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BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow
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Subject: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow? From: GUEST Date: 10 Aug 05 - 11:39 PM Don't know how many of you have been following the story of Cindy Sheehan, mother of a US soldier killed in Iraq, who is camped outside of Bush's Crawford ranch? But you can support Cindy's vigil to bring the troops home through the Crawford Peace House and if you believe in such things, sign the Bush Meet with Cindy petition online petition. You can also read about and listen to her tell her story at Alternet and an article she wrote published in March (warning: it isn't pretty) at the truthout website. Kinda boggles the mind to think All the Dubya's Men have abandoned the grieving mother of a fallen US soldier camped in a ditch outside Bush's ranch with a growing media circus, but there you have it. Rumors are flying that she will be arrested or "removed" tomorrow. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: Peace Date: 10 Aug 05 - 11:57 PM I wonder if she'll be spirited away and tortured until she recants her views? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: Bobert Date: 11 Aug 05 - 12:08 AM The noose is slowly tightenin' 'round Junior's neck... In this morning's Washington Post (Style section) there was an article about a wounded veteran who, when asked if it would be okay fir Bush to visit him fira photo-op, said "Hell no!!!" and said that was the sentiments of alot of other wounded vets... Problem with this war, other than the fact that it was started by a bunch of chickenhawks for political gain, is that the only folks doing the sacrificin' are the folks from the workin' class... Yeah, they are the one's diein' and they are the one's payin'... Meanwhile, Boss Hog and his chickenhawks stand way back and somehow want some glory laid at thier feet... Tell ya what, folks... These creeps of priveledge are startin' to loose their cover... You never want to loose yer cover... Right on, Cindy Sheehan!!! Take the bastards out!!! If it were my son, I'd be doing the same thing... Enough of Karl Rove's vision of America... Enough of George AWOL Chickenhawk Bush... Take him out, Cindy!!!! Take him out.... BObert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: Peace Date: 11 Aug 05 - 12:19 AM Bush has to rank up there as the biggest f###up in American presidential history. If he had any honour at all he'd find a sharp knife, face east and spill his own guts--instead of the guts of others. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: Azizi Date: 11 Aug 05 - 12:29 AM For background, see this dailykos post written by a friend of Cindy Sheehen: "The invasion of Crawford .. Look, let me tell you how this got started. On Wednesday, parents of soldiers who were going to the Vets for Peace conference (many of us are both veterans and soldiers of parents) began e-mailing each other to coordinate who was staying where, and other typical events that people do in advance of conferences. We were all flying into Dallas the following day. We all were pissed off hearing Bush's condescending pap about 14 soldiers killed that day. Cindy said, you know, I think I'll just go to Crawford while I'm in TX. I and several other parents said "us too!" and the word got out to the veterans than night and the following day, and it just snowballed from there. I was there Saturday and marched with Cindy where she, like Rosa Parks, decided to "stand up by sitting down." -snip- That post was in a diary that alerted members of that community {and lurkers like me} to the fact that several Clear Channel radio stations were planning an anti-Sheehen, pro-Bush barbecue in Crawford, Texas on Saturday with free food and free beer for attendees, including members from a nearby military barrack who were encouraged to come and chastise Cindy Sheehan for her stance. The founders of this event eventually backed off from this idea, supposedly because of a "lack of suffienct local interest". For more, see Cindy needs help |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: GUEST Date: 11 Aug 05 - 12:29 AM From Brecht: General, your tank is a powerful vehicle It smashes down forests and crushes a hundred men. But it has one defect: It needs a driver. General, your bomber is powerful. It flies faster than a storm and carries more than an elephant. But it has one defect: It needs a mechanic. General, man is very useful. He can fly and he can kill. But he has one defect: He can think. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: GUEST Date: 11 Aug 05 - 12:33 AM Yes, I've been reading from Daily Kos as well--they have this report on the probably arrests tomorrow: Cindy Sheehan to Be Arrested Thursday by David Swanson Mon Aug 8th, 2005 at 10:55:39 PDT (From the diaries -- kos) Cindy Sheehan phoned me from Texas a few minutes ago to say that she's been informed that beginning Thursday, she and her companions will be considered a threat to national security and will be arrested. Coincidentally, Thursday is the day that Rice and Rumsfeld visit the ranch, and Friday is a fundraiser event for the haves and the have mores. Cindy said that she and others plan to be arrested. http://www.meetwithcindy.org David Swanson's diary :: :: NOTE: CODE PINK is reporting that the idea of Thursday arrests started with speculation, not a threat from authorities. I am unable to confirm or deny that. Meanwhile, I have a voice message from Cindy saying that they left their spot on the side of the road because of a storm and now the Sherrif's men are trying to post no trespassing signs and force them to leave. I am unable to confirm or deny this or provide any more details. UPDATE: I got Cindy on the phone and she continued to maintain that the threat of arrest was real, but said that it came to her via Diane Wilson. I spoke to Diane, who said that it came from Texas State Rep Lon Burman, a Democrat. She said that he was not speaking on behalf of or communicating any information from the Bush Administration or the Secret Service or the Sheriff's Department. But she maintained that what he had predicted was already starting. Both Sheehan and Wilson said that the County Sherrif's deputies on Saturday identified several areas as county property on which they could stand. Now they claim that most of these area are private property, and that they had not known that. So, this afternoon the deputies forced Cindy and about 25 people with her onto one small area on one side of a road. Wilson said that they threatened arrest if anyone refused to move to the proper small area. Cindy was skeptical of the claims about who owned the land. "Can you believe that on the road to the President's house they don't know exactly who owns it?" Both she and Wilson said they expected they would get arrested Thursday. Cindy said, "I think we need as many people here on Thursday anyway, because Rice and Rumsfeld will be here....I'd rather not get arrested, but I'm willing to, I'm willing to have them pick me up and carry me away." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: Charlie Baum Date: 11 Aug 05 - 12:45 AM I was thinking the other day of John Kerry's line, "How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake?" Then I was thinking if you had to choose, would you rather have to die for a mistake or die for a lie? Not a happy choice, but if you had to choose? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: GUEST Date: 11 Aug 05 - 12:56 AM I'd choose neither. Remember, it's a volunteer army AND we have already had conscientious objectors both refuse to report for Iraq duty, refuse to return after leaves, and go to Canada. At the end of the day, every man or woman in the US military ALWAYS has a choice not to kill or be killed in war. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: Peace Date: 11 Aug 05 - 01:27 AM News as of an hour ago. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: Azizi Date: 11 Aug 05 - 03:26 AM Peace, I just checked in here at 2:50ish and clicked on the link you provided in your post [Margaret Carlson's supportive article about Cindy Sheehan]. Then I went to Daily Kos and found out that they don't have news of this article yet. That blog seems to usually have the very latest news articles about Cathy Sheehan before any other website. Good looking out! Positive vibrations, Azizi |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: Amos Date: 11 Aug 05 - 10:36 AM "On Friday, Bush will have to pass by Sheehan in his climate- controlled car with its tinted windows, kicking up dust and caking Sheehan's sunburned face, or forgo a fundraiser at a nearby spread. Bush lives in a bubble -- his pre-screened audiences applaud him for platitudes and for his resolve. He goes nowhere alone. He took Dick Cheney along to his interview with the 9/11 Commission. He isn't refusing to see Sheehan because he's callous but because he's like those of us listening to Lipscomb. Alone with Sheehan, he might find himself crying, over something his privileged position means he will never have to endure. " From link above by Peace. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: GUEST,G Date: 11 Aug 05 - 10:47 AM Do you people ever consider reading other news, articles, etc.? While I am pretty much a centrist (and I do have my own opinions) It is my policy to try and obtain information from all the angles. I did not denigrate WJC like this even though I felt that was the greatest waste of brainpower ever. This lady met with GWB earlier this year. She is now a pawn of a couple radical left organizations. Do you think she is funding this escapade on her own? No, she won't take anyone out, how in the hell could she? What a ridiculous thing to think, let alone say! Regarding the Washington Post article, don't think for a minute they will print anything to the contrary. I will look up an article I read the past couple days where a letter home to his Mother was read at his service. How he believed in what he was doing, it was an honor for him to be in Iraq and if people only realized the truth of how much positive had been accomplished. Agreed that some war vets have that attitude but not the majority. We have them volunteering to go back to Iraq after receiving a prosthesis. And going. Stories like the Washington Post pale in comparsion to the Regular Army reinlistment rate of 85 plus percent, 100 percent in some units. Of course, you will not see that on Buzz lash,moveon.org or hear it on Air America. It will be years before we really know the results of this Iraq war or all the aspects involved. The starvation of people there due to the UN scandal involving food for oil has been discovered and corrected. The UN,an abreviation for 'UNnecessary. