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No man's land protest

DigiTrad:
NO MAN'S LAND
NO MAN'S LAND (3)
NOBODY'S MOGGY'S LAND (No Moggy's Land)
WILLIE MCBRIDE'S REPLY


Related threads:
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Lyr Req: Green fields of france PARODY (27)
No Man's Land/willie McBride-rap version? (89)
Info: No Man's Land (Eric Bogle) (46)
Lyr Req: Willie MacBride's Answer to Finbar Furey (11)
Greenfields of France parody... (34)
Alternative lyrics to 'Willie McBride -Flower (7)
Green Fields of France (48)
Lyr Req: Green Fields of France Parody (14)
Lyr/Chords Req: Green Fields of France (Engli (26)
Lyr/Chords Req: No Man's Land (15)
Lyr Req: Parody on Green Fields of France (26)
Lyr Req: Willy Mc Bride (41)
Lyr Req: Willie McBride (Parody) (6)
(origins) Green Fields of France (10)
Lyr Req: Green Fields of France^^^ (22)
Lyr Req: Willie Mc Bride's OTHER reply (2)
Lyr/Chords Req: green fields of france (4)
Lyr Req: no man's land parody (3)
Lyr Add: Willie McBride parody - new chorus (5)
Lyr Add: Not Willie McBride (7)
Lyr Add: The Green Fields of France (12)
Lyr Req: Parody of Willie McBride (21)
Lyr Req: Parody of Green Fields of France (5)
Lyr Req: Willie McBride / No Man's Land (5) (closed)
Chords for The Green Fields of France/No Mans (3)


The Sandman 09 Nov 14 - 05:45 AM
GUEST,Rahere 09 Nov 14 - 05:34 AM
The Sandman 09 Nov 14 - 05:22 AM
The Sandman 09 Nov 14 - 05:07 AM
GUEST,Blandiver (Astray) 09 Nov 14 - 05:02 AM
GUEST,Allan Conn 09 Nov 14 - 05:00 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Nov 14 - 04:33 AM
GUEST,Blandiver (Astray) 09 Nov 14 - 04:01 AM
GUEST,Rahere 08 Nov 14 - 06:52 PM
GUEST,Morris-ey 08 Nov 14 - 01:59 PM
GUEST,Allan Conn 08 Nov 14 - 01:58 PM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 08 Nov 14 - 01:19 PM
Bonzo3legs 08 Nov 14 - 01:05 PM
Jack Campin 08 Nov 14 - 12:34 PM
Musket 08 Nov 14 - 12:29 PM
GUEST,Rahere 08 Nov 14 - 12:27 PM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 08 Nov 14 - 12:09 PM
MGM·Lion 08 Nov 14 - 11:57 AM
The Sandman 08 Nov 14 - 11:55 AM
Bill D 08 Nov 14 - 11:43 AM
Tattie Bogle 08 Nov 14 - 11:40 AM
GUEST,Fred McCormick 08 Nov 14 - 11:38 AM
GUEST,Fred McCormick 08 Nov 14 - 11:11 AM
GUEST,Allan Conn 08 Nov 14 - 10:52 AM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 08 Nov 14 - 10:19 AM
GUEST,John Foxen 08 Nov 14 - 07:53 AM
Acorn4 08 Nov 14 - 07:45 AM
The Sandman 08 Nov 14 - 05:54 AM
GUEST,Desi C 08 Nov 14 - 05:11 AM
Musket 08 Nov 14 - 04:50 AM
GUEST,DTM 07 Nov 14 - 07:12 PM
GUEST,Tattie Bogle 07 Nov 14 - 07:09 PM
GUEST,Morris-ey 07 Nov 14 - 06:07 PM
GUEST,Rahere 07 Nov 14 - 05:17 PM
The Sandman 07 Nov 14 - 02:29 PM
GUEST,Rahere 07 Nov 14 - 02:19 PM
The Sandman 07 Nov 14 - 01:16 PM
The Sandman 07 Nov 14 - 12:45 PM
Backwoodsman 07 Nov 14 - 12:14 PM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 07 Nov 14 - 11:06 AM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 07 Nov 14 - 10:46 AM
GUEST 07 Nov 14 - 10:45 AM
GUEST,HiLo 07 Nov 14 - 10:33 AM
Jack Campin 07 Nov 14 - 10:17 AM
GUEST,Howard Jones 07 Nov 14 - 09:59 AM
GUEST,HiLo 07 Nov 14 - 09:53 AM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 07 Nov 14 - 09:29 AM
Musket 07 Nov 14 - 09:17 AM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 07 Nov 14 - 08:15 AM
GUEST,Allan Conn 07 Nov 14 - 07:44 AM
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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 05:45 AM

