BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 08:01 PM

Lox, your last post made alot of sense.
I fear that the route it is taking will eventually lead to a great conflict some day....that could end in the death of all the peoples who now reside there, and possibly nearby....and a scorched landscape.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 07:24 PM

My own take is that if they could somehow remove the religious influence from government then the will of the majority would prevail but I don't know how that can be done in a democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 07:07 PM

Carol, I don't agree that we are witnessing the beginning of the end for the current Israeli administration.

Though Bobads stats would tend to support a view that most Arabs and jews in Israel are sick of the current status quo.

I think the current US and Israeli administrations will do their best to absorb recent events, cover them up and repackage them with the result that the current status quo will continue to drag out for an indefinite period.

I also think that the best chance for all the people of Israel and Palestine is for a continued and sustained continuation of the recent surge in large scale, coordinated, non violent action.

It is likely in the end not just to attract support from international quarters, but also to draw support away from the more extreme elements of Israeli and Palestinian politics.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 06:47 PM

Carolc<
Sometimes folks prefer if those with views do the popcorn/armchair thing in dicussions...I either participate in a meaningful way, or I contribute elsewhere....where it amtters more to all, But, I am still here.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 06:16 PM

Robomatic,

Actually, Emmas article about cohen seems to support Carols view of him pretty well.

In addition, whether you trust them or not, it is true that Hamas have made the offer, twice in as many years, that Carol says they have made.

Just because you say she is making it up, doesn't make it so.

Her observations are drawn from evidence, not concocted out of feelings of loyalty.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 06:14 PM

Ed T, pull up a chair, get yourself some popcorn, and watch what happens...

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 06:12 PM

There you go again, Robomatic, pretending that the proof of the falsity of your own statements has not already been posted several times right here in this thread. You seem to think that you can use the Jedi mind trick and just tell us something that is false and your having told us will be enough to convince us even despite all of the hard evidence to the contrary.

Par for your course, robomatic.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 06:12 PM

CarolC

Unfortunately, I do not trust any government from any country, west east, or elsewhere that is elected to represent the interests of its citizens...let alone to represent fairness anmd good towards humanity, let alone the interests of the majority in a country. It matters little how many times governments change, it really does not change much. So, considering history, should one really be surprised when governments do not represent your (and my) interests and spend tax dollars as they see fit...regardless of the country?

Do I have hope that the Palistine-Israel issues will ever be resolved? No...especially if the two peoples cannot trust each other and rely on the politics of others to resolve issues that only they can resolve. Peace and harmony comes down to trust, which is lacking between the two groups. When you can put asise a bias, and look at the case of either side...either can be seen as making sonme sense....but, that alone, without trust, does not advance any solution.

It is nieve to believe that involving others, (countries, religeous groups, military groups, etc) with a variety of interests (not all to benefit either peoples), to come up with a solution of how these folks can live in harmony together. Regardless of what they seem, there are many with other agendas....some of those do not put the suffering of regular folks high on the list...unfortunately, sometimes the suffering can be seen as beneficial, to promote a longer term cause.

You say that "all of Israel's neighbors, including Hamas, have said they are willing to accept Israel's existence within the pre '67 borders".

Maybe so, but of the two that actually matter, Hamas presents the current stumbling block, not Fatah. To be really trusted by Israel, a first step is for Hamas to change its charter (especially article 22), which is the real test to recognizing Israel's right to exist. To me, that is the real stumbling block to trust and peace.

I am sure you and your like thinking who dominate comments on this thread will disagree with this,(and most anything that does not support your fixed positions) and quite agressively so. But, you can by mere numbers and agression, force folks away from commenting and sharing perspectives (when they differ with yours, collectively) in this thread, and, then you can have it to yourselves.   But, that, and, a one sided Mudcat discussion, does little to change or get anyone closer to reolving the issues (real, perceived or denied, as such), nor advance peace and humanity in the region for all.But, you may feel in some odd way that you won some type of a battle...if so, I wish you good with that.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 06:09 PM

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/06/03/reporter-disputes-israeli-account-of-raid/?scp=1&sq=Lede

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 06:07 PM

Thank you Bobad.

That information supports my view exactly.

