BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 06:46 AM

Keith A, as someone who follows this thread, I understand Jims decision to try to avoid engaging in disagreement with you. It's getting too personal.

If you're genuinely concerned about people hearing the "Israeli side" rather than wasting time with personal squabbling, why don't you simply post the "Israeli side" in response to Jim's post? I'm sure I'd rather read that!

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 03:23 AM

"Maybe I should just cut-n-paste in future - seems to be the going thing nowadays."

What do you suppose he meant?
Let me tell you.
A few days ago I posted my thoughts on what led to Bloody Sunday.
Jim replied that he easily found a web piece that I had cut and pasted almost verbatim from.
This was a lie.
They were my own thoughts.
A blatant and flagrant lie told for the basest of reasons; to undermine and discredit the opinion of someone whe dared to disagree with Jim.
He refused to withdraw or even acknowledge the lie, and now he compounds the crime by taunting me with it.
Beneath contempt.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 02:14 AM

"trolling -"
I suppose that passing on information that the the same people who murdered aid-suppliers have recently shelled a Palestinian family eating a meal outside their home, then prevented medical assistance from getting through and instead, stood and watched while a member of that family died because of their "let's go and slaughter some civilians today" policy, - might be considered trolling if you are in favour of that sort of thing.
I hadn't realised that quoting news sources had now become mandatory - surely, if Keith can look it up for himself, anyone can (unlike him, most people can stretch to more a couple of paragraphs at a time). Maybe I should just cut-n-paste in future - seems to be the going thing nowadays.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 01:52 AM

Crow Sister,
Jims reopened the thread with this and one other story.
This story is not relevant to the subject of the thread and is a one sided post on a highly contentious issue.
What we usually call trolling.

If you want to be more than just a propagandist, I think you should aim for some balance.
Jim says he got the story from the morning press. All the papers I saw gave both sides.
Jim often quotes from "his" Irish Times and that paper did.

If he is being honest about the paper he read, he might still have guessed that there was more to it.
If the Israelis planned to murder this poor woman, they could have used a more discreet method than an artillery barrage.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 10 - 06:03 PM

Thank you C.S. - decided to stop talking to eejits and nausing up threads by monopolising them - would that......!
For the record; I didn't mention The Irish Times, nor did I read it there.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 18 Jul 10 - 05:31 PM

"Your Irish Times did give the Israeli version, albeit very briefly and curtly, but you chose not to include any of it in your post.
Dishonest really."

Failure to respond to your post doesn't equate to "dishonesty", it means (from what I gathered on another thread) that Jim has for his own reasons, decided not to engage with further debate with YOU. Jim briefly mentioned a piece of current news. That's all. Nothing dishonest in doing that.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jul 10 - 05:07 PM

Jim, if you only tell one side of the story, you are just another propagandist.
Not worth reading.
Your Irish Times did give the Israeli version, albeit very briefly and curtly, but you chose not to include any of it in your post.
Dishonest really.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 10 - 04:40 PM

"But I asked what Israel have been doing in the way of starving Kurds recently."
No idea - I just know what they are doing by way of murdering civilians
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: greg stephens
Date: 18 Jul 10 - 03:08 PM

Yes, things pretty much as usual I see. But I asked what Israel have been doing in the way of starving Kurds recently. Simple question, a simple answer required.Not a load of stuff about the Holocaust.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 10 - 03:04 PM

"....usual people are hammering Israel."
Not another "Let's hide behind the Holocaust to excuse the behaviour of Israel" - surely!
Israel has done a good enough job in disgracing the Jewish people without anybody having to "hammer Israel".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: greg stephens
Date: 18 Jul 10 - 02:55 PM

"And of course he can now go back and suffer slow starvation at the hands of the same nation which provided the medical help."
Don: what on earth are you talking about? In what way is Israel starving the Kurds? I have just dipped in to this thread after missing a thousand or so posts, and find as usual people are hammering Israel. But this is the first time I've heard them accused of starving Iraqi Kurdistan. In fact, I should have thought it was quite well known that Kurdistan has had a lot of help from Israel against the Arabs in Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Jul 10 - 01:50 PM

""One of those who underwent surgery at the hospital is nine-year-old Kurdish boy Aram, who made his way to Israel along with his mother Shawana from Iraq, via Jordan. "His condition has improved. Before the operation he had trouble breathing. Now he is breathing better," said the mother.

"I am glad he had the operation and I was not afraid to come to Israel. Everyone knew that we were travelling to Israel. We did not keep it a secret," she added.

According to a price list published by the Health Ministry, open heart surgery costs NIS 67,000 ($18,000), but the cost of an operation for children who are part of the project is only NIS 27,000 ($7,000).

Wolfson Medical Center Director Dr. Yitzhak Berlovitz said, "We are proud of this project, and hope other hospitals will take an active role in it."

Seems he had to take the pretty way to Israel, rather than risk being taken for a rather small terrorist and being shot on the Gaza/Israel border. And of course he can now go back and suffer slow starvation at the hands of the same nation which provided the medical help.