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: GUEST,A dad for Cindy Date: 11 Aug 05 - 11:57 AM Guest, G One would be an idiot to expect the majority of soldiers currently serving in Iraq to be courageous enough to take a stand against this war. Their job, after all, is to fight any and every war their political leaders send them into, without question. That is how they have been educated by their military trainers and the isolated military culture to live and breathe in day after day. However, there are, as I suggested in posting the Brecht poem above, men and women who will always retain their critical thinking skills as a survival mechanism. And they retain those human faculties and think for themselves, regardless of how hard the military, the political establishment, and those institutions' sycophant media tries to "re-educate" them not to. You are also making an erroneous suggestion: that the families and friends of those who have chosen to put themselves in the military, and hence "in harm's way" must all agree with their military loved one's beliefs and choices. That also is ridiculous. The way for family members and friends to "support the troops" is simply to love them unconditionally, and do what they think is right, even when it is at cross-purposes with their loved ones in the military. It isn't a sign of love or support to privately or publicly go against one's own moral beliefs, especially on such grave matters of moral importance as war and the waging of it, simply to appease and mollify those who "support the mission". If you believe what the US & UK military is doing is causing grievous harm to themselves, to others (like the Iraqi people), and creating social, economic, and political instability and a state of perpetual violence in the process at home and in the theatre of war, then why would you shut up and be silent in the face of what is happening? The tone and content of your posting suggests you may not be much more than a pawn of neo-con conservatism, who can't or won't think for themselves. I say this because you don't even grasp the fact that we can easily detect that you are simply parroting the Republican party line on Cindy Sheehan's protest. You strike me as yet another brand loyal Republican, who refuses to think critically for themselves and instead parrots whatever the pundits and politicians say. People like that, be they Republican or Democrat brand loyalists never think critically, much less rationally, of what is best for the nation and the world, which is what our actual duty is as citizens of this supposedly free republic. It isn't our duty to blindly support unjust wars fought by the poor to enrich the wealthy elite. And thankfully, the lazy American public is starting to wise up to the fact that is what the Iraq war is really all about. It doesn't take a Democrat, Republican or a rocket scientist to look at the price of oil before George Bush and Dick Cheney's war, and to look at the price of oil today. The worse the violence in Iraq, the higher the oil companies raise the price at the pump and get away with robbing the people and the planet of their future. Cindy Sheehan is living proof of someone who regrets not taking a stand against the war BEFORE it happened, because she knows that if enough people in her position as a mother of a soldier being sent into harms way might just have been able to prevent the war from ever happening in the first place. I can't imagine how haunted she and her husband must be by their inability to convince their son not to go to Iraq. Anyone who attempts to silence her raw rage at the cause of her son's death is just plain playing partisan Republican games of the most despicable sort. This woman is genuine. The real deal. She once chose to keep silent about her opposition to the war, in order to conform to the tremendous pressures put upon military families to silence dissent in order to "support the troops", which as any thinking person knows, is merely a euphemism used by the military and political neo-con propagandists unquestioningly go along with the policies of the political establishment. Her rage is morally justified, which is why the Republican neo-con right is cowering in fear of her. They would do well to remember the Shakespeare adage of "hell hath no fury..." and stop scorning her and the other family members of the military now protesting the war. People like these few good men for instance. Or the Iraq Veterans Against the War. Or Veterans for Peace. Or the military families group Bring Them Home Now. Or Military Families Speak Out. Now, perhaps you haven't heard that there is a considerable movement of military families and members of the military who are united in their opposition to this war. That is understandable, considering the the mainstream media has heretofore refused to cover this burdeoning movement for fear of being "swift boated" by a well oiled neo-con propaganda machine. The political brilliance of this particular woman's strategy is breathtaking though: she went straight to the gates of Mordor, knowing that the entire White House press corps couldn't ignore her. She was right about that, even though it appears it was only her and one other woman who decided to storm the gates last Saturday after leaving the Veterans for Peace convention in Dallas. Not even the longest, most hardened veterans of the peace movement saw her coming. Those facts, and the fact that she will not temper her rage and anger, and DEMANDS answers to the tough questions our political and media establishment should have been asking years ago before the US sent in the troops, is what gives this woman such tremendous power. And I note that Senator John Kerry's name was NOT on the list of Democratic lawmakers who wrote a letter to Bush, urging him to honor this citizen's right to petition her government and express her views to the commander in chief about the execution of the war that took her son from her. Which speaks volumes about both him, and the mainstream Democrats. At least Joe Trippi had the woman on his radar. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: GUEST,G Date: 11 Aug 05 - 12:08 PM Guest, "A Dad for Cindy" Mindsets are a strange situation. Yours is so set in stone that it can prevent you from reading anothers' opinions/thoughts in a proper context. I give - it is not worth it. And they are just that, thoughts and opinions, yours, mine and everyones. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: Amos Date: 11 Aug 05 - 12:09 PM What she is doing takes a lot of balls. I woudl like to see any documentation or reference to the notion that she is being controlled by an organization. It isn't costing her much to stand on county land in Texas and all the publicity is being generated by news media as part of their overhead. So what are you talking about, G? I think the Rosa Parkes analogy is appropriate. And to use a standard Rpeublican line of logic "if so much good is being accomplished in Iraq, how come the media aren't all over it talking about it?" . A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: M.Ted Date: 11 Aug 05 - 12:43 PM Guest G, You seem incapable of accepting that people disagree with you. You think that the reason people don't come over to your point of view is that they have some sort of "mindset" against it--You are wrong in that view. Reasonable and intelligent people can differ on things and usually do--the fact that you don't understand that makes it look like you are not a reasonable or intelligent person-- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: GUEST,G Date: 11 Aug 05 - 02:51 PM M.Ted I acknowledge Guest by saying "and they are just that, thoughts and opinions, yours, mine and everyones". In his case, I don't him to "come to my point of view". He and I don't agree and that is fine. I am surprised that you cant come up with a diagnosis based on so little evidence. My one post. Reminds me of Senator Bill Frist in the Schiavo saga. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: GUEST Date: 11 Aug 05 - 02:55 PM But Guest G, that's just another propaganda ploy, claiming that everything is "just opinion" and a propaganda strategy used when one is trying to be dismissive. Some things are opinions, true. Some things are agreed upon facts. It is a fact that the current "swift boating" of Cindy Sheehan is taking place in the right wing media, and your post is itself ample evidence of it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: GUEST,G Date: 11 Aug 05 - 03:03 PM Are not our opinions and thoughts based on what we read, see and hear? Whether the information is factual, biased, untrue or a result of propaganda from both sides of the aisle. Much is being made if Ms. Cindy. I will simply say to wait and see what is the result of those efforts. I found out, many years ago in the political spectrum, that first impressions are not always true and that personal hurt can result. It has only gotten worse no matter where in the whirlpool of politics you are floating. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: Clinton Hammond Date: 11 Aug 05 - 03:29 PM Awww... a solider got killed... boo hoo... That's their job... to kill, blow stuff up and die... I am thankful they DO their job... That way -I- don't have to |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: GUEST,Clint Keller Date: 11 Aug 05 - 03:41 PM " That's their job... to kill, blow stuff up and die... " But in this country at least, it's supposed to be for a good cause. Nobody approves of the Charge of the Light Brigade nowadays. Except authoritarian assholes. clint |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: Amos Date: 11 Aug 05 - 03:42 PM Sheeshe, Clinton...you are such a mongrel sometimes! A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: Clinton Hammond Date: 11 Aug 05 - 03:52 PM "it's supposed to be for a good cause" Says who? I'm sure the guys who crashed the jets into the WTC were certain they were doing it for a good cause too... Rev Jim Jones was leading his followers for a Good Cause... Tim McVey rented that truck for a Good Cause... The Crusades were lead by evil visious men, for a good cause... Hitler did what he did for what he believed to be A Good Casue... White people thought it was for A Good Cause, what they did to Africans and Native Americans... I'm sure a Good Cause put that round into the font of JFKs head too... Seems to me this so called "Good Cause" isn't very good at all... Amos... mongrel this ya great Nancy... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: Amos Date: 11 Aug 05 - 03:57 PM Aw, be of witchoo, ya bloody brick-headed cuss. If I didn't like ya so much I'd chew ya up and spit you out. I gootcher mongrel tidbit right here!! Now that yer married, be aware you may have chillun some day, at which point you may be better equipped to see where Ms Sheehan is coming from. Love, A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: GUEST,Larry K Date: 11 Aug 05 - 03:57 PM Have any of you read the open letter from Cindy Sheehan's family- It basically tells her to shut up. They feel she is a disgrace and does not speak for any of them. You can find this open letter on the Druge Report as well as other sources. Have any of you read the comments from Cindy Sheehan after her meeting with Bush a year or two ago? She thanked Bush for his compassion and understanding and felt he lifted her spirits. (I am sorry for bringing these two issues up- I know how it ruins the rantings in the previous e-mails- never let the facts get in the way of a good story) The question I would want to know- was she lying then or is she lying now? Both stories are completely contradictory. What made her change her story? Heaven forbid a media person to ask that question or bring up her previous comments. She was supposed to appear on O'Reilly last night but cancelled. another gutless coward. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: Clinton Hammond Date: 11 Aug 05 - 04:03 PM "I'd chew ya up and spit you out" From what I read, reported on the mensroom walls, you don't spit... "be aware you may have chillun some day" Don't threaten me like that!! And well, if we ever do breed, they sure as HELL won't be joining the military... "They feel she is a disgrace and does not speak for any of them." Smart people.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: CarolC Date: 11 Aug 05 - 04:07 PM She has earned the right to say what she is saying, regardless of whether or not anyone else agrees with her. She devoted the better part of twenty years of her life to raising and caring for the gun fodder her government sent into harm's way. She has a right to disagree with the use to which her government put her son's very short life. And on the subject of the quotes from the prior meeting, Cindy has said that she had agreed that that particular occassion was not the time to be making political statements. Plus, Larry K, you and Mr. Drudge have taken her comments out of context. In context, they mean something entirely different than what Mr. Drudge is making them out to mean. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: Clinton Hammond Date: 11 Aug 05 - 04:11 PM "She has earned the right to say what she is saying" Ya... but so have you... and so have I... and so has everyone else... So it seems to me, that makes it pretty worthless... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: GUEST,Clint Keller Date: 11 Aug 05 - 04:26 PM A US soldier is supposed to fight for a good cause in US terms. That's pretty vague, but I don't think it includes an administration's vanity war. Howsomever, some people automatically support authority and the status quo. Like the well-known "Good Germans" in Hitler's time. Decent people, except when it conflicted with being submissive. clint |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: CarolC Date: 11 Aug 05 - 04:27 PM We haven't "earned" it, even though we are entitled to it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: GUEST Date: 11 Aug 05 - 04:29 PM LarryK, the Drudge Report and Bill O'Reilly's show both have a pro-Bush agenda. They are spearheading the right wing media drive to discredit Cindy Sheehan. Who, by the way, doesn't need ANYONE's "permission"--not her son's, not her family's--to speak her mind. What an unbelieveably sexist crock THAT is. The woman is the mother of a soldier killed in action in a war she believes is illegal and unjust. THAT is the source of her personal power. But her authority is no lesser or greater than any other citizen who has the constitutional right to freely speak her mind anywhere she chooses, and to petition her government leaders to meet her and discuss policies she feels are detrimental to the nation. BTW, do tell--no, SHOW us this purported letter telling her to shut up, won't you? As to her refusal to appear again on the O'Reilly factor, if you go to Joe Trippi's blog, you will hear an interview with her explaining the reasons why she chose not to appear on his show a second time (hint: it has something to do with the despicable treatment she received on her first appearance on his program). As to her "changing her story" crap: that is an out and out lie. She first met with Bush while in the very early stages of her grief, shortly after her son died. Peoples' entire worlds change when they experience the loss of a loved one, and a parent's anger and anguish over the death of a child often is a trigger for them to transform themselves and their lives. Just ask Patty Wetterling or or John Walsh. The only people who never change are inflexible, fearful people like you, LarryK, who keep your head down in the sand, and refuse to change or consider any views and opinions that differ from yours and your tribe. GuestG, Ms Cindy isn't misrepresenting herself in any way. As she said in an interview you can listen to over on Joe Trippi's blogsite, just because she wasn't on the radar of the right wing media and blogosphere doesn't mean she just suddenly showed up on the side of Prairie Chapel Rd in Crawford, Texas last Saturday out of the blue. She has been active in the anti-war movement since her son was killed, and even testified before Congress on the Downing Street memo. She co-founded Gold Star Families for Peace. I wouldn't compare her to Rosa Parks, as much as I would to Patty Wetterling. One reason why Cindy words carry so much power is because she has actually had the "ultimate sacrifice" forced upon her, in the same way that Patty Wetterling and John Walsh were when their children were kidnapped. The "noble cause" they serve is the memory of their dead children. BTW LarryK, have you lost a son or daughter in Iraq? Have Drudge or O'Reilly? Has George W. Bush, who has draft-age daughters? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: Azizi Date: 11 Aug 05 - 04:29 PM See excerpts of an ABC TV transcript with Cindy Sheehan CHARLES GIBSON (Voice Over) You did have a meeting with the president just after Casey had died, and he came to console ... CINDY SHEEHAN Right. CHARLES GIBSON (Voice Over) ... the family. Why didn't you make the points to him then? CINDY SHEEHAN Well, mostly because my son had only been dead for about nine weeks and I was in a deep state of shock and a -deep state of grief, and I didn't really know, the Dalfour weapons of mass destruction report hadn't come out, the - Senate intelligence report, the 9/11 Commission report, the Downing Street memos, and those all just proved to me that this war was based on lies and it never should have happened. (in reporters terms, that's called the "nut graf". And so I went from a deep state of shock to a deep state of anger. CHARLES GIBSON (Off Camera) I want to play for you a brief soundbite from a man named Jim Boskovitch who was interviewed by George Stephanopoulos this past Sunday and whose son just did die as well in Iraq. I want you to listen to what he had to say. JIM BOSKOVITCH, SON KILLED IN IRAQ I firmly believe, and I would echo my son's feelings on this, that it is very, very important for our country to remain steadfast and complete the mission that they set out to accomplish. CHARLES GIBSON (Off Camera) There are a lot of parents who feel that way, who've lost children over there. What, what do you say to them? Does what you're doing in any way disrespect their loss? CINDY SHEEHAN No. I don't believe so. I believe that the only way we can honor our children's memory is -by bringing the rest of them home alive. But I'd like to say to these people is, number one, I wish they could tell me what the mission is 'cause the mission changes all the time and the mission is very ill-defined. And, number two, I would never, ever question how a parent has to grieve their loss because his son came home the same way my son came home, and I honor the way he feels, and I, and I also honor that this is America and there's - differing viewpoints and we all have the right to express our viewpoints. And I reach out to every single family who, who has lost loved ones in this war because we're all going through the same pain. And I just want to say that our children are being honored, and, and a lot of them died saving their buddies and that's what we're trying to do. We're trying to save their buddies..." -snip- As to an email that was purported to have been sent to Drudge from Cindy Sheenhan's family disgreeing with her actions, if indeed an email really did come from one member or multiple members of Sheehan's family [and I'm not totally convinced it did], so? Family members rarely agree on everything-even important things. Everyone has to make his or her own decisions. I admire Cindy Sheehan's courage to take a stand for what she believes is right. Azizi |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: Clinton Hammond Date: 11 Aug 05 - 04:31 PM " I admire Cindy Sheehan's courage" I applaud her courage... it's her methods I think are questionable... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: Amos Date: 11 Aug 05 - 04:34 PM I suggest she has a great deal more courage, and more moral authority, than any of those who are upbraiding her in these pages. To put it mildly; I submit that blind adherence to an immoral posture, on the basis of an authoritarian source, is cowardly. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: Azizi Date: 11 Aug 05 - 04:36 PM ClintonHammond, you have a right to your opinion as I do, and as Cindy Sheehan does, and all others. After all, America is still a free country, right? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: beardedbruce Date: 11 Aug 05 - 04:45 PM "and I also honor that this is America and there's - differing viewpoints and we all have the right to express our viewpoints. " Condy Sheenan "I don't know why you folks (some of you) seem to think it is accurate appropriate or acceptable to sling these damn labels around and pass judgments on huge lots of people in one swoop by classifying them as .... ( party deleted) or whatever. It is unconscionably poor thinking to make gross generalizations like that and pretend that some aspect of the label applies to all members of the class. It is not only bad thinking, it is also unjust to members of the set, and it is also -- because it distorts truth and promotes falsehood -- unethical. " Amos "I think thereis a third class, too -- the ones whose destructiveness toward others is hidden in little needling remarks, the chronic correctors of others, the passive-aggressive under-miners and invalidators, who sweetly suggest you are worth very little, just for your own good, and end up stopping you from breathing, the secret saboteurs and artfully smiling destroyers of spirit. They don't look destructive until you trust or rely on them." Amos "Decency, courtesy, and a respect for the underlying commonalities will always make for a lively and interesting dialogue amongst those of differing ideas. " Amos "It is the wild generalizations of sardonic hate -- which are untruthful, adversarial and essentially without any referent by which they could be called truth -- that annoys me. " Amos "You seem incapable of accepting that people disagree with you. You think that the reason people don't come over to your point of view is that they have some sort of "mindset" against it--You are wrong in that view. Reasonable and intelligent people can differ on things and usually do--the fact that you don't understand that makes it look like you are not a reasonable or intelligent person-- " M Ted |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: CarolC Date: 11 Aug 05 - 04:50 PM Clinton's interest in the political process in the US is more as a spectator, since he is a Canadian citizen living in Canada. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: Cluin Date: 11 Aug 05 - 04:59 PM "Clinton's interest in the political process in the US is more as a spectator, since he is a Canadian citizen living in Canada." I thought you knew better than that, CarolC. Our interest in the political process south of our border certainly exceeds that of mere spectator. Even for Clinton, though he'd probably profess otherwise. If the U.S. farts, we get a full whiff. There are also benefits, I hasten to add. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: CarolC Date: 11 Aug 05 - 05:04 PM I think it is accurate to say that your interest in the outcomes of our political processes go way beyond that of spectator. But the process itself is not something you can have any personal stake in unless you are entitled to vote in the US. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: Cluin Date: 11 Aug 05 - 05:09 PM Oh we can have a personal stake, just not a voice. But then you don't have a voice in ours either. But I doubt that keeps you up at night (or maybe it does, remembering who you're married too). ;) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: Clinton Hammond Date: 11 Aug 05 - 05:12 PM "America is still a free country" At that price, I'll take it... *Dials phone... Hello? Russia? I have something you might be interested in...* With appologies to Seth Green ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: GUEST Date: 11 Aug 05 - 05:17 PM Here is a poem written by one of Cindy Sheehan's family members: one of her daughters. A Nation Rocked to sleep by Carly Sheehan Brother Casey KIA 04/04/04 Sadr City Baghdad Have you ever heard the sound of a mother screaming for her son? The torrential rains of a mother's weeping will never be done They call him a hero, you should be glad that he's one, but Have you ever heard the sound of a mother screaming for her son? Have you ever heard the sound of a father holding back his cries? He must be brave because his boy died for another man's lies The only grief he allows himself are long, deep sighs Have you ever heard the sound of a father holding back his cries? Have you ever heard the sound of taps played at your brother's grave? They say that he died so that the flag will continue to wave But I believe he died because they had oil to save Have you ever heard the sound of taps played at your brother's grave? Have you ever heard the sound of a nation being rocked to sleep? The leaders want to keep you numb so the pain won't be so deep But if we the people let them continue another mother will weep Have you ever heard the sound of a nation being rocked to sleep? * * * * * * * Still waiting on a copy of the family letter at the Drudge Report, telling Cindy to "shut up". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: CarolC Date: 11 Aug 05 - 05:19 PM Actually, Cluin, your political processes are a source of fascination for me. And while the outcomes are important to me because I hope to some day have dual US/Canadian citizenship, until I have right to vote in Canada, the process itself is not something that concerns me personally one way or another. I think the distinction between process and outcome is very significant for the purpose of this discussion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: GUEST Date: 11 Aug 05 - 05:38 PM What does a forum member being Canadian have to do with Cindy Sheehan? It's an open, international forum. Anyone is free to express an opinion, regardless of whether or not they are able to vote in the US. It seems to me this Canadian/American thing isn't really on topic in this thread at all, and is distracting us from the discussion, rather than clarifying anything. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: Cluin Date: 11 Aug 05 - 06:21 PM New to Mudcat, Guest? It's the tangents around here that provide the real interest. And Carol, that's getting a bit too hair-splitty for me. Process.. Outcome... whatever! If I'm getting reamed, I'm getting reamed. It's all down to whether I'm enjoying it or not, process or outcome. Watching your processes getting highjacked was not enjoyable. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: CarolC Date: 11 Aug 05 - 06:22 PM It's an open, international forum. Anyone is free to express an opinion, regardless of whether or not they are able to vote in the US. I never said otherwise, GUEST,11 Aug 05 - 05:38 PM. I disagree that it is a distraction though. I am always interested in where people come from especially in the context of discussions like this one. Clinton is free to disagree with Cindy's methods, and I am free to point out the fact that he does it from the perspective of someone who does not participate in US politics on a personal level. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: GUEST Date: 11 Aug 05 - 06:37 PM Well Carol, we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't see how pointing out the nationality of a poster moves the discussion forward. It just plays into one of the forum's more dysfunctional aspects of labelling people in ways that just feeds stereotypical, preconceived notions of "the other". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: CarolC Date: 11 Aug 05 - 06:44 PM So did she get arrested today? Anybody got any updates on this situation? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: Bobert Date: 11 Aug 05 - 06:47 PM Will any of the Bush apologists here who have lost a child in Iraq please step forward... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: Peace Date: 11 Aug 05 - 07:16 PM 'Republican strategist Kellyanne Conway, president of the Washington-based firm The Polling Company, said: "Cindy Sheehan has tapped into a latent but fervent feeling among some in this country who would prefer that we not engage our troops in Iraq. She can tap into what has been an astonishingly silent minority since the end of last year's presidential contest. It will capture attention."' |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: bobad Date: 11 Aug 05 - 08:10 PM Perhaps Cindy Sheehan's action will provide the nucleus around which a protest movement will crystalize. I've been wondering why such a movement has not already arisen especially in the universities. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: Bobert Date: 11 Aug 05 - 09:17 PM And, hey, I'm gettin' a little tired of hearin' the neo-con PR machine program their little apologists to go out and say dumbass stuff like, "Well, this is your opinion..." Excuse my language, but this is pure bullsh*t! Let's do a little review here: During the run-up to war the Bushites said: 1. Saddam is trying to crank up nmuclear weapons. Rememeber the talk of mushroom clouds??? At the time there were credible folks oput there not being covered by the mainstream media but out there none the less sayin' "Bullsh*t"... And there were lots of us her at mudcat trying to get the brownshirt Bushites to listen but all they wanted to do was call us un-American and say that was just our opinion. Sound familar? 2. Then it was WMD's... Same game, same players, same results. It too was bullsh8t... 3. Aluminum tubes... Same 4. Links to AlQuida... Same But all along it was those who were *correct* who were constatntly being portaryed as the ones with the "opinions"... Many of us predicted an urban war that would end up in a quagmire... And what did the Bushite apologists do.. Called us unAmerican and opinionated??? Seein' a pattern yet??? So, after the "Mission Accomplished" fiesko where Bush fakes like he had landed a jet on an aircraft and congratulated all the service for a job well done we entered the post "Mission Accomplished" PR phase of the same-old-tune crapola... 5. Saddam was a bad man!!! Rememeber that one??? Oh, now that was going to get the "opinionated" opponents in line...More tax payer bought PR Bullsh*t... 6. Well, we're bringing "democrarcy" to the Iraqi people... Oh yeah, like how ya gonna do that when you don't care about it here (think the 2000 election theft)... (Oh, but that's just yer opinion, Bobert...) Bullsh*t!!! Read Greg Palast's book and come back and say that... The evidence is overwhelming... (But that's yer opinion, Bobert...) No, not really... Read the friggin' book... So here we are. Looks like those of of with the opinions have proven out to be the ones who were correct???? How do any of you Bush-heads respond to that??? And yet what do we get as the Number One defensive arguement from the neo-con puppets/parrots: We have a difference of opinion... Danged right we do and our side just happens to be skunkin' yer side... No brag, just fact!!! Peace Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: Peace Date: 11 Aug 05 - 09:23 PM The pro-Bush folks are being quieter than usual on this thread. Maybe he's losing his appeal to them. He's getting real hard to brag about isn't he? It seems that initially his victory was the issue. Yeah, Bush WON. (Democrats would have done the same.) BUT, now with Bush seeming to drop in the polls, and the after-election flush of victory paling, it's possible there are a few sober afterthoughts. One would hope so, anyway. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: Peace Date: 11 Aug 05 - 09:27 PM Also, I recall someone who was very pro-Bush saying that the US would be out of Iraq by last February. He seems to be elsewhere. I haven't been awaiting an explanation, but one would be nice to read. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: GUEST Date: 11 Aug 05 - 09:44 PM bobad, the anti-war movement is everywhere, including on college campuses. They have organized large demonstrations in DC, as well as coordinated national and international anti-war events in public, on the interet, and through the alternative media channels you may not be familiar with (like Democracy Now, Air America, NOW, The Daily Show with Jon Stewart, etc). The mainstream media has blocked all access to the political dissenters in this country for years, but the problem has become much worse since 2000, when Bush was selected. As to an impending arrest. Cindy clarified that in a number of interviews today, as the person(s) posting to Daily Kos apparently didn't understand what was going on. According to Cindy, the local sheriff is currently saying no one will be arrested, as long as no one breaks the law. She said it was the Secret Service who was attempting to get them to leave by intimidating them. Hence, the story began to get circulated that she was about to be arrested for national security reasons. What she said to clarify that was she doesn't believe they are in danger of being arrested by the local sheriff at this time, and if they were forcibly removed today, during the night, etc. it would most likely be the Secret Service deciding to intervene. No one knows how local law enforcement and the Secret Service will deal with the situation as it grows. Many people are reported to be pouring int Crawford from all over to join the protest. They are allowed to come join the protest during the day, but only a small number of activists are being allowed to camp there at night. The activists fear that if they all left at night to sleep elsewhere, that they would be blocked from returning again. Ironically, it seems to be the presence of the media that has gone out of it's way to ignore the anti-war movement, the White House press corps, that has kept the protesters safe and in place. After Bush's public dissing of Cindy and the other mothers who have assembled with her today at his fundraising event, it is unclear how much more attention the protestors will be afforded by the White House press. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: Azizi Date: 11 Aug 05 - 09:47 PM Click HERE for a number of editorial cartoons and blogger's comments about President Bush's response [or lack of response] to Cindy Sheehan. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: beardedbruce Date: 11 Aug 05 - 10:00 PM Bobert, Recognize any of these? "There is a real danger when a sigment of society becomes so brainwashed that they cannot tolerate other folks view points and America is rapidly becoming just that... " "Unless you are capable and willing to look beyond *your* side then you are allready in the loser category in my book. I mean no disrespect here but life isn't about winning law suits but being able to find common ground or selling visions." "When we take upon ourselves to be as vindictive as our foes, we have lost..." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: GUEST,G Date: 11 Aug 05 - 10:21 PM Bobert, what is it you need to know? Or is it just that you want some insight on something you obviously don't have a clue about but want to continue to impress some of the weakminded ones with your worthless diatribe. Any particular age range? And, as a minute sidebar, what is a Greg Palast? Another Michael Moore becoming wealthy by utilizing the shallow thinking of others? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: Peace Date: 11 Aug 05 - 10:27 PM It is the job of the Secret Service to protect the President of the United States. How they do that is basically up to them. The President can give them orders. I don't think anyone else can--although I stand to be corrected on that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: beardedbruce Date: 11 Aug 05 - 10:32 PM The Secret Service is under the Treasury Department, and the Secretary of the Treasury. They do perform other duties, beside protecting VIPs. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: beardedbruce Date: 11 Aug 05 - 10:35 PM http://www.secretservice.gov/ MISSION STATEMENT The United States Secret Service is mandated by statute and executive order to carry out two significant missions: protection and criminal investigations. The Secret Service protects the President and Vice President, their families, heads of state, and other designated individuals; investigates threats against these protectees; protects the White House, Vice President's Residence, Foreign Missions, and other buildings within Washington, D.C.; and plans and implements security designs for designated National Special Security Events. The Secret Service also investigates violations of laws relating to counterfeiting of obligations and securities of the United States; financial crimes that include, but are not limited to, access device fraud, financial institution fraud, identity theft, computer fraud; and computer-based attacks on our nation's financial, banking, and telecommunications infrastructure. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: GUEST Date: 11 Aug 05 - 10:35 PM I loved this one from Daily Kos: "The thing about the Right Wing noise machine is that it only has one tactical mode. Full bore attack. Which against a woman who lost her son, is a bit fucked up. Just a bit." Hehehe. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: Peace Date: 11 Aug 05 - 10:36 PM Thank you. I knew they fell under Treasury, bb, and that they had other jobs. But I always thought that their 'most important' job was to take care of the President. So, the Secretary of the Treasury can give them orders, then? (Serious question.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: Bobert Date: 11 Aug 05 - 10:38 PM Yeah, bb, and I'll stick by every one of 'um... All were in response to yer sides relentless PR drumbeat to beat those on this side into submission.... Yes, I would not retract one single word, irregardless of correct spellin' or not... The "brainwashed" statement sho nuff holds true and that is the point I have been making... You brainwashed neo-con radicals had no tolerance during the run up to war... No, it was "either you are with us or you are against us" demonizin' those who were sayin, "Hey, wait a friggin' minute" into terrorists. Hmmmmmmm? Looks like yer side was wrong on that one.... What's next? Yeah, same friggin' obseravtion... Your crowd is so hell-bent on parrotin' anything that you hear from one of yer radical neo-con assh*les, who, BTW, dominate the radio, that yuo and yers refuse to look beyond the latest PR line that you are supposed to regergitate on command like Pavlov's friggin' dog... If you folks had just asked a couple of questions rather than take hook, line, sinker, fisherman, fishermans car and the road he drove to the lakke on you and yers just mighta found that in askin' just a couple easy questions that there was indeed common ground to be found... But no! You and yers struck out a slash and burn position that allowed for nuthin but pure allegence to yer hero... It was you side that wouldn't give an inch... not ours... Okay, what's next... Vindcitive, bb? Hey, it's yer crowd doing all this killin' and torturin'... Fir the life o' me I can't see why you you would pick that one out as an example of just what a bad person I am???? Bottom line, it's yer side that has 100% of the power... So, ahhh, maybe you'd like to explain to peanut gallery how it is that the powerless people are now being vindictive???? Peace Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: beardedbruce Date: 11 Aug 05 - 10:38 PM As far as I know. They do all the investigations of counterfeit currency, and as far as I know are directed by the Sec of Treas. Of course, his boss is the President... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: Amos Date: 11 Aug 05 - 10:39 PM G: Ummmm...shallow thinking? How about the thinking of someone afraid to confront a bereaved mother? Or the thinking of one so immersed in self-satisfaction that they can't even look up who Greg Palast is? Get real, chile. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: Peace Date: 11 Aug 05 - 10:40 PM Thanks, bb. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: beardedbruce Date: 11 Aug 05 - 10:43 PM Bobert, Try looking in a mirror. If you do not see that you are acting as bad or worse than you claim "my" side is, you have more serious problems than I can deal with. I guess you don't really mean that YOU should act in a reasonable manner, according to the words YOU have stated- just the people you want to demonize. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: Bobert Date: 11 Aug 05 - 11:02 PM I don't support killin' and torturin' folks fir political gain, bb... Maybe you need the mirror... After 4 years of folks with a differnt opinion being bullied, harrassed, demonized, it's yer side that need a good hard look in the mirror... Shame on every one of you brownshirt radicals... You folks are no conservatives... You are radicals who have killed folks for political and power gains... You folks have turned the tables on the working class so that most folks workin' today will never be able to retire... You folks have borrowed so much money from Europe and China that it will take generations to pay it back... Just today you folks voted in an "Transporation Bill" that has over 6,000 porl barrell projects that go to whom??? You folks!!! And paid for by whom??? Me and other hard workin' Americans... Yeah, you want to cleverly place the blame on the victims of what you folks have donw but I ain't buyin' it and guess what, bb, the American people are slowly but surely geetin' the real piccure... But you just go ahead and think it is the victims that are the ones with the serious problems because you are half right... We have serious problems in that you folks have somehow stole our governemnt and are killin', torturin' and exploitin folks both here and elsewhere... Ain't 'bout mirrors... 