That the current Israeli administration rides roughshod, not only over residents of Gaza, but also ignores the views of many Israelis, including the views of many Israeli Jews.

It is also my view that the Israeli administration lies to Isrealis and non Israelis alike to justify its actions.


Your post confirms my view exactly that this issue is not about blaming ordinary Israelis, Israeli Jews or non Israeli Jews, it is about the outrageous calumny and brutality inflicted by the IDF on behalf of the Israeli administration.


This is a view shared by all those on this thread who have condemned IDF piracy in the meditteranean on 31st may, with the exception of one who has explicitly admitted anti-semitic feelings.

With the exception of that poster, there is no evidence of anti semitism in the posts of any other poster, there remain only inferences, insinuations and accusations.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: robomatic
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 05:36 PM

There you go again. Pretty much nothing in that last scribe of your is true. You mis-state the position of Hamas and you ascribe motivations to those you do not know purely as an ad-hominem attack "I disagree with them therefore they are racists, therefore what they say is wrong, therefore I don't need to spend a lot of time on logic, analysis, and reasoned argument."

Par for your course, CarolC.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 05:33 PM

Some findings from a 2008 study on coexistence in Israel from the John F. Kennedy School of Government of Harvard University

•    A great majority of both Jewish citizens (73%) and Arab citizens (94%) want Israel to be a society in which Arab and Jewish citizens have mutual respect and equal opportunities.
•    68% of Jewish citizens support teaching conversational Arabic in Jewish schools to help bring Arab and Jewish citizens together.
•    77% of Arab citizens would rather live in Israel than in any other country in the world.
•    More than two-thirds of Jewish citizens (69%) believe contributing to coexistence is a personal responsibility; a majority (58%) of Jewish citizens also support cabinet level action.
•    Arab citizens and Jewish citizens both underestimate their communities' liking of the "other."
•    Urgent action on coexistence in Israel is desired: 66% of Jewish citizens and 84% of Arab citizens believe the Israeli government investments should begin now, and not wait until the end of the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians.

http://content.ksg.harvard.edu/leadership/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=511&Itemid=115

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 05:10 PM

Mr. Cohen also conveniently ignores the fact that all of Israel's neighbors, including Hamas, have said they are willing to accept Israel's existence within the pre '67 borders. But this characterization of his that all of Israel's neighbors want to kill Jews is a libel, and it arises from his own racism and hatred of Arabs and Muslims, and it has no basis whatever in truth.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 04:56 PM

Not only that, but we (those of us in my country, at least), are being forced to support what Israel does with our tax dollars, which makes us complicit. And on top of that, we have to fight against people, like the guy who wrote that opinion piece, who are actually supporting Israel's racism and human rights abuses. There is no other country besides the US that is guilty of as much racism and as many human rights abuses as Israel, that gets so much support in countries like the US and other countries in the West.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 04:50 PM

I have to confess that I find the 'opinion' piece by Nick Cohen both disturbing and disturbed

The best I can say about it is that I go along entirely with the assessment and criticism of his extreme recent anti-Islamic rhetoric by Mehdi Hasan writing in the New Statesman


"Nick Cohen, formerly of this parish, has devoted his latest Observer column to the Israel-Palestine conflict, and the siege of Gaza. I can't help but respond to some of his weird and wonderful claims.

He has (since) become monomaniacally obsessed with Islamism, Islam and Muslims, and an ardent defender of the United States, the UK and Israel. He has described the British army as the "armed wing of Amnesty International" while castigating Amnesty itself for being an "evil corporation".


Perhaps Cohen should read the Israeli press before he sounds off about anti-Semitism and the Jewish state. Here are four headlines from Haaretz last week:
Ari Shavit's "Fiasco on the high seas"
Reuven Pedatzur's "A failure any way you slice it"
Yossi Sarid's "Seven idiots in the cabinet"
Gideon Levy's "Operation Mini Cast Lead"

Does Cohen expect us to believe the staff of Haaretz are Jew-haters? And is Nelson Mandela, who described Palestine as "the greatest moral issue of the age", a lazy anti-Semitic liberal as well? "

Nick Cohen's Nazi confusion

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 04:39 PM

EdT,

Your columnist states - "The point to make against them is not that there are worse countries than Israel, which receive nothing like the same level of opprobrium – even though there are and they most certainly do not – but that Israel's critics ignore the uses of racism and forget the lessons of the 20th century."