And one is supposed to cancel out the other?......I don't think so!

Maybe if Israel had not destroyed the Gaza infrastructure, he could have had treatment at home.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 10 - 10:51 AM

No doubt Israel will put itself on trial (if forced to do so by outside pressure or bad publicity) and find itself 'not guilty' - as it always has.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 18 Jul 10 - 06:47 AM

'Israel's answer to flotillas - helping Gaza's children'

Regional Cooperation Ministry, EU to allocate about $750,000 towards 'Save a Child's Heart' project, which helps fund surgery for Palestinian children, as well as kids from developing nations. Mother of Kurdish child: We didn't keep our trip to Israel a secret

Some 250 children suffering from severe and life-threatening heart defects will be given the opportunity to undergo surgery thanks to the "Save a Child's Heart" project at the Edith Wolfson Medical Center in Holon.

The association, which was founded 15 years ago, has helped fund surgeries for more than 2,400 children - about half of them from the Palestinian Authority and Gaza and the rest from some 40 developing nations, including Iraq, Morocco, Angola and Romania.

The EU is expected to issue a 400,000 euro ($496,000) grant towards the project, while Minister for Regional Cooperation Silvan Shalom announced his office would allocate NIS 1 million (about $260,000) to the program, enough to perform an additional 250 surgeries a year.

"At a time when the world is debating Israel's actions in Gaza, our answer to the next flotilla is this project and saving children from Gaza," Minister Shalom said during a ceremony held at the hospital Sunday. "We are not engaged in a conflict with the Palestinian people, but with the Palestinian Authority and Hamas."

Funds transferred by the EU will be used to train Palestinian physicians, to operate on Palestinian children with heart problems and to support joint Israeli-Palestinian community activity.

European Union Ambassador to Israel Andrew Standley said during the ceremony at Wolfson that the project proves that Israel and the Palestinians can cooperate.

One of those who underwent surgery at the hospital is nine-year-old Kurdish boy Aram, who made his way to Israel along with his mother Shawana from Iraq, via Jordan. "His condition has improved. Before the operation he had trouble breathing. Now he is breathing better," said the mother.

"I am glad he had the operation and I was not afraid to come to Israel. Everyone knew that we were travelling to Israel. We did not keep it a secret," she added.

According to a price list published by the Health Ministry, open heart surgery costs NIS 67,000 ($18,000), but the cost of an operation for children who are part of the project is only NIS 27,000 ($7,000).

Wolfson Medical Center Director Dr. Yitzhak Berlovitz said, "We are proud of this project, and hope other hospitals will take an active role in it."

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3908597,00.html

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jul 10 - 05:42 AM

What is the Israeli side of this tragic story Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 10 - 08:53 AM

Examples of the two faces of Israel are reported in this morning's press.
Israeli officials appear to have conceded that the blockade MIGHT be lifted - amazing what an 'own goal' can achieve!!!
On the other hand - a Palastinian family having a meal outside their home were struck by Israeli shells, seriously injuring the mother.
Israeli troops refused to allow medical assistance through to her and she died.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 03 Jul 10 - 07:00 AM

"Toothless in Gaza?"

Commenting on the setting up of an internal enquiry into the attack on the aid flotilla Paul Wood, the BBC Newscorrespondent in Jerusalem wrote

"An experienced politician like Benjamin Netanyahu knows that getting the outcome you want from a public inquiry is all about the right terms of reference and who you appoint to sit on the inquiry.

So, the commissions' remit does not include looking at the process of government decision making which led to Israeli commando raid. It will instead focus on questions of international law.

And the two foreign observers who have been appointed are seen as friends of Israel.

Turkey - and others critical of Israel - want a fully independent UN commission of inquiry. This demand has now been deflected with the appointment of credible (but not unfriendly) international figures as non-voting observers."

(In fact Mr Trimble is one of the prominent co-founders of the pro-Israel, Paris-based advocacy group "Friends of Israel")

Even the Israeli newspaper Haaretz had reservations about the enquiry

"The government's efforts to avoid a thorough and credible investigation of the flotilla affair seem more and more like a farce.

The conclusions of an ostensible probe are intended to justify retroactively the decision to blockade Gaza, to forcibly stop the Turkish aid flotilla in international waters and to use deadly force on the deck of the Mavi Marmara.

To make the costume seem credible, the Prime Minister's Bureau asked a retired Supreme Court justice, Yaakov Tirkel, to chair the committee. Alongside him will sit foreign observers in order to legitimize the conclusions in international public opinion"


The panel consists of Shabtai Rosen, a 93-year-old British-born professor and former diplomat, and Amos Horev, an 86-year-old retired army major general and a former president of an Israeli university at 75, Yaakov Tirkel is the youngest.

