:44 PM

From the Anchorage Daily News, Nov. 9, 2004

For decades, an oceaninc and atmospheric pattern known as arctic oscillation has been stuck in a phase that increases warming over parts of the Arctic. In recent years, the pattern has shifted to a more neutral state, "yet the Arctic is still warming and we're still losing sea ice," said Mark Serreze, a researcher with the National Snow and Ice Date Center in Colorado, who contributed to the report.
"This is one of the pieces of evidence that we're starting to see more clearly the effects of greenhouse warming," he said.

Since this is from a wire service, it has obviously been widely circulated. A geologist friend offered her insight into all of this when she said that one of the advantages of being a geologist is that she is able to take a long term look at the problem. A very long look! She sees humanity killing itself off, but the world will go on just as it has through other catastrophic events. She sees that as the solution to a people created problem that people will never attempt to cure.
This thread is evidence of the unwillingness to correct. Just deny, deny, deny. Even here in Alaska where global warming is seen clearly year to year, people deny it or say it is just part of the natural cycle. The quotation cited above seems to say maybe it's not.

For more information of the report go to www.adn.com/links

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics and Global Warming
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 02:02 PM

The science is pretty solid in some ways about global warming. It happened without industrial greenhouse gases all on it's Ice Age own. But that doesn't mean that greenhouse gases aren't precipitating the global warming.

Now, for those of us here in Minnesota, that ain't such bad news. We, uh, kinda like the globe around here warming up a bit!

But that said, the dangers of greenhouse gases and pollution are becoming alarming, if for no other reason than the rapidity with which they have built up in the atmosphere and are causing serious health effects, effects on agricultural systems, economies, etc.

Then there is that pesky fact that we aren't going to have fossil fuels to kick around for much longer, even if Bush DOES drill in the ANWR and everyplace else on the globe, and strip mine every coal field, and exploit every pocket of natural gas.

We pretty much have used most that stuff up, it's making us sick, when technology should be extending our lives AND the quality of them, that sort of thing.

Not to mention, the fossil fuel economy is bankrupting us ethically, financially, burning up other resources...

The list of reasons why we need to welcome the brave new world of alternatives is a couple of miles long at this point. We need to be worried, because one thing about climates--they change alot faster than than the tectonics do. Which means these changes will effect, if not us, then our kids or theirs.

It ain't about the being of political rightness, it is about sound stewardship, and being proactive in deciding what kind of world we want to live in, considering the limitations over which we have no control.

Can we stop global warming? No. Do we want to try and slow it down? Maybe, maybe not. But we should at least be allowed to discuss it thoughtfully, without getting shouted down by the Republicans and Republicrats, who keep patting us on the head and telling us not to worry, their experts will take care of everything.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics and Global Warming
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 05:35 PM

b.b.--by the tone of your postings, I wouldn't be surprised at all if you'd heard, or even read, Mona Sharon or Dr Dixie Lee Ray. Mona Sharon was a rabidly right wing columnist, and Dr D.L.R. claimed to be a scientist , and was also a right wing politician. Where they both are nowadays I don't know. Somewhere they can remain harmless I hope. Mona Sharon, like yourself, waved the "volcano factor" at everybody. The "scientist" Dixie Lee Ray, went so far as to deny the existence of acid rain! I do not deny the effects of volcanic activity. And, moreover, I am aware of the production of methane gas and co2 from the very fact of living and breathing as an animal. The methane emissions from cattle are enormous. But volcanic action, living and breathing --and eating--are essential parts of the continuation of life on this Planet; the profligate use of fossil fuels, the escalating masses of military vehicles [planes included], the over-consideration for those of us who drive gas-driven vehicles, and the constant barrage of t.v. advertising for gas-guzzlers which are seemingly being manufactured for blithering idiots who don't even drive on a highway ---none of these are essential, and indeed are having an obvious and accelerating effect on our world. We must recognise the difference between necessity and frivolity; otherwise, I dread what lies in the future for my Great-grandchildren---and I do have some.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics and Global Warming
From: Once Famous
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 05:43 PM

It's supposed to be a very cold winter.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics and Global Warming
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 05:45 PM

well before florida and other parts of the south are underwater,
expect a lot more hurricanes, heatwaves, droughts and floods. The last couple years are probably only a small indication of whats to come.

recently an Inuit village in the north, came across an insect theyve never seen before and do not even have a word for in their language. It turns out it was a wasp. and it was a lot farther north than its ever been. The polar bears wait longer and longer each year for the ice to form so they can start hunting. The permafrost will melt,
(less snow and ice in the north will also reflect less sunlight into space and further increase global warming)

there is nothing wrong with the greenhouse effect, in fact thats what keeps us alive, it the runaway warming that is a threat.