This is true sometimes.

It is also true that Israel uses racism and seems to have ignored the big lessons of the 20th cetury too.


However, there is another important reason why many people from the centre right to the left wing in the west are very vocal about Israels actions in Gaza.

It is this: Israel is meant to be on our side.

Israel is meant to be our ally.

We in the UK and in the USA who have a problem with the way our governments treat Arabs, also have a problem with the way our friends treat Arabs.

I, as a UK citizen, am appalled that my government and its friends seem to have so littlwe regard for human life.

My team misrepresents me about as far as it is humanly possible to do so.

My team - the allies - team UK, USA, Israel ...

We, the last bastion of human rights and democracy - we judge feudal archaic and undemocratic countries the world over who aren't on our team, like China, Burma, North Korea etc etc.

We say to them "No" the way you treat your people and the territories you occupy is wrong and you must stop.

Only we can't say that.

If we say that then we are hypocrites.

Because our governments kill more people in foreign countries and inflict more human rights abuses than any of 'the other team' do.

We in the UK expect much better from our government than this.

We expect much better from our ally the USA.

And we expect much better from our ally Israel.


Team UK, USA, Israel, claims to represent me around the world.

What's more, it spends my taxes doing so - even Israel.


Well I would like to be clear that I do not support the actions of my team around the world.

I think my team is corrupt, dishonest, murderous, racist and lacking a conscience.


In response to my well founded criticism, my team opens old sensitive wounds and tells lies.


I despise my team and I hope it gets replaced.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 04:14 PM

No worries Bobad.

Your inability to support your slander and you're inabilty to step up and be specific is recorded clearly.

Equally your inability to refute or come clean is recorded clearly.

False accusationsn no evidence and something to hide.

If you're happy with that then so be it.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 04:12 PM

Anyone giving a course on "How to silence someone with whom you disagree"?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 04:08 PM

OK,here is a Guardian article that some folks wont like:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/jun/06/israel-gaza-blockade

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 03:59 PM

OK Lox, it's been fun but you are becoming a little too obsessed for me so I'll just say TTFY, have fun playing with yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 03:58 PM

And, there is Helen Thomas.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/andy-ostroy/helen-thomass-sad-new-leg_b_604332.html

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: robomatic
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 03:58 PM

Penny S:

If the research you are talking about is true (and I'm not saying it is) it would support my argument that a good deal of the problems of the Mideast are due to the Jewish Israelis not being accepted as 'Palestinians' in their own right. Consider that Israel has a considerable Arab population and is multi-ethnic, multi-believer. The great majority of its neighbors not only are the opposite of this, they can't IMAGINE what it would be like to allow minority rights.

This is a miasma of intolerance in which the only oasis of democracy, tolerance, and freedom is constantly being set up as a fall guy in order to eliminate it.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Penny S.
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 03:34 PM

Somewhere back up this thread, someone wrote about the genetic connection between Jews, Kurds and Armenians. That would be the Cohen Y chromosome, I seem to recall. I also seemed to recall something about the Journal of Immunology having to rip a paper out of issues on a related subject, so I went and looked it up.

The article, which showed that there were very close similarities between Palestinians and Jews, has had some argument about it, which anyone can check up on by googling "Jews Palestinians immunology paper", and so I'm not going to refer to it. It was included by a guest editor who happened to be the lead author.

Instead, that among the discussion of this withdrawn paper, reference was made to another, produced in Israel by Israeli scientists, on genetic connections between populations. The conclusion was that all Jewish groups, Sephardim, Ashkenazim, and even the Ethiopian Jews show genetic connectedness. But, buried in the work was the finding that Sephardic Jews and Palestinians show a greater genetic likeness than between either group and Ashkenazi Jews.

Which places both groups with the same ancestry, and the same link to the place of origin. (I have seen it said that the Palestinian Christians are probably the descendants of Jews who lived there in Jesus' time, and who never left after 76 AD, but who knows.)