Rahere
furthermore if my parents had not fought against Hitler in the second world war, I would not be here to post, remembrance day services are not about promoting militarism ,neither is the BritishLegion about promoting militarism it is about remembering those who died and caring for ex servicemen, which is why the last verse of the song should be included.
People like Jack Campin and yourself who try to promote an extreme opinion "The British Legion promotes militarism" are not helping this campaign to get the missing verse included.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 05:34 AM

No, I still feel that's a bit complacent, Jim.
Those of us who disagree don't stuff our message down everybody's throats with an incessant barrage of propaganda for months on end. Is it really news that this year like every one for close on a hundred past the Army's having an amble down Whitehall and civic dignitaries are closing roads down for miles around in London? Instead, we have to justify our criticisms in things like the thread on Oh! What a Lovely War! when the facts are there in black and white.
For fifty years, my peers and our predecessors brought the politicians of Europe together to learn that jaw jaw is better than war war. However, the big-heads thought they could do it themselves, and in a bare ten years have returned us to the condition where, in Gorbachev's words, "Failure to achieve security in Europe would make the continent irrelevant in world affairs," because it is becoming "an arena of political upheaval, of competition for the spheres of influence, and finally of military conflict."
This is NOT the legacy we left the European Commission. Instead of mutual cooperation and respect, their infighting has set us back forty years. And that is the fruit of those Don Maclean described, "They are not listening, they're not listening still. Perhaps they never will."

So, when in twenty years time we're at war once more within Europe, remember this from someone who was entrusted to keep and hold the peace, and did so: although it is necessary to prepare for war if you wish to maintain it, taking that as a justification for war is a betrayal of the objective. I don't give a monkeys who's causing it, trying to see whose balls are the bigger simply reduces the world to a bunch of fucking simians - or worse, because even Bonobos use negotoiation to resolve their problems. Perhaps Cameron and Merkel should be locked in a room together with nothing but aphrodisiacs in the ventilation.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 05:22 AM

"So no, I'm not buying your mealy-mouthed attempt to define the question in the RBL's own terms"
mealy mouthed?,if you dont like mealy mouthed, here we go, you are a feckin misinformed ignoramus, the british legion does not promte militrism our elected politicians do that plus the army recruiting organisations , the British legion sole purpose is to look after exservicemen, REMEMBRANCE DAY SERVICES ARE NOT ATTEMPTS TO PROMOTE MILITARISM, they are about rembering those who died in wars.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 05:07 AM

"You said it - "No-man's Land at least has a chance of appealing to the majority of people - divested of its cultish anti-war 'message'" - sanitised, in other words.
but how is it different from Sharps Sanitisation
here we go, Sharps bowdlerisation worked however because he got the songs into primary schools, all of us sang them until they were taken out of the school curriculum in the 1960s, so they were popularised and we did go onto find the original versions.
if the song is sung at rembrance day parades etc, there is a chance that some people might stumble across the original, however if a campaign is maintained and pressure is put upon the British legion TO RE INCLUDE THE MISSING VERSE, and they do so that would be even better,which is why i have signed the petition, yours Dick Miles[Talentless Moron]


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Blandiver (Astray)
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 05:02 AM

to make sure it doesn't happen again and the best way to do that is to keep reminding ourselves of what happened and why

It will happen again, Jim - again, and again, and again - and for the very best & worst of reasons as we struggle towards some ultimate enlightenment where we might, at last, live in peace. Until such a time (someway off yet I fear!) be respectful of the sacrifice of those to whom we owe our present freedoms, however so imperfect they may be.

Far lass comfortable than paying lip-service with a poppy, minnd you

The ultimate comfort is the mawkish sentiment of the anti-war songs under discussion here; it's a sucky-blanket dream that belittles the horror of war by denying its terrible reality. It will not be washed away by the crocodile tears of a dozen or so peacenik folkies in their self-appointed moral superiority, for its measure is the millennia of aching sorrow that such sacrifice was not only necessary but risen to. That's why I wear a poppy. A simple gesture to a reality I cannot begin to comprehend.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 05:00 AM

Thanks for the correction Rahere but I take it you get the point I was making to the other poster. Blandiver how can you possibly know what any of the William McBrides buried in the war graves would have thought about Bogle's sentiment after they had experienced the horrors of the war? You are simply projecting your own views on to someone else who may or may have not been a specific person. Bogle at least in the song gives his views and wonders what the soldier would think. You've already seem to have made up your mind that you know what the soldier thinks.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 04:33 AM

You said it - "No-man's Land at least has a chance of appealing to the majority of people - divested of its cultish anti-war 'message'" - sanitised, in other words.
Bogle wrote it because he is against war and (presumably) finds W.W.1 the obscenity most of us do - what a bastard eh - how dare he interfere with our entertainment!!!
The best way to "hold sacred the memories of those who gave their lives" (for whatever reason) is to make sure it doesn't happen again, and the best way to do that is to keep reminding ourselves of what happened and why
Far lass comfortable than paying lip-service with a poppy, minnd you
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Blandiver (Astray)
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 04:01 AM

I love the cries of Sacrilege! here. Personally I've always found the song pretty sacrilegious in itself (see this classic piece of 'catlore in which I was rounded upon for daring to express this heresy back in 2012: No-man's Land - Rap Version). Divested of its cultish anti-war 'message', No-man's Land at least has a chance of appealing to the majority of people for whom the reality of war has been an unfortunate necessity of human culture across the millennia, as the history books will attest. Militarism is an integral aspect of that reality, replete with its own tradition and folklore, thus most of us can wear our poppy with pride - with thanks to the likes of Willie McBride; military men who gave their lives in a good faith that remains sacred. He would, no doubt, be appalled to find his name disrespected by peacenik songwriters. The rest is, quite simply, unsayable.

