button and piano accordeon same player

Subject: button and piano accordeon same player
From: GUEST,Chuck the Monk
Date: 26 Feb 06 - 02:19 PM

I am presently playing an old Bayan, a russian chromatic button accordeon (5 rows Bass).

If I should buy a Paino-accordion, would I then have:

- Any help from what I have learned playing the button accordion

- Any extra trouble because of that

The Bayan is in itself quite a wonderful instrument but it is very old and has russian buttons and tha Bass is very loud and tends to drench the melody. I'll not give it up as long as it works but there is quite a lot of music for which it is non really suitable.

Subject: RE: button and piano accordeon same player
From: Skipjack K8
Date: 26 Feb 06 - 04:29 PM

You will find more of the soul of the Bayan in the piano accordion, however hard the transition may or may not be. Clever melodeon players seem to be able to make the switch to a stradella bass system (same as piano accordion) whilst retaining the push-pull diatonic system on the treble end.

Good luck with whatever you choose, and Amen to having chosen the finest family of instruments, Brother!

Subject: RE: button and piano accordeon same player
From: Bernard
Date: 26 Feb 06 - 07:30 PM

Good luck!

I play piano accordion, melodeon, English concertina and Anglo concertine... and various stringed things as well...! I'm most comfortable with the accordion in that I can 'busk' anything on it - the others usually need a little work.

Now then - this business about the bass end being too loud. Forgive me for saying this, but it's usually down to technique... many players, melodeon and accordion alike, tend to hold down the basses too long - they need to be somewhat 'staccato' - treat the keys as if they are hot to the touch. So many people use the basses as if they are grips to help the bellows in and out... I've played people's instruments when they claim the basses are too loud, and they are surprised when they aren't that way for me...

Not bragging here, you understand, just offering a possible answer to one of your problems. If I'm not making myself terribly clear, I can try explaining it better when I'm not so tired...!!

Subject: RE: button and piano accordeon same player
From: GUEST,Chuck the Monk
Date: 27 Feb 06 - 03:51 AM

Dear Bernhard Umpa Umpa is all right

But i like to play with basses as Drone.

Even that is possible and I like it personally.

There tha basses are too loud

Subject: RE: button and piano accordeon same player
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 27 Feb 06 - 05:48 AM

The Piano Accordion is not too loud, bad players just make it seem so.

Subject: RE: button and piano accordeon same player
From: GUEST,Chuck the Monk
Date: 27 Feb 06 - 12:36 PM

Of course I am a bad player when I can not get the melodies
clear of the bass.

Still when I have tried other instruments it does in fact
work like it should.

So I expect that it is not *all* my badness but also at least partly the instrument. Perhaps wholly. I can play melody and one bass-button (preferably accord) but not melody + 2 bassbuttons.

But the real question is that if I should happen find a Piano-accordeon then I'd like to know if all I have learned is of no use for me, or if I fairly easily can get to the present standard of playing with the potential new instrument.

Two Button-accordeons I expext to be too confusing for a substandard player like me.

Anyways the discussion has given some useful answers so....

Subject: RE: button and piano accordeon same player
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 27 Feb 06 - 06:12 PM

The problem is 'balance'.

When designing an accordion to manufacture, decisions have to be made about the 'balancing' of the instrument. It is like a pipe organ in that respect. If the player 'pulls out all the stops' the instrument needs to be balanced so that neither melody nor bass is drowned by the other. With a simple instrument with no stops or registers, that is relatively easy. The more reed banks on either side that can be brought in or left out at the players whim, the more difficult the design of the balance needs becomes.

It also depends on whether the 'piano accordion' is a 'Stradella Bass' or a 'Free Bass' as the two types are played quite differently. If is is a combination of the two, that makes even more design demands.

It also depends on whether some reed sets are chambered (Cassotto) or not as this also affects the balance when the chamber is opened or closed.

Now the more complex instrument is designed to NOT always be 'in balance' between the two sides with all combinations. This is for several reasons: the player may play either side individually, but more usually just the keyboard side; the player may wish to have one side dominate over the other - sometimes it is desirable to have the 'bass side' sound louder than the 'melody side', and vice versa.

Playing technique also affects 'balance'. Just droning away with both sides is for beginners. One can 'vamp' or play staccato either side while playing legato on the other side. This 'softens' the vamped side, as the reeds do not speak long enough to build up the volume to their maximum output.

I could rant on like this for ages... but look at the thread Technique: Piano Accordion for The Recycled Muso, where I already have... :-)

Robin

Subject: RE: button and piano accordeon same player
From: GUEST,Chuck the Monk
Date: 28 Feb 06 - 05:54 AM

The instrument is a plain students wersion without any possibility to change the reedsets either in Bass(Stradella) or Discant

The balance is thus what it is.

For that reason I am thinking of an instrument a bit more flexible.