HOWEVER - as Paul Wood again reports on BBC News, Jerusalem 30 June

"People don't like being made fun of and old people are more sensitive to this than others - so said one Israeli newspaper explaining why, in its view, the Tirkel commission had turned on the Israeli government and demanded new powers.
Certainly there was a lot of criticism in the Israeli press at the commission:
It was too old. The average age was 84.
It was toothless.
It was a mere fig leaf for the Israeli government, a commission intended solely for foreign export."

It is reported by Israeli media that Mr Tirkel has demanded that the panel be recognised as a state commission of inquiry with the power to subpoena witnesses and recommend sanctions and would resign if this was not met

Although 'sources close to the inquiry' have denied the reports, the prime minister issued a statement on Tuesday saying the cabinet was ready to grant the commission's request to allow it to subpoena witnesses and have them testify under oath.

Nevertheless,
it specified that the extended mandate would not allow the panel to question any of the commandos involved in the flotilla raid, citing security considerations and will rely instead on summaries of the army's internal investigation

The scope of the investigation is still limited to examining the conformity of the naval blockade with the rules of international law; the conformity of the actions during the raid to principles of international law; and the actions taken by those who organized and participated in the flotilla, and their identities

It does as Haaretz criticizes (13.06.10)

'not intend to probe the decision-making process that preceded the takeover of the ship and the shortcomings that were uncovered.

Netanyahu's panel will have no powers, not even those of a government probe, and its proposed chairman does not believe in such a panel. In an interview to Army Radio, Tirkel said there is no choice but to establish a state committee of inquiry. He opposed bringing in foreign observers and made clear that he is not a devotee of drawing conclusions about individuals and dismissing those responsible for failures.
When a Haaretz reporter confronted Tirkel about these remarks, the former justice evaded the question saying, "I don't remember what I said." '

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jul 10 - 04:37 AM

I agree with Jim on this.
Emma, this old eejit has learned a lot about the Gazan situation from your informed and well researched posts.
The thread would be poorer without your contribution.
keith.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 10 - 03:05 PM

Emma;
Please don't let this eejit drive you from this thread - he really isn't the sharpest knife in the box and the subject in hand deserves far more than he can possibly bring to it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jul 10 - 01:14 PM

Emma, I understood this thread to be about the aid flotilla, and the events surrounding it.

There were few people prepared to take a balanced view.
The debate was very partisan.
You are a deeply committed person. Nothing wrong with that but you should be prepared to at least consider the views of others, and to make your own case without trying to hide relevant facts.
You lose credibility when you are exposed.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 02 Jul 10 - 12:31 PM

Keith - you have totally sabotaged a thread concerning the plight of the civilian population of Gaza - congratulations and goodbye! - I really have no further interest in playing your diversionary 'games'

I have conducted no 'deceit' I'm prepared to let my posts speak for themselves
- I have never expressed any view contrary to my stance that there is a humanitarian crisis in Gaza and that neither the extent of it nor the opposition within Israel itself and the global Jewish diaspora is being allowed to reach many in the Western world due to the degree control exercised over the media and the extensive and well funded propaganda machine of the Israeli government.

Maybe you should make your elected role of acting as the mouthpiece of that machine by employing similar tactics clear too.


The use of 'edited' and misleading videos (like the completely discredited audio tape claimed to be from the Mavi Marmara) is nothing new to the Israeli authorities

Back in Jan 2009 the BBC was reporting
"The Israeli propaganda effort is being directed to achieve two main aims.

The first is to justify the air attacks.
The second is to show that there is no humanitarian calamity in Gaza.

Both these aims are intended to place Israel in a strong position internationally and to enable its diplomacy to act as an umbrella to fend off calls for a ceasefire while the military operation unfolds.

Israel has pursued the first aim by being very active in getting its story across that Hamas is to blame. The sight of Hamas rockets streaking into Israel has been helpful in this respect.

It has also allowed trucks in with food aid and has stressed that it will not let people starve, even if they go short.

One of its spokespeople, who has regularly appeared on the international media, Major Avital Leibovich said: "Quite a few outlets are very favourable to Israel."

Paul Reynolds, World affairs correspondent for the BBC News website commenting on a video that is not all it is claimed to be
Who is practising 'deceit' here Keith?

as Reynolds added

Update: "several readers have e-mailed to ask whether I believe Hamas. One said I had "bought into" Hamas propaganda. Another that I should have dealt with Hamas' claims: "What's missing speaks volumes about your one-sidedness."

I do not believe anyone's "propaganda."
We seek to verify all claims, from whatever source.
One of the main claims in Gaza at the moment is the serious situation for the population.
Having reported from Gaza many times over the years, I know how crowded parts of it are and how dependent the people are on food aid from the UN. This means they have no other source of supply but equally, if the system is working, they should be getting enough to get by on. The problem is that foreign correspondents cannot get in to establish the exact situation for themselves.

Further update:

"I have had several hundred e-mails about this article. They are more or less evenly balanced between those who criticise it and those who praise it.