My choice of Remembrance Sunday folksongs will be Peter Bellamy singing his setting of Kipling's My Boy Jack followed by Dick Gaughan's epic rendering of Hamish Henderson's The 51st (Highland) Division's Farewell to Sicily. Chances are I'll have Shirley & Dolly Collins' Plains of Waterloo in there too.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 08 Nov 14 - 06:52 PM

There is no soldier buried at the Cenotaph, the word is a construction from Greek bits meaning "empty grave". Whether they mean by that the occupant was an avatar of Jesus, or if it is simply waiting for a suitable occupant, I don't know. The grave of the unknown warrior is in Westminster Abbey, and scattered over the world.
As far as Morris-ey's concerned, nobody's telling you not to buy your poppies. What we're pointing out is that alongside it is a rather nasty package which we should have long outgrown, and that as ever our government says one thing and does another. The day we bow to such sanctimoniousness is the day we cease to be English.
And for the smile, in Afghanistan they object to people planting poppies: here, the Telegraph mythologises David and Samantha Cameron planting "the last 2 poppies" whilst round the corner, people were still being flogged them at £25 a pop to plant their own little bit on glory. Not to mention what he's up to in this picture...


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Morris-ey
Date: 08 Nov 14 - 01:59 PM

The point is it does not matter who sings what or how. This is "the" song and there is nothing you can do about it.

If I were the British Legion I would tell all the whingers to feck off, shove their mean spirited petition up their sanctimonious arses, and let those who choose to make a donation or to buy the tune to do so in peace.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 08 Nov 14 - 01:58 PM

Fred there were various William McBrides who died in the war. Several of whom died in 1916. None of the gravestones match the details in the song as can be checked on the Commonwealth War Graves site. The grave you mention doesn't name his as William as it only has an initial and doesn't mention what age he is. As far as I have read Bogle wrote the song in a hotel room in Germany whilst touring with Hamish Imlach. He was probably doing it from memory but for some reason had remembered the name William McBride (perhaps simply because it rhymed with graveside) so don't you think rather than the song being about one actual idividual it is more likely to be about all the fallen. As per the unnamed warrior at the Cenotaph? The details in the song probably have more to do with what rhymed and scanned rather than hard facts!


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Nov 14 - 01:19 PM

F@ck knows why I'm doing this but I've listened to so many versions of this song since yesterday
my mind is starting to play odd tricks...

I'm now starting to get earworm resonances of "The Unicorn" by The Bachelors, Terry Jacks "Seasons In The Sun"
and weirdest and most inexplicable of all, Shirley Bassey's "Kiss me honey honey (kiss me)"...!!!???

Hmmm.. is there an upbeat calypso version of "No Man's Land"...???

I think I need a break for a mug of tea....


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 08 Nov 14 - 01:05 PM

Great record and great guitar solo - hard life innit!!!!!


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Jack Campin
Date: 08 Nov 14 - 12:34 PM

And guess who's got their ad showing on the Mudcat index page.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Musket
Date: 08 Nov 14 - 12:29 PM

Yo Tattie Bogle. Reading some posts, I admit I was looking for fault. Your comment seemed to stand out. If I took it out of context I apologise.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 08 Nov 14 - 12:27 PM

GSS
You've not defined what militarism is, if you disagree with mine. When you stage parades and pretty uniforms and prey on emotions with brass bands in as blatant a way as this sets out to, then you have a responsibility for creating an image which is not that of the reality of soldiering, which is predominantly boredom and bullshit interrupted by periods of huge pressure. Once upon a time, that last was expressed in terms of fugue, as terror or worse. But now we train our troops not to give in to the red fog of war or simple terror, and that requires a certain intelligence. The problem is that the RBL approach is predicated in the days before this was true, when conscripted men of whatever rank only did what they were instructed to by an officer, whose first lesson was actually the opposite of the practice, that their best adviser was their platoon sergeant. Nowadays you'll not infrequently find that's been simplified, with sergeants actually commanding platoons and on occasion RSMs commanding battalions. The best man does the job and we no longer allow forelock-tugging. And so what the RBL does is now counter-productive.