Although GW BUsh finally admitted global warming is a fact, the Pentagon already published a paper last year on the same topic, and how to use military means to control diminishing resources.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics and Global Warming
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 08:09 PM

Boab

Never heard of either one...


But I do have a college education, and a few decades of work experience. Sorry if I don't agree with your political conclusions.

And I certainly do not deny that global warming is taking place- READ MY POSTS!

I just don't think you can put the political spin on it that you are obviously trying to do. If a nearby star goes nova, I expect a number of people here to blame it on the Bush administration...

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics and Global Warming
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 08:58 PM

Well, the good news is that Washington DC is also at sea level. The bad news is that the secret bunker under the mountain where the shadow government hides out is quite a bit above sea level.

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics and Global Warming
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 09:03 PM

WHich bunker doe you mean? None of them are very secret...

And I think 4 inches might not even get up to the Mall... Certainly not Capitol Hill.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics and Global Warming
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 09:11 PM

Don't worry. It'll be poor people in other parts of the world who will really be hit before the USA has any serious problems.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics and Global Warming
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 09:31 PM

That's true, beardedbruce. I know about the under-mountain bunker in Drainsville, VA (my dad worked there for a while), and I've been past the one further north, I think in Loudon County VA (can't remember the name).

I bet all those beautiful old row houses in Georgetown and Old Town Alexandria will go under though.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics and Global Warming
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 09:33 PM

Which is what I said- all the money spent in political argueing should be used to help those who will be most affected by the warming.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics and Global Warming
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 09:36 PM

Sorry, Carol- crossposted...

The location of all the alternate command posts and government shelters has been in the open press for better than 30 years.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics and Global Warming
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 09:42 PM

all the money spent in political arguing should be used to help those who will be most affected by the warming.

Should, but won't. There's no need for political argument about this, any more than there is about whether cigarettes cause cancer. But as in that case, there are people with vested interests in pretending the case is still wide open. And that most signifcantly includes the people in power in the USA.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics and Global Warming
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 09:53 PM

Sea level rise is by far NOT the biggest threat from global warming. How about loss of thermohaline circulation in the oceans? The geographic shifts in zones hospitable to agriculture and even habitation will be enormous. Imagine entire countries in Northern Europe either starving or moving south. The global upheaval will be unimaginable. The Pentagon is actually planning for such a cataclysm.

Five years ago, despite nearly unanimous scientific consensus, The Right claimed that global warming was a myth. Interestingly, they now admit that it is in fact real, but deny human involvement. The proof of human involvement (with deforestation and consequent loss of monstrous carbon sinks/reservoirs rivalling greenhouse gas emissions) is rapidly mounting and unanimity is again on the horizon, and The Right is again clinging vainly to tiny shreds of dissent.

Thoise who state that it is simply a natural cycle, and that life will go on are quite correct. Life on earth has survived many such cataclysms over the millenia. Life has even survived massive extinctions brought on by life forms themselves (witness the PreCambrian poisoning of anaerobic life due to their production of the modern oxygen atmosphere). After each cataclysm, life did indeed survive, even flourish. But, the array of life forms was often vastly different.

I have no fear at all that the planet and many life forms will survive global warming. But will my grandchildren? Are you willing to risk it? Is short-term economic hardship worse than possible condemnation of our descendants?

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics and Global Warming
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 10 Nov 04 - 03:27 AM

Observe B.Bruce---the previous post. Now THERE is your political "spin". How you come to assert that I used it in my post I don't know. Unless it was the mention of the fact that Dixie Lee Ray was a right wing politician? Well , that is a fact, and no "spin" is involved. The term , in any case is similar to "political correctness"---it has been too often used in attempts to belittle opposing opinions. [ not that I accuse yourself in this instance!]
You are correct in restating on my behalf, though, my detestation of the Bush administration.
Peace----

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics and Global Warming
From: Stu
Date: 10 Nov 04 - 05:15 AM

There is a grain of truth in bb.s assertion that global warming is a natural phenomenon. As for returning to a 'normal' temperature, there is no such thing, as temperature variation is cyclic and doesn't really ever settle for any length of time.

There is some evidence we are in an interglacial, and the geological record is full of evidence that the earth has been much warmer, without permanent ice caps many times before (during the Mesozioc for instance). Check here for a brief discussion on the effects of interglacials and temperature variations between the ice ages.

There is no doubt in my mind that anthropogenic activities have exacerbated the process, but in geological terms this will not be noticed by geologists 10,000 years from now, who will see rapid warming but nothing that they would not expect.

All that said, Bush's attitude to the Kyoto protocol and the US public's deep desire to use the earth's resources as fast as possible and sod everyone else is not going to make life easier for anyone, including themselves in the long run.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics and Global Warming
From: mooman
Date: 10 Nov 04 - 10:13 AM

I'm getting more and more brassed off by the global warming denial expressed by some here over recent years.

