Griz? Any in captivity?

Subject: Griz? Any in captivity?
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 11:22 PM

Tonight, while reading the journals of Lewis and Clark, I find myself wondering if there are grizzley bears in any of America's zoos. Or anywhere else in captivity. I would think it would be like trying to keep a tornado or a volcano in a shoe box!

Art

Subject: RE: Griz? Any in captivity?
From: Amos
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 11:24 PM

I think there's one on the SD Zoo, Art, but I am not positive.

They are purdy wild all right!


A

Subject: RE: Griz? Any in captivity?
From: Amos
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 11:34 PM

Based on putting +zoo and +grizzly into Google it seems that there are Grizzlies in the SanLouis Zoo, San Francisco Zoo, the Bronx Zoo, and the Denver Zoo, among others.

Also Oregon and Fresno. Here is a snapshot of the Grizzly in the San Diego Zoo looking tough but lonely. Check out the Kodiak gentleman in this series also!

A

Subject: RE: Griz? Any in captivity?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 11:37 PM

San Antonio zoo has two of 'em, both of which are relocated "nuisance bears". ARTICLE HERE

Subject: RE: Griz? Any in captivity?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 11:42 PM

That's no "gentleman", Amos. That's my ex-father-in-law.

Subject: RE: Griz? Any in captivity?
From: Amos
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 11:45 PM

The Kodiak in question is viewable here. My, he looks like I feel!

A

Subject: RE: Griz? Any in captivity?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 02:31 AM

Even the Como Park Zoo in St. Paul, MN—which is quite puny and old-fashioned as zoos go—has a Kodiak bear. Oddly enough, the Minnesota Zoo, which is much bigger and more modern, has neither a Kodiak nor a grizzly.

Subject: RE: Griz? Any in captivity?
From: Peace
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 02:42 AM

'San Antonio zoo has two of 'em, both of which are relocated "nuisance bears".'

That is one major handful of nuisance.

Subject: RE: Griz? Any in captivity?
From: GUEST,Rapaire
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 09:06 AM

Charlie and Stripes live in the zoo right here in Pocatello. The kids love them and would like to hug them and they would love to hug the kids (but not for the same reason).

Subject: RE: Griz? Any in captivity?
From: Alaska Mike
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 10:27 AM

Kodiak bears and Grizzly bears are the same species. Scientists originally thought the Kodiak bear was different because of its large size, but found out later that the larger size is simply due to the higher amount of protein (salmon) in its diet. Genetically, there is no difference.

The Alaska Zoo has a very nice Kodiak/Grizzly named Oreo. By the way, the biggest bears are no longer found on Kodiak Island. Decades of trophy hunters have decreased the average size quite a bit. The biggest bears are found now on the Alaskan Peninsula. Trophy hunters are wiping them out in record numbers too.

Mike

Subject: RE: Griz? Any in captivity?
From: Amos
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 10:42 AM

Must take a lot of courage to take one of them high-powered rifles out and shoot a bear with it.

Like to see them do it with a bowie knife!


A

Subject: RE: Griz? Any in captivity?
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 11:37 AM

It's been done, but not by anybody who wasn't absolutely forced into it.

In 1823, [Hugh Glass] joined the Major Andrew Henry expedition to the upper Missouri. He was scouting with some others when he came between a female grizzly bear and her two cubs. He was severely injured, slashed from head to foot. He was bleeding profusely. It was not a matter of if he would die but when. The other members of his party carried him on a litter for several days waiting for him to die, but he still held on. Now came a decision. They were going through dangerous Indian country. They couldn't jeopardize the entire party for one man. So two men would stay behind with him, young Jim Bridger, and a man named John Fitzgerald. Finally after a week it looked like he had died, showing no signs of life. So Bridger and Fitzgerald packed up to go, taking Glass's gun and gear.

But somehow he came out of his coma, so weak he could only crawl. His back was infected from the bear wounds. He rolled over onto a rotting log and let the maggots eat the infection out of his back. Then he started dragging himself toward Fort Kiowa, a trading almost 200 miles away. He lived on the meat of dead animals and rattlesnakes. He slowly gained his strength so that he could walk upright. Most on his mind was getting revenge on the two men who had left him. At one point he was almost run over in a buffalo stampede.

He narrowly avoided being seen by Indians. After somewhere between two and three months he reached the fort. At the fort other mountain men were amazed at his story. He nursed himself back to health. He became obsessed with finding the two men who deserted him on the trail. He discovered that Fitzgerald was working for the military as a scout. He was told he would be hunted down and killed if he killed a soldier. He caught up with Jim Bridger, but had not realized he was just a boy and inexperienced. He forgave Jim Bridger.

A Brown Bear was shot and killed by an Alaska woman using a .22 caliber pistol, too. She was very very lucky.

A Tlingit living near Juneau came across a hiberanting griz. He told his buddy that he was going to kill the bear with an axe, the way his ancestors did. About all you can say was that the fella survived.

There's damned good reason why, from the Ainu to the Apache, the bear has been held in such high regard.