I would stress that I looked only at the Israeli side because of the new factor -
ISRAEL SETTING UP A SPECIAL UNIT TO IMPROVE THE PROJECTION OF ITS ARGUMENTS AROUND THE WORLD"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7809371.stm

"When events and reality break through, contradicting the Israeli-established narrative, creating stories that run counter to the imposed story line, the propaganda machine works overtime to deny, deny, deny (saying quite boldly, "Who do you believe, me or your lying eyes?"),
and/or concoct a counter-narrative that shifts the blame."

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jul 10 - 08:46 AM

Emma,


"Hamas, meanwhile, said it wanted either all the aid or nothing."

That was Hamas' position, and you sought to hide that fact.

Your statement, "I pointed out that in fact Hamas had declared it would accept the aid in its entirety " conceals that fact that they would ONLY accept it in its entirety, and is deception.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 02 Jul 10 - 07:58 AM

Google "Hamas Propaganda" and "Palestinian Propaganda" - purely in the name of balance, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 02 Jul 10 - 07:46 AM

"you have not explained why you did it."

Keith I appreciate that you have not yet had time to read the article in the Huffington Post from last year
How Israel's Propoganda Machine Works

before replying to my last post with more nit picking totally diverting attention away from the BBC report about the failure to allow the UN to complete desperately needed reconstruction of schools and homes by the Israeli authorities.

If I was as cynical of other peoples motives as you appear to be of mine I might wonder why you continually do this.


"Because it recognizes the importance of the propaganda war, Israel fights on this front as vigorously and disproportionately as it engages on the battlefield."

"Be everywhere, and say the same thing -- and make sure your opponents remain as invisible as possible"

Although this paragraph refers to the reporting of the war the same propaganda methods were applied to the attack on the flotilla and its aftermath

" The work of their propaganda operation, which spreads multiple spokespersons in venues across the United States with consistent talking points, guarantees success.
At the same time, they are able to deny media access to Gaza, only allowing the Western reporters to operate near the war zone under IDF supervision, guaranteeing Israel the opportunity to shape every aspect of the story while removing the possibility of independent verification of the horror unfolding in Gaza."

You emphazized the report that

"Hamas, meanwhile, said it wanted either all the aid or nothing."

I pointed out that in fact Hamas had declared it would accept the aid in its entirety

Now, while the two statements represent the same situation, there is a world of difference in the way they are reported and I think the Israeli propaganda machine has more than enough resources without my needing to repeat this heavily loaded line fed to the, mainly American, press.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jul 10 - 07:17 AM

I agree with all that Emma.
I have no problem with anything you have said, but you should not have deleted that sentence, and you have not explained why you did it.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 02 Jul 10 - 07:09 AM

"Cement is cheap, Tamiflu worthless, but hundreds of mobility scooters?"

Cement may be cheap but both cement and electric wheelchairs were banned from entry into Gaza - cement still is - so there is a shortage Keith.

However depite the 'worthlessness' of some of the medication (a common feature in this kind of response according to the Red Cross - see my most recent post) I agree with the commentary by James Hider the Times war correspondent that

"For the people of Gaza the most precious commodity on board the Turkish flotilla stormed by Israel last month was not electric wheelchairs or children's toys or medicine: it was hope.

Adults, unable to freely to express their trauma in a deeply traditional society, often develop psychosomatic physical symptoms for which inexperienced doctors prescribe painkillers — leaving many people hooked on prescription drugs. Domestic violence has increased as partners vent their frustration on each other in this sealed-off enclave whose infrastructure has been destroyed by Israeli bombs and cannot be rebuilt because no construction materials are allowed in.

That is why, when the Turkish-led flotilla tried to break the blockade, people in Gaza suddenly felt a renewed hope that the world had not forgotten them entirely"

Full report

Keith, I do not want to get into an interminable nit picking exchange that you seem to revel in with others as I think some issues are too important for that kind of exercise however

PLEASE NOTE -

" you deleted the one short sentence that referred to Hamas' initial refusal to let in any of the aid."

What I said Keith was that
"Hamas had said that it would accept the cargo in its entirety including the batteries required by the scooters and the much needed cement"

Same meaning but not the 'official' Israeli spin

"Be everywhere, and say the same thing / Give no ground / Deny Deny Deny"

and finally

"The last refuge.... When all else fails, point to a few examples of outrageous anti-Semitism, generalize them, suggesting that that is what motivates critics.
It stings, and may be over-used, but it can silence or put critics on the defensive."

How Israel's Propoganda Machine Works The Huffington Post

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jul 10 - 06:38 AM

Emma, I was surprised and disappointed, but it did look like editing for a purpose.
You gave us an extract. Perfectly reasonable.
But, you deleted the one short sentence that referred to Hamas' initial refusal to let in any of the aid.
And that short sentence was in the middle.

I am sorry if I missed the scooter refs. but I have never heard such vehicles described as wheelchairs before.
I am sure I was not the only one deceived by that.

I have also never heard of such vehicles forming part of an aid shipment either.
And there were hundreds of them!