I *like* to play tunes like The misty Mourne Shore with drone in the Bass changing the accords in between. If that is *bad* I am certainly sorry but thats how I like it. The pieces can be played with umpa umpa also quitely and thats also quite right.

To change from one fingering of a button accordeon to another playing both instruments is too difficult in my opinion. But a Pianoaccordeon is rather far from a chromatic button accordean so thats why I asked.

Paganini could certainly play almost anything a 100 dollar fiddle if he wanted.

If you start playing a new instrument(as I have) it has to have a certain amount of playability which is defined by what you wish to play. Not necessary a Stradivarius if we talk about violins but still a to a certain degree flexible instrument.

Subject: RE: button and piano accordeon same player
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Feb 06 - 07:11 AM

"I'd like to know if all I have learned is of no use for me."

You did learn MUSIC (pitch, rhythm, staff notation, etc), didn't you? :-) That theoretically should be of use to you....

There is no real mental problem playing more than one type of instrument with different mechanical technical capabilities. I play about a dozen, except guitar and harmonica.

"if I fairly easily can get to the present standard of playing with the potential new instrument"

How many years did it take you to get to your 'present standard'?

You don't have to relearn the MUSIC, just the technicalities of handling a similar instrument with different mechanical bits. That SHOULD take a bit less time, but...

There's just 3 important words.

Practice, practice, practice.

Subject: RE: button and piano accordion same player
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Feb 06 - 09:16 PM

"drone in the Bass changing the chords in between"

That is a legitimate style (and I use it for some pieces) - and quite different to the 'ommpa'-only style which is the only style some players use - the more playing styles you have, the more varied your sound.


Two row button accordions just give you another key scale - three give you 3 scales/keys - the trick is that you then add the missing notes in one scale/key from one of the others to get more chromacity.

But if you have the 'button bass' (with different notes for each bellows direction), and not the full Stradella bass (which has the same note in both directions), you still have some technical limitations.

Button boxes have one note for each direction of the bellows - piano accordions have just the one note for both directions.

Subject: RE: button and piano accordeon same player
From: GUEST,Chuck the Monk
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 01:59 AM

To Foolestroupe:

I have read the Recycled stuff. Fine. Very glad to have had read it.

Parts of your answers have been very helpful. You might incorporate som in your halfgrown book even!

To the other:

Thanks for the comments.

As yet I'll stay with me Bayan and try to get the best I can out of it. Within its limit it is no bad instrument. If something better comes in sight I'll jump to it if it is inside my moneyresources.

Happy playing to all of you!

Subject: RE: button and piano accordeon same player
From: treewind
Date: 20 Nov 11 - 07:44 AM

I can't imagine why anyone who can play a 5 row chromatic button accordion would gain anything by switching to piano accordion. I've always thought of the piano accordion as a compromise for people who take up the accordion after having previously learnt to play the piano.

Subject: RE: button and piano accordeon same player
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 20 Nov 11 - 10:00 AM

I don't play either, but I note from Wikipedia that the bayan's bass has a much fuller sound than western accordions, so possibly what you're finding is characteristic of the instrument.

It also says that the bass layout is slightly different from a Stradella bass.

I rather agree with Treewind, the piano keyboard is a compromise to allow piano players to play accordion. If your problem is with the instrument itself, why not get a new bayan?

Subject: RE: button and piano accordeon same player
From: GUEST,Dean
Date: 29 May 12 - 09:09 AM

Instead of pompously saying 'It's down to bad technique' or ' There is no need for the drone sound' why not just simply offer some advice from your wealth of 'expertise'? The drone accompanying melody is perfectly legitimate especially when accompanying theatre scores.. I have found the most effective way of balancing the volume when droning to be just ever so slightly taking the pressure off of the bass button.. takes a little while to get used to and to find a balance but it works :) Hope this helps!

Subject: RE: button and piano accordeon same player
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 May 12 - 09:47 AM

I've always thought of the piano accordion as a compromise for people who take up the accordion after having previously learnt to play the piano.
tell that to Phil Cunningham.Phil played accordion and violin from a very young age.

Subject: RE: button and piano accordeon same player
From: treewind
Date: 29 May 12 - 12:26 PM

I don't doubt that some accordionists started on piano accordion and didn't play piano first, but I expect them to be in a minority. It's also quite likely that Phil Cunningham started on piano accordion instead of button accordion mainly because there would have been far more choice of instruments and teachers available for that instrument.

I was talking about why the piano accordion was designed that way in the first place, and why it's so popular. The button accordion layout is actually far more logical, and if you already know how to play it, the piano keyboard offers little if any improvement.

One advantage of the button keyboard layout is that it packs more octaves of notes into a limited available keyboard length: the piano keyboard is fine on a piano because the keyboard can be made much longer.

Subject: RE: button and piano accordeon same player
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 May 12 - 01:26 PM

The button accordion layout is actually far more logical, and if you already know how to play it, the piano keyboard offers little if any improvement.
that depends upon which button accordion layout you are cogitating about.
The DG is logical.