It doesn't help either side if arguments are based on fantasy.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 02:48 PM

"Show me where I said that those who disagree with me believe that Jews should leave Palestine. If you can't then I guess that makes you a liar. "

Sorry mate - this point is fundamentally flawed.

You accused "some" of this vierw and it wasn't the ones you agree with.

But you could easily clarify this one anyway by stating all those on this thread who you believe are of the opinion that Jews should leave Palestine.

You have asserted that "some" are of that view.


Who?


I can say with absolute certainty that all those you accuse of believing Jews shuld leave Palestine are in disagreement with you on this thread.


This isn't a game for me.

Only you have called it a game.

That says a lot about you and nothing about this discussion or anyone taking part.

Your slander, evasiveness and refusal to back up any point marks you out as dishonest.

Show some backbone and say who you mean and say where they have either said, implied or insinuated that Jews should leave Palestine.

If you, don't you mark yourself out not only as dishonest, but also as spineless.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 02:35 PM

Roberto, please show me where I said that one state in Palestine/Israel would or even should be ruled by Hamas.

And I'm not the one who started the accusations of partisanship. That would be Keith who did that. He really is in no position to be pointing fingers in that regard. And I would see no reason to point out the partisanship on this issue if people who are engaging in it wouldn't be pointing fingers at others for being partisan.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 02:29 PM

In 2007 just before the celebration of Italy's Holocaust Memorial Day the Italian government approved a bill that made denying the Holocaust a crime and stiffened prison sentences for those found guilty of inciting racial hatred.
The decree, submitted by Justice Minister Clemente Mastella, received unanimous approval by the Romano Prodi cabinet..

As this crime can result in a prison sentence I think Roberto that, if you do actually possess ANY evidence for your accusations, and it is not just another Hasbara inspired piece of smear tactics, then you have a moral duty to either put up or - shut up!

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 02:28 PM

State-sponsored racism is so 19th century.

But its recently been experiencing a real renaissance, Mouse.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 02:19 PM

"Well Bobad,

You have made a blanket acccusation against those who disagree with you on here that they believe Jews should leave Palestine."

I've seen that game played around here too many times to get suckered into it.

Let's try this one:

Well Lox,

Show me where I said that those who disagree with me believe that Jews should leave Palestine. If you can't then I guess that makes you a liar.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 02:01 PM

I don't want to quarrel with CarolC, but I can't help making a couple of comments on what she writes. She accuses Keith A of Hertford of partisanship. An Italian saying: il bue dice cornuto all'asino (the ox calls "cornuto" the donkey, "cornuto" means both horned animal and cuckold). I mean, she is the best in partisanship this thread has to offer. Previously, she replied to me saying I had swallowed the propaganda: it is funny to receive this remark from a person that believes that a single-state solution ruled by Hamas would be a democracy and a safe place where to live for the Israeli people: it would not be safe even for Fatah! In my opinion, the Israeli-Palestinian situation is a tragedy, with rights and wrongs mixed together. You can't support a single part. Especially we who don't live there, we should not be even more extreme than them who have suffered victims, losses and pains, but try to make a balanced solution become possible. I can't see an alternative to a two-states solution, although I'm aware it 's getting more difficult to build every day that passes. Dear CarolC, partisanship from us is not suitable. The Italian group on the flotilla was formed by anti-Semite people, linked to so-called historians that pretend the Holocaust never happened: we don't need that political mob.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 01:58 PM

The only difference between Likud and the other parties, Stringsinger, has been that Likud has been more open about what it is doing. The other governments have been just as bad, but they've been a lot more secretive. None of them have ever had any interest in finding a resolution to the problem. Labor governments have built as many settlements and started as many wars as Likud governments have. And it's not the new face of Zionism, either. The early Zionist leaders were quite open about their agenda to ethnically cleanse all of the Palestinians from Palestine. This has been the plan all along.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Stringsinger
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 01:49 PM

What is not being acknowledged here is that Israel has become a right-wing theocracy.
The Likkud is dominated by zealots and not reasonable people. When this happens, as it could in the U.S., any attempt at a reasonable solution is thwarted.

Zionism (Zion being a biblical term) started out as a different idea. It is now synonymous
with a violent regime to oppress others who are not Zionists. It has been redefined in the way Christianity is becoming in the U.S.