They are worth hundreds each.
Cement is cheap, Tamiflu worthless, but hundreds of mobility scooters?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 02 Jul 10 - 06:22 AM

Keith - I resent the implication I 'edit' with the intent to deceive.

As I have explained on another post, where I was criticized for copying a section of a report verbatim, I tend to give the 'gist' of the report with some quotes and the source - which in the case you cite was suffcient to refer back to, with or without a link - you obviously had no difficulty!

"We assumed they were the basic sort.
We were not told that they were really motorised scooters that came with those useful heavy duty batteries and chargers"

correction - YOU assumed Keith!

If you look back over the thread I think you will find references to motorized scooters, if not there were very many such references in the press

At one stage the Israel military reported -

"Major Guy Inbar, the Israeli military official charged with liaising with Palestinian officials told the German Press Agency dpa that Hamas was refusing to allow the aid in through Israeli-controlled border crossings over land.
Inbar denied charges by Hamas officials that the transfer of the electric wheelchairs to the Kerem Shalom crossing was a propaganda move and a "deception" because Israel had allegedly removed their batteries.

"The batteries are in the mini-scooters. That's another lie that you heard from the Hamas spokesman," he said.

Haaretz 8th June

But, in fact, we now know that wasn't true as the representative of the WHO negoitiated for the provision of the wheelchair batteries


The medical supplies were not matched to the need of the Gazans - this has also been extensively reported - however you will also find very similar reports about the type of inappropiate medical donations sent to Haiti in reaction to the recent disaster

From one Red Cross blog

"I spend a large amount of my time post-disaster speaking on the phone with people who tell me that they don't just want to donate money but they want to do more.
They have medical items, clothes or food to give instead.
People sometimes get cross or upset when I turn down their well meant offer.
And that's the point; their offer is genuinely well intentioned. They just aren't aware of the reasons why the Red Cross can't take these goods. Unfortunately I don't always have the time to fully explain why. Last Friday I spent more than half a day taking such calls for Haiti

In the Venezuela floods in 2000, seventy percent of donated pharmaceuticals had to be destroyed."


You are correct in identifying the need for drugs to treat cancer.

This is why I was particularly concerned about the progress of the all female aid ship Miriam which is said to be carrying medication for treatment of cancer in children and breast and uterus cancer treatments.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jul 10 - 01:36 AM

All true Don, but completely one sided.
They can claim to comply with the law, and then we can only let the lawyers argue it out.
Does Hamas even do that.
Their rocket attacks and teatment of prisoners for instance is in total disregard of international laws.

We all wondered why Israel could be so suspicious about wheelchairs.
We assumed they were the basic sort.
We were not told that they were really motorised scooters that came with those useful heavy duty batteries and chargers.
How generous.
A pity IHH was not so generous with its "medical supplies"
The Gazans needed cancer drugs and medicine for hemophilia and cystic fibrosis."
What they got was Tamiflu.
Tamiflu was stockpiled in vast amounts during the swineflu panic.
Now you could not give it away.
Except to Gazans obviously.

(You will find all this in the NY Times piece I linked to, and which Emma supplied a carefully edited piece from.)

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 01 Jul 10 - 07:17 PM

""Israel does let some aid in. We know it is not enough, but they let it through to claim compliance with the law.

Disregarding the law would be letting nothing through. Right Don?""

Keith, you amaze me.

You don't see that there is a world of difference between claiming compliance, and actually complying.

You can't "half" obey the law, you are either obeying it or you are not.

This is the selfsame nonsense which culminated in Saddam Hussain losing, first, control of his country, and eventually his life.

Israel get away with it, Iraq didn't.

It ain't what you do, it's who your pals are.

And if you are friendly with the USA, it appears that the normally accepted limits of behaviour simply do not apply.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 01 Jul 10 - 09:01 AM

The compelling need for building materials -

"During the three-year blockade, the U.N. has been forced to put nearly $110 million worth of construction projects on hold, including six schools, five clinics and 2,300 apartments for Gaza's poorest and those made homeless by past Israeli military operations.

In coming days, Israel will review building projects with representatives of international organizations, including the U.N., said Maj. Guy Inbar, a Defense Ministry official.
If there are no security concerns, talks will begin on how much material is needed, he said.

Such a procedure was in place during the blockade, BUT ONLY ONE U.N. CONSTRUCTION PROJECT WAS EVER APPROVED AND THEN ONLY AFTER THE DIRECT INTERVENTION BY U.N. SECRETARY GENERAL BAN KI-MOON.
Cement and other building materials were delivered only last month.

Even before the blockade, most of Gaza's 119 U.N. schools were overcrowded, running morning and afternoon shifts with as many as 50 students crammed into a classroom.

With no new schools being built and a third shift deemed unacceptable, even by Gaza's harsh standards, alternatives were hard to find. One principal rented space outside his school to store supplies so he could turn a storage room into another classroom.