The modern military requires men and women who are honest to themselves as an essential core element of their very nature. The old days of drill sergeants whipping up hysteria before teaching killing have gone, a soldier who kills must know why. He must be ready to act as needed at the right time, and that can mean being ready to kill instantly - but it also means being ready to hold one's hand, and to be able to differentiate between the two needs. He's bound by written Rules of Engagement, and is held to them.

Yes, an essential element of soldiering is a search to be the best, and that starts in drill, in having one's kit in good and proper order at any time and in precise control of oneself. It builds a core for a correct response when the pressure comes on, in things like the standard form of orders, so you can function as a commander when you're at your limit, when you've had no sleep for three days and you're on the edge of breakdown as a result. The training teaches you where those limits lie, and how to not go past them, either in yourself or in those under you.

But that is a matter of professionalism, and it needs not stop with the military. When I joined WEU as a senior civilian officer, we were upgrading from a dipolomatic thinktank, and the question arose within the civilian staff what their role working with the military HQ we built alongside us could be. I taught them that their job was every whit as essential as the military planners, that they should not think to be any less than them, lest by that weakness they create the gap by which someone is killed. That is a huge difference from the MOD, and a bigger one still from the 9-5ers the EU put into our jobs when they thought they could do better. Never once was the question even hinted at about worrying about working hours, the job was only done when it was done, and WEU's theoretically non-executive grades routinely carried the responsibilities and authority of an executive grade. Heck, for most of the time I as senior accountant was one, and I'd never have it any different! Just the same as in the Forces, we were the best and knew it by proving it every day. And simply demonstrating that you're not a slovenly rabble doesn't count in my book, Europe is full of toy soldiers, who find it difficult to make it stick when it matters. The RBL encourages the former, not the latter.

So no, I'm not buying your mealy-mouthed attempt to define the question in the RBL's own terms. It's an anachronism, and the bluster shows it. At least the return parades for forces coming back from campaign don't shoehorn them into that in the way they did when I was one of them, no sudden need to bull boots last attended to months or years before, you take us as we are and no other.

However, that does not deal with what we have here. The real reason for this hoo-hah is to make our political leaders look good by wrapping themselves in a form of Patriotism they've rarely earned. I make a specific exception for the 50 who have done their time, but only one Minister is among their number, Ian Duncan Smith: in the Labour Government which took us to war, not a single Cabinet Minister had served.

The only other reason for these pretty parades is tourism. My Dad used to beg to go to the Royal Marines barracks at Eastleigh "to see the soldiers jump", nigh on a hundred years ago. Kids will be kids, and throng the streets of London for the Lord Mayors Show, much the same. But we need adults, not kids, and we do not have time to build that kind of self-awarenesss.

Our Continental cousins wonder about us in this militarism - I know because I worked with them and had to explain it. We still live in a world where the Germans are castigated three genrations after the Nazis left power, and where we seem to wallow in mawkish necrophilia only beaten by the Victorian fascination with death - they at least had some excuse for it. Is this some kind of death-wish, or a paranoid fascination with the dead, the way mountains of flowers appear near newsworthy death, but not near an ordinary death? Or is it a form of desperately seeking one's fifteen minutes of fame by surrogacy?

We see today war widows getting something they were promised but which a good number did not receive. Yet it's spun as a huge victory for them, whereas the Treasury has got away with NOT granting it to those who gave up waiting, it's not backdated, leaving one wondering whether the Armed Forces Covenant is worth the paper it's written on. And anything which allows the political world to look good under those circumstances is to be castigated. Tonight they'll all be on parade in the RBL Festival of Remembrance in the Albert Hall, and tomorrow the Cenotaph, mostly . I've just looked up the running order: Pointless Celebrities. Strictly Come Dancing. Doctor Who. National Lottery Live RBL Festival of Remembrance. News. Match of the Day. The first summed it up, I fear, and Joss Stone is one of the most pointless.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Nov 14 - 12:09 PM

The wiki for "No Man's Land" lists approx 60 official recorded cover versions...

Then there's who knows's how many amateur youtube attempts..

If I was a seriously good singer contemplating doing my own version,
I'd consider it my 'duty' to research as many existing recordings as possible
to get a feel for what works, and what dilutes or destroys the intent of the song.

My suspicion is that most of those recordings may be over reverential hackneyed plodding dirges..

At the end of the research process, I might end up so sick of the song
I'd give up and just walk away from it.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Nov 14 - 11:57 AM

"why do you think it so odd to suggest she wrote her own song?"

.,,.

The simple answer to that is that she is a singer, not a writer. A few people manage to be both: but there is nor earthly reason that the talents should go together in any particular individual; and indeed they rarely do.

So the suggestion that she should do so is, with all respect, IMO a little silly. Might as well suggest that Enrico Caruso should have written his own operas.