Subject: RE: Griz? Any in captivity?
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 12:03 PM

I've seen brown bear three times. Once on my first drive up to Alaska there was a sow on the road. I was driving a Toyota and she seemed to me to be almost the same size as the car. That's prob'ly an exaggeration. The other time on a hiking trip our party startled a young lone bear ahead of us, he took off up a thickly brushed hill at a speed none of us could have matched even unobstructed. The other time we observed a sow with cubs eating berries way down slope ahead of us, so we took a two hour break to let them put some more distance between us.

There used to be controversy as to whether grizzlies were the same species as brown bears and the consensus seems to be that they are, the 'hump' that supposedly characterizes the griz is a trait of some of the larger browns.

The current advice upon 'close encounter' with bears in the wild is that with a brown bear you play dead, with a black bear you are obliged to fight, because while Alaska brown bears have been known to kill people in the course of mauling, black bears have been known to eat people. This is by far the exception, the core problem with bears in the wild, similar to people in fact, is that they are unpredictable. A bear may have cubs nearby, a mate, might be in a bad mood, or protecting a food source.

The brown bear Oreo at the Anchorage zoo was obtained as a cub, they placed him in a with a polar bear cub named Apoon, and the zoo sold videos of them playing with each other, very cute. As they got older, one of them became much more aggressive toward the other (I forget which) and they were separated.

More advice on traveling in bear country:
When you are going into bear country, your best tactic is to let the bears know you are coming. Experienced hikers wear little bells. You should also carry deterrent pepper spray.
You should also be familiar with bear sign. Bear scat is found in large mounds containing little bells and smelling of pepper.

Subject: RE: Griz? Any in captivity?
From: frogprince
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 12:12 PM

Have some of the 'cats read the Darwin Award books? They gave an honorable mention to one woman whom the rangers in Yellowstone caught just in time; she had smeared honey on her little kids face, planning to get a picture of a bear licking his face.

Subject: RE: Griz? Any in captivity?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 12:28 PM

Alaska Mike: That's what I've heard, too, that Kodiak and grizzly are the same species. But I was surprised to see that the Como Park Zoo website identifies its bear as a Kodiak, not a grizzly, so I decided not to raise the issue. Maybe the web site was put up by volunteers who don't really know the facts. It's a small, low-budget zoo, so I wouldn't be surprised.

Subject: RE: Griz? Any in captivity?
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 12:30 PM

Anyone ever read the book Death In Yellowstone? You don't fool with wild animals -- not bears, not lions, not pika, not deer, not marmosets, not nothin'. Look from a distance, but don't approach. Use a telephoto lens for a closeup -- the professional do.

"The critters in these woods ain't tame. Your remains will not be returned to your next of kin."

Subject: RE: Griz? Any in captivity?
From: KathWestra
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 01:56 PM

There's been a real change in the way the National Park Service treats grizzly bears, at least here in the lower 48. Alaska has more bears and different problems, which Mike has alluded to. Up until the early/mid '70s, people would sit on bleachers near one of the hotels in Yellowstone National Park and watch the park rangers feed the bears all the garbage from the park's restaurants. Then, someone "saw the light" and decided that feeding wild animals human trash as a tourist attraction was maybe not such a good idea. But instead of thinking through a plan for weaning the bears away from their garbage feasts, they stopped the daily feedings cold turkey. Two things happened: 1) the grizzly population in the park crashed, because the bears had grown unaccustomed to finding their own food and starved to death and 2) "nuisance" bears--i.e. bears who rooted around in trash cans and hung around near humans because they were used to being fed--suddenly became a problem in the park. Now, the grizzly bear population in Yellowstone is back, but certainly still threatened. We humans are so damn smart...

Subject: RE: Griz? Any in captivity?
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 02:28 PM

I recall in Yellowstone -- the 1960s -- while hiking in the back country a Czech girl and a Swedish guy had paired off and gotten away from the group. Two griz with two cubs were surprised by them and both hikers were killed. The rescue party killed both bears eventually. The female bear, when opened contained the Swedish guy. They did not bother looking in the other bear because the knew the Czech was in the male! (rimshot)

Thanks for all the insights folks. I appreciate it. There is a decent film on Hugh Glass' encounter and ordeal called MAN IN THE WILDERNESS!

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Griz? Any in captivity?
From: Alaska Mike
Date: 15 Jan 05 - 01:20 AM

Jim, the bears that actually come from Kodiak Island are still referred to as Kodiak Bears. They used to be the largest bears in the world. There is even a standing Kodiak bear engraved on the badges of Kodiak police officers. Large grizzlies in Alaska that do not come from Kodiak Island are usually called Alaskan Brown Bears. Genetic tests have proven that the Kodiak/Alaskan Brown is the same species just bigger.

Since the NRA and the Boone & Crockett crowd are always looking for the biggest and most impressive, we get them up here from all over the world. Its a very big industry. Thousands of dollars for a special hunting permit, thousands more for a licensed guide and outfitter, thousands more for preparation and taxidermy of the carcass.

The rich get to kill one of the earth's mightiest creatures and there's not a whole lot the rest of us can do about it. When you have seen these great bears in the wild from 10-12 feet away as I have, it is very hard to understand how our elected officials continue to allow this slaughter to happen.