In the Nusseirat refugee camp, the U.N. turned 17 shipping containers into a school for nearly 900 middle school boys at the start of the 2009-2010 school year.
Principal Hamdan al-Hor said parents initially did not want to send their children there, but conditions became more tolerable when he mounted fans to circulate the stifling hot air.
Welders cut openings for doors and windows and whitewashed the metal walls, transforming the containers into classrooms, as well as a small science lab, a library and a computer rooms. A sandy lot serves as a playground.

Still, even the container model couldn't be copied elsewhere because Israel stalled on U.N. requests to allow in dozens more containers, with the first batch only arriving toward the end of the school year, U.N. officials said."

AP report by Karin Laub

BBC News video
- a look at stalled UN reconstruction projects and the use of tunnels to import the cement that the UN can't use.

'If the blockade doesn't make Gaza watertight - why does it continue?'

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jul 10 - 08:49 AM

And, you forgot the link.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/01/world/middleeast/01gaza.html

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jul 10 - 08:47 AM

Emma, you clipped a sentence from your NY Times report.

I will add brackets to the missing bit for you.

Israel wanted to send in only materials that it was sure could not be used for weapons by Hamas. It also did not want the sponsor of the flotilla, a Turkish Islamic charity known by the initials I.H.H., to distribute the goods because of its close ties to Hamas. (Hamas, meanwhile, said it wanted either all the aid or nothing.)

In the end, the United Nations agreed

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jul 10 - 07:24 AM

Thanks Emma. I am glad it has been accepted now.

This was on 17th June.
Thirty loaded trucks have been stuck at the Kerem Shalom crossing into the Gaza Strip, while another 40 truck-loads of aid are being stored in warehouses operated by the Israeli Coordination and Liaison Administration (CLA) for the Strip.

The trucks contain desperately needed medical supplies, such as hospital beds and wheelchairs, and building materials.

"The UN will take responsibility for the delivery of the aid cargo," Ahmed Yousef, deputy foreign minister of the Hamas-led government in Gaza, said. He added that some other international aid relief organizations would join the UN in the distribution process.

The Hamas government initially decided not to receive any of the flotilla's aid before the release of those passengers "kidnapped and held hostage" by Israel and not until all the flotilla's relief supplies were greenlighted to enter Gaza, Ghazi Hamad, head of borders and crossings under the Hamas-led government, told IRIN.
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/IRIN/0036878dd5a26059afaa5d42abf42317.htm

Wikipedia says,
According to Israeli and Palestinian sources, as of 2 June 2010 Hamas refused to allow the humanitarian aid into Gaza until Israeli authorities released all flotilla detainees and allowed building materials, which are thought to make up the majority, 8,000 of the 10,000 tons of the goods, to reach them.[69][194][195] Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh said, "We are not seeking to fill our (bellies), we are looking to break the Israeli siege on Gaza."[196]

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 01 Jul 10 - 05:51 AM

"Has Hamas allowed in the aid carried by the flotilla yet?
Why the delay?"

June 30th

"One month after Israeli commandos killed nine Turks in a raid on a flotilla trying to break the Gaza blockade, the ships' cargo of aid has begun to arrive here by land, starting Wednesday with 82 second-hand battery-powered scooters for the handicapped.

The cargo has been sitting in Israel for weeks while the Hamas authorities, the Israeli military and international aid agencies negotiated its fate.
Israel wanted to send in only materials that it was sure could not be used for weapons by Hamas.
It also did not want the sponsor of the flotilla, a Turkish Islamic charity known by the initials I.H.H., to distribute the goods
because of its close ties to Hamas

In the end, the United Nations agreed to distribute the goods.

A convoy of 128 trucks carried the cargo into Gaza from Israel as the American Middle East envoy, George J. Mitchell, watched from the Israeli side. He expressed approval at Israel's agreement, in the wake of the flotilla disaster, to ease its blockade somewhat, though the movement of goods and people out of Gaza remains largely blocked.

Mr. Daher, of the World Health Organization, told Israel he would NOT accept the scooters without their batteries and chargers, something Israeli officials considered withholding out of fear they would be diverted to militant use."

From The New York Times

Hamas had said that it would accept the cargo in its entirety including the batteries required by the scooters and the much needed cement

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jul 10 - 02:35 AM

A few people make a lot of money by bringing stuff in through the tunnels, and Hamas takes its cut.
When a large batch of aid comes in, the inflated price of tunnel goods takes a nosedive.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jun 10 - 03:24 PM

"Keith can you come up with ANY argument that the naval and land blockade of Gaza represents anything other than collective punishment in order to push the Palestinians and make them create a pressure on Hamas after it won the parliamentary elections?"

The Israelis argue that Iran for instance would try to get weapons in.
Do you have any arguments that they would not?

"Can you justify that this represents proportinate action? "
No.
If it were my son though, I might well answer yes.

"The have consitently refused to let in concrete to rebuild the schools and ospitals they razed to the ground in their last incursion.
Jim Carroll "
They say they have refused concrete to build bunkers and rocket silos.