Fortunately, not all Jews are Zionists. The charge of "anti-semitism" is specious.

"Operation Cast Lead" was the final straw. This is the new face of Zionism.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 01:47 PM

I disagree with your assessment.

No problem. Just pull up a chair, grab yourself some popcorn, and watch what happens.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 01:42 PM

State-sponsored racism is so 19th century.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 01:36 PM

I disagree with your assessment.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 01:33 PM

No beardedbruce. It's going to happen the same way it happened in South Africa. It's going to collapse under its own weight, because Israel has it exists now is simply not sustainable. And the international civil society will not allow it.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 01:25 PM

"since Israel as a Jewish state will not exist for very much longer"

You mean that the Arabs nations will attack it AGAIN, trying to destroy it as they tried in 1948, and 1967?

Or do you mean that Iran will use it's nuclear weapons on Israel, and kill off both those pesky Jews and those annoying Palestinians? Or will they just give the WMD to Hezboallah, for them to use on all those non-existant missles that Iran sent them through Syria?

Either way, the Palestinian people will suffer greatly, and possibly be destroyed by the other Arab nations. I don't know why you think that a good thing- I don't.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 01:13 PM

From your lips to God's ears, Carol.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 01:10 PM

That's all entirely irrelevant, now, beardedbruce, since Israel as a Jewish state will not exist for very much longer. After that it will be a state of all of its citizens, and citizenship will not be determined by ethnicity or religion.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 01:08 PM

Israel is the successor state to Mandate Palestine, established in 1921 ( along with Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, and others) as the Jewish Homeland. It was a spoil of war awarded to Great Britain as a result of the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire.

In 1923 the British took 77% of the Mandate territory and created the Arab Homeland of Transjordan, where NO JEWS were allowed to settle, since the Mandate Power ( Great Britain) did not wish to have conflicts between the Jewish and Moslim populations. The remaining 23% was to be the Jewish Homeland.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 01:00 PM

There is NO Jewish state. The state is Israel, and a proportion of its population follow the Jewish faith.

Sorry, Netanyahu says it's a Jewish state. He demands that Hamas recognize it as a Jewish state. You're just flat-out wrong. STBU.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 12:55 PM

And if the passengers on the ships were so partisan that they would lie about what happened, why is it that they are the only ones who are calling for all of the video and photographic evidence to be released?   Really, don't insult our intelligence and yours with that "passengers can't be believed" nonsense. They are the ones who want everyone to see all of the evidence, while the government of Israel has done everything it possibly could to hide evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 12:43 PM

Most or all of those on board were intensely partisan against the Israelis. They were also clearly expecting trouble, or why the life jackets? They were witness to terrifying violence. I do not find their testimony reliable.

Well that's easy enough to clear up, isn't it? All Israel has to do is show all of the video and photographic evidence that they confiscated from the passengers. Right? Now I wonder why they won't do that.

And you find Israel's account credible even though they have been proven to have lied about everything else they have said about the flotilla? Why is that, Keith? Is it your own partisanship in this matter?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 12:37 PM

"They were also clearly expecting trouble, or why the life jackets?"

They knew from experience that Israel could attack in such a way that they might need the life jackets. Prior ships had been rammed by Israeli war ships. The members of the flotilla themselves said they anticipated the possibility that they might be sunk. But none of them expected Israeli helicopters to fire on sleeping passengers, which many of the passengers report did happen.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 12:34 PM

Keith, I want to see the language that defines who can blockade whom. The language I've seen so far says that a country can prevent foreign countries from bringing anything to the shores of the country that is enforcing the blockade. I have not yet seen any other definitions of who can conduct blockades and who can be blockaded.

There are some questions that arise with the language I have seen so far. The first, of course, is this - is Gaza a foreign country from Israel? If so, does that mean that Gaza is a country that is independent from Israel? The second is, if this is the case, then under the language I used above, Israel cannot be said to be preventing anything from reaching its own shores if it blockades Gazan waters.

I want to see the specific language as it appears in international maritime law, and how this language specifically applies in relation to both Israel and Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 12:02 PM

"An interesting opinion perspective, from The Halifax Chronicle Herald:"

Yes - an nteresting comparison of the flotilla, carrying humanitarian aid to Gaza, and the Russian Navy, carrying nuclear missiles to cuba at the height of the cold war.