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Nov 14 - 11:55 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGzLlTYgv-E


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Nov 14 - 11:43 AM

Somewhere about late 1977, I heard June Tabor's version played on the folk program in Wash DC. I was transfixed.... various local people learned it, and it was sung reverently around here on special occasions, with only minor alterations that simply reflected different singers' ideas of pace and emphasis. It was a fine, moving song which, no matter what one thinks about 'accuracy' or exact title.

Naturally, it became an obvious vehicle for other recording 'artists' to take a ride on, and it's almost de rigueur for many to "make a song your own".....well, maybe... for some songs. Bogle's intent, as he makes clear, has been severely distorted in many recent versions. But he also realizes it is far beyond his control now. The list of songs which have been atrociously mangled is longer than any of our arms...(I have 70 versions of "Hard Times Come Again No More" ... a few of which are good, a few decent.... and many that make me go "Huh?")

The Men They Couldn't Hang don't 'get' the tune... which changes the feel of the song. The Dropkick Murphys come closer to MY taste, but still pace it awkwardly and do a few odd things to the melody in places. So? At least they don't sanitize the message and change the basic intent. If the song is intended for an audience which may have no knowledge of the original, why not just write a new song that says what they wish? Oh- right... talent & ability andde gustibus non disputandum.

There's little that can be done except to occasionally sing it closer to the way Bogle intended and try to expose offenders to 'other' recorded versions. Those who get it will ...get it... and perhaps do better afterwards. Petitions are probably a waste of time in these cases, but *shrug*... a little publicity might raise a few consciousnesses.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 08 Nov 14 - 11:40 AM

Musket, I entirely agree with you about the people whom one might not want to hear singing that song: I have also experienced the "heart sink" feeling referred to by DTM when certain people start singing it in a session. As for Joss Stone: even if she had done all the verses, it is pretty unlikely that she would have done it in "folkie style". I was not suggesting that only Eric Bogle could sing it, nor that anyone else who did should slavishly copy his style: but as others have said, there are only so many good versions out there (all a matter of taste, I know, as to what is "good"!)
And as for writing her own song: I saw a TV interview with her by the sea of poppies at the Tower of London, where she was saying how emotional she found it. Plenty of other people have written their own songs about WW1, from my great-grandfather who served with the Gordon Highlanders in France, to myself, and many others in between: so why do you think it so odd to suggest she wrote her own song??


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 08 Nov 14 - 11:38 AM

I've just taken another look at the Eric Bogle Youtube video. To add insult to injury, it was preceded by an advert for the Joss Stone version, followed by a banner proclaiming the JS as the "official" British Legion single for 2014.

Somebody questioned whether William McBride really existed. The Bogle video shows his gravestone. It says he was a member of the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers, Army no 21406, and that he died on 10th February 1916. That is all. It doesn't his birth date, but Eric could have got that from other sources.

The point is that he was another living sensate human being, who was cut down at the tender age of 19, for no more reason than he wore an army uniform, and that the powers that be on both sides regarded him and his kind as just another piece of cannon fodder. He now lies in mute silent witness to the horror and obscenity not just of the first world war, but of all the wars that have happened since.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 08 Nov 14 - 11:11 AM

FWIW, I don't think No Man's Land is one of Bogle's best, but that's not the point. Neither is the appalling lash up which constitutes the vocal and the arrangement.

What is not beside the point is that the BL, or which ever record producer they appointed, took a song which is pointedly and uncompromising anti-miltarist, and ripped the guts out of it. They turned an anti-war song into an apology for war and that is unforgiveable.

I've just given a FWIW, so here's a BTW. I've read Eric Bogle's thoughts on the matter (see above) and can only say that he is being a lot more magnanimous than I would have been under similar circumstances. But I wonder what he makes of that blackboard slogan at the end of the video; the one which says one million men and women from Britain and the British Empire died in the first world war. I couldn't agree more. It is an appalling statistic. But what about all the other people; the other allied forces and the men and women on the opposing side?

Like the poet said, "All soldiers look the same in the grave".


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 08 Nov 14 - 10:52 AM

"Not a very good song in the first place" Everyone has their own opinions and taste right enough but as a songwriter by hobby I just want to say that I'd love to come up with a song that "not good"


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Nov 14 - 10:19 AM

I'll suggest for your consideration...

Very few singers, including Eric Bogle, can perform a genuinely captivating heartfelt rendition of this song
because it is long and melodically repetitious.
It'll take a very special singer to overcome these difficulties.....???

Despite it's intended "powefull anti war message",
maybe it's not a very good song in the first place.
Not a lot of 'protest songs were ever actually musically any good ???.
Perhaps most were better read, debated, and chanted in unison on protest marches
than listened to for entertainment..???


Still, carry on getting your saggy old thermal long johns in an over exagerated twist if you must do.....