Aid is held up when Hamas attacks the crossing points.
Why do they do that?
Has Hamas allowed in the aid carried by the flotilla yet?
Why the delay?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jun 10 - 02:05 PM

"They argue that they let in enough essentials to cover it."
The have consitently refused to let in concrete to rebuild the schools and ospitals they razed to the ground in their last incursion.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 30 Jun 10 - 12:39 PM

Keith can you come up with ANY argument that the naval and land blockade of Gaza represents anything other than collective punishment in order to push the Palestinians and make them create a pressure on Hamas after it won the parliamentary elections?

The blockade, preventing all exports from Gaza and confining imports to a limited supply of humanitarian goods, has failed to bring down Hamas but has heaped misery on Gaza's 1.5 million residents.


There is no doubt that some Israelis justify the Israeli blockade solely by saying that it has to continue because of the imprisoned Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit who was taken hostage in the time the Israeli army was acting within Gaza borders.
(However nearly three-quarters of Israelis said recently they would back a prisoner swap deal, in a Yediot Aharonot poll.)

According to UN statistics, around 70% of Gazans live on less than $1 a day, 75% rely on food aid, 60% have no daily access to water and over half of under five year olds suffer from malnutition.

Even though the Palestinian militant group holding the soldier as hostage deny access as you point out -

Can you justify that this represents proportinate action?

Unfortunately the plight of detainees is used by both sides of the Israel/Gaza conflict as bargaining chips in political negotiations.

Since early June 2007, the Israeli authorities have barred all family visits for some 900 Palestinians from Gaza detained in Israeli prisons. Up to then, visits were already limited to some family members only.

Some people have not seen their jailed relatives for a decade or more. (figure from Amnesty)


Are you aware that in 2006 Hamas dropped any call for the destruction of Israel from its manifesto, a move that brings the group closer to the mainstream Palestinian position of building a state within the boundaries of the occupied territories?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jun 10 - 11:51 AM

I am no lawyer Emma.
I will rephrase my statement for you.

Israel does let some aid in. We know it is not enough, but they let it through to claim compliance with the law.

Disregarding the law would be letting nothing through. Right Don?

If the attacks on Israel stopped, would the flow of aid be likely to increase or decrease?
If the soldier was shown to be OK, would it be likely to increase or decrease?

And if they stopped calling for the destruction of Israel....

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 30 Jun 10 - 11:35 AM

" but they let it through to comply with the law."

First let's look at some 'laws' Keith

We'll start with the obvious one which has been discussed here the naval and land blockade

The 1909 Declaration Concerning the Laws of Naval War (the London Declaration), the first international instrument to acknowledge the legality of blockades, specifically recognized the right of belligerents to blockade their enemy during time of war.
Article 97 of the San Remo Manual does likewise

But what justifies a blockade in non-international armed conflict (NIAC)? The London Declaration does not justify such a blockade, because it only applies to "war"– war being understood at the time as armed conflict between two states.

The seeming absence of support for blockades in NIAC is obviously important, because it is difficult to argue that Israel is involved in an IAC with Hamas.

First, it is obviously not in a traditional IAC, because Gaza is not a state.
Second, not even Israel claims that the conflict has been internationalized by the involvement of another state.
And third, although the Israeli Supreme Court held — controversially — in the Targeted Killings case that armed conflict between an occupying power and a rebel group is international, Israel's official position is that it not currently occupying Gaza.

Insofar as Israel insists that it is not currently occupying Gaza, it cannot plausibly claim that it is involved in an IAC with Hamas. And if it is not currently involved in an IAC with Hamas, it is difficult to see how it can legally justify the blockade of Gaza.

Its blockade of Gaza, therefore, seems to depend on its willingness to concede that it is occupying Gaza and is thus in an IAC with Hamas.

But Israel does not want to do that, because it would then be bound by the very restrictive rules of belligerent occupation in the Fourth Geneva Convention

As an occupying power that exercises effective control over Gaza, Israel has legal obligations to the residents of the occupied territory under the Fourth Geneva Convention, including the general duty to protect civilians under its control, and the specific duty to allow adequate access to food and medical supplies

Israel's claim that its occupation of Gaza ended with its 2005 withdrawal of troops and settlers from the Strip is an attempt to absolve itself of responsibility for Gazan civilians.
The continued control of Gaza's territorial waters, its airspace, the flow of people and goods through its land borders, and its continued ground and air incursions into the territory, verify that it exercises the "effective control" necessary to qualify as a foreign occupying power under the Fourth Geneva Convention.

Even if the Gaza Strip were not occupied, Israel would still be constrained by the principle of proportionality in imposing the blockade.

This means that the military advantage gained must outweigh the harm caused the civilian population.

To comply with the law -

IT MEANS THAT THE BLOCKADE MAY BE NO MORE RESTRICTIVE THAN IS NECESSARY FOR MILITARY PURPOSES !