'Bout what God expects of each and every one of us to do in regards to respectin' life and our planet... Yer guys don't seem to know much about that... Sho nuff know how to steal stuff, though... (oh, BObert... That's a dredded.... ahhhhh, opinion!!!!) Yeah, but just like lots of them Ive voiced, I gotta a good fellin' that there's quite a bit of truth within it... Peace Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: GUEST,G Date: 11 Aug 05 - 11:03 PM Amos, I know who Greg Palast is, I have read some of his tripe (my opinion)I am not immersed in self satisfaction - other wise I would not have researched Palast. This Cindy person was quite taken with GWB when he talked to her and kissed her on top of her head. Which any Marine will tell you is the ultimate gesture of kindness. This attack, attack, attack attitude by some is reminescent of the Japanese just before the end of the war. They were known for wildly striking at anything that moved as they must have realized that their position was hopeless. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: GUEST,G Date: 11 Aug 05 - 11:19 PM ..........and the beat goes on - meaning that the weak retreat when directly confronted. Bobert, did you have a particular age group in mind? 20- 24, 25-30, 31-35? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: Bobert Date: 11 Aug 05 - 11:20 PM Difference is that Bush is the Jap here.... Folks are comin' 'round and, better than that, the media is not scared of Big-Fat-Liar-Karl-Rove reprisals anymore... After 4 years of being under consatnt attack by Rove, Bush's PR folk and the brownshirts there's a little freshness to the air... At least today... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: GUEST,G Date: 11 Aug 05 - 11:27 PM Please translate the last post. Oh, that is the first mention of Karl Rove in some time. I wonder what made that subject die? Perhaps a lack of evidence? Or is the media not mentioning him as they are "not scared" anymore. By the way, while not directly implying, you are the "Jap" here with the indiscrimanate attacking. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: Amos Date: 11 Aug 05 - 11:31 PM You are mistaken about Cindy being taken, G. You obviously have chosen to refuse her own statement about her change. She made it clear that that was long before Downing Street and the exposure of the falsification about Iraq. She made it clear that she was still in the throes of loss only nine weeks old. She mader it clear that she has thought things over considerably since then and like anyone who tries to do so, has grown and evolved. So characterizing her as a flip-flopper is shallow and crude in the best Bushite tradition. Great rhetoric completely devoid of human sensibility. And if you knew who Palast is, why so cavalier about refusing to acknowledge that fact in dialogue? Are you still posing, or have you decided to talk straight now? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: GUEST Date: 11 Aug 05 - 11:33 PM Hey, G's just another W apologist guys--why bother giving him the time of day? It isn't like you can have actual conversations with these sorts of people, because the just regurgitate what they heard on Imus this afternoon. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: Bobert Date: 11 Aug 05 - 11:38 PM Based on last post, Amos, still posin'.... Problem is ... no cameras.... As fir BFL Rove, BUsh, as per usual is tryin' to run out the clock and Rove's (haha, Bush's) lawyers are doing what very well paid lawyers (more od my hard earned tax dollars down a Bush rat hole...) do best... Keep the clock runnin.... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: GUEST,G Date: 11 Aug 05 - 11:43 PM Amos, this is turning into crap. Where did I say Ms. Cindy was a flip-flopper? Anyone can change their mind. (or have it changed) Whatever she wants to think is fine with me. I don't have to agree with her, however. And, what makes you think Palast is being truthful? Or, does truth have nothing to do with it? He is a Brit making $ from the heart of this countrys' dissent. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: Amos Date: 11 Aug 05 - 11:44 PM Just under a year ago, Ebbie posted this quote from another "Goldstar Bride": More at http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/090604A.shtml "This is my reply: Mr. President, I know that you probably still "don't do body counts," so you may not know that almost one thousand U.S. troops have died doing what you told them they had to do to protect America. Ryan was Number 832. Liberty was, indeed, precious to the one I lost-- so precious that he would rather have gone to prison than back to Iraq in February. Like you, I don't know where the strength for "such pride" on the part of people "so burdened with sorrow" comes from; maybe I spent it all holding my mother as she wept. "I last saw my loved one at the Kansas City airport, staring after me as I walked away. I could see April 29 written on his sad, sand-chapped and sunburned face. I could see that he desperately wanted to believe that if he died, it would be while "doing good," as you put it. He wanted us to be able to be proud of him. Mr. President, you gave me and my mother a folded flag instead of the beautiful boy who called us "Moms" and "Brookster." But worse than that, you sold my little brother a bill of goods. Not only did you cheat him of a long meaningful life, but you cheated him of a meaningful death. You are in my prayers, Mr. President, because I think that you need them more than anyone on the face of the planet. But you will never get my vote. "So to whom it may concern: Don't vote for Bush. No. Just don't do it. I would not be happy with you." Sincerely, Brooke M. Campbell Atlanta, GA |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: Bobert Date: 11 Aug 05 - 11:46 PM Read the book, G-zer??? Din't think so... How 'bout readin' the book.... And lookin' at actual copies of documents and memos... Read the book.... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: GUEST,G Date: 11 Aug 05 - 11:48 PM Grief does take on different forms. And, Guest, that was such an enlightening post. I am not a big fan of 'W' but I am a big fan of truth without bias. Who is Imus? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: Amos Date: 11 Aug 05 - 11:54 PM G: Sorry, I guess I rushed to judgement there. It sounded like you were faulting her because she feels differently now than she did then. I withdraw my invective. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: GUEST,G Date: 11 Aug 05 - 11:55 PM What book? Do you have any clue as to what you are talking about? What does the word "ramble" mean to you? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: Bobert Date: 11 Aug 05 - 11:58 PM "The Best Democracy Money Can Buy" by Greg Palist... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: GUEST Date: 12 Aug 05 - 12:00 AM "Truth without bias". Oh please. Superficial, meaningless, hot button neo-con word games like the one you are playing here is what makes you a one trick pony. Anyone who says something like that is also cynical beyond redemption, in all likelihood. According to your "truth without bias" standard, the only truth there is in your world is what you've decided is truth, because any one else's truth is "biased" as judged by you. Sorry, but homey don't play your sick judge,jury, and executioner neo-con liberal baiting games. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: GUEST,G Date: 12 Aug 05 - 01:04 PM Guest @ 12 Aug 05 12:00AM Oooh, did I hit a nerve, Bunky? (and if it were intended to be "word games", you bit) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: beardedbruce Date: 12 Aug 05 - 02:02 PM Bobert, As I have stated before, and you and your ilk never addressed, IMHO the reason we are at war is because countries like France and Germany, and the people who protested US taking action even before the UN resolution (but NEVER asked Saddam to comply with his obligations) led Saddam to believe that he could violate the UN resoluttion and the cease-fire accord without punishment. I hold YOU as being partially responsible for any dead in Iraq- ON EITHER SIDE. YOUR attitude is what is the cause of the torture and suffering going on today. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: Amos Date: 12 Aug 05 - 05:00 PM BB: Asserting the wrongness of war causes torture and suffering? I submit that what causes the prosecution of war is the leaders who elect that decision. They are the only ones who have the power to make men pick up arms and bundle into tanks and trunks with intent to kill other men. To blame such a decision on those who insist on a better way is meretricious in the extreme and disingenuous, at best. The following are the latest figures for military deaths in Iraq since the U.S.-led invasion in March 2003, in line with the most recent information from the Pentagon: U.S.-LED COALITION FORCES: |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: beardedbruce Date: 12 Aug 05 - 05:11 PM Amos, I do not dispute those figures. I do contend that, if the UN and the people protesting ANY US action had instead told Saddam that he should have complied with the UNB resolution, WHICH HE DID NOT, there would have been no invasion of Iraq, and no such casualties. "To blame such a decision on those who insist on a better way is meretricious in the extreme and disingenuous, at best." I do not see that telling Saddam he could (continue) to not comply with the UN and Iraq'a obligations under the cease-fire was a better way to get him to comply with the UN resolutions and terms of the cease-fire. To argue otherwise seems a little disingenious, at best. Criminal, at worst. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: Amos Date: 12 Aug 05 - 05:28 PM Neither Bobert or the many who feel as he does were the correct sources to "say" anything to Saddam. In essence, you are advocating the curtailment of free and open communication of opinions of any ideas not held to be poltiically correct. The person who was responsible for putting the pressure on Saddam from the United States was President Bush. He gave up on using the U.N. to do its proper job. He chose how he was going to do it--Butch Cassidy style, yahoo... The notion that protest by citizens against the vilest undertaking known to man -- mass slaughter -- forced him into it in some obscure indirect way is absolutely specious and erroneous. Saddam was a psychotic, dealing with a population that is rich in psychosis, individual and cultural, as well as great promise and hope. Unfortunately, Bush proved himself no better. All he had was a hammer, because he and his colleagues had a severe lack of imagination, a severe lack of human decency, a severe lack of understanding of human affairs, and a severe case of individual and collective greed. So he used his stupid hammer. He's still hammering--or at least, getting others to do so at insane cost. Billions and billions of dollars and man-years of pain and loss and grit and hatred have turned on his single, short-sighted decision to use it. Unfortunately it is turning out that the problem was not a nail. So sad. So stupid. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: GUEST,sorefingers Date: 12 Aug 05 - 06:09 PM Noting my latest post to the RN thread was deleted I add this comment hasitatingly; its thursday and Cindy is definitely not arrested so the title is a bloody lie! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: beardedbruce Date: 12 Aug 05 - 06:45 PM Amos, " In essence, you are advocating the curtailment of free and open communication of opinions of any ideas not held to be poltiically correct." No. But you have not addressed the point that NO-ONE who was telling the US not to take action bothered to suggest that Saddam could avoid the threatened action by complying- ALL the protesters said was that the US should not do anything. THAT is where I see the blame belongs. Had Saddam complied, there would have been no invasion- Thus, to avoid the threatened invasion, why not ask him to comply? Unless the point is that he should not have to comply- in which case the UN should have never even kicked him out of Kuwait. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: Azizi Date: 12 Aug 05 - 06:55 PM GUEST,sorefingers, Had it not been for the blog attention and the media attention from around the world that Cindy Sheehan has received, she very well might have been arrested as she was repeatedly warned she would be. I pray that our government hasn't stooped so low that it would arrest a citizen who is trying to excercise her right of free speech, not to mention a mother who paid the ultimate sacrifice of the death of her child in Bush's war. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: freda underhill Date: 12 Aug 05 - 07:09 PM "had Saddam complied, there would have been no invasion" .. there was always going to be an invasion, bb, and it had nothing to do with Saddam Hussein or human rights. No wonder Cindy Sheehan is so devastated. read on and deny.. Oil has always been top of Bush's foreign-policy agenda October 7 2002; Sydney Morning Herald The White House decided that diplomacy was not an option in the Middle East, writes Ritt Goldstein. As the United States prepares for war with Iraq, a report commissioned early in George Bush's presidency has surfaced, showing that the US knew it was running out of oil and foreshadowing the possible need for military intervention to secure supplies. The report forecasts an end to cheap and plentiful fuel, with the energy industry facing "the beginning of capacity limitations". Prepared by the influential Washington-based Council on Foreign Relations and the James A. Baker III Institute for Public Policy, it urged the Bush Administration to admit "these agonising truths to the American people". Strategic Energy Policy Challenges for the 21st Century, written early last year, was a policy document used to shape the new administration's energy policy. It applauded the creation of Vice-President Dick Cheney's energy task force to address the creation of specific energy plans, and suggested it consider including representation from the Department of Defence. Saying "there is no alternative" and "there is no time to waste", the document projects periods of exploding US energy prices, economic recession and social unrest unless answers are found. It suggests that a minimum three to five years is needed to find a solution, and says a "reassessment of the role of energy in American foreign policy" is called for, with access to oil repeatedly cited as a "security imperative". The involvement of the Council of Foreign Relations in the report's preparation adds weight to its findings. The council ranks as one of the most influential groups in US political circles, with members including Mr Cheney and the former secretaries of state Henry Kissinger and James Baker. The report also explodes the myth that the US is insulated from Middle East oil supply problems because it receives the bulk of its oil from less volatile sources outside the Persian Gulf. It says Middle East pricing and supply trends "will affect energy costs around the globe regardless". It details an alternative basis for the US "war on terrorism", as well as the apparent basis for much of the Bush Administration's present foreign policy, its so-called oil agenda. The Administration has been actively pursuing oil issues with Venezuela, Colombia, West Africa, the Caspian and Indonesia. And amid the pressure of UN resolutions and Israeli-Palestinian tension, the Secretary of State, Colin Powell, recently visited West Africa. Among the "immediate steps" it urged was an inquiry into whether US policy could be changed to speed the availability of oil from the Caspian Basin region, supporting longstanding accusations that energy issues shadowed the US agenda in Afghanistan. The French authors Jean-Charles Brisard and Guillaume Dasquie have argued that US oil interests had persuaded the Bush Administration to block terrorism investigations and negotiate with the Taliban, a report by the Inter Press Service (IPS) last November said. It has been said repeatedly that the US objective is the construction of trans-Afghan pipelines allowing access to Caspian oil and gas. According to the authors and an article in Le Monde Diplomatique in January, US attempts to bribe and threaten the Taliban had preceded the September 11 attacks. Notably, the IPS article quoted the French authors as saying that, faced with the Taliban's refusal to co-operate, the rationale of energy security changed into a military one, reflecting what the report advocated as a valid option. Providing a footnote to the question of US military threats, the General Accounting Office, the investigative arm of the US Congress, has sued Mr Cheney to obtain details of his energy task force meetings. Environmental groups have speculated that the suit is being fought to hide the level of involvement the collapsed US energy giant Enron had in the task force. On the looming oil crisis, the report reluctantly blames deregulation of the energy markets, a lack of a comprehensive US energy policy and the avoidance of oil conservation measures. It also suggests diplomatic alternatives - but policy since the September 11 attacks appears in keeping only with the military intervention option. Ideas such as defusing the Arab-Israeli conflict, an easing of Iraqi sanctions and "reducing the restrictions on oil investments inside Iraq" are at odds with the policies the Administration is pursuing. While the US now presses for "regime change" in Iraq, more than 18 months ago the report repeatedly emphasised its importance as an oil producer and the need to expand Iraqi production as soon as possible to meet projected oil shortages - shortages it said could be avoided only through increased production or conservation in the near-term. In essence, the report sees the nature of Persian Gulf politics as a significant threat and obstacle to increased energy supplies. Implicit in the substantive concerns - that "Gulf allies are finding their domestic and foreign policy interests increasingly at odds with US strategic considerations", and that "evidence suggests that investment is not being made in a timely enough manner" to meet global needs - is the seed of what has now become an almost openly adversarial position. During the northern summer, news reports began to paint Saudi Arabia as a possible adversary to the US. Rhetoric regarding Iraq has also been steadily ratcheted up, creating what amounts to an allegation du jour scenario. US military circles have watched as Iraq became "the tactical pivot", Saudi Arabia "the strategic pivot", and an agenda of "not just a new regime in Iraq" but a "new Middle East" has been increasingly discussed. ----- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: Amos Date: 12 Aug 05 - 07:17 PM NO-ONE who was telling the US not to take action bothered to suggest that Saddam could avoid the threatened action by complying- ALL the protesters said was that the US should not do anything. THAT is where I see the blame belongs. Had Saddam complied, there would have been no invasion- Bruce: He was asked over and over. If he isn't going to listen to the United States or the United Nations, it seems really silly to say that those who were against the war should have sent him a damn letter or something. I also point out that, IIRC, he was allowing the inspectors back in when Bush took his decision to go to war. Bush's entire management of the relationship with Iraq has been one goddamn cockup after another. He blew the diplomacy, he blew the community-management, he blew the military planning, he blew the post-overthrow civic management, he falsified his results, he underestimated the problem, he underestimated the forces he would need, he underestimated armory, he mismanaged delegation and he completely and villanously mismanaged the American public by feeding them bullshit. He's been a cockup from the beginning and deserves to be impeached for falsification far more serious and loss of American resources FAR more serious than any President in memory. If he stood up and started lying about a blow job at this point, I would think he was coming up in awareness. He's a liar and worse, he is also a goddamn incompetent fool, riddled with delusion and pretense. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: Ebbie Date: 12 Aug 05 - 07:19 PM bb, I fail to understand how it is that you - and others - on the one hand cite Saddam's non-compliance with the UN dictum and on the other hand scoff at the UN. Question: Was the UN resolution a valid one? If it was, was the fact that it/they were in no hurry to go to war over the noncompliance also valid? Conversely, if the UN refusal to go to war was NOT a valid response, then was the UN determination of noncompliance a valid opinion? If the UN's refusal to go to war over Saddam's noncompliance was valid then why did the US go to war unilaterally? Is the US not a member of the UN body? What happened to rule of law? By the way, I don't want to hear about the oil for food scandal that the UN is alleged to have been involved in UNTIL we/you are equally incensed and curious as to what happened to the billions of dollars that have not been accounted for that were given by Americans to American corporations in Iraq. Aren't you up in arms about that? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: akenaton Date: 12 Aug 05 - 07:36 PM Jesus...You're not still arguing THAT point BB. The Saddam regime was complying, thats why Bush and Blair were so keen to get the weapons inspectors out. Blix said he only needed another couple of months!! The fact is, as you well know, the decision for war had been taken long before. How long are you conservatives going to try to defend the indefensible. The whole world knows the truth...Ake |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: Bobert Date: 12 Aug 05 - 07:54 PM Well, well, well... bb's imagination never ceases to amaze me... Now to the litany of accusations he has placed against me I am now responsible for the Iraqi War and the torture????? Hmmmmmm????? Must be some fine drugs that boy is on.... As per usual, as I have done in the past when bb goes a tad too far out of the reality circle in accusin' me of this or that high crime or misdomeanor for which only he sees thru his special glasses, it's time to ignore him... No arguin' with the irrational, the pathological or those on serious drugs... Bye, bb... Now to my other Catters: I'm not too sure about the validity to this but maybe someone a little more pudder savy than myself (think Amos here...) could do a little follow up research but there is a British magazine, the Lancet, that paid to have some Johns Hpokins folks study the number of deaths of Iraqi civilians during the first 18 months of the war and that number came in at over 100,000, most of which were women and children!!!! (Try the Novemeber, 2004, issue, Amos...) I have heard that number over and over on Pacifica and it now seems that General Tommy Frank was right whaen he said he wasn't into body counts.... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: Amos Date: 12 Aug 05 - 08:25 PM 100,000 Iraqi civilians dead, says study Sarah Boseley, health editor Friday October 29, 2004 The Guardian About 100,000 Iraqi civilians - half of them women and children - have died in Iraq since the invasion, mostly as a result of airstrikes by coalition forces, according to the first reliable study of the death toll from Iraqi and US public health experts. The study, which was carried out in 33 randomly-chosen neighbourhoods of Iraq representative of the entire population, shows that violence is now the leading cause of death in Iraq. Before the invasion, most people died of heart attacks, stroke and chronic illness. The risk of a violent death is now 58 times higher than it was before the invasion. Last night the Lancet medical journal fast-tracked the survey to publication on its website after rapid, but extensive peer review and editing because, said Lancet editor Richard Horton, "of its importance to the evolving security situation in Iraq". But the findings raised important questions also for the governments of the United Sates and Britain who, said Dr Horton in a commentary, "must have considered the likely effects of their actions for civilians". The research was led by Les Roberts of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health in Baltimore. Five of the six Iraqi interviewers who went to the 988 households in the survey were doctors and all those involved in the research on the ground, says the paper, risked their lives to collect the data. Householders were asked about births and deaths in the 14.6 months before the March 2003 invasion, and births and deaths in the 17.8 months afterwards. Source: The Lancet 2004; 364:1857-1864 DOI:10.1016/S0140-6736(04)17441-2 Mortality before and after the 2003 invasion of Iraq: cluster sample survey Les Roberts a , Riyadh Lafta b, Richard Garfield c, Jamal Khudhairi b and Gilbert Burnham a Radical neocons have invalidated the Lancet report enthusiastically and bitterly. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: Amos Date: 12 Aug 05 - 08:30 PM Note tyhat the Economist refutes the detractors and defends the conclusions of the Lancet's study. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: beardedbruce Date: 12 Aug 05 - 09:18 PM bobert, "No arguin' with the irrational, the pathological or those on serious drugs" I agree, so I will not try to have any discussion about anything with you that involves facts or seeing the people who disagree with you as other than evil. "Unless you are capable and willing to look beyond *your* side then you are allready in the loser category in my book." By your own definition, YOU are a loser. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: Bobert Date: 12 Aug 05 - 09:29 PM Not! You are, bb... Last words... B- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: Ebbie Date: 12 Aug 05 - 09:30 PM bb, can you answer my questions? I'd like to hear your reasoning. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: beardedbruce Date: 12 Aug 05 - 09:47 PM Ebbie, "bb, I fail to understand how it is that you - and others - on the one hand cite Saddam's non-compliance with the UN dictum and on the other hand scoff at the UN. " "Question: Was the UN resolution a valid one? " YES, and Saddam DID NOT comply- The UN stated that he was in substantual non-compliance. "If it was, was the fact that it/they were in no hurry to go to war over the noncompliance also valid?" The wording of the resolution was that it was the LAST CHANCE for Saddam to comply with his obligations under the resolutions OF THE PRECEDING 14 years, and of the CEASE_FIRE TERMS. When a cease-fire is determined to be no longer valid, the ORIGINAL CONFLICT, authorized by the UN, is restored to an active state. "Conversely, if the UN refusal to go to war was NOT a valid response," and it was not, since a state of war ALREADY existed upon Saddam's non-compliance with the cease-fire terms. "If the UN's refusal to go to war over Saddam's noncompliance was valid then why did the US go to war unilaterally? Is the US not a member of the UN body? What happened to rule of law?" Under UN rules, the resolution authoizing military action was put in abeyance by the cease-fire- UPON VIOLATION, the original resolution takes effect again. Same as in North Korea. ( no peace treaty ever signed) "By the way, I don't want to hear about the oil for food scandal that the UN is alleged to have been involved in UNTIL we/you are equally incensed and curious as to what happened to the billions of dollars that have not been accounted for that were given by Americans to American corporations in Iraq. Aren't you up in arms about that? " I did not bring that up at this time. IF there are unaccounted-for funds, they should be investigated, and if violations of law are found, the responsible parties should be prosecuted- IN ALL CASES. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: Bobert Date: 12 Aug 05 - 11:14 PM My greatest sympathies to you, Ebbie.... Don't expect any meaningfull and intellegent dialogue in dealin' with the resident "true believer"... He'll say anything he is told to say... You are not up aginst a person but a multi-million dollar PR machine that is funded by yer tax dollars to promote the neo-con agenda and the resident "true believer" will spout out their crap like the resident "true believer" actually believes this crap??? Like go figure??? Oh, BTW, when the resident "true believer" gets cornered and does not have some catchy PR response, the "true beliebver" will resort to name callin' and false accusations so, beware, for this "true believer" is a poster boy of "true believerism"... Like ya ever notice how the "true believers" will one one hand asy that Saddam wasn't obeying UN resolutions when ity fits their cause then in the next breath tell you how the UN is worthless??? LIke what's that about... Must be nice to be a "true believer"... You can say whatevr you want... Just like Bush does??? Doesn't matter wghat you say or even if there is any actual fact behind it as long as it sounds "bold and bulky"... BObert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: CarolC Date: 12 Aug 05 - 11:42 PM beardedbruce, would you please provide us with the exact wording of the "cease fire terms" to which you refer, and also a link to a source for those cease fire terms? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: Azizi Date: 13 Aug 05 - 01:46 PM August 12th, 2005 Fifty pro-Bush supporters came to Crawford Texas to protest across the road from Cindy Sheehan, and her supporters. At one point, with no provocation, the pro-Bush protestors started chanting "We don't care." See HERE They don't care???!!! What a message that sends to grieving families. **** Also see this post written by a supporter of Cindy Sheehan: An Oldie, but a Saturday Morning 'Chuckle' Heaven A man died. As he stood in front of St. Peter at the Pearly Gates, he saw a huge wall of clocks behind him. He asked, "What are all those clocks?" St. Peter answered, "Those are Lie Clocks. Everyone on Earth has a Lie Clock. Every time you lie, the hands on your clock will move." "Oh," said the man, "Whose clock is that?" "That's Mother Teresa's. The hands have never moved. She never told a lie." "Incredible!" said the man. "And whose clock is that one?" St. Peter responded, "That's Abraham Lincoln's clock. The hands have moved twenty times. Abe told only twenty lies in his entire life." "Where's George Bush's clock?" asked the man. "George's clock is in Jesus' office. He's using it as a ceiling fan." by jimstaro on Sat Aug 13th, 2005 Source: Daily Kos: We don't have to be angry anymore |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan to be arrested tomorrow From: katlaughing Date: 13 Aug 05 - 03:18 PM Azizi, thanks so much for keeping the links going. Like Cindy, and because of Cindy, I feel so much HOPE, now, that he WILL have to asnwer to us. I hope the impeach Bush movement is successful. To the "We don't care"...wish I was there to tell them: Your Flag Decal Won't Get You Into Heaven Anymore c John Prine While digesting Reader's Digest In the back of a dirty book store, A plastic flag, with gum on the back, Fell out on the floor. Well, I picked it up and I ran outside Slapped on my window shield, And if I could see old Betsy Ross I tell her how good I feel. Chorus: But your flag decal won't get you Into Heaven any more. They're already overcrowded From your dirty little war. Now Jesus don't like killin' No matter what the reason's for, And your flag decal won't get you Into Heaven any more. Well, I went to the bank this morning And the cashier he said to me, "If you join the Christmas club We'll give you ten of them flags for free." Well, I didn't mess around a bit I took him up on what he said. And I stuck them stickers all over my car And one on my wife's forehead. Repeat Chorus: Well, I got my window shield so filled With flags I couldn't see. So, I ran the car upside a curb And right into a tree. By the time they got a doctor down I was already dead. And I'll never understand why the man Standing in the Pearly Gates said... But your flag decal won't get you Into Heaven any more. We're already overcrowded From your dirty little war. Now Jesus don't like killin' No matter what the reason's for, And your flag decal won't get you Into Heaven any more. |