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,John Foxen
Date: 08 Nov 14 - 07:53 AM

I managed to listen to about three lines of "And it's Hi Ho Willie McBride and away we go".
The petition is a waste of time to my personal protest will be to send the British Legion the price of the CD along with a letter saying I couldn't gear to buy this egregious piece of shite but I do support the work the Legion does in helping those who have been injured and families bereaved due to the misguided military adventures of British governments.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Acorn4
Date: 08 Nov 14 - 07:45 AM

Two issues here:-

The actual quality of the singing/arrangement.

The issue of leaving out/changing the lyrics/message.

The second is the most important.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Nov 14 - 05:54 AM

in my opinion The British Legion are a charity that look after ex servicemen, the people that promote militarism Are many of the the elected politicians,and on occasions the uk government, the British Legion are a charity that look after ex ervicemen, they do not recruit people to join the army do they? rahere please answer that question, do they recruit people to join the army.
I have signed the petition.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 08 Nov 14 - 05:11 AM

I agree the omossion of the last verse is ofensive. But more importantly, as a piece of music I find it somewhere between a hair shampoo ad and a car crash, in other words, abysmla!


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Musket
Date: 08 Nov 14 - 04:50 AM

I wasn't twisting it Tattiie Bogle. I picked up, in context, your claim that Joss Stone should write her own. That logic purely for her? Why can't she sing it but a retired social worker with a voice as flat as a fart and his finger in his ear can stand up in a pub and hope everybody is impressed? Not her greatest work for that matter, but I have heard it sung badly far more often than good. I wasn't too impressed with hindsight with my own rendition at a folk club last week.

I suppose one of the saddest parts of this is that two musicians, a singer and a guitarist I greatly admire have released what is, artistically, about the worst day in the recording studio they have had.

That's apart from any debate over RBL motives, belittling a powerful message in a powerful song or copyright cum royalities debate.

You know how Mudcat webpages have "in context" ads? Well mine the other day invited me to download it from iTunes........


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,DTM
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 07:12 PM

Just watched the Joss Stone video. Couldn't make it till the end.
Sacrilege.
Stone Joss.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Tattie Bogle
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 07:09 PM

Musket: you have chosen to quote only part of what I said re the Joss Stone version: in the rest of my post I acknowledged that there are people other than Eric Bogle who CAN do justice to this song - but that they may be in the minority of those who attempt it. Nothing odd about that.
Several people have mentioned June Tabor's singing of it, which is excellent. (And others have mentioned Sandy Denny and Maddy Prior)
NOWHERE did I say that ONLY the composer of a song should be the only person to sing it, Stop twisting things!
This version is just horrible (not just omitting verses, but the so-called "musical" arrangement.
And not seeking Eric's permission is indefensible.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Morris-ey
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 06:07 PM

Eric does not seem so bothered that he will not accept the royalties. He certainly does not, imho, suggest he feels he is being "shafted".

As to your personal opinion of the British Legion I can say nothing.

The fact is that it is a registered charity with aims to help ex-members of the armed services.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 05:17 PM

Yes, GSS, it was posted above. Eric doesn't have much choice but to put up with it, but his being shafted doesn't alter the fundamental point that what the RBL did was thoroughly dishonest. Much like claiming what they are about isn't militaristic. I don't see any other group parading with flags and military bands - not even the BNP get away with that lot.

There is no identity or even parity between being of the military and being militaristic. The difference is one of role in society: a militarist wants the military to be given superiority, a military man should, these days, recognise that military power being a continuation of government policy by other means, then he is a servant of society. The quid pro quo recognised in the Armed Forces Covenant is that as the veteran (of which I am one) has set his normal rights aside in the interest of that service, then if there are consequences, he should receive compensating priority, which sadly isn't actually happening, yet again.

In WWII, for good reasons, the military were giiven priority, and many of them were utterly unable to give up the power afterwards. Those of us of the post-war generation all knew "the Major", claiming a rank he was no longer entitled to (only an Admiral of the Fleet, Field Marshall or Air Marshall never retires, and on retirement an officer returns to civilian life with the titles he has earned). The RBL gives veterans an excessive sense of privilege, as if being in the military always and in everything entitles them to rule the roost. That's not the kind of nation I want, it's not the kind of democracy I signed up to defend, and although it's far from true of all, it's true of enough as to make any sense of charity from my side somewhat limited. For me, the military's finest hour was when Cromwell overturned the whole house of cards, Monarchy, corrupt parliament and all - and refused to become a king himself. The military must be the servant of the Nation, and not of whatever demiurge has last dreamed up the megalomanic idea that "I am the State and the State is me".
One of the things which makes the UK distinctive is that the Monarchy has actually found a way to be a figurehead without falling into that trap. It's still not true of much of the Mad in Chelsea bunch, who haven't got the message that privilege is earned, not inherited. Thankfully that's no longer true of the military, where the commanders of small units (and on occasion even larger ones) these days are as likely to have risen from the ranks as to bear a direct commission. Consequently, there is hope for the RBL, it s slowly unbending (for example in the question of Poppy Fascism) but the speed and will is still far from what should attract our admiration.
And as we have seen, sometimes they just don't get it.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 02:29 PM