In other words there is no justification in law whatsoever for the refusal to allow in hundreds of items of food plus batteries for hearing aids, childrens crayons, school books, shoes, musical instruments hair brushes and the many purely arbitary list of banned goods which it took a court case to uncover except to break the spirit of the 1.5 million residents

Israel's stated objective in imposing the blockade is largely not military, but political in nature, namely, to weaken Gaza's economy and decrease support for Hamas.
The damage that the blockade has caused to the civilian population is therefore clearly disproportionate to any military advantage Israel could obtain from the blockade.


Settlements and international law

The consensus view of the international community is that the building of Israeli settlements in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, is illegal under international law.

The primary judicial organ of the UN, the International Court of Justice, found the settlements to be illegal under international law.
The Court's finding was based on the provisions of the Fourth Geneva Convention and UN Security council resolutions, which condemned establishment of settlements and attempts by Israel to alter the demographics of the territories under its control.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jun 10 - 06:57 AM

Look, I said I DID NOT support the blockde.

Israel does let some aid in. We know it is not enough, but they let it through to comply with the law.
Otherwise none Don. Right?

If the attacks on Israel stopped, would the flow of aid be likely to increase or decrease?
If the soldier was shown to be OK, would it be likely to increase or decrease?

And if they stopped calling for the destruction of Israel....

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Jun 10 - 06:06 AM

""Israel ought to be nice in return, but they choose to be only as nice as the law demands.""

When was the last time that Israel gave a damn about what the law demands?

That's what this damn row, the rockets, and the election of Hamas is all about.Israel started, as you put it, "not being nice to the Gazans" decades ago, not last month.

Have you no humanity at all?

This is a population struggling to survive the illegal attentions of a vastly stronger neighbour (both numerically, and militarily).

Had the Germans managed to invade this country, your type would have been first in line to use on them the selfsame tactics which you decry, when used against your Israeli pals.

And I will refrain from responding to the above epithet in kind. You can just read my mind, to find out what I think of you.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 30 Jun 10 - 06:04 AM

Which 'law' demands Gaza be turned into an open air prison and its citizens be metered out collective punishment Keith?

Under the United Nations charter states have the right to self-defense, (jus ad bellum) but defensive actions should not exceed necessity.
States may deter future assaults aggressively, but they're not supposed to launch a counterattack that's radically incommensurate with the actual threat.

International humanitarian law takes into account the legitimate military imperatives of warring parties.
There is no justification for perpetrating serious violations of IHL.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jun 10 - 06:03 AM

Sometimes aid can't get through because Gazans attack the crossing points.
Why do they do that?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jun 10 - 05:34 AM

I am not supporting the blockade Emma, but why do the Gazan's expect Israel to be nice to them when they are so nasty to Israel?
They elect to government a party dedicated to the destruction of Israel.
They launch rockets at Israeli civillians.
They hold a soldier prisoner without Red Crescent visits for years.

Israel ought to be nice in return, but they choose to be only as nice as the law demands.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 30 Jun 10 - 05:21 AM

"They argue that they let in enough essentials to cover it.
It is debated."

'Debated' by who?

"The idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger," senior Israeli government advisor Dov Weisglass explained in 2006.

According to the UN's Food and Agriculture Organisation says 61% of Gazans are "food insecure".
The UN agency for Palestinian refugees, Unrwa, reports that 80% of Gazan households rely on some kind of food aid.


Aid agencies operating in Gaza say they have largely been able to continue to transport basic supplies such as flour and cooking oil into the territory.

Unrwa provides food aid for 750,000 people, half the population.
However, its food distribution has been suspended several times since June 2007 as a result of border closures or fuel shortages

These rations provide about two-thirds of dietary needs, and so need to be supplemented by dairy products, meat, fish and fresh fruit and vegetables. Some of these items are grown locally, some allowed in from Israel, and some were smuggled in through tunnels under the Egypt-Gaza border.

But after Operation Cast Lead and its devastating effect on infrastructure Palestinian Bureau of Statistics estimate unemployment at 38.6% in early 2010; some Gazans cannot afford the basics, even if they are physically available.

Even before the Israeli military operation in December and January 2009 disrupted food aid transfer and distribution significantly, as well as causing what the UN FAO estimates at $180m of damage to the agricultural sector ....

A UN survey in 2008 found more than half Gaza's households had sold their disposable assets and were relying on credit to buy food, three-quarters of Gazans were buying less food than in the past, and almost all were eating less fresh fruit, vegetables and animal protein to save money.

ACCORDING TO THE WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION, ONE THIRD OF CHILDREN UNDER FIVE AND WOMEN OF CHILDBEARING AGE ARE ANAEMIC.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jun 10 - 03:59 AM

Yes, but the legality is not clear.
They argue that they let in enough essentials to cover it.
It is debated.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jun 10 - 03:45 AM

"but it also tells us that those blockades must meet humanitarian standards to be lawful."
Humanitarianism isn't the word that spring to mind when the blockade of Gaza by Israel is discussed - now where did I put that list of banned items?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jun 10 - 02:14 AM

Jim, here is one expert debating the legality.
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/law/article7142055.ece