Mike

Subject: RE: Griz? Any in captivity?
From: open mike
Date: 15 Jan 05 - 01:56 AM

there was a fellow...i think he may have bbeen a national geographic
photographer...he was mauled by a bear and had severe scars on his
face..and maybe other places, too. he often lived and worked in proximity to the bears...in teh 70's and 80's i think. A few years ago he was killed by a bear. he had some incredible pictures, though, and several students who he trained, too. I will look for more info. try
thei link: http://www.yellowstone-bearman.com/bearupd.html

Subject: RE: Griz? Any in captivity?
From: robomatic
Date: 15 Jan 05 - 03:36 PM

Link to a great photographer of Alaskan Bear and Moose:

Michio Hoshino

Subject: RE: Griz? Any in captivity?
From: KathWestra
Date: 15 Jan 05 - 07:54 PM

Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww. Art. The Czech was in the male. Ouch.

Subject: RE: Griz? Any in captivity?
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 15 Jan 05 - 09:41 PM

I think I started this thread because it seemed to me that it'd be   a travesty if any of these magnificent ceatures were in any zoo at all. They seem to demand the wilderness for their well being. And now that I realize that the Kodiak bear is the same as a grizzley, I remember that Lincoln Park Zoo in Chicago where I spent a ton of my spare time while growing up always had a Kodiak bear or two. So I already knew the answer to my query. --- Anyhow, thanks again.

Art

Subject: RE: Griz? Any in captivity?
From: harpgirl
Date: 15 Jan 05 - 10:03 PM

Hi Art,
I couldn't figure out what your thread title was, so I opened it! I just loved that book. I especially enjoyed imagining the natural landscape of America as it was described...so many interesting trees, plants, shrubs, animals, and of course, mosquitos!

I seem to recall seeing a grizzly in a zoo but can't remember the zoo. It might have been either San Diego or St. Louis, or Detroit Zoo.

Subject: RE: Griz? Any in captivity?
From: Kaleea
Date: 16 Jan 05 - 12:06 AM

Believe it or don't, I have a bit of history with the Griz. As a little girl in the early 60's, my brothers & I were hiking in the Northern Rockies. It was late fall and a rather warm weekend for Colorado.   We came upon a cave & my little brother & I decided to explore. We had always thought that our father was the loudest snorer on the face of the earth. We giggling that we were wrong. When my older brother found us, he had already gone for our father who came with a flashlight. That was when we realized that the big furry thing was not snoring. We ran. Fortunately the Griz was sleepy enough to be slow.
    Then one summer when I was a teen, I went back to the Rockies to summer camp. I decided to go with the group horseback riding one day, so off we went on the trail. In the late morning we saw something really big & dark in the distance. The teenage kid leading us on the trail ride was rather freaked out. Almost as much as our horses. We made it back ok. The camp director had not bothered to let anyone know that there had been sightings of a large Griz since early that spring.
    Several years back when I was up driving back to the midwest one night, I heard a funny noise sounding like a belt broke & stopped & looked under the hood to check it out. A nice state trooper came along & decided to see what I was doing. When he pulled up behind me, he ran straight into a very tall furry thing. When his backup came, he & they put the Griz across the hood of the late 70's really big troopermobile & it hung over onto both fenders on either side. The other troopers couldn't believe it--or that I was not even touched by the bear. The leader of the local Arapahoe band was called, to help the spirit of the bear cross over, and we had quite an night.
    I haven't had any more Griz times, but have walked in the tracks of a Black bear in northern Wisconsin. I think I'm likely safe from Bears here in Kansas.

Subject: RE: Griz? Any in captivity?
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 16 Jan 05 - 11:54 PM

Harp,

The descriptions do take you away to places you've hiked and been yourself. I get more lost in their journals than I ever figured I would. Great reading. I'm glad I waited into my 60s before reading it though. If I'd read this at 25 I'd not've been enough places yet to have it mean as much personally for me. And it's nice to see that Lewis and Clark are two guys who spell even worse than I do.

Happy New Year, lady.

Art

Subject: RE: Griz? Any in captivity?
From: GUEST,Alaska Pete
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 04:27 PM

I am a grizzly in captivity. I burn with resentment. Each day I am stared at by dopey tourists who make dumb remarks to each other and photograph me. I would like to destroy each one of them in a ruthless and bloody manner. But these offences are minor next to the one abiding passion of my life, which is to get out of this cage, find Clinton Hammond, and wipe him off the face of the Earth! Yes, Clinton Hammond. He had the nerve, the absolute gall, to remark to a female companion, upon seeing me one day..."Now there's an ugly face. Nature at its worst. Living proof that there is no God." What a jerk! When I get out of this cage...and I will...I am going to track down Clinton Hammond. I have heard that he murders skunks. I have heard that he denies the existence of the Supreme Being. Well, he is going to call on the Supreme Being when he sees Alaska Pete come through the swinging doors at his last gig, but it won't do him any good! No sir. He will become the first folksinger to end a live performance in the jaws of the grizzly!!! I can hardly wait. I'm gonna eat his guitar too, just for spite.