What Eric bogle wrote in its entirety via fRoots:

Apparently Joss Stone's version of my song "No Man's Land" has polarised opinions. I usually don't comment publicly on other people's versions of my songs, but many of you have e-mailed me about this matter and seem genuinely upset about it, so I am sending you the following in reply to some of the questions I have been asked………please note that I will be entering into no further correspondence regarding this matter, I don't want to spend the rest of my life e-mailing on my computer, so you will have to accept (or reject ) what I have said below and leave it there…….! ! The copyright for "No Man's Land/The Green Fields of France" is held by my UK Publisher,! Domino Publishing, who are ultimately responsible for approving applications to record this song. When an artist wishes to record "No Man's Land" they must apply for a mechanical license to do so from the relevant UK agency, and pay a licensing fee. Permission to record is more or less automatic, especially if, as is the case with this song, it has been recorded before. At no stage in this process am I, the composer, involved. Generally speaking, the first I know of any new recording is when I see any subsequent royalties from the recording appearing on my royalty statements. ! !
When the artist(s) in question records the cover version of the song, they can, and often do, rework ! the song as to be almost unrecognisable from the original version. This is especially true in Jazz music, and is generally regarded as an acceptable creative exercise by the artist(s). Although! the publisher and/or composer could take legal action if they feel that the original essence of the song has been irrevocably altered and very much to the song's detriment, this very rarely happens. The bottom line is that so long as royalties are paid, any wounded artistic feelings are usually put aside.! !
So then, to the most asked questions about this affair:! !!
Was my permission sought when they decided to record this song? - No! !!
Did I know what they proposed to do with the song when they decided to record it? - No! !!
Do I approve of what they have done to the song ? (missing verses, rock'n'roll arrangement, etc) !
No, believe it or not I wrote the song intending for the four verses of the original song to gradually build up to what I hoped would be a climactic and strong anti-war statement. Missing out two and a half verses from the original four verses very much negates that intention. As to the musical arrangement, it's really about whatever floats your musical boat. I would have thought a strong mostly acoustic version would have done a better job of getting the message across, but that's just my personal preference, and I'm a bit of an old fart folkie. But then to do an acoustic version and include all four verses and choruses would have made the song nearly 7 minutes long, making it of doubtful commercial appeal in today's modern music market, given that the average attention span of that market's consumers is rarely more than three minutes or so. There's not much doubt that the shortened, up-tempo, bluesy version that Joss does will probably appeal to a much broader cross-section of the listening public, certainly to those who did not know the song existed until they heard Joss's version. ! !
Is the strong anti-war message in the original song diminished in this recording? Yes, missing some crucial verses does not help. But then this diminishment is only in the eyes (or ears) of people who have heard the original version of the song. Those who have not heard the original cannot make the same comparisons or judgements. They must take Joss's version on it's own merits and make their own interpretation. ! !
Does it follow then that this version glorifies war instead of condemning it? - No, in my opinion it certainly doesn't glorify it, but doesn't condemn it either, it just sort of starts off promisingly enough and then turns into a sing- along chorus type of song. Sentimentalising perhaps, but not glorifying.! !!
Will me or my publisher be suing Joss Stone, Jeff Beck or the British Legion? — No, you have to be joking. I would have wished for a version of my song that could have been more true to my original intention in writing the song, but if Joss's version touches heart or two here and there and makes some people reflect, perhaps for the first time, on the true price of war, then her version is as valid as anyone else's."


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 02:19 PM

GSS
And how does nicking someone's work, perverting his message and intent without the minimal courtesy of asking his permission first fit into that? Oh yes, because some of the military got a decided liking for doing that wholesale, pushing other people around for any reason and none, "because there's a war on", and cannot let it go. It's part of what's called militarism.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 01:16 PM

The Royal British Legion (RBL), sometimes referred to as the The British Legion or The Legion, is a British charity providing financial, social and emotional support to members and veterans of the British Armed Forces, their families and dependants.
i fail to see how that can be interpreted as promoting militarism.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 12:45 PM

jack campin, the british legion is the home of many folk clubs,and provides a stable and friendly environment for many folk clubs it might make you puke,
but shall i tell you something, you make me puke much more, you asked for a personal attack upon me[ which had been removed] to be re posted., that is a really nasty thing to do
the british legion has inadvertently given much publicity to a folk song, they are not much different from some folk song collectors [ eg sharp ] who popularised edited folk songs.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 12:14 PM

"A pint of strong local drought cider"

LOL! A bit of an unintended funny there, PFR? 😆👍


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 11:06 AM

.. having said that.....

About 15 years ago on a visit to Taunton, we thought we'd give their club a try for an evening pint..

We were stopped in our tracks by a closed security door and intercom system. [maybe even CCTV cameras?]
The jobsworth in charge refused to accept our memberships & credentials**
as valid enough, so refused to let us in...???