That's almost as absurd as Golda Meyers friend Gerald Kaufman comparing the IDF to Nazi soldiers.

And of course we coudn't possibly countenance such gross exaggeration could we.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 11:48 AM

"- Two accounts from the BBC of the experiences of passengers on other ships "

And I have seen other similar accounts from the other ships.



Well Bobad,

You have made a blanket acccusation against those who disagree with you on here that they believe Jews should leave Palestine.

You refuse to provide examples.

That is because there are none.

Which makes your accusation a lie.


In fact, upon analysis, you haven't bothered to back up any of your assertions with evidence.

In addition, you appeart to have ignored the available evidence.


That makes your other posts meaningless.


The fact yhe you consider a request for evidence to be a "tactic" is evidence that your point of view is a fantasy.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 11:31 AM

An interesting opinion perspective, from The Halifax Chronicle Herald:
http://thechronicleherald.ca/Opinion/1186265.html

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 11:01 AM

"and stopped other vessels that night.
All without violence."

Well, this was the official Hasbara spin while the passengers from the flotiila were still held in prisons in Israel

However on returning home a very different picture to the peaceful 'takeover' has developed


Activist Dimitris Gielalis, who had been aboard the Sfendoni, was among six Greeks who returned home on Tuesday.

"Suddenly from everywhere we saw inflatables coming at us, and within seconds fully equipped commandos came up on the boat," he said.

"They came up and used plastic bullets, we had beatings, we had electric shocks, any method we can think of, they used."

Mr Gielalis said the boat's captain was beaten for refusing to leave the wheel, and had sustained non-life-threatening injuries, while a cameraman filming the raid was hit with a rifle butt in the eye.

"Of course we weren't prepared for a situation of war," he said.


Aris Papadokostopoulos was aboard the Free Mediterranean, travelling behind the Mavi Marmara and carrying mainly Greek and Swedish activists.

"The Turkish ship [the Mavi Marmara] was in front of us... on which there was a terrible raid from the air and from the sea and from everywhere, with shooting," he said.

Mr Papadokostopoulos said aboard the other boats, commandos beat activists but nobody was gravely injured.

He said no-one put up resistance on the Free Mediterranean, which was carrying a cargo of wheelchairs, building material and medical and pharmaceutical aid.

"Some people were hit by clubs and electric shocks. During their interrogation, many of them were badly beaten in front of us," he said.

- Two accounts from the BBC of the experiences of passengers on other ships

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Penny S.
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 10:50 AM

It's very curious that the Russians have chosen now to reveal that they are trying some of their soldiers for theft of cards belonging to the dead of the Polish air crash - I wonder if it is to show up the Israelis who have similarly stolen cards, cameras and so on.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 10:43 AM

"They were also clearly expecting trouble, or why the life jackets?"

Of course they were expecting trouble Keith - Israel's foreign minister, Avigdor Lieberman, said the country was prepared to stop the flotilla with its cargo of humanitarian aid "AT ANY COST."

A previous incident in December 2008 when a similar attempt to reach Gaza by sea ended in the activists' boat being rammed by the Israeli navy
The passengers on board the flotilla were wearing life jackets - not flak jackets!!

"I suspect that the soldiers were not expecting a fight and sought not to appear provacative, otherwise I simply can not believe that Israeli commandos could be so readily overcome by people armed only with clubs."

I believe they were possibly not expecting a 'fight' too, but dropping from the sky at 4 am in the morning masked and apparently armed to the teeth - could you tell a paint gun from a lethal rifle under those conditions? - the passengers were quite obviously convinced they were under lethal attack as in fact they were when the commandos opened fire with their pistols at close range at their attackers, one of whom, Cevdet Kýlýçlar who was shot in the head was armed solely with his camera

As they were dropped one by one I suppose they were heavily outnumbered by the passengers

Despite such overwhelming odds however none of the Commandoes were killed despite the photos of the 'weapons' claimed to be found on board

It is alleged that the final commando to be lowered was responsible for killing at at least six of the victims and it is reported that he is in line for a medal of valour.

Is that a 'provocation'?