Here is a definitive report from the

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics and Global Warming
From: mooman
Date: 10 Nov 04 - 10:18 AM

Sorry...end of post and link lost above...

I'm getting more and more brassed off by the global warming denial expressed by some here over recent years.

Here is a definitive report from the Arctic Climate Impact Assessment organization published last Monday.

I'm afraid it's 146 pages of rather depressing reading...

Expecting the usual Pavlov's 'Catters to come along shortly and rubbish it.

Peace

moo

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics and Global Warming
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 10 Nov 04 - 10:43 AM

They keep telling me that global warming is coming and if we don't do something it will be 5 degrees warmer in 50 years.   I live in Michigan and it is very cold here.    I can't wait 50 years.   Why can't that global warming come now.    Every time I look at my winter heating bills I keep thinking "if only we could have global warming now".   (Fortunately, I have a geothermal heating and cooling systems so my bills are very low)

Maybe I should go rent the movie "the day after"

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics and Global Warming
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Nov 04 - 11:11 AM

Like I said, it isn't just global warming that is the problem. It is the ozone depletion, climate change, sea level changes, agricultural ecosystem changes, pollution, etc. that comes along with the increased levels of greenhouse gases.

I can't even believe people are still debating whether or not these pollution issues are a bad thing or benign.

Our technology has saved us from ourselves and our idiocy so far, but we are most definitely running out of time and quick technological fixes to problems that result from global warming AND ozone depletion AND pollution.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics and Global Warming
From: Stu
Date: 10 Nov 04 - 12:20 PM

Moonman - it is not an expression of denial over global warming, but just how much man's activities are causing it. In the case of global warming, my opinion is there is an impact from pollution and the relaease of greenhouse gasses, but the temperature is probably rising as we are on the upward curve of a warming-cooling cycle.

The real problems arise when you take into account deforestation, the overfishing and pollution of our seas etc. We are currently in the middle of what may turn out to be the largest mass extinction in the planet's history, and when you look at the P-T extinction, that is grim indeed. And there is no doubt about who is causing that.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics and Global Warming
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 10 Nov 04 - 12:23 PM

Yes, The Right loves to say "what's the big deal about a 5 degree rise in temperature?". They are, of course being deliberately obtuse, and insisting upon fiddling while Rome burns. Global average temperature increase in the world's shallow oceans of less than 5 degrees has led to the death of 70% of the world's coral in the last decade. The right wing coal miners say "big deal, it's just one dead canary".

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics and Global Warming
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Nov 04 - 12:29 PM

Larry K, you old hippie you.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics and Global Warming
From: DougR
Date: 10 Nov 04 - 01:54 PM

Good news today from CNN! Bush is going to drill for oil in the Alaskan wilderness! All that oil just lying there that can be used to fuel our cars and our homes! Looks like he may be able to pull it off this time. Thread creep, I know, but I'm sure you wacko far left environmentalists would want to know this if you haven't heard.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics and Global Warming
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 02:59 AM

Now read above--this is an example of what should NEVER be in a position to either influence economy or environment. The tragedy is that such as this already ARE in powerful positions. However, since they don't much care about Iraqi kids, they are unlikely to worry over much about ours.....

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics and Global Warming
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 03:02 AM

---And thread "creep" is a perfect description, since you want to throw your own twisted insults around.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics and Global Warming
From: Peace
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 03:16 AM

The main threat to our planet will come when oil stocks deplete. When we have to burn wood and coal for heat, then we shall see polution such as seldom before in our planet's history. THEN, we will have serious issues that make global warming in a hundred years seem like issues we'll have time to solve. Right now, it's our almost complete and total dependency on fossil fuels that is scary. It's a dependency we have that will have to be reversed or seriously curtailed, because the planet cannot take it.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics and Global Warming
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 01:38 PM

DougR says "All that oil just lying there that can be used to fuel our cars and our homes!"

For 180 days DougR, 180 days.

And who says 180 days?

Those far left environmentalist wackos at the US Department of the Interior*

*USFWS (2002), "Arctic National Wildlife, Refuge Report on the Potential Impacts of Proposed Oil and Gas Development on the Arctic Refuge's Coastal Plain: Historical Overview and Issues of Concern"

Then again, 180 days of oil does solve the whole problem 'cause the Bush supporters don't have memories that long.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics and Global Warming
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 03:00 PM

They just hate to see all those potential profits sitting there under the ground instead of in their pockets.

Subject: RE: BS: US Politics and Global Warming
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 10:07 PM

It's not just the profits, it's the tribalism. If Rush Limbaugh told them their sphincters had taste buds, they'd be sitting on lollipops.

Actual quote from Limbaugh:

"C'mon folks, think about it...If the ice caps were melting, the world's oceans would be getting cooler."

Wadda Maroon.