[**Me being ex civil service, and my dad ex airforce national service]

Seemed a right bunch of touchy snobs.. maybe they were officers ???

Then again, with the barracks near town, maybe they were over paranoid, and we looked too much like undesirables...???

But that was Taunton...


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 10:46 AM

"The British Legion is a publicity machine for militarism, and its primary function for 100 years has been to turn warfare into a state religion"

fair enough.. but you tell me any other state religion where I could have bought a pint of strong local drought cider
and a bag of scratchings for less than a quid..

Shame our local club was closed down...

It was friendly and welcoming...

Don't think I ever saw a single fight there...

In fact quite a safe environment for lefty pacifists like me & the mrs...


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 10:45 AM

What a fuss over nothing, I feel strongly that some parties have been hyping this up to further their own agenda, Stop the War as mentioned above being an obvious one. There was an edited version of Eric Bogle's response circulated on Facebook by fRoots which clearly seemed to have selectively quoted to make him seem wronged and upset about it.

It's pretty clear from Eric Bogle's FULL response that while he doesn't particularly care for this cover, and agrees it does dilute the original message somewhat, he DOESN'T take particular offence and DOESN'T view it as glorifying war... His final conclusion is "if Joss's version touches heart or two here and there and makes some people reflect, perhaps for the first time, on the true price of war, then her version is as valid as anyone else's"

Is all this grubbing around to find a stick to beat the RBL with really a noble cause?


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 10:33 AM

I just cannot believe some of the ignorance and sheer ugliness posted here..unbelievable .I have known many veterans in my time and have known not one who glorified war. I am just appalled at some of the above comments.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 10:17 AM

If the Brit Legion has made any gross error of judgement, it's simply been to farm production of a charity record out to a mediocre jobbing creative team.

I doubt there is any error of judgment. The British Legion is a publicity machine for militarism, and its primary function for 100 years has been to turn warfare into a state religion. They knew exactly what they were doing; their only mistake was in thinking they could get away with it.

They make me want to puke and I'd never support them in any way.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 09:59 AM

Most people won't know the song in any form and will judge this version on its own merits. The song may be extremely well-known amongst folkies but most people won't have heard of it. This version is not my cup of tea but I dare say that plenty of people will like it, and that it will be a success on its own terms and will raise funds for the Legion.

Whilst Eric Bogle has said he and his publishers have no intention of suing, I think the BL has acted unethically by not seeking his approval. However I suspect this is more likely to be a cock-up than a conspiracy. They went to someone to commission a fund-raising song, and someone in the production company thought of this and trimmed it, either to deliberately change the meaning or simply to reduce the length. I suspect it was then presented to BL for approval, no one there knew the proper version and they accepted it at face value without question. They would have expected the production company to deal with copyright issues.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 09:53 AM

Testament of Youth is not a novel. It is the first instalment of Vera Brittain's Autobography.


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 09:29 AM

yeah.... dead odd...

they blather on at great length about the 'folk process'
then get almighty over protective and vengeful when anyone remotely young and modern
dares to tamper with a single word of one of their sacrosact 'folk songs'...?????


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Musket
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 09:17 AM

Oh, they are an odd minority PFR...

As it is on this thread, some are calling it a folk song. If it cropped up on another thread, the same people would claim it can't be a folk song because it falls foul of some absurd committee that sent out agendas and read out apologies in 1954, allegedley...

Twisting songs? I remember Bruce Springsteen fans getting pissed off when Reagan borrowed "Born in The USA" at Republican conventions, and Joe South's questioning anthem "Games people play" being used to advertise a celebrity magazine, and that's before butter manufacturers saw the value of "The Wild Rover" and Johnny Rotten.... Not to mention Liverpool Airport borrowing "Above us only Sky." (I liked that, on account of the God botherers stood outside arrivals with placards looking stupid.)

Some of the comments on this thread are rather strange and seem to deflect from the idea of altering a song to destroy what it was written for in the first place. It seems to be degenerating into a "it's our song not yours!" Playground politics....


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 08:15 AM

If the Brit Legion has made any gross error of judgement,
it's simply been to farm production of a charity record out to a mediocre jobbing creative team.

If you must accuse anyone, blame the hack freelance producers for insensiitive editing of this song.


Seriously, some mudcatters are just so desperate to find anything to complain about..
Especially if they can indulge in any excuse to hurl abuse at 'inferior' modern non folk based musical performances...

The UK folk scene surely harbours the oddest bunch of disgruntled resentful mean spirited
sanctimonious narrow minded fundamentalists....

... who really seem to know eff all about the real world of music and musicians...

well... that's the impression one might get from a sizable over vociferous minority...???


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Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 07:44 AM

Quite agree Howard. Bogle concedes that the song is probably too long for this purpose but I think if any verse was to be left out (so that the meaning of the song remains intact) then it should be the second verse. The first sets the scene whist the third and fourth are where the message of the song sits.


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